Sometimes a hero wears a cape. Sometimes heroes do science, and sometimes heroes have to put high prow officers in their place while learning how to be good commanders in the Napoleonic Wars and also having sex with a lot of women.
We're talking about Sharp, Richard Sharp, the star of British novels and then British TV shows that I've said we're BBC, they're actually I TV and it's Sean Bean in a series of basically TV movies that have a lot of great questions to ask about the Napoleonic Wars, about warfare, about class, about gender, and we're gonna talk about all of that with myself and Paul Happy right after this welcome back from Matthew host I am joined as somewhat regularly,
but still not an actual co host by any stretching the imagination. Paul Happy, Paul, how are we doing today? We're doing good. I mentioned on our last podcasts that we recorded podcast that we recorded very recently, like this morning, that that I didn't get a lot of sleep last night.
It's not because I stayed up watching more episodes of Sharp. I stayed up because I couldn't fall asleep and I realized I wasn't going to fall asleep, so I ended up watching another episode of Sharp, which is really a series of films. Yeah, it's it's funny because it's listed on the streaming service worth listed as having seasons, and I said this to Paul, and Paul was like, what do you mean seasons, because it was if you remember,
during PBS pledge drives, they would often show BBC stuff. That's where I watched I Claudius the first time. That's where I watched Faulty Towers a lot of other stuff. This Jordinaring a little bit later, and so I never caught it originally, but Paul had seen it, and it is first of all, so there's a series of novels about this character named Richard Sharp, who is based on a real character by the way, I don't get
into that in a little bit. And ITV, this British television station, basically made a series of movies but they were released on television, and I guess they kind of have like things that hold them together, so they're grouped in seasons. I think maybe they were released all the same year or something like that, but they're all about one an hour twenty two an hour forty.
They all have a fairly distinctive beginning, middle, and end, and then many of them pick like continue characters or continue plot lines from the other. But they're basically a series of standalone movies, and in this we're basically going to introduce you to the characters, the concepts, the ideas that are being discussed. Reference some things from I have seen the first five movies what
are listed online in season one? In season two, Paul has seen all of them at us well, most of them at various points, but some many many years ago, and read a lot of the books. We're gonna be talking about them in general. Some of these specific movies we may go into more detail about, but we'll give you to kind of a brief overview of what they're about. Who the characterist? What would you start with, Paul? What was it true to these novels and books? And were ones
that you suggested to me as things we can talk about. Yeah, So my mom goes through actor phases where basically she'll see something think an actor is fantastic in it, be correct, of course, because her acting taste is impeccable, and then watch literally everything that person has ever been in. And so she watched an adaptation of Clarissa, the Samuel Richardson novel and either the or one of the longest were books or novels in the English thing. It's
like a million words, like fifteen hundred pages. It's ridiculous. So they made a series of that. Even with all that words, this Clarissa does not explain at all. It's a different movie, different care right, Okay, yeah, so Sharp played Sharp. Sean Bean played the I guess villain antagonist in that Lovelace, right, And so then my mom started just watching
everything it was in, which included this Sharp series. And she had had this real interest in the Napoleonic Wars and and Napoleon I think more more specifically, probably less about the wars and more about you know, the other stuff
going on. But so so she was watching these and she and she was just like, I think you might like this, you know, and you know, we recorded them on VHS, as one did at the time in the This was probably like nineteen ninety seven, because when I remember really watching these was after I'd left college, which you know, I attended very briefly. I read more books in the next six months than I had read in the entirety of high school and college. And part of that was this where
I watched this series. I think it's a really good series, and it sparked an interest in like history generally, right and specifically, you know, I read all the novels that were available at the time, I believe. Then some more came out later that were about sort of backstory stuff, but I read all the main, you know, the core novels, and watched the entirety of the series as had been produced by then. I think May
of ninety seven is you know, spoilers. It's titled Sharp's Waterloo, right, and you know, as one who's heard anything about the Napoleonic Wars, that probably rings a bell. Maybe you're thinking about Abba, but generally it probably you know, gives you an indication what happens in the stories. Well, and even the first line of the Abba song says, ah at Waterloo Napoleon was did surrender? Right, So even if even if you're just an
Abba fan, you still know what we're talking about. And then they went and some in two thousand and six, which I do not believe I've seen, and those are there's like stuff that takes place in India, which I'm really curious to see how this character and the story plays in the British occupation of India, right, So I'm curious about that, but also kind of
afraid. You know, it's interesting because in this war, it's like if you had to ask me which side I would be on, Like I'm not a proponent of Napoleon and the you know, the French Empire becoming an empire and going in and invading a bunch of countries, but at the same time like overthrowing the monarchy, overthrowing you know, theocratic rule. Yeah, let's do that, you know. So so it's interesting. But you know, the series, I'd say it doesn't paint a picture of you know, Rah
rah rah Mary Old England. You know, it's like it's i think, very critical of a lot of things about the culture and about maybe not as much specifically the war itself, because I think, you know, thinking about this series and I'm like, yeah, is this the last like war that you know, the British can be like, yeah, yeah, we won that one, like we just we just won it, you know. Yeah.
I mean there's a number of other colonial wars they get to say that, Okay, for the well one that you can maybe feel good about the way, like saving Private Ryan. You know in the US people made that and we're like, ah, yeah, you know we this is a war that the US was fighting against the Nazis, and so we can make a GungHo kind of war movie about it as opposed to be if you want to listen to our thoughts on America being one percent the good guy in World War
two. Last week we put an episode out about Gojira Godzilla movies, and that won't have some thoughts on that. But for this, yeah, let me give a quick kind of summary of what these movies are about. So in the first one, and there will be some spoilers here. We're not gonna spoil it too much, but you know it, I think it's gonna be kind of trailer level of spoilers. We can may go deeper. Agree
you can always stop and watch them and then come back. But basically, the movies start with Richard Sharp as an enlisted man, not an office sergeant. It's a very sergeant, a very specific distinction in England. I was going to learn. And he happens to be on a battlefield at the same time as the person who will eventually become Wellington, the Duke of Wellington.
I think his name is Welsley. At this point, he is almost killed by the French and Sharp rescues them and kills the French snipers who are trying to kill Wellesley and the people are trying to attack him. Wallsey is deeply impressed by him and immediately promotes him to lieutenant, which kind of kick starts
the plot because it does two things. One, it puts him in command, and so a lot of the movies are then about him learning to be in command, and then also about him dealing with command and then the people he's commander of. But also, and we learned this in the first movie. In England at the time, as many societies, but especially in England, there's a very rigid class system in India. There's a very rigid class
system in England that applies to the army as well. And part of that is that officers are all gentlemen, and by gentlemen, which mean like the way you use that today, it specifically means nobleman people from the upper classes. In Britain, I think it specifically means part of the nobility in some ways, like landed people in some way, but it may also mean people who are in the kind of bought their way into the upper class. And
certainly at this time people could buy officerships with no actual military training. It did happen from time to time that a person would be enlisted from basically promoted from the enlisted men into being an officer, but it was often regarded as a bad idea, and so most of the officers are very reluctant to have Sharp be an officer, and they're constant talking about how he doesn't know the
right manners. There's an idea of like, you know, you know, men are brutes and so they must be led by a gentleman, and we're obviously frequently given the proof that that is not correct by any means. It's very much alike you know, man from the hard scrabble does good. But an interesting twist on this trope that I think actually really works and does feel
believable. Some of the people who most object to him being an officer are not just the other officers, but the other enlisted men, because they're also used to like they've kind of brought into a lot of this system and have a real sense of like, no, no, no, it's got to be one of those officers who commands us. I'm not going to listen to one of us, just another you know, piece of scum like us.
And part of that is that part of that is I think a sense of like, you know, we all have to stay on the bottom or else, you know, if anyone rises at the top, then we have to wonder why we aren't rising to the top, and the unfairness of that, and like, there's a lot of different reasons, but definitely they're very uncomfortable with him being an officer, and so with that kind of general tensions set up, he then goes on a lot of adventures, and they're the ones
we've seen, at least they're set durning what's called the Peninsula Campaign of the Napoleonic Wars, which is starting in around seven and going all the way into eighteen fifteen. Eventually. This is the fight where Napoleon had invaded Spain, put his brother onto the throne of Spain, and basically been kind of ruling
Spain as a client state. A lot of the Spanish were fighting back, and the English joined the Spanish in that fight, and so it's a fight theoretically of the French against the English and Spanish, but there's a lot of times where the Spanish are not really quite sure where they fit, or different sides of Spanish or fighting against each other, and then Sharpe just gets to have a lot of fun adventures in the midst of all that. I made
a reference to his love life. I have often wondered why Sean Bean, who I think is a very attractive person in a pretty particular kind of way, isn't often presented as a love interest in the things he's in. Apparently it's because he did all of that in this show. The only women who he's not paired with romantically, it's because they've already been established, are paired with one of his men or to someone else. I read a description of
the novels. The novels say that they are times where he trying The exact quote was he soldiered, fought, and shagged his way through the Napoleonic Wars. So apparently that's common. I think there's a they definitely feel like kind of like a play on the James Bond trope in British literature. In these books, But yeah, I think so there are a lot of fun there's sometimes very powerful emotional stuff. The fight scenes are for television in the nineties
in Britain. I think, you know, it's not the most realistic looking stuff sometimes, but I think it gives you a pretty accurate picture of what warfare at the time would have been like. And they're pretty fun scenes. And yeah, I think they just raised a lot of fun questions. Did I give kind of a good summary of the main overport? What did I miss? Yeah, I think that's that's the gist of it. You know, I think I would just highlight a couple of secondary characters that I wouldn't
without getting too deeply into them. But yeah, well, first you mentioned James Bond, and it's funny because I think the first thing I actually literally saw him in was Golden Eye. Oh. I didn't even know he's in there. He plays Double O six, He's he's the spoilers for Golden Eye, the main antagonist. Oh, he plays Alec and he probably got that role because he did the Sharp series. You know, I saw him the one thing, but I didn't even like, I didn't even realize it.
I went back and saw it and you know, the nice thing about the you know, the Sharp series is like, if you feel like watching something where Sean Bean survives two hours of stories, you know, he gets lots of love and he doesn't get killed exactly, It's like then everything I saw him in since then I was like, what the heck, where's the guy I saw in Sharp? I mean the acting is similar, but you know,
yeah, I'd say just two kind of critical characters. One is Sergeant Harper, who is not a sergeant at first, right, Sharp isn't put in control of this little squad called the you know, the Chosen Men, where they're like supposed to be crack shots. They're supposed to be like particularly good soldiers. So they've all been recognized for their excellence, right and given like one stripe, which I think is like kind of like corporal, although
maybe it's not actually corporal. Yeah, there's a whole thing about Chosen Man being this sort of like official, unofficial position in the British military. But in this I think they're kind of like an early proto version of what we think of today as a special forces unit. Right, They're not just okay, you have ten regiments on the line and this is the fifth Regiment.
They're often sent like behind enemy lines to do something, or to go to a scouting mission or sometimes much to Sharp objections, a spying mission, right exactly. And they so Harper kind of becomes he becomes the elevated one within them, the way you know, Sharp's been risen out of the ranks to become an officer. And their dynamic, I think it's really interesting. I
think we can get into more later. And then Brian Cox also is in the series as a spy master, you know, yes, basically I guess playing the same role as in The Bourne Identity and The Long Kiss good Night And for anyone who wants a more recent that actors and playing uh, he's Logan Roy, the titular father character in Succession, and so it's kind of fun hearing his very distinct voice in a very different kind of a role.
Yeah. Yeah, And he and Harper are both Irish, as is Wellesley or at least part Irish, right, And so there's this whole you know, dynamic of what role do the Irish have in the British Army, you know, when when you know the British are going around liberating country from you know, Napoleon's conquest, but it's like I feel like the series, the novels, and the shows are like interested in that, but not too interested in it, you know, like yeah, like in the first movie,
and we'll talk about specific issues, but I think there's maybe a good way to get into this one. In the first movie, I remember saying at the end of it to Paul, I don't know if this was intentional, but I found myself rooting for the French, and the reason for it is one of the things that Napoleon. Napoleon is a figure who I think, I think is often presented, particularly because our education is mostly like English based, I think is more negatively perceived in at least the education I got than
is fair. But I also think that therefore there was the response to it can be oh, no, he was great and wonderful, which is just as wrong. I think I think was like Stalin kind of right. No, I think Stalin is much much much worse. Okay, okay, fair. I just meant in terms of what I mean is that I feel like Stalin is like portrayed as this villain in the US education system, and then a lot of people are like, oh, but maybe some of those aren't aren't so bad, so like maybe he was the good guy, and it's
like, yeah, both extreme. Yeah, I think that's very fair. I think like, to me, like Napoleon was one of a number of European rulers at various points in this time who tried to conquer large amounts of plan and tried to conquer lage amunts of people and like that's not cool, as you said. And on the one hand, he was carrying out a lot of the French revolutions ideas, and he brought like he pushed back on the papacy and a lot of place and that's a big plot point in some
of the Spanish episodes. He brought a much more specific rule of law as opposed to absolute monarchy, and the Napoleonic Code is still used as the basis of law in France and a couple of other countries. In many ways, he was a product of the Enlightenment and Enlightenment thought in terms of like more
rational. You know, it's kind of like what we think of as like not liberal as the word is used today, but like the classical kind of idea of liberal as a like constitutionally based government as opposed to absolute rule. There was a lot of that, but he was also an absolute ruler and
he really dialed back on some of that. But in this particular episode, the first episode, we come to learn that they're working alongside among one of the Spanish loyalists, who loyalists the original king Ferdinand fighting against the French chosen Joseph Bonaparte, Napoleon's brother. But one of I mean antagonists is this guy's brother and this and the brother is saying no, no, no. Napoleon
and conquered Spain. He liberated Spain, and he liberated Spain, among other things from the papacy, which it was, as you said, a very theological country. That he's bringing reason and like those ideas. And one point says like, you know, he's talking to sharp and to his brother, and he says, your Spain is a spain of soldiers and monks of cold monasteries. Mine is a spain of science and diplomacy, of court, of education and enlightenment and things like that. And that's where I was like,
I like your Spain a lot better. And the truth is, I mean, I think like and that's you know, the majority of the Spanish people were against that vision of Spain, so it was like a liberation war that was also in part because they were very very you know, immersed in Catholic ideology, and like that's a problem in a lot of ways. I don't
mean there's attacking Catholicism. I mean that any kind of theocracy. And I think, like I said, I think the movie uses that as a plot point to give you some pathos between this fight between the brothers, but it's pretty clear that the English reporting one is going to win and that we're supposed
to feel happy about that. And I think that the way you put it is very accurate that like it's using the Napoleonic Wars as a backdrop, but there are specific issues that wants to comment on, such as class, but the Napoleon Wars itself are not really one of them. Yeah, exactly exactly. And one character that I left out is the leader of the I guess guerrillas basically, right, or the Teresa Partisans, Yeah, partisans, Yeah, exactly, And and she I think is really like I think she's probably
the best female character in the series. Teresa. Yeah, And she's a spy. She works for kind of like the Spanish underground and she eventually falls in love with Sharp and they get married and have a daughter. Yeah, and you know, the series isn't isn't the best in terms of you know, female characters and women and and I guess the daughter is the only other
female character shark doesn't you know? Poink? But like, you know, there are some characters who other officers are other people, right exactly who's not?
No, I mean besides the ones who are attached to you know, but it is, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, I mean, how would you I feel like even having like Teresa as a character is like certainly an effort to try to be like, Okay, let's not just have this be all about men and like the women are only attached to men, and because like when you think about the era, it's like, oh geez, Like if you're telling a story specifically about
the war and the armies, it's like, yeah, most of your characters are going to be male, and most of them are going to be very misogynistic, you know, And yeah, I think you're right. Like Teresa is a character who I think is in four four of the episodes, and
it's a long arc. Like with her and Sharp, they slowly get to know each other, they slowly fall for each other, and their relationship and her character is really developed over a number of episodes, and then not even when she dies, but before before she dies, there's also just a series of women who get taken capture and Sharp rescues and then wind up sleeping with him, or not one quite there's at least one where they what you mean,
before there's one he rescues before You're right, he doesn't sleep when there's one he rescues. In the same episode where Terressa died, You're pretty interesting. He never has to deal with a moment of did he just cheat on her? Because she immediately he gets killed. And then later there's even a scene where he rescues someone from a nunnery and who clearly has already decided she's going to reward him, because as she's running out with him, she says,
goodbye, I'm about to commit a whole bunch of adultery. But yeah, I think I think Terressa. It's always hard when you're talking about the way a show talks about an issue that we think of very differently today from the time it was told, and these I think have the like a lot of comic books where they're written I think about twenty years earlier and then made, you know, but still also like more than twenty years ago. And
I think overall the treatment of women it's pretty bad. And some of that's historically accurate and some of it's also like, but still, the possible essay of a woman character is a plot point in every single episode that I've seen, which is definitely not the best. It's not the Game of Thrones level because the most often is a threat, but still it's like, come on, we know that's a part of the story, but you don't have to
keep right. It doesn't have to be every single sign. I do feel like maybe they slow down with that a little bit as it goes on, but like you know, okay, I'm not I can't guarantee it, but I do really like Teressa as a character because I think I think in those early episodes, especially when Sharp was really finding himself, all three of the characters you mentioned, Teressa, Hogan and Brian Cox who acts just so dominant
like Harper, Yeah, Hogan, Harper and Teressa da thank you. They all I think are in different ways helping him to grow into the character he becomes. And so let's start with sort of who he is. Let's talk about how is how his struggles with class and how that is presented in the
military is shown, especially in that first episode. Yeah, I mean, you know, his backstory is like he was born into you know, his mom was was a prostitute and she got murdered I think when he was like three, and then he grew up in an orphanage, and then he grew up on the streets, and then he joined the army because it's like what
else are you going to do? Kind of if you're you know, broke and you know, don't have any family and and so yeah, he's just like he's a soldier out of like what else is he going to do? Sort of right, like out of he he needs a job or to feel like he has a purpose, I guess, you know, and right, and it doesn't feel like he like is super motivated by England and this and that and whatever. It's like for him. He's just he's a career soldier,
you know. And yeah, he's not there's never big patriotic moments. He's never sort of he never says, I think let's do this for king and country. Really about he creates this camaraderie and brotherhood among his troops,
and then really it's about like fighting for his troops, right exactly. He's very much you know, and so he becomes, you know, a soldier's officer basically, right, which makes a lot of sense and sort of does underscore like, yeah, you probably should learn to be a soldier before you
learn to be an officer, you know. But in the first episode there's a thing where the whole plot is like that the one brother who you know supports the monarchy and and the papacy wants to like put this flag of Santiago and like wave it and thinks there's gonna like be an uprising, right, it's gonna like ignite Spain basically, and you know, sharp's like like you think men will fight and die for a rag on a pole like and and
specifically want to say the rag is it's associated with a story from a thousand years ago that apparently it's the blood of this like Martyred saying two fought for Spain, and so it's very much a religious symbol and that's part of I think what sharp objective? Right, and then Hogan's like you do Sharp, you do you know, and it's like it's true, but it's also kind
of not true. You know. There's there's just there's one Hogan line that I just sorry, this is a complete tangent, but like this is Hogan kind of bending the truth a little bit. There's a spot where Wellesley like is like do you think such and such? And Hogan's like no, and then Wellesley's like, you're a liar, Hogan. He's like, that's what
you pay me for. Yes, very true, but yeah, it's like, you know, the idea of like fighting for your country, fighting for your king, you know, fight like Sharp's fighting for the army that he's in because that's what he does. You know. It's like it's almost like a it's a purpose that's its own purpose, and he always wants to try and keep his men alive. There's a lot of like training scenes, you know, where where he's like, you know, if you do what you're
doing now, you're gonna get killed. So I'm gonna teach you to do this other thing and then you'll you might still get killed, but you'll be less likely to get killed, and you'll be more likely to achieve your objective, you know, And yeah, I really enjoy it. In the first episode, how like Teresa's like teaching him, but she's a leader of a group, right, and he's just become a leader. He's been a sergeant, you know. Like the first thing we see him say is given order.
The first thing he says is, you know, eyes down, lads, you know, when Wellesley comes by, because like you're not even supposed to look at the officers or at the higher general or whatever. But like, you know, he's he's just he's had this like hard life and he's
he's a soldier's soldier, but now he's a soldier's officer. And like, you know, he gained the respect of Harper by beating the crap out of him, and they beat the crap out of each other, you know, and then like Hogan tries to kill him, and he's like, Okay, we're gonna take you back to Portugal to get shot by a firing squad.
And then like Harper does some heroic thing even though he really doesn't have to, and then Sharp's like all right, fall In and the other guys like you know, don't you want him to give you some you know, big reward, And Harper's like he did, he told me to fall in, you know, and like he's just I feel like he's a character who he's like he's learning how to be an officer, but like he already he can empathize with the people he's commanding in a way that really no other officer that
we see can actually empathize with them. He understands their actual jobs as well. And one thing I really liked about that first story is that, like when I saw the setup, I was like, oh, Okay, this is gonna be about how he's a better officer than the other officers because he understands the soldiers, et cetera. But he's pretty terrible at first. Oh yeah, and in part I think trying to like because he's only seen that examples of office for the most part, he winds up doing some of the
things that they do. Like it's a clear part of his backstory is that he at one point was whipped flogged as they call it, for a client that he didn't commit. And early in the movie, Harper winds up getting into this really hard combat situation where instead of like properly loading his rifle. All three times, he winds up one point just like shoving the ramrod in
and then firing that and using the ramrod itself as a weapon. And that's part of why he normally stays alive but saves the thing they're supposed to be saving, which is the leader. Yeah. Sharp comes along and all he sees is that like something went wrong with his rifle and the ramrod, and it was like, oh, you did that's wrong. I'm punishing you for it. And it was a really interesting moment of like, oh, like
Sharp screwed that up. And I think it's a very understated way, which is very common for English stuff especially, and I kind of like it. It's not there's never a specific moment where Sharp is like I was wrong, but I think he clearly he starts asking Harper what happened instead of just assuming, and he starts listening to him and then taking him seriously. And I think that that's meant at like part of why Harper is okay with it.
It's because Harper comes to recognize that Sharp has grown past that and realized his mistake, and then for most of the later movies, at least that I've seen so far, including one where I really thought Harper was going to die and I was very mad about it, but he didn't die. Harper becomes a second in command and really the person he talks to about a lot of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, And I really like that they got we got to seek his growth of him being like kind of a terrible officer and growing
through it. Yeah, me too, absolutely. I mean it's always you know, this is a series that to me shows a lot of the things that I want to see in things when I'm like, I feel like someone is already doing something that I'm like, I want to see them learn that, you know, and then I want to see them do it. I don't want to see them struggle with it every single time, you know, Like you know, I didn't. Once you find your identity, like be happy with it, be that and you know, be that person. Right.
But it's like the story of how someone gets there is is also interesting, and it's worth noting that I believe was the ninth novel written interesting, but they made it it's chronologically first of the you know, the Napoleonic warror novels, and they made it the first episode because it does show the backstory, you know, but the series originally, you know, he was already this guy, you know, and the I mean the in the novels.
When they started the novels, you know, Bernard Cornwall like was like, you know, this is the character I want, you know, and it would be like you know, if you write your first James Bond and it's like, okay, this is Bond, but then you're like, Okay, now I'm gonna go and do kind of so that episode was like, actually it's kind of like a prequel, you know, it's just they filmed at first, and yeah, the thing with the Ramrod, yeah, he's like
yelling at him about it, but then he listens to what he has to say, and I kind of I don't I might have read the scene differently where I feel like he wasn't necessarily going to punish him for that. He wasn't. He kind of wanted to like get him to explain it in this sort of defensive way, and then he's like, all right, fall in because that's when he says fall in, and you know, the other guys like don't you want to reward and he's like he did give me. I
mean also he decided not to have him killed. You know, that's right, that's kind I thought the time, I thought that Ramrod Secene happened significantly earlier. But you may be right. No, that well, I'm definitely right about when it happened. There might have been another thing where he says basically, he says, you know, you have powder burns on your cheek,
Harper. That's a sign of going off half cocked, basically, And because he's he shot the Ramrod through one of the French who they were like, the older the brother who who wants to get yeah, get too lost, the decails. He may be right, but either way, yeah, no I am but uh no that okay, you have a time limit, so let's not Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, I don't have a time limit limit. I have a time yeah. Okay, okay, okay, let's just let's just move forward. Okay, what was
the point you're trying to make? Yeah, the point I'm trying to make.
Well, I'll just I'll just say a thing. Okay. So what happens in the scene before that confrontation between Sharp and Harper is the brother who wants to uh, you know, get rid of the papacy and the monarchy has two soldiers with him, right, and he says, you know, this bag of gold will be one of you will be rich and one will be dead because like he thinks he can only shoot one of them, and then one of them goes charging first, which seems like a really bad idea.
He gets shot, Harper reloads, but he's not really in time to reload, so he shoots and his Ramrod, you know, hits the second
one, like through the throat or something. And then there's the whole thing with Sharp that I'm not one hundred percent and exactly the sequence of their discussion, and I think it says something positive about the movie that you and I can read that scene in somewhat different ways, because again, it's not hitting you over the head with it, right, There's a lot of subtlety to it, and I think I think part of the point is that both Sharp
and Harper are both caught in this class system that is utterly ridiculous. And that now, because I remember being very surprised that Harper and all the others were so like, I get some level of resentment, but just like utterly
refusing to accept his authority and do straight up mutant. Yeah, that's why Hogan wants to send him home because he attacks him and just was like, no, I'm not going to follow your orders, and he's trying to get all the others could be like no, we're marching south, We're going back
home. Yeah, yeah, and either you can come with us or we can kill you if those are your options basically, and then they fight and they fight really dirty, and there's this like you know, oh you fight dirty, and it's like you fight dirty two and it's like this admiration sort of thing, which I felt like their their interaction there as like having done taekwondo for a long time and having some higher ranking black belts at some point,
like people have these ideas about other people, right, and like we used to get together and just like beat the crap out of each other every Sunday, And like I remember distinct moments when somebody's sort of their perception or they're like thought, they're like oh you know that, like oh, they actually were able to, you know, fight in this way, and and it just felt very real in terms of I mean, I've never been in actual military, you know, but in terms of a group of people who
spend a lot of time training and fighting, Like there is this like when somebody hits you in a certain way, and it's like there is this respect that can come from that, and then like friendship, you know, as long as someone actually causes permanent harm to the other one. Yeah, or doesn't I think you mean right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't
even know. I think it's really true. I think another part of it is I think one of the things that the movies really play out, Like we get a number of scenes where these military people, the officers who are gentlemen and I'm kind of foppish, and I think whereas used a couple of times, they're not out there leading the charge their way behind, and I think there's this like they really care about the nobility of warfare, you know, and like all these men marching in a clean, pure line and then
lining up and firing and then getting fired at and just being noble and good in a really stupid way of fighting a war. Yeah, And that unfortunate
continues in the British military all the way until World War One. And that's a bit there's tons of right about that about the why World One was so horrible in many militaries at the time, and I think part of the thing is that, like, because it's not the officers who are dying, and they are so disconnected from the men who are dying like that, like you said, these men don't even think they can look those officers in the eye,
let alone complain to them. And I think that's part of what happened there, is that Harper realizes, like this guy, this guy gets that we're not like they're snipers. They're hiding behind rocks, they're shooting. They very rarely just stand out in the open and fire like that. When they
do, it's because of those dire circumstances. And I think that's another part of it, is that, like they Sharp shares with that, and that a lot of their friendship and later episodes is born out of like the officers giving them some really stupid order and Harper's like, you're not gonna make us do that, are you in Sharp's no, We're gonna figure something out, right, Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, the work around. Yeah,
in terms of the officers too. I think I recall this didn't come up in the episodes that I rewatched just now, but I remember definitely from the books, there's this whole thing about like you don't shoot at the officers, Like the officers aren't a part of the battle, they are there to oversee it. And then you know, and then they wave a little white flag and they're like, oh, let's parlay. And then it's like,
okay, we'll go back ten minutes. Yes, we'll send the men to fight each other again in ten minutes, you know, and it's like you know, and Sharp's like, no, you shoot, you shoot the officer, you shoot the horse, you know, which like I'm not in favor of that as an animal advocate, but like, yeah, if you're in a war and there's someone on a horse, like if you can, like you probably do want to kill the horse and then it's going to fall over
with the person on it. And like, you know, again not advocating it, and like war bad, you know, like using horses in war bad. But like, you know, strategy, like once you have an end, it's like strategy is you know a thing? Yeah, you know, and it's definitely true. And like The Patriot, which is an American movie with Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson's terrible. The movie is terrible. It
white watches slavery. It's horrible, but it does bring up that point that the British are very mad at him that he's targeting officers because like that's not how war should be follow supposed to be noble. And like there's one scene later with a truly ridiculous officer who gets mad that the men are cursing,
you know, men like decorous language and stuff. And yeah, it's just and it's like each individual movie plays it off in a different way, but pretty much every movie there's some sense of that of the the nobility being just so out of touch and so ridiculous. And a recurring theme is Sharp in later episodes, is Sharp seducing the wives of these noblemen who are clearly not satisfying the noble women, and him being much more earthy mania than people and
is a hind to back. Yeah, and that you know, that feels like in nineteen eighties nineteen nineties kind of like more you know, sort of true. I mean, not that that's not still a thing now, you know, but yeah, but I think it's more people are more critical of like having that be the role of women in something to be like a prize or like a you know, a way of like getting at some other man is you know, yes, so, and like I think there's a lot
of truth to the critique of the nobility at the time. But you can see kind of like something of a line from something like this to the today, like no, you got to be a man's man. You gotta know how to fix it truck, you know, not being one of those foppish
city boys, right right, So that's interesting to look at. Yeah, you mentioned the fact that the number of the characters are Irish, which something I know a good deal about and I actually from here, living in Ireland and some of studies I don't knew a lot about Irish at this point in time here here to start from. You. So, what what struck you about those three characters all being Irish and how that played out? I mean not a lot, Like it's you know, it's it's interesting like Harper,
like why I mean, why does Harper join? Harper joins because he says, you know, freedom to starve as no freedom at all. You know, it's like he wants a job. It's a way out, you know. And you know a lot of the other you hear the backstories of the other chosen men and they're like, yeah, well I could either stay in prison or they let me into the army. You know. It's like you
know, a magistrates. So but like Wellesley and Hogan, I think are their their nobility I guess because they're officers, right or you know, the opposite of that. But you know, I do think it's interesting that like so many of the main characters are Irish and that that or main characters are you know, pivotal characters, and I think that that's it sort of makes it feel a little bit less like the war is on behalf of like you
know, England, you know. I mean they talk about like King George and whatever a bunch, you know, but like in this kind of vague referential way and not in a you know, we're we really care what he's doing in a way. So yeah, it I mean, I know, I know you have more actual historical perspective on it, right. For me,
it's just kind of interesting things about their characters. Yeah, I think it definitely was, and I think it's an interesting part of the English Empire, especially because I think he will cause a full discussion of his own but another character winds up being an American who was a He was a loyalist, so he fled the colonies after the Revolution because he thought the revolution was wrong.
Not an American of Virginian Sir. Yes, like he says, right and certainly was true that like there were of what they through all its colonials in the British military. I think, though those different characters, what we're seeing is that the word Irish can mean a number of different things in in the English Empire, the British Empire at the time, and I think the
characters are a couple of levels. So for one, there were a lot of English settlers in England, in Ireland, and that's obviously the source of a lot of the troubles and stuff, and a lot of them were English nobility. And my belief, my dshanity that Wellesley is one of those. Yeah. There's a famous quote by Daniel O'Connell, who's a very famous Irish patriot and freedom kind of early politician, and he said about Wellington, he
is not an irishman. He was born in Ireland. But being born in a stable does not make a man a horse, which I though it was a very uh, you know, aways someone of the right specific political agenda. But yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's funny, but it's also it's like there there's it feels different because we're talking about, you know, the people descended from the occupying force compared to like, you know, it's like, does being born in the United States not make you a United
States end? Wait the words American? Right, Well, yeah, because I mean, like, I think we don't often think, but Ireland is European, but i'land is the only country in Europe that was that was a colonizer rather than being part of like there were others that I think there's some degree to it, but certainly Ireland was a colony in terms of like yah, yeah, and then there was a distinct difference between the occupiers and the
indigenous people and then the them intermixing and things like that, and I think that's kind of where some of this is coming from. And so you had people like that. I'm guessing if Hogan was an officer, then he's either that or he might even be in English and an Irish family that was like totally okay with the occupation and so became part of the nobility in Ireland or
something like that. And then certainly you had a lot of people like Harper who were as I said before, you know, when the colonies are getting stars of all the resources and jobs, often you go to the main place in order to find work. And it's certainly an awful lot of Irish lived
in England. And this is all the way up to like Peaky Blinder's days, or even today, who would so think of themselves as Irish and be treated very much as second class citizens because they were Catholic and hold onto their Irish identity, but still be English and thus drafted into an English regiment. As we later learn, he eventually gets control of the company from South Essex, which is a part of England where they're all from separate and opposed to
that. Also, because Ireland was a part of the British Empire, you did have full regiments that would from Ireland go off to fight, many of whom were probably constricted, many of whom were conscripted, I mean, and many of whom probably were going because they just said a hunger, but because this war was seen as by many an attack on the papacy by the French
and things like that. When I was in Ireland, there's actually a lot of like you know, statues to and reverence for the brave Irish volunteers who fought to protect the faith in Spain. Right. There's a great song called fairly Well and a Skill in one of my favorite Irish folk songs, and it's about the Enniskillen Dragoons, a group of irishmen who went to go fight
for the English military. So yeah, so it's a very interesting thing, and I do really like the way that plays out, because I think sharp is definitely not that, but the the irishness is very subtly commented on. But I think you're right, it's very much there and a part of this whole, like we are the people who are kicked around, not the people who get to do the kicking. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really interesting
historical perspective. And that's that's sort of That's one of the things that I like about this series is that, like overall, it's it's a series of like fun adventure tales basically, right, but like it has it wears like a coat of historical you know, historical fiction, right, right, I mean of like this historical content text, and I one of the things I think is powerful about historical fiction compared to like biopics, like I really just
don't I don't like things that are like I'll go away from like what I don't like, but like I enjoy how this is a series of stories that are like here, stories that like I totally made up about. There's some historical figures and then there's some you know, made up characters. But like, the thing I like about is I feel like it's more likely to kind of spark interest compared to something that feels like it's trying to tell you this
is what happened. And then I I'm like, there's a couple of reasons I like the latter the first the former better is just like I like having my interest sparked instead of like you know, being like this is this is
exactly the story. But also like I think if something sparks your interest, then you can investigate and you can learn at kind of your own, like find different sources, Whereas I think a lot of historical stuff and you know, this might do some of them as well, but but a lot of things that are like here's the history of whatever, and it's like a film
that's not a documentary. It like I think can often give a false sense of like knowing like what really happened, you know what I mean, and like then not and then if that leads to exploration, you know, that's great too. Yeah, No, I think that's really true. And I hear why you you label biopics is like the problem and that I do think there's some biopics that do a better job of it, and some that do worse, and some, as you say, like a retelling of actual events
that are just as bad that aren't biopics. But I very much getting the point you're making there, and I think having it be based on real people. But like, basically it's one of those kind of like he winds up there for being a key part of every important thing the English did throughout the entire war, right, which makes of course, and of course, but it's a way to sort of give you like it's hard to tell a movie about an army, yes, like, because the whole point is it's not
individual combat. It's not one sniper. It's hundreds of thousands of men on each side shooting at each other and finding more and more scientifically ways to blow each other up. Ye, go back and listen to our episode about Gujira, Gujira, Godzilla. If you want to hear our thoughts on that, yea, And yeah, so I think it's like I agree with it.
It's it's a fun piece of historical fiction that opens that door. And I'll certainly say I had already learned a lot about this, but I definitely like was going to websites and learning a lot more about Napoleon and Wellesley Wellington and
these other figures because of this, because of these shows. Yeah, yeah, And I mean it inspired me to like actually get a book about history, like The History of the World, and then read it and then be just incredibly depressed that the history of the world is basically just people acquiring power
and then abusing it to oppress people. And then there's like sometimes there's a revolution and then the people who led the re evolution end up doing their own form of oppression, and then someone else conquers them, and then it's like, oh my goodness. But then again, that's like that's a way of telling history, right, Like that's not that's not all the history. There's a lot of stories that happened along the way that like aren't in histories.
You know, it's maybe like a people's history, which I still want to read. Yeah, because certainly it's generally about like Napoleon did this, and welling To did this, and maybe this other general did this, but it's never about like the individual people on the ground, right exactly. So let's talk a bit about the specific person I mentioned, Colonel Thomas Leroy, who's the Virginian. It is very funny, how like I think often we in the United States. I in the United States, Paul, I am in
the United States. That is factually accurate. I think we're often taught that the American colonies breaking away from England and then fighting another war against them in eighteen twelve were like these SIMI at all moments in English history, right my understanding is the English perspective, it's quite different, and it's probably maybe a little more significant than sometimes it's presented as, but certainly a lot less than
we're presented as. And in these like the fact that they had lost the American colony is fairly recently is almost never discussed in some of the later episodes and I'm watching now that take place in eighteen thirteen, eighteen fourteen, England is now at war with the United States, again the War of eighteen twelve, and that's nowhere on the I mean, because from our perspective it was
a major war. From the English perspective, it was just like little sideline of a war that was being fought in all these different places in the world. Yeah, spoilers. That does come up more specifically later, but I won't. Okay, cool, well, And so we're introduced to this character in I believe it's the second episode, Colonel Thomas Leroy. Who is I think, yeah, okay, I wikipedia it's telling me lieutenant colonel. But he might maybe he gets promoted it in the series. I found him very
interesting because we are told that he was a slave owner. As he said, he has all this gold because of slavery, molasses and rum, and he clearly has no shame about it, and for the most part, no one else is judging him for it. England did, I think, even by then had outlawed the slave trade, and you know, had offered to free slaves as part of the fight against the American colonies in the relation of war. But clearly in the military no one is being like, oh my
god, you're a slave owner. You're terrible sharp at the very end of the episode has a comment about like, well you your gold came from slavery,
and that's not really great. But a lot of the episode, like, I think this an episode, Well I was gonna say, I think it's a episode where Sharp gets into trouble that all the yeas online, but Leroy is kind of defending him a lot, and it's presented as a like, he is not an antagonist by any meanings, and he's presented as a like more sympathetic than a lot of the other officers, which I just thought
was a very interesting way to portray a slave. Right. And again I think that like, you know, for a British perspectives, not American forty years ago written and then twenty years ago, whereas today I think we're you know, all this stuff about like wanting to accurately teach slavery in schools, slaves the history benefit, Yeah, slaves did not benefit from being slaves, contrary to what certain states might want to teach. But yeah, I can
of curious how that struck you. Yeah, I mean I thought it was interesting. I think I feel like, you know, they are trying. He's a likable character, you know, in terms of what he does within the context of the episode. And you know, but he also is party too despicable acts right, right, and and you know, involved in a
despicable system of atrocities. And I think that's very I'm sure they're like I think just like hanging out going to a baseball game with like George W. Bush would probably be as long as we didn't discuss politics, like a pretty
chill, relaxing, fun thing, you know what I mean. But like, the dude did some things that are unconscionable, you know, and like that's true about I think many of the people who do unconscionable things, many of them with you know, less power than you know, the as sensible leader of the free world for eight years. But like are like on a personal level and also on a on a more specific level, like capable of just of doing good things too. Like that's how people are. You know.
It's hard to be a successful leader without some degree of chrisma, right, possible for depending on what your power base is. Yeah, but often some degree of chrisma is a big part of what gets people to your side. Yeah, And you know it's I think reading that book is where I learned the word laconic, because like every time they talk about an American character that you describe them as being laconic and interesting. But like it's you know, I think he's meant to be like to sort of show this other,
you know, kind of perspective. Right, But then Sharp, you know, Sharp does call him out on it, you know, at the end, and but at the same time, like nobody else does, you know, and it's like it's not super consequential that what you know, I mean, what Sharp says what he says, but like it's like Okay, yeah, you know, he's still gonna be But I mean, but that's the thing, like probably most of the loyalists were slave owners, right, like
that was the main or no, maybe it's not. I don't know, you know what I'm I rescind this kind of let that be stricken from the record, but like it you know, being I don't know, I don't know that that is there's the whole can of whatever when it comes to like the American Revolution, and you know how how that may be preserved, the right the system of slavery. I know, a couple of years ago I
read this greatly great article. I wish I could find it again. It was This wasn't the title, but it was I think in the subtitles like that was, you know, basically with Black Lives Matter through a British lens, and it was a black a black English person or a black British person talking about the Black Lives Matter movement and how it's playing out in England and
in Great Britain. And one of the things I remember that they talked about at length was how, you know, Britain has never really wanted to wrestle
with its own racist problems. It's been starting to, but that one of the biggest one of the things that would often happen is like they were very quick to be like America had and slavery, slavery was American and to kind of write it off and you know again, yeah, Paul's making a face right now, because it was British ships that brought slaves over for an awful long time. Yeah, it means the British colonies in America, Like right, I mean, it's like, you can't you know that's that wasn't nice
exactly exactly. Nor were the Africans who were brought into you know, Cribbean islands and things like that again by the British to British colonies treated well by any means, that's whoever, they were also drawn into the purpose of slave I think. I think that system of slavery was slightly or somewhat different than what happened in America, but still just as horrible and atrocity as and all this kind of stuff. And yeah, so I don't know anyone near about
it. People do know more, please let write in low But I in that understanding of kind of an English writing off of slavery and racism as more of an American thing. I found this character very interesting in that lens, and so it's one thing I want to learn more about. Yeah, for sure, for sure. There's one other actor in that episode that I'm wondering whether you you spotted. I saw all five of them in two days, and so, like I probably I spotted a number of actors. I was
like, Oh, is that person, and then immediately forgot. Yeah. Yeah, So there's speaking of James Bond. Daniel Craig plays one of the officers who tries to off sharp at one point and totally miss Yeah. Yeah, I was like that dude looks so familiar. But this is in like nineteen ninety three or something, you know, so he's like much younger. Yeah. Anyway, even Sean, like Sean Bean already looks like grizzled and war weary, but he's so young in these yeah. Yeah, he's on
his thirties, you know. Yeah. So all right, Well, I think it's gonna be a shorter episode and we will talk more about Sean Bean and our Patreon section. And I think, you know, if people are interested in these, let us know, because I think we could do some great analysis of like some of the individual movies. But Paul, is anything else about the character in general you wanted to bring up? I mean, I think we mostly covered the things I would have to say about about the
character. I mean, there's there's so many movies. I only rewatched the first two, you know, and and the rest of these it's in twenty five ish years since I saw and read them. So yeah, one just one note that I would throw in is that they're largely filmed in Crimea,
which seems really interesting to debt. Right, It's like there's there's a little bit of a parallel there a. The English fought a war with Russia called the Crimean war in Crimea and then right, yeah, like Russia has taken control of Crimea, and that's like the if you think about the ODES supports and the fight to reopen your death supports and all that, that's right by
Crimea. Yeah, it's that area. And using the pretense that there are Russians there who want to be part of Russia as opposed to Ukraine, right, that was a big part of the I mean to what extent that's a preten I'm sure there's like some people, right, but like it wasn't enough people, you know, And I feel like that's a little bit of a parallel to the you know, the the French in Spain and not saying it's the same thing, right, but there's just a little it's just kind of
funny, I mean, you know, in the way that war is the very sad, dark but at times funny, humorous irony. Yes, exactly. I am a big believer in finding those moments because else it's all just so horribly depressing, exactly exactly. I do want to I want to close you by saying a word or two about the inspiration for this character. There's probably a lot, you know, I haven't read much about what the author said, and I think I think James Bond was definitely a part of it.
But there where's a real life man named John Ship. It was not completely unheard of to elevate an officer off from the ranks, but it was rarely done. John Ship, though, is particularly noteworthy because he did it twice. He was a sergeant. He fought in not only nowhere does in his history they talked about fighting in Spain. He did most of his fighting in India and then was now in Nepaul and some of that area up there,
fighting almost entirely, you know, wars of enforcing British colonialism. But he did he did something heroic. He volunteered for a heroic mission, was successful in it, was promoted to an officer. Apparently it kind of like
went to his head. He went back to England and like gambled a lot and like could not afford to be an officer basically, and so kept all these different schemes and lost all of his money, and uh, you know, I think it was I went to jail at some point, was stripped of his rank, and then like ten years later he re enlisted in the British Army, was again made his way up to sergeant and then again did something heroic and was again promoted to officer. Hilarious. So yeah, there's
just a really crazy, crazy story about mister Ship. And apparently he then like like he wrote an autobiography and like other people have written folks about him, like he's a pretty well known character in British military. So yeah, that sounds like a worthy inspiration. I'm sure someone writing historical fiction is going to be like, oh hmm, that seems like an idea for a story. There is one more thing on the character that occurred ahead, and I
just want to say yes. And so the last thing I would say about the character the real life person Jim Ship, and this is paul One that I started to read the sentence and had a lot of this paragraph and was very very concerned, but it turned out actually pretty good because as it described, his first actually military posting was in South Africa, and so his first major engagement was against baboons, and what wound up happening was like they were
in an area and that baboons were like circling around them and throwing excrement at them and otherwise sort of harassing them, and as he writes it, they the baboons observed my movement and immediately detached about fifty to guard the entrance, while the others kept their post, and we could sickly see them collecting large stones and other missiles. One old gray headed one who we had seen before, nicknamed Father Murphy, was he distributing the orders and planning their attack.
This is clearly rather fanciful, but you know, not entirely unknown. A screen from Mother and Murphy signal started the encounter. A host of baboons unders command rolled down roma stones on us that we were obliged to give up the contest or some of us must inevitably have been killed. They actually followed us to our doors, shouting their victory cry. So he didn't They didn't like fight the baboons. The didn't kill the baboons. They accoinded to his memoirs,
they just like ran away. They were routed by baboons. Yes, yes, that's amazing. I love it so yeah. And that is from the Memoirs of John Shipp page forty two and forty three. Oh dear, all right, Paul, was the last thing you want to say with the
character in the world apout. Yeah, it just the last thing is about you know, so Sean being played the character while the novel series was ongoing, but the earlier novels had been out for like about a dozen years or so, and the author Cornwell was so impressed with Bean's portrayal that he changed the character's backstory or expanded the backstory to to have him be growing up in Yorkshire to because you know, to match Bean's accent, and then also stopped
mentioning that the character had black hair because you know, Bean's blonde. And he basically was like, I'm gonna let the books kind of like match, you know, so as as art imitates art imitates history or something. And I particularly like that because you said he's not from South Essex, he's from Yorkshire. Yeah, John Ship is from from Essex. Oh okay, yeah, that's where that detail got in there. So yeah, it's kind of
cool that it moved from the historical inspiration to the actors. Yeah, and I think both of those were worked in basically because Shart moved around because you know, no family. So great discussion, Paul, Thank you so much recommending this tour. Listeners, what do you think we'd love to hear your thoughts feedback. We were We're getting a lot of stuff. We've been gotten this for stuff that Paul hasn't watched yet, so I'm gonna do spoilers for
those things on other episodes, but keep the feedback coming. We love to see it. You can find all the ways to reach us by going to the Ethical Panta dot com. Most importantly, there you'll also find our Patreon content. You have to find all this in the show notes. Patren is
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