Rebroadcast • Rings of Power

of Power. This is where myself and Paul Hoppey dive into this show set in J. R. R. Token's world, but happening many many, many many centuries, I think even millennia before the events of Lord of the Rings, showing you the start of all those events that led to those movies by Peter Jackson. We love so much. There was a lot to say about the first season. Things

we liked, things we didn't. What's set up and I'm excited for myself to go back and hear it, and hope you are too as we get ready or some of you may already be to watch what's happening in season two. So this is the content of season one. Please check it out and we'll have new content for

you coming out next week. Thank you so much. We have spoken three podcasts for the Star Wars fans under the Sky, seven for the Dwarf lords who talk about D and D. Nine podcast We're given to humans so they could talk about all the things that drive them crazy and bother them in this everyday world. But they

were all of them deceived. For there was one podcast made by one host and one very much not a host, where they would talk about all of the things we've discussed, but today would talk particularly about the one episode to bring them all together, one episode to rule them, one episode to bind them all together in debate over non human characters and how they are treated on screen and in the darkness, do something else to them because I

just came up with idea a second ago. As you may have guessed, we will be discussing the Rings of Power. We will not be using pretentious ridiculously well as pretentious as Paul and I normally are. We will be, but I will now stop trying to imitate Lord of the Rings. I'll just say we're gonna have a lot of fun talking about Rings of Power. And probably the ads are now gonna be at something about destroying the environment because

that would be appropriate. So don't buy the stuff if it is, but like if it's cool, stuff by it, because then people will we'll get paid for the podcasts and that's kind of fun. All right, goodbye ads.

story and I greatly enjoyed watching the story. I have not read much of the text material that this was drawn from, nor have I read much of the text material that, to the consternation of many, this was not drawn from. So I think it's fair to say this podcast is gonna be about what we saw on screen and analyzing that story, without getting too much into the many, many, many debates about how this relates to what is in written form. Is that accurate for your perspective as well?

bit about adaptations. And I think the idea is that this is supposed to gel with the the Peter Jackson movies, but not actually have share perfect continuity with them. Right.

but I wouldn't say I have super strong feelings. So I respect that when people do, they do, especially if they express them in not super hostile toxic ways, but sort of like, hey, this isn't what I want exactly, like yeah, cool.

and granted it was coming out at a time that a lot of other things are coming out. I think Wheel of Time was still kind of finishing up, which I was sort of trying to follow but having trouble with. How so the Dragon was coming out and or started coming out, there was a lot of content happening at the time that this show was coming out, as well as just as I've said before, in general, I work

much better binging some of these shows. So I kind of fell off after a couple of episodes, and then Paul, I remember you kind of like poking me a few times, asking me if I'd watched it and indicating that you wanted to talk about it, and finally I did. I binge it over a weekend with my partner, really enjoyed it thought, especially after the first couple episodes, it really kind of got rolling and really got drawn into it

and figured there's an awful lot to talk about. But I want to kind of start by giving you the ball and just start saying what was kind of your thoughts on the show and what made you excited to be talking about it on this podcast.

and kind of things about the story. But there's certain

things that I really loved about the series. And the main thing, especially in the beginning, was the idea that, like the main characters aren't humans, and they're they're supposed to be very specifically different from humans, right, and primarily elves but then also, you know, there's there's important Dwarves, and you know, the Harfits who are like proto Hobbits basically right and personally, whenever I've read Fantasy or pretty much watched it on screen or like played, d and

d Elves have always been the characters that I related to, you know, And I mean a small part of that is, like the idea of immortality is greatly appealing to me just because I feel like there's not enough time. There is, there are not enough hours for all the things I want to do, you know. And if I had centuries or millennia like that, that would be such a I wouldn't be like, oh, what am I going to you know,

how am I going to squeeze things in? It would be like, yeah, just you know, well, we'll catch up again in twenty years. I gotta do this thing, you know, just let me master a few skills and then then we'll start talking again.

I wouldn't say I like super closely identify with that as like an important part of my identity or anything, but like, you know, it is like genetically a fact, right. But like I liked how, especially early on, I felt like el Rond and like Galadriel like were not just like normal human characters with poignty ears. I felt like they went out of their way to actually make them

feel more elfish, you know. And you know, in the in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, like in Fellowship of the Ring, especially like Legoaliss was just always a character that just kind of not just like appealed to me, but just like felt like that's the character that I relate to in a lot of ways, you know. And it's this kind of like I feel like Elves are like empathetic and thoughtful and intellectual, but also like

kind of detached, you know. And I I like the idea of having you know, a very different perspective of you know, of character. And it's like when you're dealing with not fantasy, with things directly related to our world. I think it's important to show all different types of people, right, not just in terms of like sort of like checkboxes of idea dentity, although I think that's important as well, but just like different perspectives, right, I think having characters

coming from different perspectives is just really important. And so I thought this show in the beginning largely did a very good job, with the exception of like that scene of like the other elves like teasing her when she was a little kid, that felt a little weird to me, but like overall, early on, I felt like they were really establishing like these are elves. The Elvin experience is broadly different from the human experience, and I enjoy that.

I enjoyed getting to see that centered in a story, right as opposed to you know, you've got the elf and that's kind of not a side character but like a secondary character in a lot of stories.

them as a bipedal species. I am not bipedal. I only have one foot, so I think technically I am actually further from the definition of human than you are. But that that's that's a quibble for another time, as numerous scientists quickly on follow us.

different from humans. And what's happening there is Humanity is set up as the normal by which every other race is measured, and so having so much of the story first of all, be about a bunch of a bunch of hardfoots who have no contact with any of these other races, and then also primarily about human about elves

and dwarves and how they relate to each other. And then when the elves and the humans you relate to each other, it's mostly not about them being different kinds of races, but a lot of it's about like their shared history and a lot of tension because of that history. I really really loved that, and I really it felt very different, I think in many of those same ways

you're saying. And I think especially the thing I really loved is that in a lot of fantasy and especially a lot of science fiction, and this is true even one of my favorite shows, Babylon Five, but like in Babylon Five, in Star Trek and a lot of these shows, there's kind of a degree of human exceptionalism where it's always like humans are the new on the block, all these older races are out there, but also humans are just so like sometimes it's just our ability to build communities,

or it's that we're just so plucky and that we, you know, will never get knocked down, We'll always get back up and that always or just like for some whatever, you know, the gods or fate or the computers, humans are required for the destiny of the universe or the galaxy.

humans are evil. There's a lot that was going on, and there's a lot of tension in terms of like maybe humanity did because they were getting kicked around by all the other races because they were younger and less powerful, or maybe even if like what the humans did back then was terrible, there's clearly some like discrimination against them, and like I think the humans have some legitimacy to their tension with the elves and the dwarfs, particularly on Numanor,

but it just all felt so much more complex than the way that these stories normally told in a way that I really appreciated, and in a way where like I felt like the character. I felt like the fact that a character was human didn't mean that was the character I was supposed to relate to. Most.

it seems was the implication. But the humans of the Southland like they were on like the wrong side, right, they were on what's his face?

but like also the elves. It kind of feels like the elves were sort of colonizers at the same time. Yeah, you know, yeah, And I think it's unclear when the humans like sprung up.

Newmonorians to be quite so isolationist. I think the implication was supposed to be that there was a whole bunch of backstory that we weren't being told. And here the frustration is actually I think part of kind of maybe it's the price to pay, but I think it's worthwhile

of the of the good stuff we're talking about. It's because the Newminorians aren't the point of view characters glad Trails and the people should come and and you know, the boat captain is Heeldor's father, like they're somewhat but even he is somewhat kind of set aside, and so like I kind of kept feeling like I wished we had time to learn more about the history between the l Numanor and sort of what had happened, because it it sounded like, you know, probably both sides had been

not great but then once the isolation began over a hundreds of years of history, both sides are telling the story their way, and both sides are getting locked into our way is right, and you know, it's just the kind of the way that cycle can come about. Yeah, And I think I think I would.

sense why they were so anti Elf. But it also felt like like there was a scene between the Elf when the Queen of Numenor and Gladriel are kind of confronting each other, and both of them, I'm like, wait, wait, if you just explain yourself like two or three more sentences, all of this hostility can go away, Like okay, we just have to be hostile and try to break each other's plans immediately, Like yeah, but it was frustrating to me. But it felt frustrating in a it didn't feel like

bad writing to me. It felt like there's clearly an established thing as to why these characters acting in this way.

into their point of view. Although I will say, like Muriel like did change her mind, right, I mean she she did get convinced to, you know, go off to war with the you know, which it's funny, like the whole thing of like, you know, Galadriel is like, hey, let's go to war. Let's let's do a war, you know, and it's like kind of as the viewer, it's like, yeah, yeah,

we know that she's right, like get sour on. But like also like I'm not really like, oh yeah, let's go, let's get in our boats and go attack some other land. But at the same time, it's like, you know, there was another group that was attacking that land already, right, you know, so but this is all like through omens and stuff that they so so you know, it's in terms of like the individual characters and like their motivations. To me, that felt very real, It felt very reasonable.

I enjoyed. I would say I enjoyed all the writing like up to up to that point, you know, and then the actual episode where then they did go off. Then I felt like things kind of I had some issues after that, but not not so much issues to like talk about, but just kind of like it wasn't totally my favorite after there, but but I did really enjoy you know, like the politics of it and you know,

some of the backstory. And it's hard though, because it's like, like, how do you tell a compelling story on screen in something that's ostensibly somewhat of an action series and give centuries, if not millennia of history, you know, how do you actually convey all of that in a in a series? And it's like, I'm not sure you need to bring all of that at once now.

just never going to get to show me. Yeah, but of course here, you know, because no one has a deal without how the source material is, or what is conflicting source material or just all of that stuff, it becomes a lot harder, you know, And I think that's yeah, sure, in some ways, I think that's a big reason why, while again I don't love the people who have gotten very vehement in their attacks about it, I can very much understand the frustration because I think it's it's one

thing to say I know the source material, but you're telling me a totally different source material, so I have to just put aside mine and fully accept yours, because yours is deep enough to fully accept. But when it's ignore that source material, except some parts of the source material still fit and some of it will make sense, but we're not gonna fill in all the gaps. But don't fill in the gaps with what you know from the other source material, but maybe from some of it.

Like I can see why that would drive a lot of people utterly crazy and be very frustrating.

without no? Okay, let's stop, you know. And I it's interesting because I feel like one thing that this show accomplished that I feel the the Peter Jackson movies also accomplished to a really strong degree, is this feeling of history, you know, like the feeling that this world is ancient, that there's there's all this backstory, that there's things that

have gone before, you know. And so if it was if it perfectly dovetailed in with all the other stories, I think that would be less of a visual illusion and more of a like, yeah, you can't actually look those things up and make connections. The fact that it is disconnected from that in a in a very real way, where like they can't literally draw on everything, I think is a you know, it's a it's an impediment to giving that level of death in terms of the actual history.

But I do think to some extent they made up for that by giving this this visual depth, right, Like I mean Numanor I think was amazing looking and apparently they like built a whole city basically where you could just like go around the whole.

They're hitting all the hero tropes, they're willing to sacrifice everything. Instead, we start with Gladriel as like, there's some of that to be sure, but there is I think I like, and maybe so differently, I definitely thought like that the people who thought Gladriel was pushing too far were kind of right, like in terms of like the degree she was pushing people, the risks she was taking, the risk she was taking with other people, like she she knew

something that the others didn't, and and like, I don't think she's totally wrong, but I think there was some truth to the idea that she was pushing too far. What was kind of your take on that?

like we won. It's over right, it's done. And they were wrong, but they were it was reasonable for them to believe that, right there was there was a lack of evidence, right right, there was there was no evidence, but she was like she felt it in her heart, like she'd she had some really really weak evidence right that maybe Souron was still you know, around and kicking and doing stuff, but you know, and maybe it could have been like, yeah, okay, maybe look into that more.

I don't know, but I do think being like, hey, let's let's stop doing this whole war thing. It looks like it's done right. We don't have an enemy that we see anywhere, And yeah, I think that was a reasonable perspective for them. Yeah, it's unclear whether she had some kind of like magical sense you know, that that like something wasn't right and that you know, Souron wasn't really gone, or whether she just happened to be right right.

She like basically there was a thing that was like a one in a thousand chance and she was just certain it was true, and it just happened to be true. But like, you know, there just wasn't really evidence to that you know, conclusion, and she just happened to like, guess right basically. So I think she's reasonable in terms of her personally wanting to continue, you know, the search, the struggle. But at the same time, I think you know, it was reasonable for the elf king to be like, yeah,

we're gonna stop doing this. Yeah, like you know, and for the other soldiers to be like, hey, look like this isn't there's nothing out here right, Like we're not gonna just go off and get killed, like looking for someone who we don't even think exists anymore.

all of it. And I think one of the things I think that was most interesting about the show in general is, you know, you and I talk about this a lot about how we like nuance, we like complexity, we don't like just necessarily like very binary good and bad villains. And I feel like this somewhat the way Lord of the Rings did, but even more so, and I mean Peter Jackson versions. Again I don't know the books too well, but even more so I think than

those movies did. This is really kind of trying to have it both ways in a way that I think works because I think what they're doing is being like, yes, there is fundamental evil in this world and it needs to be stopped, but that doesn't mean that all the good guys are actually good guys, and that like that

a lot of the like they're all still people. They're all still have their own agendas and their own fears and their own hopes and dreams, and they're all going to be doing maybe like each of them is going to be doing what is, from their perspective, the best way to fight the fundamental evil that exists in this universe. But that's gonna look different for each of them, and some of them are are gonna think that it's done

and want to go in different directions. And I think that's what maybe overall, one of the things I really loved about the show is how it kind of had that like, yes, there's fundamentally evil out there, but still we can have like glad Reel is fighting the good fight to do, but other people make total sense that they are having some doubts and all the rest.

living things like not cool, dude, right, not cool? Like no, no, you can't do that. That's not okay. So like it was totally reasonable to be like, yeah, I'm gonna do all sorts of things to stop him. But at the same time, it's like, I don't know, I think there's a way of looking at the story also that's like, well, like where did Souron come from? And why did he come to Glaudriel? Like right, it was he physically not manifested, and then he showed up because she had this like

darkness and anger and hatred in her heart. I don't know, maybe that's an interpretation, you know, the whole thing is one thing I'm.

Goth was like, yeah, you're working for me. You don't have any choice about it. And then because I think he said, you know, basically like thank you for destroying more Goth, you know, like and he has this sort of like I'm going to liberate the world from suffering by controlling everyone, by removing free will kind of thing. It seems right, and so like I think he views himself as like the good guy, you know, like he's not like mohaha, ha ha. He's like, no, this is

this is a good thing to do. I mean, I think it's not, you know, but but yeah, I think I think he was. He's like ancient and was a servant of more Goth, and once more Goth was defeated, then he like took over the kind of you know, the family business or whatever, like you know, he was the promoted to head dude basically, but maybe not in this body the whole time, right right, this is just like a current physical manifestation.

Why do And we're told that he's this being of like incredible deceitfulness and temptation and all this, And I think this really showed that to me in a way I hadn't had, like the way he because yeah, I have literally no idea whether he does honestly believe that he can make things better for everybody by taking over, or he's just wanting the power. And that's a great line to get there. And I think it's a part

because it's really good acting and really good writing. But it certainly feels to me like I get why Galadriel came so close to being seduced into it, and I get why a lot of human groups would wind up either, Like you know, this is pure conjecture, but like when you talk about the humans who signed up for the Big War last time, however many thousands of years ago, if this is the guy doing the recruiting for more Goth, I can understand why, you.

mystery to it. And I think the idea is that, you know, he is supposed to be this kind of like disembodied evil, even though I know he takes physical form I believe at the end of a Return of the King, and also you know, in physical form he's defeated by Silder, right, but I guess spoilers for this series, yeah, you know, it's it's funny like how many prequels were coming out all at the same time, but like I

totally lost my thought. Oh yeah, the the kind of like the line of like I'm gonna you know, like basically rule with me, you know, as we like dominate the world. But it's for a good reason. It actually really reminds me of the end of the much the much maligned end of Game of Thrones, yeah, you know, and uh, yeah, here.

think are largely terrible. So you know, I can understand the not the appeal of authoritarianism or of deciding to be the authoritarian oneself, but that's you know, it's very easy to me to be disillusioned with every other option also, you know, and here, yeah, I thought there was like a lot good about that, kind of like him trying to convince her and kind of the whole the whole deceit from the beginning, but then the reveal just really fell flat for me. That's fair that's like they just

really lost me in the last episode. I guess what it was was that once it became clear, I thought it was so obvious that it just it just felt really weird the last episode to me, especially because they had the whole misdirect that I was like, you're not fooling it. We all know that's Gandalf. Come on, come on, it's chilling with some proto Hobbits, Like it's Gandalf.

you know. So yeah, so I got a little misdirected there.

If it's not the rules of the world, then there's a lot more to talk about with Gladio's actions, as well as a dwarf and a human and an elf a thousand years from now or ten thousand years from now or three thousand years from now, whatever it.

I think, Are they lawfully? No, they're I think, yeah, But like this is an or king who basically organizes a bunch of Orcs and actually establishes a state, you know, like a kingdom of Orcs, and you know there's still orcs in the way that orcs are ORCS and D and D. But like there's there's more nuance and intelligence and and there's characters right in a way that they're rarely had been before that, at least in anything I'd seen.

And I think there's been a movement within I think D and D in general to like kind of basically strike from the record the idea that like different races have like different alignments, right, because you know, I mean historically, like speaking of Vri Salvator, like, you know, I loved DRIs Stewarden, right, one of my favorite characters of all time. I really enjoyed the Mental Brands and trilogy. Actually I

guess only one of them, Dug. These are all yeah, yeah, sat in the Forgotten Realms, their Dungeons and Dragons books and like novels, right, And but you know, the whole idea of like drow Elves, you know, the dark Elves being like in general inherently chaotic evil, and then like you know, Drist is like the rare good one. It's like, well that's horrible, yeah, you know, like that's that's that's

not good. And you know, I think there's been this very deliberate move away from that and I think, you know, one of the biggest complaints that I would have of the original, you know, Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was like, you know, the Orcs are basically coded as as black, right, right, I mean, they literally are are darker skin and the you know, none of the humans I think kept dark skin or elves or dwells.

word right, like that's what we say. An orc is like basically like a slur the way it's used, And so I do feel like, you know, the idea is that these were elves that were corrupted by more goth but then he's like, oh, but we killed Sauron, you know, and made ourselves free, and now we're trying to make a homeland for ourselves. And like, you know these humans who had we haven't had good relationships with, like they can get lost or serve us basically, right, there.

still don't know all of the story. I think is the idea, right, that's like we've just heard what this one one person was saying by person.

for the same beings. So like, right, it's hard to put a finger on, but I think where're going all this is like, yeah, that like it's hard to kind of have a definitive understanding of what the Orcs are, but it does certainly seem like they're giving them more characterization and more motivation than just we are mindless evil commanded by Sauruman or Saran.

you've defeated them, you don't murder them all. I don't think there's necessarily an easy answer, right, But like, but yeah, I I think that I don't think we're supposed to hear her speech and like be like, oh, yeah, you you go, you know, No, yeah, I think that was supposed to be like, uh to me.

of beautiful untold stories. But that very clearly comes across in Lord of the Rings, particularly in Fellowship of the Ring, is clearly Gladriel is deeply tempted by the power of the One Ring, but also don't trust doesn't trust herself, you know, think she would be you know, uh a clean you know, beautiful and feared and all should you know, all should love me and despair And like, I watch Gladriel do this, and I'm like, yeah, I buy that

she doesn't trust herself with that much power because like and to be, I was like, Okay, that's actually a really good job of without lampshading it, without really forcing it, you're giving us more of an understanding of why. As she gets older and wiser, she's like, no, no, no, don't give me that ring. That's that's I'm a genocide.

But this whole experience is a pretty good example of why hate people of numanor maybe when bloodthirsty elves show up and want to go with you on a crusade, maybe put on the brakes a bit like I don't feel like the end result of this for the people of Numenor is no, we were wrong. Next time when the the yells a charge in a battle, we should go with them.

be coming soon. Excuse me. That'll so let me just kind of say then instead and I will say, we're gonna do Also, we're gonna get into a little bit of listener feedback after our last ad. But for you, Paul, is there anything else about gladio story or about the kind of stories we get kind of tangential to her in terms of like the human captain from numenor meeting younger steel Door and like his family, any of that stuff that you really wanted to touch on.

don't what are you doing? But at the same time, I think there's this like, I mean, I guess we could talk more about the rings themselves next time when we're talking about Elrond and maybe kill a brimbor or whatever. But like she basically is like, let's go ahead and do that thing first, even though she knows that Halbrand is sourn. So that feels like a very questionable decision.

And I think the idea was we need to make these rings to like sell save the elves essentially, and then we can go fight Souran, although the fact that Souron was the one who was like, hey, uh, why don't you why don't you do this? Why don't you make these seems like it's like, Okay, hold on, let's let's put this plan on hold and and actually talk about everything we know. That seems like a very questionable decision.

And then there's this dual thing of like, you know, if you think that people were distrusting you for stupid, stupid reasons all along, and now you actually might have given them one very good reason to not trust you. But he's like, but like they're gonna be like okay, but that on top of all the other reasons we don't trust.

maybe learned from her mistakes. So I can buy that, as you know here she's a young alf of maybe a thousand something years or whatever. She's a teenager, right exactly. I think this is like twenties. Yeah, and there's like twenties, you know.

I know your favorite topics. But I think you may. Yeah, I say about it because I did a great episode with Rabbi Micah the pop culture Rabbi about the concept of theodicy, the idea of wanting to kill God as gory God butcher does, and some understandable reasons for doing that, the whole idea of like why would God allow suffering, et cetera, and so A fan wrote in, and I believe the title it's spelled DCN, so I believe this is Deacon Stephen Brow wrote in the episode with Rabbi

was wonderful. It is so refreshing to hear modern media treat religion and theology in such a mature and fair fashion. Too often, it seems, media seems to disparage and denigrate religion and theology. Your discussion of theoticy and suffering brought me back to my formation years in the aconate of the Catholic Church. I took a class at Santa Clara University on the theology of suffering. Your discussion with the Rabbi was a master class. As I remember the class,

the nature of suffering was declared a mystery. But in the Catholic Church, suffering is equated often with the way of the Cross. Everyone has a cross to bear in life. That katy preserving and enduring the cross is to accept and work with a cross. Those who avoid or try to deny the cross or left with emptiness and frustration. Also, I just saw the last episode of Daredevil, episode thirteen of season three. At the end of the episode, Matt Murrock explains that he questioned how God could let a

boy go blind. Father Paul explained that life was God's tapestry and people could only view the backside of that tapestry. People only saw the ugly knots and strings. Father Paul tried to explain to met Murdoch that people do not know the will or plan of God, and understanding suffering requires one to remove oneself from the situation and try to see it through God's eye, a very difficult task. Love your show and the discussion of ethics. Peace be

with you, Deacon Stephen Brown. Well, Stephen, thank you so much for writing in I'm really I love hearing different perspectives. I will say your perspective on theology of suffering. I'm not Catholic, and that maybe part of our difference, but also just other things. I definitely have a very different idea of suffering. I think I maybe we went into a lot of that in the episode, but I mostly reject the idea of a god who causes suffering or who is in charge of it, and I have a

very different understanding of the Cross. But I definitely do hear what you're saying, and I appreciate the way you're tying that discussion into what's discussed in Daredevil because of the Yeah, I think in many ways they're wrestling with the same question, which is, if you are a person of faith, and you have a belief in a God who is either all powerful or all knowing, or all good or some combination or of all of them, even explain it, suffering exists in the world. So yeah, I

really appreciate the way frame of those questions. Either, I don't think I agree, but I love the perspective. And I'll now toss it over to someone who pretty much disparages the entire idea of faith, god, religion theology for his expert commentary on this topic, Paul, What's what's your take on his letter?

discriminated against or really disparaged for what they believe. But I don't think that means that like it's unreasonable to criticize those beliefs or basically be like, you know, I

think there are certain beliefs that are very offensive. Yeah, you know, and obviously like thinking that, like certain people don't believe deserve life, Like that's obviously patently offensive to the vast majority of people, right, unfortunately not to all people, but like there's things that are just kind of transparently like these people are like, yeah, well that that's a

that's I don't I don't like that. So I think, to me, like the idea that there is some divine purpose to suffering and that like you just can't understand it because you're human. I've always found deeply offensive, like and it makes me angry, Yeah, and you know I can understand. And then like the like response to that being like, oh, but you just don't understand it. I find just extremely patronizing. And it's like, how do you understand that? I don't understand it. That doesn't you know,

it just doesn't there's no logic there to me. And and so I would say that I am extremely hostile to that point of view, while really trying to make very clear that I'm not hostile to people who hold

that point of view, you know. I mean, like we had a conversation a few episodes ago on one where you know, I think you literally said the words, I don't believe that non human animals' lives have value, which but while also saying that you thought the suffering was was very you know, was bad and should be minimized or limited, and like that is a statement that I think a majority of people share that opinion, and its opinion that is just completely anathema to the way I

see the world, you know, And it's hard for me to hear that and not like be filled with rage, Yeah, you know what I mean, But like, at the same time, like, I love you. You are a great friend of mine.

I think you're an extremely compassionate human being. And I'm not going to be like, oh, I think you're just awful because you have this one point of view that I just am like, no, you know, And and I think that's that's just a real challenge in the world, right because I think like almost anyone, like the like just the vast majority of people, Like if we had a conversation about every single thing, there would be some number of things that would just be like oh, no,

you know, and I know that I hold some opinions that like, I don't know whether you feel the same way to that ext you know, extent, but that that we certainly disagree on. Yeah, you know, yeah, I.

The thing is though that like and so tying all that conversation into this great letter, and again by betting Steven Brow, thank you very much for writing in. Yeah, I think even though I am a person of faith, Paul, I am every word you said about the as I perceive it. Again, I'm not trying to tell everyone else the wrong, but just as I understand faith and as I understand the world, to me, the idea that a God would cause suffering is incredibly offensive, is incredibly patronizing.

I think is a fundamental misreading of the Bible alone any understanding of a compassionate God, but also to me is incredibly dangerous because I think one of the things that we see throughout history, and I think this is exactly Gore's point, is that most of the time it's

people who aren't really suffering. That when the people who are suffering say, hey, wait a minute, why are we suffering but you're not, And those people say, oh no, no, it's because God wants it this way, and because actually you're gonna get your reward in heaven or actually your whole.

I wish I could suffer the way you could. You're suffering makes you holy, right, And I think that I like a lot of that theology was created when Christianity becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire and all of a sudden, a religion that was a religion of the I give a whole the whole school of liberation theology is fundamentally about rejecting that idea in many ways, about saying like, no, like God stands with those on

the underside of history. I'm not gonna go to the old two lecture, but just to say, yeah, I think I would agree with you, Paul. I'm pretty much all of that. That to me, I do believe in God, and I do believe in God who stands with us in the time of suffering and who helps drive us to overcome suffering and to stop suffering. And I think there can be some the ability in your own pain and suffering to see some sacredness of like being able to be in communion with others who suffer, and what

you can learn from that like that. There's a whole other way of looking at theologically that takes some of that idea but I think the idea of like we don't understand why we suffer, but God has a plan, and it's all like, no, that's that's all utter a curse word that I can't say on this, but I just do not agree with that light.

but like one of very few. Yeah, that like I really actually enjoyed and in a character that I felt like I related to a lot, you know, And and so that was a very interesting experience for me.

with it and trying to understand it. And that's what I love about Murderarch is that he is wrestling with it, and that, to me, I think what makes Father Paul such a good character in Matt Murdoch is that he doesn't just say no, Matt, the Catholic Church teaches this, you're wrong. He's like, yeah, that's These are tough questions, you know. And I think it's what Steven said. I think we're all like Stephen, I really appreciate that you're

kind of wrestling with these questions as well. We may be coming to some much different perspectives on it, but like, yeah, these aren't easy to answer questions.

was going to the wrong email address. Well maybe if restate that for the last couple of months, I have switched to a new email address, but I realized it hadn't been switched yet on the Stranded Panda podcast channel. I think I might have said the wrong email address a couple times, and I thought I had it set up to forward, but apparently it wasn't forwarding. So that's why I've been digging back and be like, oh, here's

some feedback from like months ago. But for anyone in the future, it's always Matthew at Vethical Panda dot com. I think I have everything set up now to auto forward, so if you do send it to the Ethical Panda at Gmail, or Superhero Ethics at Gmail or Star Wars Universe podcast at Gmail, it should all forward. But the best way is always Matthew at the Ethical Panda dot com. This one comes from TJ. Stafford, and we've got some time and there's a lot in here, so I didn't

really get a chance to cut these down. But I will say to everyone, I love all the thoughts, I love all the nuance, but if you can make it not more than a page, that would be very helpful couple paragraphs can be great, but TJ wrotes.

knew him knew the truth. If the series doesn't end with Dustin carrying on the leadership with hell Fire, I'll be sorely disappointed. I can go behind that, although the group made even think about rebranding, if they're going to kill off anyone, I think it should have been a main character. But conversely, when I thought they were killing Max,

I was enraged. She was in my top three favorite characters before the season, but within the first couple of episodes of the season, she stole the title and ran away with it. So I had feelings about what happened to her. I was impressed if they were going after a major character, I was distraught that it was her, and therefore very torn about where things ended with her. I'm also wondering if Ashley is going to get her possession plot after all, Maxim's right for the picking due

to her constantly coma to currently comatose state. I'll be sure to ask Ashley that in an upcoming episode. I'm gonna do her. I have so much more to get into, but I guess I should be considered of your time. Yeah, I can edit it if I want to, So I'm just gonna rapid fire a few last thoughts before closing out Russia plot. Still can't make myself care that much, Jonathan Nancy Drama. Iye, roll Papa. I'm glad he's dead after that guy. He needed to suffer more. You and

glad you'll agree on a lot of things. Last thing, do you think Jason is really dead after falling to the rift or do you think he might return Vecna's return as Vecna's funky next season. I'll make myself stop now. I can't wait to hear what you all have to say about these last two episodes, if you can even call them that. Thank you for continuing to create a

platform for us Kee should gush over the things we loved. TJ. Stafford PS My Fantasy league started an online d and D campaign after the first part of the season, but I'm sure the timing that's prely coincidental. Well, I hate that ps because it reminds me and I'm still not in a D and D campaign. I wish I was. But yeah, obviously we have since he TJ wrote this to us before our coverage of the last couple episodes. That coverage is now up. You can find all of that.

But TJ, theres a lot of great questions.

likely we're going to kill them off. And I thought, you know, Eddie's like the whole thing with playing Master of Puppets on the roof of the trailer was amazing. And then they went back through the thing and then him like going off to like it. It felt like okay, and they're doing the thing, but like I knew they were gonna do the thing, so it wasn't as bad.

I don't know, I always find the like the like need to see like a major character killed off like a little and I'm not saying that's necessarily what tj' is saying, but like that's not what I want. Yeah, you know, it's like I don't know, I I don't I don't feel like those steaks are necessarily They're not

necessary to me. The but like, yeah, I agree definitely about oh the Nancy Jonathan enough enough and you know, like and you know, the Russia thing I was fine with, but it also was a little bit like okay, like oh, so you're gonna you're gonna go back into the Okay, so you broke out, then you get brought back, and then you break out and then you go back and then and then you go, Okay.

she just like walked away from his pleading corpse. But yeah, I think I am more in favor of character death than you are, because I do think It's not that I need it, and I certainly don't want it to become formulaic, but I do appreciate when characters die, and I think in some ways, like I think it gave

adies character a wonderful arc. I will say that. And in some ways, I'm kind of glad I'm watching I'm reading this feedback now rather than when TJ first wrote it in because since then there's another TV show that I've been because since then there's another property that I've watched that and Paul and I have talked about, and I want to give my spoilers and something totally different,

but where we've talked about that. Actually, like sometimes having a character just die instead of having like the great heroic moment death is a lot more satisfying, And we were talking about like that sometimes the every character gets to have this like great heroic death where the music swells and they make a brave last stand is kind of frustrating sometimes and like I hadn't thought about it at the time, but the more I think of it, like, yeah,

like I think for Eddie to die during that sequence would make sense, and like the very fact that they're doing it is heroic, but him like being almost about to get out but then being like no, I've got to go back and like save things one more time, and maybe it is actually helpful, but like it's not really clear that it is, and it just it's it was done in such a way of like thirty seconds of build up that you know absolutely in your bones

he's about to die. And I just think if it had just been them like rushing, rushing, rushing, and him like you know, getting dust in one more push and then just out of nowhere, one more thing comes and kills him, like that would have worked a lot better for me.

it's a little bit of a cozy in some ways. Yeah, you know, like it's not it doesn't like it feels like it's not everybody gets killed and there's an unhappy ending horror.

going to be going forward. And that's not a show that I really liked at all, But I do appreciate that early on they made clear that's kind of what they were doing. And as much as the last season wasn't my least favorite season of the ones that I watched, I do empathize with people who had kind of been presented with a series doing one thing and then all

of a sudden, it's doing it a different way. Yeah, and I will say that the series that you were talking about has managed to kill off a lot more characters without really bothering me in the same way that a lot of shows do, because it it feels matter of fact, and it feels like the show set up, no, this is this is how this is gonna work, and so I feel like the expectations were set and stranger things like I don't know, maybe they'll feel like they

need to kill off a main character in the last season. I think that's likely. I don't really like that, but like, you know whatever, I think it also feel different like Bob Newby was in the first season.

it made sense for his character. I think I just don't really know where they really would have gone with him in another season. But but and I get the idea of, like, just short of show just how bad things are going to be in this last season, that

we've got to up the stakes a little bit. But you're right, I feel like if there's a if there's an earned death for another main character next season, I am I will enjoy it, but I certainly don't want it to feel like someone has to die and I will be perfectly okay, Like I will be okay if Max is dead or if Max is possessed. Like I love the character, I love the actress absolutely, but like I'm okay with that. I think they earned it in

this season. But I definitely think like if a character dies next season and it works, sure, but I'm not gonna be angry if the whole gangs arrives.

treated as kind of irrelevant. I think there was less that she died, even though I have a theory like maybe a lot of these people aren't actually dead dead, like they're maybe part of VECNA now, And I think it could be complicated. I do find if you almost kill a character and then you don't, and then you do kill them, that I no think.

for it. And him just running around in Russia for the whole season was like just let him be dead, like that would have been a more powerful story.

the new thing that's replacing Twitter. Someone was promoting the idea of something called tribe social as the thing to replace Twitter, and like the word tribe having a lot of kind of like not kind of appropriating a word from indigenous communities that I don't really love in way a lot of people are not very happy with so rather not go to something all tribe. But you know, the the uh mastered it on. I've heard good things about, but also very complicated things. This other thing the hive.

Maybe we'll check it out, but we'll see. I'll keep you all up to date with that, but most importantly, just send us your feedback. What'd you think? What do you think about all the stuff we talked about today in terms of rings of power? What do you think about the feedback we talked about? Do you want to not hear do you want to hear me and Paul get into more theological discussions or very much not. What's your take on that? Send it all to us. Meanwhile,

Paul is zen Madman. Googling zen man Man, you'll find all the cool things Paul is up to. Paul will be coming out of their cave sometime after November and telling us more about the cool things that are up to. So wait with anticipation to that, and mostly as I well, I was gonna do a whole thing about how thankful I am, but actually I'm recordings if you before Thanksgiving, so come out after Thanksgiving. But I will just say I am just so thankful to you all as fans.

I'm so thankful. I realized this that this podcast has been on the air for six years now and the numbers keep going up. The feedback is great, it has been. I started this podcast had a pretty hard time in

my life, and Paul was incredible help to that. But just getting all the feedback with you and getting to feel like I'm having these conversations with you has really made such a difference for me, and I hope it has made a difference for you, and I hope you enjoy these and so I hope you have a good Thanksgiving.

If you're not in a world where Thanksgiving is given at this point in time, I hope that just do whatever the hell you do in your country, and I hope it's good and you get to enjoying food with friends and family is always a good thing. So I'm totally babbling now and I'm trying to sign off. Zen Man Man, Zen mad Man, Google it the Ethical Panda, google it, Have a good night, have a good day, Peace be with you, have a good day, and everyone's having their own revolution. Focks out.