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Hello and welcome to this rebroadcast episode of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. As I've mentioned, we're on hiatus during September, but we're showing you some of our old episodes that we feel are still relevant to some of the great conversations we've been having lately and other things going on.
In recent episodes, before we went on hiatus, Paul and I were talking about the new Batman show, and so as part of that, we wanted to give you a chance to hear on episode about Batman The Long Halloween. This is one of the classic Batman animated movies, relevant to what's happening with the new show, relevant to the things Paul and I were talking about, and of course relevant now that we've turned the corner into spooky season. Please check it out, and of course, please continue to
be a fan of Superhero Ethics. Thank you so much.
We have spoken.
Hello, Welcome to this episode of the Superhero Ethics Podcast. Today we're talking about a Batman animated story that appeared on HBO, an animated movie based on a lot of people's favorite comic run of Batman The Long Halloween. This story you can see origins of the Dark Night in you can see origins of the Batman with Robert Pattinson and Paul Hoppy and I are gonna be diving into it right after this commercial break.
We have no control over.
Welcome back. This is Matthew host Day. Then pronounce and Paul, this is a story that I know you have wanted to talk about for a while, Batman The Long Halloween. And just to give a quick explanation for folks, this is an animated movie you can find on I think it's an HBO plus primarily. There may be other ways
to get DC movies. DC Animation has been putting out a ton of animated movies, primarily about Batman, some about Superman, some about more of the Justice League in general that aren't they talked about much, but that Paul has really turned me on too. We've been having a lot of fun going through them, and we're going to really have a lot to talk about because it raises some of
the fundamental questions of Batman and the Batman stories. And we'll tell you more about what the story is in a second, but first, Paul, let me just have as an intro, tell me more about like why it was that you loved the story and why you wanted to be what we talked about.
Yeah, so I don't really follow like what's coming out when and stuff like that. But when Lee and I were at her mom's last year, you know, kind of in the middle of moving we technically didn't really live anywhere for like about a month, you know, and we were on our way to Vegas. We were, you know, browsing HBO Max and we're like, oh, there's this is out.
You know, maybe she actually knew it was out because she like reads things in the news and whatever, but right, but so we just put it on and watched it and it was like, oh, this this is really good.
And then it was like, wait, that was part one, and then there's like a part two, and we watched the part two, which you know, conveniently actually came out the same day, which seems like it's interesting that they broke it into two parts, and I guess we could talk about that a little later, But basically, you know, it's it's kind of like a three hour animated movie
that covers the span of a year. You know, from Halloween to Halloween, and I just think it's the type of Batman story that is like my favorite type of Batman story and is fairly different from a large amount of you know, other superhero fiction that we see on screen.
And then just the animation I think is fantastic, and in terms of story, I think DC's animation is overall, like, on average, the best stuff they put out on screen, you know, compared to say television non animated and then like live action films.
And I think a large part of that is because the bar is so much lower in a weird way, and that they're not having to have this constant like first of all, the budget is much lower, so they don't need to justify the huge budget, they don't need to have a huge mass market appeal, and just I think in some ways these movies are really helped by mostly flying under the radar screen because they're not therefore in the you know, well, how does this compare to
the other version of Batman, How does this compare to the Marvel movie that's coming out at the same time, How does this tie in all these things? It just gets to be a story on its own in a really great way.
Yeah, And I mean I think this is what you're saying. But in terms of the bar being lower, I think you mostly mean like, well, like financially right in terms of like how much money something grosses. And I mean, I guess in terms of.
Said the bar is low, I was not quite. I meant. I mean it's more that like the expect the outside expectations that don't really have much to do with the movie itself are mostly not there, right, and and.
Certainly the you know, broader population doesn't have expectations for what, you know, the thing's going to look like. I do think that there are a lot of people who are really into animation DC, and you know specifically animated DC that you know, occasionally something comes along and is highly anticipated and is very disappointing to most people, like say the Killing Joke, which I recently watched a thing about it, and I was like, I was like, I feel like
like they're saying things about the animation. I think the animation was fantastic. Like the the story, you know, there's you know, you can have your issues with the story, sure, you know, and in terms of how it was adapted precisely, but but yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are amongst a smaller group of people, I would say, and you just don't have the same amplitude of you know, the types of reviews that you're going to get and
the types of responses. So I think generally that's like healthier for anything someone's creating right where it's just like, yeah, you get to do your thing. You get to say this is what we want to do. You do it the best you can, and then people will take it as they do, as opposed to you know, having huge expectations. You know, it's like a team that wins a championship and then the next year, you know, if if they're like the runner up, then that's a disappointment somehow.
You know.
It's like I feel like that's how feature films or like blockbusters are often treated. It's like, oh, well, is this a disappointment compared to such and such.
It's like why why is that?
Even the conversation, you know, it's just like can't can't the thing just like live on its own, like is this good? Is it not good?
Do what you do?
Like I do not like it? And so I I that's my very long winded way of saying yes, I agree that I feel like this animation manages to not be a victim of expectations.
And I think one part of that may be that this is a lot more kind of day in the life aspect to this we talked about on the last podcast a little bit in terms of dread. Well, I'm not sure what orders will come out in its right dread, but not even.
The day in the life, but like a year in the life, a year in the life.
But also this is not part of a very fixed continuity, and I think in some ways that really helps it, because like I love the MCU, I do like continuity, but I think part of what has gotten away from is and I think in some ways, like the age
of the Internet makes this harder. But like there used to be a lot of stories where it was okay, we know who these characters are, and because we're going to tell you a story that isn't about a fundamentally change moment in this character's life, it's just kind of about like the character doing the thing the character does, and a lot of other characters doing the things that
those characters do. It's okay that we don't know exactly where this fits in time compared to this other version of the story, or if it a little bit contradicts that version of the story. It's just kind of a standalone story using characters that we know well. I think that's very hard to do in the MCU or like
you know, in the in DC. Now we have to have long conversations about like, well, the Robert Pattinson Batman doesn't exist in the same universe as like the Snyder Verse or like this other thing, and we have specific about it because the animation has never been trying to be part of one whole, unified universe. Like, yes, this movie does tell the hard beat Dent origin story, and it does tell the death of Falcone, but it also doesn't it doesn't make pretensions to sort of be like
a definitive story that everything else has to reference. And I think that really helps it just be its own thing.
Yeah, I agree. I do think that there are basically there are like runs of comics right which will have continuity with each other, and then often they'll have some giant multiverse thing that's like okay, share whatever that like theoretically connects all of them, Like I think DC has like fifty two universes exactly.
Yep.
But you'll get so, you know, and with the animated movies, you got a series of them that you know, there was this one run of them that I didn't love them, you know, but they were kind of all in the same style, and they kind of all had a continuity.
And then there's like the flashpoint story and then you know, then it kind of reverts and then they just start making a new continuity, right, And so you you do get these kind of series, but I don't think there's ever this sense of this is the you know, definitive version of these characters, right. It's it's like this series of interpretations. And you know this story, as you mentioned, the Dark Knight borrowed from it. The Batman borrows from it, right,
quite heavily. I mean I think I somewhat jokingly referred to the Batman movie as the short Halloween, because yes, right, it has so much from this. But it's a week instead of a year, which for a for a live action feature film, I think a week or a day or two or three days I find usually the perfect length of time. I think really extended movies don't work
that well. The reason this works well to me is that, you know, the principal plot revolves around holiday, this like person who murders people on holidays, and each scene or each sequence, basically the movies are broken up into segments that are each kind of like one day, right, and it'll be just a series of of holidays. So it's basically like twelve days played across three hours. So you essentially maybe get twelve fifteen minute segments more or less.
A couple of them are shorter, but yeah, I think the fact that there isn't this weight of continuity on this really lets it breathe more and lets them One of the things I really enjoyed here is that they have so many members of the Rogues Gallery in it, right, and they're able to be bit players and you can kind of do whatever you want with them, and it doesn't feel like, oh, but that's not that character. It's like, no,
that's that's this version of that character. And if I didn't like any of the versions of them, like, it wouldn't have felt like such a big deal. I didn't really dislike any of the versions of them. Particularly, you know, there's a few things about like, well, why is Ivy like always working for someone else, she's like the most powerful of all these people and whatever, you know, Like, so she doesn't have the depth that I'd like to see in her character. But like that's okay, because this
isn't like the Poison Ivy. It's like, it's just Poison Ivy in this one thing and she's a small part of it, and like that's fine. And there's a lot of characters like the Joker, you know, similarly, is this kind of minor character in this story that just it makes it feel like it's Gotham. It makes it feel like there's this depth and there's this breadth without feeling like it's trying to be the defining version of anything. And I just find that really pleasant.
I think that's a really good way to put it. And it kind of addresses something that you and I have always talked about, which is that the part of the problem with these larger, interconnected universes is that it doesn't make sense that a whole bunch of people never
show up. And yet, you know, if you have a story where it would make sense for Captain America to show up for five minutes, but you don't have the budget for Christopher Evans to do you know four days of shooting to get hit those five minutes, it's hard to make it happen. But here you can do that.
And I will fill in the details of what the actual story is in a second, but it's it's as Paul said, there's stuff that's happening, and so at various points in time, different characters make appearances, and in many cases it makes sense why they're showing up for various reasons, or another, as you said, some less something's just because someone involved has hired them, and it's like, oh, okay,
that's fine. But like the Joker was my favorites because the Joker, Like the minute the Joker shows up, a part of me thinks, oh okay, so this is actually a Joker plot on some level, and it's like, no, the Joker's just mad that this other villain is getting so much of the headlines and attention. So the Joker's like, no, I got to try and fix this. I got to try to make it all about me. And it literally winds up just like gas attacking a thing that half
the city is going to be at. Because this is the Joker says like, yeah, there's a fifty percent chance that one of the random people I kill will be this guy, and then that way I don't have I'm not losing the attention. And it fits so perfectly for the Joker, and it gives Batman a chance to deal with a Joker, but it isn't a Joker story and Joker doesn't take over the story.
Yeah, totally. And yeah, and it just does that with a whole lot of characters, right, Yeah.
Do you want to try giving a brief summary of the story and so that we kind of fill things in as we go or do you want me to try to do that.
Yeah, I'll give a brief summary first of all. Just in terms of the feel of the story, I want to say that like, it's a story where Batman does Batman things, but it doesn't really feel like it's a story about Batman doing Batman things, you know, like like big, you know, gadgety, like huge fight scenes and stuff like that's in there, but that's not the focus. It's really it's a mystery detective story. And it's also less of a story about Batman being a great detective and more
about Batman becoming a great detective. And the basic premise is Carmine Falconi is like the big mob boss in the city. And then there's also Maroni, right, who's like
his main competition. And someone kills Falconi's nephew on Halloween, who actually was about to testify against Falconi, right against Carmine, And so the the whole thing has this you know, Harvey Dent, James Gordon Batman, you know, trio of characters doing that whole dark night trying to bring down the Gotham mob, right, which is like this very traditional mafia situation.
And throughout basically throughout the year, on every holiday or on one holiday per month, basically somebody comes and kills someone, usually part of Falcone's crime family, right, or family, actually not even they they kill someone who's who's not really part of the crime family, who he doesn't want to be part of the crime family. But so it feels
like it's this you know, something against Falconi. Right. Meanwhile, there are all of these you know, costumed villains locked up in Arkham, and at various points, various ones of them get free, right. And actually I would say that this is the story of if you look at kind of the over story, the overarching thing. This is the story of how Gotham goes from being you know, basically like a mobbed up town to a costumed villain town.
And there's a clear distinction between the two in a way that's really interesting, especially in the respective of it. In some ways, the traditional kind of like you find him in any you know, Godfather Goodfellow's movie, criminals are a lot worse or a lot scarier in some ways.
Right exactly. And the I think also like you could kind of look at it in the like D and D alignment sort of fashion, where it's like, you know, you've got Harvey Dent and James Gordon, who are trying to be lawful good, right, and then you have organized crime, which is lawful evil. And then you have you know, the Joker and people like the Joker, which is like
chaotic evil. And then you have Batman, who's like chaotic good, but everybody's kind of trying to work with someone else to further their own ends.
And you know Catwoman, who's chaotic. Catwoman who's like somewhere chaotic neutral, chaotic good.
Exactly, and like, yeah, in this she's more of you know, she's more basically just like an anti hero like Batman, you know, right, there are a lot of similarities between this catwoman and the Batman catwoman, and you know, at the end of it, not not to give away necessarily the final story, because I feel like we could kind of cover this without saying, you know who, what the
actual answer to the mystery is. But it's basically, you know, there's a serial killer, and it's about Batman and others trying to figure out who that is while all this other stuff goes on at the same time.
Right, Yeah, I think it's some point I do want to say who it is. I think there's some really interesting after questions around that that gets into some of the things, but we can have kind of like that'll be on a spoiler section later. Okay, that sounds good for sure, because yeah, I think you're right. I want to talk about just some of the different parts of it that I most enjoyed and the questions that kind of raises it. You know, it's funny we're talking about this.
This will probably come out a couple of weeks after our episode on Dread. We have recorded it very recently. After recording the episode on Dread, the movie about I keep wanting to say, Judge dread, but that's the Stone version.
This is the urban version. But the movie deals with a lot of the same issues that does, and it's questions that are very central to what I love about Batman in general, which is all these questions around like, Okay, when you've got a broken justice system and it's almost impossible to fight the criminal elements because of that broken justice system, and that gets in all sorts of sociological analysis,
to be sure, but like what do you do? And I remember I said at one point as I was watching the movie, oh, this is going to be the Dark Knight, because it is set at the beginning while Harvey Dent is still Harvey Dent before anything has happened to him, and it's Harvey and Gordon fighting with each other about how to best take down these mobsters at a time when neither one of the two of them trusts each other, and Batman trying to get in the
middle and them having these interesting conversations about how do we deal with like to what extent can we break the law or can we cross lines in order to take down these people from whom there are no lines and there are no laws, And that part it's very much the Dark Knight story, and then as it continues, you see that it's kind of the Dark Knight story and the Batman Robert Pattinson's story all kind of mixed up together. At least both of those are drawn.
From this, right exactly. So it feels that way when you watch this after seeing those, But it's like, oh, those just actually extracted these particular things from this story.
And so I want to start there with what was your take on so certainly, I think, for one thing, it shows the slow, slow descent of Harvey Dent. Like I love The Dark Knight, Don't get me wrong. I thought the actor who played him was fantastic, Aaron Eckstein. I think it is Eckhart, but it shows in a much slower way and a much more protracted Like you said, over the course of a year, what did you think of Dent in his kind of evolution of a story in this?
In this movie, I feel like this Dent has a little bit more room to develop. It's it's interesting because in terms of run time, this is actually longer than The Dark Knight, right, which feels like a pretty long movie. I think The Dark Knight is like two and a half hours I think that's the or take, right, and this is three hours, you know, but it's two one and a half hour animated films or like one twenty five you know, a minute twenty five, minute twenty seven
or an hour twenty five. Sorry, So it feels like there's more room for some of those things to breathe here. Also, you know, the Dark Knight, Like, I mean, I think Aaron Eckhart did a great performance of Harvey Dent and then two Face than you, but I mean Heath Ledger was just sucking up all the oxygen in the movie,
you know. Like I'm not saying the Joker wasn't great in this, but the Joker doesn't dominate the story, you know, as we've discussed, and there are a lot of characters here, and so I'm not even sure Dent gets more screen time. But the fact that this is spread out over a year, it just you know, so you get to kind of see these snapshots of where Dent is at these different points in time, right it kind of I'm not gonna go there. I was I was going to say something
about the last Jedi, not the last Jed. Jesus, what am I talking about? I was going to say something about Tales of the Jedi and how it to particular
character over several instances. But if you had like twelve instances there, maybe it would have felt different, right, And so here it's like you get these little snapshots of where Harvey is at different points in time, and for me, that really sells it because it it lets there be this transformation that isn't just oh, you know, this one event happened and now all of a sudden he's two Face, right, even though that was kind of in there, that was
his nickname whatever, but like that one kind of goes from like white night straight to like two Face. And this feels like there's always this conflict in there. There's
always some complexity to the character. We don't see all of it, right, it's not the Harvey Dent story, but that is a huge part of the story, and they get to kind of have a little bit more of a slow burn with it, both because of run time and because of the fact that it's like the basically these like you know, there's a dozen snapshots throughout time.
Right, And I think one reason why it really works is that, as you said, it's not just the one moment. It does. There's a lot having to do with his family, but more than anything, instead of thinking about him losing someone, it's about it's really about cynicism and pragmatism and him starting out as this peron. Because one of the first kind of major conflicts is they come a bunch, they come across a whole pile of you know, Falcone's money and like literally just like stacks of cash, and they're
trying to decide what to do with it. And one of the things they realize is if they go buy the books, if they follow the law what they're supposed to do, of like turning it in, there's a very good chance that Falconi is going to intercept that at some point and get it back, because the whole system is so corrupt, right And and Catwoman is kind of there and winds up suggesting what they wind up doing,
which is burning it, which is very illegal. And you can tell that like Dent is the one who winds up coming around to that position, but you can see that he's wrestling with it and that from that, and then as you said, it's almost a year later that he gets you know, attacked and has his face burned away. This time with acid and let's on, is it becoming two face? You just get to see his sort of gradual.
To me, it's such a fundamental question that hits for all of us because it's about lack of faith in a system. You know, he starts out as the character who most thinks, no matter how much corruption there is, no matter how much goodness there how much badness there is, the law and the system of justice and the system of laws will will work if we stick to it. And really the stories about his just losing all.
Faith in that, yeah, and you know, at the beginning, Gordon's like, bend to the rules, don't break them, but you know, and then they just they just break them right away. But but there's this this wrestling with that right and this like you know, I mean, he's a da like his whole career is I am going to use the law to you know, try And mostly it's specifically this this one guy he seems to like really
want to go hard against. But I think overall he's you know, a true believer that that is the way or at least a way, if not the way of trying to to change things right. And you know, we're led to believe things have been quite bad and that there's you know that this cynicism is is shared, you know, by most of the population, and I think really, you know, it ends up kind of coming through that like, yeah,
that maybe that's just not going to work. And you know, by the end of it, there's a question like is I mean, is any of it going to work? You know, is doing things not according to the system? Does does that work? Like you know?
I mean, in that regard, it's almost a much less hopeful story than The Dark Knight is at least and here we're talking about to how The Dark Knight is about like the fall of Harvey Dent, because by the end of The Dark Knight you certainly get the perspective that there's this idea that, like a White Knight fault, the White Knight didn't work, but that actually what Batman does does work and will help and will turn around the city, even if it has to be done in
a way where no one understands what Batman's actually doing or that kind of thing. And then it gets really messy with a third movie. But there is I think an in to me, the end of the Dark Knight movie is much more hopeful, whereas this one is like, okay, well, like Batman, like Harvey Dent has been caught, it's been figured out who Holiday is, and that has its own ending. But I don't have any sense that like Batman has turned things around in the city in any way.
Yeah, definitely not. Right at the end, Batman is there on the rooftop, you know where the bat signal is with Gordon and two face now and he says something like was it worth it? And Twoface says he wants
to know whether the good guys won. Jim and Gordon's like, yes, the good guys won, but we won't know for a very long time if it was worth it, which to me is like saying, yes, we won this battle in terms of we achieved the goal of taking down Carbine Falcone, right, but we won't know for a long time whether or not that's going to make a positive difference for the city.
Right. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. That was the exact language. There's ocurrent to me of the battle versus the war, and it's it's part of a trend that I think I'm really appreciating because you know, we had like decades and decades of like, Batman is good, Batman is helping Gotham, and then you always had wonder like, so, why is Gotham so bad after so many decades of Batman doing this? But that's
the timeline of comics. But then I think you started to get a lot of criticism of Batman starting about like ten years ago, so that was like, well, but Batman is not actually helping. All Batman is doing is punching poor people, which I think there's some legitimacy of those complaints like why doesn't Batman spend his money to make the city better? I think he actually does in a lot of ways, and a lot of those stories don't. It's easy to sort of make that critique without realizing
that that's not quite accurate. But that's the whole other story. But I appreciate that, I think with some of the newer stories, and I think Pattinson's Batman definitely does this, and this Batman does it as well. Instead of it being attacking him himself, it's much more of a like, yeah, Batman is winning these individual battles and he's saving people's lives by doing so, and he is stopping bad people
by doing so, but is he winning the war? And I really appreciate that level, and I think in part that's part of the self reflection that Pattinson is going through in the movie, and that by the end of that movie he kind of is like, well, maybe by giving hope instead of by giving fear, I can win the war in a different way. And I this movie doesn't get to that place of hope by the end, but I guess it sort of does with the trigger treaters.
But I think I really like that about this movie, is that it's giving a chance for him to for him to win the battle, but for him himself to say, like, I don't know if this is winning the war.
Yeah, And you know, I think I have a lot to say about those particular criticisms, and I I won't get too deep into it, but basically just I think it's always been or for a long time, I think
it's been more complicated than that. But I do think, like, you know, there's there's a thing in the like the very first scene is Falcone trying to get Bruce Wayne to sign on to doing something with him, some business thing, because Falconi and Thomas and Martha Wayne had like done some things like building some hospitals together or whatever that somehow, you know, maybe lent some legitimacy to like the Falconi name, right, but also like you know, built hospitals right like and
and Bruce just responds, you know, I believe in Gotham City. And at the end, Falcone asks the same thing, He's like, do you still believe? And and Batman's like, I do you know? And I guess somehow he knows that's him, oh, because yeah, he basically tells him it's him because of the thing about the coin or whatever. There's there's like a line of dialogue that's shared where he basically tells a dying Falcone that you know, he's Bruce Wayne.
I think and it.
I think there's this idea that like, like Batman does believe in in Gotham and like wants Gotham to be better, but that it's like that it's complicated, and that I think there is some logic to the idea or some truth to the idea that like, you you can't just ignore like violent crime, right, Like you can't just have people going around murdering people and then not do anything to try and make that happen less basically, right, But that also one of the main reasons that there is
as much violent crime as there is or violence. I'm not even gonna say crime, right. The reason there is as much violence as there is is partially because of resources and a lack of resources and the desperation that
comes from having a lack of resources. And so, you know, I think sometimes you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation like in terms of like social programs, and then sometimes you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation in terms of, like, you know,
really harsh policing. And I'm not arguing for the government doing both of those like exactly, but what I'm saying is overall, like, I think you have to find ways to address both the urgent immediate right now, you know, somebody is suffering from violence and the ever present pressing issue of there are resources are not being distributed adequately to everyone.
Basically, Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think the way I've been kind of seeing it more and more, and I think you helped me understand that The Batman the Patentson movie kind of actually
has some of this in it. That I think if the view is we have this broken system, and as part of this broken system, people are getting hurt, people are getting killed, and bad people are doing bad things and getting away with them, and the phrase bad people there is very subjective, obviously, but that one thing that can be helpful is to have a person who is sometimes using violence as a way to protect people and
to stop people from doing bad things. Maybe we just get rid of the whole idea of bad people in general, but just like stopping people from doing bad things and protecting people from bad things happening to them. And I think for too long the thought was if you do that enough, and if you punch the people who are doing the bad things hard enough, they'll stop doing the
bad things and everything will be better. And then the other side of the argument has been, well, but no, you're actually making things worse by punching the bad people and try to save people. And I think the first point is clearly wrong. The second point, I think there's some truth too, but I think goes way too far, and at least where I'm coming down to it, I think you're coming to a smile place is like what Batman is doing is one necessary part of the equation.
There also needs to be wor like what Batman is doing is saying, we've got a bad system and people are being hurt and people are getting away with it, and I'm going to try and within that system, try and make those two things change. And I'm reflecting the fact that those things in the system are a big part excuse mean that those things in the system are a big part of what it makes it hard to
change the system. So that I'm hoping that my protecting more people and stopping more people from doing bad things and maybe giving some people some hope will create room for other people. And maybe I'll help or maybe I'll not. Maybe it's Bruce Wayne who'll do this to actually make the change happen. And it's kind of a V for Vendetta thing of like v can do all the violence to stop things, but it's the people who then have to like actually make the change and do the positive thing.
And I think what I'm coming down to is that kind of a place of like I think Batman can't punch the system until it is better, but Batman can figure things out, do the detective work, do the fighting work, protect people, stop bad things from happening and in so doing, making it possible for maybe him or maybe others to actually make the change, but that those have to be two kind of different things. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes sense, ton of sense, you know, and especially you know, I mean if Batman can stop the you know, stop people from causing harm to others without causing irrevocable harm to those people, right that are attempting to inflict the harm, like, you know, And that's sort of the you know, the difference between like lethal and non lethal. In in comic books, you have non lethal.
In our world, you have less lethal, right, less likely to be lethal, but like in terms of using that sort of violence as opposed to just killing everybody like the punisher would, right, And I think, you know, V for Vendette is a great example, because like V's not going to just take the mask off and then be someone who's like, you know, trying to help solve the other side of the equation, right, whereas Batman can take the mask off and pretend he's just Bruce Wayne and
then probably do a lot of good in theory, you know. Yeah, And I mean, of course, it's not like you can necessarily just use a bunch of money to change everything. But you know, money does help, and I think influence helps more. And I.
Don't think this is a perfect example, and certainly it gets watered down over the many seasons in different directions it goes. But I think Oliver Queen is a good example of how that can work, where at least in the CW show, and I think in some of the
other versions as well. You know, the Arrow or the Green Arrow is doing that kind of Batman work, but then his other persona Oliver Queen is using his money and using his political influence to try and change the system and make the systemic changes so that it's not all the bad things that are happening. And like I think in the Patentson movie, I think we're starting to get there, especially in the way that movie ends. And so yeah, I would love to see more of that
kind of thing. And which is again, let me actually back up your second because my point is I'm not saying that those are therefore better than this. I'm saying what I like about this is I feel like it's much more honest about saying this is what Batman can do.
And there's a whole lot he can't do, and that the reason why the ending of it is so beautiful is that it's Alfred who's kind of saying like, no, but there is hope, Bruce, that what you're doing can create space for other people to do that, and that the fact that the kids are going back trick or treating again is the proof of that in a really great way.
Yeah, exactly exactly, and it does. There is a thing about you know, I think Batman saying like, I think Batman, can you know, make a difference or something like that, or still he says something and then Alfred's like, I you know, I think the same is true of Bruce, Wayne, right and h and yeah, you're right with the trick or treaters at the end, it does. It does have that that that feel of like, oh, maybe you know, maybe there is some some hope for this city based.
Yeah.
I also, I think you talked about this at the very beginning in terms of what you liked about it. I think as part of that, it is so important that this is primarily not like the biggest thing Batman does is being a detective. He I don't think we ever see the batmobile or like any kind of super We don't see much like super gadgets or like Batman doing all like the Great Toys, as Jackie Dixon Joker
calls it. Like, mostly what we see Batman do is is figuring out mysteries and occasionally winning fights when he needs to win fights. And I really liked that because I think it also kind of highlights that, like, in many ways, the biggest thing that Batman can do is not just win fights with violence and cool toys and show off, but is can dig into the things no one else wants to dig into and figure things out.
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean it's it's interesting because most of the story is about mobsters of one type or another, or various criminals, right, getting.
Killed or in cops and DA's yeah, and cops.
And DA's no art, DA's killed in this.
I mean, Oh, but I just mean that it's it's about Dent in his family as much as it is about about two family, the Dents and the Falcones.
Yeah, but I was I was making a very specific point, which is the violence done is basically violence largely against uh. It is like very specific targeted violence against the Falcone family and associates. Right, It's not about these big plots to destroy all of Gotham. The Joker tries to you know, murder half of the people theoretically, and Batman stops him. But that's like a side note that's usually act three.
Oh yeah, you're right, right, there is no big plot to stop, right.
The big plot to stop is usually the main act. Like in The Batman there's a big plot to stop at the end, because that's how you structure blockbusters. And I feel like there's value in that act. I don't feel like it ruins the movie or anything. And I don't think it's a third act. It's like a seventh act or whatever. I haven't really thought a ton about the exact structure of the whole movie, but I do know that's a thing that a lot of people felt like, eh,
like did we need to do this? And I do actually co sign the view, like no, I don't think
you needed to do that exactly that way, right. I do think it's interesting that here, you know, the most public thing Batman does is save all those people from the Joker, Right, But that's a side note in this story, which I actually find a lot more elegant and interesting, where it's like Batman's trying to solve this mystery of a bunch of you know, criminals mostly getting killed, and you know spoilers, eventually maybe he does, and but he saves like these tons of people from Joker talks in
and like that's a side note, right, that's just like, oh yeah, this happened, And I think that's kind of cool to frame the story that way.
The Big Bad's plan is to eventually kill the last of the mobsters, and it works like the Big bed that was the thing the Big Bad wants to do.
Do you want to actually get to the spoiler section? Now?
Yeah, I was thinking let's do that, So let's just take a quick break and then we're gonna talk about the who Holiday is and some other spoiler stuff and then wrap up right back. All right, so we're back. So yeah, let's start talking about the Big Bad Holiday and who it gets revealed to be because we're now it's spoiler sections going into spoilers. In three to one, Holiday is Gilda Dent, Harvey's wife, which I definitely did
not see coming. What did you think of kind of the way that story wound up playing out?
I thought it was I liked it a lot. I think early on you were briefly supposed to entertain the notion that maybe it was like the Joker or something, because he just escaped at a certain time. But they
were supposed to, oh, it's not him. And at the end of the first one, you were supposed to think it was Alfonso Falcone, Carmin's son, right, who actually was Guilda's first husband, and they had met at Oxford and and she was pregnant, and then they got married, and then Carmine found out and had it annulled and forcibly aborted the you know, the fetus or whatever it was at that stage, which you know that's not pro choice, right, like non consensual abortions are bad, And she.
Uses the words ripped from my womb, and while the word infertility has never stated, Yeah, there's a flought line with Harvey and her that she can't have children. And so I think the idea is that they did it in a way that want to basically like she's unable to get pregnant again or unable to carry a.
Child, right, exactly like they might have you know, hysterectomized or whatever is that a word like, So, so you know this is violence done to her? This isn't you know, a choice of hers anyway.
And for those, by the way, who decided not you don't want to go watch The Louie, which is totally fine, then I think it is very good. But for those who are fine being spoiled but are still listening along, we only learn all this at the very end. Right.
Yes, I will say I definitely knew it was her, Like I watch a lot of mysteries, and there you know, there are things I won't talk about, like how the mystery was kind of presented, but I do think they did a lot of things that are an effective way of of throwing people off the trail, right, which which when you watch a ton of mysteries then often kind of become like meta clues, you know where, Like.
I will also say I watched it well, very high on some anti migraine medicine. I was having trouble following some parts of the plot, so it's pretty possible it was a lot more obvious than I thought.
Fair fair, I wouldn't say that I thought it was obvious. I would say that they did some things that I that I found to be very clear. Mister Rex, like they kept talking about Holiday, oh, him, him, this guy, this guy, and I'm like, they keep saying him, like it can't possibly be a woman. And that's exactly the sort of thing you want to do if the killer is actually a woman, right, And and then you know there's some other things throughout, But yeah, I thought it
was a good mystery. I didn't think from like, you know, the first scene, that it was her. You know, it took a while. I think I solved it before Batman did, but I like that throughout Batman is like, you know, I didn't know that Batman would have to be a
detective to do this basically, right. And then by the end he becomes a good enough detective to solve it right, and no one else does except well, Harvey actually solves it right, and and Harvey actually kills Carmine, right, it's not it's not her who does it.
And then when he gets caught, he takes credit for all of everything that happened, kind of covering for her exactly.
And we don't even know whether Batman tells anyone else at the end because he's basically he's like, I need to know that Holiday is done, and she's like not done. Finished, like that was it. You know, She's she's not like a serial killer who wants to kill a lot of people. She's a person with a vendetta that has been completed, you know. And and so I think at the end
of it, Batman's like, yeah, okay, like you. And I think he sees like like his parents were also killed by Falcone, right, or by their association with him, maybe by Maroney, I'm not sure. And I think it's stated that like nobody knows, right, it's not clear. It's clear that that was the reason they got killed, but it's not clear exactly who did.
It, which I have to make a quick interruption. We do see a flashback to his parents' death, and we saw a hand reach for the pearls and I audibly groaned, But then they drip away, and that's all wes see of the pearls. And I was like, Okay, that's fine, there's no slow motion of pearls. I can deal with that.
Yeah, And we don't even really see them get shot in like full frame, you know, the way it's shot is it. I think it shows their faces and then it shows like Bruce's face, and then it cuts back to Batman in crime Alley which they don't name, and some other family who's like, uh, get away from him, and.
Right, and it's happening while he's on a hallucinogenic drug. So it's much like I don't want to keep seeing that scene, but I feel like, if you're gonna show me that scene, they both earned it in the plot and then also like didn't do it as bad as it normally is. That that was my aside.
We can go back to the b Yeah, yeah, one hundred hundred percent. And you know, I was happy in The Batman where they didn't have that scene right here. I felt like, Okay, if you're gonna do it, that's the way to do it. Cool, moving on, great, And you know, and and because this is an earlier Batman, this is like year two Batman. Right, there's a there's a comic Batman year one, and this is like year
two basically. And yeah, so I think I think Batman like understands like Bruce understands where Gilda is coming from, you know, in terms of this like wanting vengeance and he's chosen a different path, but you know, she's essentially gotten vengeance on all the people that he might have wanted vengeance on right, So you could say he's got like a little bit of a conflict of interest really, and in terms of like letting her walk or maybe letting her walk, we don't even know, but it does
seem like he's just like, Okay, well you did all these you know, you you caused all this harm to all these people. But if you're done now, okay, you know what am I geting to do? What's the point in bringing you in? And you know, and like he just stands there while she's destroying the evidence.
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of You're probably gonna know much more about this than I do, and we don't need to go too into the details. But Dexter is another favorite TV show of both of ours. I think the ending notwithstanding, yes, but where one of the points is like he is someone who, on the one hand, like he wants to kill in order to like, you know, have vendettas and to take out bad people, but for him it also is a compulsion. For him, it is
a compulsion he couldn't just stop. And he comes across as someone who he thinks might be kind of like a partner, both romantically but also in the same way. But what is it revealed eventually is that she had a similar thing. She had a vendetta against a specific group, and once she's finished with that, she no longer needs to kill the way he does. And in some ways I think that that's kind of the question that Batman is trying to get at in that final scene with Gilda,
of like, are you going to do this again? And you're right, we don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if he turns her in, but I think he doesn't because I think what's pretty clear is that he is satisfied that she believes she's not going to do this again, and then he just he doesn't really say anything. He just walks away.
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that to me matches kind of what sort of the lack of the idea of justice being the most important thing, right, the idea being like, the most important thing is what's going to happen next? You know, Okay, we know that you did these things, right, we know that you murdered these people. Are you, you know, a murderer in terms of your actions?
Well?
Sure, yeah, But are you a murderer in terms of your like what you want to do with your life, you know, like dexter Is is compulsively wants to kill, like it's just a thing, right and and so you know his dad from Jericho wants to like find a way for him to channel that in a constructive way that also won't get him in as much trouble, right, And here that's not like who this guilda is as
far as we can tell. I mean, sure, I would think like if someone deeply wrongs her in the future, she's more likely than a random person to then go through some sort of violent vendetta. But all the people that she really had on her list or dead, she crossed off everyone on our list. And it's like, you know, okay, well it doesn't seem like you're going to be causing a lot of harm going forward, so you know, yeah, go live the rest of your life.
I'm so torn on that, because you're right. I think this is kind of what we talked about with with Dread not long ago. Criminal justice can have a number of different approaches, and one approach can be you did a bad thing and so therefore you should be punished, which I think both you and I are like pretty strongly rejecting because it's just to be proven it doesn't work,
and it feeds into the worst impulses. Another is, we want to prevent you from doing future harm, and so therefore we're going to put you in a place where you are incapable of doing future harm, which I think, you know, I think can be very helpful. But also there's like a difference between helping to get someone to a point where they're not going to do harm versus
just locking them away in a cage somewhere. What I think a third thing is that preventing people in society from doing harm in general does involve letting them know that if they do harm and get caught, then something
bad might happen to them. And like, to me, here it kind of goes to the thing you were saying before about how like I fully want to reform the justice system, but I also don't want to say because right now we have a broken police system, we should do nothing about people who do violence to each other until we have a good system to treat them with, you know, like we got to do something about it
still today and now. So I think that's the one part where I stumble a bit, though I do think that they resolve it well because I do think that, like you know, I think a world in which we say, if you do a bad if you kill someone, but then by the time you get caught you can prove you're never gonna do it again. You always get to walk free. Like that's not a good situation. But the problem being that if people think, like, oh, someone else
killed and got away with it. The fact that Harvey Dunn takes responsibility for all those crimes, I think is the one other factor that I think helps Batman be okay with it, because I do think at least that the Batman on some levels, like I said, he's not just gonna say, okay, you're never gonna kill again. I'm going to all of you walk free. But the fact that he both understands where he's coming from, where she's
coming from so much he sympathizes with that. But also I think that someone else has taken credit and so at least in the public's mind, this this this crime has been dealt with, is a part of what allows him to walk back up those stairs. Yeah.
I agree with with that last part for sure. I think in terms of you know, punishment as a means of dissuading people from doing things. I think that's a that's a whole conversation, you know, But I do think here it is definitely true that he is, you know, given that opportunity to not not have someone visibly walking free, right to have the case be closed, as you know,
to face and Harvey took credit. And it's like, okay, well, what's the value in like, he's he's going to be in Arkham as long as Arkham can hold him, which as we all know, is probably not very long. But you know, it doesn't really matter whether he I mean, because he definitely killed Carmine, right, so like, yeah, you know, he'll he'll be in there for a while no matter what.
And then and he also I guess he orchestrated the Arkham prison break as well himself, so even more evidence that it probably won't hold him that long.
Yeah, And and to be clear, to be clear, I'm not saying that like retributive justice helps with prevention, like that's been proven to be very clear. I'm just saying that also like a system of no consequences whatsoever doesn't seem great either, and that just.
Yeah, yeah, I get you. I get you. Yeah, so so I feel like, you know it, Batman kind of gets to have it both ways here right where he he gets to let this person who has been greatly harmed and then done a large amount of harm as well in vengeance for that, he lets to let her walk and then you know, maybe have her second life or third life as this it seems like this this middle one's kind of been like a purgatory of sorts
for her, and like, who knows what she'll do after that? Right, and there is this theme of like a second life
obviously Batman, you know from Bruce Wayne. But there's this this great scene between Harvey Dent just before he becomes two face and Solomon Grundy, who just keeps saying born on a Monday and and like, but then Harvey goes through the whole cycle of like on Tuesday, something else happened, and Wednesday, and then you know he died on Sunday, and then Grundy's like born on a Monday, and he's like a reborn and then then you know, Dent takes off the bandages and now he's two face, and you know,
this is very clearly kind of his his second life and so you know, maybe Guilda can have a second life as whatever else.
You know, I did quite like the character of Luca Grundy, I mean, sorry Solomon BROSI, I mean sorry Solomon Grundy as the Luca Brozi stand in for this, And yeah, I thought that was really the use of that poem was really well done.
Yeah, I don't know you had mentioned that. I mean, I think there's definitely some like nods to the Godfather, as in not to mention, like specifically calling Carmine, you know, the Godfather. But I didn't totally get the the Luca Brazi, you know connection. I mean, he didn't sleep with any fishes. I guess he actually does. He lives in the sewer, So I don't know.
Yeah, maybe I think just in like they put him in a suit and they had him as the kind of like almost nonverbal but big effective killer type.
Yeah, okay, fair, fair, So just more in terms of vibe rather than kind of plot positioning.
I got you.
I feel that.
Yeah. So there's one other thing I want to say about the Guilda thing, and then we can do some last things in the wrap up, which is that I think part of why I didn't see it is like it works very well for the story, and I think if I hadn't gotten really invested in the other version of what we were seeing of her, I would have liked a lot more. But one of the things that is done is that and I think probably some of this is very real, but some of this is to
sell her story throughout the story. Until then, Guilda is very much kind of a shut in and like she's constantly like she's had has obviously like a lot of very down moods, and she doesn't want to go out as much as Harvey does, like be seen in public as much as Harvey does. And I thought it was one of the most beautiful explorations I'd seen of a character going through long term depression and reproductive loss of
some kind. And the way they showed Harvey not like hitting her, not like being terrible to her, but still reacting in the way that I think is very common, but it is actually quite harmful for a person who doesn't quite understand the mental issues that someone else is going through to respond to with them, you know, And
he kind of gaslights her at times. He's kind of like trying to get her to minimize things, and it wasn't Again, it wasn't shown to be like, look, how evil Harvey is to her, so he belongs to everything that's happening to him. But I think it was a way of showing that Harvey is getting so wrapped up and everything else that's going on to him, that part of his fall is that he's really neglecting the emotional needs of his wife and of that part of his life. And I still think a lot of that is true
and a lot of that still works. But knowing that some of that at least was an act, because like you know, she would say like Harvey, I really need to leave, and then a little while later the holiday would kill someone. It was like sort of like, Okay, you gave me one character and then showed that that character was kind of a shadow for the real character, and that's cool. But I really love that first character
you gave us. It was a little sad that that it wasn't taken away, but it definitely was like going back and watching it now, I think I'm gonna have a lot less sincerity of what Gilda is putting out, you know, And I'm a little bummed about that, even though it still makes her a great twist.
I hear you. I did just watch it for the second time, and I'll say, I don't feel like she was putting on an act, you know, Like I do think you know, when she was at one point she's like under police protection or whatever, and she's like, you know, I think she's like, oh, I have to go do this, I have to go do this, and they're like no, no, no, but you know, we can't leave you alone or whatever.
And I think, like, I feel like she's both of those people though, you know, like I think as Holidays, she's not like there's no personality there, right, She's she's going and doing a thing. And I get you that it feels like, you know, you've taken this very specific character and then added this other thing that feels sort of I mean, it definitely doesn't let the first character just be just that, right, right, And and so I feel you there, but always.
I think it's also just the normal representation stuff we talk about of if there hadn't been so few of that first character, I probably wouldn't mind theyr here as much.
Right, Yeah, where it's like it's like, oh, we finally get you know, a representation of this is also a serial killer on holidays. Okay, okay, you know.
But yeah, but it still was a great twist. And I think that's part of why Also I didn't see it coming is because, yeah, the scene where she's with those cops and wants to get off by herself, I think it's probably a lot more suspicious than I gave it credit for.
H Yeah, and then also it's just like from a storytelling perspective, it's like, why is this story giving her so much room?
You know?
I think it's great that it does, and I think it would be great if a story where she wasn't the killer did that. But typically, you know, a comic book story isn't going to focus on you know, the depressed wife of the like third protagonist. You know, like that's that's a that's an unusual choice. And and so to me that probably popped out as well as like an instant like well who's she? Like, you know, like what is what is she? Why is she in this
story so much? Which isn't I don't mean like it would be a bad choice otherwise, I think it would be a great choice. Otherwise it would be very interesting but but it just would be an unusual one. It's it's I wouldn't expect storytellers to go to the that those lengths and funny.
I think in some ways you actually made my point better than I was making it, and also helped me understand how we see the movie a little differently, because to me, Harvey Dent is one hundred percent the main character of this, Like I see it primarily about his and part of that's because I've always been so fascinated with his story, so maybe that's what I glom onto most. But you're right, I thought it was so interesting and
so different that they were giving us her story. Yeah, and I want to I wish we saw more of that, and so that was part of Also, I think the like, oh, that's why you give us her story, not just because you think it's interesting. Okay, that's fine.
Yeah, Yeah, And I do feel like they thought it was interesting enough to be actually the I mean, in
another way, she's the main character, right, Yeah. It's like, sure, it's called Batman The Long Halloween, and a lot of it focuses on, you know, Harvey Dent and him becoming two Face, but like it's a story about serial killer, right, and she's like, in some way, the villain is always the star, right, and I wouldn't I wouldn't even call her a villain, you know, but she's she's definitely the serial killer, you know, she's the one you know who done it, and and so yeah, I think, you know,
I would. I would love to see something similar that's a mystery that also has characters who you wouldn't expect to be as well fleshed out as well fleshed out as she is, who are actually then red herrings, you know. And it's like that's all the when you do a mystery, you can take any character and make them a big deal either because they are.
With a number of members of Falcone's family right.
Exactly, you know, and they none of them I felt got quite as much, but a lot of them got way more than they would in a story that was just, you know, an action story. This wasn't an action story. It was it was a mystery that had action in it.
Right, I think you're right. All right, Well, there's a couple of last things I wanted to touch on and hear from you as well before you wrap up. I was really impressed with with voice casting Jensen Eccles, who is most known for Supernatural and now for the Boys. He's the voice of Batman, and I thought he was very good. And it's also interesting because like when we people talk about who are the Batman, you know, who
are the people who played Batman? Actually never heard his name mentioned in the in the conversation, I think because this is much smaller. The only little I love having Katie Sakoff, who people know from battles for Galactaga and some other things is poison Ivy and some other great people.
And as Bokatan.
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, very much so. The only thing that like, I thought it was a good voice acting, but it just kind of like rubbed me a little bit the wrong way. But again I focus on these things. A lot. Nia Rivera, who a lot of people know from Glee where she really got her start, fortunately has passed away. She was the voice of Selina Kyle of Catwoman, which I thought was great. Nya is Latina or Nia? Someone is dead? Do you say was?
Or is?
I say it was? And you know, I say died violently by drowning, not passed away, but you know, yeah that's me.
Yeah, Nia was Latina and quite dark skinned, and so to have her voice acting a much lighter skin Selena Kyle I didn't love. But I also know that, like we're still going very slowly on that kind of thing, so fair enough. But yeah, other than that, I really love the voice acting and I thought you're right, the animation was just absolutely gorgeous.
Yeah, I mean the first one, at least the first one was dedicated to her, as she died some time between recording the voice and doing the what's it called? Oh and the and the release of the movie.
Yea, quite tragically.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean in terms of I don't know, it's it's interesting because it's like that's also kind of the the opposite of like if you have, you know, a white actor playing a character with darker skin, like that also is going to be I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that this is probably less problematic than that. And it's possible that they basically had the animation and then they cast her.
You know, right, that would yeah, that would make some sense.
But yeah, I thought she was a very good catwoman regardless, and I did feel that.
Who was it?
I felt like Jensen Ackles was kind of trying to do a Kevin Conroy without like trying to do a Kevin Conroy impersonation.
I wondered at first to do it was Conroy because it sounded it definitely sounded like that strong groth, giving very little emotion but not quite there.
Yeah, And I would say, you know, I don't want someone to do an impersonation, but to me, this kind of hit the sweet spot of like feeling like it was in the spirit of the Kevin Conroy Batman without being like, I'm going to try and impersonate Kevin Conroy.
Yeah.
Yeah, And overall I did think the voice acting was excellent and the Yeah, but the animation was just on. I feel like it's on another level from a lot of the other animation that we see from, you know, especially Disney, I guess, particularly in terms of like Star Wars, you know, I mean, there's things in the Star Wars animation that I think are great, like it's the settings and stuff, but in terms of the characters themselves, like this, it feels more to me like a comic book that moves.
You know. Yeah, I think it's very good. Yeah, it ruined me that way of us the Spider Verse. Yeah, you have a very different styles. Any other last things you wanted to bring up before we wrap up?
Uh, yeah, there's there's one more line from Gilda at the end where she says, in the end, I loved him talking about Harvey, but not all of him. And I feel like that kind of parallels some of the Bruce and Selina relationship where because they're like actually together, they are a couple and Catwoman knows who Batman is, but then they're not a couple, and it's like they clearly can't really make it work, but they kind of try, and then then it doesn't work, and then it does,
and you know. There are two more stories that follow
this in the same comics continuity. One is called Catwoman when in Rome and the other one's Batman Dark Victory, and the latter I think is is like a Dick Grayson Robin origin, which I think would be really interesting to see like handled in the same kind of on the same level as this, And I would really like to see the Catwoman one in Rome, which is she like takes a trip to Rome to try and find out what's up with you know her, I guess mostly her mom because Falcone is dead now here and yeah,
and it looks like it's like a week and you know whatever. But unfortunately, you'd have to get a different voice actress, mostly unfortunately because you know, someone died and that sucks, right, But it would be nice to see like a Catwoman story that's like, this is a Catwoman story, you know that's not the halle Berry movie.
Yeah, yeah, because it is that same story from the Batman of Falcone. Was her father right exactly? And she says a name at the very end, would I think is supposed to be the point that that's Selena Kyle's mother's name. Yes, she doesn't even know her mother's name.
Yeah, I think he says Louisa. And when she's at the very end, she's trying to save Sophia, which is I guess her half sister or sister, and she's like Sophia and then Sophia like let's go and falls to her death. But it feels almost like they know each other, you know, like she knows her. Yeah, which was just an interesting like just little thing.
For sure, for sure. Yeah, a couple of little things. I loved. The joker at one point makes a comment that why he has to. Like, why he's so invested in the holiday story is that he, like Batman, loves a good puzzle, right, which is I've never really heard it expressed quite that way, but I really like that is that something that binds the two of them together. Early on we talked about how kind of like this is about Batman kind of learning how to do the
stuff he does, especially detective work. There's a scene where it's pretty clear and Gordon actually says this, like he doesn't use the words good cop, bad cop, but but he basically was like, I thought we had a thing where we were gonna like bluff the violence, and Gordon does the like, yeah, I hope you answer me or else I can't do with Batman. Yeah, And then Batman is like does the no, No, dude, it was a bluff. It was a bluff.
We can't do this Like I thought we were doing a bit here.
Yeah, it was really good. And I also just like, I haven't actually seen this much since the original Godfather, and I think it's very much a reference. Actually, no, it's in Good Fellows where it no, forgive me, this is a bit that I haven't seen since Goodfellas. And then Goodfellows did it in reference to the Godfather, but in both of them, there's a scene where the mobsters
are like making a spaghetti sauce that's really great. Oh yeah, and so having Falcone make a reference to how like you have to get the basil just when it's really fresh to like make the good sauce, I was like, oh I love that, thank you.
Yeah, it just really made me want to some pasta with some like red peppers, like and you know, yeah, definitely.
We're gonna do now, as we're doing for most of the year, is we're gonna wrap up, We're gonna give the outro, and then there's gonna be a bonus section where we talk little bit more about the episode and other things we'd recommend, which if you're a Patreon you get to find out about and so, Paul, before I go into all that, for folks who have following you, what do you want them to know?
I'm Zen Madman in all the places, Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, I've started coaching, writing and creating again, and details and all that are available on my website Zenmadman dot com. Like Matthew, I'm also launching a Patreon and support there will help me spend more of my time making stuff for folks. So if you're heading over to support the Ethical Panda, which you absolutely should do, feel free to stop my mine afterwards. That's awesome.
I'm really glad to hear you getting those things started. And as Paul said, you can find both of us now on Patreon. I'm the Ethical Panda. Paul is Zen Madman, and I know on Zen Madman you're geting a lot of great stuff right here. If you do sign up to be a patron, pretty much any level, you'll get to have the bonus content that we're about to do. We've been having a lot of fun making those, so
I really hope you get to check those out. But for everyone who's going to be stopping here, as you know, the best way to find us on all the places is the Ethical Panda. You can fin us on Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, Twitter and TikTok and the main ones have been focusing on lately. But we do have a discord. We do have a Facebook page and depending on content and generation, I'd be happy to make more things there. So let
us know what you think. This is not a movie a lot of people have seen, but if you have seen it, we'd love to hear it. If you haven't, what do you think about it? You know, wanting to watch it, or what do you think about all the questions we raised about you know, this new idea of who two Faces could be or how you know two Face's origin story or holiday and who Holiday could be and the mystery and what Batman decides to do at
the end. Would love to hear your feedback in thoughts, the Ethical Panda, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, all those places, and the best way to find all that is going to be in the show notes, or if you go to our website, the Ethical Panda dot com. There you'll find all the concient information. You'll find information about all the other podcasts we're doing. We've been doing episode by episode
coverage of The Bad Batch. We have a great episode coming out on the Last of Us with Danielle written in the Star Wars, who's a huge fan of that. Owen is gonna have a uh, she's played the whole video game. I have not, so we're gonna have a great conversation about that. That will be here on this podcast coming soon. All that's gonna be up on the website so thank you so much for listening. If you're a patron, then we will have more for you interest a second for everybody else. Have a great day.