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Riggi are talking about the new Netflix movie Rebel. For a couple of months now, but if you're calling quite a stir, it is a very good movie with a lot of interesting issues that it raises, and Rieky and I are going to talk about it, and this, like a lot of things recently, has been one that Riky suggested. So Riky, let me just kind of start by get your chance to introduce yourself and then talking about why you want to talk about this movie.
Hey, good morning, afternoon evening wherever you are. H Yeah, I just came across this on Netflix and wasn't really sure what it was. Read the description, I thought, okay, I'll give this a shot and really enjoyed it.
And then started to do more.
Research into some of the stuff going on in this movie and the people behind it, and I thought it would be good. It brings up a couple of issues that I think are very good in relation to what we talk about on the show and just very relevant to our society in general. For an action movie, I think that's perfect, right. Most action movies we think of as mindless, but this one just really makes you think.
And I enjoyed that a lot about it.
Yeah, it really does on a couple of levels. Because, first of all, I will say, as someone who's on record is not being a huge fan of fight scenes, the fight scenes in this are incredibly beautifully shot. I think I don't have the problem I often do of not being sure what's going on. I always know what's going on, but also there are times where the action scenes don't give you what you think you're gonna get.
And there's a lot to do with how the like that visual storytelling is explaining that our our protagonist's perspective on violence, which is what we're gonna a part of what we're gonna be talking about. For those who haven't seen it, I would recommend hitting pause and then going to watch it, because we are gonna have to spoil
a bunch of things. I'm trying to spoil the very end, but probably will eventually, but let me kind of give a plot rundown for those who aren't going to see it, or those who sat a little while ago and forgotten it. And again i'd recommend going to see it. But either way, here it is. So our protagonist is a guy named Terry Richmond, and he is his cousin. Mike is in jail and is about to get transferred to state prison
while he is awaiting trial. The problem with all this is that Mike has you know, it is a legit bust. He was caught with drugs planning to distribute, but he had earlier been a witness to another crime. He's supposed to be getting some kind of witness protection or something. He's not, and he sent to state prison. He's going to be killed. So Terry, our protagonist, is riding his bike trying to bring the bail money to the courthouse in this small town of Silver Springs. I think it's called.
It's never said that it's in Louisiana, but it's the accents are of that area, and they constantly are talking about parishes start of county, so I think this is Louisiana. But either way, it's definitely the Deep South. And Terry gets Terry has an altercation with the police while he's on his bike. They search him, they find the cash, and because he is connected to Mike, who is arrested
for drug charges. They assume that well, they make the claim that the money is something that the police should be able to take under what is called civil forfeiture civil asset forfeiture. Some I think we're definitely gonna talk about it a lot and basically take the money. And then a lot of the rest of the movie is about Terry first trying legal avenue and then extra legal avenues to get that money back in order to protect
his cousin Mike by bailing him out of jail. Eventually he fails in that Mike is taken to jail, and Mike dies in jail as was expected, and now the fight is about getting justice and about trying to bring light to the terrible corruption that's happening because they find out that there's actually been this, because they find out that this has been a pattern for some time that the sheriff, who is clearly racist, clearly corrupt, but they can't be, you know, as clearly upfront about that kind
of stuff as they might have been twenty years ago, thirty years ago, and so now it has to be a lot more under the radar through these bureaucracies, through the civil asset forfeiture, and so Terry tries to deal with this. He gets into a couple of altercations where one thing we learn is that he is a former
marine and he taught de escalation. He taught people how to not let fights escalate, but both verbally and also physical actions that are focused on ending a fight, not necessarily winning it in terms of knocking the guard eye out or shooting them. But it's a lot of like disarming people or knocking them down or incapacitating them without aiming to kill them. Although importantly the phrase that's used
is less lethal violence. They don't talk about non lethal violence and will definitely get to that, and so a number of things happen through the course of the movie. He gets help from a couple of folks, including a court assistant named Summer and another police officer who turns out has kind of been a mole trying to feed information to people about what's happening in the police department. And then in the climactic scene, yep, I was wrong,
watching can spoil the ending. Already he's in a chase. They're trying to get to the hospital, so because he needs a hospital, they're trying to get to a hospital because the cop will help them needs a hospital, but also because he needs to, you know, get the information that he's got on the secret drive to the right authorities. And one of the cops winds up helping them in large part because he's able to kind of make the case of look, you guys are all going to go
to jail. This is all super corrupt, and so in the end, the cops all wind up helping him to take down their boss. But it's left pretty murky as to whether the cops had this, Oh he's in the moral right, we're in the moral wrong moment, or just oh wait, our boss is going down. We want to cover our own asses. In kind of one of my favorite parts of the movie that that's left intentionally vague, and the writer, director and editor has said they left
that intentionally vague. So that's kind of our quick summary of the movie. Ricky, what did I leave out?
Well, let's talk about the creator. It's Jeremy Salnier. I'm giving it a little French twist. Who is I believe most famous for the movie Green Room, which was a twenty fifteen movie about a punk band who plays a show at a Nazi bar and then gets into an altercation and then they have to fight their way out of the titular green room against a bunch of Nazis, including Patrick Stewart.
So it's pretty pretty.
Well known for that, for that kind of cameo or stunt casting, and is well regarded as like another movie in this department of an action movie with some interesting things to say about society. And this was twenty fifteen, when you know, the idea of a Nazi bar was like an underground place and not just that place down the streets, right. So I really like his work, Jeremy Solnier, and I'm curious to explore more after this and learning that he did Green Room.
As for the story, I think you covered it well.
My biggest thing about this was that it's obvious that Terry is the protagonist, the hero of this action movie, and the cops and especially the sheriff played by Don Johnson, the delightful casting. It's clear that they are bad, like they're doing bad things, but it is never done in a way that is, you know, like we would say
mustache twirling like comic book villain. They're definitely bad they're doing and sometimes even evil, like I might say, but you can always kind of see the humanity, yeah, and go like I understand what they're doing, and it's not out of the realm of reality, Like I know, like I read that this is not based on a true story, but it is based on facts and situations that have happened to people, not to the action movie degree, but the civil asset forfeiture, which we'll talk about more later.
It's like definitely something that happens.
I think that's so true. And I think the fact that fairly early on Terry admits Mike did commit the crime for which he was arrested is really important in that because, like to be clear, there are people in jail, especially people of color, men of color, black men, who
did nothing, who were completely framed. But a lot of these things happen because someone makes a dumb mistake and then things escalate and get much worse because of this, or because their family members are trying to navigate the system of Okay, my family members going to jail, I get it, But how do I help them? How do I get money to them in the commissary? How do I help keep them in you know, witness protection or something like that, and yeah, I totally agree, it becomes
it keeps it very human. You understand the pressure that's under the cops are under that party issue is that there's a consent decree in place because of former aspect. Like basically, this is a police department that did commit acts of race violence or something like that in the past, and I think there's a wrongful death suit against them, and so they're out of money, and so they need more money to do this. And again it's not like making them heroes by any means. It's because of their own,
you know, awful practices. This has happened. But that makes the Don Johnson character feel a lot more, you know, like a person, like a real character who I could see in real life, rather than like, moahaha, I just want to have you know, diamond plated you know everything in my cop mansion kind of a thing.
Yeah.
The comical thing that he corruptly spent money on was a Margarito machine.
Yeah.
And they are also stockpiling weapons, which I would argue, like the amount of weapons that they have are not necessary for this size police force, like for this jurisdiction. But I can understand, like the mentality of the police force saying like we want more stuff.
Right, well, and the fact of the fact is that most police departments now have far more. I mean you could argue, like do any police departments need tanks or you know which level, but like, yeah, just like the level of weaponry that this police armer has is way out of proportion what you think they'd need, but it's also not unrealistic to what's happening in our own world.
Yeah, Like when they first show the armory and pan to it, I was like, that's a lot for like I don't like a dozen people, but I do like, like there's a theme. You know, you mentioned less lethal, and I think it was actually Don Johnson's character who's commenting on the weapons they have and said, well, we've had to like shift to buying non lethal weapons or as they want us to call it less lethal because of like legal issues.
So I think that's that was a really.
Good line for a like developing the plot and showing what's happening and why later on Terry uses a bunch.
Of these weapons and you know, does not kill people.
But also like the idea of rubber bullets or they have a shotgun that shoots sandbags, right right, And there have been deaths that have occurred in situations where people have used these you know, police forces have used these weapons on civilians tasers as well, Like there have been deaths from tasers. So I think the acknowledgment that they are not universally non lethal, but they are less lethal is good.
Yeah, honestly, this is this is the language that I've been wanting every time we talk about Daredevil or Batman or any kind of hero who you know makes a claim of I won't kill and I'll save a lot of that for We're gonna do a whole episode on non violence and non lethal violence and things like that. But part of it is because I you know, there's a you can kick a person in the head and kill them. You can punch a person in the stomach, and just because of a freak thing, you can kill them.
Like the idea that there is a clear line of this violence is lethal and this violence absolutely is not is nonsense. And I just love that they both they show him doing everything he can to avoid lethal violence, but I think he's going into it knowing that. Yeah, Like there's a couple of times where he knocks people down and they hit their heads.
Some of the action sequences, especially from Terry's actions, are very brutal. Yeah, and so like I would caution people, like if you're gonna watch it, be aware of that. You know, we're talking about less lethal. But at one point he breaks a man's arm and another man he like punches, He's got him on the ground and he punches him in the face multiple times. Yeah, and it's clear, like from the narrative, like his training, like he knows how to apply force in a way to incapacitate people
and that's what he's trying to do. But I agree, like it's very possible, like from those face punches that like person could have could die in that situation.
Yeah, for sure, And I really appreciate that. Let's talk about this less lethal violence. That's a hard thing to say kind of philosophy he has because clear that he is not only in how he fights, but just everything he does his goals de escalation. How did that strike you because it's not what you normally see from heroes. Yeah.
I enjoyed watching, Like when the action sequences start, he is always doing things like very deliberately in the very first like physical confrontation, he takes the sheriff's pistol, like the sheriff like unholsters his pistol and is getting ready to use it or at least threatened Terry with it, and Terry, you know, disarms him and then very quickly
empties the magazine. Yeah, and then turns the sheriff because like his deputies are coming out with their weapons, and he turns the saraff around, uses him as a shield and walks him forward and is talking to the deputy saying like, hey, you don't want to do this, Like you don't want to do this, Let's talk about this. Like the language he uses, right, is part of the de escalation. He's disarmed the sheriff. He's eliminated that as a lethal weapon in this situation, and throughout the action
sequences he's constantly doing that. Like in a later action sequence, he picks up a shotgun and empties all the shells, and one of the police officers later picks up that shotgun in the conflict in the confusion and tries to shoot Terry and it's empty because he had taken care of that issue.
Yeah, No, it's so well done. And I was reading an article about the movie about how some folks had said that they were kind of disappointed that he doesn't kill the cops, the corrupt cops at the end of the movie, and the director talked about this, and the writer, Jeremy was first name, right, Yeah, son Sonier talked about this and said that he wanted this movie to feel realistic and that the chance of him killing a cop, no matter how corrupt that cop might have been, and
getting away with it in this world is just not a believable thing right now. And he also wanted to focus on how a large part of this guy's goal wasn't just like getting justice in this pure sense, it was survival. It was getting to a place that he could walk away and get back to some semblance of his life. First, could he survive and save his cousin,
and then could he just survive? And I really like that, and it felt like it fit this idea of the non lethality, because you know, and this is kind of the unspoken part, but an essential part of understanding the interactions between police and men of color, but especially black men,
is this assumption of lethality. And it feels like to me, part of what's happening with his character is that he is going he is especially eager to show the cops he is not going to try and use lethal violence, because the fact is that like black men, doing almost anything can be assumed to be a source of lethal violence by the cops, which is then turned into violence against them in racist way. It's like, I'm not saying
anything that's justified and saying that's what happens. And even from the very start when he's on his bicycle, he's just trying to explain the situation, but very quickly the cops go into a you know, we're going to treat you as an adversary, We're gonna treat you as a possible threat. And I think that's the that's the motivation, that that's the world in which he is living this
whole movie, and why he's non violent. His less lethal violence than his de escalation becomes so vitable to who he is.
Yeah, there's a scene where he's driving.
A truck and they pull him over and the officer you know, comes to the window and I think Terry says something like, are my hands okay?
Right?
Do you remember that scene? And the officer says, yep, like ten and two, and that that spoke volumes to me, right, Like that is the understanding between those two characters of like a negotiation. Yeah, because in those situations and of course, like they know who this guy is already, but in a situation where a police officer pulls over a black man, like so often we hear these terrible tragedies of a shooting in that situation because like of these assumptions and
like the feeling of threat. Yeah, it's like, all right, I got my hands on the wheel and ten and two you can see them, I'm not going for a weapon, you know, don't shoot me, because in so many tragic situations that happens.
Yeah, even like.
Someone reaching for you know, their ID and insurance and registration in the glove compartment. It's like the officers like I thought he was going for a gun, right, But that's a normal thing, and like I don't think about like I think about it now, but when I've been pulled over, I haven't worried. I haven't ever worried about that.
And that's like the tragedy of society today, yeah, of racism in society and just the way that they showed that so subtly in that situation without ever I think, like saying anything specifically about it, but like, once you know about it, it's like, oh yeah, Like I can feel this tension for.
Sure, and I'm the same way. It was. One thing watching this movie, it occurred to me that about a month ago I had gotten pulled over my cop. My car's in really bad shape. I've talked about this, and cop wanted I think I had a headlight out or something, and literally, as he's walking up to the window, I, you know, reach over to my coat on the other side of the of the in the passenger seat to
grab my wallet to show him my ID. And then later, like watching this movie, I was thinking about that again and thinking, huh, I probably looked like I was darting into the passenger seat right in the moment that a cop came up to my window. Yeah, maybe this cop was just not worried the way a lot of others are. But probably if I had not been a clearly white person, I don't know if that situation would have gone the
way it did. So yeah, So just there's so many things about this movie that make you kind of just think about what, what are the things you don't have to deal with on a daily basis or do or sure.
And I thought like, as a as an Asian man, like Japanese person, I was really intrigued by the Asian characters in this movie. So Terry gets part of his money from like he had an investment in a Chinese restaurant in his hometown run by mister Liu, and he got like bought out of his investment and got the cash from mister Leu. As you know, he also sold his car to go bail out his cousin, right, And mister Leu is kind of like a background character. He
calls him a couple of times. The first time he calls him and it's like I got I need, I need more money unfortunately, and it's like, yeah, sure, whatever you need, like I'll send it. So like that relationship like right there, you immediately get like how close.
They are, right, because it's not like what do you like?
He he does sound a little surprised, but it's like, yeah, whatever you need, Terry, right, like ten thousand dollars sure. But I also found it funny that the first time he calls, mister Leu puts on like a more like a stronger Asian accent, and then the second time Terry calls, he's speaking like still has a bit of an accent, as you know you you do, but it's speaking more normally, I would say, without the exaggerated accent, and Terry comments on it and he's like, oh, like, you're dropping the
accent now. But then later on he when Terry is injured, he goes to get his wound fixed up because mister Liu, it turns out, was like a field medic in the Korean War. Yeah, and the character of Summer when she hears that, says thank you for your service, and they, like all of them look at each other. Terry says, mister Liu is Chinese. He was fighting for the other side.
Yeah. It's such a beautiful moment, and everything about that relationship I love because Summer is part of the Summer's character is that she is very much kind of like the she's younger, she's white, and I think there's supposed to be kind of an She both knows a lot more about the legal system than Terry does, but she's also pretty nic eve about the world in a lot of ways. And I think that moment is a big part of illustrating it. And there's another part of the mister the U story.
That if I can finish the finish this thought.
On that scene, her reaction is also, I thought, very good, says well, I guess it's good that we can like meet in the middle or some something along those lines, like we're all on the same page now.
Yeah, yeah, very much so, because yeah, he he whatever, he was doing it, you know, he you know, conscript in that, you know, he fought for his country in that war and then eventually he came to this country and it's working here. And it's not like this movie is primarily about you know, anti black racism. But if you want to get reminded that, uh, anti Sino and anti Asian racism in general, but specifically anti Sino racism,
anti Chinese racism is such a big thing. Just listen to the conversations about TikTok and all of you like, oh my god, the big bad evil Chinese or coming to get TikTok. Like, there's an awful lot of racism tied into a lot of how that's discussed, and I just love the way that it's so subtly pointed at.
But is a part of this movie as well as because there's one other interaction they have where I think the second time or maybe the third time, that he calls mister Leu, and mister Leu's upset at him, but quickly he realizes he's just upset and Terry's kind of there because again, because these cops are just anybody who is connected to somebody, Like if you get one person who they can arrest as being suspicious of drugs, now they can draw this network and that anyone who is
in any way passing money back and forth will that money might be drug money because they find out that mister Leu had wired money to Terry, and so now there's a police rate on mister Leu's restaurant and some of his assets may get seized. And I think that gets cleared up eventually. But I just thought it was such another brilliant way of saying, oh, yeah, the cops recognize here's another vulnerable person. Here's an immigrant, a Chinese person,
an Asian person who doesn't really understand these things. So maybe we can seize their assets too, or at least throw the fear of God into them so they stop helping.
Yeah, it, Liu is an ally to Terry, like in the most literal sense in this movie, and he is punished for it, right, And then that's what you're saying, is that the racism here isn't just white cops going after a black man, but to break down this network of allyship, to break down people who want to help each other even though they're not the same, and say no, like don't help him. Like if you help him, you're gonna get in trouble too, and you don't want that.
And this is kind of it plays.
Into the the idea of gosh, I'm blanking on the term like the good immigrant.
Oh, the model minority, yes.
Thank you, the model minority, like Asians in America. There's this myth of the model minority, that Asians are the good ones and that if only everyone were more like Asians, like look at how well they do in school and businesses and such.
And that is part of.
This trap, I guess, to stop Asians from identifying as minorities and helping black people or you know, Muslims, you know in this country.
Yeah, so much of the attempts to get rid of DEI and any kind of affirmative action or anything like that in universities in high school specifically, they often aim a lot of it at, like at Asian parents, trying to frame it as like, oh, but your kids are getting punished the same way white kids are.
Yeah, that's a whole action case with Harvard. Yeah, the case was brought forth by Asian families, but it was it was like white lawyers and white like interest groups that funded.
Close exactly exactly. Yeah, And I think we're left to wonder like if Terry had worked for a white businessman and it like co owned a diner or something like that with a white businessman, and then that businessman had helped support him and sent him money. I don't think the cops go after him in the same way they do mister with you. You know, they might depending on who he was.
But but I think like it's it's the I believe it's a deliberate part of the storytelling very much that it's a Chinese.
Restaurant very much. So yeah, yeah, I think so well. And so let's talk more about this idea of civil asset forfeiture because you know, if you watched movies about racist cops in you know, especially the eighties, nineties, two thousands, but even pretty recently, Like often the cops would just be like, oh, you got a lot of money, I'm just gonna put it in the back in my back pocket and just write up that you didn't have any money and call you a liar. Here, though, they're using
this bureaucracy of civil asset forfeiture. Tell us more about that.
So there's a couple of things going on here. There's the concept of criminal asset forfeiture, which is that if you are convicted of a crime, the police or the Department of Justice or whoever can seize your assets, right, and I especially if they are related to the crime. Right,
And I think that makes sense. I'm sure there are ways that that can be fudged and misused, but I think we all understand the concept like, Okay, like you committed a crime, and like these things were used for the crime where we're gained from crime, then we're going to take them from you. That makes sense civil asset forfiture, which is what happens in this movie. Right, Terry is not convicted of a crime. They let him go. He's
not even really accused of a crime. They just say like, oh, well, like you mentioned drugs, like you mentioned your cousins geting drugs, so this could be drug money.
So we're gonna take it, and that's it.
Yeah, that's all I need.
And like, yeah, we can say, like part of it is that he's black, right, that he's a black man, so like that's that's part of the big picture.
But it's it's just like this can happen to anyone.
And when Terry is talking to Summer, the legal clerk, he says, is this legal? And she says, well, it's the law, which is a clever phrasing. And when I was looking it up, a lot of states have eliminated civil asset forfiture as a law, and.
I think more and more are doing so.
And this movie, bringing this issue to light in this way in a popular Netflix movie I think is going hopefully will help, right, you know, bring it to light have discussions like this one where people go, what the heck they can just do this?
And understanding is it was originally designed, as you know, because if you've ever seen a mob movie or something like that, where there's the like, oh, well, we have to get married now, because then I can sign over my assets to you as my wife, and then they can't go after them, and there were folks who were using methods like that to get around criminal asset forfeiture.
And I'm my understanding is there may have been some like good intentions behind creating civil asset forfeiture, but it is just so easily abused and so easily because there is no you don't have to go through any trial process. All you have to do is say I suspect this, and particularly when it comes to drugs, anything that is
touched by that in any way. You know, there have been so many cases for example of you know, people who live with their parents or often their grandparents, and you know, your grandchild is caught with a very low level drug offense, not anything violent, not anything like, you know, beyond just like a little bit of like dealing at their school or something like that, you know, as a fellow student, or you know, dealing on the street, and grandma can lose your house, like and that happens all
the time. And yeah, I just if I told you this is a movie about civil ascid forfeiture and fighting that process, you sounds like the boring bureaucratic thing in the world. But he manages to make this really exciting movie that also highlights how, you know, instead of it being just purely illegal, but where the cops doesn't care. It's like, okay, well the cops are now looking at us, we are under some degree of scrutiny, so we have
to use these legal loopholes and bureaucracy. And I just I thought that was such a powerful part of the movie.
And then negotiations that happen kind of in the early the first half of the movie between Terry and the sheriff about the assets and like, well, can I get
you know this much back? Those are real things that happen that the police forces will negotiate and be like you can have some of it back, like half of it, let's say, for example, and basically like you feel lucky to get that back, right, because in order the problem here is like once they have it, in order for you to get it back through legal means, you have to go through the entire process of the court process,
like hire a lawyer. And meanwhile, like you don't have those assets for like if you're a business owner or something, right, So that's how they get you is they say, well, like it could take you know, twelve months and x legal fees for you to get it back fully, which you know, we fully believe that you you would win in a court case. But how about instead like we just fifty to fifty right?
Right?
And again a lot of people don't have the means or the time and they're just like, okay, yeah, I'll take that deal.
And part of where that also gets confusing is like I think there is some legal justification in for a deal like that, but if you think about it, like I watched that first negotiation scene and they were planning it and the cop winds up double crossing him anyway, But I thought that the minute the guy said okay, how about if you get to keep this amount and I get to keep this amount, that the cop was then going to stand, well, then going to turn around and say, oh, well you just tried to bribe an
officer of the law. Son. Now I have to rescue you. And I say son, because the officer uses that exact language many times, you know, because that's again a thing of like are you saying are you not saying that you'll let the cops keep this amount of money? Is that a bribe to a police officer? Like there's just so many legal hurdles that you have to go through that of course people have no understanding of and so
they get tripped up on so easily. And I also want to talk about this idea of negotiation because one thing that I really love is he's really trying. Terry is really trying to again and again use the system in his favor if he can. He wants to exhaust every legal option, and so one of my favorite parts of the movie is like he goes back into the police office and they're all like, what's going on? And he sits down to report a crime. I don't know,
they're all kind of playing along. I'm like, okay, let's see what happens here. And he says, I want to report that, you know, this much money, forty thousand dollars was stolen from me, And eventually the cops realize he's accusing the cops who took the money through this process of robbing him, which I think he's got a legitimate
thing to do. But of course the cops realize this, and then the chief is like, no, if you continue this, I'm going to rest you for harassing an officer, which is just one more way of like he is filing a completely legitimate complaint, and he has a claim that he was robbed, and maybe a court would say, no, you weren't robbed, it was civil asset forfeiture. But he should be able to have that day in court. And again they're they're saying, no, we're not going to even
allow you to go forward to this. You can't report this is a crime. You've got to get out.
Yeah, I think he says, they're gonna charge him with filing a false police report. Yeah, which it's a true thing like that, it's a true incident, but they can claim it's false. And then again, like you have to go through all the legal hurdles, and I want to.
Say one more thing about I want to say one more thing about these legal hurdles and the way that this movie the cops are using any connection to drugs and the fact that they might have like something over you to shut down your protest, which because they also give Summer a plotline involving this Summer, as they said, is the young woman who's a court clerk who's kind of helping Terry. And one thing that we get revealed, one thing we learned during the movie is that she
has a child. I think it's a son, and she doesn't get to see that child, in part because and again it's never spelled out, it's just kind of hinted at. But we we understand that she had a drug problem at some point in time, and there's this kind of recurring fear of if she gets caught with anything relating to drugs. In the same way, they're able to say, Terry, you're kind of like gently you're kind of like loosely affiliated with drugs. Therefore we're gonna take your money. In
her case, they could say you're loosely affiliated with drugs. Again, that's gonna be justification for permanently losing custody and fight terminating your ability to get back custody now that you're off drugs for a while, now that she's been sober for a while, and at one point that ops go so far as to like physically like hold her down and inject heroin into her as a way because now she can't pass a drug test, and you know, and social and ands again that's used as the threat to
hold over her is you're caught in this drug system and no one will listen when you say it. Wasn't your fault. All they have to say is summer and heroin and congratulations, you've lost custody.
And her job and her job.
Yeah, her boss, the judge, I think, played by James Cromwell. Some delightful casting in this movie.
Yeah.
The summer heroin thing was kind of my least favorite part or storyline in this because it felt a little damsel in distress when she calls Terry up, I'm in trouble because he was. He was gonna leave, right, he was done with this. And this is like pretty much the halfway point of the movie. His cousin unfortunately dies from like a beating he receives in prison from the drugs people. They fly him in a chopper to the hospital.
He dies in the hospital or on the way, and the sheriff actually I don't know if he says I'm sorry, probably does, but gives Terry his money back. It's like a you know, I hope this makes us square, like I'm sorry, your cousin died, right, we should have listened to you.
Here's your money.
Let's just call it even, which is terrible, right, Like that's not the human life is not worth forty thousand dollars. But I found that to be a very compelling scene for the sheriff character, for Don Johnson, and the acting in that scene is superb because I really felt like he this is not what he wanted, right, Like he's he's just looking to make a buck. He didn't he didn't want anyone to die.
And I think what makes the scene so compelling is that he has two conflicting motivations, but he feels them both, and that's it's a reminder that people can do this, which is that I agree with you. I think he is genuinely sorry that this guy got killed and genuinely sorry that he didn't pay attention when the guy said
that his cousin was in danger. But I also think that another instance of someone who was in the custody of this police department dying through neglect on their part, Like that's the whole reason that he's under the supervision to begin with. And he does say to Terry, we're square, which means you're never going to bring this up again.
Yes, And he's dodging accountability for sure.
He's dodging accountability. He's trying to buy Terry's silence. But he also does genuinely feel bad. Yeah, in a way that doesn't justify him, but again, like you said, it makes them a lot more.
Human, Yeah, And I.
Found that really compelling because I think a lot of people of our political affiliation spectrum have certain feelings about police, right and the way that they use the system and the violence in it, and we often there are statements that get made that generalize police in a very negative light, and this, like, this character is definitely a negative, but I think they did a good job of balancing his humanity in a way that you know, he's still the
villain and we still hate him in this movie, but it's like, yeah, like you're still a human being. And I think that is that that was an important piece of this puzzle in making this a complete picture.
I wanted to add to that. There are two other cops who kind of get to play kind of important roles, one of whom, as I said, is the one of whom is a cop who Terry thinks is going to be on his side, a black woman and who is said a kind of like they've had a couple of exchanges that indicate that she kind of is not happy with the chiefs racism either. But when he thinks that that cop is on his side, she shows that no,
she is still a cop. And while at the very end of the movie she does turn on her boss, uh, for a lot of the movies, she's not the sympathetic character to Terry that we thought she would be. Mm hm. And the cop who is the cop who turns out has been kind of the mole, feeding summer information about what's happening and helping them and getting shot in the process is a white guy. And again, I just thought that was a nice way of.
Not just that, but one of the two officers that confronted him initially Oh yeah, that's right, that's right, and took his money, right.
And it's just like a completely like.
Fascinating complex situation, yeah to think about, and the fact that he was already kind of.
Yeah, it's it's like, I feel like we could do a whole episode just on that one cop, because I don't.
Know, he did a bad thing at the beginning, right, right, Like he stole Terry's money. Be a civil ascid for for sure, it's the law, but he stole his money. But then like you look back on it and say, okay, but he was not he wasn't the other guy, Like there's another cop who is with him who is like a big asshole, right, And like you can once you know, you can see how he's like trying to control this situation and maybe in his own way de escalating right to just quote unquote just steal his money.
Right, And the phrase I was just following orders, I think very correctly gets laughed out all the time because like, no, you're supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. You're supposed to know, like you don't go along with the Nazi orders. But if I'm a cop whose only information about the law has come from whatever cop school I went to, and my sheriff and my sheriff and my partner are telling me this thing is this thing called civil asset forfeiture is fully legal, I'm not sure.
In my head, I think about the fact that I'm robbing Terry in this moment, and again, it's not to justify him, it's to make him an angel by any means, but it just it further complicates complicates his character in.
A good way, yeah, in an enjoyable way, Like it would be so it would have been so easy for this movie to just be like comically simple and it's not, and that that's one of the reasons I love this movie.
Agreed, And I'll just say on the Summer plot line, I agree with you that I don't like the damsel in distress place that it goes to, though I am relieved that there's never a hint of romance between these two characters. And again, there's nothing wrong with romance.
Is that that was certainly something that could.
Have happened, definitely, and it's just but it's just refreshing that that it didn't happen, in part because Summer, to me, feels kind of queer coded. Although she has she has an ex husband. Those two things don't negat each other
by any means. But more importantly, just yeah, I don't like the damsel and distressed plot line, but I it's just for me, it was just it was just it's nice seeing here's one more person who because they have been touched by this thing, you know, called drugs, that is just like this big flashing light that she is therefore also implicated and therefore the police feel like they have this control over her, Like there's definitely an extent to which this happens with all crime, but I do
think in that regard, you know, the movie is also commenting on, you know how drugs specifically with like mandatory minimums and all this kind of stuff, you know, their extent to which if if you're a young person of color who gets caught having done something with drugs, the penalty is in many ways and the way you get stuck in the system can be a lot worse than
if you steal a car or something like that. Not always by any means, but but just that there is that drugs adds an additional layer of horror to everything that can happen.
So, Matthew, you touched on this earlier, and I wanted to come back to it because you on this podcast have often said, you know that you don't like action sequences, whether it's live action or animated, when they, you know, when when the action is confusing, and you said that this movie did a really good job of.
Making it clear what was going on. So I kind of wanted to.
Talk about that because it it also kind of ties into the less lethal violence from this character. And in that final confrontation, Terry goes up against I think like maybe half a dozen officers in front of the police station. There's a bunch of parked cars, and he uses the cars as like obstacles and shields and has like shot a couple of smoke grenades to obscure vision.
What what like? How did you feel in that mode? Like you enjoyed it right?
Like as an action sequence, because I, like, I love that scene and it's one of the one of the best action sequences I've seen in recent memory. And I just wanted to talk about that real quick.
Yeah I did, because like, yeah, in that scene, I didn't know exactly what was happening, but it felt like that was the point. You know, there's one thing to have two people fighting and the director make it not clear what's happening, because that's the artistry they're going for, versus in this scene where Terry is very intentionally not letting the cops know what is happening, and so the
scene winds up giving the viewer that same experience. M Okay, So it felt like that that there was a cause for my not understanding in a way that really fit the narrative instead of it just looking cool.
So you yeah, okay, So your confusion is mirroring the confusion of the cops right exactly where are where are are we?
Like? Where where's Terry?
But I do think like it was shot well in a way, like at one point he takes one guy out and then like rolls under a car and the camera like pans and follows him under the car to the other side, or he like takes another guy out, like stuff like that I thought was shot so well. I think what you're you're talking about like when action sequences do quick cuts and shaky cam.
Yeah, you don't even know energy, Yeah.
When you don't even know like who's throwing the punch.
Yeah, I think that is often deliver it because they are trying to hide the fact that their actors are not, you know, stunt people. Yeah, because like they are, they
are trying to keep the faces in shot. But then like maybe the actor is not as adept as the stunt person, like they're stunt double, so they can't do like the complicated sequences, so they kind of have to cut away to like a backshot, so now it's the stunt person and they do the fancy stuff and then they cut back to the face, et cetera.
So I think that's part of it. But I also I do think because I hear that style praised a lot, and I think it.
Becomes stylist, who's doing that?
Get out of here?
Yeah, I mean, I think it is like not to open this can of worms. But I think Zack Snyder is someone who does it all the time. And I'm currently getting inundated with a whole bunch of Zack Snyder fans because of the stuff we said about the Superman movie. And you know, so that is often praised, but also it happens in anime. So I agree with you that it is probably a stylistic choice that happens to cover
up what you're doing with actors and stunt doubles. But I do also think it happened, like my confusion, does happen in anime a lot, or even things like martial arts movies where clearly that people don't need some people, they're doing it mostly themselves.
But like this, this sequence I felt was similar to like John Wick movies where it's like long shots, like wide shots, and this is like Keanu Reeves has been praised for doing a lot of his own stunts and for the way that he carries himself and like carries a weapon like I've seen a lot of people who are gun experts say like, yes, like this is actually how you're supposed to hold and shoot a firearm, not like these ridiculous like one handed you know shots where
you don't have any control of the weapon, right, And I felt the same thing out of Terry Richmond. Aaron Pierre is the actor who we're going to talk about a little more in the bonus section, but I felt like he was carrying a lot of this load. Yeah, in the action sequences, probably doing a lot of his own stunts and stuff like that pays off, I think in a very realistic.
Way for this.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Do more of that please?
Yeah? No, I just thought the action stuff was great. Any have the last thoughts you WoT have on this movie before we go into that member section. I loved it.
I'll just say again, I personally am not too big of a fan of action movies these days, especially the ones that are like gun heavy and go over the top with explosions and all that. So from that perspective, I enjoyed this a lot. If you're similar to me, give this movie a try, because I think it is an enjoyable action movie.
That restrains itself in the best ways.
I mean, in some ways, I would say that this movie is to action movies, as I saw the TV Glow is to horror, and I think both of them fit technically into that slot, but do so many things that you don't really expect in those genres, or maybe for me as a non hohole person with that one, because to me, I kind of was thrown a bit when you first called this movie an action movie, because I don't think about it that way. I think of it as a cop corruption movie where there are a
couple of fight scenes. Yeah, but you're right, there is a lot of a lot more action than you might expect in that kind of genre. So yeah, it's just it just it's a nice thing to check out, and I definitely would suggest it.
If I were going to give it like two genres, I'd say, like action thriller.
Yeah, yeah, thriller. I think is action thriller and make a lot of sense. A couple of other quick housekeeping things before we move on to the bonus section. First of all, First of all, as you probably have heard by now, we did our first episode of the new Bonus Member section. That's gonna be happening where we're talking about core questions of superhero ethics. That first one was
available for everyone. Going forward, they are only available for members, but it's easy to become a member, only five dollars
a month, fifty five dollars a year. All the informations in the show notes, but one thing we also want to let people know is if you're trying to record at the same time every week, which is noon Central Time on Thursdays and then five thirty pm Central Time on Wednesdays for the Star Wars podcast, and whether we're doing regular episodes or bonus member episodes, those recording sessions are always live streamed on YouTube. Again, it's just live
stream YouTube and slash or backslash whatever it is. The Ethical Panda Podcasts, you'll find it link is also on our show notes. Check that out, and next week we'll be recording what will be our members only episode, but it is live stream for everyone. We're talking about a simple issue that I've never brought up before, the question of who are superheroes accountable to? And we will of course be using Marvel's Civil War as somewhat of a
jumping off point. We're talking about a lot of other stories which this question comes up of who watches the watchers if you want to think about it that way, or you know our superheroes cops and do they should they need the oversight that cops have or are they individual? You know, whatever it is, we're gonna be talking about that. If you want to be in the live stream, come
join us. If you want to just send us in questions or thoughts so we're gonna be talking about Send those in Matthew at Thethethical, Pana dot com or any of our social media networks. Send that in. We'll talk about it on air and be happy to answer your questions and discuss your thoughts. So please become a member. Please think about getting an audible membership or buying a lightsaber through our sponsors. Most importantly, though we have spoken