Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcast, Hey there are True Believers. Andy Nelson here from the Marvel Movie Minute Podcast with the rest of the team, mate Wright, Kyle Wilson.
Rob Cabosco, and Matthew Fox.
This is the podcast where we dissect the Marvel Cinematic Universe one minute at a time, exploring every detail of this epic superhero franchise.
From the nods to the comics to the electrifying performances. We've had a blast diving into every aspect of the MCU. Right from the start, we're talking about them having to earn their wizards, and I think we've made a good argument that they do. We have our favorite recurring bits like five stars or spar because every character deserves their moments in the spotlight.
Oh, Kyle, you know, speaking of spotlights, did you know that the term advertisement actually comes from the Latin advertire, meaning to turn toward. That's exactly the kind of fascinating detail we love to uncover on the show.
But it's not all trivia and recurring bits. We also dive deep into the ethico dilemmas our hero's face. Lowki alone provides enough material for a whole season on Superhero Morality, not to mention that I can't wait till we get to Civil War.
In our season.
Looking at Ironman three, we're.
Gonna mix things up a bit.
That's right, Rob and I are your guide, but instead of our usual minute by minute format, we dive into five minutes of the film in each weekly episode.
It's a totally new approach, but one that still allows us to explore all the depth and detail that makes these movies so special, even if Ironman three isn't all that's special.
Hold on, that's where you're wrong, extremists, Shane.
Black, Yeah, would you like to look at the Mandarin? And Maya Hanson?
So, whether you're a diehard Marvel fan or just love deep dives into movies, there's something for everyone on Marvel Movie Minute.
Dude up and join us on this epic audio adventure. You can find us a true story dot FM or by searching Marvel Movie Minute on your favorite podcatcher.
Because in the Marvel Cinematic universe, every minute is packed with excitement.
Enough said, I hope you like Mustard Bye.
Ever, wonder where the devil got his horns?
How about those clove and hoovers for that pitch for it an angel?
No, he was a snake.
No, he's the great red drag. No, he's the beast.
He's the Prince of this world, Prince of Darkness, believes the Prince of dark Good Morning, Star lovelyi'es One of my names is Lester Ryan.
Clark, and I sometimes go by Keenan Dias and.
We're the hosts of the brand new podcast The Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer?
How about Satan? What about just the Devil?
How did the big bad of the Western world end up with so many faces? Join us as we dig up, decipher, and deconstruct the Devil's many forms throughout history.
Take a guided tour with Dante through the Nine Circles of Hell.
Or revisit Satan's angsty bad boy years in Paradise Loss.
Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian contract.
Easier than a ten ninety nine, but with a hell of a lot more fine Prince.
Slither on over to The Devil's Details on True Story FM and join us in the Die of Discussion.
Love and His is wah, didn't Alphatino play him in a movie?
Sure, there wasn't.
Robert didn't. Theres one that was Elizabeth.
He go down to Georgia and some.
Hello and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends say, we're bringing an episode that was actually intended to go out a few weeks earlier, around the time of Thanksgiving here in the United States. We had a couple of technical delays on my part, so it's a little bit past topic, but we still think it's something that's relevant and we want to talk about, and that's a topic
of indigenous Native representation in the stories we love. Riki has been trying for a little while to get me to watch the movie Pray, a movie that I was a lot more interested in kind of the fact that existed than the movie itself. And I'll talk more about that as we get into it and our discussion of that movie, which, for those who don't know, it is
a a Predator style movie. It's very much in the It is a part of the Predator franchise with very much a Predator character, but it's set in what would become the United States that at that point, the native territories that the French were starting to encroach on in the seventeen sixties. And and most of the cast and crew, and most of the cast and and people worked on the movie are themselves Native and and so we're going
to talk about that. We're also going to talk about some other instances of Native American representation and movies, both good and bad, including Dances with Wolves, which is a prettyseminal work in terms of like a marker of you know, how was representation like at the time that that movie was made in the eighties. And we'll talk about that and the good and the bad and some of the
other things that came around it. But Ricky, let me just start by giving you a chance to say hello and then asking you kind of why was Pray a movie you were so excited for me to watch and talk about?
Well, hello, Matthew and listeners. Yeah, I mean for me personally, I love horror as a genre, and the Predator franchise is a science fiction horrorcore and I've been watching these movies for a while and then mostly aren't good, especially when when you get into the crossover Alien Aliens versus Predator.
Prey is arguably.
The best movie in the franchise, you'd have to put it up against the original Predator, and it shares like a mood to it, yeah, right, whereas a lot of the other ones just become gunfests and stuff. There's a real, like one v one like warrior battle element to Prey and the original Predator, you know, once you get down to just Arnold Schwarzenegger, right, and so, like I watched it as a Predator franchise movie, I was like, oh, like this, this is like taking the franchise back in
a good way in my opinion. And then on top of that, the way that they presented the protagonist and the way that it's just feels genuine, I think is what really struck me.
Yeah, I definitely hear that. I want to talk about those elements. I'll just start by saying a little bit about the movie myself. I think I was able to watch this and go a this is one of the best examples I think of this genre, not just Predator itself, but the whole like, you know, a single monster against a single you know, protagonist chasing each other through through an environment. And I'm so happy it got made and I'm so happy for the incredible representation and answer what
that means for Hollywood. And I still don't like Predator movies, because I got to the end of it and I was like, that's it was like if someone made like the absolute best cream of mushroom soup that you could imagine. I would admire the cookery, I would admire how good everything is, and I still wouldn't like cream of mushroom soup.
But I think I was able to really appreciate, like, oh, Okay, they're doing these things with the genre that I think you're right both really honor the genre and and don't change it, but also say like, look, if this is about an alien, aliens would have come to indigenous peoples as well, you know, certainly in our own mythos of like you know, there's lots of Native communities that have myths of beings from other worlds that come. It's not just like white people or you know, whatever it is
that have those kind of ideas. So yeah, I'm and we're not here to talk about the quality of the movie. I think I can easily acknowledge that, Like I think the acting, the cinematography, the way the drama was done is far better than any of the movie is probably including the Arnold one, although that does have a special place in my heart, both because in Arnold Schwartzen and Carl Weathers and as someone who was a lover of
the Box the Rocky movies. That was kind of the merger of my two favorite you know, steroid laden men with incredible muscles movie franchises.
And the classic arm clasp that has been memified, and I think a lot of people don't even recognize or remember that that's where for a while, like I didn't. I was like, wait a minute, what is this from? Like this is familiar, and there's a scene where Arnold and Carl Weathers clasp their arms in greeting, and yeah, and that has become the iconic image.
Yeah, that's funny. I didn't even realize that it is from this, but you're right, And i'ld say one of the things I think is a little bit ironic because actually on a different podcast that talked about the Original Predator a couple of months ago, I think here on the it was the Next Real Film podcast, that original movie does something that is kind of like it is very cynical but kind of brilliant of Hollywood in that they do want to have a big gun fest, and
they do want to have, you know, our American heroes going and killing the commies. But also this was the late eighties when we're supposed to maybe not be so quite gung ho about it. So forgive me spoilers for a movie that's forty years old, thirty years old. There's an early scene in which the heroes go and because they're supposed to be an American basically like gi you know, commando unit, and utterly wipe out this community of locals. And I don't think they ever quite tell you what
Latin American probably Central American nation it is. But this is at a time when US troops were fighting in Honduras, in Guatemala, in Nicaragua, in Panama, like, so it is one of those places probably, and it may will be that they identify it. I don't remember. And so you get the scene of kind of horrific slaughter that probably is an eight year old. I was like, yeah, yeah,
that's great. And then later we realized that the the Carl Weather's character is a CIA operative who actually had fooled Arnold Schwarzenegger into thinking that these were communists, and actually it was just like a Native community in this Latin American country that wasn't fully on board with what the right wing government was doing or some it was
some kind of political machinations. So you both got to have the look, let's cheer as the Americans go and shoot them all up, but then have the moral purity of oh but no, actually this was American CIA doing bad things, so it's okay. So I just wanted to gott to ethically highlight that, both because of the hypocrisy there and the citicism, but also because it was almost I don't think it's ever named, but that was almost definitely a native, like an indigenous community within the Latin
American country that gets slaughtered. So, pulling us back to the movie Prey itself, let's talk about the representation. Tell us more about kind of like who is who is the protagonist and and what went into making this movie.
Yeah, so the main protagonist, the character's name is Nauru and she is played by Amber mid Thunder, who is already maybe or is on the verge of stardom. She was also in the Avatar live action as the Princess of the North, and I think she's in She's in a bunch of upcoming projects and it just seems like on the verge again, like if not already a star and absolutely like this. This movie Prey was released in twenty twenty two and I think has really put her
on the map. The other primary actor is Dakota Beavers, who plays Tabi, her brother, and there are a bunch of other and they are both Native American.
People. Let me see, I have the specific so.
Command they're both part of the Commanche nation.
The characters, yeah, the characters are Commanchi, Ambram, mid Thunder is listed is a bunch of things, primarily Navajo, because like.
This heritage is like not just a set.
Try right, Like there's at this point because of what has happened historically, there's been a lot of crossover.
Dakode of Beavers is.
Okay O Wingey Pueblo, and I hope I have pronounced that accurately.
And then the other.
Important person I think in all of this is one
of the producers of the movie. Jane Myers is Commanchi and Blackfoot, and I feel like her role in this is as important as the performers, if not more so, just just from a like authenticity standpoint, right, Like she was there to make sure that everything looked right, sounded right, that it was authentic to like the commanche experience right, and put you know, if she wasn't aware herself, like putting the the people in charge, like in touch with people.
And I believe this was filmed in Central Canada on native land there and they they went through the proper steps and honored the people in the land and did a commencement upon starting the filming. So like all of that, right, like showing respect to the people that you're portraying, I think is as important to the process as like using native representation in the cast.
I think that is so important, especially because not only is this about like it's one thing to do that in a modern day story, but this is specifically about a story about Native people, the Kamanche people in this story, and it's set in seventeen nineteen, where so not only are you studying a people that is so rarely studied, but also the history of it. You know, it's not just like this person can say, oh, my lived experience
as a commanche person today is this. It's that we're talking to people who have really studied the history and I think it's particularly important because one of the plot there there are white folks who are coming into the land, but it's set in seventeen nineteen. This is just when initial contact between the in this case it's French fur trappers and the Native folks, you know, has maybe started
in the last like thirty to fifty years. And I say that because I mean, we don't have many white people's histories of like history is written by white people of what these folks were like, and the ones we have are probably incredibly untrustworthy. So we're going to do this is about the study of you know, we're what are the native historians, what are the people who've been studying this community? Not this community through the eyes of the white people, because like there is that contact with
the French trappers that becomes a major plot point. But for Marg's part, this is about a community that is fairly untouched by by the white folks who have come to their continent.
Yeah, and that's I think for me, as someone who obviously is not Native, like I don't know for certain, like how authentic this is, right, Like I have to as an audience member, you have to take some of it on trust. And the fact that certain people are involved in this I think gives me that trust. And I don't know, I think that's really important because a lot of the other like primary people I believe are
are are white. But again, like the positioning of Jane Myers, who's like evolved in a lot of Native movie like Native centric movies and TV shows like that to me is like okay, like you are putting someone here specifically like to do a thing that is very important right for this project. And I don't know, I it's very difficult, right, Like we as audience members, I don't it's it's always hard to say, like what is good and what is
bad representation. You have to listen to the people, and for the most part, like the people, like the Native reviewers and critics have said like.
Yeah, this is good.
And one of the things that we didn't mention yet is that there is a dubbed version of this movie available that is dubbed.
In Comanche, right, And.
What I have read is that this is the first time ever in movie history that that has been done.
That That's what I've read as well, and that originally Hulu didn't think that because this is produced by Hulu, I believe, and they did not think that that would be necessary, but that that was requested by a lot of people, and so they wanted putting that out. And even in the the English language version, which one I saw and I'm presuming you saw there are there is
a lot of command she spoken. They switch it. Instead of making a movie that's mostly subtitled, they have those the characters who are who are Commanche speak in English for audience recognition, but even in that one, you'll hear some of the Commanche language.
Yeah, and that's just like a movie conceit right, like right for us as primarily English language speakers, Like we're putting out a movie where they speak in English, right, But to have that Comanche dub available, I think is I mean, it is like by de Finish, groundbreaking. But I also think that it is very important.
M h. I can see that.
And again, like this is a kind of schlocky sci fi horror franchise and they have done what, in my opinion, is like one of the most important you know, native.
Representation and things in movies in years is really interesting.
Yeah, No, I think it's so true. And you you you were kind of alluding to this, but I just want to like outright state you know, there there are times where between you or I are one of our guests, we have a voice on this podcast from the community that is represented in something that we're talking about. That's not the case today. So I don't want to speak completely fore you, but I know myself, I don't have any you know, connection to Native American communities whatsoever in
my own family heritage. And I think that the point you make that this was one episode where part of why we took our time with it is we didn't want to just watch them movie and talk about it. We both wanted to do a lot of research on it. We both wanted to read a lot more about it
because I do. And one of the things I think that makes this even more complicated, and you've seen in terms of like some of the debates that happen over the you know, things like sports mascots that are considered by some people to be racist, like the former name of the Washington football team and things like that, myself being one of the one who thinks that they're racist.
To be clear, because as you mentioned, like the who is in what Native tribe or Native community has become very convoluted, in large part due to American colonialism and the kind of the intentional division of tribes. But also there's become a very politicized idea of who is or who is not part of one political group or another.
And so, for example, like you have people who are part of the officially recognized by the United States government organization of like I think in the case of Florida State University, the Seminole, that those ones are saying they have no problem with Florida State. Those are the ones who are also getting paid quite a lot by Florida
State and others who are against it. I can't claim to comment on which side is which there and which one is right or wrong, but I'm just saying that it gets a lot more complicated than just being able to find one person who says, oh, hey, no, no, no, I'm fine. I thought this movie was fine, or I thought this movie was racist or whatever it is. And in this case, though is as far as I can see, and I think this is what you're saying as well.
It's not just like, oh, we found one commentator. It's fairly universal among both like historians of all backgrounds but also people of the native communities that are being represented here who talk about the authenticity of this movie really meaning something and it being real.
Yeah, absolutely, Like that's that's what I mean. Is like you have to have some trust, right as an audience member, because we don't have that experience, So pay attention to the people who do have the experience and what they say, like whatever it is right, Like there are a lot of issues in the world where you and I want to care about things, but we don't know what the right thing is sometimes, so we have to listen and pay attention and to me a like just baseline as
a movie, as a as a fan of horror, this was an amazing movie. Like it was just well filmed, like well acted, the action sequences were good, all of that m and on top of that, to layer what they have done to present the Comanche people in you know again, like what we believe is an authentic portrayal in this movie is just like doubly good.
No, you're right, that really means a lot. And for folks who want to learn more about this, And so if you allow me to do a brief transition here into the keeping the lights on part of the podcast. There are some great books on commanche history, including one by the cultural consultant for this movie, a guy named Jimmy Arterberry was the one of the research historians that was very involved in the making of Prey. He has a book that he worked on called The Commanche Maker
The Commanche Marker Trees of Texas. That's a very specific one about the marker tree tradition. But there's a number of other great books on commanding history that are often referenced in terms of discussions of this book, in terms of discussion of this movie, I'm going to put the notes into the show notes because if you want to get those books through bookstore dot org, you can throw a little bit of money back to the back to
us and making this podcast. But even better, I think one of the best ways to listen to books is books on tape audiobooks because they're not really on tape anymore, but you know, you get to listen to a book while you're doing a road trip, while you are doing the dishes, if you want something to listen to while you're wrapping present this holiday season. And you can buy individual books through audible dot com, but you can also get a yearly membership. Yearly membership means you get access
to a lot of books for free. You get at least one credit for a book once a month, and that can be for like a ten dollars book or a forty dollars book, doesn't matter, it's one credit. This is a great thing to get for yourself, but also make a wonderful gift. I think it's about one hundred
and twenty dollars for the year. You can buy it monthly installments and if you buy it through our link, you will get and if you buy it and if you buy it through our link, not only do you get this great product that can be a great gift or great for yourself, but you also help to support the podcast. The link is in the show notes. If you go to true Story dot fm, slash Ethical Audible,
you'll get access to it. You won't see anything on the page, but I promise you ere you get the ninety days free package whatever it is once even paying for forty five days, we'll get a little bit of that back. It's a great way to support the podcast. Makes a great gift. Another thing, and I'm mostly can talk about this on the Star Wars podcast, but I can happily announce it here as well. We are now being sponsored by Level up Lightsabers. Level Up Lightsabers is
where I got my lightsabers. They're fantastic company. Neighborhood Master Allen is there, the owner of the company. He was on a podcast episode that we've not been able to at the sound up yet to put up, but hopefully we'll be soon. He has some great thoughts of an Anakin and Star Wars. You've probably seen him on TikTok or discorder TikTok or Twitter places like that. But if you want a lightsaber for Christmas, if you want to
give someone a lightsaber for Christmas, he makes wonderful quality stuff. Again, if you go to true story dot fm, backslat true story dot f again, if you go to true story fm slash level up Lightsaber and buy through there, you won't see it necessarily on the page, but I promise you that's the way it works, and the link is in the show notes. Those are great ways to help support the podcast. To get yourself a great gift for yourself or for someone else, or just because you want
a lightsaber, doesn't matter. Everybody needs a lightsaber, so please give some thoughts to that. Now back to our episode. All right, welcome back. Thank you for allowing us to teeth the lights on a little bit. One other piece of representation to this movie. I think that also should be named. And then I'm curious your thoughts on Riki, because you know the genre better than I. Not only is this the first Predator movie with a native protagonist,
but also the first woman as a protagonist. The movie Predator does not the original movie does not come anywhere close to the Bachtel test. I think there's literally like one or two women in the village who gets slaughtered, and otherwise it's just a tale of boys being boys out in the jungle. And I understand, certainly of the
eighties action movie genre that was fairly common. I know that, like you know, in it's not always the case in horror, but often in horror, if there's a woman protagonist, she's much more of the like scream and run away and have to fight when she has to fight, and that people like you know, Ripley and Alien are less common for you, like, how did it fit or kind of seem like it was standing out for the rest of the genre of having to be a woman character and
a fairly young woman who is seen by her own community as not being the one people are like, oh, yeah, she should go out and do our hunting. She's our best warrior.
I believe you're wrong on the Predator franchise. I want to say Alien Versus Predator. The first one had a woman, you know, that was a very ensemble cast that gets whittled down. But the final girl is the they are called in horror, like Slasher Horror was a black woman, I believe, Okay, but in general, yeah, like it's it's often male dominated.
There was another one.
I can't remember what all of these movies are called, because they're like.
They didn't stick out to you, a cinematic genius.
Well, no, they have like similar names. Okay, here's.
Here Predator, Predator to Alien Versus Predator, Alien Versus Predator, Requiem, Predators, the Predator, and Pray. So they've like taken a very fast and the furious right tack to naming these movies, and that's why I'm like, I can't keep track of like what order they are and which one is specifically which right.
What I read was that this was the first one with a female lead. But it may also be that they're thinking of the Alien Verse, Predators, its own franchise, or you know, who knows how they're categorizing that.
Yeah, but also like this is why, like I categorize this as horror, Like a lot of these movies go into much more action, but this this to me, like and the final girl thing like that is a horror staple versus like action movies like Arnold Schwarzenegg or Sylvester Stallone type things. So in the realm of horror, like the protagonist being a woman and being a strong woman is not.
At all an unusual thing.
Yeah, you talked about them screaming and running away, like that's kind of like a first act thing, but the final act will you know, when they become the final girl. They these horror protagonist women do take agency over the situation and defeat you know, the slasher or whoever through some clever means.
It's not you know, it's not an accident.
And the original Terminator too, like took a similar path of like horror Slasheress where Linda Hamilton Sarah Connor like Reese was was down for the count and she took agency of the situation and killed the terminator.
Right, Okay, that's yeah, I think. I mean, I'll admit I don't know as much about the horror movie genre as I do, like say, action, I think, I like, I've often heard the first of the alien movies referred to and maybe the second one often referred to as horror and that and I think what I often heard is that Sugewarney Weaver's character, ripley Is is kind of an anomaly in the genre. But it sounds like maybe it's not. And so I was thinking of those terms.
Maybe it's not quite as quite as out there, but yeah, that could dectually makes sense.
Yeah, I mean, like.
Gosh, like the Halloween franchise, Jamie like, for example, yeah, like Jamie Lee Curtis, Like she made her name originally as a scream queen, right, like right that the screaming is iconic.
But.
Even at the end of the first movie she defeats Michael Myers and and now like she's just completely become like badass grandma every thing. And again, like that's similar to the turn that Sarah Connor took in the franchise, like she was the damsel in distress. Like through ninety percent of the first movie, right, and but then in terminated to Judgment Day, she was she was buff, and she knew how to, you know, use all the guns and everything, and and was like the Prepper basically.
In that in that movie.
And I think this leads to another thing I really appreciated about this movie, Pray. I think, especially when it is white people trying to tell a movie about another culture, where they're trying to be like, Okay, we don't want to be racist about this anymore, but you often can go kind of where it becomes almost kind of noble savage or you know, some other kind of idealizing a culture to the point of where you're still not really
looking at it. You're looking at it as though, like, oh, we white people are so bad, so everything of this other culture must be great and wonderful and perfect. And again, I think this is a story told by people in the culture, and the fact is that she's treated in very sexist ways by her community, you know, like the guy Warriors, You're like, no, you're just a scrawning girl.
You can't go out and hunt with us. And I like that, you know, because I like this kind of reminder of like, yeah, sexism is sexism, and it's very tied up white supremacy to be sure, but also it's gonna happen in these other communities, you know, and like it.
Not that I like seeing that kind of bad thing and it's not like horrible, but it's just generally like the there's at least one guy who really kind of rips her and someone else he's like, no, no, you have to be protected, And it just was nice that they're not. They weren't to say like everything is perfect and wonderful here. It was just saying like, yeah, this is the culture and what it was like in the early seventeen hundreds.
Yeah.
But by the end of the movie, again, like in kind of typical slasher final girl way, you know, she comes back with I think the scalp of the predator and her drive is like.
Oh okay, yeah, yeah, they accept it.
Seems like they were going to accept her as a leader or you know, like a hunter.
Yeah, I admit, because I'd heard so much about this being a kind of like pre white people culture contact community, I was a little surprised at the inclusion of the French Canadian characters in it. What did you think of their role in the movie, and like why was it necessary?
Uh? Yeah, I'm not sure what they're there for. I kind of maybe to like be bad mm hmm, like villain, like both villain bad but also.
Incompetent, right right.
In order to make Nauru to elevate Hers as the as the final girl, right right, Like in Slashers, you have to have other characters acting in not smart ways and get killed by Jason Vorhiz or who with Michael Myers, Like, oh well, yeah, like they're they're done for. And that's why I like this character is better.
Yeah, I think it's probably mostly that it's a way to provide more bodies. It's a way to provide an like I think one of the hard parts of making a movie like Predator, which part of why I don't always love it but many people do, and that's awesome, is when there's only one antagonist, they don't have henchmen that you can have like small victories during the course
of the movie to get like a high. They don't have like you know, other plots you can and can escape from, especially when this one, like it just wants
to kill you. I think they're mostly there as a plot device because in the movie what ends up happening is that the French fur trappers capture them, and so it provides an escape opportunity and also a kind of moment of them want them being smart enough to figure out how to hide from the predator when the French are not what I did think it was a It felt to me like it was thematic though, in because this is about a community that has been largely untouched
that is now beginning to be invaded by people who see them not as fellow human beings, not as fellow sentient life, but just as you know, potential slaves or potential sexual objects, or potential whatever. And I think that's for me, at least, the message I got of it was that that's very much how the predators see things as well. You know that the predator is also something who's not seeing that like, oh this is fellows aient life. It's oh, these are just animals for us to hunt
and pray and have enjoyment from. Uh that maybe maybe reading too much into the movie, and maybe right, we just needed some more short of bad guys so that we could see how cool the predator was and not think it was one of our heroes getting killed, but that was definitely something I took away from it.
I also think that there's something there's a through line in the franchise of technology, like human technology not.
Working or being enough true.
Right, Like in the original one, Arnold's commandos have machine guns and they fire blindly into the forest when they think, you know, they're being followed by the predator, and they miss because he's invisible, and it shows like the the futileness of these modern weapons. And at the end, Arnold defeats the predator with like maybe like a machete and like setting a trap.
With the like logs.
Yeah, I believe is what happens, like a sharpened log like he walks them.
And they defeat. He also defeats him in part because he realizes that his vision is infra red and he covers himself in mud.
Yeah, so uses the predator's own technology against him, which is even more stark in Prey, right, literally using the predators like laser be mask thinking above against it. So I think that's part of it, is like showing that the French have this over alliance on firearms and how ineffective that.
Is, right, Yeah, I think it's definitely the case, and just kind of this is just none about the reputation all, just like a cool thing. This Predator's tech is not as quite as high tech as the Predator that we see in the Arnold Schwarzenegger and those movies, which because this is three hundred years earlier and clearly they're an alien race that is much more advanced. They have the
ability to travel between the planets and the stars. But yeah, he doesn't have quite the same tech that they do three hundred years later, which made sense.
It's a great attention to detail, ye for the curators of the franchise, and I'm really excited about the franchise. Like a lot of franchises kind of stumble through their sequels and they get worse and worse, and it reaches a point where you have to have some kind of reset of quality otherwise you're just gonna go away, you know. Like the Leprechaun franchise has just like disappeared pretty much, although they keep trying, like they get worse and worse,
so I kind of hope they stop trying. Jason, Like Friday the thirteenth, we haven't had one in a while. That's also like mired in like legal copyright issues.
I mean, I was gonna say, like, I don't think there's anyone who thinks Nightmare on Elm Street twelve or you know, Friday the thirteenth nine is as good as the originals, you know, like.
But there are there are like functional resets where the quality goes up, and that often leads to a resurgence. I really hope that this is the beginning of that for this franchise, and that they are able to do some things and maybe this is the answer, right, like having like historical dramas with a predator, like a predator versus a European night or a Japanese samurai. Yeah, the type of thing, Like I don't know, like maybe that's where they need to go.
Yeah, it could be kind of great if it was just like, all right, we're gonna go to like you know, Middle Ages, Japan, We're gonna go up against like a Zulu warrior in like the seventeen hundreds or something like that, you know, go to someplace in Africa, like, yeah, that could be a lot of fun.
Yeah, because the modern version got really tired because it was just like more guns, like and then ending up with the same like we're gonna beat it with a knife and like trickery, let's just take away the machine guns at this point.
Yeah, I think it's true. I think it's true. So let's switch gears a little bit. Because as part of our conversation about this movie, you know, got us talking about the sort of broader topic of indigen presentation, and it's one that I've talked about a lot, particularly in the movie regarding the movie Echo or the TV show Echo, which I really felt connected to because of the amputation representation.
We did an episode about that about a year ago, which is actually any broadcast in a week or so because we're taking a couple of weeks off around the holidays, so you'll get to hear that episode. But Riki, as you and I were talking about this, we were also talking about kind of like how does this movie compare to the history of looking at a history of way Native Americans have been presented in cinema, in TV and
things like that. And obviously it's a very very awful history of that with like the John Wayne Westerns and Native Americans always seen as this like incredible stereotypical, very little authenticity, just like you know, stealing children and killing women and needing a John Wayne cowboy to go to
deal with them. But we were talking about like some better examples that aren't prey but at least are like steps along the journey, and you mentioned dances with wolves, and I was quite surprised because I think I, like a lot of people remember dances with Wolves as an
example of Hollywood getting Native representation wrong. And I'll talk more about why that is in terms of how I remember it, but you really kind of offered me a very different way of understanding it looking at it and went back and watched it, and you kind of convinced me.
So tell me more about kind of how you see dances with wolves in this story of like in the eighties, native rep was definitely not where it is today and even today still has a long way to go, but the dancing with wolves can actually be seen is kind of a positive step on this journey.
Yeah, for me, Like I used the phrase you're wrong earlier, but this is like there's a podcast called You're Wrong About that deals with like things we think we remember about society or media or whatever, and I really think like we're all wrong about Dances with Wolves, and I blame James Cameron, as I do for a lot of things.
And let me just give a quick reminder to those who either sought many many years ago, or have never seen it, or just don't know about it. Dances with Wolves was a Kevin Costner movie that was very critically acclaimed at the time, but has since been viewed very critically.
It's about him as a white officer in the Union Army who, after the war gets assigned to a post way out in what is now Colorado at that point is still very much kind of really on the border of Native Territory and the United States Territory, and through to a couple of bureaucratic mishaps, he's entirely by himself, and he winds up basically getting adopted by a local Native community and falling in love with a white woman who is also adopted by them because a different Native
community had killed their parents, and he learns to speak their language and become a part of them, and eventually like stand up against the Union soldier, the American soldiers who actually come to try and like defeat this group. It's gotten remembered, though it was very much a let's have a story about Native folks by telling a story about a white person who becomes part of them. And I think therefore has often been seen as like, oh,
it's not good representation. It's a story about a white guy who hangs out with them, so that kind of frames a little bit. And I think there's a lot of other concerns about it, both legitimate and maybe not so much. But with that, let's talk now, Riki about how you see it.
So just to clarify, like when I say I blame James Cameron, I don't. I'm not like strongly like against him, like I enjoyed Terminator too, I enjoyed Aliens, like He's made some good movies. What I'm referring to, obviously is Avatar, the blue alien movie, not The Last Airbender, and he was the writer director of that movie, and it has been mostly derisively called Dances with Wolves in Space or Dances with Wolves with aliens.
Right people, Yeah, And.
I think that that is a somewhat accurate description of the movie, but also does a disservice to the original Dances with Wolves in comparison, because I think what Avatar does is much much worse than like how Dances with Wolves was portrayed Native people and was received at the time, and the impact it had on the industry, and so like, I think a lot of our collective memory is like, oh, well, like Avatar was Dances with Wolves in space, and like Avatar did this thing poorly.
Hence Dances with Wolves did this thing poorly.
And I think that that is just like completely wrong on multiple levels.
I think I hear what you're saying. I will say that I think there's a longer history in between Dances with Wolves and Avatar. We've talked about the movie The Last Samurai, which feels very similar, and you know, but in that one, it's Tom Cruise who gets captured by a samurai community in the nineteenth century and then becomes one of them and becomes even better than any of them. And that movie was often referred to as Dances with Samurai.
So I don't think it's just in Cameron, but yeah, there's this movie has become a touchstone of oh yeah, it's just one more white person goes off to be with this alien, exotic community and and and becomes the exemplary member of them. But I think the kind of what we're getting to, is that that dancing with wolves actually isn't that that that that is a very real trope that happens in Hollywood, But Dancing with Wolves in some ways really subverts that.
Yeah, And obviously, like I have feelings that I will probably talk about for the Last Samurai as well, and part so let's let's like set the the timeline. Dances with Wolves was in nineteen ninety, the Last Samurai was two thousand three, and then Avatar was two thousand and nine, right,
So that's like that's the that's the progression. And I do think like part of it is because Avatar was or still is the number one grossing movie of all time, right that it had such an impact on the movie industry that year and was talked about and everyone watched it.
So that's part of it.
Why it is framed in this way, or like why we remembered in this way and don't remember the Last Samurai as much, I think culturally is that just like Avatar was culturally huge, and then so in that discussion, like Dances with Wolves gets compared and that's why it gets it. It gets remembered in this way. I think without Avatar, if it was just the last samurai. Would we have a better memory of dances with wolves just because the last samurai didn't have that cultural impact?
Maybe I don't know.
I mean I think I heard the term like seven years into beet was referred to as dancing with the namai lama, like dancing with lama Like I definitely heard that term in any other cases. But either way, let's get into why is it you see dancing with wolves as a more positive example of representation, Still not great compared to something like Prey, but at least a lot more positive than some of the other examples we're talking about.
So yeah, I did like a deep dive into the cast the Dances with Wolves. And this is another situation where obviously Kevin Costner is the main star, like he was the writer, director, and it's all about him.
But you look at this cast and you have.
Like all of the native people that he comes into contact with are being played by native performers, right, And some of these names, like Graham Green is the most prolific of them, Like he got an Oscar nomination for his performance in this movie as Kicking Bird, did not win, but he went on to be in a lot of stuff.
What I have here is he was in The Green Mile. He was in.
Diehard three, like the two most prominent ones that I came across, but like a huge resume before this movie. He's a Canadian actor. Before this movie, he was in seven TV shows that I've never heard of because there's a CTV and three movies. And then became became a star, right.
Wes Study, who.
Plays a character that is only listed as toughest Pawnee. That was the try that was opposing them in the movie, opposing like the protagonist tribe.
But Wes Study.
Was only in one movie prior to Dances with Wolves, although it seems to have been a prominent one because several other of the actors were in this movie. It is called Pow Wow Highway, produced by George Harrison of all people. And then after this movie, Wes Dudy went on to be in Last of the Mohicans.
Right where he played Magua, which in both of those movies there's kind of like the good native tribe and the bad one, and in both he's the chief of the bad one. Yeah, which is kind of an interesting thing all to itself. But moving on, he's.
Kint like villain face because he was also in Geronimo. He was in the Street Fighter movie with John Claude van Dam playing Sagat a villain, which is like weird because he's supposed to be tie. But that's another problem, you know, we have with the industry. But west Study was on a New York Times list of twenty five greatest actors of the twenty four century so far. In twenty nineteen, he was honored by the Motion Picture Academy for.
An Honorary Award.
And so again he was in one movie prior to Dances with Wolves and has gone on to become this this performer.
And he does not have a huge part in this, but I will say another movie watch at some point. I don't know how good it's considered to be on representation, but the movie of Dances with the movie of the Last the Mohicans that he starts, he has a much bigger part in that's Daniel de Lewis stars in is phenomenal and he is phenomenal in it.
So and I'm arguably like auditioned for that movie via this role, right like this party, like the Leader of the Enemy yep. And the third major one that I'll mention is Rodney A.
Grant played Wind.
In his Hair, who is Kevin Costner's best friend. Has the very emotional thing at the end where he's standing up on the cliff as there as they're leaving the tribe, and he's like, I am Wind in his Hair, like Dances with Wolves is my friend, Like the very emotional farewell.
Rodier Grant was in two movies prior to this to Dances, and then went on to be in the drama mo movie again, and then was in twenty two episodes of a TV show called Hawkeye, interestingly starring Lee Horsley and Linda Carter wonder Woman.
So from an.
Acting perspective, like this movie gave people a chance and gave them a huge platform. Like Kevin Costman was a star at this point, right like nineteen nineties, right after like all like a field of dreams and he was a star, which is arguably like why he got to
make this movie. And you know he put himself in the center of it, yes, like a kind of white savior ish, but use that platform to elevate these performers, these native performers, and put them on the stage with him and let them shine and then they went on to have these amazing careers and so that to me is like how I view the impact of this movie is, Yes, I think some aspects of it have aged poorly, but
I think things everything should age poorly. Yeah, because that's what progress means, is that we get better and we get a movie like Prey where now the protagonist is a Native performer.
Right, well, because it's that like I think Dances with Wolves is a movie made by white people for white people, with the help of members of the Lakota community, and and that's a step towards Prey, but it's it's you know, it's obviously al ways behind. Just say a couple of other things in the representation in it. The Lakota language is what it's used among the people who Kevin Costner is with. They're referred to as both the Lakota and
the Sue. And there's some debate around that because Sue is actually there's someone would understand it is that Sue is a word for snake and was used as like kind of a negative term others used for the Lakota. That that's kind of a complicated issue. The person who worked with them on the language was a person named
Dorris Leader Charge, who was a Lakota language expert. It is a simplified version of Lakota, I think, because it's supposed to be more historically accurate, but it's one that sounded very weird to modern Lakota speakers, and so there's there's some question of that, Like, yeah, it definitely seems like they were trying to you to be more authentic, and the visual prepresentation was considered far more authentic than a lot of the kind of stereotypical Hollywood stuff up
till that point. Not perfect by any means, and reading through it, I read because again, as you said, the best people to listen to are experts within those communities.
I was surprised that there were a lot of folks who had very including from the Lakota Nation, a lot of folks who had very positive memories of this movie, as like, yeah, it wasn't great, but it was a good step forward in part because of what you said I mentioned before, like the horrible history, even like in those john Ford movies, not only was it horrible representation of Native Americans, but most of the time it wasn't even Native actors playing those roles, so it was often
like white people in red face or Mexicans or someone like that. So it's a step forward to the acting. It's a step forward with with other things like that. I will say, just as my own bit of it, you know, I kind of representation that it really aged badly is that the movie starts with Kevin Costner in a Civil War battle learning that they might amputate his leg, him immediately deciding that he should try to kill himself because obviously having his leg amputated is the worst thing
that could possibly happen. And then when a general like sees that he did something great, him being like, you don't amputate my leg. Don't let them take my leg. As someone has had of my leg amputated, it's not actually the end of the world. Ah. So I just kind of wanted to push that forward. But also, obviously I didn't have my leg amputated in the eighteen sixties. It was probably much worse than etc. But it just as a disabled person that scene did not age well. Yeah,
but Avatar is also horrifically ablest because the guy. The whole point is that the guy can't ignore his wheelchair, so that's a whole other thing.
I want to go I want to go back to the thing about the language, because like we mentioned that, you know, not the mixing of like tribes and stuff like historically, right, So like this movie, the Lakota Graham Green is from the Oneida tribe.
Rodney Grant is Omaha west Study who plays the Pawnee as Cherokee.
So like part of the problem is.
You cannot I don't know if ken right, but they didn't get all, you know, all the right people.
So to speak.
But what I did read related to your language thing was that one I can't I don't have the exact reference. But one of the actors who was called upon to speak Lakota Lakota Sue, almost got cut from the movie because he couldn't get it right and he had to like practice.
Real hard to get it right. And then and then they let him have the speaking roles.
So that at least speaks to some dedication to an authenticity, right, Hey, like if you can't do this right, like we can't, we don't want John screen for this.
And one of the people who speaks the language fairly well, because I imagine he worked with it and could afford to have. You know, the best tutors in the world is Kevin Costner himself. There's a lot more native language used in this movie than there was in Prey. Clearly the actors in Prey I think wouldn't have had trouble with that language. But I did think that was interesting to watch when I'm thinking about these two movies and
how much it involved. Also both Kevin Costner and the actress whose name I forget but who plays the sort of white woman who's part of the community, Mary McDonald, Mary McDonald, thank you. She also speaks Lakota in the movie, so it's interesting stuff. Yeah. So I just thought it was interesting watching it again. Like the other thing that I read that I thought was a really interesting commentary on it, and I'll see if I can find this
article is written by native author. I mean, he talks about how this is a big step forward, but it still has a fundamental problem and I hadn't seen it this way, but it made a lot of sense, which is he said that this is something you start seeing around this time where it's a movie about how there's you know, white people are wrong and treat the people of whatever community it is badly, but always that there is a good white person or maybe a couple of
good white people, and a lot of bad white people, and also that they're is good members of the other group and bad members, and that the way the Lakoda and the Pawnee are positioned really falls into that of there's a lot of like, well, not that, oh, your ideas of the natives are wrong, but your ideas of the natives are right in the Pawnee, but not all
of them are like that. And I thought that was really interesting analysis of like, yeah, like there's a way in which this is taking step forwards but also some like sort of reaffirming a lot of problematic thoughts about these things.
Yeah, that's the thing is like I've tried to look up like what the most famous or like best movie about natives in the nineteen eighties was just to see like, okay, like what happened before that, because I talked about what happened after that, which is like these people got a lot of roles, like dance. Last of the Mohicans was also like a huge Oscar movie.
And all that.
In the eighties, Like the best I could come up with a movie called Wind Wind Waker, I believe, or Walker I'm sorry, I don't have the exact title. And in that movie, the protagonist who is supposed to be Native.
Was played by a white guy.
So that's like that that's what was going on before Dances with Wolves, and I agree, like there are problems with it, but it was, in my opinion, a huge step forward, right and in terms of representation.
And I'll say I think one of the other movies that's often cited as you know, not perfectly any means, made by Robert de Niro and starring Val Kilmer, but still a good step in a good direction, is a movie called Thunderheart, which is kind of it's a modern day story about a white detective working with a Native detective, and it touches on a lot of the stuff that led to Wounded Me in nineteen seventy three, which is a big h you know, kind of Native group fighting
for their rights and really gotten, really complicated things. And that movie I think is very much made possible by Dances with Wolves and try to be fairly authentic to you know, that community in the nineteen seventies, and the main Native character is played by Graham Green, So I think that's that's that's move I thought on for Suger reference that I often think of as the other great
kind of nineties native representation for its time. And definitely, like I think, if Dancing with Wolves doesn't get made, Thunderheart absolutely does not get made.
Yeah, like say with Last of the Mohicans, I think that was just like two or three years later, and obviously like there's a certain cynical money grab element to that, right, It's probably like they saw the success and like, well, why don't we try to make one?
And I think, I mean because that's based on a Nathaniel Hawthorne novel that's hundreds of years old. But I I think there had been an earlier version of Last of the Mohicans that probably is very much of the John Ford kind of idea of natives. And and you know, Last Mohican is still story about white people, but better than other stuff that Now. I really want to go back and watch that movie because I remember it as being just a really wonderful love story and adventure movie. Uh,
and it was one of father's favorite stories. My father used to read that story to me as a kid. Not he wasn't reading nothing of Hawthorne to me, but he had like a kid's version of it. But now I'm kind of curious and nervous to go back and watch it and be like, oh, okay, yes, some parts of this age pretty well, or oh, oh no, this is a movie that you've stayed where it is. Have you seen it in any kind of recent history.
Last of the Mohicans?
Yeah, no, I don't even remember if I've actually seen the movie.
I remember scenes, so maybe.
Like I saw parts of it on TV right back in the day.
The Daniel day Lewis Stay Alive, I Will find You was certainly a very memed uh common for a long time. So well, I think we've had a lot to say. This is you kind of mentioned that there might be a word for you to say about Last Samurai, and uh, do you want to say anything about that now or do you want to say that actually for our bonus section?
Well, I don't know, like what I what I want to say, I think importantly is that obviously, like these issues aren't solved even today, right, And part of the reason they aren't solved is like history happened, and you know, the United States of America was built on stolen land and there's no way to fix that. But taking steps in movies and representation and like how we portray history
is important. And as I've talked about, like with the actors, like giving people from those communities the opportunity to represent themselves is important.
Yep.
And just like giving voice like one of one of the things. And when I say it's not solved.
Like there was that there was that Lone Ranger movie. I don't know if you saw.
This, Johnny Depp as Tanto.
Yes, that was what like five years ago or something.
Yeah, So it's it's like we we talked about it, like how bad it was. It's still happening, yeah, And that's kind of the depressing part of it is like that that's just ridiculous, right, like that that movie should be lambastard for that to do that in this age.
There was.
The character chakote in Star Trek Voyager.
Yep, uh, just terrible. Like I have this information pulled up here.
They had a I'm using air quotes here now, this is very important. They had a quote Native American heritage consultants on call for Voyager to try to give authenticity to the character of chacote H his name was Jamake Highwater. He was a white guy faking his way. He was born Jackie Marx. He was exposed to have zero native heritage.
Was he? I thought he was Mexican, which which is decidedly not Native, but also not white.
I've like maybe mixed, okay.
I believe like one of the things I saw reference was Irish Okay, but probably he probably had some non Irish heritage to have darker skin to be able to.
Play this role. And there's a role like he's playing this role.
He scammed people. He you know, he got he got these jobs as a consultant. And it's like, no, I mean, even if I'm gonna be generous and say, even if you are an expert in the field and the study of the history, let's someone from that culture do that job specifically.
Right.
Yeah, No, I think that's really true. And I think and and well, I had not heard quite so much about the actor himself. Uh, And I think that he's
certainly opened some some some criticism. Let's be clear that the writers were not, you know, hiring all the cultural consultants like the There's a number of stories involving him and his connection to his people, and and and and Native communities that are just the worst parts of Like, uh, there's a scene in the TV show Echo, Uh where one of the characters in the Native community runs a kind of tourtois store and and there's a scene of like these two white people who are like, oh, yes,
we're looking for crystals to to, you know, engage our spirituality. And it's clear that they know nothing about Native actual spiritual practices, and the guy selling them stuff is perfectly happy to sell them a rock and be like this is fifty dollars because it you know, making fun of that.
And I feel like the white people who come into the show to the story and that show could have easily been the writers of Star Trek, Like it very much feels like white people writing about Native American spiritual vision quests that for Chakoda to go on. But yeah, you're right, yeah.
And this is Star Trek, like a beloved franchise that celebrates diversity, and they got it wrong in a very embarrassing way. And if you've seen if you've seen Prodigy, like I think that they are kind of redeeming Chacote's character and that and trying to do right on the wrongs that we're done on that on Voyager, So that's at least something good that's coming out of it.
Yeah, But and we're going to talk a bit more about this in the a section for members, We're going to talk a little bit more about you know, obviously we're here talking about Native Americans, and I think that there's there is truth to the idea that indigenous communities around the world are treated badly and that their media and culture is often used by non indigenous communities for
the benefit of them. But I also don't want to paint with I think it's easy to say, like, oh, you know, like the the the issues that you know, people in the Lakota community in the United States and the people in you know, a Native community somewhere else in the world are the same. In our bonus member content, we're gonna talk a little bit about both good and bad examples of how other Native communities have been treated
in some of the media we care about. And of course you can become a member for just five dollars a month fifty five dollars a year you get access to those We're finally starting in January gonna be starting to do our Superhero Ethics full but bonus member episodes. We're gonna be looking at some of kind of like the core questions of what Superherothics is all about and doing those on a monthly basis. Those will be free
episodes for members. You get free bonus content, but of course you have to help keep the lights up, lights on, and keep us funded and all those kind of good things. But so just and closing before we get to that member content, Riki, do you want to talk to just about what what are your thoughts as Japanese Americans as a person who enjoys a lot of the media on the movie The Last Samurai and how does it differ from Dances with Wolves.
Here's the thing. I enjoyed The Last Samurai when I watched it in theaters, and I wanted I did watch it in theaters.
Yeah, it's a it's a well.
Made movie and is well well acted as well, and so like it's it's hard for me to kind of balance that with like, well, like what are they doing here? And like so comparing it to Dances with Wolves, I think there's a different difference of because you mentioned to me, like, well, like in Dances with Wolves, like oh sorry, The last Samurai allowed ken Watanave to become a star, right, which is which is one true like from a like.
Western Hollywood perspective, because.
He was already a star in Japan, right, like a huge star, as was Hiroki Sanada, who is like a secondary character in the movie.
Like they were both established stars.
So to me, like that's the difference of like Dances with Wolves gave these opportunities to people who you know, Graham Greenen was probably the best known from from in Canada, but otherwise just like really elevated people who had no.
No platform, right well, and part of that dancing with what I connect the two movies. I think a lot of people can two movies because they're about white people engaging in a non white community and then kind of the quote unquote going native, which is itself a very problematic term, but you're right, like like there is a Japanese media industry in the way there isn't for uh, you know, the Lakota people.
Or and I'm absolutely appreciative that you know, more people have gotten to experience can want to Nave and Hi like the latter, especially like he's an absolute treasure.
Right, Yeah, that's good.
It's like each row coming to the United States, like it's a much better it's a much bigger career opportunity. But it wasn't like he couldn't.
Play yeah yeah exactly. And then like there's just other kind of details that as you as you look into them, they become more problematic or they like they age poorly, like Dances with Wolves was filmed in the American West right right, like it is authentic filmography to the place right and it's beautiful, Like the cinematography is beautiful. I believe that was one of one of the Oscars that it won, uh yeah, Best Picture, Best Director, Screenplace, Cinematography,
Sound Film, Editing, music, where it's Oscar wins. The Last Samurai quite a few of the like outdoor like the beautiful cinema cinematography. Portions of The Last Samurai were filmed in New Zealand, which is beautiful, like as we know from Lord of the Rings. But it gives you that like itch of like why like Japan is beautiful in itself.
Now it's possible that they just.
Like couldn't find the right location, like part of the reason a lot of stuff gets filmed in New Zealand. Is because it's empty of like human civilization, where it's.
Like a lot of the parts of Japan, like a feudal Japan have been urbanized and things like that.
Yeah, so, like especially for two thousand and three, like nowadays, you could probably film in Japan and just like cgi like modern buildings out true, right, like that that's the thing like so, but then it's like, what's the authenticity of that? And that's kind of brings to mind Avatar, right, like the cinematography is all fake. Yeah, and again, like that's why I think Dances with Wolves is still so important and should be remembered better is that they gave that authenticity to the place.
I think that's really true. And I also just add one other thing that for me, at least as a person who let me back it up, I think all that's true, and I think, to me, there's one other factor that is to me fairly damning for Last Samurai, which to say again as someone who I really enjoyed the movie, Like, I think the fight scenes are great.
I think it's beautiful. I think Tom Cruise can be a really good actor at times, and I thought he was very good in this, But the movie is set against the backdrop of the Meiji Restoration and a civil
war within Japan. That sets the movie very much as this is the last remembrance of beautiful you know, authentic quote unquote the way white people will say it feudal Japan against the evil Western industrialists, and that's very much the way the movie sets it up, and that like the Samurais have this beautiful way of life, but the Westerners want to bring in capitalism and modern armies and stuff like that. And yeah, I saw that as a beautiful story until I watched Keenshin.
I was gonna say that, Yeah.
Movies and TV shows that that we've talked about a lot that's set in this same time period, but tensions on the side of the restoration, and it caused me to do a lot more like digging into the history of this time. I think, like any historical period, finding saying like these people are good and these people are bad is is It's much more nuanced and complex than that.
But certainly it felt very much like if you really understand the history of that time, for as Samurai to sort of state so clearly, these are the good guys and these are the bad guys, is very much a Westerner trying to take on elements of a history that they do not understand and simplify it to tell their story, which I think is kind of like one of the worst kinds of cultural appropriation and non representation. So that you're go ahead.
Well, I just want to make sure people know, like you're talking about Roni Kenshin, which is a manga anime, and there were a couple of live action movies, Japanese live action movies that are available on.
Netflix, yep. And we've done a number of episodes about different of the movies and the anime and stuff like that.
And I'm glad you brought that up because the way the Last Samurai presents the conflict is that the Meiji government is like all modernized. They have you know, they have guns, they have gatling guns. And then the other side, the Samurai side, are.
On horseback, right like drawing their swords.
And as you said in Kenshin, like both sides have both yeah, like there are sorts, there are swordsmen on both sides, There are you know, are guns on both sides. So like it wasn't it wasn't as like from a governmental like historical perspective, yes, it was like modern versus traditional, but from a warfare perspective it was pretty even.
Right in Kenshin, there's a long like there's a long plot line. I think it's in the second of the live action movies where where the the non industrial side has a battleship and it's like a nineteenth century like you know, top of the line battleship.
Yeah, so that's where The Last Samurai like presents this very romantic sized version of history of like the samurai and their last charge. Right, It's like, well, that's not and then I also like, who.
Is the last Samurai?
That Tom Cruise.
That's kind of sucky.
Yeah, Like I think you can read it as it's about what Ken Wannabe's character, but you know, like yeah, it could go either way.
And the fact okay, and this is like my biggest issue from a historical perspective, like comparing it to Dances with Wolves and Dances with Wolves. Kevin Costner's character observes history, right, and maybe there's a bit of white saviorness in that he convinces the tribe to move and he saves.
Their lives perhaps or at.
Least like delays the inevitable of the encroachment of white
settlers in terms of the impact on that tribe. But in the Last Samurai, Tom Cruiser's character survives the final battle, brings the sword wat A's sword to the Emperor and convinces the emperor to change his policy by reminding him of like the Samurai spirit and to like stand against stand against you know, the United States or don't you know, don't forget the Japanese Yamato spirit type of thing, and like that's like the most white savior bullshit of all
time in my opinion, Like for for these movies, like maybe Avatar is worst because he's literally the chosen one and can and pilot or ride the dragon thing, right, Like that's kind of similar. But that's where I like Tom Cruise's character like changes history. Yeah, by convincing the emperor.
It really is. I think the white savior complex is so important there as is this idea that echo actually that TV show does highlight a little bit, which is this idea that often because of this and because like I said, of like you know, go on Ikeia and you are not Akia, but go on like a lot of like Christmas websites and you'll find a lot of like this is me, you know, authentically Navajo made or
authentically made by the indigenous people of uh. There's actually a great line of Fight Club about Indigenous made by the hard working indigenous people of wherever, Like no one cares, it's just this white idea. And and I think this is an echo. It might have been another TV show, but again in that kind of like the the Chochke's store, the tourist store, the white folks come in and and and like the I think it's it's it's the uncle
or the grandfather of echo. He changes the way he speaks to speak more of the kind of like you know, white man say, you know, like the kind of like oh yeah, Western idea, white man's idea of what it should be. And there's a moment where like his cell phone goes off and they give him dirty looks because they're like, you're not supposed to have cell phones. You're supposed to be our image of like perfected, authentic you know, history that we want to romanticize and experience, but still
have our cell phones. And to me that very much felt like last Samurai of you know, we want to be able to while being participants of the capitalist culture that helped to end this. We still want to be able to romanticize that without remembering as we talked her intention that part of the samurai spirit that they were overthrowing was the ability to kill anyone who you thought was disrespecting you as a samurai. Like it was not, you know, the perfect romanticized thing.
So, and the thing is like, from a historical perspective, the last samurai is probably just like some general or prime minister in the Meiji government because again, like it's it's not like they waged a war on all samurai. It was just like these these particular ones in certain provinces that didn't want to go along with this, right, But like plenty of samurai did, and they got positions in the government because.
Among the things were often some of the most educated people in the country at that time.
So rich or rich, Yeah.
That too, that too. All right, Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm sure it's a topic response. We're going to return to a lot more people. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts, your comments, your feedback, things you liked, things you didn't like, whatever you had to say about it. We will have all the informations on in our show notes, as well as information about how to take advantage of those two great deals audible
membership lightsabers. These make great Christmas gifts or holiday gifts, whatever kind. Please think about doing that. Please think about become a member. If you are a member, stick around. We're gonna have some bonus content for you in a moment. But for everyone else, we have spoken.
I'm the last Samurai.
I'm funny.