Percy Jackson on Screen & Page

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends. We're rushing this episode out to you because the last episode of the Disney Plus live action Percy Jackson has just been released. Recording this on January thirty first, and I'm recording it just a few hours later with the hope that it's going to be in your earbuds tomorrow Thursday. So we want to get a quick turnaround on this. And for the next couple of weeks, the Superhero Ethics schedule

is gonna be a little bit off kilter. We're gonna put out episodes when we can. We're gonna mostly stick to a normal schedule, but this one's gonna come out soon, and then we're also gonna be having a bunch of episodes right when the new version of Avatar the Last Airbender comes out. Today. We're all about doing reviewing the live actions of children's classic shows that people are excited about nervous about. And for this I've got two great guests.

I've got Alex Corman, who is one of my regular guests on the Storre Wars Universe podcast, and Amelia Love, who is a first time guest on here but has been someone I've been talking about Percy Jackson with for quite some time, including during the show, and I knew I really wanted their opinions and feedback during this episode. So Amelia, let me start with you before you talk about the show, talk about the books and what they meant to

you. So I got into Percy Jackson actually, like during the pandemic, Like I'd read the first one, you know, back in middle high school when they started coming out for me, and then never really picked him up again. And then during the pandemic, I kept seeing tiktoks about them and it made me download them all on my kindle and it was just a progressively read all that had been released back to back, like I read it through

them. And it was at the same time that the last Trial of Apollo book was coming out, so I read up to that book and then had like a week before that one came out. Yes, so I got to read basically fifteen in a row, which was insane, and I did that in about two weeks. And what do you think it was about the books,

the characters, the writing that we drew you in so much. I really loved like just the overall found family throughout all of the different Percy Jackson series, but specifically, you know, the foundation it builds with Annabeth and Grover and Percy in the first book, and then later on with more characters

as it grows. But I really just liked that how it was done, like it was like everyone had their flaws and you know, there were issues between everyone, but it all worked out and along the way, you know, you get this, you know, retelling of Greek mythology in a very child way, which you have to it's Greek mythology, but you know, I think that gets kids interested too. You know, you start with the Percy Jackson books and then you end up you know, studying on your own

can lead to things. Yeah, I'm totally with you there. I think I might have started reading them a little before the pandemic, or it might even during the pandemic. But I know one of the things that really drew me in was that I think this is part of why I was being talked about so much on TikTok. Actually I think I discovered it earlier, but it's talked about for similar reasons. Is that was around the time when more

and more people were starting to realize to what a terrible person JK. Rowling was, and we're starting to realize, like I think I had gone through,

Like the last wave of that was when I discovered Percy Jackson. But a lot of people were talking about Percy Jackson and the books in part because the author, Rick Rordon is like super queer positive, really does a lot to bringing people of color into his books and draw it like when he wrote a trans character in a book, he like worked a lot with other trans authors to cover things like that, and so I kept seeing these things where he was presented as this sort of like you know, all the boay of

the Harry Potter world, because United is kind of a similar thing of like a bunch of kids coming together and sharing the fact that they have these magical abilities, and they're all in different kind of communities based on their parents or things like or their beliefs or things like that, in this case their parents. So it kind of hits a similar niche but with a much different perspective in that is both true of the author but also true of the books.

And so for reheat for me, I think all the things you talked about the found family, I guess they're all cousins but they have still found family dynamics. Getting to see the kid's age. I think that was told really well. But also it just hit at a time when I was really hungry for more of this and feeling really betrayed that the Hair of Potty books I loved so much, I was now seeing through very different eyes. So it really meant a lot to me to find this new thing. Alex, what

up for you? Yeah? I I read them as they came out. My mom got me the first book when he came out in two thousand and five, and I was about eight years old. I was really like the perfect age for these books, and like, this is pretty this is my favorite book series of all time. I grew up with the characters, you

know. Every few years. Every year or two, when a new book came out, my mom would take me to Borders, which was the Barnes and Noble equivalent back of the day, and we'd get the book right when it came out and I would stay up all night reading it. Like I never had that experience with the Harry Potter books a lot of other people had growing up. I was just a little too young for it. And Priscy Jackson was which is my It was my thing and and and my my friends

all really got into it. And it's just I connected so deeply with Percy on so many different levels. I mean, I to the stay am very adhd. But you know as a kid, I was adhd, you know, working through and I wouldever I would never like a problem in schools, but like you know, teachers having to work with me and my parents about me being too impulsive and too like you know, just it's kind of crazy and it's just a lot of like the things that Percy described. I basically

convinced myself that I was a demigod. Like I was like, I'm I checked every box on the which you have just laid in front of me. I have to be. And I also like I've also always my whole life felt very connected to water and felt very like safe and and and special like like I don't know, I feel special inside when I'm in water, and

so I And that was even before I read this book. So I was like, oh my god, on Percy's brother, I got even the stud of like eight year old me. It was a convinced that like I was the demigod. And I just I grew up with them, and then when the uh I can't remember what the sequel series was called, but the Heroes of Olympus, when those came out, I read them always they came out. I did not read the Trials of Apollo. I read it. I like I read it. I've skimmed the first book a bit. I just

I care mostly about stories that really set are around Percy. And I thought that I'm against the Apollo books at all. I think I'll read them eventually. I just haven't gotten to it yet. But I've reread the Originals and the Heroes of Olympus countless times. Well, I think when you you mentioned the uh Apollo books, I think you're actually thinking about the Heroes of Rome books, right, because we don't really have a whole series of apollollows is

five books. Yeah, there's the Trials of Apollo. It's a five book series on Apollo. It's the third one. Oh okay, No, I haven't cleared I here, here's the Olympics. Is the Roman one. So that's why the Roman oh okay crossed over? Which I really the first book I did it love in that series, but the other four I loved. But actually I still have my original five Percy Jackson books I had from growing up with all the same terrors and little marks and stuff I made in them,

which I think is special. But yeah, in Percy Jockson is like extremely important to my identity. Yeah, well, I love that, and I love that we have a couple of different perspectives here in terms of when we discovered Percy Jackson and what these characters have meant to us. And so let me then for the next question. I think a lot of us had some trepidation about, uh a live action version of these books because there had been a little bit of live action already. H that not everyone loves.

UH. So for both of you, what'd you guys think of the lot action movie if you've seen it. There's two of them actually, and they're both ass So I actually did not curse in this one, Matthews is fine. I want to I want kids you'll listen to it, especially to Percy Jackson, so we'll keep the language fairly family friendly. But as is fine. Okay, okay, okay. I actually watched the movies before I read the books, because I remember when they came out so and even then I

knew they were bad. I was like, this is like, oh wow. I was like, these are not going to do good and then they didn't. And I feel like they were really just trying to contend with the competition at the time. Yeah, like they were silly and they were Yeah, they pushed him out though, I think, yeah, I just I just did that. The entire fact that the three main characters were all in their twenties, they're running around just immediately, just listen. I love Logan

Laherman, but that you too, that was not the best move. Yeah, I was a big stand for to be the Poseidon in this series. Yet I get it. But I think it's a common thing that that happens when there's books that are about kids who are like just on the cusp of being teenagers, they often will make them like much older teenagers, although or it appears like full on like adults, in part because they want the like, you know, heart throbbedness and like to be more okay with like the

flirtatiousness or the sexuality of the characters. And I'm really glad the show didn't do that here because I hated that in the movie. Yeah, the movies are not great, but so let's Okay, let's talk about the show itself. What did we I think we had a lot of specific things to go into, But Amelia, you first, would you think of the show overall? So I think it started off strong, Like I was really happy with the first two episodes, like the changes were minor. It seemed like we

were going to get a really good adaptation. And then it just slowly started going its own way yep, and I it just out more and more that I was like, okay, okay, And I feel like, you know, I'm always happy when I was an adaptatient because it always gets people more interested in something. But when you you promise to the fans that this was gonna be so good and then you kind of let it spin off in its

own way. Like even the ending of it is different, Like they don't make it in time for the solstice they need directly with Zoos and then everything

with Looke's betrayal, what's that sword? What's going on with this? Like you know, that's not what happened at all, Like yeah, and that was I was I the only one who was really rooting for Luke at the end, Like I kind of felt like the show had the Magneto killmonger problem of they make a villain have a point, but they actually wind up making the villain so sympathetic that the only thing that like turns you against them is

that they're being betrayed by the wrong people or the you know, their methods are bad. Because every word of Luke's speech about how the gods treat us like like, you know, terrible parents. I was like, yeah, kids, right. If I may offer my thought on this, I agree with everything I just said, is that I felt pretty good about the first two episodes. There was a few little things that was like upset about in that, like I, and this is a theme throughout, I think that

Disney sanitized the story personally. I think the domestic abuse that occurred towards Sally, which exists in the book, was really watered down. I think that, like a lot a lot of more some of the more heavy things were just made more kid and I get it, like they wanted to make it work kid friendly show. But if I was able to read that in a book at eight years old, I feel like we could put it on a screen in a way that still is true to that heart, to the point

of Luke I really liked the casting of Luke. I thought Luke's acting was great, but I agree with you, Matthew. It actually made me mad because Luke doesn't seem like wrong. He didn't like they didn't. They didn't. I don't think like make the gods seem unwakeable enough, like they portrayed Poseidon is too good of a dad. He wasn't. He's not a good dad in the book, He's a really bad He literally says, and I

quote to Percy in the book, I'm sorry you were born child. And in the in the show, he's like defending him from seue surrender, doing all these you know. And so I think that the gods are portrayed as you know, bad parents enough to like really hit home Luke's point of the guys being bad parents, and like we only know that they're really bad because I think that we've read the books. But Luke was so likable that I

didn't feel I didn't feel the betrayal. Like in the book, I was so shocked and hurt and upset, And in the show, I'm like this entire betrayal scene was like three minutes and he's just gone, what the hell? And they didn't even like bring in like the fact that Backbiter is also able to harm humans. But that's a big part of how Luke is kind of turned to this darker side of himself, Like they don't explain a lot of the darker things, and I think hit home his betrayal and his character.

So I was I lost as it went on. I kept trying to defend the show and believe in it and believe it, and at the end, I was like, man, you just changed way too much, Rick, way too much. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. Definitely, like the points you touched on with like Gabe's abuse being like negated and stuff like that, That's exactly what I was seeking in the whole end of the episode watching that, I was like, are they gonna, like, you

know, portray this is this gonna how are we gonna do this? And then they just skimmed it. Oh whatever? She divorced him, right, you know, I really especially because in the book she kills him. Yes, she Genie's gonna meduce it. Yes, and he said she sells him. Did you guys, did you all watch the end credit scene? Yeah? Oh no, I didn't see he there's an end credit scene math did

you mind if I tell you? Yeah? So basically it's it's it's it's it's him turing the stone, so he it pans back to right before Percy. It's how I get back, or how I had just gotten back. She changed the locks to the apartment and he finds a package outside that says return to send her from the gods, and gave has opened it himself just to be a jerk and finally produces his head and turns himself to stone. So they incorporated it. But again it's sanitized because Sally doesn't kill him.

It's just him being a jerk and doing it to himself, which I think again, like Sally was was it really diminishes Sally's character because she suffered through domestic abuse willingly to protect Percy, and that's just not what's being portrayed. And then she finally gets a chance to take that back and to get back at him and to like take back her life and get rid of this vile,

vile man. Like I didn't actually hate Gabe. He was just a goofy loser as being from New Jersey, like I have met many many Jets fans that look an act like Gabe in the show, and that's just not how he is in the books. J E. T sh Jets Jets motherfucker. I'm a hardcore Jets fan. We're not like that. But yeah,

I definitely hear your point. And yeah, and it's funny because also, like in the books, Gabe is like calling the police on them and it's like doing all these things to like put Percy in trouble, and that's never it kind of hinted at in the show, but we don't get anywhere near

as much of that. And I really like what you said there about how how how you know impactful what Sally does at the end there is and the way Percy helps her do it, And to me, it's even worse because like to me, the Olympic, it's funny that you thought that in this the Olympian parents aren't as bad because I think they absolutely are. I think

they're flat out abusive. And you're right, Poseidon is nicer at that end scene, but the rest of the time him like not acknowledging him, you know, all the other stuff like the like Athena basically being like okay, well you were kind of rude. So I'm gonna set this monster into possibly killing you. I think it's part of why I was reading for Luke. I thought Luke was right because it's especially when Percy says like, well,

but our parents are trying their best. It's like that to me feels like a really bad message to send to people, especially kids, if your parents are really being horrible, I think you go ahead. I think one of the main overall points of the first five Percy Jackson books and is that Luke isn't necessarily wrong. Like that's something that they all struggle with later on in

the book, especially Annabeth because of her relation to Luke. They do struggle with that, and that that theme is brought up several times later on, which hopefully we do get to see the screen. I hope we get all this. I hope we get heroes of Olympus. I need everyone that, I need to see them all come to life on the screen. But yeah, I think a big part of that is just I can't explain it super quick. I just want to respond. I think I get where you're coming

from and the gods part. But I think what got me was that, like Sally drops a candle anywhere she goes Poseidon shows up immediately to be by her side. Hephestus immediately helps Annabeth Hermes lets him take the keys. They just they all seem to be being a little bit nicer and a little more likable. In the books, they were just hirks, and like I was like, these guys, like like by the end, I'm all right, Poseidon's kind of cool, but like they were all just real bad people.

And I felt like in the in the show, they just they were more likable. And besides, especially was being a much better helper to Sally than it ever seemed like she was being. That's fair. That's fair, I guess to me. Then, my problem is that the only parent Greek parent who looks truly awful is Athena. Yeah, which feels really weird for her to be the worst because she tries to kill her She doesn't try to kill her daughter, but she puts her daughter in a life and death situation because

her daughter was rude, Yeah, or her daughter's friend was rude. I like wanted to physically put myself between Poseidon and Sally when they were talking to each other to a restaurant. I was like, no, don't talk to him, girl, like I wanted to like get them apart. I was like, no, you do, do not talk to him. I don't want any relationship between the two of them. I need Paul to come in

right now and steal Sally away. Because the book presided as a show up until person has a birthday party at the end and just rolls it, and that's such a better way, And I don't know, I just yeah, yeah, because you're right, because they didn't instead of making because I think the thing that they does in the book is to say, like, you know, Luke is the kill monger. Luke is the magneto where he like has a good solid point, but he's willing to kill humans. He's got

a human killing sword, he's willing to work with Chronos. And yeah, well, clearly though, there's a lot about the show that we liked, because, like as Amelia was just saying, like we do, you know, Mili was saying at least that she wants more of it. I certainly want more of it. I think there is a lot of good in this. So we can go back to some of our critiques in a second, but let's just talk about what are some of the things that really worked especially

in those first couple episodes. And I'll actually start by throwing one out. That's funny because they just talked with Alex about this on the Strong Wars podcast. In the books, I think what actually, let me back back this up a bit and actually ask you, Alex, when you were reading them as a kid, did you find the scenes of the monsters scary? Depending I did not find I did not find the like the actual monsters, the minotaur scary. Really, it was kind of like humorous. What I did

find scary in the books that I don't think was actually scary. One that they reversed it in my opinion in the show is that I found Haiti's scary. I found some of the gods scary in the books, and they kind of made them more like in the show, while the monsters, I felt like, became way scarier in the show. Right. Well, yeah, because that's where we'll get to the guards in a little bit. But I was getting the monsters specifically for me reading them as an adult. They were

all slapstick. You know, the minuitar is chasing him, but the minutar is in Tidy Whitey's and we focus on that, and like every Monster, there's always some silliness as it's trying to adopt to the modern world, and this though, they were just straight up terrifying. Like the first scene that minu tar was one of the things that made me really be like, I like where the show is going because it felt like it was a lot scarier than the books were. I agree. So that's kind of my first thing

about what I like. What else do you guys like? I like a little bit of the modernization which has progressively happened in the books as they've come out, Like they've kind of like the references of stage modern even though I'm the same age as Percy Jackson is like chronologically, but even though he's still only like eighteen nineteen in the books, but they've kept the references modern and

like a Percy Flossing. I thought that was really funny and like updating the music that Grover sings, you know, things like that that kept it modern without like completely changing it. I really appreciated. Yeah, I thought Grover's performance was the best thing in the show. I think that I have opinions that all the different acting, but I think Grover By and far like like Grover embodied exactly what I imagine Grover being like growing up like this little shy,

kind of goofy but also sharp, little sader. The only the only thing that I felt it was a little bit missing from his character. Was he anything he ate enough. I felt like in the book he was constantly eating in cands and stuff. He never ate a tin camp he did. I was very sad. I was sad about that too. But general acting wise and the way he like portrayed the character I thought was like spot on spectacular. I thought he stole the show. In my opinion. I didn't

think he was necessarily the best. I actually really liked the kid playing Percy. But I thought all of them, oh wow. I actually I think, honestly, I think the best acting is Luke. But I think all of them were very, very good, especially for child actors. I do think Percy was spectacular. I personally thought Anabeth was a little wooden. I just don't I don't know, compared to the book, she didn't seem as like that's what what I'm looking for, like upfront, in your face.

I think I think they interpreted the characters being more like sit back and think wise. While in the book it's a lot more take action on the flywise, and I wanted her to be a little more aggressive, and maybe she will be in the future episodes or future books, but that was my only That was my main critique of Annabeth was I just was like, I need you to be more in it. I don't know, Amelia, what was your take on the actors. I kind of agree with the Annabeth stuff.

I think it might have been more of like a direct her kind of issues in an actor issue, because she started off like really sassy like at the beginning there, and I was like, yeah, that's Annabeth, and then she kind of just like took a step back and was more like, you know, a background character instead of being like upfront and like, you know, making being a stronger lead. You know, That's what the word I was looking for. Yeah, yeah, she's she's more sitting back. Well,

like you said, like she's thinking, which is fine. She is a child of Athena, but that's not how Annabeth is, right. Yeah, I definitely think that it's a director thing, non acting thing, because what I interpreted it as was it felt like that in this movie, in this show, they talk in the books about how she has lived most of her life at Camp half Blood and doesn't really know much about the world outside, but it felt like they were playing that up a lot more in the

show. So I interpreted as like she was just a kind of uncomfortable with this leadership situation, you know, in terms of she the leader, is Percy the leader, but also just that she felt very like fish out of water, which I thought the actress did a good job of portraying that character. But I agree with both of you, that's not the character is written in the books. Yeah. I think I just have a very especially having grown up with the books, a very strong idea of who Percy, Anameth,

and Grover are. And I felt like the direction they gave Percy and Grover was spot on with what I always imagine, and the director to think of Annabeth just didn't wind up with how I've always imagined Anabeth, and so I think it just bothered me. I co couldn't see it, that's fair. Yeah, I thought the actress was great, but I definitely think they made some directorial choices seemed weird. Luke's acting spectacular, yeah, yeah,

and Clarice. I thought Clarice was also. I remember thinking in both the book and the movies that I wanted more of her, and I thought the actress they got to play Clarice was so spawn on good and I in the book she specifically described as ugly, and I Rick Rick Rick Rardan, the author has really like grown up with the books himself as well, and he has said that like part of why he started including more queer characters was he he got, you know, negative feedback that they weren't there, and he

want he listened and he learned, And I think that his writing of women characters has grown a lot. And I think that a little bit of the writing of Clarice in the first book, as you know, she's kind of ugly and looks kind of like, you know, like Tom not even Tom boyish, but just kind of like she's heavy set and she's not pretty at all. And the fact that the actress who plays Carise is gorgeous and mean as hell and like not Caddy but just going to totally kick your ass.

I thought it was just it. It really felt like an evolution of the character in that way. But what I really really loved I have a slight

different opinion on that. I get what you're saying, but I actually it actually kind of it bothered me a little bit because I was expecting a plus size actress, like, you know, why why can't we have, like, you know, a plus size actress who in the books, you know, Chris described as having like a camel jacket and being very punk and like, you know, and I felt like, you know, now I want to cry, was saying, I really did enjoy her performance at her acting

a lot in the show, but I don't know, it felt to me like I was like, why why did you have to take that aspect of christ away? Like why can't she be a little like what's wrong with being a little a little beefy as you as a child? Why do you why do all of the characters have to be like fit in shape? Like, I don't know, I think that part just kind of got me because I was like, I felt like in the in the book, that was one of his better ways of like being a little more inclusive at how the folks

with the camp and I felt like they could have. I don't know, That's just how I interpret it. And and I and I agree with Chrissy's gorgeous in the show, and I was like, did they did they make that choice? You know, like why did they make that choice? I just kind of I don't know. Yeah, I agree with Alex too. I mean, like you niver see especially like plus sized child actors. You know, how many of those do you see? You know, it would

have been good to get some representation out there. You know, that's fair. I mean I would just push back and say that I think that you could have had plus size and still have her gorgeous. I'm more to she described it's ugly. Yeah, no, no, yeah, but I in that REGARDLE totally agree, although I do think there's something weird if you only have two real female campers we get to know and the good one is standing,

the bad one is is heavier. But but I also hear what you're saying, like it's interesting that that's the part of the representation that you picked up on, because I was just more focusing on the ugly part. But yeah, I think both of us have good points. Yeah, I also will say that I did. I think you're right that a lot of the kids looked like they were, you know, really in great shape and kind

of stuff like that. And I did like that there was one of the kids who was in great shape, was also in a wheelchair, and that was definitely a nice touch. I thought, I'm asking you a question in regards to that. Do you feel like when they include a character like you're somebody in a wheelchair, for example, and they're only on screen for a brief moment, does it feel inclusive or does it feel like they're just doing

it to check a box? Like that's a genuine question, like when Disney like throws in a character or whether they whether it's like just a person of color or you know, you know, if you want to include you know, an indigenous actor, so someone where there's just a briefly on screen just to say, oh, look, we have inclusion. Like did you feel like the fact that the character was only on screen briefly was beneficial or do you feel like it felt like Disney was just kind of doing that just to

be Disney. I think I'm kind of happy to finally be a box that someone wants to check. Yeah, Like I do think in that regard was just box checking and that's not enough. Yeah, but I think that like a the fact that he festus, I mean, this isn't like something Rorden came up with this is like from the Greek myths themselves, but like he

is disabled and they play that as disabled when he's up. And the fact that I know in later things there's gonna be more of that, and the fact that most of them, Like I think, if we'd gotten to know like five other campers, but then the one in the wheelchair had only been on screen for two seconds, I would have felt differently. But the fact that like, really we get to know, you know, are our three

heroes, Clarice and Luke, and that's about it. And so having like one of the many others be you know, there's a nation who's only on screen for a few seconds, there's you know, et cetera, et cetera. So but yeah, I think it's a fine line to walk, and I kind of think that disability has been so long forgotten in that regard that

it's we're just at the like. But also probably like if I hadn't seen Echo a week ago and felt like I see myself on screen in the most represented a way anyone's ever been represented, which is weird because she's a native woman, deaf person who I'm not any of those three things. But I saw in her more of my story as an amputee than I've ever seen on screen. But yeah, it's a good question, Like if this was the like, look, we have superhero representation, you got to be a guy,

I'd be like, no, walk that right. And I fact I asked that because you know, if I might ask one other kind of a larger question in that I know that you know, there's a lot of fans and Rick pushed heavily back against this because a lot of it came across this very racist commentary that were upset that they cast a black girl for Annabeth because in the book she's described as a white, blonde California girl. And I don't think that her race matters in the slightest in her and how she and

how anything happens in the books. But people, you know, I've heard the argument from people that Disney and Rick chose to do a lot of this casting just to seem inclusive, and that it was not. But they did it just to be inclusive and and have people call around screen and not like, let me say, have a bit of worthy instead of just doing that to have him write more you know, inclusive characters in the first but it's like, you know, Indi Codeangela, who you haven't met in the show,

is Hispanic. And you know, writing those you know, different keys, writing the characters a certain way. Do you feel like the castings were done? You know? What is your what is you'all take on all of that dialogue? Well, first of all, as a million points out, Nico is Italian, He's not Latino. You're a radio yes, thank you, thank you. And then then we have Hazel too, and like he

got better at writing those characters as the books went on. Yeah, he adds a lot more and Raina and everyone, just everyone, and like here's so much, so much more story. Yeah. Yeah, And that's kind of what I'm saying. And I think, honestly, I like from a lot of it, Like I kind of feel like, given that growth from Rick Reardon himself, for him to go back and say, yeah, I wrote those books is probably a little too white. I want to fix that

when I bring it to screen is totally fine. I also think that if you have the chance to have Lance Riddick anywhere in your show, you change everything so it fits around Lance Riddick. And I do think that the way that gods are written. The fact that Zeus is played by a black actor by no means we actually never mind know that because Annabeth is a Feenus daughter. So ignore everything I just said. But certainly I feel like the idea of like Lance Riddick, Just like the moment he came on screen, My

spouse Mary was like that Zeus. Of course, that Zeus. He's so perfect. It makes you wonder who they're going to cast Esthalia too, if they have. If they have Lance Reddick playing as Zeus, I mean, who are we what kind of character we're gonna get for Thalia, which is my favorite character personally in the whole series. Is I want them to cast me as Salia. I don't care that I'm thirty well, especially because and I think this is a real tragedy that obviously goes far beyond the show but

does affect the show. Lance Riddick has passed on. Yeah, and I don't know if they're going to recast him, or if they're going to like use something else or have Zeus be mostly off screen. But yeah, it is an interesting question. I don't guess they recast him, because gods can change their form. I thought they could very easily. Yeah, but it's hard. It's very hard to recast. It's rick of anyone else. Yeah, he was so good in this, even though the part of Zeus is

so different than the books, but I still loved him. For me, I think kind of the high water mark of the show because it's both my favorite point and also I think after it starts to go downhill was in the Medusa episode, and this also felt to me like an episode where they had intentionally updated it because in the books, she is one of the monsters who they have to fight, and you know, she at first appears kind of nice to them, and then you know, they quickly realize that she's trying

to like get them onto her side, you know, for her fight against the gods, and then they have to fight her and kill her. And one of the things I think that has happened in more recent like just cultural development, in large part because of an incredible statue that was made, but also because of other things, is there's really been a change in how Medusa is perceived in popular culture, and this understanding of that when you really look at the Zeus, look at the myths, Medusa is a woman who is

sexually assaulted in the temple and then gets punished by the gods for nothing that she did. It's one hundred percent of victim blaming and that doesn't come up in the books because that conversation wasn't really happening yet. And I really loved Medusa's portrayal in this of she does get to be sympathetic, and she does get to say, hey, think about how poorly I was treated. This wasn't fair. And she does then like turn on the kids and try to

kill them, and so I understand why they have to kill her. That makes me sad because they need the head for so many other plot points. Yeah, I gen really loved the way she was portrayed, in the way that they they allowed her story updated as our sort of cultural understanding of the myth was updated. But what did you both think of it? I liked the episode. I think that the only thing I would have liked different And this is a critique I had throughout is they just immediately knew it was Medusa.

Like that happened multiple times, so they just immediately knew. And I think it took away a little bit from like the surprise of like look at all these stones look at this nice lady, Oh my god, and like, I feel like maybe if they had met her, they hear her story, they get to know her like this, similar things can happen, and then then they realized it's Medusa, after they've connected with her and realized she's

a kind person. That would have actually sunk it even more for me, because I feel like a big part of the books was that, like they are learning, Annabeth has not seen outside, has not been outside for the world Jesus stepped it over. Annabeth has not been out of camp very often. Grover hasn't been on a quest since he helped save Luke and h and Annabeth and and goletho Alia get turned in to a tree, and Percy's brand new to all of this, And I felt like them just immediately having the

answer took some air out of the sales. It didn't take away from how much I like to portrayal of Medusa and how that episode went. I actually let a lot of the changes they did make in the episode and felt like it was a really fun, refreshing take on it. I just wished it like there was a little more suspense build of, like you know, they come upon this place, they meet this kind woman, they listen to her story, they connect with her, and then we find out it's Medusa.

It's just right away. I'm like, man, come on, Mallia. Would you think of her? And the way they kind of updated her story made her more sympathetic. Well, I think what that story was bold for Rick to include anyway, you know, given it is what it is, and you know, I have a Medusa tattoo, and you know, everything that stands for and everything that is a hard subject to broach when you're broaching middle schoolers, Like I get that, like I have. I have a

sixth grader, you know, perfect age for Percy Jackson right now. And I think they did the best they could. But I agree to Alex like they rushed it, like where they were like, oh, we know she's Medusa. That was a little lame. I liked the mystery where they're kind of like piecing it together, you know, But I do like I did like the Medusa kind of went more after Annabeth like look at what your mother

did to me and I didn't do anything, you know. I really liked that Medusa had that like spunk where she's where she was got to express herself and her story in the most Disneyfied way possible. Yeah, but you know I liked that, Like that felt good to me. Yeah. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think also in some ways that's Annabeth's best episode because I think that's where, you know, Percy is the one. One thing I always liked about Annabeth and Percy's story is that they're such

opposites. Percy is the one who is just learning about the gods and it's very cynical and detached. Annabeth is the the gods can do no wrong. And this was I think a really great way of Medusa being the first one to sort of poke at Annabeth and be like, really, is your mom that perfect? So where do you think things started to come up? Where the whales start to come off the bus? What are some of things that didn't work for you? The Lotus casino? Yeah, I've already talked to

you about this. I will never we did not learn from our mistakes of the past. Why are their children at a casino? It is not a casino, It is an arcade. And you have like these adults like they they walk into a Vegas casino and are handed unlimited gambling money, and they just go, oh, this seems right, Like Annabeths is just like yeah, this is normal, like smart Wise Girl, Annabets, It's just like, yeah, the math checks out. We definitely look twenty one and can

gamble. And then I think something that was hard to portray. I think they did try to portray it is the people in the different error outfits. Unfortunately, people in Vegas just kind of dressed like that I've noticed, so it was kind of hard to tell until they were directly talking to people that they were supposed to be undated clothing. I don't know how they could have

made that better or worse. I think if they had sex stuck with the theme of it just being children in there, it would have been easier to tell that everybody was from different periods of time. Yeah, I really I don't like that they just go in there and talk to Hermes like that. You know, we kind of changed the whole thing there. I And you know, I don't I don't like Linn wil Miranda as Hermes, but that's I just feel like Disney's played him too much. Honestly, it's something personal

against him. I just feel like he's in Money grab Casting. Mm hmmm, I agree fully. I mean, I also I love women Win Men wil Miranda. I'm I think Hamilton fan. I love him and like all his Broadway stuff, and like I like the scores he's done for Jay. But it just it didn't it didn't fit here to me. I think I just all I could see was women Will Miranda. I couldn't see, like I couldn't separate the character from the actor. And I also agree that this

is kind of where a lot of it fell off for me. Again, there have been moments throughout that were like kind of poking me the wrong way, but this just, I mean again, it's again, it's like the immediate before they even got into the place, they're like, do remember we can't stay here long? Like this is you know, we know the myth, this is what happens. Don't do like whatever. And like again in the book, they get trapped. They really are caught up, and like

they again they kind of water that down. And yeah, and this is actually the single moment that I'm gonna give the movie a piece of credit. In the movie, Percy realizes that they're stuck because he goes to way Pinball next to some guy, like some hippie guy dressing like close in the seventies and he makes some reference to like a yeah, I love this this movie whatever the Pinball Game was, you know, best movie of the year nineteen

seventy, and it like makes you realize that like time moves differently. And I was like, wow, that was a clever way of doing it. And I feel like a simple interaction like a two second line or something could have really done that, because I feel like that wasn't really portrayed as strongly and they missed the deadline like this made them lose all of that time where they just fully missed the deadline. That just takes all the wind out of

the quest. What what what are we doing? We'll get to the stuff about the gods in a second one there, just on the Casino Verus arcade thing. I don't know if this is why they did it, but I'm curious, Alex, as a kid, did you go to arcades and they took quarters in the machine? Okay? So that because I wondered if they think that like modern kids don't and maybe like Jen Alfa, Amelia, does your daughter ever want to go to or your child ever want to go to

I don't want to go to the casino. But like I mean, like we got a Demon Busters, you know, like we go to arcades. I mean, yeah, yes, So there's no reason why I couldn't have been like, there's definitely that's definitely still a part of it. Just did it to fit the Las Vegas five? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Children in casinos, I don't know. That's such a weird stretch for me. And they did in the movie, they did it in the show. I don't get it. Why can't you just make it an arcade?

Like why did it have to be a casino? Like we know it's in Vegas, but it's implying that these children are in there playing like they're showing like people playing poker and stuff, like it's put in the movie when Grover was just going down with like eight ladies at a craps table, is these

like row and dice? I'm like Jesus, oh well, And especially because in the book, one of the things I think that really comes across really well and this actually is is like legitimate to the lotus eaters from the Odyssey, Uh, is that the original work by Homer is that in the book. You know, they've been sleeping in buses, they've been sleeping by the side of the road, they've they've they've had all these horrible offul experiences,

and here's a it's not just an arcade. It's a hotel where they have rooms waiting for them and these comfortable beds and linen sheets and showers that are just bats that are so luxurious. And it's the the incredible contrast between all of this like awfulness, where and also that everyone has been turning their backs on them. All the gods are trying to screw them or ignoring them, none of their parents are helping, and here the whole staff is like,

oh, Percy Jackson, We're so glad to see you. And to me, that's a big part of what makes it so appealing. And that and the awesome games because again like, yeah, I don't know many twelve year olds or fourteen year olds we're gonna be like, ooh, blackjack. It's kind of a boring game unless you have a chance to win money at it. So yeah, I just thought that whole scene was done weird. And as for the Linn Manuel Miranda part of it, when we start to get

into the gods. For me, I grew I was someone who really love Greek myths growing up, and I think in the Greek mythology, at least, Hermes is really portrayed as like the teenager of the group. Like he is he's the youngest or the gods, and he's still like kind of a manchild in a lot of ways, Like he's you know, supposed like he's the guy who you imagine if he went over to his house, like he'd have like some empty pizza boxes and probably be like uple not playing video games.

One of the things that I always loved about the book is that I think this is more developed in the later books of the series, but you get the idea of is that like Hermes wasn't old enough to have it to be a father yet, and that's part of why he was not a great father to Luke, and like none of the gods were good fathers. But then he was kind of like, you know, he's kind of like that manchild who has a kid, has no idea what to do with him.

And yeah, so making it minimal Miranda, who is just much older and distinguished and like it just felt all wrong and it just I don't know. It took the way they introduced the character who is not as good as the way they introduced him in the books, and like the fact that like the kind of brushed past a little bit, like which just briefly explained how Luke's mom was a seer and like everything that happened. I was like, Where's

There's so much more exposition. This is important to understanding Luke in his backstory and why he thinks the way he thinks. Why are we rushing through this story? It just it felt like they were just trying to squeeze it in for no reason. Yeah, Dide wants you to feel too short to you, Like I I think a seat like a movie was you could never do this book and it felt way too short they rush. Yeah. I felt like a ten episode or twelve episode series would have worked much better. I

was entirely surprised about how short the episode were. I was like, that's it, yeah that Like there was one that was like under forty minutes. I was like, wow, okay, Like I feel like it takes me longer to read that, and that's saying something. Yeah, And I felt like they really wanted to focus on the action adventure, you know, like where it's like I actually really care about this mother of monsters and her holy dynamic. Then I do like watching CGI of this huge scorpion Camara monster.

Yeah, the pacing just felt weird to me. Throughout it felt like they like were just I don't know, like sometimes they spent time, like with getting from point A to point B, I spent a lot of time expisaying like a short period of time, and other times start going through multiple days in like ten minutes. I agree with you, I think ten twelve episodes would have really helped. I mean just skipped over a bunch the Empire state, Pudy go up to the Olympus, which should have been this big,

grandiose climactic moment, so her five minutes. Yeah, what do you all think about the way the other gods were trained? Let's actually start with Poseidon too soft fully? Why is he like care? I don't like that I don't trust. Yeah, it makes me nervous. I don't like that he's being nice. I don't like that he talked to Sally. Ever, I don't want him to ever talk to her ever again. I would put a restraining order on him. For her. I don't like that he cared as

much about Percy. You know, I didn't like it. I it was weird they were trying to make us feel compassionate for the gods when Luke makes really good points that you should be compassionate for the gods, and in the book they back that up. Yes, yeah, they back it up.

Yeah, because like there is there's the one moment where Poseidon says that he's like really proud of Percy, and Percy's like, oh my God, thank you, and your heart just breaks because it's like that abused kid or partner who just gets that little love colonel, and it's like, oh, this is so wonderful, and you're like you should be getting that every day.

Yeah, that's what I articulated this poorly earlier. That's what I was trying to get at, is that I felt like the same exact what immediately just said is that Beasada was too soft and was just too They tried to make

it seem like he carried a lot more guilt than he really does. Like I think in the books is portrayed that he is a little guilty, he feels a little bad, and he does have a little favorite tanism towards Percy, but like it's still he's still a very distant father, very distant, very hands off, very like you know, And I think again that's what like makes you question throughout the series, will Percy join with like will he

maybe actually agree with Luke? Like will Annabeth agree with like? Like it makes you question, like if Anabeth or Percy might actually join up with Luke at some point, But in this point, like, they've made it very clear that, like you know, Percy will defend the gods to the end.

Percion's at the battle of a dad towards him, but Athena is a jerk towards Anabeth, And so I don't know it just the look of a Satin was great, but it's just I don't feel like the energy of the care all the gods fote too nice, except for Zeus well, especially because like you guys said, as in thinking about it, like that part worked great in the first couple episodes, like Poseidon doesn't show up. He doesn't

say great job and capture the flag. He just lets his try and it be above the kid, and then we immediately learn it's not because he's like, oh, poor Percy. Percy should know whose dad is. It's like, Oh, I'm in a fight with my brother. I need my kid all of a sudden to do this very dangerous mission, so all of a sudden, I'll claim him. I'm like they established that in the in the

show in the early episodes. I shn't know what happened later. And what about Hades and Zeus and Arias, because they're like in the books, and all three of them, they're portrayed fairly supernaturally when he first meets them, and then they kind of shrink down into Hades and Zeus both are like ten foot tall, and Hades has like fire in his eyes and all this kind of stuff, and they wind up being aries. I'm sorry, he has like fire in his eyes and it being more human. What do you think

about the changes they made there? I don't like what they did to Hades me neither. That was they made him a little little lucy Lucy goosey, Yeah, and I didn't like that. It was weird. I was like, this is not Hades at all. Like I literally had just read that part in the book when that episode came out in my reread, and I

was like, this is so wrong. Yeah, it's funny because I'm I commented to Amelia about Aries because I had just read the part about Aries in the book, and so I was like, Oh, this is so wrong, and Amelia is like, what are you talking about? Because I actually think that the actor who plays Arias was spot on perfect, and I'm willing to believe that maybe that the like they tried having them look it just looked cheesy, you know, because some effects work better on page than they do

on screen. But I don't know what they were going for with Haites. He just seemed kind of like like shady and slimy instead of like haunted or you know, it felt like the way that Hayes always always described in the books was a little more put together, a little like you could you know, he had a humanside that you saw come out a little bit around Nico and stuff, because it was always like scarier to me in the books and

more aggressive. And I just I agree with you. I thought Aries casting was really, really, really good, and I liked how he was portrayed. I felt like the battle between him and person was very anticlimactic. Unfortunately it kinda is in the book too. It is it is but I don't know. I was picturing something a little more grandiose. But I agree that the casting I thought was was excellent. I also like that, like I'm starting a Twitter fight, like I love just making people feel like bringing that

into the modern age was cool. Yeah, I don't know, man, Haydes just didn't. And it's funny because I have multiple friends like who grew up with me, same like went to school with me and had been percy fans of me since day one. All of us have all agreed on that Hades was just weird. It just wasn't how we ever it pictured him. I don't know. It's just very odd and off putting. For me.

He's always been this kind of like scary version of like a goth, like a goth who grew up kind of like this weird cross of like Jerref the Goblin King from Labyrinth and Jack Skellington from Nightmare before Christmas and like you know, Lucius Malfoy, you know, and like that kind of like menace in a soft voice, you know, and like gorgeous, put together three piece suit and black eyeliner. And yeah, it was not and his whole attitude felt very and it's because like a god of the dead, and yeah,

again, if you're disneying it down doesn't work as well. But when you think about how these books are written for kids but still come across much carrier and so why do you think they changed the ending so dramatically in terms of they don't finish the Quest on time? Zeus does start the war. Even after Zeus knows that there's no reason to start a war with Poseidon, he still wants to fight a war and Poseidon surrenders in order to end the war.

I don't know. Rick went out of his way in an interview to say that it doesn't really change the ending, and it all would make sense, and I was like believing him, and then I saw it and I was like, are you kidding me? I think that it the fact, like the fact that the Percy, Animeath and Grover overcame everything and finished a Quest on time, was a testament to their strength and their courage and their

endurance, and I thought that taking that away was insulting. I think that they only in reality, I think they had only Zeus up there to save money on having to pay a cast of sixteen actors to all sit in on Mount Olympus, and I feel like Percy first walking into Mount Olympus and seeing all of the gods and seeing how small he was compared to them, was again would have lent some canter to what Luke was saying and beside him being

kind of aloof towards him versus in here, he's like defending Percy and like, I surrender. Okay, they made Zeus. They did make Zeus feel as jerky and angry and proud as he was in the book. And I really think lou Reddick did it perfectly. Be said it again, soft so soft, like I don't think we said in the book would surrender it just for Percy. It just didn't. It just didn't feel true to the way the characters were in the book for me, and I was, I don't

know, I felt like they didn't need to do any of that. We could have very easily made the change they wanted to make and still had to end the normal way. Yeah, Amelia, would you think I agree? You know? I mean, if I'm trying to believe in Rick, I'm trying like he hasn't hurt me, he hasn't really really hurt me. Yet I want to have faith that it's all going to make sense. There is a war coming though, that's the whole purpose of the first five books.

There's a war, you know, but it's not It's not like that. And then with Poseidon defending him and just that whole inter connection right there, like I hated that, Like that dynamic never happened in the book between Sidon and Zeus, and no point was beside it every like submissive to Zeus or really were they, you know, ever directly in contact other than discussing things

about Percy, right, you know. And I feel like just if you had a moment where Aries was up there and a seed was up there, you got to see the glare and like just kind of like, you know, the fact that I always picture with the air getting sucked out of the room as this little rebellious demigod who was only nob who's been at deemic good for two weeks, walks in and it's already sticking it to them, Like it just it felt like as a kid reading that, I was like,

like, this is like when I feel really passionate about something like and I stick up for myself or talk back to an adult, That's how I would feel and they will kind of look at me and then they're like what is this, Like, you know, if his kid might might be right, but we're the adults in the room, so we're going to exert ourselves over him. And like I felt that as a kid. I felt that I experienced that, and I felt they didn't portray that in the show, like

he was just Zeus being angry. Yeah, yeah, I think it's very true. I think because because when Poseidon surrenders, like what happens, there's no stakes in that war whatsoever? Right, Like, what's is it just rollover? You know? Could we know that the war's starting for no good purpose? If the war is to get the ball back, but you have the bolt back already, like who cares? Just to prove that Zeus is

that petty? Yeah, And I was like that's just it's just it was just silly to me, and like he didn't seem I know about Kronos. I know, I'm not surprised by this, Like it's just I don't know, like in the in the books, the gods kept ignoring it and saying you're wrong, like Chronos is, Cronos can't come back, we can handle

it. He just it feels like Zeus takes it more seriously in the show, and I feel like in the books it's portrayed as them being very like nonchalant, like we are much like the Jedi Council, Matthew, very like Aloof and like we can't be beaten. They're done, They're dead, the Titans are gone. Like I don't know, it's just I would say that Kronos' portrayal is being this like creepy creature in his dreams. I thought it was pretty cool. I thought that was a good portrayal. The dreams of

Percy had of Chronos was was cool. Yeah. And I love they called him Grandpa. Yeah I did. I did so. I was like, don't call him that. That was great. Well, it's been a great conversation. Thank you guys so much. Any last comments, and Melia, I'm gonna start with you. Well, I just hope that this gets big enough that we get the rest of the books. Like, personally, my favorite is Heroes of Olympus over the other three or the other two series,

and I would just I want to see those characters come to life. I want to see Jason, Piper, Leo, Hazel, Frank, I want to see them and more than I want to see Percy. So I just really hope this show goes well. I hope we get five seasons, and I hope we get many more. I don't know how the possible. They're child actors. They're rapidly aging. I noticed in several points that I could tell where reshoots had been done on Walker's struggle, because he looked visibly older

in scenes. Yeah. Yeah, especially in the last episode, there were reshoots because he looked older. And like, if you want to know why this is a problem, watch the last season of Stranger Things. Yeah, where it's obvious that a couple of those kids have hit their puberty growth spirit and a couple of them have not, and they look dramatically different. And why they're doing there From what I read at the Avatar show on Netflix,

they're recording season two. Are they almost finished recording the second season because they're trying to record all three seasons in under like a year, so they have them all be the same age. Still, Yeah, that's what you have to do with child actors. Yeah, yeah, because that whole show happens within a year. Yeah, you're right. The actual animated show in Percy Jackson. The kids age, I mean they should be, you know,

about to graduate by the time it ends. But still, I would like to ask one one more question before we go about to write Matthew to both of you. I have always been of the mindset and I want to I enjoyed the show, but I always been of the mindset that Percy Jackson lends itself better to an animated show. Yes, I'm curious the two of you think about that. Uh be Like, I feel like that it's that's true for every book, and that's something I was thinking about earlier today that I

wanted to bring up on this. So that's really good. Like a lot of books, especially fantasy books and things like that that have like an element to that where would be a little better animated, are getting turned into too TV shows and movies, and I'm like, we need to not make these live actions. We need to animate these. Then you don't have to you know, it's cheaper I think overall compared to the CGI budget. You'll be able to get the seasons out more rapidly. You don't have to worry about

people aging, you know. I feel like a lot of books, especially with the fantasy element would be better done animated. I would say, you know, all this stuff about areas with the fire in his eyes and like the twelve foot tall version of Hades before ten foot tall version before he shrinks down to human size. Yeah, like it may have been the right decision not to do that because it appeared cheesy in live action with the hecks they

have. But yeah, I think then, I think for far too long, too many people, myself included, saw animation as kind of like, well, what live action is the real stuff? And I think we just got to stop that entirely. There's some story. Pneumona is one of my favorite, I think, one of the best movies that came out last I wish it was in the Best Picture discussion. And I think Nimoto would not work at all as live action. Yeah, and I mean, I mean,

I look at I'm a big anime fan. You look at you know, stories being told an anime, you know, made in Japan, and like an example, I mean an extreme example, but like One Piece is about like young people and that show is going on for over twenty years and the characters haven't really aided very much in the show where you're able to keep

telling the story indefinitely, because all you need is a voice actor. And I think that like the ability to do so much of what they do in Princy Jackson, all the fantasy elements, Like they didn't even include Ergus in the live action show because they didn't want to pay the CGI budget of putting all the eyes on somebody like. I just think that the animated an animated series would allow them like, like you know, like you said to Melia,

like to paste it out to to really like. And also you could make a twenty episode animated show and no one would bat an eye for an animated season to be like that. Yeah, Like twenty episodes in live action cost a ton of money. People would be like that's too much. Animated it happens all the time, and you would have been able to give more time to way things out. And I just think, I don't know, that's just not that this show is bad. I really enjoy it. I

hope we get all this show episodes as well. But I think one day I would love to see an animated adaptation of this book series. Yeah, I think it's true. I will say though, in terms of casting, I forgot the person who I think was perhaps the best casting of anyone in the entire show. But can I guess go for it? Do you think

it's Denis Denisus? Yeah, I mean it's the one character we haven't really talked about it all, but yeah, Jason manzakas I think the last name, yes, fully, her degree good, perfectly, he give body. Yeah, especially Grouchy hasn't been able to have a drink or have any fun with satyrs. Yeah. I saw that casting for the first Yeah, yeah, that that change. I was so okay with him just being like bringing Percy and circles like son. Yes, it's me. Yeah, you can

do whatever he wants with the care and it's right because it's correct. Yeah. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. All right, Well, thank you both. In our bonus section, we're gonna talk a little about like thoughts for the coming seasons. Uh. I think a simple fact that we all want more of this, We just want it to be a little bit better. It already puts this miles and miles ahead of the books,

So I'm so glad for that. Ahead of the movies. I mean, I think the books are clearly the best TV shows next, and the movies are you know, the movies. The less spoken about them, the better. I'll just say again, thank you to both of you so much for being here. If you're not a member, thank you so much for listening. You can become a member for just five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. You get ad free content, you get the bonus

content. And we're now doing bonus episodes over on the Star Wars Galaxies podcast. We're doing a book club. We are probably gonna be starting a book club here in Superhero Ethic Land as well. So there's lots of great reasons to be on there for the bonus content. And uh yeah, so thank you much. Thank you both so much for mega part of this episode. Uh to all our listeners. We have spoken. Matthew, I love you bout mc funny. For one thing. You have mentioned the podcast twice this

episode and got the name wrong both times. What did I say? You said? First? You said Star Wars Universe, he said Star Wars Galaxies like, oh the other podcast, okay, haven't got yeah, Star Wars Generations podcast. Thank you, thank you. We have spoken,