Mike Flanagan and Horror as Social Commentary

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This is the first October in a number of years where we haven't had a new show by Mike Flanagan, and for those who don't know, Mike Flanagan is the person who's given us great things in the last couple of years, like the Haunting of Hillhouse and Blind Manner, Midnight Mass, Midnight Club, and of course, most recently, the Fall of the House of Usher and Danielle and I, Danielle has been a frequent guest on this show, have been talking about how important his stuff is and wanting

to talk about horror and how he approaches horror as a way of talking about the kind of social issues that we love to talk about on this podcast. And

I was just getting ready for that. I remember that Riki Hayashi, my co host on Star Wars, and as we were getting ready for that or a remembered, of course that Riki, our co host here, has for a long time been reminding me that he's a big horror fan and wants to do more in the genre of horror, and so I thought, you know what, this is a perfect time to bring both these folks together have a conversation about Mike Flanagan, the flannagan Verse, if you will,

and sort of what he's doing with the horror genre and how that is appealing to those of us in the to talk about Mike Flanagan and what he's doing with the horror genre. So Rieki, let me actually start with you and let me just ask what is it about horror that you really love and that really speaks to you?

do I love about horror? It is actually like, as a fan of science fiction, I feel like horror has become, or maybe always has been, such a great reflection of our society and like reflecting it back to us and asking questions about, like what is going on in society right now? Like what are people afraid of? Right? Because

that's like horror's fear. What are people afraid of? And how can we create like whether it's like supernatural or just like a human horror figure that represents that and is killing people or scaring people in a way that is fun as a movie or a TV show, but if you stop and think about it is a reflect of our society, and that to me like the history of horror, especially like for me, like starting around the seventies and eighties, like you can trace back like all

of the scares going around in society and like thinking about like, oh yeah, this is actually a representation of like AIDS was a big one in the eighties, I guess if you go back like more to the fifties sixties, like sci fi horror crossover like obviously like nuclear proliferation, proliferation and fallout, like in movies like them like The Radioactive Monsters Gogita of course, which originally I do think

was was a horror movie. So yeah, like that that to me, like I love horror because science fiction, I think has gotten kind of away from social commentary, at least in like television movies is often just like it's the future and there's like lasers and spaceships, and there's still good sci fi products that are asking questions and presenting humanity back to us. But I think horror like has has consistently been doing that, So that that is to me what I love about the genre.

sense of understanding than it does terror. And I think that's also why I cling so much to Mike Flanagan, but also when it comes to like books, to more authors of authors of color, especially indigenous authors. I think, right, some of the best, like some of the best horror books I've ever read, have been written by indigenous authors, because I think they understand that and they're aiming for that sense of hope at the end instead of just

pure terror. And that's what makes horror to me so good is that it's not afraid to go into the depths of darkness because it knows it's going to find its way back out in the end, and so that I just really appreciate that that kind of power it has.

And I want to talk just a bit more about this historical point because Riaki, I'm not sure if this is your experience, but it sounds like we're kind of on the same page. I grew up in the age where horror movies meant Freddy Krueger and Jason and like the Friday the Thirteenth movies, the Nightmare and elm Street the Halloweens, which I think were all about jump scare and being as gory as possible and kind of like gross out as possible, and that's what I always associated

horror with. I remember being at a panel at a science fiction discussion con that I went to a number of years ago and it really blew my mind talking about how what you're saying rieky about the six seventies and eighties, but even going all the way back to the fifties. I hadn't known this, but apparently because horror in the fifties was seen as so kind of it's just where teenagers go to drive ins to have on while they make out in cars and whatever, no one

paid attention to it. And that included the McCarthy commission and all the Red Scare stuff, so things like Invasion of the Body Snatchers, which is very much political commentary. People started to realize they could get away with this stuff that McCarthy was going to cut and the blacklists were going to hit them with in any other genre if they did it in horror. And so yeah, I love that historical tradition is still very much alive. And I feel like that's exactly what Mike Flanagan does in

terms of in his show. And we'll go into some of these specific questions, but in his shows, I think we've seen everything explored from you know, family trauma to the trauma of abuse, and how in both cases, like the metaphorical idea of trauma, creating ghosts becoming literal to religion as a scary concept in Midnight Mass and how that all plays out to all the stories in Fall of Usher, which are mostly about like human vice and the idea of where the horrors really the terrible things

humans will do, and how that become expressed primarily for greed. So yeah, I just think there's just Plannagan especially seems really dedicated to this the idea of social commentary.

physically as well. It has its first physical release this past month, and he said that ever since then he went, he dedicated himself to not ending his horror in a depressing mode, because in his mind, horror has to end with some element of hope in order for it to be truly effective. And I absolutely agree with that because it teaches a lesson. I think in that case, it gives you something to take from it instead of just

taking a piece of you with it, I think. And so I really like that, and I see with his shows with everyone, we get more and more social commentary slightly different versions of it too, which I think is really great. And a lot of that comes from Mike Flannagan's own experiences. Midnight Mass arguably, in my opinion, his greatest of his series. It was pulled directly from his

own experiences in the Catholic Church. He grew up Catholic, and a lot of Zach Guildford's character, a lot of his like wonderings about philosophy and about life and religion, are Mike Flanagan's own wonderings about it. And I think also he used to be or he is, an alcoholic.

I think of recovering alcoholic and so a lot of that went into it as well, well, and just such care because of his personal experiences with it, but also just just you know, general empathy for various parts of society and wanting to show the issues that everyone faces and how it doesn't have to be there. Their horror can spring from that, but that doesn't have to be all that there is. And so I view it as both a warning but also yeah, just kind of like hope at.

But you mentioned Midnight mass being your favorite, I to me, the Haunting of hill House is it will always be I think my favorite. Planning in it is one of the few shows that we actually just like rewatch over and over again, probably like around this time around Halloween, because it's just so masterfully made in a way like a lot of people think of horror as jump scares, right, and like once you know that they're coming, they're less scary.

But then like in the genre, like it's such a trope you can watch and be like oh, yeah, like they're filming this in a way that a jump scar is coming, so now it's not going to scare me, and now you have kind of like the fake out and the secondary jump scare. There's a jump scare in this in this TV show Hillhouse, even when you know it's coming, it's just like one of the most terrifying things because of like how well it's filmed and how well the tension builds to that moment. I just I

love the show. There's one episode I think it's the Storm that that takes place in the funeral home, and it's mostly like one take. I think it's like three takes like come together very masterfully and it's amazing, like and I've watched behind the scenes footage of like how they filmed it. It is such a good episode, like just the top five television episode of all time in my opinion.

kind of like mystical aspects of it and everything. And one thing I appreciate so much about Midnight Mass is that it doesn't have that. It's more it leans into something different, something, in my opinion, a lot deeper, and a lot that resonates a lot more with people who

also grew up in the Catholic Church. That pools this I think unsettling feeling that a lot of us have had to the surface and examined it in a way that the possession trope doesn't really His possession is expected, and I mean to an extent, it's part of the Catholic teachings and everything. But what he does with the horror that he chooses to use instead is slightly less expected, but even more meaningful and powerful, I think, And so that's also why I appreciate it so much of all his work.

of some of the overall outline of the plot. The show is about a small island off the coast of Maine, and this is somewhat intentional. If you're thinking, oh, that sounds like a Stephen King reference, Mike Flannagan is on record is being a very big Stephen King fan. He actually just made a movie based on some Stephen King stories, and so I think it's very intentional. This is a small New England town where there's kind of one church in town. Everyone's Catholic and that's kind of the center

of the whole town. And the town has been dying for some time. People are moving to the mainland. A lot of the industries that help keep the town businesses going for a long time have failed. And into this situation there comes a young priest, and the priest is kind of new and full of ideas.

you know, had been there for a million years. He has retired and so now the town is kind of all swept up because this young priest comes in with all this energy and he's kind of making the Catholic Church seem fun and passionate and powerful and not as angry as it used to be, and he's showing that like miraculous things are possible, and even getting to the point of literal miracles starting to occur, and over the course of the story you come to realize that there's

actually a lot of corruption happening and a terrible price being paid to make what is possible possible, And over the course.

that was a really powerful way to show this. I also think that Zach Gilford's character whose name I can't remember, I want to say Tommy, but I.

I don't know. Much more of an Irish name than Riley Flynn. So just kind of putting out that was very much lampshaded. Is like, this guy's Irish, Irish American.

He's back on the island from prison after a horrific accident that he caused while he was drunk, and a lot of his storyline is him coming to terms with how he can live with what he did, and whether he wants to live with what he did or not, and how faith plays into that, how how his perspective on life plays into it, like this this event as it should have drastically changed his life, and a lot of his monologues are around that, around uh, philosophy and

and faith, and his last, the last monologue he gives, is to be one of the most powerful ones. I think they all are. I think all of Riley's monologues are probably some of my favorite monologues that I've ever that I've ever watched, uh, but the last one especially is just it's incredibly beautiful and it's a lot about what we're willing to sacrifice for our faith and what we're not, and what we're willing to sacrifice for our

lives and what we're not. And as I'm no longer Catholic, but I guess I technically always are if you've confirmed no, no, yeah, technicalities, but you know, having grown up in it, like I could tell instantly, I knew that Mike Flanagan. I knew who Mike clanagan was because of his work. I didn't know so much of him at the point of watching Midnight Mass for the first time that I knew he was Catholic. And when I watched it, like from the first episode, I turned to my partner and I said,

the person who made this is Catholic. There is no way that someone who didn't grow up and not just a converted Catholic, someone who grew up Catholic. There's no way that someone who didn't grow up Catholic made this show.

Absolutely no way. Because I've seen shows in movies and read books that involve Catholicism that are by people who either came to Catholicism later in life, left it really really really early, to the point where they don't really remember that much or weren't Catholic at all, and you can tell, like it's like there are intricacies to midnight Mass that are so detailed and so specific, down to the like you only know that because you sat in a pew at her for the whole hour you went

to actual midnight Mass during Christmas. You have experienced this on the most intimate level. And that is part of why I love it so much, because I've never felt really that before from something that wasn't trying to like reconvert me into Catholicism, but something that was showing it for all of the colors that it is. And that's the good feelings that you have towards it when you were brought up Catholic, the bad feelings you have towards

it when you leave, and everything in between. It doesn't say this is absolutely horrible or this is the best thing in the world. It says that this is a complicated, really at times messed up, but sometimes beautiful thing. And all of those can coexist and we can talk about that and it can look like this it's funny.

guilt and salvation and stuff like that. And so there were parts of it that I felt like I could engage in, but I definitely had that feeling of like, this is not about the Christianity that I understand that I'm a part of, and it is a very particular kind of thing, as you have the Catholicism. He uses these elements of religion and of the supernatural, but again show you that actually the scariest things are what we

humans do. There's a plot at the beginning about how the new sheriff is Muslim and his son is Muslim, and the woman who is sort of the one of the people who helps to run the Catholic Church, and

she's a whole over plotline as well. And a lot of my friends who who are women ministers and pastors and priests and the Episcopal Church have said how much they kind of relate to her character in some ways or have seen people like her character because she's someone who really loved the church and kind of would have wanted to be priest but couldn't because she was a woman, and sort of where that takes her and she winds up leading this crusade to like teach the Bible in

school and being very fearful of this Muslim cop And as scary as all this supernatural it is, it's the human stuff that's the scariest. Mike Flanagan loves flashbacks, and Mike Flanagan loves to show you an image a couple of times that's clearly something a character is thinking about

before letting you understand what the image is. And one of the images we get is when Riley is kind of having flashbacks or but before we know what he's having flashbacks too, is this image of a human face that looks like it has been the victim of something horrific and terrible and like at first, I think you only see half of the face or something like that, and it looks like something like, you know, maybe it's a monster itself or it was attacked by a monster,

and eventually the camera pulls back enough on the subsequent viewings of it that you see that it is nothing to do with horror. It's the person who was in the other car who died because of the drunk driving accident that Riley Finn was in. But I certainly thought it was supposed to be an image of something monstrous, And I just that moment especially hit home for me how much he's really pointing this idea of like, yeah, horror is scary, but the stuff we humans do is

actually even worse. We don't need the horror to be scared of humans.

Or to say that you know, it's okay, you didn't mean it, because what worst thing could have happened than taking someone's life? And he didn't mean to, Like, what worst thing could could that happen could have happened, and he just he portrays that so well, not really with words, but just with his actions, his physicality and his eyes.

And so every time he sees that face is to me just such such a powerful, powerful moment and a reminder of like you said, like, it's not just the horror, we create our own worst horrors, I think, and that is kind of the just an example of that, a reflection of that.

but kind of similar. And I'll also say, like I know people who are who are you know, feel like they were really treated horribly by the church, you know, laughed Catholics as well or whatever you want to call them, and they won't touch it with a ten foot poll because they're like I get to relive my therapy, I get I get to relive my experiences with colicism every time you go to therapy.

questionable tradition, is quite beautiful. And there's there's something about you know, having this routine and knowing it and whenever your entire life is you know kind of maybe like up in flames, that you have this one thing that is there, steady and the same. And even though that doesn't call to me anymore, I understand why it does to people, and I understand why it used to me.

But there's now for me because I've separated myself from it more than I did when I was younger, and I've seen other perspectives of it, and I've I've allowed myself to question things that I didn't allow myself to before.

There's an unsettling nature to it, and I think that those scenes Dering Mass perfectly, somehow perfectly encapsulate all of those complicated feelings for me, the sense of beauty, because I think I think I've seen Micha planning to talk about like there is something that still pulls to him about it, and it is like there is a sense of beauty to it. There's a sense of tradition and a sense of of like I said, routine that calls to you sometimes, but I don't want to go back

to that. And those scenes in the church made me like felt like all of my feelings about that were being shown visually, and the same with you know, just how the characters, the different characters relate to Catholicism. I have been where Riley's been when it comes to like not wanting to have anything to do with the church at all and not understanding why anyone wants to at all and just being so like reluctant and ambivalent and

you know, just kind of hateful towards it. But I've also been where now I can't remember any characters names anymore, but Kate Siegel's character, who is Riley's childhood friend slash former partner whatever. Maybe they might have dated a little

bit when they were teenagers. She left the island, and I think leaving the island is also symbolic of leaving the church in my mass, and so she also left the island, left the church, didn't go to church for many many years, came back to the island, took over her childhood home and goes to church every Sunday, and her and Riley talk about this about how why did she come back? Why is he not coming back? Why

why did he stay away? All of these things? And I was once at a point in my life where I left and I went back, and so I understand like what she's saying her monologues about it and what pulls her back to it, and so it was it was genuinely just every question and every thought I've ever had about the church is like I think people think that leaving the Catholic Church is an easy thing to do, but it's really it's really not, especially when when you were raised in it and when your entire family is

in it. On both sides, it's a decision that you don't have to just explain to yourself, but you have to explain to every single person in your life, and to them a lot of the times, even if they're like casual Catholics, breaking away from the Catholic Church is one of the worst things that you could do. And they don't understand it. They don't want to understand it. They just want to pretend like it's not actually a

thing that you've chosen. And so I just felt I felt so so seen in all of those those monologues and in the mass scenes too, because of that, and the.

you will ever be. And that's definitely how it is. And in Midnight Mass is I think they they spend funds to kind of you know, keep the church nice, to keep the hall. That was another thing every And I wonder, I want to know where my clanigan grew up if he grew up in a small town, because small town Catholic dioceses are very different than like big like if you go to a Catholic church in the city, because you usually have this this hall that they raise

money for it. The money that goes in the collection, part of it goes to building that hall. And that is what happened in Midnight Mass. Too, like they people spent their last pennies giving too this uh, this fund to pay for that hall for an island that has like maybe fifty people.

Like you calculate it. You give five dollars every Sunday, you go to church every Sunday. What does that add up to, like you know, and adds up to a lot of money? And what is it going towards? Two? And that's a question that Benni Mass asks as well. Is I think not just what the church is making you do, but what people allow themselves to to believe and to buy into from the church as well.

people are you know, becoming something like vampires.

a lot about that. But I also feel like I never felt like because I wasn't a Catholic, that I wasn't getting it, you know, I felt like I could understand everything else as well.

I just I love. I love when creators are able to balance.

making fun of it. But the Haunting of hill House, the TV series, the Mike Flannagan TV Show uses very little CGI for its scares, and I think that is to me what stood out while watching it and is one of my most endearing memories of it. And we talked about jump scares earlier, and there's a very effective jump scare in this show, but the scariest thing about

this show are the non jump scares. There are static ghosts, just like faces and figures hidden in the background throughout the run of the show that just like never interact with the characters. They're just standing there, and the first time you notice one in the background, you just like freak the heck out, And then you start to watch and you're like looking very intently.

way that I had very rarely experienced in horror. Is just like something that's there, and it one of the most interesting things about it is that it makes you watch the show once you realize what's going on, once you see your first one, so much of media, like for me at least, like I'm on my phone, maybe I'm like playing a game on my phone or like

scrolling through like you know, social media. This show you have to watch it, like you have to be watching it actively because you want to see those, you want to be scared by those, and that like that's one of the best things that it did.

then go to bed. After like the fifth episode, we forced ourselves to go to bed because one in the morning, we got nothing done the rest of the next day because all we wanted to do was watch it and then stayed up two in the morning the next night watching it.

And then that's one of the things that I think is very effective about this is like you just have to accept, Hey, this house is haunted. Things happen, and then what is the show about, Like, it's not about really the haunting or the ghosts. It is about this family and how they have been shaped by a traumatic event and how they deal with with their grief over

this event and you know, they've lost. It takes place in two different time periods, like when the original incident happens and then like many years later when they're revisiting the incident and coming back to the house together and like talking to each other and dealing with the trauma. And it's really about the trauma of the family and how you overcome grief.

I don't know how many episodes is hill House? Is it like eight?

But for me, within the first episode, I was like Oh, like I can, I can group these characters immediately based because that's how much you know about them, And and I just I think that that was one of the strongest aspects of Hunting Pillhouse for sure. Yeah, I just absolutely I love it too. The line that Nell says, the rest is just confetti gets me every time in context too of what it is. Yeah, I love this.

that character. Like the other characters interact with them and exist and maybe have like subplots, but it's usually like the one character, like we're gonna follow them for this episode, and then they come together I think in that storm episode, and the show really like takes off from there and then never stops. But it devotes that time in the first half to the characters so that we get to know them so well.

you were the star last time. You're more of a side character now, but we're all gonna be in this. And it was always so funny to me because to me, he accomplishes these two things and I think often are odds with each other, which is both that from a technical filmmaking standpoint, it is utter brilliance, you know, things

like the ghosts that appear. It's I think all of his shows, but especially Hill House, is one of the most rewatchable, like the third time, the fourth time you watch it, you're gonna be finding new things every time. And I think a lot of his shows are best the second time because like you said once, you know, those ghosts are there you go back and watch and you start seeing them all the time and wondering why didn't to see them before, or.

some of them still believe it's supernatural. Some of them have just come to terms with understand that it wasn't supernatural, It was just random accidents. They kind of explained it away. Some of them have developed a drug problems. One of one character in particular, is kind of marketing it and has made himself into like I am one of those ghost hunter people, and he you know, he doesn't believe it.

But because there's all this like cachet around the story, and I think you can watch it specifically because you like the idea of supernatural at a haunted house, but I also think you can watch it and see you

understand that all these things are metaphors. You know that there's a traumatic event that happens in a family, and twenty five years later, everyone remembers it a different way, and everyone relates to it a different way, and everyone's kind of isolated from each other because they don't want their reality of it to bounce up against someone else's, you know, and like so much of it just felt so real, like that even in this movie, there's also

about a haunted house and ghosts and jump scares and all this kind of stuff.

think Zach Gilford's best performance is in Midnight Mass. Kate Siegel gives the best performance of her life in every single show Mike Flanagan project. And I think that that says a lot about him because I've heard from all of these actors they say that how wonderful he is to work with, and I really think that there's a collaborative effort there and that he inspires the best in these actors because of the way that he approaches this

and probably the trust he puts in them. I think bringing them back for projects is also a sign of his trust in them. And it's funny because I see him bringing these actors back differently than I see Ryan Murphy bringing actors back for his.

but still completely different. But I just I think that the stories wouldn't be as good if there wasn't that sense of trust and collaboration I think behind the camera as well.

where they basically like it's it's two different focuses. So they'll focus on the foreground character and then like something's happening in the background that's blurry, and then they switch the folk to the background when when they want the

audience to notice the background. What they do on this show is they have split diopter shots like that where there's absolutely nothing in the background, but the focus will shift because there's a ghost there, so it's not even like a hidden ghost, it's just like an invisible ghost.

And it's again, it's so unsettling because we are so used to these shots and the focus shifts and it's like, oh, yeah, now I'm focusing on thinking the background and you don't even realize like what's going like is there something there?

Like I don't see anything, there's nothing there, but like the focus is shifted, and it is absolutely like masterful, Like going back and watching some of these shots and realizing that when you watched it the first time, yeah, like you were unsettled by the shot of just a character talking because they switched the focus of the camera.

in fall a haunting at Hillhouse. There's a like sexuality awakening by by awakening maybe or lesbian awakening for for her and as you know, someone I'm by and I only came to that really like true realization you know, later in life. And I think the that incorporation into this horror story is just so beautiful because that's not the horror, that is like the light in the dark of this, and her relationship becomes the like the one

solid foundation that always pulls her back. And I just think that that is so so beautiful and such a beautiful take on this. Some people say that it's kill your gaze, but it's not. And adamantly against that. It's not. The relationship is a beautiful, fulfilled relationship that has a somewhat but we're not sure yet sad ending And I just I just think it's abolutely beautiful and it makes me cry every every single time.

not necessarily the actual house. But yes, Roderick has several children, all from different all but two of them from different women, and he has kept in touch with all of them, and they all have a part in his very big pharmaceutical empire, and eventually, due to situations that you find out later in the show, each of his children And this isn't a spoiler because this literally is the like foundation of the show. They say it within the first

couple of minutes of the show. All of his children eventually die, and each episode is dedicated to one of those children and how they meet their ultimate demice. And each episode is titled after a different Poe work. Each character is titled after either a or is named after either a Poe character or someone from edgroulland Poe's life.

And yeah, and each event is a post story or multiple post stories together, so they're not necessarily like the biggest adaptation within each episode isn't necessarily from the title of that episode from the work that it's titled after, but it does play a part in it, and so it's genuinely like, this is why I need to meet Mike Flinnick in one day because we need to have a serious discussion about Edgrow and Poe, because once again I watched this and I was like, I know a

fellow Poe bro when I see one, because only only then would you know, like have the idea to put it together this way, or to include these little easter eggs, like, for example, the main characters their their their neighbor who he doesn't like as a child and who was very cruel to him and he ultimately kind of gets revenge against him, is named Longfellow. And uh, that's not a

Poe character. But in Edgar Allan Poe's actual life, when he was a literary critic, which is where he got most of his notoriety from while he was alive, he tore to shreds the work of Longfellow, who is a very well renowned nineteenth century American poet wrote Paul Revere's Ride. But Edgar Allan Poe absolutely despised him, wrote horrible things about his work, called him a fraud, and I think

accused him of plagiarism as well. And and so that's something that you don't know unless you know Poe's history, And like his life, and so I just thought that was a little like it's a thing that I think it's good for. I think people who don't know Poe as well was still enjoy it. But if you do, it's like again like Midnight Mass, If you get it,

it's on another level. And so yeah, that's that's kind of the The gist of the show is that so many of Poe's works just kind of woven in to tell this bigger story that is ultimately uniquely Mike Flanagan. And I think I said in the video I did about this show, or I don't know if I did it in the video, but Poe's work is so like macabre and so just out there and at times like just really like I think crazy, especially for his time, and you read it sometimes you're like, how does someone

like come up with this? Even if you are a horror fan, it's still just kind of like what were

you thinking? And I love that about him. But as you know, times change, that type of style also changes to reflect our own society and our own you know, understandings of things, and so that type of like effing crazy stuff turns into something else and something more like what Mike Plan again has created with the Fall of the House Splasher, and so I've seen some people say that they don't think it's really a good reflection of Poe and his work, but I actually think it's one

of the best. I think that it understands Poe on a very deep level, kind of further than the matic goes on a thematic level, but also deeper than that as well.

way it's which I did. And I think, like this is like a thing that, for example, like Marvel stuff is starting to lose, right. It's like people are like, I don't understand this Marvel thing anymore because you need to have like a degree in Marvel, and you know, me a fan without a degree in PO, Like, I loved this, like it was so good and I I, you know, like you see the episode titles, like I recognize that I kind of vaguely remember the story, so I think this is going to happen, and it does.

But it they they tie it in with what is going on in such a good way, and especially like with the modern world. The fact that the Usher family owns this pharmaceutical company was just like so on and so on, and I was like, oh yeah, So like immediately they're telling us like this guy has an a hole, he's evil, and he has exploited like people for for profits, right, and it's just like a good way to shorthand character.

And then like showing the way that he did it in the flashbacks is like oh wow, yeah, Like I didn't I didn't know we were going to go that that evil.

It can be difficult, right, but this is hopefully like a is considered like a good way of honoring the work of po.

have sex with you. It's I'm gonna just tease and I'm going to be alluring and I'm going to get you not only to want me, but to want what I'm offering. And when I say seductive, I don't just mean the seduction of her body, although that comes across, that comes. That is literally the case at least one or two cases. But it's seducing them into doing the

things that she wants them to do. And it's the you know, to me, going back where we started, possession is boring, Manipulation is interesting, and manipulation should be when I know just the very subtle buttons to push to get you to do the worst thing that you can do, not because I made you, but because it's always been in you. I just needed to push the right buttons.

it could look like. This is your choice, like you were saying, Matthew, and like there's moments in the show where you see that she doesn't want necessarily want people to choose the worst option, and that if there's a time with a person that she can give them grace to her best ability, because it's almost like she is forced to do these things as well, and if there's a moment where she can give someone grace who deserves it, she will, even if even as she has to perform

these these acts that that aren't aren't nice to watch or aren't pretty to watch, she will try to give the people who deserve it peace and grace while doing that. And I think that that is such a a great way to show this character that starts off kind of as an antagonist and you realize as the show goes on it's a lot it's a lot more complicated than that.

and it's like, yeah, I guess so like that. That was the thing that got to me is it's set up in such a way that she's going about her actions and I just I loved it. I don't know, I don't know if love is ever. It's like, yes, dude, you're.

the world and tempt them. In every case, she only appears when a person has already gotten themselves into kind of a bad situation because of their greed, because of their malfeasance, because of whatever else is going on in their lives, and and it's always a kind of like, well, I could get you out of this, but wouldn't you rather I, uh, you know, help you face justice, Like I think she would love Riley Finn you know, because Riley Finn feels guilt, and in some ways, I think

that's she often wants people to confront the monstrosity of what they've done, but instead they're like, Nope, nope, let's cover it up, let's deny it more. And some of them are outwardly malicious, and others of them are convinced they're doing good things because they just won't accept looking at the horrible things they've done.

structural run time and like pacing perspective. It's just like very very compelling, well made and satisfying.

But when it's episodic but it doesn't feel like it has to be, or when it's one long thing but it feels like it's chopped up in ways that don't make sense, like, both of those can be problematic.

and then there are each section. There's three sections. Each section or part of the book has that those you know, a rise, a climax, and you know a kind of resolution, but it still ends like right before the resolution. I guess there is some somewhat of a resolution, but ends right before enough to make you want to keep going. And so each chapter has that, each part has that, and the book as a whole has that. And that's kind of how I view Mike Plannigan's work is that

for every show, each episode has that arc. You could take a group of episodes and say they have that arc. Like in The Haunting of Hill House, you have at the beginning each episode is kind of dedicated to a family member, a sibling. You get those bunch together, and then you go on to the to the kind of

where they're all kind of mixing together. Once you have this understanding of it, and so I view it really as a like I said with Suzanne Collins, an understanding of the craft and a really really good execution of it. Once you understand it, then it becomes and once you put your own little twist and flare and signature to it, then it becomes maybe a bit easier to apply that to different stories.

waited and seen them all at the same time. Yeah, because you're right, they're also well crafted, but they do still really have me like, Okay, but what now what next?

I mentioned, we mentioned the core actors that he works with pretty much consistently throughout, and that's the type of thing that like the trust between them and the understanding of their skills, like their strengths and weaknesses as actors, but also probably like challenging them and knowing like, hey, on this next project, I want to stretch you in this way that we haven't tried before. And probably like having those kinds of honest conversations is what leads to

these performances. Like so many of these performances are just top notch, like it is. It is one of the best like performance based TV shows. I feel like that I watch because of this, and like you don't realize it, I think when you're watching it at first, but once you understand flanning In and his his people, you're like, Okay, this is starting to make more sense. Like I understand now like why these people keep showing up at shows, but also like why they're giving such great performances.

pull it around and they wouldn't want to see, you know, obviously in the scene that wheels have gone through the carpet and left it there. And so they used this for a while and when they got to the scene I can't remember when it is in the show, but it's when all the siblings are together and their fight. They're arguing and it's kind of like a one shot and the camera goes between them and around them and shows like their different perspectives as they're arguing with each other.

And on the day they were filming this, the Dolly, the thing that made it not leave tracks in the carpet, was picking up these fibers from the carpet that was kind of corroding the metal and the and the the workability of it being able to move. And the person who was operating this went up to Mike and was like, we can't do much more with this, otherwise it's going to break. And he was like, well, can we get

another one? The only place like within reasonable distance of them that had a one wouldn't be able to get it to them until a few days later, and he was like, the actors are in such a good position right now mentally and in there. You know they've been preparing for this all day. If we break and have them make them have to come back and try and get in that headspace again a few days l from now, we're not going to get the same performance that I

know we can get today. And so he didn't want to tell them about this issue because he was like, we can do it one more time. We have to do this one more time, and we'll just give it that. He decided not to tell the actors that this was like do or die because he didn't want that on their minds and on their shoulders because it would inevitably probably make them mess up. And so he's like, Okay, guys, we're just gonna do this once one more time. Do not stop unless you hear cut. You don't hear cut,

Keep going, I don't care what happens. Keep going. And within like the first couple of minutes of filming this scene, I think it's the dad is writing a letter or something and a ghost makes a noise in the background or something makes a noise in the background, and the actor missed his line. And he couldn't remember it. And in the scene he turns around and it's like he's looking because he heard a noise, but it's actually because he was looking at Mike Flanagan and was like, why

aren't we cutting? I missed my line? And they were like, just keep going, just keep going, And so he turns back and keeps going and everyone was confused. The actors were like, we have made so many mistakes, why aren't they cutting that they were in this like pumped up adrenaline stage that made the fight so much better, like ten times better, Mike Clanigan said, than any other take they'd had of it, any other rehearsal they'd had of it. It was just the confusion kind of about was like,

what's going on? Why aren't we cutting? Made them like really anxious, but in a good way, like in a way that brought out kind of the anxiety they needed to show in that scene to make it as as productive and good as it was.

His family, you know, is South Asian and has Muslim roots but were not necessarily Muslim, and he was an atheist from an early age, but he had a best friend who was Muslim, and so it's just trying to get into Hassan's character, the Sheriff, Asan is his character. He would contact his friend and say, like, when you were like, you know, a kid, what did you want

to see from a Muslim hero, a Muslim superhero? And apparently when he like casually mentioned that he's having these conversations to Mike Flanagan, Flannagan was like, all right, well where is he. Let's get him a plane ticket and fly him here. And the guy was hired to be a consultant on the show. And I just love that

in terms of how your work amentation works. But the two characters that I know him most of one is this very kind of like staid, moral upstanding, you know, praise to Mecca five times a day, like Uphold doesn't drink, doesn't do the things that Muslims aren't supposed to do. Is he understands it character and he plays the part brilliantly.

And then I see fall the House of Ussher and I'm watching this guy who looks a little bit familiar, who's playing basically like in internet personality, and I think he's a is he a video game creator or a djit Like he's some kind of like he has a video game guy who's just is like he's living in a relationship with a man. He is having sex with women as well as men, Like he's openly by he's you know, kind of in an open relationship but not a very consensual one. But he's doing drugs all the time.

He's sleeping with all these people. And I was like, I know that actor, where is that from? And then when Mary was like, oh, yes, they guy to play Sheriff Hassan, I was like no, because it's just And I think one thing a lot of people will do is they will like actors get typecast and especially by the same writers. And for Flanning him to be like, cool, you did such a great job for me playing that part.

I think. But yeah, I think that's what I love for Rahu COOLi is because he's such an amazing actor and in I don't want to say in Mike Clannigan's hands, but under Mike Clannigan's direction and trust, you really see everything that he's capable of. And it makes me kind of sad that not all direct that you know, not all directors are like that, but also that Hollywood in general is not as accommodating for that, I think, because what else could we who else could we see kind

of flourish in this way? And I don't know, I think it's kind of telling that, you know, our who Couleia only really has gotten those roles from Mike Flanagan, And I think it's a shame because I think he should be insignificantly more than he is.

ended up losing the weight. If I'm going to represent us, let's look good, let's be brown hair, rush and forward and scowl and look off the distance and do all the hero shots. That's what I wanted to represent with his character. And I just love that thinking and also that my plannagains that will be like cool, Okay, yeah, lose the way that that makes.

Swusher is my favorite post story, the Black Cat, which for Star Wars fans Star Wars Higher Public fans. Justina Ireland co wrote the Black Cat and episode. But yeah, read that. I highly reckon in reading that because it's a wild, wild story.

We're also just this like strong confident person in a very a situation that is entirely designed to make him feel off balanced, and yet he's just able to work with it.

a woman played by Tania Miller, and the folk. The episode that focuses on them is.

They're like, okay, like we're gonna have this budding romance and then like the moment she realizes she's already dead and can't be with them, and like the way that they film that and do like a cut I think from talking to him and then to the moment and realizing she's she's already dead is just like one of the most devastating scenes of television that I've watched, Like, oh.

We will not be discussing how many laughs per minut it you need to be to qualify to.