Hello, Look, I read this episode of Superhero Ethics today. We're discussing the topic of what does it mean to learn from failure? And we're using that particularly through the lens of the movie The Last Jedi. But we're gonna be talking about this topic in all of Star Wars as well as you know, all of media and in our own lives. And we think it's a really interesting element of that particular movie, one that Ricky and I are both big fans of, and so we want to use it for that regard.
I do want to say as a note here, because I know this movie is particularly controversial, this is not a time to review The Last Jedi. Rieky and I are fans of it, are going to talk about what we enjoy about it. I know a lot of people aren't fans about it. That's totally fine. Please. I think it's totally fine of any opinting on
this movie. I think a lot of people say it. At any time that someone mentions The Last Jedi or anything about it, it's a time to bring mac all the arguments everyone's heard of before about why it's too woke, or it's do this or do that, or any of that. Stuff, please take out somewhere else. So we want to a discussion about the specific question of learning from failure. As I said, I'm here with my guest Ricky, and Ricky, I know this is one of your favorite movies as
well. What does this idea of learning from failure mean to you? Not even in the movie itself, but just in general. Well, I was going to start out and just say, I'll give you my review. It's my favorite Star Wars movie. That's fair. That's fair, And I wanted to start here like I just want to quote Yoda. This is the scene where ghost Yoda comes to Luke. He says, he did my words,
not did you all right? Pass on what you have learned? Rank mastery mm hm, but weakness, folly, failure, also, yes, failure most of all the greatest teacher fail is And then like there's a cut, and later on he says, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters, right, And that's the basis of our
discussion here. And it's a it's such a Yoda thing. And to me, like Yoda is the walking embodiment of an airport book that condenses like this, this life philosophy and advice into one phrase like a title phrase, and it's it can be useful if you apply it properly, but if you examine it from a broad perspective, it it doesn't work. Like a lot of these things, like you have to internalize the message and then find out what
it means for yourself. So I do think like there are nuggets of great wisdom in this, like in some airport books, but you have to be careful about how you apply that to your life. Yeah, I think it's very true. Failure like being the greatest teacher. Failure sucks, yeah, and it can lead you down a spiral of I mean, frankly like depression, Like if you keep failing at things, that's that's not like that's not a good teacher, as you always say. Well, I think that's really
essential to this idea. And I actually appreciate I use that phrase learning from failure, but but I appreciate the way you're specifying it is that failure the greatest teacher is because you can have the best teacher in the world and if you don't listen, you're not going to learn anything. And to me, I think that's one of the keys is you can learn from failure, but
you have to that isn't just going to hit you over the head. You have to be willing to first of all, acknowledge your failures and look at your failures. And you have to be willing to be critical and not just say, oh, this is someone else's fault or if this had happened that I wouldn't have failed, but be willing to say, what did I do wrong? How did I fail? And what can I learn from this so that I don't do this again? Because you're right, when you're just stuck
in that cycle of failure, it feels terrible for you. Often you can wind up hurting others. Like that's not a good thing. Yeah, I mean, if we're talking about you know, like a context of a job performance, if you keep failing, like you might be learning stuff, but you also might get fired because you're just not doing your job correctly. Right, So there there's a I mean, to use another catchy phrase, like in the context of a job, they say, if you're good at your
job, you keep getting promoted until you're bad at your job. Right, So that's like the point of failure. Ideally, like maybe you stop just before that because you recognize like you kind of reached a good balance point, but like you can't like success is also success is also a good teacher to
some degree. So I do find it interesting because in that moment in this movie, Luke has expressed like he failed because Ray has just left where he like fails as a teacher, and he is recalling how he failed with Ben Skywalker or Ben Solo Kylo Renn, right, So he he is stuck in this kind of loop of depression where I've failed twice and now like I created Kylo ren and now Ray is going off to try to talk to him,
and she's going to turn to the dark side. So he's stuck in this loop and and Yoda is trying to bring him out of that and show Luke that he has not yet failed with Ray, like he has taught her some lessons, but it's time to let her make her own decisions about right. Yeah, I think that the timing of what Yoda says there is so important, feel because of everything you said, but also because and he's alreadys starting
to get into this wider question. There are patterns of failure that are repeating all throughout this To me, I think one of the like Luke's failure with Ben, I think is very intentionally meant to mirror Obi Wan's failure with Anakin. And that's a much deeper subject. And obviously Anakin was you know, very empowered in his own choices and all kinds of stuff. But certainly, I mean obi Wan himself said, you know, I thought I could teach
this person as well as Yoda did. I was wrong. And I also think though that part of what Yoda is saying here is that because part of what Lucas said in responses, you know, and being critical of the Jedi, as he said, you know, the Jedi utterly failed to see that Sidius was rising to failed to prevent you know, Anakin from falling and all that. And I think when Yoda says this, he's not just saying you need to learn from your failure. He's saying, Luke, you need to
learn from mine. Because what he's saying is that, like, because Luke and Ray have to rebuild the Jedi, and really Ray will have to rebuild the Jedi. And I think for me, part of why that line is so powerful is because it is Yoda saying, don't don't just follow the Jedi texts exactly. Don't try to do things exactly how You're right, Luke, we the Jedi of the prequel era failed. You have to learn not just
from your failure but from hours and see how to best go forward. Oh boy, Okay, I don't I don't know that Yoda would admit that he failed. No, No, I don't know if he's saying that. I think we agree. I think that the Jedi Council failed right in terms of the conflict with the Sith and letting cities take control, and we we could talk about that. But Zyoda admitting that he failed, I don't know about
that. Interesting. Yeah, well, listeners, let us know what you think, because yeah, to me, that's very much what it's about. I think, in particularly because of it's coming So I think in particularly because all that Lucas said about because what he critiques that the Jedi of that time. He doesn't say you did this, but he very much. You know, Yoda was one of the leaders of that that as with Mace Windu as
was everyone else. And I do want to just also interject here just because I think this is another thing that internet debate can get real, can go really far in bad directions on I do not think that the failure of the Jedi. I put this differently, I do not think that the fall of the Republic, the fall of the Jedi, or the fall of Anakin. For me, none of those. The conversation of blame and failure is not
zero sum. I think a lot of people try to get into an argument of, oh, it wasn't Anakin's fault at all, because the Jedi fit failed, or because it was all Palpatine, so it's no one else's fault. I'm not trying to say who has more fault or less fault. I think in the end most rests with Anakin himself, at least in that particular
department, and it was Citius himself. But I think we can still say that, like, you know, without making it about one more than the other, that the Jedi failed in terms of how they didn't see Citious coming, they didn't see the fault of the Republic and the Jedi and the Anakin coming. I actually put a lot more blame on the Jedi Council and probably specifically Yoda. Like I the show The Acolyte is about to come out, and I feel my gut is that this is going to show us that Yoda
is much more at fault than previously shown to be. There find it hard to believe that we reach a point in the Phantom Menace right where they say the Sith have been extinct for a thousand and years and Yoda has been alive for most of that, and the scenes of stuff, and we'll probably see some things in the Acolyte question mark and he I think in that scene he gives Mace a look. Yeah, it's always been a question like, well,
what does that look mean. I think the new interpretation of Star Wars is going to be that they knew and they were hiding stuff from the rest of the council. Interesting. Interesting, I've always thought that it's the other way that because of their belief and you know, in the High Republic books going to this somewhat, you know, kind of the the Jedi just don't
believe it's possible, and so they might see signs but they don't. It's not that they know the Sith are out there, it's that they see these signs and they don't. They're like, oh no, that can't be the Seth. But you're right. The Acolite can answer a lot of those questions. And I guess, yeah, it's not that I'm saying it's not that I'm saying that my application of where the blame falls is different than yours. It's just that I think that for me, trying to debate is it sixty
doesn't really get us anywhere. I just but I do think that you're absolutely right that there were multiple failures there by the Jedi. And it's interesting that like in this quote, like previous to the failure stuff Yoda talks about, right, he says strength mastery, but weakness folly. So what he is expressing is that a master a teacher should not try to appear infallible. To this, yes, there might have to show that they themselves are fallible because
that allows the student to potentially fail and to be okay with that. It's like, oh, my master can't do everything, so it's okay that I can't do everything yet, like I still have a lot to learn. And that to me like contradation how Yoda acts pretty much through everything, right, like growing weakness folly, Like even beyond the stuff that I am expressing about what I think will happen with the acolyte already, like Yoda has that scene
with Mace. I think maybe an attack of the clones where they're like, we have to keep hiding the fact that we're losing our connection with the force from the Senate, right, so they're hiding their weakness, and that contradicts
what he's saying here. I mean, go ahead, go ahead, I guess I agree with all that, but I think that's part of why he's saying this now because first, just on this concept when I was in grad school, so I need a pastor, This was one of my teachers really love to use the phrase the wounded healer, you know, and that as a pastor, as any kind of leader, you need to be willing to
talk about your own mistakes. You need to be able to talk about out as parts of the people can see, like, yes, I stumbled the same way you're going to stumble, and I want to show you how I got back up again. His point being that if you've never stumbled, then someone who does stumble is never going to think that you can relate to them. And I think I've heard you say similar things when you were one of
my mentors as a magic judge. I know when I, you know, talk to you about a way that I'd screwed up, you would often say yeah, no, I get it, and and mention some of your own failures. And certainly that was something that many of my mentors, imagine the
gathering judging, have done. So, yeah, so I want to get to the other part, but you want to kind of further emphasize that idea that I that I do think that a teacher not only should, but has to do that kind of thing because or else either setting an impossible standard and b the student is now going to think that if they do screw up, if they do fail, that they shouldn't talk to the master about it. Well, yeah, like, what is it? I lost that thought anyway.
That's fair. Well, so let's talk about the Yoda contradicting himself, because yeah, I agree, I do agree with you there, I think that I don't I don't get from Yoda the regret. I agree that there are some subtexts that he is expressing that he failed. I just wish that he in the scene would have just like come out and said so, yeah,
I agree with that. And even in like the Empire, Empire strikes back interactions with Yoda, like they talk about he and obi Wan talk about how they failed with Anakin with Vader, but I don't know, it just doesn't seem like they are necessarily taking responsibility for it. I mean, is that one more of their failures that Luke has to learn from, whether they
say it or not. I mean, and that it might not be that that's what Yoda's saying, but that Luke certainly has to because we do get that great moment where in Empire, No, it's a return of the Jedi, where you know, Luke confronts forced ghost obi Wan about what happened to his father, and you know, obi Wan does the well, what I told you is true from a certain point of view, which I've always thought
as a cop out. What we also to say is that, as I mentioned before, that he thought he could train and again the way that Yoda had trained him, which we've kind of redcon somewhat, but will move me on that. But he admits he was wrong, and to me, I think that that is I think obi Wan failed as a teacher early on because
he wasn't willing to admit that failure. He wanted he didn't want Luke to realize that Darth Vader becoming Darth Vader wasn't part his fault in part again and I want to, you know, start the debate, but who is it more or so? But to me, that is an element of obi Wan at least acknowledging his failure and Luke being able to see that. Yeah, there are certainly parallels with obi Wan's failure with Anakin and Luke's failure with Ben.
I think what we're missing is maybe some context of what the heck Snoke is, right, Yeah, because Luke mentions in the flashback, the Rascal Moun style flashbacks that like Snoke had already gotten his tendrils into Ben, and like we know so little about Snoke, like what he is, like what his powers are. They were like, oh okay, but we ended up not understanding what that means, like compared to how Palpatine got his tendrils into
Anakin. Right, the opera scene being so integral, like missing that it's hard to contextualize like how close these two analogies are. Yeah, I think it's fair. I don't think that it's a direct one for one analogy by any means, but I think there's some connection there. Let's talk about the role of this idea in the movie itself, because for me, this is kind of a mission statement of the movie, because it's not Luke's failure with
Ben that's the only failure. Where else do you think this idea comes out in the movie? I mean, for me, like number one is Poe Dammoring, right, I Poe's story in The Last Jedi is probably my favorite one. And I've made the comparison that, you know, the hero's journey of Luke Skywalker the archetype in New Hope. I think Poe goes through what I've called the leader's journey, where he starts off as this hot shot pilot
who doesn't understand how to be a leader. And in the opening scene of this movie, he fails, like he destroys the Dreadnought, but that loses all all the bombers, and General Argana chastises him for it. Right, He's like, but we destroyed the Dreadnought, so again, like he's not understanding even that he failed in that moment. Yes, it's a failure to see the larger context and to trust that other people see the larger context.
Yeah, I think you're right, and I think It's a very interesting thing because I think to some extent he repeats the same mistake because in that first thing, he sees a problem the dreadnought, and he believes that there's a way for him to fix this problem, and his superiors are specifically telling him not to do this, but he goes ahead anyway. Then, in the second half of the movie, when Admiral Holdo is telling him that there is a plan that he just has to trust and believe, once again he fails
because he doesn't see the context. He doesn't see uh, you know, and he doesn't trust that someone else, she's the contact that he doesn't So he takes fin on this whole canto byte mission, which winds up in the end not only failing but pausing great harm because it leads the the the not the Empire the first order to learn about you know, Holdo's plan and have
a lot of those things get destroyed. Yeah, And so is that an example do you think of where he doesn't learn from, where failure wasn't a teacher for him, or where he just failed to learn from the teacher the Holdo example, I mean, by the end of the movie, he does learn right, right, he understands like what Luke is doing and that they they should try to escape right versus trying to fight the walkers outside of the outside of the base. So I don't know about the hold of things,
like the whole out thing. Like people are always like, oh, like Holdo should have told it, and I'm like, no, like hoh should have followed the chain of command, followed his orders well, which is also what he didn't do with the Dreadnaught. Yeah, I can't remember if he got specific orders. I thought Leah specifically tells him not to do this,
but maybe he's misremembering. Yeah, but no, certainly, I think he has a great journey and I you and I talked about a later book the name Whi's Now Escaping Me, But it's about Poe after this moment where I think he really does acknowledge that he he he did learn and I think it's that difference of that. And I hate this because it's like, hopefully you shouldn't need this, But I feel like he got to see the cost of
his failure. Win Holdill finally explain to him, you know, all that had happened, and well, but then he saw the cost of his failure earlier, so it's it's frustrating, I think, but I think is in some way very real that he had had he had to fail twice to learn this, and that doesn't make it good and things were a lot better if he didn't. But he does learn when he's willing to listen to that teacher. Yeah. I can't remember the name of the book either, Uh,
Resistance. I think Resistance Rising, but I'll look it up while you talk. I think it was a Resistance Reborn r are. Yeah. Yeah, I mean in this movie, like Poe definitely learns from failure, does Finn. I don't think Finn learns. Unfortunately, Finn gets such a raw deal in these movies, as he really does so much potential, it just keeps sidelining him or just like having him be like too stubborn for for the context of the moment. Mm hmm. I wish that Finn had a bigger learning
moment. Yeah, which is sure that I I I definitely feel like one of the biggest failures of that movie and of the third movie is, as you say, the sidelining of that character. And while I would love for Finn to come back for the new movies, they're making. I know, John Boyega the actor, is very upset about how he was treated, and I like, I love to see the character back, but I also very much understand if he doesn't want to come back, what about give it some
time? I would say, yeah, that's true, just like because I agree, like as a human being, his reaction to this whole thing is
like, why would I want to go back to this? Yeah, but we've seen, like in Star Wars, like in any fandom, but in Star Wars fandom, how an initial like negative reaction to something over time, like time heals wounds and the fandom has come around, or the fantom has you know, just aged and mature in a way that allows us to revisit things like the Obi Wan Kenobi show and specifically hate and Christensen coming back to
Star Wars when he was at the time like fairly maligned. Yeah, does Kylo rend learn something in this movie or his failure teacher for him, either before this movie or now he learns to walk around without a shirt on? I don't know. I just had to get that in because that scene always
crows me up. No, it's it's very true. It's very true, and like look after the monster at the end of Attack of the Clones rips padme shirt in an incredibly coincidental way that just happens to expose Natalie Portman's midriff. I feel like, you know, having some some eye candy. On the other direction, there's nothing wrong with that either, I think. I think this is the movie where he starts to he learns to let go of
Vader, which is then kind of undone by the last movie. But I well, although it feels like he he starts to learn, you know, when he's willing to turn on Snoke to me, is a lot about being willing to you know. It's funny because Poe's failure was to not listen to his superiors. I think Kylo's is that he does listen too much in to both what Snoke has been saying to him and to you know, whatever else has been saying to him. And he's willing to turn on Snoke and recognize
that Snoke is not the master he needs. But then he can't go far enough. He can't learn the lesson that Ray wants him to learn of.
Not only are you you know, you're still on the dark side, You're still doing all these terrible things, and I think, and again people heard me rant about the problems of the last movie, and I won't go into that again, but I do think that it is one of my disappointments of the last movie that I feel like there was a real path of learning Kylo could have gone on from this moment that instead they just took him in the
direction they took him. And he does learn some things by the end because the magical power of kissing Ray. But again that's a whole other discussion. But do you think there's some element to which he does partially learn in the
way his attitude towards Snow changes. That's I think that's a symptom or maybe like a result, but the real Like so Kylo RN's failure in the context as this trilogy is like killing Han Solo, like killing his father, is his point of failure right where he makes a turn, and I think the point that he learns and comes back from that, at least in this movie. Obviously, like in the last movie, he has a bigger moment.
But in this movie, like a he doesn't kill Leah, his mother m right when he's in the fighter and has a bead on her the bridge of her ship. It ends up being one of his wingmen that fires the shot,
so he stops himself there. But more importantly, like reaching out to Ray using the connection, the diad connection with Ray and literally touching, touching hands right in that moment, is him exposing himself like and if we're talking about in the context of the Yoda quotes, like showing weakness or vulnerability is a better term in that moment, right taking off the glove again like that you mentioned letting go of Vader. He is it this movie where he like
literally beats up his own mask. I believe it is. Yeah, he certainly takes off the mask for a lot of the movie, and then in the scene with Ray takes off his glove as well in order to touch hands with her. Right, So reconnecting like literally connecting like right on the nose, but showing vulnerability and a willingness to reach out to someone and share this
bond is important. No, I think that's true, And I think in a way, as I think about it more, I realized I think both the scene where where Ray and Ben both try to convince each other to join their side, I think you can see as a failure for both of them because Kylo wants to convince Ray to know on the dark side and she wants to convince Ray to step away from it, and or she wants to convince him to step away from it. And I think it's a really interesting question
of how do they both learn from that? And because I think it's very intentional, right, Like, I think a lot of the complaints people get about this movie is that, oh, everybody fails, so what's the point? And I think that to me, everything, it feels like every failure in this movie is very intentional because of how it reflects to this vision statement and that I'm not really sure how much Kylo and Ray learned from their failure in that moment, but I think certainly what Ryan was trying to set up
was that in the third movie it would address that. And you know, we pretty excide my feelings about it. We get a later date talk about like, do we think that each of them learns in the third movie? But I certainly think that that well, but I certainly think that the scene was supposed to be have both of them failing. Yeah, yeah, they do kind of come together in Rise of Skywalker obviously, right, not in the way that this movie seems to be suggesting. Well, again I objecting.
I was trying to put that part of the discuss off for another point. I just want to talk about it in this one. And Yeah, Like, the problem with Kylo Wren, even like through Yea, even throughout the Rise of Skywalker, is that he no, I mean, he does end up being more vulnerable. I think that's the point, right, is, like he shows his vulnerability to Ray at least, right, and that that is the lesson that we're trying to learn from this moment or from this
quote. Right, Well, certainly he fails catastrophically when it comes to the final scene on the Salt Moon. And so here's a question I have for you that actually I'm not sure about either. Yoda has reminded Luke that failure is the greatest teacher. Luke feels, I think rightly so that he failed Ben So as his master, Luke is obviously trying to help make sure the
Resistance escapes. I think that's that is very important. But do you think he's also trying to help to give Kylo w Ren a failure that he can learn from. Either way, he confronts him at the end of the movie. I'd never got that impression. For me, that scene is mostly about helping the Resistance escape and imparting the future to ray right, because the final
part of the quote is the we are what they grow beyond. And he says like I will not be the last Jedi, like he is passing on the mantle mm hmm, and saying like my moment has passed, like it's it's not my time anymore. Yes, it's it's raised time. I think all of that is true and maybe again, and like, because I love this mission staatement so much, I want to read it into everything. So jan fans tell me if you strongly disagree, I think that those are all
his primary goals. But I do think that to me, part of Kylo Wren's failure, part of his problem, like a lot of the Dark Side is you know what Luke said to Palpatine back in Return of the Jedi, that his overconfidence is his failure and that he is belief in his own power
is his failure. And I think that's a big part of what happens in this movie is that Luke Luke is because it's not the he defeats him it's that he he shows that he can trick him, that all these powers that he has, all this machinery, you can fire all these weapons and it won't matter because we can still find a way to get around you. So yeah, to me, to me, there's an interesting lesson there, and
I think we can talk talk about, you know, what happens. But I totally get that I may just be projecting like crazy here, that's fair too, project away. Yeah. The last thing, big question I wanted to bring up is do you think this is a new idea in Star Wars? How have we seen people learning from failure at other points in the Star Wars movies. Well, you got to go back to Empire strikes Back because that's the original Yoda loop interaction, and actually, like there's actually a section
of the training where failure is important. Well, there's a couple like you failed a lot in his training. Yep, he fails in the dark Side Cave because he takes he doesn't listen to Yoda and takes a weapon with him and uses it, and then he fails to lift the x Wing. Just one thing, just one thing, just one thing on that first one.
I think also kind of similar to Poe, he believes that he has defeated his enemy, like he has a fight with Darth Vader and he wins, and it's only when he sees his own face and comes to realize the point of it. So, yeah, I think that that's a very important I don't want to add that as more contact for that, sorry, go on to the second one that we keep discussing them all. Well, yeah, when he's lifting the x wing specifically, like Yoda uses the word failure.
There, he doesn't lift the x wing, Yoda does. Luke says, I don't believe it, and Yoda says, that is why you fail. Right, And there's also before that, obviously, like he doesn't use the word failure. But the most famous Yoda quote, right, do or do not there is no try? Is interesting to me in the context of this discussion because do or do not can be translated into this context as succeed or fail, but there is no try. It would be like don't half asset.
Oh, he's interesting because I took that in a very different way because to me, and maybe this is again where I also see what Yoda says differently. I always took do or do not as and this is why I don't love the phrase as kind of basically saying like, if you really want to do this, you will do this and you won't fail. And the idea that you will try but you most might fail, Yoda is saying,
I don't think that's possible. And to me, that's also why. And I think there's later scenes in Rebels where Canaan kind of disagrees with that, and the Yoda he's talking to kind of agrees with him. And so for me, taking those things, both of those things in mind, and again I wish that Yoda is more explicit. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but to me, him saying failure is the greatest teacher. You don't
fail unless you try. Like that, that feels to me like him acknowledging that that saying do or do not or there's no try is a stupid thing to say. Yeah, I mean that's you have to try. Like I said, these are like airport books. Yeah, exactly. It's a snappy phrase, but you have to apply the lesson to yourself, to your own life, right, So what I'm suggesting with do or do not is right,
Like because he says do or do not? There is no try to do in some context, you have to try right and then you do well or sometimes you don't right like the do not part right like. I think what we're saying that the different interpretations are do not as in Luke doesn't even attempt to lift the x wing, or do not as he attempts to lift
the x wing but fails. I guess the way that I see it is that it's the mentality that what with Yoda's saying is, if you tell yourself I am going to move this X wing without any thought that you might fail, then you'll do it because you are so confident in your power that you will have the power. But then if you tell yourself, I'm going to try to live this X wing and I don't know if I can, and I might fail, but I'm going to give it my best shot, Yoda
is saying that then you will fail. You have to completely believe you will succeed in order to succeed, and I don't. I simply don't think that's true, and I think that's an unhelpful philosophy. And to me, I agree, and to me, I think that that's where the because the flip side of that is you should try and if you fail, learn from your Like, failure can be a good thing, and you have to fail in
order to learn how to not fail. Yeah, I mean I was thinking about I was thinking about this topic while I was on while I was jogging, and in the context of exercise and training, whether whether it's you know, like endurance training or like say weightlifting, you have to try, right, Like if you're bench pressing, you're like, I don't know if I can bench press I don't know two hundred pounds, let's say, I don't know if that's good or bad. Yeah, but just pick a weight you
don't know if you can do it. You have to try, right, and if you can do it, great, then you up the weight. At some point you can't, right, and you you quote unquote fail, but you you've learned a limit. And like that's what exercise is. Like, training your muscles is about finding that failure point, reaching that point and then you literally like break the you know, tendon of your muscles and then
they regrow stronger. Right, Like That's that's what exercise is. And and so like for me, like that's how I contextualize this part of it. Do or do not is like, you know, just just do it, Nike, just do it and then if you fail, okay, like figure figure it out or like try again the next day. Then when you're a little bit stronger. Yeah, I think that's when I the force is weird. Like I don't know how the force of that one. No one knows how the force works. They just make it up like per movie or TV
show, But it feels like it. It is probably like a muscle that there's kind of like a learned or trained element to it that if you use it, you continue to get stronger up to a certain degree, right, Like Obi Wan Kenobi showed that in the TV show where he hadn't used the force for ten years or something, and you'd be sucked at it at the
beginning of that show. Every time we've seen they're struggling to you know, first learn how to lift something, or you know, every lightsaber training scene, the padawan is losing to the master, they're failing at defeating the master. I do agree in the context of like when Empire Strikes Back first came out that the quote do or do not as an element of because Luke is like I can't like I don't know if I can do it, I'll try,
like because it's he's lifted rocks. But it's like that's so big, like an X wing, and the audience is in the same boat because we have not really seen the force used in this context, right with something as large as an X wing, So like, can you do that with the force? It's like, I don't know, and Yoda is saying, like, you just gotta do it. You can eventually, but you just gotta
do it. Yeah, no, not today, But I think there'll be an ancient conversation to have about how does Yoda's concept of do or do not there's no try compare with the Matrix's idea of there is no spoon angret that that's a whole other thing that's virtual reality. Which interesting thought occurred to me as we're talking about this. Let's kind of start wrapping up what do you
no? It's out there. There's one other instance where I think that there's a couple of instances I think where characters fail either do or don't learn in them. I talked about before about Obi Wan saying saying that he acknowledging he failed with Anakin. Do you think Luke failed when he went to best Bin
to try and rescue his friends. Did Luke fail. I mean, let's see, yes, Like from a plot perspective, he failed because he didn't say, well, they were already rescuing themselves, right, so he didn't say he didn't save them and certainly didn't save Han right or at that point in the movie hand mm hmm. Although there is a question of if he doesn't go, would Vader have been more like, if they if anyone was to waiting for Luke and they do indication Luke was going, would Vader have
been able to stop them getting away? Oh, it's like he was a distraction. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I've always thought this is an interesting question because his hand is chopped. He loses the fight to Vader, absolutely, but he definitely fails in that regard. Yeah, but remember Vader isn't trying to kill him. Vader's trying to turn him to the dark side. Luke succeeds in not turning to the dark side, and Luke succeeds in
getting away. I gint it needs a lot of help for that. But you know, Vader isn't able to either capture him or turn him to the dark side. So I've always looks very interesting because I always again in this question of like how much are Yoda and obi Wan right or wrong? I think that in the end they are, like because if he doesn't go, I think it's much more likely that they all wind up captured and maybe even killed. And so I guess I've always seen it as obi Wan and Yoda
are somewhat wrong to tell him not to go. Oh they're well, they're very wrong, yeah, because they are still hiding the relationship the fact that Vader is Luke's father, right, and they're training Luke, they're training Luke to be a weapon, right, and saying you have to kill Vader,
and ultimately that's not what happens. Luke Brant defeats Vader in the duel in Return of the Jedi, but it's his compassion and his connection and that ultimately turns Vader back to Anakin and he helps him to temporarily defeat Sidious Palpatine. Yeah. So I yeah, I absolutely think like obi Wan and Yoda were wrong to like hide that from Luke and to basically like try to trick him
into killing his own father without even knowing it. And I think like the whole the original trilogy is showing that they were wrong and that Luke's connection with his father is ultimately what wins everything right. And I guess that's why for me, Yoda's statement feels very self confessional, because I've always seen it that part of why Yoda and Ben are so hesitant is that, like, because Luke is trying to do the exact thing that both of them tried to do
and failed. Ben tried to bring Vader back based on the love they had for each other as brothers. He couldn't do it. Yoda tried to defeat a Sith master in Palpatine and couldn't do it as well as all of you, you know. And that because to me, I think, to some extent, the that scene on Dagoba is both of them not letting, not
not be willing to acknowledge that Luke is going to grow beyond them. And and so for me, when when Yoda says they are behind, he's saying Ray is going to grow beyond you the same way you grew beyond me. Yeah, Okay, I think I can. I think I can get behind that. I just wish, you know, we don't need everything to be as explicit as you mentioned the matrix before, and I just the scene where Trinity is like, no, Neo, you can't die because the Oracle said
that I would fall in love with a one I love you. It's like like at least one stage too far. I needed like another stage of Yoda saying you gotta let Ray try. I don't know, Yeah, yeah, no, I think you're right. I think I'm head cannoning like crazy here and I think, like, I think you're right. Sometimes it goes too far, and I think Ryan left it a little understated. It doesn't it
doesn't need to be. Look at how we didn't let you talk to Vader and then like ultimately because you talked to him, that's what turned the tide and got him to turn back to the light side. Doesn't have to go that far. But I think it's like, yeah, like, give give Ray a chance, like to do it her way. Yeah, and it's it's I agree, like looking at it now, that is what it's implying. I just needed to be stage two. Yeah, I hear that, And yeah, I wish that have been in this movie, which had been
the next movie. You know, but we have we have all right, They have the last comments you want to make on this we move into a member section. We're going to talk little more about Last Jedi and just some of the other things we loved about it, I guess, but let me actually ask you this, then, what do you see as the value because I think it is again one of the things that's most debated, but I think it is part of this mission. This whole idea. What is the
importance of the Canto Byte scene and that whole plotline. I have no idea Anto Bite. There's a whole book. I have to I have to read that book because I can't believe like they would make a whole book about Canto Byte. But it's I don't know. Maybe the point of Canto Byte is it's the failure of this movie and then it gives us like a whole other planet and whole scene. I understand, like where it's supposed to fit, but it doesn't fit that well in this movie, and it just feels like
they needed to fill time. M hm. So I've never I enjoy Canto Bite, but I never I feel like it's never really earned its keep. That's fair. I think that it does have a point in that I think like I was saying before, I think it's that Poe hasn't fully learned his lesson and has to have it drilled in even further. But given how disastrously the Dreadnought thing goes, I do, I do, Maybe I'm not sure
it's needed. Like I think I know exactly what Ryan Johnson was doing with it, and I think he does that well in that it is this other existence of failure and particular Poe to some extent repeating his failure. And I'm so it's a lot more about Finn. Well, but Poe is the one who doesn't trust Hole though, and thus comes up with this idea that him and Finn should go off on this mission together. Yeah, I just and I agree with you that it probably would have worked a lot better if Finn
had had some important lesson that he learns as part of it. But he then, according to the movie, fails again, you know, with him trying to wreck the star destroyer power cannon on the ground thing that he does. Well, it's so weird because then like they fail to find they failed to connect with the Master splicer right in the casino, and then just luck into what's his name? DJ? Yeah, who was like almost master splicer
or like splicer enough. And I think the problem I have with that whole section is that it doesn't seem like they have agency because of that, because they just kind of like fall into DJ or he falls into their that it's like, oh, well, he's good enough, right, like let's go, And so I never quite got behind that part of it. I think that's maybe that's the point, because that that does ultimately lead to them getting
caught because DJ betrays them. I mean, on some level, I think you could look at it as the kind of picard lesson that that's quote on so many memes of sometimes you can do everything right and still fail, which I think is another idea, but it's they don't do everything, they don't do anything. They just they kind of keep failing and like, oh well, this is good enough. It just I've spent so much time defending this
movie that I want to defend it here. But I think I think at the level you're right, yeah, I think that Can't Bite is the weakest part of the movie in my opinion, because of this like falling into DJ just because it fits into this whole like they didn't know what to do with Finn. It it just feels like they sent them to Canto Bite because they needed him to be on screen more. I would love to see what the original script was like, because, you know, and to wonder how what
was there originally something more for Finn in it? You know, any of this stuff, because I think you're right, And I think, because where I keep kind of getting stuck is should Finn have learned the lesson just from what happened with the Dreadnaught? And I do think there's something important about the idea that if your heroes always learn the lesson from failure, I don't think
that's accurate. I do think a lot of times people explain away, or they use excuses, or they try to, you know, not acknowledge themselves how much the failure was their fault, and that they have to listen to that, you know, the whole, like you're not listening to the teacher idea. And so I feel like it is important that Poe doesn't just learn the lesson from what Leah tells him. He has to fail again. But I agree, I don't think it's well executed. But like in them,
like po has a good arc. Yeah, in this movie I think we can agree on that. The problem I have is like Finn doesn't have a a good arc or anything. I don't know, like it's I justice, justice for Finn. Yeah, agreed, and I we did an episode a long time ago about it. There's a animated special where it's an animated movie that's like, you know, the Star Wars Summer Adventure or something like that, and it's it's mostly silly, but in it, obi Wan like forced
ghost. Obi Wan specifically goes up to Fan and I was like, you're supposed to be a Jedi. Why aren't you a Jedi yet? I'm going to help teach you how to be a Jedi. Yeah, no, it's it's really and I feel like it's like Star Wars first starting to acknowledge we screwed up. Finn should have been a Jedi. And again it was in this very like low stakes thing. We did an episode about it. I
think it is it's either lego or just plain animation. But I will find it and show the I will share the link to both the movie itself and also our discussion of it. But yeah, I think that's uh. If there's a failure of Ryan Johnson and of Lucasfilm and of Disney, it's that
they treated Finn badly and they didn't make him a Jedi. And I hope that the the treatment of Hayden Christiansen and even more so the treatment of Ahmed Best is that, you know, I think Disney understands that Lucasfilm and and and then themselves have not treated a lot of their characters, but especially their actors of color very well. Because Rose Tran also gets completely shafted in that third movie. So Rose Tico. Sorry, the actress is named Kelly Murray
Tran. Yeah, sorry, I got the mixed up, all right, Okay, Well, I just want to comment on that, like I think, like the Star Wars franchise, Disney, like whatever you want to call it, Lucasfilm, whatever, this organization that creates Star Wars, I agree there have been like these past failures of how they did not react properly to fandom, like especially like racist hatred in the fandom. And I thought how they reacted during the Obi Wan Kenovi show to Moses all the attacks she got,
y yeah, Moses singroom actress who plays Reva. That was them learning from the past and saying we're just gonna put our foot down now, and they made public statements. Ewan McGregor put out a lovely short video about it, and I don't I don't know like if it was all done in the best way, but it was better than the past. And I think that that's the point. It's like, Okay, we acknowledge that in the past, like there were these failures, and we're going to try a little something
different, try to be better, and we're moving forward. And I I think like that's the lesson is like the overall lesson of this quote is don't get consumed by failure because it is a part of the process. Yeah, and you can acknowledge it and then analyze it and try to learn from it.
I think you're really true, that's really right. And I'm just on kind of what Disney has done because in many ways, I think that the failure that happened with John Boyega and Finn and Rose and Killy Mary Tran is that they listened too much to the fans and their anger and you know, tone down finn story and so to me when with Moses Ingram, not only did they defend her, but you know, they kind of have said, oh, you don't like that the second biggest star, maybe the third biggest
star, was a person of color. Well, guess what, here's the Alcolyte where the actual main character is played by a version of color. So which, funnily enough, it's the actress who played Rue in the Hunger Games, who also got a hell of a lot of shit because people were very upset that it was a black girl playing Rue, even though in the book they clearly state, you know that her skin is much darker than catnesses, and her curly hair and other things like that. So yeah, it's the
cycles going on and on. Anyway, we actually already talked about some other parts of Last Jedi, So for our bonus content, we're going to be talking about this idea and how we see it in kind of other media that we love or don't see it another media we love. But for anyone who wants that, of course, you know, become a member. Only five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year. All that's in the show notes. All that is if you go to the Ethicalpana dot com there also
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