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to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, myself, Matthew and my co host Riki are talking about the new Fantastic Four movie. If you've listened to our old stuff, you know this is a movie that Ricky was greatly anticipating. I was also anticipating, but from a very different perspective. Ricky is a huge Fantastic Four fan. I have had almost no contact with them, but have been curious about them.
And now it's out, and as expected, there's some interesing ethical questions that it raises, and we're here to talk about them. And Riki let me kind of just start by. We're gonna get into the questions especially, but let you kind of start the framework of as someone who is a big Fantastic Four fan, as someone who's been frustrated by earlier depictions of the four, what do you think of this movie overall?
I would say that this is a very good movie. It's a very good MCU movie, and it could I'll border on great. I don't know. I would have to rewatch it, maybe a second time or a third time to really like hone in on how I feel about it.
I was very happy with it, satisfied with the product, but it came at such an interesting time, meaning on the heels of the dc reboot with Superman m H. And because of that, like it's impossible not to compare them, right because both movie franchises, both comic book movie franchises, are going through kind of a difficult period right with their audiences and trying to refocus, and I feel like
Superman did that. It set an amazing new direction for DCU under James Gunn, And in that respect, Fantastic Four First Steps was a little disappointing. It felt like just another Marvel movie, and that again is like as a comic book movie is okay, it's it was good. It was enjoyable, fun to watch, but in this moment, I needed it to be more than just another Marvel movie, and for me, it wasn't. So that was a little disappointing.
Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it, I think, And this is a topic we're going to discussed further, possibly in a different episode. Is looking kind of where these where these franchises are, and how we feel about them, and what Superman did to me, this is better than I feel like we've been kind of in a low point of MCU products for a while, and this feels better to me. Yeah, like Thunderbolts, I think both of them were more solid entries than we've
seen in quite a while. Absolutely, But I think for me, I think the best way to describe it is I left the movie feeling very excited about the characters of the Fantastic Four, feeling like I now had a clear understanding of these people who've been so interested, who have been so important to so many others, that I was invested in these characters, that I was really excited to see these characters and other Marvel properties. But I don't think I'm in a rush to watch this movie again.
You know, because I feel like the movie itself, the main plot Galactus, left me very underwhelmed. As my partner in other podcasts, Pete Wright put it, this felt like a very good second movie when we didn't have the first movie, you know, and a lot of what I was kind of I didn't want the origin story. I was glad we didn't have that, but I wanted more. I would love to watch more of Moman. I would
have wanted to watch more of what is the Final Four? Yeah, what is the Fantastic for his relationship to the world that then having this, you know what it like for the for the world to turn against the Fantastic Four didn't mean very much to me when I hadn't seen the world more solidly on their side for a long time. Things like that.
Yeah, let me let me also go back and answer your the full question you asked. So as a fan of the Fantastic Four more in general, this was great. Yeah, and it was the best Fantastic for movie we've gotten, which is the lowest bar, just the lowest bar, but it cleared it, and it cleared it by a lot. I think it was a good movie, and it was a good depiction of the Fantastic Four and their dynamics as a family. You know, you've probably heard us talk
about them. They are Marvel's first family. When they're introduced in nineteen sixty one, they set the course for or what Marvel Comics became, and they were the centerpiece of the whole franchise, and the fact that they were a
family became integral to them. It wasn't as important in the beginning, they were just a team, but they became a family, right, and that again set the tone for so many other Marvel products to be more focused on the human elements while they're still doing ridiculous comic book superhero things right.
Like I remember when the MCU first started, one of the things that was talked about a lot was that part of why it was able to be successful was it was about characters who a lot of the public didn't have much of a knowledge of or investment of.
And that's because like the ones people thought that they did were Spider Man and the Fantastic Four, that these were all people who had long histories, and of course there had been devotees of Iron Man and Captain America and the Avengers and all that, but they were nothing as popular as Spider Man or the Fantastic Four.
Yeah, and that's because of the way that the whole the rights to the characters have been divided up right, that Sony has the rights to Spider Man and so many of the characters from that part of Marvel Universe. What Fantastic Four was Fox along with the X Men. So when Marvel Studios first started, they had to make do with what were at the time considered B listers, right for many, even like comic book fans, right.
And I will say, as someone who wasn't introduced to it but it heard you and Jessica and others talk about it, I felt like I came out this movie coming a very solid understanding of who all four of them were and a very an investment in wanting to see more of them. And I think part of that's because and here's a way in which I do think the movie was like Superman. It felt like this was a you know, we've been in the dark pathos of superheroes for a while, and I love that. I love
that this wasn't that. And this had some moments of like, you know, oh my gosh, are we gonna lose? But it did feel like it was a much more fundamentally hopeful perspective than a lot of the MCU has banned than the Zach Snyder had been, And in that right regard, it felt like it was I think I agree with you, not quite on the level of Superman, but going in a similar direction.
Yeah, a lot of people have started to talk about this month, the month of Superman and Fantastic Four is heralding the silver age of comic book movies. As I just mentioned that the Fantastic Four ushered in the Silver Age of comics like comic books, but this really feels like the industry changing direction. And of course, like two thousand and eight had Iron Man and the Dark Knight, and people now cite that as like the beginning of the golden age of comic book movie, comic book movie.
So like, if you look at it, like in five to ten years, I do think like this will be seen as an important month, an important pair of movies in moving moving things in a different direction. And you're right like that it is. Both of these movies were brightly, brightly colored and lighted, and also had much more hopeful tones than a lot of the movies we've had.
And this was something that we don't see very often in superhero movies. I don't say even especially Marvel movies. It was a movie about a superhero team where while there's conflict between them, there's never a danger of the team breaking up. You know, like think about how like almost every I think every Avengers movie hasn't sued to some degree involved people quitting the Avengers or saying that you know, they're dividing more than they literally have a
civil war. But even in both Avengers one and two, they all go their separate ways and they come back together. In The Defenders, we never we we only really get all them together for the big fight. The Eternals is very much about like their you know, internal struggles with each other until they finally come back together. This one,
they start as a team. They argue with each other some, but there's never a moment where it feels like any of them are going to leave the Final I want to keep on to the Final Four because I'm too much March Madness guy. The Fantastic Four and that alone felt like such a big deal and something I really appreciate it after being very frustrated that that movies. It felt really afraid to just let a team of heroes be a team of heroes.
Yeah, And the marketing for this movie really highlighted that, like Sunday dinner, Yeah, was such a focus, and it opens with that. It opens with the family getting together for Sunday dinner after like the weird recap montage, right.
I mean, even the concept of family itself is interesting because you know, the concept of found family, I think is often very big in a lot of superhero type things, and often that's an idea of people who have been kind of rejected by their own families, or their families are dead or something has happened and they have to turn to each other to find family. And found family is kind of in opposition to or a replacement for
blood family, and this is both. Really it is a primarily a family of you know, people who are like directly related to each other, a wife, a husband, a brother in law, the brother of the wife, and then a found family and that you know is the best friend of the of the husband that in that connection, and so I like that it's a bit of a blend, but it is much more of just like this is just an actual family with of course them having a child becoming a huge part of the story as well.
Yeah, I would say it's a it's a formed family, like for Found family. I think of The Guardians, right where they are literally forced into the situation through outside circumstances, and initially they don't want to be They don't like each other, et cetera, et cetera. Right, Like the least family member here is Ben Graham, the Thing, but he's been Read's best friend all his life, you know, depending
on the story, like from a very young age. So as adults, they're they're just this is my best friend, and to them like that is that is an important bond and it has been there since the beginning of this movie since you know, even past the four year flashback right of their mission decades probably for them at this point.
Yeah, if anyone is kind of an outsider in the family, and again they it's never thought that they might leave, but they're kind of like the odd man out. It's Johnny Storm, the brother. He's more of an odd man out I think than the Thing is.
Yeah, personality wise, sure, he's well has he left. Yeah, in the he is not a member of the four in the cartoon, but again that was for weird like legal reasons, like they thought they were gonna use him in a Spider Man cartoon, so they admitted him from the Fantastic Four and that's when Herbie the Robots was
introduced as the fourth member. Okay, the Thing has left the group from time to time, sometimes because he's cured, sometimes I think because he wants to focus on his own personal life and family, And the she Hulk has joined the Fantastic Four during those periods.
I mean, and certainly I think in a comic book run that spans decades and decades, yeah, of course it's not going to stay together. But I think that's very different than a movie where you know, Guardians, I think is the one. I don't think the Guardians never really had a full breakdown of the team. I guess they short of have, but they've been more together as a team,
I think than most MCU teams. But yeah, in terms of the on screen stuff, well, so let's shift to some of the ethical questions that come up from this, and there's a few that I want to get into that I think are gonna be into the one you wanted to talk about. You've been kind of hinting at the idea that this shows that read Richards might mister Fantastic himself might well become a villain at some point.
Talk about about that and kind of what your thoughts are on that, because I'm not quite sure I know what you meant by read Richards has some like potential for villainy in this in this one.
So do you want me to talk about the movie first or his comic book history.
Let's talk about the movie first.
Okay, So in this movie, to me, the critical scene was after their baby is born. He's talking to Franklin and he says something along the lines of I don't want you to be like me, because there's something wrong with me. Do you remember that?
Yep?
Line? And I perked up when he said that, Like what the heck? Like, what do you mean? Right?
Yeah?
Because I think as a new parent, you can probably relate to this is your child, Like you want your child to grow up like you obviously, like be better than you in a lot of ways. But part of parenting is imprinting and teaching. Yeah, and so like, why wouldn't you want your child to be like you? Like? What are you saying about yourself? Right? So that's what I was, like, what is he saying about himself? Like what is wrong with him?
Right?
And and a lot of the other elements of this movie kind of hint at this that what is fundamentally wrong with Reid is that he's too smart. M he is. He's usually cited as the smartest person on Earth or the Marvel Universe, or however you want to classify it, like he's he's number one with a bullet and like people you know, argue about the rest like Tony Stark number two, readre Williams is number three, et cetera, et cetera,
Like downline, where does doctor Doom fit? He's he's usually number one, And that's that's one of those things that is often presented as a curse to read that he's too smart for his own good. He's too smart in like when when Doctor Strange in Infinity War does the timestone things and he's like, I've looked at fourteen million futures right right, or the leader in the New Captain American movies, like I've made all these calculated probability calculations.
Those are both things that like very much are read Richard's like he thinks through all of the permutations of the scenarios and he's like, this is this is what has to happen, right, And it's very mathematical and logical. And the reason that that can go in a path of villainy is that it it might not be ethical, it might not be you know, human in a sense emotional, Like I think emotion can be a detriment, but it's important to humans and humanity because that fundamentally is who
we are. And if you just do things by calculation, you know, it's like the trolley problem. M h. And I think I cited this to you in our discussion about this, that he ran the trolley problem. Yeah, and one of the ethical dilemma in this movie is to stop Galactus from eating the earth, do you give up your child?
Right?
And at one point he concluded yes, that that was that was the correct thing to do mathematically.
M So, I have a number of levels in which I can respond to this, and it's kind of perfect because I do think that. So I do believe in trolley problems, not as a final way to decide things, but as a way to better understand questions and to avoid because I agree with you that, like pure logic is a problem, but I also think sentimentality is a problem.
And I'm kind of really glad that this is the direction I thought you were going in, because this ties into the ethical question I really wanted to wrestle with, which is that trolley problem itself and the whole nature of it, because I think being overly just taking all emotion out of it is problematic. But I also think sentimentality and working on sentiment rather than cold hard facts
can be really problematic. But before even I use that to set it up, because I will say, as a new parent, and again, I don't mean that my opinion Trump's yours in any way, shape or form. You brought that up to want to give that perspective. I incredibly identified with Read Richards when he said that, and to me, it didn't feel villainous at all. It felt like the statement of someone who wrestled with mental illness, because I think to me, at least part of what Read is
going through. And I'm probably projecting like crazy here, but he he's someone who deals with a lot of anxiety, and one of the ways that or anxiety is kind
of a clinical term. I don't mean to you in that way, but like there are some kind of brains where you look at a situation and you see the worst possible outcomes, You see what's what could go wrong here, and you start worrying about that, and that can get to a point where it's like not you know, it can be a point where it's like you have a really honed danger sense and it's a good thing, or it could be a point where it's like pathological paranoia
and you're imagining threats all the time. And to me, I am a person who has a number of mental illnesses, anxiety depression being one, and some level of PTSD borderline is another, though obviously they're very linked, and a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and the borderline especially is also very genetic. Obviously was triggered by a lot of you know, trauma in my life, but I have a genetic predisposition to it, uh and there are numerous other people in my family
you have that. And when Mary and I were thinking of having a child the first time a couple of years ago, I actually started looking a lot at in virtual fertilization with someone else's sperm or some other way of removing my genetics from the proposition, because the last thing I would want is someone to have a brain like mine, and I want my child to be smart. I want my child to be you know, have a
lot of the ethical thinking that I do. But there's a lot of demons that I've had to wrestle with and often lost and hurt people and hurt myself, but especially hurt others because of that that I definitely hope my child doesn't have to do. And so for me, that's what I connected to. And Reid said that was wasn't a he thinks he's evil or bad, but just thinks he's wrestling with these demons. And I guess he does have a villainy asperking that he's ano that it
could go in this very dark direction. So I'll pause there and then I'll get more into the trolley problem of it, but just to give you a different perspective on where he could be coming from there.
Yeah, I mean that makes sense.
Mm hmm. I think. Then the other part of it to me is and it's funny because this is the ethical question I wanted to wrestle with. If I'm hearing you right, you think that running thinking about things in terms of trolley problems, is itself wrong or problematic? Is is that accurate?
I don't. I don't think so, Okay. I think my issue is that the trolley problem is is simplistic. It's simplistic, simplifies things just to numbers, right, right, And as humans, I think that we have to have emotion and things or like some we are guided by emotions, whether it's right or wrong, and that's what makes us human.
Right.
So it's like, you know, the classic trolley problem of like do you put it on the track where the trolley only harms one person or harms five people, But it doesn't posit whether you know any of these people, right, right, And I think the natural inclination of anyone is if you know the one person, if they are important to you, you will switch the trolley to the other five if you don't know them, if they're strangers, right, and that
you know that. You may say that that is ethically wrong, but that's just what makes us human and I kind of have to accept that that a in an actual live situation, that's how I would act.
Yeah.
And it's because again, like it's simplified, and it's a known quantity in a real if there were some kind of real trolley situation, you don't know if you switch the like what it's gonna do, and like someone explaining to you, like, ah, but if you switch the track in this moment, five strangers to you will die. Like that's never like right in the heat of a moment, that's never happening, right. So I think the natural inclination of I'm going to save the person that is close
to me is just how we act as humans. And that's kind of my issue with trolley problems is like it's a fun, uh thought experiment. It's a fun discussion to have, but I don't think that an oversimplified version of it serves us in making real decisions, right.
I can see that, And I think that can actually be a different perspective for us, because I think for me, it's about getting to best to first principles and navigating
from there. But I want to kind of focus on because I think this is an area of real disagreement for us, which isn't bad, I think, but on this idea of the individual versus you know that the people you care about are the like because and I'll just put this out there, I watched the movie from the perspective of read is the only one thinking properly of the group by being willing to even consider the idea
of giving up Franklin. And when I've talked about this in other places, people have brought up the ideas of, oh, but wait, but Galactus might have just kept going stuff
like that. And here I wanted to use the probably trauma logic of just to if we accept the premise as originally presented by Galactus that if he gets Franklin, he will stop, and he will retire and he will no longer want to eat planets, And we don't yet learn that Franklin himself will now become a new Galactus and go on to eat planets, which I'm not sure the movie actually tells us, but I think from comic books people have read into it, and that may be
a very fair assumption. I think it is worthwhile to consider that as a possibility. And for me, here's the kind of response that I have to what you're saying, is that I think you're correct that there is a natural inclination within all of us to want to protect those that we are close to, those that we have an emotional bond with as opposed to strangers or even people we don't like. I don't think that's good though, and I say this as someone who just gives some context.
And again my opinion doesn't trump and anyway, it's just another perspective. I watched the movie, as you said, as a new parent. Going to watch this movie was one of the first things i'd done out of the house away from my new child pen and I get the
inclination of defend, protect. On the first day when my baby was born, there was some thought of infection, so they had to do a number of blood draws, and one of the nurses who was doing it wasn't doing a very good job, and he was crying, and they kept trying to stick him and kept hurting him, and he was crying more. I have not been so close to throwing a punch as I was in that moment since I was maybe twelve years old on a school playground.
I didn't because I think it's good to restrain those things. But I very much get the human inclination of this is a child, this is my child. I love, I protect, I have to protect. People are hurting him, this has to stop. But I felt like I recognized, Yes, that is my feeling, and I don't think that's a good thing for me at least, Like yes, loving your own people, loving your child, loving your family, loving your tribe or clan or your group, whatever you want to describe it.
Of course, that's a natural human inclination, and I think removing that entirely is wrong. But I feel like a lot of the biggest problems we have in our society is when we go so far in that direction. Is when it's you know, the number of people who I know who make horrible economic decisions that hurt other people because they want to provide for their family or the you know, taking it larger, like, you know, I care about my neighborhood and so I don't want those people
being helped. Or I care about my nation, you know, I want my nation to be great again, So fuck all those other people. To me. I really liked the that it was raising this idea of is there sometimes something valuable in saying our personal emotional connection to one person shouldn't necessarily trump the incredible bad thing that will happen to a much larger group of people.
Okay, so yeah, let's talk about this I mean, you're if we go back to the idea of the trolley problem, m what this situation is is essentially one life versus I don't know, with the nineteen sixties for four billion, three billion.
Something like that.
Yeah, potentially, And yeah, that's that's kind of that's kind of the most extreme example, right right, Like maybe uh, maybe you just give up the one. But I think with this movie, like the heart of this portion that it's getting at is that as humans, as a family, like your imperative is to protect your family, right, And yes, there is a vision where you can say that humanity, like all of the humans of Earth, is one family.
Mm hmm. But mm hmm.
But then like how do you how do you reckon with that that disparity? I guess that's the problem. It's it's a it's a weird situation because it's Galactus, because Galactus is so overwhelming and yes, he can just eat a planet, you can he can do destroy an entire planet. H I don't know. I don't know what the correct
answer is. I think for a movie for heroes like this, and this is why I talk about reading a potential villain like this is his villain moment is that heroes in movies always have to protect as many people as possible, Like that is the directive, and that was like one of the things, to go back to the whole Superman. One of the things that made the Superman movie so delightful and uplifting was that the character of Superman just
valued life right in general, right, like all lifely. He literally saved a squirrel in once, yeah, which was ridiculous, but I think it was ridiculous to make a point yeah about this character, and we we just immediately got it. Like I laughed and I was like, yep, okay, Like that's who this guy is, right, And in that same but opposite way, I think this moment is showing read like this is who Read Richards is.
Right.
He's ultimately convinced by Sue to fight Galactus and not give up their son. But the fact that he thinks about it, the fact that I don't know if he said it out loud or Sue like read him because she's she knows him so well, right, and she was like, you've you've thought about this, haven't you? You've considered it right, right, and and she's disgusted. Like that was such a powerful scene.
She's disgusted because she knows him so well, and and like she reads his face and it's like, yes, he did think about this, but that's who he is, and that leads him to that leads him in other stories. And this is where I'll maybe expand the discussion where he makes decisions that you and I would consider bad, right evil, even because he them to be correct. He considers them to be the logical, correct, mathematical decision to navigate the situation with the least suffering the least loss
of life overall. Right, he understands, like in this moment, like he's hurting people, he's violating human rights and such. Like one of the big things in the comic version of Civil War is read Richers was on the side of Tony Stark and registration, and he was locking people up who didn't superheroes who didn't register. I think it was villains at first, but then superheroes who didn't register. He's locking them up in the negative zone in a prison,
violating their civil rights. And I think Sue Storm found out about this and basically left him at that point and joined Captain America side.
Yeah. See, and this is so interesting to me, and I think show's a really interesting difference between us because in that scene where Sue is so disgusted that he would even consider it, to me, that's showing Sue's potential villainy, because I think it. To me, there's such an incredible selfishness of not even and such a danger of saying I value my family so much that to hell with everyone else, and I won't even consider this possibility that to me is the root of so much of what
I see as evil. And to me, I feel like the story is at its best when there's tension there that. And again, I don't know if this is me and projecting what I want to see, but I feel like this idea of Read being the one who's a little too logical and and and too willing to just play the numbers game, and Sue being the one who's too emotional and only willing to look at like a protecting things, and that gets to some really bad gender stereotypes, which
of course I don't want to avoid. But like, well, why.
Sagan, I s I was saying, why avoid it?
Why I avoid which part.
The gender stereotypes? Oh? I mean, I think this is very much this is very much set up to playoff of that. I guess two Storm is literally the mother of Franklin, but also is considered the mother to this group, right, And I think that is one of the that is an important character dynamic.
I think that's very true. I guess I'm I think the idea of having two parents, one of whom is more logical, one of whom is more emotional, and both to a potentially problematic degree, is a great story. I think there's been a societal idea of men are always more logical and intelligent and women are always more emotional. That is very problematic and very based on misogyny. And I just wouldn't want to see the story. I wouldn't.
I would want a little bit of care that the story isn't seen as re upholding that narrative is all I mean.
Okay, but I guess I disagree. I don't know, Like I I see that all that dynamic play out and again like this is this is like this is where we disagree on this, Like I see reads intelligence as a negative in this moment. So yeah, I think it's okay for it to play out that way. And we have differing views on it.
Oh well, I'm sorry, though I think we're having two different conversations at the same time. I'm always saying that the only part that I want to avoid is the idea that Read thinks that way because he's a man and Sue thinks that way because she's a woman. That's all I mean. I think read being, I think Read being to a degree of intelligence and Sue being to agree of emotion. And yeah, you and I can disagree on which one of those is more problematic, although I
think I'm saying both can be problematic. All of that I don't want to avoid. I want to wrestle with that more and I think the movie does, and I'll get to that in a second. The only thing I was saying to avoid was just the the gender stereotype idea of it. That's all I meant.
Okay, I guess I'm just a little confused because I think it is strongly playing off the gender staeotype. But you're like earlier, you said like that Red is the man, and he's logical and intelligent, and that's always that's that's better, Like that's what society considers better versus emotionality. And I think what this movie, to me, was saying is like, that's terrible, right, what he's doing, what he's considering, is terrible, and we should side with Sue.
I think it is, but I think but I think the so I think for me, the pivotal scene is where Sue then goes before the public and says, look, I'm not gonna consider giving up my baby, no matter what you guys put on me. But also I'm not going to sacrifice you either, And to me, that's her making a step towards where Reid is with him also because I think, like to me, I think I think the movie is more on sue side, and I'm disagreeing with that, but no, I'm definitely not saying I think
Reid is better in that regard. I think in that one scene, I don't think there's something villainous about Reed. I guess I think there's nothing villainous about considering an option. Like to me, Reid is willing to look in an option that see Sue is not willing to even consider, and I feel like by the time she talks to the public, she is more willing to consider that. And
I think that's a change. And I think Reid is also more willing to understand why him even phrasing this as a potential option in purely logical terms hurts Sue, Like it feels to me like both of them take a step towards each other rather than one being right or the other being wrong.
Yeah, I think that's correct. I think that's an important part of their dynamic, right in general and in this movie, is that they are very different people, and they come at situations like this from different directions, and it is their ability to discuss it and potentially compromise or at least like listen to the other perspective, and then reach a solution together, right, whether they whether they both agree
with it or not. And again, like the times I think that Reid gets himself into trouble with situations like this in the comics is when he just does things on his own and doesn't talk to Sue, and then Sue finds out what he's been doings like what are you doing? Like why didn't you talk to me?
Right?
And sometimes his reasoning is like I was too buried in my experiments. Sometimes it's like I knew you wouldn't you wouldn't consider it all right, Like so it's like the times when he ignores her or like doesn't bring her into the discussion, that he really gets himself in trouble.
Yeah. Well, let's now go back to There are two things you said that I wanted to harp on. The first, I'll just mention this. You talked about Superman rescuing the squirrel and how essential that is. There's a scene in Superman and Lois, last of the CW shows about Superman
that I keep raving about. And forgive me this will be a small spoiler, but there's a moment early in one of the seasons where you know, he has this kind of official working relationship with the American government, and because the Americans have this, you know, it's kind of the Walker plotline, although she's not involved, but the sort of like, you know, using Superman to fight extraterrestrial threats.
But sorry, what do you mean by Walker plotline?
I mean, sorry, not Walker Waller, Amanda Waller. Oh okay, yeah.
And at one point he hears people in a submarine screaming in terror because the submarine has had a breach and the submarine's going to sink and everyone's going to die, and without a second thought, he flies off and he rescues the submarine, and he then gets back and is with the people at the American government American military again, talking about how they're going to work together, and they say, we're kind of pissed at you because that was a
North Korean submarine. And he is so clearly baffled at this idea that like the flag on the sub should have changed whether or not he saved people. And yeah, I love that, because you're right, it's his. To me, it's another sign of like reshing the squirrel, of like he doesn't want people to die, and he's not going to care about who those people are or what flag they're under or what it is. It's if they're you know.
And and we talked about this quite a lot in our Superman episode, which people can hear an episode or two back. You know, his perspective is, sure, there's all this complicated politics, but if people are gonna die, I'm
going to stop them from dying. The other thing that you talked about, and I think this is an essential part of the Final four Trolley problem really, and part of where I wish I'd understood it better is the degree to which as official heroes, and it does seem in final four, they're kind of like officially recognized and given some legal sanction to do what they do. Do you have a higher responsibility towards the greater good and
versus your own personal interests? And let me pose to you is I will admit a trolley problem, but at least I think closer to the realm of possibility. And I know there have been situations like this that have happened,
and I'm not sure exactly what the training is. But a fighter, a firefighter, an EMT is in a situation where in one room is a person they have, you know, their wife, their child, their parents, someone like that, and another room is a group of five strangers and they really have time to kind of like rescue the one or rescue the group. I think if it's a normal person, I think you're right, you're gonna go rescue the person you know and try to be a good person to
the others. But if you don't, it's understandable. Do you think that a person who is basically hired by the government to save people is opposed to forego their personal allegiance to the person they love and know to save the greater number.
Yes, yes, give an answer. I think like that's probably part of training, but it is also part of I would assume it's part of like not putting yourself in situations, right.
It's one most firefighters don't work in the neighborhood that their family lives avoid exactly that situation. And that's why you often say police officers should recuse themselves from cases
that involved exactly which never happens, unfortunately. But and so I guess to me, that's the other reason why I want them to at least I have sympathy at least for the people of the world when they get angry at them, because it feels to me like in this unlike maybe say Captain America, once he's gone rogue, they have officially given the final the Fantastic four, that permission and assignment of You are hired by us to be these people, and therefore there's a higher responsibility to put
aside their personal connection to Franklin to save the greater good. Is that an accurate reading you think of? Well, actually gonna say, is that to you? That does that, to your mind change the moral calculus at work here?
I don't know if it changes the moral calculus I agree with the idea that they should not be the decision makers in this situation because they are. They are compromised by their relationship with their son, and you like this is one of those Star Wars the Force Awakens issues, by which I mean this movie presents a new world, a new situation and just like Sprinkles some things, but doesn't explain enough.
Yeah.
Right, So when we get in the Force Awakens, we don't really understand the relationship between the First Order and the Resistance, and like the official New Republic government and the movies themselves never fully flesh that out, which is a huge issue. And here in this movie Fantastic Four, it's the same thing. Like they tell us that sous Storm has established the Future Foundation, which is very different from what it is in the comics, and it appears
to be some kind of United Nations. And they mentioned that they got everyone question Mark to agree to disarmament except for that area I guess.
But which is Doctor Doom's nation.
Right, yes, yeah, but it if you think too much about it, like it doesn't make sense or not enough is explained. Because this is the nineteen sixties, we know what was going on in the sixties in the real world, and it's like, how much did the existence how much could the existence of the Fantastic Four change? You know, the Cold War? Right, because the USSR exists on one of those maps where they're tracking all of the gates
for the teleportation device, the USSR exists. East and West Berlin are listed as separate cities, so like Germany is divided, So the Cold War or like the situation the politics of that does exist in this world. And yet the Future Foundation has gotten everyone to agree to disarm, right, and it's it's not explained enough, and that leads to this problem of how and why does everyone in the world agree to this plan and just like have put
their faith in the Fantastic War. I think, like big picture, that's the biggest problem I have with this movie.
Yeah, yeah, that did feel that did feel really out of nowhere, that there's so much public buy into them, and and yeah, that the raises the interesting questions as well about is the kind of North Korea issue that I talked about Superman, Like, I can imagine a situation with the Final Four, why do I keep calling them that?
I can imagine a situation with a Fantastic four, you know, like go to Chernobyl to stop the meltdown, you know, and like how do does the American government get mad about that or something?
Yeah, And I I really thought going into the final act, when they start activating the portals, that the issue was going to be that some one singular nation, whether it's like the US, the Soviet Union, or in this case probably lat very like one nation is just like, you know what, we're gonna We're not going to activate our portal. We're gonna peace out because we've decided, like we don't buy into this plan. And that didn't happen. They went
with something else. But that's what I felt was missing. I guess is just Sue makes one speech. As you said, it was a good speech, it was well delivered, well written. But she makes a speech to a mob outside the Baxter building. There's like maybe one hundred people there, and I guess it was also recorded and televised. But that convinces everyone, right, I wanted more and I think there
was probably something. So here I'm going to talk about what was missing, literally missing in the movie, which is the Red Ghost, which is John Malcovich's character, which was filmed He was in the very first trailer, So that's why we're like, what happened to the Red Ghost? He was a Soviet scientist who had super apes and also like went up in a rocket ship and got bombarded with cosmic rays and became a super villain, and he's
supposed to be in this movie. And that's why I thought, like, oh, like, they probably have something with the Soviet Union where they have a disagreement and they have to like convince him right in the same way that they talked to the mole Man, which was great, And I think that's that's kind of a component where I wish there had been more, is like talking to someone who in our world is like politically opposed right and convincing them of this plan.
I could see. That has been really interesting, and especially kind of framing that against like, you know, who, where is this public buy in, because it felt like in terms of the Fantastic Four and who they're buying is
and who you know. Obviously this movie is made in the nineteen sixties, but it felt like it was very inspired by, or at least very like kind of coded by influencer culture of today, because it felt like there wasn't quite the like we as a United Nations have officially voted to make you our representatives, but kind of like we give you all this like adelation and attention
and because we are looking to you as that. And I talked about this also on the Next Real podcast, which is more of just a film review podcast, but one of the other people in there Kyle, I think it was Kyle, who was a huge mcu buff. He made the point that a lot of the time that the Fantastic Four, they don't want to be heroes, they want to be scientists, they want to be explorers. And then a lot of time it's not that they're like
they're not the EMTs of the world. It's just that because they have these powers, everyone expects them to go rescue people and go fight the big bad and so they're kind of like, Okay, fine, we'll do it, but then please can you leave us alone and let us go explore you know, whatever pocket dimension or thing we want to do next.
Yeah, I mean Johnny very much. That's his character. Part of his character is that he wants to be back in space. He wants to be an astronaut again for sure.
All Right, so we've gone off on a lot of kind of tangents and stuff. But let's get back to the main question that you'd kind of brought up, could read could Read become a villain? So my understanding of it is that in the comics it's this kind of like the hyper intelligence and the hyper awareness of every threat. Is it kind of like an Iron Man Ultron thing where it's sort of like he he wants to do more and more to prevent threats, but by doing so, he's restricting people more and more.
Yeah, but worse. Okay, So oh, let's let's see how quickly I can can get through this. And this is important for like mcu lower as well, because the next Avengers movie, which is only two movies away, is Doomsday, which will lead into Secret Wars, and the read Richards like plays a huge part in Secret Wars in the comics, and we'll have to see like how much they adapt this.
But you're familiar with the Ultimate Universe right now, Okay, So there's a multiverse, right and in that multiverse, the primary Earth that most of Marvel stuff takes place in is called Earth six one six. That's just the number that was given. And then this movie Fantastic four calls the Fantastic four Earth eight to eight, right, so that they're using that nomenclature. M. The Ultimate Universe, I believe is sixteen ten, and it was first published I think
in the early two thousands. Is like a full reset, like here are familiar characters, here are the Avengers, but they're different, they were edgier. It was very two thousands. In the very first issue, I remember, the Incredible Hulk is rampaging through the city because his former, his ex girlfriend Betty Ross is on a date with Freddy Prince Junior.
That's the flavor that the Ultimate Universe opened with. And every character is just like a little bit edgier, a little darker, like so two thousands and read Richards in this universe is the very saying like his backstory is very similar to the twenty fifteen fant for Stick movie in that he is abused unfortunately as child by his father and this leads him like down a darker path overall, and what ends up happening with him is that he becomes a villain and and because of his abuse, because
of and because of decisions he makes, Like I'm not trying to say like that's the only reason but it definitely sets him on this darker path. And then he continues to make bad decisions, which ultimately leads to Sue Storm rejecting his marriage proposal, and in a very like in self fashion, like he keeps coming back to this
and and and blaming her for what he's become. But also like when the multiverse opens up and he visits other earths and sees the read richers in those earth married to Sue Storm with two kids, like a happy family man, like that also triggers him right, like that that's what he could have.
Had, right, and of course it must be her fault that you didn't have it.
Yeah, well very much. It's not like he he continued, like he chooses villainy at each of the inflection points, and he ends up becoming he changes his name to the Maker.
Oh boy.
He sets up what's it called. It's not the Future Foundation, it's the Children of Tomorrow. He sets up like he sets up the city and creates like a time bubble in this structure, and basically like lives for ten thousand years I think within the bubble because his that's how his body was affected by the cosmic rays. His head expands kind of like Leader esque because he uses his stretchy powers to like expand his head in his brain and so he like makes his brain bigger with his powers.
He becomes the Maker, and in like those ten thousand years he he goes like full eugenics and creates the children of Tomorrow who are like super smart, but also just continues like to imprint and be devoid of humanity, I would say, right, and he becomes this villain and in the Secret Wars, like he continues to do villainous things like very important, like doctor Doom is gonna be important, Like that's what they're setting up obviously the next movies
called Doomsday. But I think, like post like leading into Secret Wars and then post Secret Wars, that this if they defeat Doom, there that the Maker could be like a setup for a villain for the next major Avengers arc. And I really like Pedro Pascal. People talk about how like, oh, he's in everything, but he's in everything because he's good, right,
Let's not forget that. And I think it would be absolutely fascinating to see him lay this character as a hero for the next three or four movies and then but see the cracks see like that Anakin turn, and that's why I love that that scene where he tells Franklin there's something wrong with me, Like if that's the first hint of future makerdom and I'm like, oh, that could be really good.
Yeah, yeah, I have complicated feelings on this. I we're gonna do it. Like I said to me, there's something wrong with me, felt more my brain like. It felt more like acknowledging problems and acknowledging like something like bad or evil or villainous. But it certainly could go in that direction. I could see that, and I think at some point we are gonna do an episode about mental illness as a cause for villainy and that. But I'm
not saying that plot lets me about the direction. I think I would be all four something like that, because I definitely think the I am constantly looking at threats and there were thinking that I need to fix this. My only thought is I do think that that's been done to some extent with Tony Stark, and so I'd want to make sure it feels fundamentally different than the Ultron kind of storyline. And it does. From what you're describing, it does sound like it's fairly different here, if.
I may, like, here's the difference. Tony Stark was reflexive, as heroes often are, and he did like frame it as a like a what was it a armor or shield?
I want to around the world.
Yeah, so it's it's still creating. That suit of armor
is proactive, but armor itself is defensive, right right. The issue that arises with Read Richards as the Maker is that he starts what is it he like time travels and changes history, so he very much goes down that that pre crime type deal to the point where he is like proactively altering characters, biographies, and history to suit his needs and what he believes to be the needs of the world, right, which increasingly grows more and more selfish.
Yeah right. I think like a lot of characters we see like this begin very altruistically, like in Justice Superman of like I'm going to do this to like stop war,
to stop crime, to save lives. But then as it continues, it is revealed or becomes more so that it's just selfish, selfish motivation like lashing out or just making things better for themselves, like in one of one of the stories Read or the Maker, like Read Richards as the Maker tortures another read Richard's, and convinces him that he's doctor Doom. He takes, he takes like a fundamentally good person, like
in this universe, like he's a good read Richards. And he tortures him, he keeps calling him Doom like, disfigures him, puts him in the mask, like your name is Doom, you are Doom. You're bad and soil like it. Just like he sinks in, he becomes Doom.
Yeah, I think that can be really interesting to watch. I think I don't see that. Like when you said, oh, this movie kind of might be setting up Read as a villain, I was deeply confused. And I think it comes down to that I don't see anything villainous in either what he says to Franklin or the fact that he considers the option, and so I hope that they
don't base it off of that. I do think though, and this is a whole other question that we haven't really gotten into because the movie doesn't even touch it. But I think another additional question that I hope the movies cann explore later is, you know, they kind of just send Galactus off somewhere else, and yes, that does mean that eventually it's like to the far end of the universe. So it's gonna be an awful long time
before he gets back to Earth. But he's presumably gonna find some other planets they put him in the past. You know, there's some other group of people who are now in danger because they're far enough away from Earth there where now Galactus is now and maybe we can take Glacus a while to get there, but he's gonna
get there. And at first I did think that it was gonna be something where like they send him to the six one six, and that's why they have to, that's why they kind of wind up meeting up with our heroes from the rest of the MCUs because they're like, oh, no, we sent you Galactus. Oops, let's go deal with that.
Yeah, But I thought that's something like that was.
Going to happen, right, or that if they used all of those, if their original plan had worked, they were gonna send their Earth to the six one six. Whatever it was gonna be. Yeah, but I could see something where he is in some way there are consequences and other people you suffer and die, and maybe another planet is eaten because of the decisions they made to protect not only Franklin but their own planet. And it's that where he's like, oh my gosh, we should have dealt
with these consequences. You know, look what happened when I listened to Sue's emotions and the emotions of the world, and that's what takes him into this kind of maybe I should be the one making the decisions and I shouldn't trust anyone else, because I do think that that's the Like I said, I am afraid of both over intellectualism and sentimentality, and I think there's and as much as I sort of in that moment am more on Reid's side, I do definitely see the possibility of him
becoming that like pure logic utilitarianism says that we should do it this way, and no one else agrees with me, but I know that I'm right, So I'm just going to take over. And you know, to me, that's we said on this podcast a lot that like the best villains are off at least I feel like this, the best villains are the ones who believe they're the good guys. And then I think that's true of most of the most villainous people in history, not all by any means,
but certainly an awful lot. You know, Hitler generally believed he was doing good things for Germany and for the world. He was completely wrong obviously. So yeah, so I think that could be a very incient direction for read to go. I don't necessarily see anything in this movie setting it up, but I just don't have the background you do. So I'm very interest to see if we do go in that direction. I certain wouldn't be opposed to it.
Yeah, I don't. I don't think this was a setup. Yep, by any means to me, I wasn't even a hint of this, but it was something that being familiar with his comic book history and that the movie people are aware.
Like I said, the twenty to fifteen Fanta for Stick very much leaned into his origin in the Ultimate Universe, right, And I don't know that they were setting him up in that way because I think that movie came out the same year the Secret Wars came out in comics, so the full history of the Maker wasn't even really written written out yet. Yeah, but they were kind of going obviously that movie was going in a darker direction with these people and I'm glad that this new one
first steps goes in a brighter, optimistic direction. But again, like it's it's like the Star Wars prequels, like if we like watching that, we know that Anakin Skywalker is going to become Darth Vader. So maybe it's like it's a little two on the nose when they do those things and they have the light motif of the the Imperial March, and you know, Palpatine is like, we will be watching your career with great interest. It's like, oh, okay,
because he's gonna be Darth Vader, we get right. But if they if they set it up in the same way but without us actually knowing if he's getting enough to make her and just like kind of creep it forward like inch by inch, I think we could get there.
Yeah, I mean. And so in my Star Wars Generations podcast, one of the things we often talk about is how differently people of our generation who grew up watching Vader view the prequels compared to people who grew up with the prequels and may have known on some level that he's going to become Vader, but also like at six years old, eight years old, how much you're thinking about those things, and in that regard, I think I'll be really interested to see more of this story as someone
who hasn't read those comic books, like I don't have any knowledge of him becoming the Maker beyond this conversation you and I have just had, so that'll be like I've never seen the Maker on screen the way i'd seen Vader on screen before watching Anakin. So yeah, a lot to discuss. This has been great, Reeky, thank you so much for bringing this topic up. Listeners has always let us know what you think we'll want to hear from you. Please check out all the other podcasts that
I do on the True STORYFM Family podcasts. Riky was both Riki and Sarah Hayashi, Rieky's partner, were on the Star Wars podcasts for quite a while, hopefully getting back both as guests some point soon. I'm also on Marvel Movie Minute at the moment, discussing the second Thor movie and desperately trying to find things to like in that movie. And every now and then I do find one or two, and we'll say, I try to be funny, but the things you don't like. But yeah, please check all those out.
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