Ep 225 - Under the Red Hood

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero FX. Today we are talking about Batman under the Red Hood, Batman death in the family. The first

part. Basicly, we're talking about Jason Todd, the Red Hood, the Joker, and one of the most interesting and ethically rich stories in the Batman Cannon that has been very famous in comic books for some time, brought to life in animation in a couple of movies that we watched, and we're going to discuss all that more with myself and Paul Hoppy right after this commercial break. We have no controller. Welcome back, Matthew, your host. I

am joined by. Don't get too excited. They are still very much not an official co host and this maybe their last appearance for a while until something interesting occurs to them. Paul, Happy, Paul. How are we doing today? Doing pretty good? Yeah? I was debating how many how many spoilers you had in that intro, but I guess we'll say there will be spoiler's forthcoming, and thinking about it more, I'm like, well, it

wasn't exactly entirely you know. Yeah, I mean the show opens with Joker murdering Jason Todd, and then Batman fights the Red Hood and then well, I feel like this is a story that's been well told in a number of places, not in live action yet. Well no, no, no, that's false. It was well, it was told in a live action that very few people have seen, namely Tight Nights, Yeah, which did a

version of it, which we'll get to. But I will say, yeah, for those who don't know what we're talking for those who don't know who we're talking about, we're talking about the Red Hood Batman plot arc that is very good if you If you don't know what we're talking about, I may suggest hitting pause, go watch on HBO Max or forgive me now, just Max Batman under the Red Hood. You do also get basically a full summary of it and just Batman reflecting on it in twenty five minutes in the first

part of Batman Death in the Family. Yeah, it's like the cliff Notes the bat Notes pretty much. Or we will actually do he a summary of it as part of talking to you about it today. So let me actually jump in there, Paul, let me ask you. Can you summarize what is the Red Hood storyline? Yeah, so, going all the way back, there's a storyline where the Joker is maybe the head of the Red Hood Gang or he's wearing the Red Hook or whatever, and he falls into the

vat of chemicals and becomes the Joker after a confrontation with Batman. Right right, So fast forward years later, Dick Grayson has been Robin. He's gone off and he's become Nightling. Jason Todd has become the new Robin. Tim Drake fits in there somewhere. But this is you know, this is about Jason Todd. He's the new Robin. He and Batman kind of you know, they don't see everything the same way all the time. He's he's a little more into like, can't we be a little more violent? You know,

is this really going to be the Does this way work? Which I think is a legitimate question judging by how often everyone gets, you know, locked up and then escapes and locked up and escapes and YadA, YadA, YadA. You look at how Gotham functions, right, And so Rachel Gol is like doing a thing in Europe, like destabilizing the banks or something.

You know, he's blowing some stuff up. He uses the Joker as a distraction, but the Joker captures and murders Jason Todd and it's like the one time that you know, they don't get away, and in the original comic storyline, they like held a pole an audience poll like does Robin die?

Does he escape? Whatever? You know? And then that's like the backstory, right, and then you fast forward kind of to quote unquote modern day Gotham or the where most of the story is set, and this new villain called the Red Hood, which is clearly not the same Redhood that the Joker was, but shows up and starts trying to consolidate organized crime, bumping off a lot of you know, the criminals, right and saying like, don't sell the kids, but you do the rest of your stuff and get me

forty percent, and I'll protect you from people like Black Mask and from Batman, right so, and from me, he's basically, and from me because I'll kill you if you don't do what I tell you do, Yes, exactly. I mean it's that kind of It's like it's you know, the protection. Yeah, you know, I'm just selling your protection from me.

But also like Batman and Black Mask are a legit, you know, other people interfering with their affairs, right, so you know, Batman confronts him a couple of times and eventually comes to realize that it's Jason Todd who's been

brought back from the dead by Rachel Gul via Lazarus Pit. And then Red Hood keeps going after Black Mask, and Black Mask eventually breaks the Joker out of Arkham, and basically the whole planel all along was to antagonize Black Mask to the point where then he's going to recruit the Joker, because the Red Hood actually wanted to get to the Joker and get to Batman and then arrange this like spicy three way at the end where basically, you know they're all

fighting, Well, the Joker's basically just tied up and getting beaten with a crowbar, and you know, there's a lot of kind of this is what you did to me, so now this is what I'm doing to you. This is what you did to them, So now I'm wearing you know, their get up, and then they're all Specifically, the Joker had tortured Jason Todd with a crowbar for a while before finally killing him, Yeah, exactly,

and clearly had a lot of fun doing so. And the Joker clearly seems to enjoy this whole thing that Jason has set up right where you know they're all about to get blown up, and Jokers like, I'm the only one who's going to get what he wants tonight. And you know, then of course they don't all get blown up, and you know, he sets up one of those uh, you know, Punisher versus Daredevil rooftop. You know, either you shoot me or I shoot him. You know, there's

no third way out. And then of course there's always a third way out because you know comics, yeah, and just stories in general. Right, I mean, I think there's a strong third way trope going on here. And so the movie ends with do we get the sense that Joker has survived? Even though we just think to see Batman pulling Jason Todd out of the wreckage, but we learned that that that Joker survived. We don't hear anything

about what happened to Jason except for comment about like where is he? And then in kind of a coda to it, as I mentioned, the movie that came out ten years later, which is a bag of an anthology of shorts called Death in the Family or is it a Death in the Family, because those are two different things. No, there's Death in there's a death in a family, and there's Death of the Family, which is okay,

I believe I have this straight. There's a Death in the Family, which is a comic storyline, then there was Death of the Family, which is a later comic storyline. Then there's Under the Red Hood, which then became a movie, and then they made a Death in the Family. It's like

there's like a live, interactive, interactive film somewhere. But the thing they have on Max is actually an anthology where I think they took one of the storylines and then they added a bunch of shorts and it's called a Death in

the Family. Yeah, and so in it and so in it. It's basically Batman telling the story to someone and for well, sorry, it's Bruce Wayne telling the story to someone of what happened, and for a while, we don't know what who they're telling it to, and basically recounting the whole thing and doing a lot of introspection about his role in recruiting the Robin but also perhaps not not protecting them enough and all his complicated feelings about that,

and all his complicated feelings about what happened to Jason Todd and the responsibility and

blame he feels for that. And at the end of it, what he says is that you know, they know that Jason Todd lived, but that they don't know where he is. And then of course it's also revealed that it's Clark Kent that he's talking to, and as this really beautiful moment of the two of them, like both admitting that they have contingency plans to defeat the other, but also kind of showing that they have a real respect for

each other. Yeah, and I'll just say, so, this is the version of it that we're talking about, and we're mostly going to be talking about this specific version of it, but this is a There are kind of like some key moments in the Batman mythos that have been told over and over and over again, and every time it's told, some details are kept the same and some are kept different. And you know, so Dick Grayson's parents

is one of them. Batman's parents dying obviously is another one. If this is not quite at that level of popularity, as I said, it's never appeared in a movie, but I think it is becoming pretty well known, and it has appeared, as he said, in a number of different places. Batman, the animated series Into Justice League had a version of this story. This always has a version of the story. The comics have it well known, Titans has it well known, and I think it's also and it's

obviously appeared in a lot of comic books and other things like that. And my understanding is kind of the key points to it are always it's Jason Todd. It's distinctly not Dick Grayson, is it. As you said, Jason Todd wants to be more violent. He doesn't necessarily want to kill, although sometimes he does want to kill, but he's certainly he enjoys the violence in

a way Batman thinks he shouldn't. That he and Batman have real disagreements that Jason gets himself into danger and caught by the Joker in ways that are depending on that. Jason often thinks it is Batman's fault. Whether that is or not, or whether it's something he Batman told him not to do, various with the tellering, but certainly Batman fields some guilt about it. The Joker tortures him, the Joker kills him, and then he comes back as well.

In some versions, actor Joker doesn't fully kill him. He just brainwashes him, and it's kind of the like, you know, it's sort of a version of the killing joke. And if you know, anybody is one good, one bad day away from turning there Jason Todd does you know?

The versions is the Lazarus Pit or something else that brings him back but brings out his worst aspects or whatever it is, and that he then goes on to try and consolidate crime and to fight Batman, and Batman is eventually placed in the situation where basically, like the only thing he can do is to fight Jason and some horrible thing is going to happen, and of course Batman figures a way to save it. Yeah, and I haven't seen all of

them, and there's, um, there's definitely a another storyline where something similar happens to Tim Drake, right, But that's that's a separate story that really kind of only appears in that one place, and we've talked about it before. I don't really want to talk about it right now because hopefully people will just see it and it's just really good. But yeah, but yeah, I think I think that's a good, you know, general summary of So

why why do you think the story resonates so much? Why is it a story that people who love Batman keep telling again and again and the people who love watching Batman are really drawn and reading Batman are really drawn to I mean, I think it kind of gets to some of the central questions of like, you know, if you're going to step outside the law and try and like I'd like to have a better word than criminals, but that's what that's

what they use, so we could just go with it for now. But you know, basically, if if you're going to step outside the law and try and stop people who I guess people who are doing things that you think are harmful, right, you know, what measures are you willing to take? You know? And there's there's a question of like, you know, what's what's right, what's wrong, but also kind of what do you trust yourself with right? You know? Like I mean, I love the series

Dexter for some number of serious seasons that don't include the last one. And you know, it's about a guy who goes around killing people who are doing harm to other people, and he's doing that because he likes to kill people. And his dad was like, hey, if you're gonna kill people anyway, you know, you might as well kill people who maybe that's going to

make the world a little better. And you know, you're less likely to get caught because people aren't gonna miss them so much, right, People aren't gonna be like, oh, we have to avenge the death of this you know, serial pedophile, you know, killer or whatever. And not to Nippick. But I think it's an important clarification. It's not even that he likes killing, It is that he has a compulsion to do it sure stream trauma that he had when he was a kid. Yeah, that's a that's

a definitely a a necessary specification. I agree. Yeah, And you know that doesn't mean that he necessarily literally has to do it, but that he has he has, you know, psychological issues basically that right that that um, he feels compelled to do that, and you know, by the end of it spoilers. You know, he's not necessarily only killing people who are doing a lot of harm, right, um. And so I think broadly speaking, I mean I have a question like, can you really trust anyone

to make those judgments? I certainly don't trust the government too, you know, I mean, we recently did gross, point blank and talking about sometimes there's due process, sometimes there's not, but like even if there is due

process, like I'm still against it, you know. But but in terms of a practical sense, you know, they're fighting people who are brandishing guns at them, and that gets to a different point, like what level of violence are you prepared to use when you're trying to stop someone from doing something harmful overall? But also like they're literally trying to kill you right now? You know, what sort of level of violence is acceptable or do you find

acceptable there? You know? And and here I think one of the reasons that I think this resonates with a lot of people is that instead of showing Batman as this maybe maybe a badman, that I actually prefer as this like you know, angry, but not like not filled with the spirit of vengeance, not filled with like I want to kill these people. I want to hurt these people, but I won't let myself, you know, I have more of a view of like the Batman that I prefer is is more like

that's not what I want to do. I really do, just want to stop them. This Batman is very much he's like there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about killing the Joker, you know, right, and they show like he um like wants to just like just crush his throat, and and he's like, he says to Jason basically, hey, if I do that, I don't think I'm coming back, you know, yeah, like I think you know if I'm like, yeah, well I can kill the Joker, right, it's the Joker. He killed Jason.

And he's like, but then you know what about Riddler? Riddler, Yeah, maybe maybe I should kill Riddles. I mean, just these just these two, you know, right, because as you say, with Dexter, what happens, and I think this is history is rife with this. Most of the people who we think of as like the most horrible people in the world, like in their minds, they are doing harm to the people they

think are doing harm. And often, I mean, and you know, when it starts with just like I want to harm the Jews because I think the Jews are terrible like that that is obviously even just starting from a horrible place, but sometimes it's you know, yeah, I think criminals are doing terrible things and I want to harm them. Well, I think there's some socioeconomic analysis that's really needed there about why are you beating up poor people?

Inte. But like where it can also then go is even if you start with the idea of I am going to harm this person because I know that this person is doing terrible things, Okay, but now there are these three henchmen in the way, right, so I have to do harm to their hench henchmen. And excuse me. Now there's this like rent a cop security guard at the bank, and I have to do harm to that person and we'll wait. But if someone knows that I'm the one doing is, they'll

stop me. So I don't have to do harm to the lady who was just an innocent bystander who saw me like and I think that kind of snowballing is definitely a thing. Yeah. One thing I think that that makes this particularly interesting is and there's actually a whole other level to why I want the story so fascinating that we'll get to. But let's just start with this because the idea of the Jason questioning Batman's methods, I think that there are fundamentally

two different like branches this question gets into that are very linked. But I think it's important to separate, and I'm curious if you see the same way. One is, do you allow yourself to enjoy the violence you are inflicting? And thus, how much or how little are you holding back on the you know, are you calling your punches when you need to, are you just not using exactly the full force, or you're trying to not do even

worse? And like, there's a pivotal scene where Jason doesn't kill someone, he shatters their collar bone and Batman gets very angry at him, and I question that given the normal rants we've given about you know, things Batman and

Daredevil and people like that do, and the bodily damage they do. But even putting that as side, But then I think there's a separate related question, which is the idea of a deterrent, which is, if your goal is to not only stop the evil thing or the bad thing that a person's doing right now, but to prevent them from doing bad things in the future, well, hopefully the society has a system into which you can put them

that will take care of them. Our society kind of sort of does, but it's a really really bad one and really inhumane and really horrible, and doesn't use restoration and restored justice in any way. The Gotham one is even worse because not only does it just lock people up, but it's really really bad at locking people up. And so I think Jason is raising like there's definitely that question of like can you enjoy it? How much violence can you

do? But also this question of if we know with fairly high degree of certainty that if we just put Joker into Arkham, he will get free and the hurt people and kill people again, if in this world the literal only way to stop him doing that is to kill him, then we should should we kill him? And I very much sure, like you, I'm not in favor of that argument, but I think it's important kind of do you

see what I mean about separating tho two arguments a bit? Yeah? And I mean almost feel like you got into a third one at the end, but you know, the I mean too or I guess maybe you didn't get into the one that I thought you were going to get into at the beginning, which is like, you know, the sort of breaking the collar bone

and like is that you know, is that too much? And yeah, I do think you know in Arrow, right, they like Arrow like makes this like you know, black Site prison right like on the islands that he was, you know, and like he's basically like, yeah, I'm gonna

store all these you know, super villains here. And I mean, if you're Batman and you have a bat cave, maybe you should just kidnap Joker, you know, like put them in your cave, serve them three squares a day, and like, you know, maybe talk to him here and there. Like but like, Arkham does not seem like a good solution.

I think that's right. And I think a lot of times when stories set this up in such a way where they're just like, oh, the only solutions are Arkham or murder, and it's like, well, no, you know, it's like in in our world, it's like the only solutions aren't necessarily either you incarcerate someone in the ridiculous US prison system or you kill them, Like you know, there are other things you can do, and it's like, you know, whether the story is interested in investigating those and whether

people are investigating those in our world that's a question. But you know, I'm a strong I mean, I'm a I'm a believer in the third way, Like not that there's always a good answer not that there's always you know, um a better way, but that very rarely are we presented with a true you know, A or B binary decision where it's like you can either do this or you can do that. It's a multiple choice. No,

that's not how reality functions. You can try and think of new and you know, more effective ways, and then you can try them and maybe they work, maybe they don't. But like you know, and this is this is a tangent, but but it's related in some ways, kind of related to everything we do. Because I'm going to say a word in defensive trolley problems, because I agree with you that in real life is never that simple.

I think, and I think it's important to remember that a trolley problem, which is I think exactly we're talking abouts where you set up a it's either A or B both have negative consequences, which do you choose? I think that is useful as a psyche, as a philosophical exercise to help people think more about their values and how they see things and how they do or

don't value things. I think the danger is that we then think that means that things in real life are actual trolley problems, and that a lot of our media says, look, here's a trolley problem, and in the reality, the hero almost always, you know, comes up with a third way

the trolley or something, yeah exactly. And that used to frustrate me, but I actually think, no, it's actually a good thing because because that's the point is that in real life, because because it's also not only that there's often a third way, but there's also often so much more context, you know, And there's a there's actually a board game called Trolley Problem, which I really enjoy because part of what you do is like each team puts

cards on the other one's tracks to try to convince the operator to go down one or the other. But the idea that you start out with it's just like you know, um, you know, Florence Nightingale or the guy who invented pop up ads on the internet. And you're like, oh, okay, well that one's easy. And then you're like, okay, but the guy who invented pop up ads is also gonna sure cancer one day, and Florence Nightingale is you know, doing horrible things with ten year old like it.

Whatever it is, the idea is that you just keep adding more and more context. The game is very silly, and this is kind of a silly tangent, but my base point just being that I think there is value to the psychological exercise, of philosophical exercise of trying to, you know, ask yourself what choices people would make in those kind of situations. But then also yeah, understanding that, as you were just saying, real life is never that simple. It's never going to just be a binary and even those

two options are always gonna be much more complex. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not sold on the util of that framework, but I do I do feel like if I don't know, it's the sort of thing where it's like, all right, if you're going to go with this thought experiment and then you're going to be like, oh, that's the bell, that's all for today, and then you're just going to do something else next week.

I think that's like potentially pretty harmful, you know, whereas like if you're actually going to talk about everything you were talking about about, how yeah there always is context, right, things aren't ever actually that simple. Like we are using this, like we're using this as a hypothetical with a deep understanding of the fact that it is a hypothetical and that things are never actually this simple, right, yes, exactly, then like I could potentially be

persuaded. I certainly don't feel like that's necessarily that bad. Whether I think it's necessarily that helpful, I'm not sure, but you know, you know, cool, whatever, do it the way you want to do it. You know, again, for us mere mortals. Sure, sure, for

I will deign to allow it for for mortals. But but yeah, I think, um, it's interesting how often, you know, various media do portray these sorts of things and then say, but there is actually a third way, and like, maybe there's as as sort of contrived as these things

always feel. To me, maybe that's actually a kind of its own lesson, And I do appreciate that lesson of like, you know, yeah, you don't when somebody faces you with the choice of A or B, you can sometimes say no, right, No, I really like what you're saying there, And I think you're right. That's something I certainly have not thought

of before. But but I've been thinking about even before it starts speaking that because to me, I think when you look at someone like Joker or Jason Todd or Joker in the dark night or you know, green Goblin, a villain will come along to make a hero make a terrible choice. What all this is. One of the things that's motivating them is unfortunately a limited imagination. You know. Punisher has decided that there is no hope right the criminal

justice system. You cannot have a society that has a criminal justice system that works in any way, and so therefore we have to just kind of accept you have to let me kill these people because that's the only way. And to me, that's exactly what the death penalty is. The death penalty is

an abandonment of hope. It's a we don't think and it's such a self fulfilling prophecy, you know, because it's like, look, we're going to build a prison system that gives people the least possible chance to be rehabilitated, and then say, oh, look they weren't rehabilitated, so all we should do is killed them. And in Gothic it's even worse, you know. And yeah, so I do like that idea. The third thing, third way shifting though though to the violence question, I just want to agree with

that. I think I really like what you said in response, as while I'm on board with all that. Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. Shifting back though to the first part of the Jason Todd thing, and then I want to get into my wholly other different reason why I think the story is so interesting. Let's talk about this question of the enjoyment of well.

First of all, I just want to make the brief editorial comment that you and I have already talked about the idea that, like, there is violence that is very specifically intended to be lethal, like firing a gun at someone stabbing them in the heart, but then any kind of violence has the

potential to be lethal. You know, yeah, we were. I was just reminded because they the medical staff won an award there was a football player who came very close to dying just because he got hit hard in the chest at the exact wrong moment in his you know, heartbeat rhythm, and he almost died. And there's just possibility that no one has died from Daredevil or Batman hitting them in the head with metal objects on a frequent basis, or

any of that stuff. But you heard us talk about that. I'm yeah, yeah, So the idea that he's even just saying like no, no, I pull my punches enough that I'm not going to even break their collar bone? Is I get what the I get what the writers meant to buy that. I think that was a really bad way to write it. I'm

gonna I'm gonna largely co sign that. I will say, like you can choose your targets, you know, and it like I'm not saying no Batman is going around hitting people in the collarbone all the time, but like that's a I'm pretty sure I broke someone's collarbone one time, and like, you

know it it's a specific place that you hit someone. You know that that wasn't what I was trying to do, right, but like, you know, it's this was in the context of martial arts of a tournament, you know, where I think I ended up losing a fight like thirteen to two, but the other person basically like couldn't proceed from there because there are certain you know, and like like you could say that's irresponsible, you know, and I don't think that would be too far off, but like, there

are places you can hit people that are likely to that are more likely to incapacitate them, take the wind out of them, knock them down, you know. Or cause like some kind of lower level of damage, and there's other places that are that are more vital. You know that if I'm fighting someone with the gun, I gotta say, like, first of all, generally like don't fight people with guns. If somebody comes up to me with

a gun, I'm like, yeah, what do you want? You know, I'm happy about it, but sure, here's my stuff, go far away and you know, best of luck. M But like if somebody's brandishing a gun at you and shooting it at you and or at me, and like I'm trying to defend myself against that, I'll be honest, I'm probably not going to show as much restraint as like Batman does or wants Jason Todd to. Right, having said that, that's what they do, they've put

themselves in that situation. That situation didn't come to them right, right. You know. Then again, like you know, Batman's putting a kid in the field or then now I think he's a teenager. It's like, yeah, you know, it's I agree that that scene could have been written better. I think mostly if he like broke his jaw, because because what they did, he wasn't like, oh, this is clearly bad because you hurt him too much, right, Who's like this is bad because now we needed

him to talk and he wanted to shock, you know. And I'm not one hundred certain whether the story is saying that Batman's definitely right there and Jason's definitely wrong there, or if the story is maybe saying like, hey, this is this is a good question, and you can kind of think about it yourself. I prefer to think of it the second way, you know. Yeah, And but I think they kind of it was like a cake

and have it to situation, right, you know. Well, and I think that's where also it becomes important I'm going to separate these two things, but then say that they're also very linked, kind of to separate the moral

or ethical philosophical argument from the strategic one, right, you know. And that's kind of the same thing of like, if you have an alternative that isn't the death penalty, then there's a very good debate to be had, although I think it's a pretty simple debate frankly, of do you use that deterrent or do you kill them? But if if you literally have no other deterrent, if they're always going to escape, then yeah, then there is

at least a strategic idea of using the death penalty. I'm still against it, but I get that, and I think he yeah to me, v oh, but now he's gone into shock. We can't talk to him.

Argument it kind of falls flat because the whole rest of discussion is about him enjoying it, you know, in Jason's but he deserves it and stuff like that, And so I kind of I guess what I can kind to do here because also it's more relevant to the other stories as well as because all right, so putting aside the specific way this one's written, Yeah, what's your take on this idea of that Jason's problems that he's enjoying it too much? I mean, I think it's dangerous. I think it's the sort of

thing that either you can control or you can't. I mean, I'll I'll

tell you another taekwondo story. I went to see Revenge of the Sith when it came out with some taekwondo friends, and one of them was talking about relating to Anakin and the sort of like you know, seeing like thinking about like using violence for like good reasons, but like kind of how that can be this dark path and you know, and kind of contemplating like, well, what level of violence, you know, And this is person who's I mean at the time was a good friend of mine and we didn't have a

falling out. We've just you know, grown apart because we don't have that shared interest at the moment. But like who also, you know, did serious harm to a another good friend of mine, you know, I mean, but not much longer and um, and was closer to whatever at the point being that, like, you know, I've seen this kind of like you know, to quote Martin blank and eventually you get to like it,

and like it's that doesn't mean you're necessarily always gonna like it. And if you really cause serious harm, like I think it there's I mean, I've had regretful kind of feelings about even you know, causing significant injury to someone who like maybe I mean, someone who wasn't didn't seem like the best dude, you know, had done several things that I thought were kind of harmful, and and still afterwards, like I was like, oh, I don't I don't like this, you know, But at the same time, like

a bunch of people are like, oh, that was so cool, you know, And it's like and just in the context of martial arts, it's like it was really cool. It was like, you know, it's like he's doing a back kick and I slept it, and then I kicked him in the face with just the flat of my foot across his whole face. And it's like that moment of like just landing like a really solid shot is like very satisfying, you know, but then seeing just like blood pouring out

of their nose and like they're just like done for the day. It's like I had this very opposite feeling, you know. Yeah, and none everybody has that, though, and so I would say, like, if you don't have that contrary feeling at the same time, I'm concerned, yeah, you know, and and so well documented the reason why it takes me the

reasons why. But one of the big reasons why people are able to be so cruel to each other on the internet is you never see that, you know, like, even if you're bullying someone in school or something, you see their face fall and like some part of that registers and most of you ignore it because you're fourteen and an idiot, but like, yeah, you hurt, you say something visibly hurt full to somebody if you don't like it, like you're they're always often a little party, right like, yeah,

and so where do you think where do you think Batman is on that? How do you think Batman feels about And granted, he's a character who has been his stories of being told for eighty five years by now, yeah, so there's eight million different versions of it, but how how do you kind

of understand the struggle he's going through. So I would say that in this particular story, in this particular rendering of this particular story, I think he's a little closer to the Matt Murdoch, you know, Daredevil kind of let the devil out sort of you know, um of like there is a part of him that is still very angry and still takes some pleasure in in in the farm to people that he thinks maybe less about deserve it, but kind of maybe maybe do deserve Maybe that is kind of how he's look at it,

you know. I think that's probably partially a reflection of the writer or writers, And I think there are other Batman stories where I don't feel that's the case. I certainly don't feel that, particularly in the animated series. I don't feel at all in the Justice League series, you know, in terms of this, Like in those he feels very pragmatic and very you know, I'm going to do what I need to do to make the world the way I want it to be, and there's this kind of level of detachment

that I feel like my favorite Batman's have achieved, you know. And you know, I think when we I think it was when we talked about the Dark Night, you know, and maybe Batman begins, but you know, I think you were talking about the kind of the anger you know, and them in that aspect, and I was saying that I didn't particularly feel that. I think that's very much me projecting onto that, and I think perhaps

that's you projecting onto that. I don't know. I don't want to say that that is, but go ahead, I was you canna say, like, I mean, the idea that like some emotional assessment of another person doesn't involve any degree of projection is kind of silly. I'm sure, right how the world? So yeah, I mean, we're always seeing three things through our own lens, right, That's that's the only lens we have. We can listen to how other people see them and then gain a portion of that

perspective. But we can't live that perspective, right, We can only live through our own lives and see through our own eyes really and so or metaphorically. So I feel like I don't know where each Batman lands on kind of that spectrum of I enjoy this, but I'm not doing it because I'm enjoying it. I'm almost doing it in spite of the fact that I enjoy it

because I don't want to be doing it because I enjoy it. I'm doing it because I think it needs to be done, and thus I'm holding myself back or the kind of you know, the batman who started in that place and then worked through it and is now this kind of I would say, kind of more fully realized, kind of like in charge of himself and his emotion, like has acknowledged all the emotions and then let them go kind of right, because it's like I don't I wouldn't say, like push them away,

right, because I think that's very unhealthy and some Batman's are very unhealthy, you know. But I think I think it's up to somewhat up to the audience to interpret it, and definitely up to the writers and the actors to kind of decide what they're going for. So I think I'm similar to you, if a little different. And part of why I want to have this discussion is I think it really is going to it's gonna really inform the next question that I want to ask, which is specifically, like, how

do we feel about Batman recruiting children to help him? Because a lot of it is him feeling like he's helping those kids with the same struggle. So just kind of bookmarking that for the future. And I will name from beginning that the way I my lens for this, because it clearly affects this although it's one that I've studied objectively as well as feelings subjectively. I'm a person

who has compulsions. I'm a person who has an addictive behavior. I have never had a chemical addiction of any kind, although I am the descendant of someone who does. But I certainly have had addictive behavior, and I have had compulsive behavior, and a lot of what I have studied and a lot of what I've found in myself and in like the stuff that I've studied, especially in terms of reading a lot about alcoholism, because that was what my

family had and other things like that. But also in terms of other kind of again non chemically based things, is that in many ways, like the having a goal of the compulsion goes away or the desire for it is basically unobtainable. What is obtainable is two things. One is that you can and really the healthiest part of it is you can look to what are the emotional needs or the emotional unprocessed trauma or whatever it is that's making you want to

do those things and deal with that. So in my case, for example, like I was definitely you know, like addicted to seeking out people to date or to flirt with or get validation from, and that came from a

lot of self esteem issues that I've definitely been able to work through. But also that there's a sense of just as you were kind of saying, as you get to more and more of a sense of peace, you know, as you were kind of talking about like this fully realized, actualized version of Batman, I was thinking about things I've read by people who have been you know, alcoholics, but have been sober for thirty forty years, and they'll say that, like, yeah, still get the urge to have a drink,

but in some persons said, it's like, you know, kind of the urge that I have to go be an NBA basketball star. I know it's not realistic in any way, shape or form, gets still there and I think if I gave into it, it would come back with a vengeance real fast. But it's by now very easy for me to ignore. So with all that as context, I kind of see Batman in that regard that I think of him as someone who in a lot of ways, I think

of Batman as a much healthier version of Dexter. And you can say, in part that's because of different writers, but also because, like Dexter, has what happened to him happen at two and in a far more bloody and gruesome way than happens to young Bruce Wayne. But the idea being, and here I'm kind of quoting the people from DC on Screen podcast Jason and not Jason and Todd David, and that would be an amazing pair of name.

If anyone is out there named Jason and Todd, please tell me and your friends please do a Batman podcast or to a pod specificly on the Robbins. Get someone named Robin actually anyway, moving one, but the point being,

I think this horrible thing happens to him. Yeah. Sorry, So what they were saying on that podcast DC on Screen is that with most superheroes, like he is Clark Kent and he becomes Superman, but that with Batman, he is Batman and Bruce Wayne is his altar, is his disguise, and kind of the idea being that, like because it had a fundamental part of him not just wants to be Batman, but needs to be Batman, needs to do something, be personally involved in the effort to not let what happened

to him happen to other people. Now, even just saying that is that that is a much healthier version of I want to go punish the people who do those things. And I think they're linked. But I think again that kind of like healthy self actualization can help turn it in that other direction.

But yeah, to me, he strikes me as someone who is over the course of the stories, he learns to control it more and more and and is it and and that's I think a lot of part of what he's trying to do with Jason is trying to be like, you know, if you're given to that anger, if you let it be motivated out of anger. And here I'm also projecting as someone who loves Star Wars because this is very much a path exactly I mean, and that's exactly that's that's the Huntress character,

that's Phantasm character. That's a lot of these characters who are kind of when they're set up as a foil to Batman because they're kind of Batman but even darker. Like to me, the discussions between Batman and the Phantasm, it's the exact same as the Potisher and Daredevil, you know, It's that

it's that one more person who's doing that. Where all this is going is I want to pose a hypothetical and see if you feel about the same way I do, which is that I think for a lot of Batman's career, not by the point he reaches that complete total self actualization, you know that. I think he does have, as you said, in Batman, the animated series and the Justice League shows that come after it. But I think

a lot of versions of Batman they have that level of control. But it occurs to me that I have never seen him in a situation where he comes upon a young boy or a young child screaming because his parents have just been murdered and the murderers right there. Because and I say that because there's a part of me that thinks that that would sort of be the hardest test for Batman. He just see so clearly and so viscerally what happened to him.

And granted he does that's very much what happens to all the robins, and that's kind of where he comes upon them. But to me, I think that's the and I think he would I think he would still pass that test most of the time. But I think that's that that that that to me is kind of the the apex of what I'm getting out of that sort of like I do think that Batman still has that like there is a part of him that likes it a little bit, but he makes sure not to let

that out because I'm rambling a bit. But here's the one other point that I wanted to put on is to me, I think an essential part of this, it's the safety valve. It's the you know, kind of like

and and again getting away from chemical dependencies. But even there, there's a lot of research that shows that like the quit cold Turkey model doesn't actually work, and that there's some extent of like, you know, can you have a much more controlled, regulated use of a thing, maybe not a chemical thing, but like a thing that you're addicted to or your compulsions to,

instead of trying to quit cold turkey? And to me, there's there's some of that, Like when he goes out as Batman, it's letting out the steam. It's letting it because if it builds up and builds up and builds up and he isn't Batman for a long time, then yeah, maybe he is going to just snap or you know, go do something that he doesn't

want to do. Yeah, I mean, well, so, first of all, I think the quick cold turkey does work for some people sometimes definitely, but it definitely is not a universal This is a way that will definitely work for everybody. Right, The twelve step model has a much higher you know, failure rate than people often like to talk about it, but it

absolutely does work for something people. Yeah, I mean I know people you know seventeen years or whatever and it's like, you know, it's worked for them, and then other people it's like you know, in and out and try this, try that, and nothing has so or something else has, Right, I mean, yeah, for some people, it is like, you know, a little bit of something is functional, you know, personally, Like I also have a I don't know if I used to say kind

of addictive, but like I think just kind of extremist. Like I'm just like, this is either something I want to do a lot of or I'm not going to do it. You know. It's like I've I've always had a hard time being like this is a thing that I'm I'm going to just do a little of. It's like that's never been a thing that's just all that interesting to me. Most of the time. I'm experimenting with it with podcasting now, but yeah, you know, we'll see, we'll see how

it goes. Um. But like, yeah, I and for that reason, I was just like, no, I'm not going to do any of those drugs, because you know, I understand that many are physically addictive, others are habit forming in ways that maybe don't have the same chemical dependency, but like I'm just like, I know, I you know, I mean, I remember when a friend of mine tried coke for the first time and was like, well, you know, probably I'll just do it once and

whenever I'm like yeah, but like what's the upside, Like what are you hoping for? You know, like what's the best outcome? Like you don't like it or like and I don't mean this as like a moral judgment or whatever, but it's just like, you know, it's expensive and harmful to your body, and so it's like, you know, if that's what you're into, that's what you're into. But like in terms of like getting into it, it's just like strategically, I'm just like, what's the plan?

You know, And it's like, well, let me give a more specific example of a place where and you can argue whether the word addiction fits here or not, or compulsion or whatever. But I am someone who's always had of eating problems, and I have a very slow metabolism. I don't really know what it feels like to be hungry. I mostly eat because I want self gratification. I want a physical sensation that will take me out of my

brain. I want to reward myself. I want validation all sorts of physical things, and often like eating, like you know, foods that are quote unquote bad for me, you know, And I should just say quickly here, this is not a diet culture rant diet culture's bullshit. People are beautiful in all body sizes and shapes. Don't ever feel like you got to be

pressured to that. I'm just talking about. I felt like my eating was out of I wasn't in control of what I was eating, and I didn't like that feeling, and I was having negative physical effects on me, primarily because of my disability. So quick disclaimer there for that being said, What I would find is that I would eat foods that were not the best for me without really being fully conscious of it or without really wanting to. And

I've attempted to quit cold turkey many times and it never ever works. But I have found that if I let myself say one day a week, I'm going to have something like that in a moderate proportion, then if it's Tuesday and I really want that thing, I can tell myself, you know what, you're gonna get it in three days and that's gonna be okay, and that when I have it, I can say, you know what, I only need a couple of pieces of of the you know, fried fried tofu

or you know whatever it is, or the candy or whatever it is, because I can always have it another day. Yes, I was gonna say something like fried chicken and then to fall, I'm just like which as the treat Yeah no, no, that was a weird, like hip fake towards trying to respect the vegan. That's not how I meant it. Um, But yeah, and like and so for me, And again, I'm sure all of you have suggestions on the better way to deal with my eating issues.

This is one hundred percent not in invitation. Please no feedback on that regard. I just want to use it as an example of if I leave myself that little steam release, it works. And so I feel like, in that same kind of a way, if Batman can tell himself like, I'm not gonna go kill this person, I'm not gonna. I'm not going to give into that part of me that wants what Dexter wants, right, But yeah, I am gonna go punch a bad guy. And it's I'm

going to tell myself all the ways in which this is restrained. I'm not gonna, but it feeds some part of me that has been there ever since I watched my parents got murdered. It makes sense for him, Yeah, I mean with the addendum that it's not oh well, on Friday night, I'll go out and punch bad guys. It's every night, you know, it's yeah, every night, all night, like, except when he has to pretend to be Bruce Wayne, or pretend to be the Bruce Wayne.

That's a mask, you know. So I I hear what you're saying, and I think that's a very interesting perspective and a completely valid interpretation, you

know. And you know, I wouldn't necessarily say that I've come around to share that interpretation, but I think that, you know, I mean, like you said, it's character with eighty five year history, Like some of the versions are definitely that, you know, and some of them are definitely definitely less that I'd say, but yeah, and many of them are written interesting, Like everything I've said is based on our current understanding psychologically of compulsions

and addictions R trauma that we didn't have for most of history. Sure, yeah, yeah, exactly, and some of which is probably quite wrong and will there will be a you know, more more nuanced or more effective understanding in ten twenty thirty years, who knows, you know. Yeah, I mean, even with Batman, that is both one of I think at times frustrating when it's just used as a throwaway attack on him, but also potentially

really interesting questions. Is the now that we know what we know today, Okay, what if Alfred had said maybe instead of kickboxing, I'm going to take you to trauma therapy, know, like would that have helped in some way? And I think those are interesting questions or you know, like, um, we the movie The Insuperherothics, we did an episode about, you know, in gross point blank where Martin is in therapy. Like it's not

the same thing. But I think Bruce talking out his feelings to Clark Kent is a level of self reflection and of seeking outside you know, response to that reflection that I don't think we would have seen, you know, in the fifties, the seventies and the nineties. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I agree. And you know, it's it's like the end of Iron Man three also right right where it's like it's it's therapy, but it's not therapy. It's like I'm not that kind of doctor, you know, but but it

is. I mean, but that's the thing though, it's like talking to your friends about things seriously and really doing deep introspection like it is therapy. Like they're not a professional therapist, but it's like, I mean, it's not literally therapy, but it's like it can serve a lot of this therapeutic that's a better word, thank you. Yes, exactly exactly, it can be therapeutic. Sometimes it can be really bad. I mean, you know what it depends. You know, as the person who has resting therapy face

but also for a long time had a need to be needed. You can get into that relationship with a friend and it's codependent and bad and terrible, and be very careful of that. Yeah, exactly. It's it's something that can be good and can be less less good. Yea, Yeah, talk to professionals, but also talk to friends. We'll talk to you know,

colleagues. So all of this anything, I think it's very important we had all this discussion first because it can already inform the second part of the discussion, because I actually have a very different answer to why I think the Redhood story is so interesting because all what you said I think is true. Yeah, but to me, the Red Hood story, what would it really rate.

What it also raises is this question of is Bruce helping these traumatized kids by making them his sidekick and turning them into Robin and kind of a chance to unpack and analyze all of that because and that that, I think especially

has become a very popular thing to do. And I think it's not unrelated to the fact that a lot of the night Wing stories, particularly Titans, but a lot of other ones, start out with Dick Grayson being like really mad at Batman and really wanting like some separation from him, and that that often that is kind of them that the Jason Todd's story is often told as the Jason sees Nightwing being rebellious against Batman, and so Jason's like, no, no, no, no, no, I have to be utterly loyal.

I have to be completely loyal, and that that's kind of like that's why he falls so far in some ways. So let me kind of just ask you this nice, simple, basic question. Is Batman helping or hurting kids like Tim and Dick and Jason by making them robins? Simple binary right,

yes? Simple binary yes? Helping anwer It's I mean, he's helping them do what they want to do when they choose to be Robin, you know, And I mean I respect the agency of you know, humans from a pretty young age, you know, like I think if a two year old wants to walk into traffic, you should stop them, you know, Like I'm not like, oh, well, that's their choice, you know. And you could say, yeah, well, if a ten year old wants to go out and fight crime, like maybe that's like a two year

old stepping into traffic, right. So I think there's a point at which it's reasonable to kind of take them into the field with you when that's what they want to do. I probably think that point is a lot younger than most people, or I certainly don't think it's based on some arbitrary number of cycles around the sun. You know, it's like, oh, well, eighteen, yeah, you can get a gun and then go off to war

and get killed and kill people. I don't know if seventeen can't. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you agree with a statement that for some people thirteen is old enough and for some people seventeen isn't old enough, because like I'm actually youre sure in very different ways. Yeah, absolutely, And so I think most of these kids have gone through certain trauma. I think kids like Jason, actually, I think Jason kind of saw more of the world than Dick did at a certain age, right.

I mean Dick literally saw a lot of the world because it's like in a circus, so they're traveling and stuff, I think, But like, you know, I mean he was like a street kid, right, Like yeah, I mean Batman met him when he stole the wheels off the Batmobile and Batman's like that, that's impressive, you know, kid did this, and so like, yeah, I think it's a subjective judgment. I don't think it's the sort of thing where you know, a particular age is the age,

right. It's not like, oh yeah, well thirteen year olds are definitely fine, and you're wrong that it's eighteen. It's like, no, there's it's not a magical time when somebody becomes old enough to do really any given thing, in my opinion. But you know, in this case,

it's like it's I mean, here's the thing. It's like, this is a world of comic book physics, you know, and comic book martial arts, and if you're good enough, you can always dodge the bullet, you know, and like that's not that's not the way our world works, you know. But like so I think within the comic of the context of the comics. I think it makes a fair amount of sense. I definitely think that the you know, the kind of teenage Robbins generally seem like a better

idea than like ten to eleven year old Robbins, you know. But yeah, I mean in terms of long term helping or hurting, Like, I don't know. To me, it just it almost like that's not the question. The question is like, was it their choice or was it something? And it was like, hey, kid, you want to dress up like me and go out in the street and you know, do cool stuff. Oh yeah, we're going to get shot at and you know, we're gonna be hitting people and stuff. It's like, I don't think that's good.

But like you know when when they're like, no, I want to be like Batman, and it's like, I don't know that's what they want, you know, And I just I respect that their own choice. Basically, Yeah, I think I'm kind of in a similar place, though I'm a little more critical of Batman, but I think in the but I think that

I understand it. And again, to me and I have a therapy background, both of someone who's been a patient for most of my life, but also someone who has a lot of training in it and was did a lot of I was not a licensed therapist as a pastor, but I had therapyt of training because there's a pastoral counseling aspect and all that. The harm reduction

model is to me a very important way of thinking about these things. And that it's like sometimes you like you judge, we can have a sort of same and of like Okay, well this person is doing a bad thing, but actually look like, okay, what are they doing and what are the alternatives? And is this reducing harm? You know? And that's so you know, a lot of times like behavior that we can see in a vacuum as problematic because like, well, they don't have the alternative, or they

don't think they have the alternative. And I think for me, knowing everything I know now about childhood trauma and violence and all the rest of it, I would be hard pressed to say that I think Batman's solution to his childhood trauma is something I could like put a healthy stamp on. But I think

it's a very I think it is very good harm reduction. I think he has found what is the best way he can conceive of with his mentality in the world he was created in, which is not a world in which people, especially not you know, independent men, went to therapy to deal with And I think what he's kind of doing, and to me, I think the stories I most resonate with is where he sees, as you said, they already want to be, but what they want to do. They want

to become the phantasm. They want to become the punisher instead of becoming Batman. And so he's kind of saying, look, I'm walking this path. I want to give you the chance to walk it too. He's kind of giving them the third way in a way. Yeah, I think so, Yeah, And I think then the question can be by giving them the third way, is he cutting off their chance to find the fourth, the fifth, and the sixth way? Right? But also you know, but that's

again what the solution is. Yeah, And here also I think there's a level in which connecting it to Dexter makes a lot of sense because and forgive me for spoilers for a show that's now like what ten or fifteen years old times a flat circle. One of the things I think it's like they have

to keep coming up with new ideas to make new seasons work. And so one of the things that happens is he frequently finds people who have the same compulsions that he does, and sometimes he finds them and these are some of the worst villains he deals with, but who never had the Harry that the father figure to teach him how to, if not control, direct the colon

and a healthier way channel. Yeah, but sometimes he finds someone who's the other direction, who once they actually do kill the specific person that wronged them, or someone who's a good stand in for the specific person that wronged them, they're like, I'm good, I'm okay now, And it's kind of heartbreaking for Dexter, but it makes a lot of sense of him being able to be like, oh, I guess it's good. You can just move

on. Yeah, And I think that's an element of the I think in some ways that's a part of the night Wing story that I think is really interesting, and that is in some of the night Wing stuf, at least that I've seen. He never speaks ab in those terms, but he kind of does. He kind of brings up this idea of like Bruce did worked for him, I don't need it the same way I wasn't affected in the same way, and I thought I was as a kid, and I still do want to do some good, but it's not the same for me.

Yeah, yeah, I really like the ways in which, you know, Nightwing and Batman are are different, you know, and and kind of the way the different Robbins and eventual Batman like become they sort of you know, show how there are different paths along you know, branching from you know, the same initial path right unique you know, I mean you have Damien, who's like more Jason than Jason. You know, you have Dick, who's like just it's like, yeah, you know, I kind of did all

that and I'm good now. And I mean there's obviously different versions of Barbara, but like the Batman beyond Barbara was like, yeah, I don't I don't need to wear the suit anymore. Like she's still in you know, she becomes a police commissioner, so she decides to go down her dad's route

instead of you know, batman hands route. But like, um, yeah, I think it's interesting to see like how I mean, there's I think you might be thinking specifically, especially of the fifth season of Dexter, right where Yeah, it's a Julia Stiles season, you know, and I season four, I like almost quit the show, and then like I watched five and I was like that was that was my favorite non first two seasons of this show, you know, because I really did kind of like the idea

of someone who was really angry for very legitimate reasons, you know, one in Vengeance wanted to stop these people doing what they were doing, and then did that and was like, yeah, I'm good, you know. I mean, there was another Batman. I think it might be Gotham my gas Light. I'm not sure, but there's another Gotham story we we covered. No, it was Long Halloween. Oh yeah, that's basically exactly that, right, it's someone who at the end, yeah, Batman realized, like

spoilers from Long Halloween. Yeah, but yeah, it's exactly that. The person's like I did the killing, and Batman's like, yeah, I wish you hadn't done that, but you're done, and I believe you right exactly, Like you were a serial killer for a reason. Not it wasn't your identity, it was a thing you were doing, and you've completed that, all right, I guess Yeah that's that, you know, which kind of tangent land back to the long Halloween story, but it's relevant. It's funny

because I'm surprised that I didn't occur to me in the moment. But I do think there's a flaw with that, because I wonder then what happens the next time someone does something truly wrong to her or someone she loves, you know, and like, does she remember that, Wait, this method I had of finding justice before worked, And I mean, you hope that nothing

horribly tragic happens to her again? Yeah? Yeah, But then there's also the question of, like, if something horrily tragic happens to another person in her family, does she go down the same route? And then does it start increasing until it's like, oh, well, you you cut off my second cousin in traffic, So now you know I'm going to go into full on murder mode again. I mean, you look at how people drive, and like, I can't blame her, but you drive in California and fairness,

and everyone's very Vegas. I don't know, I've seen how you drive. Um, I don't drive. Everybody else does cheap shot? Cheap shot? Um no? I UM. I think at the end of that Batman's like, you know, kind of I'll be watching you or something, right, that's fair. And if you look over all the stories over the year, watching a lot of people, yeah, you know, but but yeah, I I do think it comes down to, you know, the like, well, do you really think that this person is going to do this

again? Or is this like an outlier event? Right, I mean it seems unlikely that something like all of that was going to happen again to that person, you know that was But at the same time, sure, like, yeah, I think you keep an eye on someone once, you know, once they start down that dark path. You're like, all right, I'm at least I got you know, yeah, we got eyes on you.

You're being surveiled, just you know, every now and then you drop some kind of creepy like I'm watching you thing just to remind them, and then you don't actually have to watch them as much. You know, you're

just like I saw this, you know. Anyway, back back to the Jason Todd of it all, I do find also that I like stories in which Bruce is willing to admit that he's wrong at times and grow sometimes and Titans, I think tights and again it's become very fashionable to dunk on Batman and Bruce Wayne all the time, and I think there's some very legit critique, and I think it's also just become kind of a meme that goes further than I would like in many cases, and I think Titans dumps on Batman

a lot more than sometimes it's justified. But again, it's told mostly through the primary character, so it's his point of view. But one of the things Dick posits, which I don't think is in this version of the Red Hood, but I like as a possible interpretation, is that when Batman takes on Jason Todd, he does he has lost Dick Grayson. At this point, Dick Grayson and him are fairly estranged, and you know, he thinks he did all this to be really good to Dick and to help Dick,

and Dick is like, f you, you really screwed me up. And but then Dick keeps doing the same stuff though, right well right, And a part of the thing that Dick is dealing with is like, did you help me, did you make it so that this compulsion will never go away? Or did you give me a healthy way to deal with this? Compulsion or did you stop me from just getting rid of this compulsion? Sure?

And so in there there's some level of Bruce admitting that he was trying to kind of like fix what he had done wrong with Dick with Ja and that that's part of what happens there, and that's, you know, interesting thing I have watched. You can comment, Okay, this is a show, but I think there's a it's it makes some interesting points about the characters that I love, and and the story that it tells to make those points is

very bad. Okay, Um, I kind of think it was like the the the prequels of the like that, Oh sure, sure, yeah, Like you understand some things about Anakin because of them, but you're not enamored

with the quality of the storytelling. Yeah, exactly. So let me ask this, though, this is the kind of last big thing I want to arrestle with, because they do wrestle with it in this, especially somewhat in Under the Red Hood, but especially in the Death and the Family where he's talking to to Bruce, he admits this, more it feels like it feels like one of the central tensions and almost like you can call it hypocrisy or you can call it like a tension that Bruce is wrestling with is he wants

to give these kids a chance to go out in the field because he thinks they're going to do it anyway, but he also wants to protect them and stop them from going out in the field more than they should. And you see elements of this a lot, and he flat out says it to Superman where he says, like, I wish night Wing would stop coming to help me. I keep telling him to stop coming to help me, but he keeps doing it, and honestly, he keeps saving me. But I can't

ever tell him that, right because it would encourage him basically right. And to me, I think I don't think this is which projection implied. I

think this is very clearly supposed to be meant by the writers. Like we have seen that one of the things Jason wanted was more approval and more validation from Batman, and that he really wrestled with when Batman told him not to go out of things like to me, part of what I got about that is that his desire to protect these kids is part of what's causing them sometimes to do dumber and dumber things, to try and prove something to him or

to get their validas validation or something like that. Yeah. Maybe, I mean I didn't really have a strong feeling that way or not that way, but I definitely think you know, I mean you said, you know, Nightwing has an annoying habit of showing up exactly when I need him to. But like I don't want him too because of what happened to Jason and I, you know, I don't want him to be getting into you know, danger and whatever. But like he ditches Nightwing repeatedly in Under the Redmon,

right, like Nightwing helps with the thing. Okay, cool, now I'm going to go chase this thing. Now I'm gonna leave you here, bye bye, you know, and he's like, oh, you got injured, Okay, go home, you know, whereas I'm sure Batman would be like, just tape it up and I'll get back out there with the same injury. And so yeah, the idea that they are actually taking bigger risks and trying to be more you know, like look what I can do kind of

yeah, Like it is funny. It's how like not encouraging someone can actually encourage them more in a way, right as opposed to being like yeah you did good, cool, okay. Yeah, although then again like giving the positive FEVA, it's like if somebody wants your approval, they just want your approval, and like, yeah, I'm I don't really know exactly the best

way to deal with that. I don't know. Yeah, you know, I mean, there's there's real it's kind of going to what I said before of like I think that for many humans, perhaps not you know, those on high in the mountain like yourself, but for many humans, outside validation I think is a healthy thing to desire. I think it has to be mixed with a fundamentally good level of self validation and self love, and that when you're seeking out outside validation to replace any sense of self worth, you

know, then it becomes really problematic. And I think, you know, that's a question you can really look at with with night Wing, with Jason, with all these other kind of people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I think external validation as like kind of like a line check. You know, it's just sort of like, hey, I did this, what do you know do you think? Do you think that is good? Yeah? That's good, okay, cool, thanks, you know, or like you know, oh, well, did you think about this actually?

And I was like, oh no, I didn't. You know. It's like, you know, and it's funny because Batman will say he doesn't get it. He literally pays someone to give it to him. I mean, al phrase that all the time, including also sometimes calling him out when yeah, yeah, Alfred's not always just Alfred almost often ends up a little bit at odds or often often questioning or being like are you sure you don't want to stay home? Okay? You know, I'll get the car gas stop,

you know kind of thing. I would argue, that's not necessarily what he pays Alfred for. And I feel like Alfred pays himself out of Bruce Wayne's money, you know, like I don't. I don't see Bruce writing checks, you know what I mean. And I think that some of the most interesting Alfred's stories are where Alfred either is unclear or even has a strong idea of like is he is he working for Bruce Wayne or is he working for Thomas and Martha Wayne? Right? And then I think is often one

of the interesting dynamics there too. Yeah, for sure. One thing I'll kind of add to that is and again here maybe I'm dunking on Batman too much, but I think it's something that I see acknowledge more and more, and I to me, I feel like he leaning in this direction with Clark in the Death of the Family one and were we going to do a Patreon

thing? We were? I think that's uh. This is also I have a different patron than I'm gonna um and it's kind of the last point I'll make and then I want to let you respond and then also bring up any last things you want to do. Surprise, we had a lot to say on this topic, probably me. I think I've talked about which I talked

to too. I went on a bunch of tangents. I was like, I wonder if we'll be able to get enough at it, Like somehow, somehow I still had that thought again, like, well, I thought gross point blank would be the struggle but anyway, cutting off that tangent at the route or no, I'm not going to get into stop st Matthew convulsion tendencies,

excellency can't. What I think is the other interesting tart to this is the way in which Bruce doesn't want to acknowledge the family because I think when when Bruce says to someone like nightwing like, yes, you're coming to save

me, but I don't want you to do that. What I think of is the parent who is convinced that their job as a parent is to not let their kids worry, but in thinking that, they're pretty deep in denial, because the fact is the kids are going to worry, and they're gonna worry a lot more if the parent doesn't let them help in some way,

especially once they're there. And to me, that's that's the thing that I kind of most wanted Clark to kind of shake him about, but I do think he kind of starts to get there, especially because in some ways, I think I kind of think Bruce finds two families and he's someone he's kind of like the the grumpiest stranged uncle with all of the Robins and bat kids, and he's kind of like the estranged cousin who stands at the side of

the cook out the barbecue with Justice League. But he has some of that with you know, with with Clark and with Diana and all the rest, because I think part of that that's exactly what's happening with Nightwingers. He thinks that he doesn't realize that there's no way Dick can like if Bruce died Batman died because I'm saying i'd be say because but and Dick thinks that Dick could have saved him. That's gonna be a psychologically destructive to Dick and the way

that thinks Bruce doesn't understand. And so I kind of really like that how it highlights that as well. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if we're talking kind of about the death of a death in the family on Max sort of it's it's like a recap epilogue kind of thing, you know. Um, I really enjoyed getting to hear a lot of Bruce's thoughts and justifications, which a lot of which do feel like justifications. You know. He's like, yeah, I shouldn't have let them do this, I should have

made sure this happened. I should have you know, there's there's no wee, there's no It's like it's all like he's taking responsibility for everything onto himself and not kind of recognizing that other people, like like he's very much not giving night Wing agency in terms of like do you want to be involved with

this? And that's because of his guilt. I think over Jason and feeling like he should have not let Jason b Robin basically, you know, I mean I think I think he regrets that or or or the way he did it. Like I think he's a little unclear on it. But he's basically just like, no, this, I have to do everything alone now because you know, um, really what he should do is just be like I'm just gonna bust Superman real quick and let him take care of some of these

things. But now, um, it is always interesting, and it's like there's the Batman and the Robins, and then like then there's the Justice League, and it's like how did those things actually fit together? You know? It's like, okay, like in Young Justice, you'll see you know, I mean some of the Robins become important characters, right, but in the Justice League, like they don't have any of the sidekicks except like Speedy shows up for a minute, you know, and it's like thinking about how those

things actually fit together. It's a little a little interesting. How do the small Gotham issues interrupts Sacks with the like alien invasions and like there's a scene in which he fights um not Mysterio, who who's he fights in azo im yeh, he fights a mazo in under the Red Hood, And I'm like really, because yeah, I'm so in a Batman story, I'm used to him fighting basically criminals, right right, And sometimes there's criminals who have some

really cool tech that kind of pushes them into the super villain variety. Yeah, sometimes they're a little bit supernatural, but they're rarely like you know, like he doesn't fight Zod. He didn't fight right right right, like like those that level of villains. So yeah, watching him fight a Mazo, I was like, yeah, this, this is a this is a tone because there's like Gotham is fundamentally different than Metropolis, and I think it is.

Any part of why Justice League works so well is because yeah, well to the TV show, there's animated Justice League series, Snyder Verse Black, but there's not um. Yeah, anyway, that's that's all grand we'vecover before. Yeah, anyway, one of the last things you want to bring up or talk about about Robin in the Red Hood and this whole story, Yeah, I mean one was just that goals regret at using the joke or as a distraction kind of reminded me of like we just did the last few episodes

of The Clone Wars, where Asoka uses Mall as a distraction. You know, go cause chaos. That's what you're good at, you know. And I felt like an interesting kind of a little parallel. I don't have much to say about that, and it's just a little thing. It reminds me. Actually have another parallel that I noticed, which is that I feel like Batman's feelings for Clark and Batman's feelings for Rachel Gul kind of similar. Yeah, Like he sees them both as in his general line of work, using

methods that he somewhat disagrees with. Right, He disagrees with Rachel Gul a lot more, for sure. But he says at one point, like I have real respect for Rache because he does have a code that he follows, you know, And I think that's for Bruce. I think a really big thing is like, if you're following a code, you're not going to go overboard. And I think Rachel's code, he's already that, but he does.

He did. There's a point where's, yeah, I know Rache wouldn't do this, right, Yeah, he knows there are there are a certainty not a variable. Basically it's like he knows what he's capable of, he knows what he's willing to do. You know, he knows what Superman is capable of unless he gets possessed by Um Dark Side and then you know,

and then you got the gryptonite for that um exactly. Yeah. And the other thing was just that the whole thing at the end, like where Jason, Jason isn't mad that like that, he's not mad at at Batman for letting the Joker capture him and kill him. He doesn't blame him for that. I mean, Batman was even like, don't go to that warehouse on your own. The Joker's too dangerous, you know, Like, which is interesting that the Jokers thought of as being that dangerous because like she's like he's

just a guy, you know. Yeah, but like he's an unpretty he's unpredictable, you know, he's the opposite of Rachel Goule. Like, I mean, I kind of think the Joker's main powers that he's got charisma twenty five. Yeah, you just recruit henchman to do anything and a moment's noted right exactly exactly, and and so you know, so I think Jason takes responsibility for Like I decided to come to Europe to help with this, to investigate this thing. I teamed up with you after I, you know,

made these these discoveries of stuff. You went off to do this one thing and said stay here and watch the warehouse and I was like, no, I'm going to go into the warehouse. The joker caught me and killed me, and that's on me, you know. Yeah, but why didn't you Avenge? Like why do you why is he still breathing? Basically after he did this to me, Like why didn't that make you mad enough to cross that line? You know, like it would it just be too hard.

And that's when Batman's like, too hard, it would be too easy, you know, And then then he goes on this whole thing. But like it's just interested to me that, like the whole thing, like Bruce's whole thing is about like feeling like he should have protected Jason. He should have you know, he was irresponsible and letting him be in the field and stuff, and Jason's like, no, that's fine, you know, right,

I just want you to kill this guy, that's all. Yeah. I mean, kind of going back to what we're saying, it's like Jason absolutely sees Batman through the kind of therapeutic lens that I was positing, and and Jason sort of has that idea of, yeah, if if something pushes Batman enough, he will snap and kill someone. Right, why was it my death? Right? Why wasn't my death that thing? Basically? Yeah,

why wasn't this one bad day? Right? Yeah? Which, you know it it sounds like in that regard, it can sound ridiculous, but like that's you know how often you hear like you know, like you know, why wasn't you know, why wasn't my pain enough of a motivator for you to do this other thing? Which I think there's some validity too. There's a whole lot of real psychological problems. That sounds pretty unhealthy, but you know, but given who Jason has been his entire life, it makes total

sense. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, any of the last things. No, just I mean I think when you add that with like the killing joke, it's basically kind of like because this takes place after the killing joke, right, because replasically a reference Barber we're gonna shot. Yeah, I think it's just kind of like, yeah, maybe Bruce Wayne's not one bad day away from becoming the Joker, you know, Like that's to me,

that's kind of the conclusion. Not everyone's necessarily one bad day away from becoming whatever, Like and maybe that whole journey of kind of facing I want to kill Joe Chill or whoever or whatever, you know, punch criminals until the world's not that way. Like maybe like this Batman has actually worked through that to the point where it's like, no, I'm just not going to

kill people. I've made that decision. That's final, and like, you know, I'm just going to do the thing the way I said I was going to do the thing, which and I will say I think as someone has seen a bunch of versions of this story, both as Batman, but also people have told the version of the story in a lot of different superhero john as well, including the Arrow Verse. The Arrow tells almost every Batman story, right, yeah, yeah, they just appropriate all the Batman stories.

I think this is one of the absolute best. One of my only critiques is that they put so much of the onus of why Jason becomes the Red Hood on the Lazarus Pit. Oh yeah, because because I think this is the killer. I think I think Jason Todd is proof that maybe Bruce

Wayne isn't one bad day, but Jason Todd absolutely was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean the way I kind of interpret it, which is one hundred percent headcannon, is that like the Lazarus Pit gave him a sort of like temporary madness that like he couldn't then have a conversation with Rash and Talia or whatever, and he just like killed some people and ran away.

But then as he's recovering from the immediate effects of the Lazarus Pit, like this is who he is, you know, Like my headcanon is that this you know, red Hood is not the Jason Todd that was created by the Lazarus Pit. It's Jason Todd created by the chain of events, and that the Lazarus Pit was more this temporary effect and that's definitely not the text of the story. But also the story doesn't like repeatedly tell you about the

Lazarus Pit like yeah, turning him into whatever. So like it's one of those things where you can kind of be like, yeah, I can just kind of smoothly head cannon down this slope and then you know, but I agree with you, Yeah, and I like that I Cannon. I think I have a similar one, but it's more the Lazar Pit kind of like brings out your worst ins, So that like is like it basically the Lazarus

Pit. Like if there's any little part of Jason that would have fought him become in the Red Hood, Yeah, but then he probably would have become the Red Hood anyway, you know, sure in some degree or another. Yeah, I'm done with that all right. I think it's a good place to wrap up. Um. Paul is the zen madman, prettybody who wants to find his stuff. He's kind of taking a pause and some creative stuff. But there's a lot of great stuff out there on YouTube and other places

you want to learn about poker or learn about things. Paul's written novels, like Paul's written books, you definitely go check them out. Paul Christopher Hoppy myself, I am the Ethical Panda. You go to the Ethical Panda dot com. You find all my podcasts, you find the other creative stuff I do. I'm trying to create on TikTok a lot more, and I'm starting to dip my toe back into Twitch streaming. I'm gonna try it for a week or two and just kind of see when I do it and when I

don't do it. I'm not gonna try and start on a schedule yet, because I think it's good to have a schedule. I think I think not having a schedule is bad. I think setting a schedule and they're not sticking to it as worse. So I'm gonna start being pretty random, try and give people a couple hours notice sometimes, although I probably just start streaming the moment I'm done recording this, which you won't care about because you're gonna hear

it in two weeks. But yeah, Twitch dot Com, Backslash or regular Slash, the Ethical Panda, all the notes through in the show notes, and most importantly though, all those are good places to give us feedback. What do you think of this story? Is this your favorite version of the story? Do you have other versions you like better? What do you think was Bruce totally right? Is Bruce totally wrong? Let us know in the

feedback We would love to hear from you. Well, in the Patreon section, we're gonna talk more about the idea of sidekicks in general and where Robin ranks up against some other sidekicks. But until then, for everybody else who's not a part of that on math, myself and Paul, thank you so much. We have spoken, We've found a way to win. What are you us