Ep 219 - Shadow & Bone S2

Hello, Welcome this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking about Shadow and Bones season two and all the great questions it raised with returning guest to Becky Allen. All that more after commercial break, we have no control of her. Welcome back from your host, Matthew. They then pronouns as I said, I'm joined by Becky Allen. Becky's someone who I first met through wis

Con, which is a great collection of people who loved media. I want to look at it, especially through a feminist and kind of just interesting lenses. And Becky and Becky's been a Becky has been a returning guest on a number of topics, many Star Wars related, but also Shadow and Bone. And so now that season two is finished, I knew I wanted to get Becky back. So, Becky, if you want to introduce yourself and say hello him, I'm Becky Allen. I use both bay and she pronouns either's

fine. I am a YA author who I've written some YA fantasy. I have read a fair amount of YA fantasy, and like anybody else who's read YA Fantasy in the last ten or so years, I love the Gracia Verse books, the Shadow and Bone are based on. They are amongst my very favorites, particularly the Crow's books, but I also enjoy the Elena and Nikolai books as well. And yeah, I'm really excited to revisit the show and

talk about it with you. And I said this when we were discussing an email, but I promised to harp on the books slightly less this time than I last time, because I have not just reread all of them, which I had last time. But yeah, I'm really I'm really excited. I think there's a lot to talk about, and I really enjoyed the show. Awesome. Well let's just start there, so and I will just say, obviously huge boiler warnings, we're gonna spoil everything that's in season two of the

TV show. We're going to also therefore talk about how the books portray those same events. In cases where the books are, you know, a little bit different, we may get into that where they're notably different, and they're sort of major plot points that may come up in later seasons. Because it's pretty clear that this is drawing from the books. If I'm not in any particular order, we're going to avoid spoiling that. So if you've seen the

show, but not read the books. We're hopefully not going to spoil you for anything yet, but just kind of putting that morning out there. And of course you can always hit pause, watch the show, and then come back. So Rebecca, let me just kind of start there. Give me your overall thoughts on the show. It sounds like you really liked it. What do you like about the show and what's kind of feeling on it.

I liked it. I love all I love all of the characters. They're all my favorites, except that probably this season tomorrow Antolia, who are new in this season, are my very favorites. I don't know that we have a lot to talk about with them, but they are great. They are very fun and funny, and I really enjoyed them. They are if you

like me and you remember characters but you don't remember names. They are the Shoe brother and sister who are with the dread air pirate Roberts I'm sorry from hand and who then become and he's flirting a little bit with Elena and she to ups a relationship with one of the other Grisha who's on the ship. Yeah, anyway, continuing very it's very nice to have Tamar, who is

queer. She's a little bit on the butch side for TV, which does not show butch female characters very often, So that was something I really enjoyed. And she does have it's a very very minor thread, but she does get to have a nice little romance with one of the other grisha, which I really liked. And I just thought Tolia was really funny. Yeah,

they're just they're both charming. I think that was one thing we talked about some one season one was that, and certainly there was some overall discussion about season one without One of the concerns was that you had a character who was you know, all, this isn't a fantasy nation, but it's pretty clear that Ravnika is a in a way that a lot of time fantasy is Great Britain to some extent, and that often you have a stand in for other

related countries. Ravenika is basically Russia. Um they even you know that they call the ruler of the Tsar and the tsarevich as the prince, and um

Shoe is China. And there had been some conversation about that, some of the representation of Elena as someone from China, and some of the racism against her was not the best kind of Asian representation and the like, And so I did think like having those two characters as their own characters, UM really being somewhat developed, spending some time in Shoe itself, UM was definitely definitely a step up, although I can I think there are a couple of stereotypes

that played into that I can understands some critique of, but we'll get into that in a bit. Yeah, UM, so I really enjoyed those UM. I will say it's not to talk about the books too much, but I will say they made a lot of different choices with Elena and Mal in the show that they did in the books, and I pretty much universally thought they were good. But I prefer Mal in the show to Mal in the

books, where he is kind of a sexy lamp. He doesn't really have much interiority or much going for him besides being the boy that Elena loves, and I'm okay with that. I think that's a perfectly serviceable thing for him to be in the books. But I think they made some very different choices in this show which made him a more interesting character. Yeah. Definitely. Well, let's actually use that to dive right into one of the things I wanted to talk about, because we have kind of a list of things.

Probably bounced around a little bit, but you know, starting at the end a lot of this show, you know, season one, there was kind of a love triangle set up between Alena choosing between either Mal, who's sort of like the you know, the boy next door, good, dependable, if maybe a little dull, and of course dark, sexy, mysterious Darkling. And it was fun, it was nicely told, but it was about

cliched. And when we introduced strom Hund, I'm producing that wrong, as I said, the dread air pirate Nikolai, Yeah, Prince Nikolai Zarovich Nikolai. Again, I was like, okay, he's a great character. He's probably my favorite character at this point except for Kaz. But I did think we were going to go a little bit you know, love trianglia again,

if not love quadrangle with um Darkling still flirting with her. And I really liked the fact that they actually didn't go that way, that there was a little bit of rivalry between Mal and Nikolai, but it didn't it didn't go into a lot of the cliche places. They both respected each other a lot.

And even when you get this kind of while she's gotta h you know, look like she's interested in Nikolai, they're doing that for plot reason, and it made some sense, and there was a lot of respect shown between Nikolai and Mal instead of it being oh Mal gets super jealous and then Nikolai's that are confront her comfort her and etcetc. Yeah, I think I think the show did a really good job of balancing it because it's clear throughout she

is in love with Mal. There are no other contenders for her affection at this point, like that's who she wants to be with, and there are very good political reasons for her to marry Nikolai. And that's that's basically what he said. I said what he proposes. It's a literal proposal. He says, the best way for you to have the power that you need to make the change that you want to change is for you to marry me. We can do that. And I know that you're not going to be in

love with me. I know you're probably still gonna be with Mal outside, which is not great for politics, but that is what it is. And so it's very upfront about the fact that it's not a like, oh, who is she going to fall in love with? It's yeah, does she make this cical choice which will certainly hurt Mal's feelings and cause a problem before their relationship, or is she going to just be with Mal, which will make all of the political stuff that she's trying to achieve much harder. And

I thought that was a really interesting framing for it. Yeah, and even like at the very end of the season, Mal kind of has to go off and find himself, and we'll talk about that because I think that's also an interesting direction to take a romance in this kind of, you know, fantasy setting. And I think I think we're supposed to think that there's some possibility that while they're away, that that Elena might start to fall for Nikolai

a little bit. But even there, there was a wonderful line in the last episode where they're flirting a little bit about the upcoming coronation and he says something like, you know, if you kiss me, I want it to

be or if you're smiling at me, I want it. I want it to be because you're interested in me, not because you're trying to forget him, which, again, oft in that situation, the Nicolai character comes in very aggressively, and I think almost opportunistically to sort of say, well, oh no, don't think about them and think about me instead, And for Nicolaich to expressly name that and be like, no, I want you to figure out what you're doing with Mao, and only once that's resolved, if

then there's a place for me, let's talk about it. It was, again, just a really nice shift away from that cliche. Yeah, and I think I think that's absolutely right, And I do think that basically the way Elena's love life plays out is that she has multiple people who are interested in her, but they've kind of dropped the idea that maybe it's a triangle and she's interested in one or the other. How she got to choose,

She's made her choice. Her choice is very clear. So even though I think in the season the Darkling continues to be in love with her in a very stalkery way, and I think he does genuinely have feelings for her, but they are very toxic, possessive kind of feelings for her. She's no

longer like, oh, that's intriguing, because it's not. She is in love with mel and Nikolay is very charming and charismatic and understands her and the moves she's trying to make and the things she's trying to do, and he also wants like they're very aligned on what they want politically for Ravka, and it makes a lot of sense that they would have an alliance and that that

alliance would pretty much have to be a marriage. But they're both also very clear on who it is that she is actually in love with, and Nikolay being able to say like, Okay, if that changes, then we can do something, but not pretending that it's going to change or that he's convincing

her to change. I think that's a big part of why he was one of my favorite characters in this, And again it's the playing against cliche, because in stories like this, one of the things you quickly learn is that when someone seems too good to be true, they almost always are actually too good to be true. And here, you know, we originally meet him as the power behind the people who are paying the Crows to go get her, and now they're going to be angry at the Crows for not getting her,

and oh, by the way, now he's a pirate. No, no, no, he's a private tier. As we keep getting refracted, I should call him the dread private tier Nikolai. But um, you know, and then he but then he's actually really he's Tsarevich and he's charming. And I kept waiting for that other shoe to drop, and I was so

glad it didn't. I was so glad that they just let him be actually someone who wants to be a good ruler and who is you know, he's a little bit scheming, he's a little bit doing what he thinks he needs to do to for what is right for his country and his power base. But he never betrays anybody. He never has a like, oh you shouldn't have trusted me moment. He's just a good guy. And it's rare that we let a show like that, a show like this, just lets that

happen. Yeah, I very much agree with that. I don't think I have a lot to add, but it is nice, and I think in the books, again writing myself in, but you do see much more of a contrast between him and Vassilly, who's the older brother who is supposed to become the czar and is murdered very much because he was stupid, and that

is a much quicker plot point in the book. It's in the show than it is in the book, so you don't get as much of that contrast, but it is very much like, oh there has been this corrupt royal line. We know that their father, or at least Vasilli's father, it was a rapist who had raped Jenya. And that's something which also gets a lot more weight in the books, just because to have more time to deal

with it than in the show. But the fact that in the show Nikolai wouldn't is originally like, no, she she killed him, She's a traitor, right, And then it's like, oh, actually he was a rapist who had been abusing her for a long time, and he's like, oh yeah, in that case, she's fine and he shouldn't have done that,

and like correctly places the blame on his father and protects Jenya. Is another thing where I think that that shows he is actually a good person who wants good things, and it's very contrasted with much if you can go in that direction, especially because I do think there's an aspect for Ravka because then she's at such a point of transition and now and nikola I speak to very different parts of her life, and I think I did actually read that that one

book, and I do think in some ways, both in the book but even in the show, I see where there could be potential with her and

Nikolai. But yeah, I think it's very clear that right now, this is her choice is now, and so as you stay with that, because here's again where I think the book raises a really interesting question and kind of plays with the thought of how love and romance is often presented, because one of the things we learned in this book is that there are all of these ways in which Mal's connection to her seems like it is you know, it's not just like storybook romance, it is fairytale romance, and that it is

fate. It is that you know that he kept finding orphanages that didn't that weren't right, and he kept running away and going to new ones, going further and further across the country until he got to where she was, and that he's always drawn to her and he always knows where she is, and that he quite literally is this last, you know, mythical beast that she has to take power from. And we get into all the ethics about that inched a second, and in a lot of books, it would just stop

there and be like, look, we are the one true love. We were made for each other. It is fate that we fall in love. And then the really cool twist he goes, no, but wait a minute, does that mean I don't know if you actually love me or if this is just because we're faded? You know? He kind of is like, how real are our feelings for each other if it is just fate? And at the end of the book he basically needs to go off on his own and figure this out because he's not sure does he love her or is he

just mystically connected to her and vice versa. Especially as someone who's written books and has written books they both do and don't have romance, and has read a lot of the genre, certainly I would curious your take on that because it seemed like, I'm sure not the only one, but it was a really injuring twist on the traditional like we are faded lovers. Yeah, it's

definitely not standard, which I think is a really cool. Again, I do think in the books it is much more standard, whereas the show takes it in a slightly different direction, And I may be misremembering where they end up in which book, because the season of the show does it combines two books about Elena and one book about the Crows, and so there's a lot going on that moves very quickly, So I could be misremembering what happens when.

But I think the show definitely adds a dimension to Mal by letting him make that choice. So again trying to figure out what makes sense to do the comparison on the discovering that Mal is literally a mythical creature, like the show, there are three mcguffins, and Elena got the first one, which was a stag in the first season and in the first book, and then the second one is a ce monster, which she gets in the second book

and early on in the second season of the show. And then the third one is supposed to be a fire bird, but it turns out it's not a firebird, it's Mal, And that revelation happens very late in the third book, which is the end of that story arc, and so there's not much of a sense of after do they figure out what it is that they mean to each other or what do they want to do, because after their story is kind of done in the books and the show has rearranged it so

that this is assuming there's a third series, in which Netflix always a big question mark, which is I am concerned about because I would really like to see the third season of this show. But it does mean that this is something that that is outside of the realm of the Happily ever After that you get in their original you know why a fantasy trilogy, and I think that's when I was saying earlier, I think mal is much more interesting in the

series than in the books. That's why I I'm really excited. Like the big twist at the end, as we said we were going to spoil everything, I just will. But like the big twist at the end where he is going to go and become a privateer and take over for Sturm Hand and it is very tread pirate Roberts. That's not in the books at all. That's not a thing that happens, and so like, I'm really excited to see a story which I don't know quite where it's going. I think it'll

be really interesting. But I also think it's a really cool choice to have him say no, I'm gonna go find myself. And I also think that's a little bit of a gender reversal from the more traditional female character decides she has to go find herself, which is great, and I love as a trope like this is not shade on that trope, but you don't usually see that with a male character, because you don't usually see a male character whose primary job is just to be a love interest. So I think it's a

cool rehearsal for both of those reasons. And I think it's really an interesting dissection of like is this just fate or yeah? We especially gender thing. A lot of times in the love triangle, it is a woman choosing between two men, and generally part of the idea is that they are always falling over her and she has to decide which of them she's going to pick and and and sometimes it's a lot less empowered and sometimes that's more agency on her

part um. But so they have her be to some extent rejected by him. I mean not in a like I don't want to be with you anymore, but that he is leaving her, that he is saying I don't know if we're going to be together, you know. I think it Also, I'll be really interesting to see where her character goes with that. Yeah.

Yeah, I think in real world terms, it feels analogous to the couple who got together in high school and really love each other, but they're going to different colleges, and some couples stay together and get married down the line, and that's that's they want who they always wanted. But a lot of people break up, and I think it's it's giving them space to grow up in that way, which is not something that they did in that form in

the books. And so it's a really different choice and a really interesting choice. At my college, we always used to refer to the week after October break freshman year as the Week of Tears, because that was the week when you've been at college for a couple of months, you go back home and

everybody breaks up with our high school sweethearts. Yeah. We referred to it as the Turkey drop because it would be Thanksgiving when everybody's back in town and you, yeah, same same deal, everybody's back in town and they break up with their high school sweetheart. Yep, exactly. Um. There is, of course, the added complication to Elena's connection with Mao, which is that she killed him, Um, and he didn't come back from the dead,

which the very statist there. They very fastidiously call him a firebird. They never say a word that begins with p and ends with phoenix or pe and begins with a phoenix. Anyway, you get the point. He's not a phoenix. He's a firebird. But he comes back from the dead and they do a cool thing where at first they think it's Nina and her magic, but she makes clear it's not her magic. Um. But before we

know he's going to live, she's placed in this really hard situation. And I think here's another one of the really great ethical questions of the book, because a lot of it is it's not just him. It also starts with the what it's called the c spike? Was that the name of it? Um, No, you remember what the name was? The sea? Thank you? Where? And this goes back to the first season, and it's this idea of sort of like how much do you have power and magic versus

how much do you take it? And how much is it okay to take magic by literally taking it from other living things, including killing them, And so the stag, one of the things in the first season is she's looking for a way to take the magic power without killing the stag, but alex still kills the stag. And then with the sea Whip, she wants to try and do this without killing the sea whip, but of course she's not

able to, and the sea Whip points up getting killed. And so I think all that obviously is leading to this idea of will she kill now. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as as kind of this overarching ethical question, because clearly alex is someone Alexander is someone who is very willing to harm others in order to take her power, and that that's kind of the you know, she doesn't want to be that, but it's the like, you know, how much can I do the dark side in order to fight

the dark side? Because it's very much kind of a sith thing in that regard as well. What was your take on that whole question as it was raised and how they addressed it. Yeah, for me, I didn't go to a Star Wars place. I actually went to a Star Trek place. That it's very the needs of the many versus the needs of the one, and it's it's a little bit more complicated because it's Elena having to decide to

sacrifice Mal as opposed to Elena sacrificing herself. But it really does come down to in order to deal with the Fold, which is, you know, the mcguffin thing that they've been trying to deal with for the whole series, and in order to defeat Alexander, they have to kill Mal And it's a tragedy in my mind, but it's not really a question like do you let the dark Lord come to power or don't you? And the answer is you

don't, even if it requires sacrifice. And I think there does eventually reach a point of like how much sacrifice is too much and who gets to make that decision, which this is not quite raised to that level because like, eventually, if you're you know, slaughtering masses of people, you're doing the

same thing he is, So what's the difference. But if you're talking about it, it's a trolley problem to some extent of like, right, do I let untold hundreds or thousands of people get killed or do I let the one person who I love personally get killed? And it's it's not really a question when you think about it like that. It's a tragedy, but it's

pretty clear cut in my mind. You unfortunately have to kill Mal right and I think a key part of this, which in some ways I think it would be impossible to do it without this, but it would make the question a lot more complicated. Mal is perfectly happy volunteering for this, and in some ways I think that that's a bit of a that's a difference between neither the stag nor the sea whip. I mean, she doesn't really communicate with

them the same way, and they're not. I think someone could say, oh, but they're not people, but no, they're They're clearly like beings with a lot of agency and life, and they're living creatures. In some

ways, I feel like and contry to say this about spoiling anything. There is another TV show that was watched recently by many people which raises a similar question where the Mal character is never given the chance to have agency, and I think the fact that in this one Mao does, I think really helps to highlight how important that is, because I think like, like, if either Mao didn't know, like Mal was in a coma something, you know, whatever contrivance or Mal was against it, Mal was like no, I

don't want to do that, find something else I don't want to die. How much do you think that changes the equation, if at all? That's a really good question. I think in the grand scheme you still wind up with the same conclusion of does this have to be done? Probably yes, but it does it basically, it makes Elena's hands much dirtier if it's not just a question of do I let this person who I love sacrifice himself and assist in that, or do I murder this person who I love right but

has to die to prevent the greater tragedy? And so I think it makes things much more complicated for Elena and would make her much harder to forgive and much harder to root for, because murderer is bad. Yeah, but in this case, murder is not necessarily the worst option. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it, and I think the show doesn't go that way, but it does do a different thing which they

didn't really touch on. But I kind of wish they'd do more in if they if we get a season three, which again knock on Netflix, but I certainly hope so. Which is that because again, she was very she was hesitant to killing the stag. She didn't actually kill the stag if the dark thing did that. I don't remember exactly how the sea whip is killed, but I think to some extent she consents to it. But neither of

those are creatures that she had this direct relationship with. And so you also sort of wonder, like, you know, if this wasn't the love of her life, if this was you know, random village boy, does she have the same compunctions about it? And also what questions is that raise? Because if then it's not are you not okay taking a single life versus are you not okay taking this particular life that is so much value to your life? Yeah, And I think I think that's what the show wants to lean

into. I think because at the pacing of the show was so fast, they didn't really get to linger on that question, yeah, which they do more in the book. It's a bit more drawn out in terms of the like will she kill him? Yeah, she doesn't want to. I mean, I think there's well, so there's also the question of like Matt was a soldier, a random boy in a village is like, you know, not necessarily was not part of the conflict and did not ask to be part

of the conflict. I don't think mal particularly asks you. It seems like, yeah, you're an orphan in rask I, you probably get drafted. Yeah, but at least have you know, training and understanding and knew what was happening and was really empowered to make that choice yes or no? Does he want to do this? Random person in a village probably doesn't, And so that to me also feels like a different form of do you murder a stranger? That feels a lot more sociopathic in some ways. Yeah, I

think that's a really good way to put it. And it also I think it raises the like when you and I are discussing and it's funny. Again, not spoiling anything, but for those who know what I was referencing about the other series, they talked about this, this is a similar question that I've brought up and on my coverage of that story, it raises again, I think the question of the danger of sort of objective ethics, because you and I can sit here and say that yes, from kind of the objective

standpoint, the idea of saving this entire country and all the people who are who are harmed and affected versus this one life seems like a fairly basic question. But that's because we don't. We're not connected to the one life or to all those many other lives. And then I think part of what the show is doing a great job of as for saying, like, yeah, that that person doesn't exist. There isn't anyone on high who can make that

ethical decision. Everyone involved has their own subjective connections to the different pieces on the board that we're talking about. Yeah, so let's talk about the other side of this big decision, which is what do we do with the Darkling? Because you're right, I think for most of this show this season,

she's not really tempted by the Darkling. They certainly give us a lot of scenes where I think a lot of the audiences supposed to be tempted because they figured out that the actor is incredibly attractive, and as it turns out, Heroine's being almost tempted in very seductive ways by evil men. That sells pretty darn well. And I've wanted to be Heroin liked that a few times myself,

so I can understand why. But yeah, I like that in this story, she's not very tempted by it, and instead we get this really great sort of rejection of it him, especially at the end. What was your kind of feeling about how the Darkling story is wrapped up? I mean,

it feels simplistic to say I liked it, but I did. So. It's another one that's difficult to talk about because the pacing was so fast again that I think that there there's some losing some of the interplay between them in the books is kind of a good thing, because the O am I tempted by him? Am I not? Who will I choose? This of it all goes on for much more of the books, and I think that

cutting that off was a good thing. And comparing how how things wrap up here to how things wrap up in the book, it's a little bit difficult. This is one of the things which I don't want to talk about what the book does too much because they might use this in a future season, and I think it would be great to talk about on this show. I think you will really like it, and I was disappointed that they did not do it in the series. So it's really hard to cast sort of my

feelings beyond that. But I do think like the rejection of the Darkling and everything he stands for is good. And I thought it was really interesting that his mother also had a just a flat out rejection of him. Yea, even though his mother is also object pretty terrible, like she's also a war

criminal. She murdered people, many people. We get some backstory which is partially she was probably traumatized as a little kid, but partially she just kind of murdered some people, and that turns out to be a huge part of the backstory of everything that happens in the series. But even she after all of these years, it's like, oh, Alexander, I loved you, I tried to help you and it wasn't enough, and you have to die now, and makes no bones about it, in a very pragmatic and upfront

way of saying you are wrong. The things you are doing are wrong, and even though I am also bad, I'm not that bad or I'm not bad in that way, and you need to be stopped, even though I love you. Like I thought that was Babar and his relationship to me was in some ways more interesting than his relationship shape with Elena, who he was just kind of obsessed with. Yeah, I think that's a really good way

to put it. And at the very end, after she's claimed her power, after she's wiped out the fold, there's this great scene between her, between Elena and the Darkling, and he's sort of giving his one more pitch and he says, let me be your monster, you know where he's basically saying, like, all these people are gonna be against you, let me be the one who does the dark things for you. He's trying to sort

of pitch his stuff in the most positive light possible. And she says, in one of my favorite lines, because this is it felt like so clearly a commentary on a lot of other recent stories we've gotten Kylo Ran, I'm a little bit looking at you, but a lot of other characters as well, she said. She says, I will save myself. Your legacy is already written for you. There is no redemption, and just stabs him in the belly while he's like not a threat, not attacking her, he's like

pleading for his life and she's like, nope, I'm killing you. And then when she and just that line especially there is no redemption, was just you know, because we did get the sob story about his mother and we saw it way back when that all this kind of started because him and his partner at the time were being chased by the you know, an angry mob, and so there's reasons to sympathize for him. And so when he's like,

no Elena, let me help you. I definitely had a like, are we going to get the redemption story now or are we going to get the He's going to help her and it's all going to be okay and so for her, and we even go so far as the first time she stabs him, one of the shadow creatures comes out of him and has to be killed, and she looks at him and says, oh, so you were never really in control of them, were you, which again could be seen

as leading towards Oh, it wasn't really your fault. You played with dark magic, but the dark magic took you over. And then for her to say or she'd already said, but still the line applies. There is no redemption and she just stabs him again and he finally dies. I absolutely love

that. Yeah, I think that that's a really powerful thing because he will continue to have power and followers as long as he is alive, because he does have a compelling point, which is that the Grisha are essentially an oppressed minority there you know, in the country next to Ravka up in Ferida,

they're literally murdered as witches. There have been many times in Grisha history where they have been murdered by townspeople, like a lot of the Grisha saints were their saint hood was when they were killed by other people for being Grisha.

So it's not like his points are completely without merit, but he takes we are an oppressed group and turns it into we should be the ones in charge because we are more powerful, and like a supremacist kind of way, which is no good, and he is fully willing to murder as many people as necessary to gain that power, and like that's what the fold is. He created it as a weapon, and that was dark magic, and it led to bad things that were unexpected. But then he continued to use it as

a weapon. And when Alina is trying to dismantle it, like it's the whole arc of the first season, if she thinks they're going to get rid of it, he actually just wants to be able to control it, to use it as a weapon to maintain his power. And so that to me, like that makes it very clear that this may have come from trauma, and it may have come from having a valid point at some point, but it is no longer about I am trying to protect myself as a marginalized person

and protect the other people in my community. It is very much about I am trying to seize personal power and will do whatever I have to to do that. And so they're kind of is no redemption from that. Those are choices that he made, and so like, how how do you regieme yourself from that? I would love to think it's possible, but I genuinely don't know how a character would do that. Magneto is rooting very hard for this

character. He's it's very much that kind of a story of the you know, the oppressed group, but they have a lot of these powers and all this kind of stuff. Anything else we want to say about, Oh, just one other little commentary on that. It comes later after all of this, but I did think just to lampshade a little bit more of the point they're making. There's a point later in it where Nikolai has left the room after Elena's having her girl boss moment with the two other grisha we're spending time

with her, Jenya and Zoya, and they're talking about Nikolai. But Zoya says in a kind of flirtatious way, oh, I could fix him, which felt like a very specific callback to how many people want to look like, you know, especially in the kind the fan fiction or just the other portrayals of this. You know, there's the old cliche of the people who will look at someone like the dark Thing and be like, oh, I mean, yes, he killed all those people, but he's just so pretty

and I could fix him. I could make him good again. And I thought like the inclusion of that line was very intentional as a way of being like, yeah, we're not going down that road. M So just picture me holding up a big sign that says spoilers redacted for future books. Okay, that's fair, that's fair. We won't get into that then. But I mean, I do think it's a very like fandomy kind of thing that like, this is a work criminal. He's my little Miamia, and I

can fix him, Like I think. I think that's the thing that the fans can enjoy. And I don't think that there's a problem with enjoying that as a fan. I do think in real life trying to make that defense of a genocidal maniac is bad. Yeah, but I don't care about it in fan fiction, fandom or loving violance on shows, go for it.

I'm I mean, I have not checked AO three, but I'm going to guess that Darkling Elena has far more hits than Malalina because Malalina is just not very hot on screen, Like they're good for each other and they're just like they should wind up with each other. But Ben Barnes is really really sexy and really good at being seductive and evil. Well, and I think, I mean, I think in some ways like I say this for me because um, I feel feel bad, but Adam Driver did nothing for me.

So I feel very much like Kylo Ren wants what the Darkling has. Yes, but it's but it's that same kind of like I'm evil but in a sexy way and I've murdered a lot of people. But isn't that intriguing to you the female protagonists and you the viewer of any gender, And it's like, yeah, sometimes that isn't dreaming all right? Look in terms of seductive but evil and bad boy, you can fix Adam Driver clears the Hayden Christiansen bar with so much room to clear, and granted it's a low bar,

but but you're right. Note I think Ben Barnes is the top, and then Hayden Christians in a way below and then or no Adam Driver away below and then Hayden below that one other thing I'll say in romance, and then we'll get to the Kaz and the six of Crows of all, because honestly, that's my favorite part of the story. And I know I think you've said similar as well. I love unrequited romance stories and I love will they won't they stories, but I hate when they are overdone, and I hate

when they're somewhat contrived. And so the fact that the the season ended with not one, not two, but three one true pairings that should be together all being a part the kas In Andez not being together. We're going to talk about. But like, I have a pardon from the king, but I got I dropped it on the ground, and okay that that was really stupid. It just felt so contrived. It just felt like so that she could hang out in the I can't be with my one true Love group with

the other two. I hated it so much. So so I will say to their credit, and this does involve talking about the books, they are setting up for a really specific plotline from the books that requires Matthias to still be in prison. Okay, so they needed a way for like they need and as motivation had been getting this pardon, and so they needed a way

for that to be her motivation but not work. I think the execution there was really like ridiculous, okay, because but because I know what's coming and I'm like gleeful about it, and I can't wait for you to experience it because I think you will. I think you will like. Okay, if the next season, if there is a next season and it does the plotline that I expected to from where all of the Dominoes are now waiting to be knocked down, I will really like it. And I think you will really

like I think you're right. It's probably the execution, and it's also probably, as you said, this is a number of books all being combined into one. And so if we had all three of those love that almost get together but then has to break apart over three different books, that's one thing. But to have a Nez walk away from keV mal walk away from Elina, and Nina not be able to get to Matthias, all within fifteen minutes

of each other, who got dumped the day before. They wrote this, because this is just someone who's like, no one can be happy, and

I do think like comparing that to the books is interesting. So one thing that I will say, talking not about the books but about what they did, is they did a lot of picking and choosing because season one was book one with some crow stuff it in Season two is books two, three, and five, and it's setting up for books four and six, and so it's very so like some of these things don't happen in the books at all, Like that Malanalina thing does not happen in the books at all. So

that's a really interesting choice. The Cas and I Nesh stuff happens at a completely different point, and the Matthias and Nina stuff is a setup at the very beginning for them. So it's a really like weird mishmash that I think does feel a lot like Who Got Dumped, But it also just feels like, oh, in our grab bag of plot points that we were putting together, whoops, we accidentally put three breakups from the completely different areas into one,

so it's a little bit weird. I think that a lot of that is execution. I should also add that mixed in with those. In that same fifteen minutes, perhaps the most sympathetic character of all finds out that the love of her life just got killed. So it's like just romance is dying all over the in terms of David and January. Yeah, that's that's wrenching. Yeah, okay, But so let's talk about the Crows. Um, I just love Kaz, I love all of them, But but talk to

me that you're feeling on the Crows and how they're portrayed here. Um, I like them. So the Crows are the best. I think that's pretty much universally agreed on. Like I am very much an Elena defense like when it comes to the books, at least, I am an Elena defender, But the Crows books are better. They just are, And I think the same is true in the show. The Crows are a more engaging and dynamic

group. I think the Elena through line is a much more stand like they've subverted in some ways, but it's a much more standard, there's a chosen one Hiro and she has to save the world and defeat the bad guy, and you you know on broad strokes how that's going to play out, right, And it's fun to watch and I like it. The Crows are special, like they they just feel special. They feel unlike other things that happen in the genre that they're in. And they are a lot of fun personalities

playing off each other. They do pull off the thing where it's like very dark and intense and broody and then also lighthearted and funny. They are fun to watch. It's fun to see them go on heist. It's fun to see all of the like reveals when Kaz's big plan suddenly comes to light and you realize that like Nina didn't betray them, like that was part of the plan. Like all that works so well and is so good that it's like

you would watch just a Crows series. Yeah. I think that somewhere in the dictionary they should just cross out the entire definition that they have for the phrase ride or die and just have a picture of a knez and at one moment of like why are we doing this? Why are we doing this?

He killed my brother Okay, let's kill him. Yeah, so or Beauty like in the first season, which she's like, she doesn't know if she can kill because it's against her religion, and she's really genuinely conflicted about it. And then in the second season she finds out when Kaz was a kid, this is his dark backs, his big secret everything. When he was a kid, somebody took advantage of him and his older brother, and his older brother was killed. And he tells Ane that and her immediately there's no

morality, there's no I need to talk to the Saints about this. I need to reconcile the you know what we're going to do with what my heart says is right? There's just flat out then we destroy him. Yeah, and it's so great, is right? Or die Suity Well, and he is very much the same for her. He has is sacrificed a great deal of like his personal fortune and his personal stakes to be able to keep her

from being sold back into slavery essentially. And one thing that I love and I think this is often the mark of a really like compassionate character is when they can observe the pain of one person and want to fix it, but then instead of being like cool, I saved you were done, be like now I want to save others. And so it's just a throwaway line.

But in that last episode when he's back in the Crow's Club and is clearly doing really well and he sends an offer to the brothel where he basically says that he will buy out the indentured contracts of any of the women at the brothel to let them be barmaids. That hit at his establishment and it clearly says, yeah that we serve at drinks, there be customers, but his

words lebino skin trade. You know, this is a salaried position, and that's like, I think it's pretty clear he could hire people anywhere, and yes, their customers are like, they're gonna be flirtatious and pretty. But he's not doing that for the business. He's doing that because he saw what happened to a Naz and now he wants to buy out others as well. It's just such a beautiful moment. It's really good. You describe him at

one point as an anti villain. Talk more about what that is, because he's in the really where like, go ahead, I was just gonna say, I think that was a typo, but it's a great phrase. Yeah, it's a phrase that my friend Paul has used on this show a couple of times. I'm curious what, like, well, whether you use a

phrase or not. Where do you think he stands, because he's like, he's fastidiously the you know, even at the end they've all had their big victory, and you know, the king says, you know, we thank you so much for your help, and I said, we'll take your thanks in gold, thank you very much. Um where do you place him in kind of hero villain status? I mean, he is very much an antihero. He is somebody who is ultimately on the good guy's side, but very

much on his own terms. Um, Like, I don't think he would participate in war crimes for profit. But if he's on the side of like, if he's on Alina's side, he's still going to look for ways to profit from being on Alina's side. And I think he does have a lot of personal revenge motivation, which is is interesting and will definitely talk about. And it spends a lot of time and effort trying to come across as I have no morality, I have no lines. I will do whatever I have

to do to get my revenge and get my gold. But it also demonstrates he does have a line, and he does have like he will draw moral line in the sand and not cross it, And so I think that firmly places him still in hero territory. But he is a hero who does not have qualms about most murders. He does not have like in the books, he'd straight up tortures some people. He is. He his moral bar is much lower than most of the other characters and definitely like sort of the lowest

of the good guys, and he's okay with that. He absolutely he does not mind, and he will be a villain when he has to, But he is not somebody who is. And like what I had mentioned when we were talking about this before, is like the difference between him and the Darkling is very much one of scale, because the Darkling, I think, has much more noble causes for his you know, villainy initially, but is a genocidal maniac, more criminal, whereas Kaz has really only very personal motivations for

doing horrible things, but also is not going to murder squads of people, right, Like I think one of the most revealing scenes about him is when he's he has that final confrontation with Pecca and he brings him down, and for a lot of the episode, he is strongly implying that he has kidnapped Pecca's kid and literally buried the kid alive, and that, yeah, and this is a child, This is like a six year old. Yeah, this isn't like you know, your teen, your twenty year old son.

And I thought it was brilliantly written that I watched that whole scene not honestly knowing if he had done that or not. Where I thought the way his character had written, it was possible that he had done that, And in the end we find that he hadn't, and that he but he had kidnapped the child, which is didn't of itself a thing that should be mentioned.

But he didn't put the child in any real danger. I don't think he ever would, and he actually Little One was kind of jokingly offended when someone thinks he might have, but also like he wants people to think he might have well, And he's been so convincing, and this is one of my favorite things. He's been so convincing that Jessper and WiLAN, who are both crows, they both work with him and generally like respect him. Also both

think he is fully capable of burying a child alive. Yeah, because he sends them to do like reconnaissance Spain, basically at Peca Rollins's hidden country estate, and they discover this kid and they say to each other, we can't tell Kaz that he has a son, because they know full well Kaz will exploit that and do something terrible to this child. And it turns out Kaz already knows and fully is. They're like, hah, yeah, we didn't find anything. And he's like, really, he didn't find his son and

they're like ah, And so they say, yes, we did. He's there, but only because Kaz already knows. But the fact that people who I wouldn't say trust but more or less trust and like Kaz also think it's totally possible that Kas would murder a child, I think speaks to the fact that Kaz has very effectively painted himself as somebody who will do horrible things when the reality is that, actually, no, he's not going to murder an

innocent child. And I think I do think it's also important. I think it's in part because he's just like he doesn't want to murder innocence in general, but I think we are definitely Pecca's child is about the age, maybe a little bit younger than he was. In the flashbacks, we see where his brother got defrauded and ruined by Peca, and I think that's by no means coincidental. He is. Yeah, No, that's it's absolutely unpre and it's it's really well done. Yeah. I think another reason why I love

Kaz so much is I've talked for in the show that I'm disabled. I have a prosthetic leg, I walk with a cane a lot. The way he does. He is some of my favorite disability representation that I've seen, in part because he's not like I think we need more people who are in wheelchairs. We need more people who are, you know, much more. I don't want the idea of disability as a scale, but I should. Whose movement is much more impaired than he is. He's able to fight with

the cane. He does some great fighting moves with the cane that are great. But if I watched that fight scene carefully, he still is he still has a bad leg. Like he's not faking that by any means, but there's a beautiful scene where they talk about like people go I think when they're and shoe and talk about like someone going after your weakness, and he makes clear that he wants everyone to think his weakness is the cane and his bad leg. It's not. His weakness is Anez like his feelings for her,

because that's the part I know. It's so romantic and it's so beautiful. It's just like but it's just it was just a lot of times when disabled characters are in this show, either they're the like the thing that has to be rescued, or they're they have such a heart of gold, they're just perfect and wonderful, and how can you not want to help them. And so having someone who's disabled also be kind of an a hole and just really dark, but also have this incredible romantic side, it was just so great

to watch. It's it's really great. And the fact they never he doesn't conveniently become not disabled. He doesn't have a he's not a grisha. He doesn't have a superpower that makes up for makes up for that's not a great way of putting it. He doesn't have something that makes his disapo no longer relevant. Right, which has a bad Yes, so he has a bad

leg. He uses a cane. He can walk without the cane at some for some period of time and will eventually need it or need to stop walking, and he is the scene I will say it's better in the books, but the scene where he basically walks into one of the clubs where he used to work and is like, yeah, so I will fight all comers and if I win, you all have to work for me now, and then fights all comers, even knowing he is going like he's going to be in

pain because he's in this massive fist fight, but he's specifically going to be in pain because of his disability, and it's a real risk because he knows that he has to balance what he can do with how like how far he can push himself, and he takes that risk. Anyway, it's really good.

Yeah, I can definitely imagine that and both I mean just the same A graphic of it, like I'm not someone who really loves fight scenes, but watching him use the cane to grab a chair and throw it, like, it's clear that this is someone who has thought about did you watch the show Hawkeye, the MCU show No Echo was one of the characters on there, and she's kind of a villain, but she has some she kind of becomes a good guy towards the end, good character who heard at the end.

She has a prosthetic leg, and there's a couple of times where she uses the prosthetic leg in very specific ways in combat that you couldn't do with a normal leg. And I just I love that and watching him do that thing with a cane. But you're right, it's also he knows how many spoons he has, you know, to use our own a modern language,

and he balances that. And I will say, just as like a shout out to leave our dugo the author she has spoken about she has I don't know precisely, you know what the background out than it is, but it is not my point. But she has a bad leg. She uses a cane. Yeah, And she wrote Kaz in part because she wanted to a disabled character who was a badass. And that's really awesome, And she just

landed an enormous book deal. Like that's a whole side tangent. But she is making eight figures, which eight figures, I think it's to write ten books across the publisher They're like, we don't care what they are, we don't care what genre, we don't care what h range. Just keep writing books for us. And I think having a disabled woman writer make that kind of bank is really awesome. Yeah, and she's really cool anyway, So

that's a whole side tangent. But I think that like, one of the ways that you get better disability rep is to have more disabled people involved in media creation. And I think that this is a really good like, look at how powerful that can be. Yeah, I think it really is, especially because and here's my one big bone to pick with the way his story

is told, and I'm curious your thoughts on it. One thing they also make clear, and this is someone I think we often like to think of physical disability and mental disability or mental health issues as fundamentally different things that are totally unconnected and totally unlinked. And there are often a lot of the disability

communication like when you say, oh, this person is disabled. I think for most people, the image as a person in a wheelchair, I mean, like quite literally is the logo for you know, accessibility and stuff like that. And obviously there's many other physical disabilities, but also mental disability is a big thing, and I think we kind of get you know, this

is Grisha in approximate eighteen hundreds kind of world. We don't get modern medical tech terminology used what I think saying that he has PTSD or borderline or something like that is very legitimate, and seeing the way that's portrayed, I thought was really beautiful, especially because we get a better sense of this is why he doesn't like to be touched, and this is why he doesn't why he

keeps his gloves on all the time. It's because he has very big issues about being touched, which again can be very common with people who have a lot of childhood trauma. How did you feel about that was portrayed and then how that comes about in his romance with and As I So that was one of the few moments on the show that I did not think landed well.

Yeah, And again it's one that I can't really talk about without talking about the books because a lot of the dialogue for that is directly from the book. But like so I said that they do book five, that dialogue is in book four, okay, and like I literally looked it up before we did this. I was like, I'm not where where is that? I think it lands very differently in the book because his relationship with her is at

a different point in the book. And just to be here, we're talking about the scene where he finally sort of professes his feelings for her and she kind of pushes him to do it, you know, she says, what do you want? And he says to die under a pile of gold, which I'm okay with the idea that Kes is a dragon now, but she pushes a little more and he he says, no, I don't want you to leave. I want you and and her response is to say, you know, to kind of almost mock him a little bit and say, but

but would you want me with your gloves on? Would you turn your face when I try to kiss you? And actual renown this, I can quote it. And then her final line is I will have you without your armor, Kaz Brecker, or I'll not have you at all. And as I hear, we're going with the books, but just first, just kind of

expell it out. What about that didn't land well for you? It didn't land well for me because it feels a lot like I don't want to deal with your mental health issues kaz Brecker, so come back to me when you've healed a little, which is complicated because on the one hand, you can't

necessarily ask you ask your loved ones to fix you. You can't like if you're going to be somebody who I think he would be very toxic in a relationship, and a lot of that is from the PTSD, but that doesn't mean it would be okay to be toxic in a relationship, and so that's a really complicated fine line to walk, and I think for me, the tone of the show ended up too much on the side of I don't want to deal with your issues, as opposed to how I read it in the

books, where it was much more about you haven't yet let me in on understanding where you came from and what your trauma is, and I'm not willing to commit myself to a relationship with somebody who doesn't trust me with that, which to me, those felt like and that's some of that me reading into

it. But to me, those felt like very different scenes because I think we had seen more of them trusting and taking care of and sacrificing for each other at that point in the show, whereas I think in the books, it still feels more one sided. Yeah, and so it feels much more like, yeah, it's a good choice for her to say, I'm not going to settle for a relationship with somebody who won't let me in, and so, like the line about armor feels much more like please trust me,

as opposed to I don't want to deal with your issues. Yeah, And I think that would make because I was thinking about if you just had one or two more lines from her, that scene would land so differently because to me, I think you're right. I think if it is about the trust

thing, it makes sense. Or even I think, you know, different people have different levels of physical touch and physical affection that they need in a relationship, and I think for someone to say, like, I have all the respect in the world for where you are and that for you physical touch is very difficult, but I really need physical touch and a relationship, and until you're able to give more, I don't know if I can be with

you. That's a very different conversation to me. What was so hard about it, especially yet because there was a little bit of that trust, but it was almost more like, you know, I need you to go this far? Is it felt like it came right after he has made a huge step in that direction where he's like, okay, like he's loosened the bonds on his armor and he's shown that he's trying to work towards taking it off,

but that it's going to be a slow process. And again like for her to say I can't be here for the process, which I guess she's kind of doing, but it just there was no acknowledgment of like, I love that you've taken this first step, Now I need you to go further before I can be with you. It just kind of felt like shaming him, and especially now that we've linked that the fact that he has the problems

with touch is so linked to his trauma. It just really felt wrong, and I kind of like I couldn't really cheer for her as she walked away. Yeah, I feel like again, so, since I haven't reread the books, I don't remember exactly which facets of their relationship have happened and which

haven't yet. I also think in some ways she has more so she makes a lot of decisions in the book about what she's going to do in the future that I think it implies that maybe Kaz has given her some of the ideas for them or has arranged them, and that feels very different to me in having him sort of be the one pushing those even though they are things that she wants, they are good things, as opposed to the books, where she cares very deeply about him and wants him to trust her, but

she's not making decisions assuming that her life is going to be intertwined with his. She's making decisions for herself about you know, what's she going to do with the cut of the money that they get from this pig heist. And she knows what she wants to do and would love for him to be part of her life, but has made a decision that because he won't trust her, she can't build that life image around him, which I think is really valid and it's a really good choice, and I really like the way that's

handled. So it was a little bit disappointing in the series, and I think there were some reasons for those choices, but I think it was a little bit disappointing that it was much more like, ah, yes, I've been secretly looking for your family this whole time, which he may have in the books, I don't remember if she had said she wanted to find them first, or if he had been looking for them first, but it felt

and like her. Without getting into the details of what I do or not don't remember, there is definitely a chance that some of what I'm remembering happened in slightly different orders. So it may not be as off from the books as I think it is, but I think it casts has much more.

I think I think the show tries to make him more sympathetic by making him letting him be more open with her earlier, and unfortunately, the flip side of that is that it means that her rejection of him there comes off a lot more poorly than if they are still in the midst of things working out. So it's it's really good dialogue in the context that it is in the book, and it really rubbed me the wrong way in the show. Yeah, and again it sounds like and I'm not complaining, I thought the show

was phenomenal. It though, does sound like it's one of those where like, because they're trying to have this very specific rhythm of season one, we establish all these couples who might get together. Season two, they get together, but then they get or at least they lean towards it, but then they get separated again so that by the end of season three we can have

you know, them all getting there happily. Ever after is that they needed to kind of like pull things for a couple different parts, and so it just it just it just felt like it just didn't work. So but I'm glad we're particularly because these issues of romance and mental trauma and touch and you know, are all thinking, like, I love that we're exploring a character who has real trouble being touched romantically because of their trauma, and that it's

a male character or we don't see that often. So I love that we're doing this, and I have faith that we're going to see it done well. I just want us to comment on that one part. Yeah, I that hurts. So you had originally like put that into the discussion, and I was really glad that you had, because I had definitely thought about it and been like, is that too specific? Am I reading too much into

that? So I was really glad that I was like, no, okay, that really that moment did not land the way they wanted it too, And yeah, and it's it's not a great moment. Which is sad because everything else about their relationship is so good. It really is, it really is. And again, we still have a third season, so we'll go there, yes, and I will be. Yeah, I'm very excited for for more of that season. So there's a lot more we could talk about.

And the question of like the Saints and religion is one that we're actually going to talk about a little bit in the Patreon segment at the end for patrons. But just quickly before that, is there any of the last points or comments you wanted to make or questions you wanted to raise? Why are pirates so cool in fiction? Pers privateers? Yeah? Now, I don't know that I have I have much else. I just I really really enjoyed

the series. I think that there were some cool things that they did in it that, like, like I said, I liked better than the way some of the things were handled in the books. And I am I freely hope they get a third season because I want to see the heist so bad. Yeah, I think it would be really cool if they actually do the stuff in the next season that I think they're going to, so yeah, and it would be nice if they get the next season to actually get to

see the Nina Madias plotline. Yeah, they were set up so well. Their chemistry in season one I reached the whole like her seducing him, and you know, the Romeo and Juliet ands of it was so well done, and I just I get why you were keeping them away, but I just is he can engage in the fights and I just didn't care in the same way, and it just felt like those two were in a holding pattern.

Um. Yeah, really glad that we're gonna see where that goes. Yeah, Um, but yeah, I think I think that's pretty much it for me. I definitely would recommend the show. It does have that. I think of it as like the pacing of a CW teen drama in a lot of ways, where it moves fast and the costumes all look a little bit cheap and ridiculous, but it's so much fun that it doesn't matter. And so I if you enjoyed The Vampire Diaries, you should watch Shadow and Bone.

And if you like Heis, you should read six of the Rosy, which I know I said last time and I talked about it slightly less this time, but for real, read these books. They are very good and if you just want the absolute best and you're not so into the like ya fantasy love Triangle read Six of Crows. It's the books that's that are about specifically Kaz and his crew as opposed to Elena and now they are phenomenal.

We haven't even talked about Jasper and the I forgot. I forgot. We had a one night stand and we turned into like long term lovers and it's such a beautiful story. It's so well thought. Oh they're so good. Jesper and Wilon absolute like they are the OTP. Like, let's be real. That's very fair. That's very fair. All right. Well, Becky has always thank you so much for me In a part you go Becky or Becca for some reason, I got Becky, thank you. Okay, that's

Becky, That's what I got thought. Okay, Becky's always thank you so much for this. We're gonna have you on for just a little while longer for the patrons, but everyone who's not sticking around for that. You're a published author and you've written some really great stuff. Talk about a little more about where people can find you, both commentary stuff you've done, but also

your actual writings. Um. Yeah, so my books. You can check them out at Becky allenbooks dot com if you want all of the links. But I have written two YA fantasy novels, like I said, I Am Part of That World, that are about a very angry teenage girl in a desert world who discovers the water that can bring back her the magic that can

bring back her world's water. But she's a slave who has been abused, and she doesn't really want to help anyone in her world, and so it's very much about what what could possibly make her decide that it's that she's going to help people after all of the trauma that she has. It's fair and so Bound by Blood and Sand is the first book. If you want me, like I said Becky allenbooks dot com, you can find me on Twitter as long as Twitter's days afloat which who knows I am at all reb a

L L R EV. And you can also from either Twitter or my website find my newsletter, which I send once every couple of months and it tends to be a long ramble about writing or learning to swim as an adult, taking adult swimming classes, and dealing with burnout and other just general living life and trying to figure out how all those pieces fit together. Stuff nice, nice, well, So glad to have you on as always, Definitely do

check that out. Some great writing in those books sounds weird. Definitely check all that out. Becky's a great writer as well as a great commentator on this stuff. So good to have you on. And of course those of you who are tuning in you can find this podcast as well as my Star Wars Universe podcast that Becky has been a guest on. We're a great couple of things on Rogue one and the Eddie, the Hero's Journey versus sort of the big collective. All that you can find by going to the Ethical Panda

dot com. There also you'll find all the ways to support this podcast through our Patreon and other things like that, and most importantly, the ways to give us feedback. Love to continue the conversation with y'all. What did you all think of this season of Shadow and Bone and the books and how it all connected? Find us an email, Twitter, TikTok, all those things. So I'm so on behalf of myself and Becky thank you all so much. We have spoken