Hello, Welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we are going back to a childhood favorite of a lot of us, Willow, and talking about the TV show now that it is finished. It'll be myself, Ashley, Katie and Mark right after our commercial break that we have no control over. Welcome back this as Matthew your host. Any of you listened to the episode about the Willow movie we put up about six weeks ago, I've got the same crew back with me. First Office, Ashley Coffin from the MCU cast.
Fame Ashley. How are we doing today? I'm great, I'm great, you know, just a good old Thursday. Glad to be talking about this show. Super super excited. Yeah, I think we're gonna have a pretty well I would say we're gonna have a wide range of opinions. I think we're actually fairly close in some of our opinions from we'll get into that into the second. Mark, you're not as well known. You want to say a bit about yourself as you welcome We Welcome to the show. Hi.
I'm Mark Arcusha. I'm a actor, voice actor, UM, podcaster and old school Willow fan. UM I mean or Willow Willow fan. From way back. I should say, I don't want to. I don't want to just come out. I'm an old school Willow fan. I'm not like you, like who to go to about Willow any questions? You know? Yeah, thank you, I've I've put a lot of time of Willow. That's right. Yeah. When everybody else in high school was was, you know, doing like talking to girls, I was focusing on a ten year
old movie at the time, Where is terres lead? Yeah that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And miss Brennan say hello, Sam worried about yourself? Um, Hello, I'm Katie Brennan. I am Supreme Leader, Ash's best friend and confidant. It's true. I also am a podcaster, really active in the tabletop role playing more old I also by day I am a strategic analytics consultant. And yeah, I'm into a lot of nerdy stuff
and also a way back Willow fan. Nice nice. Yeah. As I said before on the last episode, I'm also someone who fell in love with Willow as a child. I really loved it, but I didn't really keep up with it the way some other folks did. I probably watched it once or twice and then, but had really happy memories of it, watched it again as an adult. All those happy members came back and then turned on the show. And so let's start with our thoughts about the show. Mark
won't kick us off. We're gonna start letting each person kind of give a general overview. People can respond and comment a bit, and I'll go to the next person, and then we can dive into some of the specific things from the show. Okay, all right, Um, So for me, generally speaking, there was things I liked about the show and things I didn't like about the show, which I guess is you can say that about anything. But one thing that like kind of has stood out to me about this
show is that it's it's kind of disjointed. Um. In in the Dungeons and Dragons slash tabletop role playing world, we have a thing called Session zero where everyone gets together and says, like, before the game starts, you know, before a campaign starts, you get together and you say, like,
Okay, so what's what's the tone of this game gonna be? Like we're gonna are we going like the Witcher, Are we going like like dark fantasy, like serious dark fantasy, or are we doing like slapstick comedy, right, Yeah, And you know, it just kind of feels like they did not have a session zero for this show. It feels like the kind of Dungeons and Dragons game where you come in here like, oh, what's your character? Oh, I'm a I'm a questing knight who is looking for
my lost brother. And who are you? I'm a cowboy who hunts werewolves? Okay, who are you? I'm an astronaut who crashed. And it's just like it just doesn't feel like there's a like a through line in the show. But you know, having said that, there was a lot of stuff I liked about the show. Nice Katie, Okay. Um, So I will say that I was able to enjoy the show for the first few episodes. I was able to just have fun watching it. And I agree
with everything Mark said. Um, but you know, I kind of had I think it was the member very effect, I guess in the beginning, with the nostalgia and seeing what they were going to do in the new characters. And um, I actually really enjoy some of the actors, Like I'm really like I really like the actors who played Kit. I like the guy who plays Burman. UM really like also he's I think he's very sexy. Um he kept doing them with his voice that was there's some crazy the entire
time. You know, I like a Rakish rogue. I really like a Rakish rogue. And so he kind of added that mad Martigan thing and so had I had a really good time through the first four episodes, even though there were some things I didn't like, and then it kind of went down for me. I totally agree about the lack of ARC. I think it's like, what I loved so much about the Willow movie in the eighties was that it was this fun fantasy adventure movie and also there was like a little
love story in there. This was like love stories on overdrive, set to like a subtle backdrop of fantasy adventure, you know, just like they spent they paid their biggest writers to write the love scenes, the one on one love scenes, and then they're like interns wrote the story plot of ARC. Like that's kind of how I feel about it. So it was disappointing in a lot of ways. And then I'm sure we'll get into this more. But sort of how they treated who Willow became and the relationship between him and
Laura really bugged me. Just there was a lot of little things that I didn't like, and then there were some things that I did. You know, it was it was a show. It was definitely a show that watched. We watched that one episode together, and that is true. It was
eight episodes of television. Eight actually, okay, how to articulate that not every show is made for every person, and this show was a hundred percent not made for me, And it came with the guys that it was, which is why I'm so hurt, because I thought it was gonna be well and there the things that could have been good for it for me just got so overshadowed by everything else that was going on. For someone who's as picky about costumes and hair and dialogue as I am, they were running around in
jean jackets with zippers and everybody had highlights and I couldn't. And the dialogue, oh, the just like hey, new girl, where are you at? Or all that, like nobody would like can I have a little fantasy dialogue in my fantasy show here? And the jokes that would try to break up the like tense stuff, nothing hit. So it was like that episode I was watching with Katie you would get like you brought Christian Slater in. How could I not be like, oh my god, it's Christian Slater.
Within two seconds they did, the trolls opened their mouths and started talking like, oh hey, what's up. And I was like, right, I'm gonna flip this table. I am gonna flip this table. I had to leave the room so many times during this show, like I would just get up and walk out. So if you liked it, I'm really sorry, but oh god, I just there was a chore to get through this for me. The music or music, Oh my god. He was like,
what there we go? If they you had a score, a beautiful, perfect score laid in front of you that you could have used the entire time over and over again, and tricked me that I loved what was going on because I loved the music. The last episode there was like one line from the original Willow team and I'm like, oh, here it is, and then it was gone. That was good. I've never been so disappointed to
hear dire straits. But they were building something interesting at the very end with great end meeting the worm who's this beautiful woman and their slow reveal that she she has this huge army behind her, and I heard the first few bars of money for Nothing, a song I know so well, and I was like, no, no, don't, don't give that to me because I
actually am being moved by this moment. And then the guitar riff and you could do you know that song is like wait is this and then it's like bloom, like no, no, no, no no, and then it was yeah, it sucks because like that d D the couple first few notes are like kind of cool and like fit that moment really well. But then
it like I got a job selling refrigerators and microwaves and dvsmit. I was gonna say, actually, I'm glad you saved it, because the first thing I was going to say was it tells you something about how many bad things they were in a show. From Ashley's perspective that actually, who loves talking about the scores of movies? It was terrible play let's play some modern music at the end of every episode. But okay, here we'll just hear me out. Let's have a terrible cover of it. Yeah, like coffee Shop
Chick. Yeah, the last one I think was an original, And I did like the cover of I'm on fire. So here's kind of my overall thoughts on it, and then we can break it start breaking down. I've had this experience with other things as well, Like I think there's a very good movie out there that has Sean Connery as a king. I love Richard Gere as a knight, and they're both in love with the same move woman. I think if I just think about it in those terms, it is
a wonderful movie. If I think about it as a King Arthur story, which the movie First Night claims to be, I hate it. And I think like, if this had been marketed to me as a gen Z take on eighties fantasy that was going to be somewhat satire and somewhat poking fun at it and also have i will say, some of the best queer representation in fantasy genre that I've ever seen, I would be like cool, kind of
like Ashley, this isn't for me, but I'm glad it exists. I had fun watching it, and I'm going to enjoy hearing young people talk about it because one thing I've done is I'm scouring kind of TikTok and Twitter and things like that, and there is a large number of people who absolutely love the show, and as far as I can, talent's mostly queer kids who are twenty five and under. But it did not feel like Willow to me, and the slightest it felt like people who either on some level we're kind
of wanting to make fun of Willow or just didn't get Willow. And again, like, you know, we all might sound like we're grup the old fogies on this, and that's fine, And I think I think in a couple of years maybe or a couple of months, I I watched again and just divorced it from Willow in my head at all, and then I might enjoy it some more, even though a lot of parts are going to make
me roll my eyes, like it's never gonna be my favorite. But I kind of feel like if they had just made this, if they just made it not connected to Willow at all, I would have liked it a lot more. And to that kind of disjointedness you were talking about, Mark, Like, there's other projects that I've seen where the one that I most often comes wrote my mind for me is Fury Road, where it's the same people who made Mad Max and they wanted to tell it as a completely separate story.
But in the studios we're like, why don't we just make it a mad you know, Mad Max sequel, and so they kind of squeezed Mad Max into it, but he's not the focus of the story. I wonder if that happened here. I wonder if someone had a kind of like quirky a little bit all the wall still in music fantasy story they wanted to tell, and you know, people got involved with it and they're like, okay, but what if we make it a Willow story? What if like hey,
you know, uh work Davis wants to do this again? Like it because you're right. It felt like four or five different set of the writers doing totally try. You guys know, from the chat, I was probably the most positive one early on. I really tried, and I was going into it with a greight attitude that like this is not for me, but like you can't get around bad story, bad plot. Like I feel like, you know, the scene where Kit gets like pummeled by that big boulder
or whatever and gets knocked into the water. I feel like that was kind of like me watching the show because I'm like, okay, it has I know there's some problems, but like it has this, and it has this and has this, and then all of a sudden, the trolls start talking, and then that big boulder just knocked me down and I never really recovered from that. The trolls. The trolls, to me was one of the
most like fantasy. No, they could have even reasoned that away by saying the chrome gave them intelligence and language, Like how easy would that have been, But they're like, no, let's just not explain it. We're not going to give you a summary of the show Wikipedia we'll have some of that. And there's a part of the problem I thought is that there's way too many twists and turns to really be able to fully summarize. But for people
have no idea what we're talking about here. Our heroes get captured by trolls. We've seen this before, but they talk as though they're kind of like level, sound like David krem but also mixed in with yeah, like and
it's just there were so many things about the dialogue like that. And it's funny because I like what you said, Katie at the writing, because because all over TikTok, I've just watched so many different videos about that that beautiful scene of Jade confessing her love to Kit and and the two of them getting so close to kissing. Thank god they finally did, and that would beautifully
written like it was wonderful. And then you also have the Grand Sorceress, the one who like isn't indebted to the worm, who's been our enemy since twenty years ago. She's in the middle of the fight and she's something like, you know, take that base at it at the end too, just yeah, I left, I left, I left the room. Yeah, like he's eternal bitch or whatever it is. And I will say you mentioned the like inclusion of these like different you know, different different gender and sexuality
series or categories, which I really like. And actually Jade and Kit I felt had the best chemistry of any of the romances, and I genuinely liked watching them rustle around and make out. If you took that out of the show and made a different show to your eld words, yea and not this though, Oh no, So I I was just gonna say something by saying they had the best chemistry. Do you mean that they had chemistry? Yeah,
they had the only chemistry. Yes, yes, I mean it was like I said this to Ashley today because I actually just finished the last episode today and I was like, it is so infuriating that Graydon is in love with her among all these It's like every single character has to be in love, can't we have? Like the friendship's story between mad Martigan and Willow is the most beautiful thing in the original. It like, hands down for me.
Why does it always have to be a love story? And it's just like, I mean, Mark, you already said like pick a lane, but then it's just like there's no variety at all. Well to double down on that. The whole point of a Laura leaving to go on this quest is because she's so in love Oh my god, Prince Eric. And then two days in she's like, oh maybe I'm gonna flirt and mess this guy's head up completely. I'm like, what are we even doing here? Then?
Where are we going? We know? She's like, we know she's being faked out and he's possessed and she says, I won't marry you, but like that's not him. He's possessed. So you're gonna say, like, I'm not into you anymore. You're creepy, like too, Yeah, she just puts the problems with A Laura Dannon. I think when that Chrome called her out at the end and called her a boop, I was, can go someone finally is that it? M someone said it thinking it,
Yeah, I know, I think that's super fair. And I I did like the friendship between Kit and A Laura, and I thought there was an interesting dynamic there of you know, I'm I'm sad that my father seemed to always be choosing you, which was little like. I liked that point because it's sort of I think she had some legitimate reasons for feeling bitter about that sort of Willow also not choose his child over a Laura. It was a little like, what okay, that's not one of the lessons of the movie
Fair. It was a little too abrupt for me. I would have liked friendship to ease in a little bit more. Nobody was nice to Willow, and they made Willow like I don't know. I was like, I would like to now know exactly what happened in the between years, because it doesn't seem like it was very good. And Willow never became a sorcerer, Like what a what a letdown? But like but also is he. They didn't really explain it because he's doing all that. And by the way, Kaya
died and we're not going to tell you what happened there. Where's the sign? Way, where's the little boy? You went off to do something? Willow never became a sorcerer except he did and he but he also invented a flamethrower and and um, I'm not a sorcerer. I'm just lucky. I'm like, dude, Then, how did you kill all those guys? Up? Yeah, You're like, I'm gonna go kill these guys? How are you? How are you doing all this magic? Yeah? And how did
you like the zippers? Yes? Ashley, thank you for saying that. I lost my mind. Laura, Like it was one thing in the last two episodes when they were doing close ups of her, she had a jean jacket on in a green knit turtleneck and I was like, what is this the Last of Us? The Walking Dead? What am I watching? It could be a scene from anything right now? They got all of their comus from which dot com And I am sorry if that's harsh, but I just came off House of the Dragon, So you got to think of like,
it's so funny. I don't see that. I don't see costumes, Like I just don't know any of it until Ashley tells me, or like the hair, because I'm just like into like the relationships and the dialogue thoughts. I just don't even notice Willow rolled up. I go to everybody, I was like, did Willow just roll up in ash gosh bagosh overalls? I think, ket what you just said. It's so perfect though, because what it like, I'm like you all four of us are noticing different things about
this show, and we're all fighting things. We zippers were invented at like this, like after flight, like after like it was like they weren't used until like the nineteen hundreds, Like yeah, but that's all so like Willow has a flamethrower and I was doing it like a shotgun cape, Yeah, like where was that earlier? But I've got to save it? And yeah, where who was carrying that this whole time? Where did it come from? Where did it go? And like it's funny because this might open of
a whole other can of worms that I'm not trying to go into. But I'm just gonna make this illusion quickly and get a whole bunch of hate mail. As I was watching all the stuff with Willow, I was thinking about the conversations that happened a lot about the last Jedi, and like how there's a lot of people who are like, oh my god, Luke would never do that. How can you do this to Luke? And I was in
my head. I was like, on the one hand, I now get where they're coming from, even though I still think they're wrong, But also was like, what you think Luke had character assassination? What about my boy? Willow? Willow had source sho was being all me and I was like,
what is happening well? And like the dynamic between him and Laura bothered me because it's like, on one hand, him turning into a cantankerous sorcerer is okay, but I think he needs to be very good if he's going to be like a like grumpy sorcerer, because he know, young kids today they just don't follow the guidelines, you know. But it's not like that. And she's kind of a bitch to him, and he's not very nurturing to her, and it's not very enjoyable to watch them progress. And then
all of a sudden, she goes for being terrible to like superpower. Yeah, and then like the dynamic switched from her being horrible with Willow to her not kid um, what's Jade? Wait, who's the red j anyway, mad Martigan's daughter. They were just horrible, and then she was just continuously made her for like two episodes, and I'm like, I can't wait for
this crone to take her out. I just can't wait. Yeah, I think the show helped me actually realize one thing I really liked about the movie, which is that, in general, I don't like Chosen One plots because
I think they're a little bit boring. You don't really understand why is it that this character is opposed to everyone else is like the great One and so worthy in all this, And the movie of Willow actually kind of subverts the Chosen One idea because in the movie, all they are doing is protecting her, protecting her potential for the future or the idea that she could be this
tool to be used. But in the end, like the Baby doesn't really do much, and when Willow like saves the day with a great like final act, it's this act of like, you know, Showman magic, not actual magic. In a way, that's brilliant and trickery, and we saw none of that from Willow. We saw none of that sort of inventiveness and cleverness and instead and like instead, we just saw so much from the other
characters, you know, all of them doing awesome things. But yeah, Laura is just supposed to be this great wizard because because yeah, Ashley and I were watching a couple of the episodes together and I kept being like, oh, that's from the Hobbit, Like that's you know, like there it
was so derivative of so many different other stories. And then like at the last episode, it was very Harry Potter, you know, like when they're doing this the girl who lived come to die and then they even had the like bread and green energy and I'm like seriously and kept through expect the paternal mane, and we were dested. It's exactly yeah, And I like I kept waiting for them to be that moment of like some trick or something.
It was just doing that we're both shooting both to each other body and then she kept her face. That's like I was like, well, she kept doing the lookdown and then look up, and then when she looks up, you know, she's getting She's like, I'm gonna just stick to you to death. And I was like, what's happening? How does the magic work? Like we spent six episodes of Laura trying to learn magic words and say them right, and then we don't need to say magic words anymore. Graydon
can one shot either. He's never cast a spell before, but he one shots one of the like most powerful beings on the planet out of the air and it explodes, and then it's just like everyone's just finger gunning the magic at each other from now on. She's like, it was like, you got me, you know you didn't I have a force field, you know, I like to find me. Grayson used magic. I was like, wait a minute, what when did when did we learn that? He was? I know me too. I'm like, wait, he's time. I
was like when. I don't think I've been watching the show at all, but I will say the number one thing on the list of things I did not need was a nickname for Matt Martigan. No, he's not mad. I'm sorry, guys, that's the worst part of the show. Okay, that's number one for me. Do you wonder my understanding is that this is a project that people have been kicked They should have kicked it around a little
more time. And I do well also true, I do wonder if there was some version in which, because Val Kilmer's surgery and all that, I think it was fairly recent, like the last three or four years. Um, but I wonder if there was some version of which they thought they would be able to have mad Martigan, you know, as a like they find him in that final dungeon and they'll Kilmer's on for half an episode or something
like that. Um, I don't even know how they got very similar tothing we meant to say on the last episode is, um U should go watch Val Kilmer's documentary on I believe it's Amazon Prime. Yeah, it's very good. It's about everything he's going through right now, and you know, it's very it's hard to watch, but I think it's very important if expressive. You're a fan of him. But his son does a lot of voice work
for him, and he narrates, Oh, that's awesome. That reminds me of something else I wanted to say last time, and I forgot when we were talking about the dragon the eber Cisk is that this is just so funny because if you're a George Lucas Lucas films fan, like you know that George Lucas is crazy and he's got a lot of ideas that need to be like
brought back. Originally he wanted that dragon to have fifteen heads, and that's what he went to Phil tip it about and feels like, how about Yeah, I just thought that was so George Lucas, and like, I have a positive thing about the movie that I'm gonna get to try to jump in with earlier, but just on that dragon creature, you know, we all
poked fun at like that. The CGI is not great in the original, but in that regard, it's charming, Like it makes it kind of like a fun part of the movie, even though it's because it's the kind of
movie that we love and we love to poke fun at. And so when at the very end they show you, like, you know, the hordes of enemies that the worm has, which I have some thoughts as the person wh plays Vampire the Masquerade, but that's a whole other story and we're all the Apocalypse, and so there's just a very clearly CGI version of that dragon in the background, looking just like a cool dragon. I was like, no, like give it to us with the cheesy effects. I don't give
it to us. Make something else. I don't know why that bothered me, but again it was just like and then like they're all leaving and they're like, well, isn't isn't that dragon technically like still down there shown, we just go kill it right now, and they're like, nay, it'll come for us. Yeah, look, I have too many other things to worrying about right now. And how many how many group shots of them looking away from the camera doing any million? I feel like it was like eight
times per episodes many love stories stories. Yeah, yeah, I will say I kind of like grating in A Laura because the idea that I got from it. First of all, I just found Grayden to be a really charming character. He was one of my favorite characters that felt very I was excited that they killed him because that was like make it matter. It would make
it matter. Sorry. Well, and here's the thing is that for me, I thought part of what they were trying to tell a story of is that, you know, a Laura never had actual serious feelings with the prince.
She had, you know, basically young girl who's dating a celebrity like young could be a person of any gender, but you know, also just combined with like you had your first two dates and some great makeout sessions and some one or two interesting conversations, and you're nineteen years old and you think that you found the absolute love of your life. And so, in my mind actually bothered me that that she started to go for Graydon and I thought
they had some really nice chemistry and connection. Um, And so I did like that part. I think where when though they got to the brother and it was a whole Like she even says it when points Kit asks her, like did you not marry him because he's possessed or because he's a little naive? Like, and that kind of goes you were saying before, Katie.
Like, on the one hand, her growth could be that she's rejecting the prince who she was with before, who she thought was amazing, and he didn't even remember her name because to him, she's just you know, the girl of the week or the day. Um. So yeah, I liked their story. I liked where it went. If someone has to get you know, killed off in a romance, I'm really glad it wasn't in the
queer romance. But I also was pretty unhappy with where they where they wound up with it, because I thought once they did the whole like he turns evil thing and then all of a sudden he's a magician. And I don't think it was that he turned to evil or that it was naive or that he was naive. I think it was that he cut his hair because he had with the long hair. I agree, M yeah, that's fair too.
And they even gave they even harassed him about it. Yeah, when they all just drugs in that episode and they played Clemson and over terrible covery, Yeah for the kids, I was like, what is going on? Like, sorry, go ahead? Was it just me or did the because so here was my story with the show. I don't know. Like I watched the first like use Katie, I watched the first couple of episodes.
It was. It was definitely into it, was enjoying it, rolling my eyes at some things, and got to the fourth episode and remembered that I didn't want to binge it all now because well, actually know I got the fourth episode and that was all there was, and I was like, I want more. And then we all started talking and kind of trading about all the things you didn't like, and I was like, oh, yep,
that's that's true. That's fair, that's fair. And then like I had like a week of not thinking about it, and I went back to start binging the last three episodes last last starting last night, and then finishing today. An episode five is really rough, Like I think it's the worst episode by far, and so coming back to that, Okay, I think that is the Crimson Clover episode. You know, there's just it was just like, oh, and there was a bunch of very unachronistic kind of things that
they were saying in the episode. It was just rough, and it was just like I don't think I had noticed how off the music at the end we had been in part maybe because I don't think it was happening. It was often happening, like in the last few moments and then the credits recovers and it was done, and making Shade Kale's daughter like, we don't have to keep doing that. We don't have to. Everybody is related to everybody
from the first movie. Everybody. Everybody has a weird, dark backstory that we have to keep track of, right and Kale General Kale, who in the movie is admittedly not super flesh. He's mysterious. He's the Bulba Fette of the first movie. But then thank You I just came up with I think it is pretty good. But he's like, he's like this brilliant je role. He's like the super badass. And then it's like he's the first of these frigging bone barbarian guys. Why why how does that make sense?
If he was the first he I mean he died pretty quickly so and in the service of the queen. So when did he have time to go start this bone brigade? I don't know. Yeah, I guess every town when he went to looking for that baby, he was making his own babies. If he nobody got turned into an animal, nobody got turned into pigs. There was no talking, I know. That's what I think. That's what
bought me out the most. Magic wasn't cool. It wasn't like in the in the movie, like with Willow really struggling and he was just so likable and innocent and you really were rooting for him, and it just it just didn't have that and like just to not I don't want to harp too much on the grade and the Laura thing, but like, there's a way they could have done that. Maybe that I would have liked it, but the
fact that he was seemingly in love with her right away bothered me. Like what if they had just really become friends, he's an unlike will never get done anymore. And that's what I would have liked to see it right there. Friendships are great, and maybe they could have hinted at a possible like
romance later, but there's no nuance. There's no subtlety. It's like, oh, you're amazing, and she's like, oh, yeah, that's weird because like we're going to save my boyfriend, you know, like and then the whole time I just feel awkward about it, like he was just this love struck puppy that she had no interest in. And then all of a sudden, you're like, does she they have no chemistry? Like they could have made that like a fun friendship that could have been making you go maybe,
but they just there's no subtlety. Yeah, I didn't see it from a Laura's side until Willow was like, you have to use your conflicted emotions about Graydon. You have to embrace that, Oh, you're never going to become a Sorceress's right, And then they're like, yeah, he's powerful because he's got angst. This is a pretty power of thanks. And his backstory was just too much like we had like make him a simple character. He
doesn't have the bat possessed. I killed my brother and then I possessed again, and then you got to get it. I'm like, wait a minute, just haven't be possessed? No, ga, that was fine. Yeah, yeah, the back especially where I was going before when I talked about them being like with a Laura having her like you know, obsession. He feelings for the prince. You know, he also was in They were both in a similar situation of being like pledged to people. They really weren't actually
that interested in it. He mean more so with his forced marriage. You kind of have talked to me out of liking it, Like I say, I know, it's fine, I know, I'm sorry, don't do that. You stick to your guns. Well, even he the second he met the Crone as as Chick from in her gown from David Bridles Prom Queen section, Yes, or what the heck was that? That was a prom dress from nineteen ninety seven. It had the lace with the things on it and the pleats in the front. I feel it within to be honest, I
feel like i'd wear that. I'd wear it too, like that dress I thought it was, but yeah, it doesn't fit the Evil Fantasy Drive. Here's what I think happened there. And I also, yeah, it's not that I still like the idea of the two of them, but I think I agree with you, Katie, it could have been much better done.
Agree with everybody there. I think what Katie said about the writers also happened with the costuming because every dot about ninety percent of the costuming budget went to putting Kit in this incredibly badass set of armor that goes on her Iron Man style, which makes no sense for the technology of the day, but sure it's magic whatever. It looked amazing, and every time it was really cool.
But I also kind of felt like that was anticlimactic because they built this thing up this whole time and then like, oh, yeah, it looks really cool. She gets to be the WY two. Now we have two number one, and that's all she ever wanted. And I was like, oh, everybody gets a trophy the most protective armor in the world doesn't have a helmet. It doesn't need a helmet mark. It's like it's the helmet
is invisible. Why does it need anything? Then? Look, all I'm going to say is the look that Jade gives her is so perfect when she's in that like, because she looks damn good. I do like them. I think they're I would watch I would read a fan fick about them. I wouldn't watch like a little, you know, short film about them. I thought their chemistry was great, and I really like that actress who plays Kid. I think she's funny. I think her timing is good. I
could see her doing really well in the future of her career. I could not see past the highlights. I didn't even see. I didn't even notice them until you told so let's connect take two seconds. The hair everyone had highlights. A Laura Danon was just like I have one streak of bread, and then in the next episode her entire hair was red. I guess it was your magic urn. You could have done it over eight episodes is slowly change it, not one lock, and then be like surprised and no one
acknowledged it. Like I was wondering like nots like, oh I like your hair. God, I wondered if I'd forgot. She was like, I like it blind because it's funny. How like, because there's so much being thrown at you, a lot of which doesn't make sense. I totally forgot and we just talked about it. Now that they had made a big deal about that suit of armor, I thought it totally came out of nowhere, which oh yeah, there's just too many things to focus. Kept stabbing him,
say that's what Mad Martigan was. After they were like, there was some fighting between Christian Slater and Boorman, and I kind of wish Christian Slater would have hung out for a little while. Yeah he's cool, yeah, yeah, but that was like bringing my ultimate fantasy men together because at that time I was in love with Mad Martigan and I was in love with Robin Hood's all me. He was so high Rod. You know what I think about Will Will right? Yeah, remember when um Heaven Customer like flies in
the catapult or whatever, and He's like, f me cleared it. It was just I'm like, oh, I get he said your bad boy. I was like, I want him to be my boyfriend. Actually, I gotta say I am deeply surprised because as someone who ran with a lot of goth type people was myself and there's yeah, that's like, wait, Heather,
isn't what you think of Christians Later is? Because that's the one where all the women in my generation I'm a nerd, I'm also a nerd, so I will take them at their gothy, but I will take the pumpkin pants and cod piece as well. I will not kick that out of bad man. I was very happy to see Christians Later as well. I was also very obsessed with him as a child. I remember renting the movie Cuffs
from Blockbuster. Um, but the fact that he was like I talked in the in the movie episode about how cool the names were and his name was Alagash like that that it's like a I just kept things a year. Yeah, it's a brewery that's named after like a Native American word, Like why is this guy named Alagash? That's just I don't know. I mean, if somebody was drunk on white Ale that day, And if we want to talk about names, can we mention the fact that we've all these gorgeous very
like Welsh Elvin kind of set old English kind of sounding place names. And then one of the areas that there's great conflict over is just called Cashmir, which it's spelled a little different and it's pronounced a little bit different, but basically sounds exactly like the region that Indian Pakistan have been fighting over for the last fifty years. I know that was so bizarre, too weird. Back to Christians later though, like, what do you mean he was locked in
that cage for twenty years? And that didn't make sense at all. So you're capturing people to turn them into this goo that you need to just hang out and continue trolls, But why would you keep him? Then? Yeah, just him for twenty years? Totally fine, healthier. He did not look like emaciated and under fed. He ate. Yeah, those trolls were so like I remember when like they showed they teased the trolls in the one episode before they came out and saw you saw them full blown in the in
the next episode. I was like, oh, the trolls have like armor and weapons and stuff. I was like, all right, I guess they're they're smart trolls. Whatever. Fine, they're different trolls. These are like gray trolls as opposed to the Black Trolls, and then they came out yeah with the clipboard. It was like, oh hi guys, yes, No, we were like, what the hell this is silly? I was like,
Katie, I am going to flip. I know. You know what it reminded me of is at the end of Spaceballs when they do that Planet of the Ape spoof and they're on the beach. He's like, oh, no, Spaceballs there, I go to the neighborhood or whatever it is. That's exactly what I thought was actually in terms of the pacing of a show, Like I said, I would like it a lot more if it wasn't
well connected, I still wouldn't love it. Like they have two episodes in which our heroes get captured and held as prisoners for a while, and they were back to back, and it just felt like that of the pacing of a show doing that twice in a row and both times having it be like kind of comedic people who are doing it. Can we talk about the round robin back to back with Kit and a Laura in the last episode where they're
like you want to take this one? Yeah, and they keeps turning around, you know, to talk about Yeah, nobody would walk into anywhere like that. You don't mean to guard her back. There's like a zillion bad guys. Just turn around and talk to your brother at the same time, like that was to take this one and going back to what um, going back to what I actually was saying about, like how Kit had to be
again her own version of the Chosen One. As much as I loved her in the armor, and I was like, I watched Jade look at her, and I was like, Okay, that's an instant meme. That's awesome. Glad again and we need you know, gen Z queer representation got it. Part of what the story had told us is that Jade is the better fighter, and that Jade is the one who has been holding back the whole
time in order to protect because the Queen had told her not too. So she shouldn't have been Jade who wins that great badass fight, in part because the whole point is that like, like Kit has promised to protect a Laura, and Jade has promised to protect a Kit, and so like I thought about that too. I loved watching it, but I was like, what was the point of her not being as good if then at the end Jade
just like watch she needed her trophy. Yeah, and you know, um so right when when Kit was having all these like doubts and whatever, her father's voice came to her. It was like, you have always been You're better than me, You've always been everything. And where the where the where the bleep was that voice when his son was getting seduced by the chrome?
Do you care about Eric? I guess not. Maybe there's any other angsty movie with like med Martigan and Eric and they like have a falling out and somehow like we figure out what their backstory was via that makes zero sense too. Yeah. And then the fact that Kit and a Laura had that long drawn out conversation in this room that's like lava ish, I'm like, get out of there. What are you doing? Stop it? I um oh sorry good, I'll just say no, I'm done. I'm trying to think
of some good things guys, because we should do our three. Yes. I was saying, we need to say I have to say good things for like thirty seconds. I want to say good thing. I've said some four and I want to do that. The three things we can all say are two or one. In Ashley's case um, but let me just rag on one more way, because I agree two of the themes that I thought they shut up that could have been so interesting and then they just dropped into cliche
land. One is this idea of because you have it with both Willow and men Martigan, of what does it do to your family when you feel this need to go off on all these great adventures, you know, and like the idea of kid feeling left behind, and of a Willow feeling like he's left his daughter behind, and that as he said, like he's a throwaway line, but you know, apparently his wife died because he wasn't there to
help fight for her when he was off on an adventure. And then its sun left because of that, Like we got there's a throwaway line that's such a great mirror to kids feelings and the Sun's feelings. We got none of
that. And then again for me, the name the Worm conjures up the kind of villainous force of nature of the Wirewolf, The Apocalypse and Vampire the mass Gerade role playing games, where in some of those later books they actually made it a lot more like it's not evil, it's just the force of like death and decay and breaking things down so they can then later be rebuilt,
and there's all this great philosophical stuff about it. And so when they told us like, no, no, the worm has a point, I was ready for them to be like I wanted them to somewhat convince me that maybe there was a reason to back the worm, you know, like to be like I wanted to understand why our characters were tempted by it, and instead it was just such classic like, oh, you can not have to deal with the stuff. The brother is clearly an idiot. That's like,
it was just they had so much potential and it was so dull. Yeah.
I think that that goes to like the villains in general, you know, like in the in the movie, we start off with bav Morda, Sorcia, and Kale, and we're introduced to these characters and they're cool and they're dynamic, and we like the whole thing is like with bav Morda, but then like if we know she wants the kid, she wants to kill the kid because the kids the only one who can you know, bring her down what and well, you know, in the first episode, we were
introduced to the Gails we're like cool and creepy and oh man, these are wow, these are really cool bad guys. Does anyone remember any of their names? Or like what the point of them was? Now? And what is the Okay, the Krone is working for the worm. They also want
to Laura. What is the worm want? I don't know, Like if a Laura is in danger, she goes on this quest even though she probably should stay home locked in a bunker to save her from the chrome, but she goes to be with Eric and then she dumps him, so like you probably should have just stayed home, girl, Like right, what's good point? Yeah? Oh boy? All right, So as you all were suggesting, let's let's talk about some positives. We can then go back to ragging
hunted or start wrapping this up. Either way it's fine. Um, but let me just let me um. I've said some things. I definitely come up more, but Katie, let me start with you. So what are what are three of the positive things from the show back for you? Well? Okay, and I might be repeating myself a little bit, but Boorman hot, yes, it really he's not your typical like I guess, like
sex symbol. You don't see a lot of like characters like that, but he's because he's kind of you know, well, I guess you kind of do. Like he's a bad boy, like girls like bad boys, but he's good looking. We don't we don't see a lot of characters that are fit that physically look like him. I think he's very sexy, and I think he's a good actor. I had not seen him in anything before.
I enjoyed his character and I would like to see more from him, maybe with a little more depth going forward, But yes, I like him. I think that the actors in general are charismatic and fun. I think they did a good job with what they had to work with, and I think that's part of what drew me in in the beginning, because for me, characters and character development is like the biggest, I guess thing, And so
I enjoyed watching them until I really felt like the story degraded. But I thought I thought they were They're charismatic and they kind of helped carry and otherwise, you know, a bad story. And then I guess the other thing that I really did like was that they they did pepper in things that were nostalgic from me, Like I know, they were few and far between, like with the music, but you know they got in the snowball like reference at the end. And like the episode four, I thought I had a
lot of fun noessalgia. I enjoyed watching that one. There's a lot of flashbacky type stuff, so I was able to enjoy I guess some of the memories that some of the episodes brought up. And I loved seeing Sorcia. I still think she's hot, Yes, yes, yeah, I would definitely echo for me the first really positive thing I would talk about as Borman, because yeah, I love a bad boy too, and I thought he was kind of a fun new take on the bad boy um age just because you
know, as a man of color, that was great to see. Um, he's I don't know where this comes from, but there's a term that I've heard used to describe Lando Calrisian as sexually omnivorous. You know that he's just happy to have a little bit of everything, and that was born into a t you know. And ye too, he flirts with everyone, you know, with Grayden and a Laura. He's like, you all want to make out like he doesn't care which one. Um, he's not the like
I need to be in control of everything. When he's flirting with the Bone Lady, the head of that group, you know, she says tie him up, and he's like, this sounds like fun. You know, he doesn't need to be in control, like and he was just he he provided some of that levity. He was not as good as Mad Martigan, but like he played that role well and I thought that fit in well. Um,
I've talked a lot about it. Yeah. It also made me really realize, like it's all teams and then you have this grown up hope that you're like, okay, yeah, one adult in the rest of the well and obviously work, but like we already knew him, which now you say that I don't love as much as offered to make out with two of them, but still, you know, yeah right, I bet if we looked it up there in their twenty I think it's the actors are but I think
the characters are supposing yeah, woman, then maybe he's supposed to be nineteen, what's the what's the age of consent zero? I think they're supposed to be Actually, um, but it's just like Ohio, not just gonna Hey, there is one place in America that one of the states that it is like you can marry some of them, whatever age, as long as the parent I knew it was one of the oas um. Second, I've talked
a lot about the queer romance and how good I thought it was. One thing I think that it's worth mentioning about that is that you rarely see that in fantasy, especially two women, and when you do, one of them is generally very fem coated. Like generally it is like one of them is kind the one who wants to be a soldier, and the other one is like the prince as the kind of a sans to start, kind of a
princess. So having to be two women knights, like just just two women knights, whatever their sexuality, but having them be into each other and like, at least on my part of TikTok, the idea of like sword fight as flirtation has become a big thing, and so watching that among the two of them was really fun. And yeah, I liked that too. That's always been a right and it's not started on too, I'm sure, but it's have to bring it back for the eighties fair enough stord fight movies.
But no, you're right, it's like they're both strong fighters. There's not a lot of like skin showing or anything like that. They're not wearing makeup, you know, and they're both super sexy and their relationship is fun to watch. Yeah that. Did anybody else get thrown that you thought at the beginning that Jade was a Laura Dunning? I did, Yes, I wondered
about that. Yeah, having read I was just like, I don't remember how like, yeah, that's oh yep, And I'm gonna say I also just loved Jade, especially because I love that actress, because she was the one who played the leader of the flag Smashers and falcon with a soldier who I had been a brilliant character and it'd been totally let down by the end of that series, and so getting to see her again, I was just like, Okay, this is cool because I think I agree with what you
were saying, Katie. I thought all the acting, not all the acting choices are directorial choices ones I agreed with, But I thought all the actors were doing a good job. Um, they were doing what they could with the terrible Yeah, they were charismatic and fun to watch and like as an ensemble. Yeah, like it could have been that, it could have been
real cool. Yeah, and that's why I can say, like, I think this hadn't had the name Willow on it, and it had just been like set in its own world and its own thing where they were going to play with diet. I'm not going to go that far, Matthew. I'm not saying I would love it. I'm saying I would watch it once and enjoy it, and probably watched that and I knew what I was going into.
Yeah, Willowdale, Willowdale. There you go, There you go, Willowdale, Thursdays at seven on the scene that look you mentioned this up next week on the WB I'm currently been Vampire Diaries because I love me some CW stuff. Okay, are you watching watch Dale? I watched the first season that for some reason, that one, that one felt so tame compared to like Gossip Girl and Vampire Diaries and stuff like, oh no, you gotta
keep watching, Okay, Okay, yeah it trust me. Arch By episode three, Archie is in jail running a underground boxing ring, trying to get everybody off of drugs. It gets really crazy. I remember that in the comics. All right, Actually, actually, can you find something that you liked at the show. I liked the fight sequence in the first episode. I think when they took um Eric, I thought that was really cool and I thought, how dare they didn't misdirect me that the rest wasn't going to
be that cool? Um, because I thought the monster's makeup was really good too, Like the guy that looked like the mouth of Saron, he was great. I really liked seeing Knockmore Castle. I mean, the whole episode wasn't great, but just the castle was great. I was like, I know that castle and Kale and stuff being in there, so that was fun. So I was that episode four? Yeah, I think so, yeah, okay, yeah, Um, I liked zombie mim Oh yeah, Ashley, you saw three things? Yes, I did it. I did it.
Congrat I like it, Mark Um you know. I I also really liked the fact that there was you know, that there was inclusivity and um representation in this show. I I also loved the you know, the romance between Kit and Jade and um, I loved it. It just it wasn't all white people. Um And yeah, I like those things too, Just to throw that out there. Yeah, sorry, sorry, I was going
with actual what was zombie zombie miss it's fine. Yeah, no, no, I considered not saying that just or having that not count because it's already even said. But I think there's gonna be some repetition here and what we liked, um, but yeah, to build up what you said, Actually, the nostalgia, the fan service, uh, some of the fan service. I really liked, you know, seeing sorce show with her sword and seeing Knockmark Castle. Um. When when the fan service was good, it
was good. When it was bad, it was bad. Um. Sometimes it kind of just felt like here here, Millennial, here you go, I know, you go. We just can't This show was not made for me. And and I really thought that the Shattered Sea was a cool thing. That was a cool until the waterfall. Yeah, yeah, I got it's you I liked. I liked that that was like a practical thing. Yes, the money was Yeah, that was really cute. I like Grayden's connection with that that thing. I like the world but this was much one
of the first couple episodes. But I appreciated the world building, like I felt we were getting to have more of the world explored. I think then I got very frustrated towards the end because we didn't. It didn't feel like
I get paid off in good ways. But yeah, because because nothing mattered until like Graydon died, I was like, oh good, we're gonna get a death that matters, like and it made her discover her power and all of that makes sense, right, But then I was still that moment like, oh, they have no idea able to do with him now, so
let's just kill him. Yeah, kill him. But like up until that point, like people have been dying, like you know, uh, Christians later conceivably was hacked to pieces by those trolls and was just like na. But what we did see in the second episode was the old man who was like, I raised Eck from the time he was a baby. He's the
closest thing I have to a son. I will go with you. And then eight minutes later he gets an arrow to the sternum from a bone warrior and everyone's just like, let's get out of here and crack jokes while we run away. They never talk about again. They don't give a Laura that horse that nobody's using. I could just know he was like, Hey, what that guy details? Yeah, I had utterly forgotten about that guy.
Because again I was the first couple we like. It's not like a who can be forgiven for that since the characters didn't even remember, not for anything. But his wound didn't even look that bad, Like I feel like they could have saved him. To the post credit scene, it was him like, oh, please come back. I'm not dead yet dead, I'd have some internal bleeding. If you take me back to tars Lane, I'm sure I'll be fine. No, yeah, all right, Well, we're gonna
start wrapping up the regular part of the show for the patrons. We're gonna have a final section where we discussed like we might have made this show if we could have done it in a different way. But I want to go for regular. Listeners, give everyone that kind of what's your last word, one last thing you want to say about the show? Actually want to start. I'm disgusted that there's going to be two more seasons. That's fair. I will leave an open door for you if we cover them, but you
will buy no means to be obligated to watch them. I don't think people would really want me to be on. Well, let the listeners decide. Mark. My final word on the show is it was not great, but it could have been. It came so close. Like there's so many things that have just just could have been fixed with like two lines of dialogue. Or for instance, when Kit found Mad Martigan's sword and it's like, oh, what an awesome, cool moment, and then the sword is completely not
dull. It's like the edges are flat. It's like it's like a clearly like a prop sword. There's no edge on the blade. And I was just like, who's the prop master that let that happen? But and I don't mean to harp on like one particular thing, but there was just all these like little things that just could have been better. And zippers. If they want to bring me in, just bring all four of us in for the second season. Just be like, guys, no, no, do
not put a Nravata song in this episode. Oh yeah, I'm available. I would like to talk about the relationship between Willow and a Laura. Yeah, in the original movie, she's obviously a baby, but they have this innate intuitive connection to each other such that a magical fairy brings the baby back to Willow even when he gives her to a Diachini, and then they go through this whole journey and she's still just a baby, but she loves Willow.
They have this beautiful connection. So then when you're like, hey, I wonder what would happen later in life with them, I just think there was so much beauty that could have been done with this, Like maybe somewhere that innate connection still exists. But now she's a teen and she's been gone for a long time, and so he's battling with maybe the relationship not being what he hoped it would be. I didn't want to see him being so mean to her. I wanted something different. I wanted to feel sad and
happy and confused as they were working out their relationship. But I also wanted there to just be this innate thing, and it wasn't there. And I wish, most of all, out of everything that like that would have been done differently. Yeah, I think, And we'll talk about that more of the Patreon section, and I'll just close by saying again, like I said, I did some research into this. I kind of looked up on like
different social media what people are saying about the movie. On Rotten Tomatoes, it has a fifty one percent like score, and so like half the fans liked it. Half the fans didn't. And there's a lot of people who are gung ho, absolutely in love with the show, and for I was kind of surprised and they realized all of them are gen z um, you know, and that any of the contact I found that was critical of it was almost all people who were like, you know, thirty five and up
um. And I really think that that's the same. I don't want to speak, you know, for everybody by any means, but I Ken didn't like it, and he's thirty three, okay, well still also Ken lives with a very jaded, very cynical older women. Yes, so he's refrected by that. Also true. Um, there's so many comments, yes, and like I think that kind of speaks to what you were saying. Actually, Like it may well be that someone described it as like this is it's
a Disney ya show and it's aimed from much younger audience. And you know, that's kind of how I fault about the prequels. I remember in Star Wars World, and I've come to appreciate a blog part of those. I don't think you wouldn't do that with this show. Um. Oh how about this she was wearing Race Skywalker's outfit. By the end of it, I was like, we were making jokes about that too, They're like, my new name is Laura Dannon. It's a race I like it. I like
it. I just thought it was interesting that it does seem like as a fairly big generational divide, and so certainly in terms of listeners, if you love the show, we'd love to hear from you about it. You can find all the ways to contact us by going to the Ethical Panda dot com. You can also find our patron if you should go to Patreon and look for the Ethical Panda, then it will also be in the show notes. That way, you get to help support the show all the great things we're
trying to do. It's a labor of love, but it does cost some money and some effort in time. Would love to have a little bit your support. You'll get all the great bonus content we're doing and other great things like that, So please check all those things out. All that will be on the show notes. Most importantly, we've had three great guests here, all of whom we're doing great content you should check out as well. So Mark, since you just throw your hands up in the air like you do
care? Why don't you start with where can people find you? Well, you can find me on the cast Eye podcast at cast Eye Podcast where I dungeon Master and and do and play a different tabletop role playing games. You can find me on the ether log um ether log I forget ether log ether ether log um Wow? Maybe cut that either log. You can find me on the ether log okay good. You can find me on the ether log
Um, another actual play podcast. And you can also look for audio books that I have narrated and please buy the ones, buy all of them, but especially by two copies of the ones that I get profit share. There you go. We have links to all these things in the show notes, which means Mark now has just sent me a lot of links. Katie, yes, what about yourself? You can find me at my house at one twenty seven. Oh sorry, I'm on Twitter at Katie oh lady. And
you can also find me on the cast Ipodle podcast. And I do another YouTube actual play various different t TRPGs Carrie Smith on YouTube and it's also called Crossroads Games, and I think that's it. You can also find me in Ashley's house sometimes and just maybe hopefully on here again. Also definitely and Ashley, what was up with a supreme leader of the stranded Panta podcast network.
Oh, you can always find me at the mccast. We are getting ready to start on a big feat of rewatching all of the Infinity Saga from release order from the beginning, to do a different kind of perspective on what we get from these movies now first when we saw them the first time. You can get me talking about things I love on Bill and Ashley's Terror Theater podcast, which being my co host, well Bread breakdown horror movies all the way from A to Z and and you know you'll find me around. You know,
we got Mando coming up. We got some stuff. Definitely, definitely, we will definitely talk to you about getting back on for Mando coverage. When you asked me about shows this year, I was like, I don't I don't even know. And then I was like, oh wait a minute, mandolord, Yeah, we gotta have some Patro Pascal love. Um. Anyway, thank you all so much to all my listeners. If you're not see ground for the bonus content, thank you as much for being listeners.
I would love you to becoming patrons, but you know you don't want to do that. There's so many other great ways you can support the show. Give us a five star review on whatever kind of podcast user thing you use, or just share it with a friend. We love these conversations. Do you have you been talking to people about Willow? You want to bring them into the conversation, whether you loved it, wh you hate it, Send
us feedback, send us thoughts, send this to a friend. It's one of the best ways to help support us and help the network grow, which just help keep the conversation going. So I'm having myself all my great guests. Thank you all so much for listening, and have a great day. Bye bye,