Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics today, as our first episode for twenty twenty three, we're kind of doing a We're gonna be talking about a movie that a lot of you may not have seen, but that it's fundamentally based in a question that's kind of at the heart and soul of everything we do here on Superhero Ethics. We're talking about Dread, not judge dread. We have traded up from Sylvester Stallone to Carl Urban and we're talking
about dystopia. We're talking about the use of force to deal with crime and problems like that, and the idea of fighting for order in a world of chaos, and all the problems that can be in regarding that. Whether you've seen the movie or not seen the movie, there's a lot we can discuss because it's it's really about very universal topics to comic book movies, to superhero
stories, to all the rest of it. So I've managed to get through this entire intro without using any of the bad puns that Paul was probably dreading I would use. So let's go to the commercials. No reaction whatsoever. Oh, I like, you know, gave my best Gerald of you could be Carol Drivia Scare that's good. No, the you know, Okay, that's fair, that's fair. Welcome back a Matthew host. I'm joined by fairly frequent guest mister Paul Hoppy. Paul, how are we doing today?
Doing pretty good? Yeah, I rewatched Dread last night, and I think I had pretty much the same feelings I had about it the first time I saw it. You know, it's a movie about a lone man with a gun and a motorcycle and a helmet, very importantly a helmet against the world. But there's also a blonde who you know, seems to be like, you know, I don't know, it's it's I feel like there's a lot of tropes that it like really leans into and then often kind of pivots away
from. Well, let me give a quick summary of the movie, because a lot of folks may not have seen it or may not remember it, and we're not gonna be talking about the exact details in the movie as much as just kind of the questions that it raises. But the details are important. So the movie is about a dystopia. We're told that most of America
has been irradiated and what's now referred to as the Megalopalypse. The kind of mostly unending metropolitan area that starts to know at Washington, d c. And goes all the way along the Eastern seaboard up to Boston has become in the sort of future post apocalyptic time called Megacity one. It's just this huge city and crime is incredibly rampant. Murder, robbery, sexual assault, all these things are really terrible, and as frequently happens at a time of kind of
just total desperation and like feeling like crime is overwhelming everyone. The government has created a basically they've severely amped up what police can do to deal with it, and there are now these things called judges. And judges are basically hypertrained. They have like all sorts of armor and incredible weapons. I don't think they have superpowers, but they have incredible training and weapons and armor, and they to be judge, jury and executioner. And so their jobs to go
out and to deal with crime. And if a person, you know, they're allowed to use lethal force quite freely to try and stop crime. But most importantly, if they, you know, observe someone committing a crime that fits what is there that this society standard for lethal violence. They are allowed to deliver an execution, a death sentence, right there on the spot. And on the one hand, they have to be very sure, so like when a psychic is thinks that something had happened, she says with certainty,
they still won't do it. But it does seem to be a thing of like if I saw it with mown eyes, then I know what happened without the sort of like let's investigate for context kind of the stuff. And we can get into those details in a bit. But but it's very much about a dystopian society where all this is happening. And then kind of funny, give what Paul and I have been talking about on other podcasts, because we've been saying, like it'd be kind of nice to have a movie where there
isn't some great plot arc by the hero. There isn't some like major, like world changing event. It's kind of just a day in the life. That's really what this movie is. Our heroes. Our heroes is a loaded
term which will definitely discuss as well our protagonists. Yeah, who is dread Who's the Carl Urban character who keeps his helmet on the entire movie, I think really kind of like I have a sort of like, you know, Carl Urban grunted so that Pedro Pascal could tilt his head, you know, like, yes, there's definitely a like, okay, Urban really did it pretty well. And but he's paired with it. It's a training day kind
of a movie. He's paired with a rookie cop. It's her day to kind of see if she can be a judge or she's gonna get kicked out of the program. She's young, she's blonde, she's pretty, and she doesn't a helmet because it interferes with her psychic abilities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's the reason, you know nothing at all, fair enough. And yeah, she's a mutant, which the don't really explain
much but is a thing in the movie. And basically they go in to deal with a problem is happening and they realize they're actually dealing with one of the foremost drug gangs in the world. And it was very much of the Wire kind of like if you have watched the first couple at Seasons of the Wire and you know all about like the towers, like Marlo Stanfield is watching the criminals in this and like applauding and being like, you have the right
idea, because they figure out the judges are they are. They figure out the judges have captured a witness who could bring the whole thing down. Who is Avon Barksdale for the record, Yeah, yeah, very much though no, I mean literally that's what Harris Siegan Literally, that's Wood Harris, the actor who played Avon Barksdale. Oh yeah, yeah, very good point, very good point. That that's I hadn't even connected that. And so they
shut down the whole sort of tower. It's like a you know, a set of buildings that holds like thousands of peep tens of thousands of people. And then the whole movie is just our protagonists trying to both escape and or stay alive and or capture and take down this criminal gang that's that's doing all
these terrible things. And so here's my question, Paul when I finished watching the movie, because this movie, Paul has been trying to get me to watch for a long time, and I enjoyed it, but I had to run of those movies where I'm like, I don't know if I'm a green with the writers on this, because I fundamentally walk away from this going the judges are the bad guys. Like the criminals aren't good, but these judges are fundamentally making everything around them worse. Am I Is that what this movie
is about? Is it supposed to be a commentary on overly aggressive police tactics. Is it supposed to be like most of us are cheering on Dread and watching him blow these people up in horrible and terrible ways. What was your take on, Like, what's the movie actually trying to say? Because I
was very confused. Yeah, I think confusion is well warranted. You know, I think it's interesting because just to what you said earlier, the writer, the screenwriter actually said, I didn't think Dread could have a great epiphany, but there's definitely a change in him over the course of the movie. You know, he makes a very clear statement at the beginning of the film,
which he then contradicts at the end. But you know, that's about as far as the shift goes in terms of that he doesn't think she'll pass the assessment, and then passing her. Not that he doesn't think she'll pass. He says, if you lose control of your primary weapon, that's an automatic fail. She lost control over primary weapon and she's like, yeah, I know I failed, but until the thing's over, like I'm still gonna
do this. Right. So it's I think it's complicated, right because I think on the one hand, the story of the movie is it's very straight forward UM. If you've seen the raid also, it's basically the same premise, right, like you have these cops entering this building that then gets shut down and they're trying to make it to you know, the primary villain at
the top. I do think that the movie is aware and to some extent is commenting on UM the you know, the militarization of police, the UM you know, police killing people, the the justice system, you know, having justice and in quotes and I think the original Dread Judge Dread comic from I think two thousand a d UM is the thing that is part of UM, which is British by the way, right, it's it's a it's a British it's it's an American character, but it's a it's a British story about
American policing. To some extent, I think that's interest, you know. And and then this film I believe was made in South Africa actually UM and and the writer of the screenplay is also English as well. And so I do think there's a level of commentary on you know, American policing and you know, some of the problems with it and with the concept in general.
And you know, you you referenced the government like I'm not sure there's a government, Like there's there's this judge academy basically, right, there's like the judges, and it seems like that is the government, like basically, which you know, kind of raises the question like what is a government? You know, the idea that like most places can kind of only successfully have one
government at a time. You know, Um, I think there's this idea of like the consent of the government being a thing that I mean, I don't think exists, Like there's there's no UNI universal buy in really anywhere, and societies are not generally super opt in right on like a country level.
And I also think like silence is not consent. So I think when it comes to government and like what governments do, like the way I look at it, which I feel like is actually kind of on display here, is that a government is an entity created by people and perpetuated by people that exerts influence over a larger number of people, some of those people consenting to that government and some of them just like, I mean, you could say everyone's oppressed by it, but if you consent to it, then I guess you
could say, well, that's then that's not oppression really. But like, but the point being here, there's this organization of judges that's just like, we're going to do this thing because it's what we do. And it does not seem to me like the population consents to this in any fashion. You know. I think that's very true, and I think that's for me,
that's one of the first things that really grabbed me. And I'll say, all this time you said about consent and stuff like that, I'm so tempted to go into like a civics conversation here, but I mean, no, that's a that's a long conversation there, And I would say, there, I read with emotion what you're saying. I think I might frame it a little bit differently, but certainly I think you're right in this in this setting.
And that's part of why I kept thinking about this in terms of, like, I don't think the judges are because he says at both the beginning and the end of the movie, that he sees his role as is like trying to bring order out of chaos, right, And I fundamentally don't think he's doing that. I think the judges are actually doing the opposite. And part of that is, granted that we've had a whole lot of focus on police from a more sociological perspective and things like that since the time this movie
was made, and especially since the original movie. But there's like four things here I'm wanting to say. So let me actually go back a bit to the original movie. The first movie was Syvester Stallone, Okay, which I have not seen for the record, Sure, I assume you don't mind if I spoil it though, right, I'm aware that he takes off his helmet and I've literally seen the end scene on YouTube or something. Yeah, I don't care about it, not going to watch. I mean a joke about
Sylvester Stallone's acting. I think at times Sylvester Stallone can be a phenomenal actor. Sure, I think he's also one of the absolute best at phoning it in there is, and he learned early, like, oh, this is a part I care about. I'm going to really work at this acting or Okay, this is a paycheck, I'm going to phone it in. Yeah, Judge Dredd is a phone it in movie. But what I'm going to
that is the way that movie was marketed. That movie was coming out at a time when you know, the cultural zeitgeist was very much in a place of crime is bad, drugs are bad, violence is bad, and so any in all things that we do to stop it, even things that seem like downright sadistic and terrible are totally okay. And you know, Lethal Weapon was a really popular set of movies about a cop who wouldn't play by the
rules because the rules were stopping him from truly fighting crime. And by the way, most of that crime, of course being done by people of color, with the one movie where that's They're South Africans, which is a whole other thing, but like that whole like Reagan Giuliani, zeitgeist was very much there and went on into the nineties and certainly is now still very much here today. But I think today, at least large parts of society are much
more critical about it. When Judge Dread came out, the parts of our society that were critical about it was certainly there, but a lot quieter and not being paid attention to. And I don't remember much about the movie, but I specifically remember that, like, you know, the way it was marketed was crime as a disease and He's the cure, Like you were supposed to be cheering him on as he violently, sadistically killed these bad people.
I'm using quote marks with my fingers, which is bad radio, but you know, you know what I mean. And I think part of why I was so hesitant to see this movie is because of that, Because like I didn't think about as much as a kid when I watched it, but thinking about it today, I was like, I don't want to watch a movie about how cool it is that a person, a cop, gets to use horrific levels of violence in order to stop crime, when like, yeah, like this. And so when I watched this movie, like I said,
I kept wondering, is the writer understanding the criticism they're doing? And I think they were, And like as you said, and again I also wondered to what extent It's like the writer had an idea of being social commentary, but somewhere in the process they also were like Okay, but let's also give the audience what they want in terms of all the cool explosions and stuff like that, because fundamentally, and this goes to where I started from your point
about the consent, one of things I'm really struck by is no one in this building in which they're living horrible lives, to be clear, Like the person a woman named Mama, who runs the gang. The gang is called the Mama Gang, Like she thinks that the judges are on one side of a floor of the like the quadrilateral of the building, and she just uses machine guns to kill like two dozen people while trying to get the gang the judges. Like it's a reign of terror. And yet everyone there is like,
you judges aren't here to help. Even the people who run the medical center, who are kind of neutral and different from it, are like, I'm not going to help you. You're already dead. I can't help you.
I don't want to help you. And so to me, what all that goes to is I'm seeing it through the lens of New York City and Giuliani and now George Floyd and all this stuff, where one of the things I think that's where they come out is that one of the biggest reasons why there is such horrible breakdown relationships between cops and the communities they are, in theories supposed to be protecting, is that cops don't treat those communities as one's
their members of and want to help. They act like invading armies, you know, the military technology and seeing the people as the enemy. And this movie is like all of that to times a million, you know, long Randall, I'll let you jump in here, but just to say, like to I think that was why to me the movie was so interesting, but also so like I wonder what the writer is doing and how much the writer
realizes what they're doing. I think they completely realize what they're doing. Um. I think they also are doing you know, as we talked about in Desperado, you know, kind of trying to have it both ways, you
know. Um. And just in terms of like the original movie it came out in ninety five, right, which was one year after you know, Newt Gingrich and is like contract with America, Like, you know, calling it a contract with America is like basically implying that it's like that there's some kind of consents, right, and like disagreement and and then they started, you know, doing all these horrible mandatory minimum sentences and U that was right
around when um Giuliani, right, and and Bill Bretton in New York were And it's it's interesting because like the New York that we grew up in as little kids, like was I mean, I mean I lived in Hell's Kitchen, you know, like and it was called that not just like arbitrarrily. It's like there were a lot of murders, you know. Um, it's funny because I actually grew up in um these buildings called Manhattan Plaza that were like these two towers that were, um, you know, like this village
within a city that actually kind of reminds me. I mean, it wasn't at all like it was like the opposite of this peach trees here that you know, the Mama Clan like runs. But um, you know this idea of like you can basically have like a city within a city, you know, in a building. UM. And I think that the movie, like it definitely, I think it wants you to like dread root for Dread, but also understand that the whole thing is just super messed up, and that
a lot of what he's doing and um. At one point there's there's this one dude who who's shooting at um at dread and um Anderson right, and um, oh that's pretty funny. Her name is Cassandra Anderson. Um. And in my notes I say that, um, she totally you know, she Cassie and andor's this guy in the face um and and uh you know, there's have a lot of the same letters. But then later she sees like that this guy they're basically helped a little bit by um, by this
woman right who has like a baby in the next room or whatever. And then she sees a photograph that like that dude was like probably the father of that child and was like this this woman's partner, and and she just shot him in the face, you know, while he was I think, pleading for his life. Yeah, and that this woman like there's no question even like that maybe he was an absent father or something. The woman is saying like, look, my husband's out there. I know he's trying to kill
you. I'm very worried for him. The only reason I'm helping you is so that you don't get into a fight and kill my husband. Right, And you get and you know, and so there's not gunfire here that kills me or my baby and whatever. But like, yeah, she's she's trying to protect her family. She's not like I am helping you law people. You know, She's like, please leave as quickly as possible without incident.
And so, you know, clearly that's some level of commentary on you know, it's it's kind of the Desperado's equivalent of like, you know, everybody I've killed has been somebody's brother or somebody's father or somebody's kid. You know.
But at the same time, you know, the movie does like spectacularly glorify extreme violence, right while also Villa find the same from you know, the other characters who are a mix of just horrible, horrible people who are very clearly sadistic, malicious, and you know, trying to just do harm
because yeah, pretty much just because they're they're selfish and horrible. But also even those characters, it's like you can see like some of them were victims of others, and Mama was a victim of of someone else before she became who she was, you know. And so I think there is a level of commentary on those structures and kind of how people become violent, when they
become violent. But at the same time, it's like that's it's not a very deep level of that, right, Like it's there, it's an undertone
and it's an implication, but it's not like the overriding theme. Yeah, I mean this feels to me very similar, but like in much broader strokes that to the Wire, you know, in that The Wire had the same idea of the problem is these systems and no one crusader cop and no one like you know, drug dealer who wants to like clean up the system, Like none of them are ever going to make any difference because the system is
so fundamentally built to keep everything in place or to make things keep getting worse. And I think that's definitely because, like I said, I think that in some ways that's why I really like that there isn't any big societal change that happens at the end of this movie. Right, there's no sense that there won't just be another Mama who comes along to replace Mama, or that anyone in this world has learned a lesson of like maybe we shouldn't do these
criminal things. Like the judges are just as in some ways, actually people have learned even to trust the judges even less because we found there were some corrupt judges who wind up getting to a fight our protagonists. Yeah, it's very much The Wire, but I think you said it's on a much more
shallow level. Yeah, and you know what I mean, it's a ninety five minute movie that's like, you know, a kind of an action with like some suspense thriller kind of elements, right, And you know, I mean, you're you're just not going to get the same depth in an action movie that you would get in you know, fifty episodes of you know, some of the greatest television ever made. But you know, The Wire is very hard to watch, and a lot of people just who really love good
television, I've just not watched The Wire. We'll watch an episode or two because it's there isn't a good guy, there isn't a like someone to root for. It's all about these flawed people, and I love that. But like, this is a much more you know, I'm not gonna call it commercially successful because it's just such a different kind of market, but I feel like this is made to be much more mass market. Yeah, I think so. I mean it definitely. It wasn't commercially successful, right, I
mean it barely earns back its production budget. It did become you know, a cult classic, and oh that's interesting you know post release. Um. But you know, it's a relatively small movie. I mean, this is this is a B film, right in terms of just in terms of budget. It's it's the type of mid market film that I feel like we don't see nearly as much of anymore, and I think that's unfortunate. You know.
I feel like now they would be like a movie like this, it either has to be you know, nine figures or it, or it doesn't get made or it's like you know, a fan film, you know, Whereas this was like thirty five to forty million in twenty thirteen, so maybe that's closer to like fifty million doll or something. But um, but yeah,
I think it didn't quite. I think it's it achieved what it set out to achieve, like as a movie, if not commercially you know where I don't think it was aspiring to be some like super deep social commentary with um with really detailed characters, right, I think. But I do think that there's a decent out beneath the characters without um, you know, I mean, I think the performances are really good. I think if if it was if if the performances were weaker, it could actually just be a legitimately
bad movie. Um. There's some cleverness, you know. There's the there's the four corrupt judges who one of them's like, oh I'll you know, I'll see her and if I see her first, I'll shoot her. And if she sees me first, I'll she'll hesitate and then I'll shoot her. And like, um, you know, speaking of superheroes, Anderson actually is a superhero, right, She's a mutant who has psychic powers, and she
sees her and and the I'm gonna say superpowered individual. I'm still not there with a hero word because yeah, fair fair, fair, fair totally um and this, um, you know, superpower super supervillain like whatever. Um. But the corrupt judge is like, lower your weapid rookie, and she's like, no, you want to kill me, I'm just gonna shoot you. And then she just shoots her, you know, right, um,
because that's how they do things. And I don't think we're meant to be like, oh, this is a good way of doing things, you know, whereas I think we are meant to think Judge Dread is very good at doing things this way and does you know, learn to kind of make little exceptions, but like really little, you know. I mean, for me, here's the thing. And maybe I'm misunderstood at what happened at the very end, but there's a thing that he does at the end that really is
like nope, he's he's the same person. And early in the movie, what starts the reason for the judges to go there is that the Mama Gang, at the order of Mamma herself, executes a couple of people and their deaths are very public, and that's why the judges go to investigate. And he gives them alive and then drops them off two hundred stories. Yes, yes, well, And the thing is, it's not only that he pushes them off two hundred stories. It's that they've invented a drug called SloMo right,
which basically makes it feel like time is slowed down for you. Yeah, and they specifically like inject these people with this drug for the sole purpose of torture, of having that experience of falling to your death be drawn out to like a hundred times as long. Yeah, that's not why they invented the drug. Yeah, the drug is meant to be a fun drug or but like yeah, but they give it to them for the sole purpose of torture these people that are going to kill, Right, Marlo Stanfield would be
like, yes, good on you. I like this right most Stanfure is a very sadistic person from the From the Wire the later seasons um at the end, not surprisingly, in a very kind of like you know, you get what you give, Dread winds up pushing Mama over the edge, so she falls in exactly the same way, and he injects her with the drug, which to me is like again that that felt to me again very much more like the ninety nine is like, I'm going to make this person suffer
the exact way she made other people suffer, which to me was very much the like this is where me and the movie, or maybe the movie is being critical of it as well, but is that this is no way about crime prevention, This is no way about like change. This is one about vengeance, about these people do bad things and so they have to be punished, and in that way, I think if that's what the regent tend which
I think, I think I agree with you that it was. It's brilliant commentary, but it's such a perfect way of showing like, yes, Dredd is getting a little he's changing a little bit, but he still fundamentally sees his job is not only to like stop these people, but to punish them. And to me, that's like the you know, I mean, there are libraries of papers written on how the fundamental problem with the charical justice system we have is that the goal is vengeance and punishment, not reform or change
or anything like that. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, he's literally like this is the sentence, you know, and it is very I mean harsh, is not it's not really an appropriate word, right, And that does feel like it's a sort of add on, just like extra sort of vindictive, vengeful thing to do. I did the first time I saw it kind of felt like maybe the idea was also that like somehow that you know, like slows down how quickly she'll die from because I think she's
bleeding, right. I think he shoots her first, and so that like then she won't like her heart won't stop before she falls to the bottom. But I think that was just kind of a generous reading. I don't think that's actually in there, you know. I think it is just like, oh, yeah, you did this to other people. Now that you know
that's how you die, I want you to suffer. Yeah, And I think that's the sort of thing that I think is often very appealing to people on a personal level, right in terms of like wanting to see someone suffer who has caused so much harm. And I think just an extremely poisonous idea to have associated with anything that you're trying to call a justice system or law
enforcement or anything like that. Yeah, And I see the way you said that is so important because like if I'm to claim that, like I would never feel that there's a reason why I've watched the video of Dave Chappelle calling Elon Musk up on stage and the whole audience booing louder than you almost ever hear a bunch of times like I have shaudon Freud as much as anybody else's.
I think you're saying it really well. It's that when you build a governmental system of justice on idea of vengeance, like instead of it just being like you know, this was we go way way back into the archives. The discussion we had in Desperado, it was exactly the thing. Yeah, there is something satisfying and when you're looking to have fun fun about watching you
know, bad people get their just desserts. But it still can be all like, but when it becomes like this is how the cops should act, this is how the justam system should act, we're in bad territory there. Yeah. Absolutely, there's a lot of things that like I think can be like, oh, well, that's not a good thing for an individual to
do, you know, and maybe even awful. But like then when you codify it and you know, put it as part of a system and say, no, this isn't like not a great thing to do, this is the right thing to do. It's like that now instead of like being one act, it becomes part of a system that will perpetuate that act into similar acts going forward, you know, in perpetuity, and like that's extra bad. Yeah, yeah, it just feeds the cycle continues, right exactly.
Um. One thing about like the the setting kind of was that I did actually feel like this was deliberately made to look kind of like an eighties hellscape, you know, like with like like there's the skateboarding and just the way, just the overall vibe felt very eighties to me a lot. And I don't know, there's like the one there's this like homeless dude like at the entrance to the building. That dread is like, you know, oh, this is you know, the penalty for this is something like five years or
something insane. I think, yeah, isocubes prison sound. Isocubes sound worse right, exactly exactly, Although I've actually had this thought since watching and Or that there is an element of the horror of US prisons that is absent from that that also would be absent from isocubes. Where I mean, I think a lot of the horror of the prisons in our own world are the interactions between inmates and how it almost feels like there is, you know, an
attitude of everybody being against each other. It almost feels like that's fostered. You know, I agree with you, But it also points out that like in those prisons, the thing they do to prisoners when they want to really punish them is solitary confinement. Yeah, And I think at the end of the day, part of that is like, what are the actual conditions of that solitary confinement, how much can you move? How much light is there?
Like you know, yeah, is it sensory deprivation or is it like if you lock me in like a dorm room with a library, like I'm good, you know, like if you're in a box where he can't stand up straight, that's torture. We know so little about what those iccubes are. I think though, that when they use that phrasing specifically, we're not meant to think this is any way better. I agree, I agree, I agree, Yes, this is this is totally a tangent my bad um.
But I just love the dude's sign. It says, will debase self for credits. Oh I didn't even catch that. That's so yeah, which to me, that just feels like that that's a sign that clearly the movie gets something and is trying to say something right. And then when they come back, dreads like, oh you're still here, Okay, we're going to actually, you know, now get the Patti wagon for you. And then then Mama closes the doors and the door literally crushes the guy. Um,
which I mean seems worse than an isocube. But like it's not like anybody was offering like, oh, come with us. It will make sure you get like a bed and a warm you know, a warm meal. Yeah, or is it a yeah, hot meal and a warm bed, I don't know, whatever, something better than you know, having to sit outside peach trees and potentially get crushed by the blast doors. Yeah. No, I think it's so true, and it's funny. I hadn't thought it until
you said that. But I think that another way is part of the commentary because like going back to when Judge Dread was made again, I don't want to speak say anything about the comics and when it was made or its context, but one of the biggest parts of that whole, like tough on crime, crime is the problem, which does continue to this day, but especially it was really big in the eighties and nineties, was this belief that cities,
especially the quote unquote inner city or the word those often used the ghetto, both terms. I think we were recognizing today how incredibly racially coded those phrases are and how racist they were. But like that was the thing, and like a lot of it was about like getting suburban people and more rural
people to be utterly afraid of the cities. Yeah, and that to me, like that image of the urban healthscape is very much a part of that, you know, and like there's all these studies that have been done that like on the news, like you'd see that all the time. You'd never see like kids playing in a park the way all these cities had, even in the poorest areas, you know, all or like a playground or whatever it is. You wouldn't see the good side of city life. You'd just
see that urban hellscape. And that's another one time. So it's like, I don't know if they're doing that to like feed into the still like fear of like urbanization that exists, or to be a commentary on it, but either way, it's very much it's effective. Yeah, I agree, Yeah, I'll leave it. I agree. Yeah. You and I are both people who grew up in city, so I think I have a very different
perspective on it. Right. Oh yeah, I was gonna say, there's I mean, it feels like there's this big resurgence of that right that that kind of that was a huge deal for a while, and then it felt like it was less of a deal for a while, and then now you know, on your sort of right wing Bengo card you have like Chicago, right, and like you know, Portland, and it's like their acts like you know, I mean, granted, there are plenty of bad things going
on in cities, that is true, right, but there's also plenty of community and plenty of good things going on in cities as well. Like, cities are just places, and there is a difference between cities and suburbs and rural areas. But it's not this like it's it's not the way it is demonstrated most of the times. You know, I live here in Minneapolis. I live just outside of Minneapolis, but I go into the city quite often.
And you know, I live here. During George Floyd and when there were the protests and the police violence and the counter violence and all of that, I would talk to people who are you know, we're very much on the side of BLM and stuff like that, and they thought, just from the stuff they've been hearing in the media that like half the city was just
burned down, right or that was that that my situation. Like someone was asked like, yeah, are you getting smoke the way they get like the California or wildfires, and like, cause I remember you've talked talking about like how much smoke you dealt with when you live in California, and like, yeah, because I was so close, we got a teeny bit. But this idea that half the city burned down. There's one street, one like
main urban thoroughfare that like a couple of miles of it. Like a lot of the buildings were really badly damaged or just and like there's maybe like five or six buildings that were completely destroyed. It was nowhere near what was made
out to be. Yeah, I think part of that is because let's say you come from an area where you know, the not urban, but the kind of downtown area of a town is a certain size, and then you see the amount of destruction that there is in a given city, like and you try and superimpose that on you know, a town of ten twenty thousand people, Well, that's a much bigger percentage, Like cities are vast, Right, main Street is burned down in a small town, then yeah,
that is thirty to fifty percent of the buildings in the town, right, Whereas if it's one block, two blocks, three blocks in the city, it's like that's you know, I mean, I'm not saying it's not a bad thing. I mean, maybe it isn't a bad thing, but that's
that's its own whole thing. But like I'm just saying, in terms of scope and in terms of percentage, and in terms of like how big of an impact that has on all of the people living there, it's like it's generally much smaller than than what is perceived because they're not showing like a picture, they're not showing footage of all the areas that aren't that area, right, all the areas where that's not what's going on, Like, that's not
that's not getting equal coverage. I want to talk about the way the movie is made because I think for me, there's kind of two fundamental questions about the movie that I have, one of which about the way the movie is made. But first, let's just kind of put a bow on this, because I think we're on the same page. But I wanted to kind of like hear you say directly, like the movie is positing this horrific situation of like you know, social breakdown and people being in danger all the time and
all these things happening. Am I right in saying that? I think that that the movie. You come away from the movie going you know, Dread himself might be having some good ideas although also all of his vengeance, but the judges are not helped, Like this is not a solution that is justified or actually is helpful in this like horrific dystopian society. Is that is that where you come down? Yeah, that's yes, And I feel like the
movie is very loosely saying that. Yeah, I agreed. You know, like basically, Judge Dread is a good guy in a bad system who buys into the system, but the system doesn't really do exactly what maybe the system should do, you know, or like maybe it shouldn't exist at all. But I think there's there's also some stats early on when he talks about like seventeen thousand you know, serious crimes or violent crimes are reported every day.
We can only respond to six percent of those. And you know, I do think like when you think about these, you know, huge problems that exist, there's there aren't like really easy solutions most of the time, right, I mean there's some things like oh, you know, like yeah, okay, I think everybody should have healthcare, and like I think universal basic income would be fantastic if if you have things structured a certain way, right,
but like the fundamental statistic is that the building has ninety six percent unemployment. Like, right, judges don't fix that, Like right, it can exactly fix it that, Yeah, yeah, no, law enforcement offers no
solution to the real problems of that world. Right, And you can say, Okay, an individual judge can go somewhere and try and you know, prevent a murder or probably not prevent a murder because they're just avenging, and then that doesn't really lead anywhere, you know, but like theoretically they can go to a place and try and stop or no. I think at the end of it, it just feels useless. Yeah, And it feels to me like it's a setting where there's no good solutions, and certainly the judges
don't offer any solutions. But within the context of what they're doing, dread does a good job of doing the thing that he's doing. But like it's also just kind of one of those like throw your hands up in the air and like you know, yeah, I mean, like I would want to see Matt Murdoch show this movie to Frank Castle, like, yeah, the hope that like Frank by the end of it being like okay, well maybe maybe that's that's too far, you know, Yeah, yeah, but I
do. I mean, I think Frank Castle would like the movie. I would not necessarily take away the same things we're taking away, because I do think the movie it kind of implies and puts those things out there, But it also I think makes it very easy to just enjoy it as like a shoot him up with like oh yeah, maybe I'll think about, oh yeah, he tossed her out the window and time's going so slow, you know
he's right there. The second question I think the movie asks, which is like, because this is this is a question that like we've had about the Joker movie, we've had about Fight Club, we've had about something else, and I think you want to bring up so I'm not going to mention um, but where like when you're the point of your movie is to be kind of very critical of this thing, but in order to show the thing that you're being critical, you show it in a way that a lot of people
are going to feel like, Yeah, that's awesome. Glorify that, like have you done your job or is there like a problem, Like I don't I don't think it's a movie's job to make a point. I think like, if you make a movie and you make money, like and that's the art you want to put out in the world or just the money making thing
you want to put out in the world, good for you. I'm not I'm not going to hold you to a higher standard, but I think there's an interesting question when, like you, you put out a movie that is both very critical of something, but if you're not really looking carefully, you're
going to totally miss that and actually have the opposite response. Yeah, Um, I mean I think when you're trying to tell a story, your job is to tell a story, you know, And I mean sure in terms of, you know, the capitalistic view of it, your job is to make a money. And they didn't make a money. I don't know, I don't know why I said it that way, but like, you know, uh, you know, they didn't have a high like return on investment,
right. But I do think at the end of the day, um, you know, as a as a storyteller, it's like, well, what story are you trying to tell? And like did you tell that story? Well? And I feel like they told the story well, you know. And I think one of my least favorite things is when a movie's like this is the message, and it's like, by the way, did you
did you get the message? Can? I'm gonna have a character say the message, and then someone else is gonna be like no, but that's not the thing, and they'll be like, yes, this is the message, and then like just is so overtly having a um like an agenda. That's that's just like it's hard to tell a good story that way, you know.
And there are cases where you can do it well when you know, if you if your story is literally about like a political protest, like okay, now, it's pretty reasonable for you to have characters talking about whatever the thing is they're protesting, right and raising different points and whatever. Um. But there's there's a lot of circumstances where it's like, well, that's that's
probably not going to make a great action movie, you know. UM. And I think when it comes to like action movies and stories that are you know, action stories or adventure stories, I feel like, really the best you can do is is put things out there for people to pick up on, and then they kind of either do or they don't, um, you
know. But at the same time, like, yeah, I mean, if your main goal is to like make one particular point, and you may a story or some other piece of art that like can easily be interpreted as the opposite, and then like people are gonna take away the opposite, Like I would say, you haven't succeeded in that goal. You know, you've you've muddied the waters, and maybe you've exceeded its succeeded in the opposite goal. You know. I think that's a really good way to put it.
And I think a lot of it comes down to, like I think I look at this a little more harshly when or leave a little more critically when it feels like part of your goal is to be critical of other kinds of media. M Yeah, you know, and like I think in some ways this movie is fairly critical of the lethal weapons and even the original movie, and like there's that whole genre of like raw rack cops go do the terrible things to the people of color and the poor people because like that's our societal
vengeance against them. And and yeah, so I think, like, like we talked about that during Desperado that it felt like fitting but also a little bit like kind of trying to have it both ways. That you've got this movie about antanniae omanderies. Here he's doing it more in like funny than like gruesome ways. But still it's like, Yep, that bad guy died. That bad guy ed. He deserved to die. He deserves to die. Oh but by the way, all of them have like a father or a
mother or a son or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like but it weird because yeah, I don't think this movie would have been as good if it had had that kind of a point, you know, like if you'd had the rookie at the end, you know, there's a great moment where she has to perform what we were just talking about, where she has to literally murder the person who is begging for his life, the who turns out as the partner of the woman they stay with, and she
hesitates at first, and when she performs the sentence, when she executes him under Dread's orders because that's what her job is, you can see that it affects her. Yeah, And by the end of the movie she still wants to be a judge, and I feel like you could have had her be like, oh, I think that, like this is a waste. You know, her make the she could have made the point of the movie and
said we're not helping. I can't do this. I quit. And on the one hand, I think that would have made that would have better made the point, but it also it wouldn't have felt real. Um. Yeah, And so I'm torn because I feel that. But then I also do think like the movie went pretty far into you know, into like gltifying and making it really easy for someone to totally miss the point. Yeah. Absolutely,
Um. I mean there are I think three other instances where they let someone else go, or maybe maybe it's two, because there's the one. There's there's the guy who's um, I think it's Bill Weasley, right, No, um, who is like he's like the tech guy who's it turns out, is basically working under a threat of death, you know, in
torture. Um. And I think they took his eyes out and put in some kind of like um cybernetic replacements or something, and um, you know, and she she lets him go, and she's like he was a you know, he's a victim, not a villain, or however she says it.
But then also dread like he has some kind of like stunned thing for these two like teenagers, right, It's like, oh, he's he's not going to kill the teenagers, okay, And and so it does seem like there's I mean, for her, there's there's Actually she has the character arc right where um, it seems like she wants to do this because they stuck
her in the academy when she was nine. You know, it's like it's what she knows, but she also maybe thinks she can do better, right, and like the idea of doing something totally separate outside the system maybe doesn't really occur to her, maybe because you know, there's just not a lot of opportunity for that, um, but she is willing to kind of first she makes the call like, yeah, okay, I'll shoot this guy in the face because I guess it's what I'm supposed to do, and Dread tell
me to do that. And then she's like, I'm not going to shoot this guy in the face because, you know, because I've read his mind and I know this that and the other, and so it just you know, at the end, she does want to be a judge, and she's like learned a lot about what it means, right, which isn't great things, but like you know, maybe It's the sort of thing where it's like, well, if somebody else is going to do it anyway, maybe I can do it not as bad, you know, yea, And yeah,
I don't know. There's just the one line I just wanted to quote where you know, he's like are you ready and she's like yeah, and he's like you don't look ready, and then later he's like you look ready something, and it's like she's changed, right, Like that experience of this whole thing has been a character you know, moment for her, Like she she has developed as a person, And in some ways that's kind of the tragedy
of the movie, because I don't think that's good. Guys think her being horrified at the idea of shooting this unarmed person like good, you know, all right? And the teena the thing with a stunt weapon also really struck me because like, there's a part of me it's like, why aren't you stunning everybody? Right, and her line about you know what, this guy's
a victim. On the one hand, part of what am id to me, I was like, yeah, this is why, actually cops giving some thought to the context of people before they start shooting is a good idea, Let's have more of that, please, we don't have psychics in our own world. But you know my point. But it also struck me very innocent because, with the exception of Mama and maybe not even her, as you
said, all the people they kill are victims. All the people they kill, like you said, ninety six percent unemployment, like, and there are times where Mama says, like, if if I don't, if I find out that you weren't helping to kill these judges, I'm going to kill you. Yeah. All the people who the judges are going after and are going after the judges are victims too. And I'm not mad at the movie for
it. I think it's actually a really good point. It felt the way that like, we only care about someone when we know their motives, but then we assume that like everyone else doesn't have good motives because we don't know what their motives are. That to me felt very real and like, again, I don't even know that commentary was intentional, but it definitely came through.
Yeah, I think it definitely was. I mean, I think there was definitely supposed to be a you know, a subtext of everybody has their own story, right, Yeah, And everybody's affected by all of the circumstances around them, and nobody thinks they're the villain, right or they at least you know, I mean I saw what Harris was basically saying, like yeah, when I was playing this character, like, you know, he doesn't think he's a villain, or at least he doesn't think he's worse than the
judges, you know, and it's like, maybe he's not worse than the judges. I mean he does literally skin some people alive and toss them off of a railing, which, like I don't know, like I kind of feel like that's worse than at least anything except for you know, giving Mama the slow motion thing and then tossing her off you know. Well, and what Harris is the Avon box Dill actor, right, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I do think they had him do something worse. And frankly, it wasn't the only parts of the movie that I'll like because it felt kind of exploitative, which is that um basically, because he figures out that the rookie reminding her name Anderson, because he figures out that Anderson, the rookie who as who said it, is an attractive young woman can read his mind. He starts thinking these very violent thoughts about sexually assaulting her in an attempt
to shock her and or a throne level by any means. But like definitely, like we see like a second or two of it happening, and it just like I do think that that makes him that that was supposed to be made and be like, no, he's one of the real bad ones.
But also it was like, really did you have to do that? Like yeah, I mean I don't think that scenes in there, and I wouldn't I wouldn't have missed it, right right, I mean I feel like that that was one of two times when it felt to me like I thought they were going to go a certain way and then they they pivoted, you know where where they basically have her be like, oh, well that's so that's
what you want to put in my mind. Now I'll put this in your mind, you know, and pretty much you know, kind of like outplays him there, you know. I mean, yeah, it's I don't know, I I feel you you know, yeah, I don't feel exactly the same. I feel like it could have gone in a direction where I would be have the same same feeling about it. That you do. But I felt like, um, it kind of pivoted away from that or into it, went there and then went somewhere else that I felt like justified that.
Um. Then and then further um in terms of like you know her character. Um, he then does get the jump on her. I don't think through that. I think it's like some other people are like distract them or whatever. Um. It didn't really make sense to me why he got the jump on the psychic but yeah, go on, right, Well, no, it's so it's I mean, I think her power has to be used deliberately at a person. I think it's targeted. I don't think she's like
pre I don't think she has precognition. She can read people's minds, you know. Um, so she's a telepath right and um, and when there's other I think there's other people firing at them, and then he gets her weapon away from her. Now I I do it is a little bit like, well, why does she go with them at gunpoint when if she knows
the thing about her gun? Right? Um. But like anyway, my point being that, yes, I agree that that kind of her getting kidnapped or whatever was a little bit like wait, how does this really make sense?
Um? And and just felt like they kind of wanted it to go that way, and then it feels like Dread is coming to rescue her, right yeah, and then it turns you know, but then they turned it around and actually she ends up saving Dread, which where where um Dread basically you know, loses a fight to to Lex, the head corrupt judge because he's out of AMMO because he's been fighting all day um, and he's like wait and Lex is like me, wait, He's like wait for what?
Wait for so you can enjoy your last few dying moments. And then she comes out and shoots him and he's like, wait for her to shoot you? Yeah, And I just I thought that that was a nice kind of subversion of the trope of like her getting damns old or whatever. And and then I also enjoyed that it's like, you know, it's a movie with you know, a male lead and a female lead, and it's it's not
romantic. There's not like anything yeah at all, you know, and it's just like this is training day and it's like one of them happens to be Mail and the other happens to be female and it's just you know, it's training day and without so I appreciating super corrupt, but yes, I agree you're saying, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, except he's dread and not Lex, and you know then it would be training day if if she was Lex's apprentice, right, But yeah, just in that terms of like
that's the relationship, right, it's the you know, the cop and then the rookie cop on you know, the first day out basically, well, and just pulling it back to the question that we were wit. We were just pulling it back to the question that asked a little while ago. Also in terms of like what the movie is doing. And I thought, this is what you're gonna bring up because I think you mentioned a couple of times
maybe i'd misundersture you. One of the things that makes what for me the thing I will always think about in terms of this, like what happens when you are critiquing something but also doing the thing you're critiquing as part of that is Hunger Games. Yeah, where you know the books are I don't think it hits you over the head too much, at least in the books,
maybe a little bit more in the movie. But it's meant to be a critique of the kind of glorification of like watching like young people like fight with each other and things like that and kind of our and a lot of things like that. And so when they made and in the books there's not the fight scenes are very briefly described, because the whole point is like, we're
not supposed to be like enjoying the fight scenes. And the director of the movie, at least the first movie had that as a very particular aim in mind of and he said in a quote I mentioned this a bunch of times before, but like, I don't want kids to walk out of the movie and want to reenact the fight scenes. And I don't think Hunger Games do that perfectly by any means, especially in the later movie, but to me,
it did kind of set a standard. And so that that is what I always think about when I think about movies like this, and I think, yeah, I don't I think they're definitely like I've seen some movies that are like in theory about like you know, sexual exploitation, and all the scenes take place in strip clubs with a lot of focus on like people writhing in very little clothing as a way of being like, look, sexual explutation
is bad and you're definitely not paying the money to like watch the sexual expectation on screen. Not that sex work is, but there's a whole other conversation there, understand where I'm coming from. Yeah, and I don't think this movie is that bad by any means, but I do think that, like I think the way you described it as perfect, Like it has a message, and the message it is interesting, but it's not No one sat down and said, I need you to give me this money because I need to
tell this message. I need the world to be better. They thought, let's make a fun movie based off of a really interesting story, and yeah, we're gonna have some commentary in there. And if people miss the commentary, that's fine because it's still a good it's a good story, yeah, give or take. You know, I do think that the Hunger Games, like I respect that that's like what they were trying to do. You know, it's still to me, it doesn't really feel different to me, Like,
I don't know it. I didn't feel that they really did what they set out to do necessarily, you know, like it still felt like it was. Yeah, it's supposed to be a critique of this thing, but it's like it is also still the thing, you know, right, And I feel like, I'm not sure how much dread is a critique of action movies as much as of you know, sort of policing and particularly like US policing, but it definitely it does feel like it's you know, setting out
to kind of say one thing while also doing the other. That's kind of like really at cross purposes to that, you know, like I wouldn't be shocked if I heard from someone oh yeah, you know, I you know, I had kind of thought about being a cop, but when I saw Dread, like it made me more want to do that, you know. Um, but I could also see someone having kind of the opposite response.
And yeah, I mean a lot of cops clearly misunderstanding it. But a lot of cops have like punisher symbols on their on their you know, tattoos or whatever. You're not getting at with dread. I think dred is more extreme. That's and that's good. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And I will say that like, um, uh, you know, there's the the iconic line, and I thought it was delivered very well in this where it was like, you know, dread is addressing everyone in the building through some
you know, little really ancient looking technology terminal. Yeah, like you know the way Star Wars is like nineteen seventies tech, This is like nineteen eighties tech. And even though it's in like two thy eighties the setting, right. Um, but he's like, Mama is not the law. I am the law. And and that's like, you know, his big thing that he says, you know. Um. And I used to play a character in a role playing game who was like the Sheriff of New York or whatever.
It was a vampire and like he was really into like the Anthrox song I Am the Law, you know, which is this judge dread thing. But the funny thing is that the character was originally like, as a kid, was an anarchist in the Spanish Civil War and and then kind of like
became the fascist, you know. And I think that I don't know that kind of cycle, Like I feel like that's a thing, you know, Yeah, like people people fight against the thing they're fighting against until they're the thing that they were, until they are the thing that they were fighting against. I mean, I think, like I don't want to go back over Randor, but I think and Or has a couple of versions of that story
in various ways. Also, you put your finger on something I hadn't quite figured out, but I think really kind of squares the circle that we're talking about. And then I think you're right, it's that the movie is being critical of policing at least to make some commentary and raise some questions about policing
and the militarization of policing. And I think a lot of other people have a critique of the role that the Raw Rock Cops kill all the criminals movies of the eighties and nineties and then going forward to day, but especially that period had in contributing towards the cops are always good, criminals are always bad idea. And so I'm kind of bringing that further now. And you're right
that that part of it. This movie isn't engaging with. This movie is not trying to say that that I'm in a genre of movies that have contributed to this thing that I'm criptiquing. They're just critiquing the thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'll also say, like, the movie is only ninety five minutes long, right, you do that much, right, And I think it's a good choice you know, I think, like, not every story has to do everything, you know, I think I think you
can try in especially in terms of telling a coherent story. I think very often shorter is better, and I think often when you want to make a point, I think not be laboring it is better. As much as I fail to not be labor points when I am just talking free form, We're gonna try very hard to keep that. I think this podcasting to come in under ninety five minutes, but it might be close, but certainly so, I definitely agree, And yeah, we are about to wrap up. I
just got one more big point we want to get into. But yeah, I agree. I think it's good that it's short, and like I said, I think it's good that it is a day in the life movie. Like I don't get the sense that like this this is obviously I think like if if if you ask Dread, like what are his ten worst experiences? This is probably in the ten. But this isn't the thing that makes him quit the force or anything like that. This is just it's just one more
day for him. Yeah, yeah, exactly, actually getting go ahead, No, I'm just agreeing. Yeah, so I actually want to get into Dread a little bit as our last point. We'll do that right after this. Welcome mac um So, Paul, here's my last question. I get we're just trying to get into it. Why do you think Dread does this
every day? Like he's one of the first peace He starts out with a little bit this hopeful statement about, you know, bringing order out of chaos, but very early on in his training of Anderson, you can see that he's very cynical and jaded. He doesn't think this is going to do much good. He's just trying to live through the day. Why do you think
he does this? It's a good question. I think it's because it's what he knows, you know, it's what he's trained to do, it's what he's good at doing, and kind of like what else is he going to do? I think is like basically just his motivation, you know, It's
like it's who he is and that's why he does what he does. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and in some ways I think that's almost some of the most steering commentary of all of it, is that one of the and I think again this is what the Wire also really does well, is that the problem with these systems is that when you're in the system, like you just do what you do. You don't think of yourself
as like like you are this fundamental force for justice or foreign injustice. You're just you're just trying do your own little thing in its own little place, and you don't think about it much. Be on that, yeah, because like if I went through this, I'd be like, hell, no, give me a better job, Like I'm not doing this right, But like, looking at this setting, I'm sorry, what is that better job? Yeah? You know what I mean, Like that's and that's the thing.
And that's like why does k the what Harris character do what he does well? Because he lives where he lives, and like what are his other options?
You know? And I'm not saying either of them are doing the best thing they could do, but like sometimes just when you're in a situation, you're in a particular setting, and it's like it's like this is you know, this is the thing, and there just aren't obvious better options, you know, even if it's like yeah, well actually, if you can get that good at a thing, maybe you could get that good at another thing,
or maybe you could use those skills to do something different. I don't know, And I think there are some you know, within the Judge dread comics. I think there is this I think like maybe he's got this complicated backstory and you know, these family things and like there are big things about like what happens with the whole system, and I think there's a lot going
on there overall. And I think this movie was basically just like, I think it had the self awareness that it wasn't going to be able to introduce the setting and tell a story about a big thing happening within the setting, and instead chose to say, Okay, we're going to tell a small story in this setting while introducing you to the setting basically right, and even there it leaves out what is presumably a big part of the setting, but maybe
it's not in that. Almost always when you have a dystopian movie like this, you do get to see the one percent, you know, you do get to people who are profiting from all these people living in misery and who on some level the judges are helping to keep safe the people in Elysium, you know, take them at David movie. So we don't get a word
of that. There's not like it might be that this is how everybody lives, right, and it's just yeah, it's I again appreciate that because it's not like part of me would kind of love like a dread TV show, but part of me doesn't. I just like that, like, no, we don't know everything else. We'd just see this one little picture of it. Yeah, And like I think if you wanted to do a TV show,
you could tell the bigger story, right, you could. You could do the wire basically right, and you could introduce you could have introduced all those other gangs that Mama overthrew, right, and you could you could have some information about how you know, the world got irradiated, and like like
are there people living comfortable lives somewhere? Right? But like, if you're doing a ninety five minute movie, or even if you're doing a two hour movie, like an extra twenty five minutes isn't going to get you from like point A of like a day in the life to point Z, which is
like a big deal story. Yeah, definitely definitely all right, Well, Paul, any of the last comments you want to make, Yes, this is like a huge topic that I don't necessarily want to actually delve deep into but I think the concept of mind reading in a law enforcement context it's interesting. I don't know. I feel like the movie didn't really dig on that, but it just kind of treated it kind of de facto. But it's like, huh, yeah, that's that seems like kind of a big deal.
It is it really is. Have you seen Minority Report? I have? Yes. Yeah. I don't think that movie did a good job dealing with it, but at least it raised some interesting questions about it, especially because to me, I think in the movie we see mind reading by the cops used in two fundamentally different ways, and I think there's a huge ethical
difference between the two of them. And you're right that this would be its own episode, but definitely worth exploring and maybe do something like that, Professor X again about it, because that's where a lot of it comes from. Sure, but one of it is you have had bad thoughts, you have thought about doing a bad thing, and now I'm going to take action as though you have done the bad thing, or maybe like you're taking thoughts about
planning to do the thing. Yeah, obviously there's a lot of gray area there thing, but basically, like I'm going to punish you because of your thoughts, the second one being your thoughts have told me that your actions are not what I thought they were, that they're not as bad as I thought they were, and therefore I'm going to let you off of punishment as happens to the tech guy. And I like that they show both, but you're
right, there's a big ethical question. There's a lot of ethical questions because I think those two are so fundamentally different. Yeah. Absolutely, And like the idea like can a thought be a crime, or like can a thought reveal that you did some crime or that you did some crime under duress or
whatever? I will say, Minority Report feels to me like a fantastic example of a movie that is trying to introduce a setting and be an action film and have a really big deal thing within that setting go down, and I think fails on that account basically. Yeah. I mentioned Elysium before, and to me, both of those are movies that really are talking movies, Like I don't care about big, flashy action scenes, and I think they get away from what those movies should be, and yet they both feel like they
need to have them. Yeah, and that's that's always I think the thing like if you say I want to make an action movie, if you just start with that premise and then you say I want to make this big commentary or statement about such and such, I think you're already trying to do too much. And I think you basically need to say I want to do this big action movie and I want to make this small commentary about such and such.
I think you're good. And if you say I want to make a big commentary about something and then have bursts of action, then I think you can do and Or, you know, which even I feel like actually does a really good job of not overtly commenting on things as much as showing things right in certain ways. But well, well, also like and Or has significantly left Like, I mean, were you watching bad Batch recently, and
there's a fight scene in pretty much every episode. Yeah, and Or like, in terms of like ratio of screen time that is fighting the screen to him that is not it has got to be far and away the lowest of any start. Oh yeah, And that was kind of my point, was that because of the format, because it's this like new hybrid format where they
basically made four movies and released them in episodes. And you know, they basically decided we're going to have, you know, an action climax to a bunch of of non action movies basically, and so it definitely leans more on suspense. And that's what I meant about, Like, if you want to put that much characterization in what you just don't have room for the kind of
action that like an action film demands. Right. Action movies just it's like there's there's like some contractual obligation that more than fifty percent of the movie has to be action, right, and you can only have so much. Kind Of funny because the whole point of this podcast is to talk about the commentary that happens in action movies, right, And what I'm saying is like I feel like you only have time to do a little bit and make a few
points and raise questions. Honestly, to me, that's the best thing an action movie can do in terms of trying to get people to think about things, is raise some questions and make people and encourage people to think about things, because you're going to have a lot more time to think about things outside of watching the movie than in the movie. And like, if the movie makes you think that's I think more thinking is better, so you know, yeah, I think it's really true. All right, I think this is
a good time to wrap up our main discussion. Paul, as always, thank you so much for being a part of this. We're gonna go into our Patreon only last section in just a moment, but for those who aren't patrons yet, let me just say, as always, thank you so much for listening. This is all part of the Ethical Panda and you can find all the ways to contact us at the Ethical Panda dot com. Would love to know your thoughts, would love to know your feedback. Have you seen
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