Echo & the MCU

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we're talking a little bit more about Echo with star of the MCU podcast, the Grand Pandaimo of the Stranded Panda podcast network and really the inspiration for me getting into podcasting. So I'm so glad you're here with us, Matthew, Carrol dude, how are we doing today, Matthew. Very kind intro. It's good to

talk to you. Matthew. It's been a bit a while since we've gotten a cast together, so I'm definitely excited to chat about this show with you. Yeah, very much so, very much so. And to give you a little bit of background, I see. I imagine it's probably a very small percentage of you who don't know, but Matthew, talk to you, talk to us a little bit about the podcast you do, but more importantly

also kind of your background with Marvel. Because one of the reasons I wanted you on right now for this is I've been talking a lot about the representation in this show and it'd probably come up, but you are I think kind of one of the leading voices out there, at least in my world about Marvel and the MCU. So what's kind of your background with Marvel and both comics and on screen. Well, I love a connected universe, always have, so, you know, going way back to pretty much everything I grew

up on, I loved a good connected universe. And then when Marvel started doing that on such a big scale, with big budgets and a lot of forethought and interesting actors and directors, I just fell in real hard. And then around Guardians of the Galaxy we started. So twenty fourteen we started the MCU cast, that Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast if you don't know, And we're over there and we've been doing it for almost we're on our tenth year and

we're nearing our thousandth episode. Awesome, and so we're hoping, we're hoping we can align those two things. So it's like the ten year anniversary is right around the thousandth episode, we do a big bonanza, but it's coming up, so we gotta get on, we gotta get on planning that. But yeah, so you've been just talking about this stuff multiple days a week

for ten years, and I love it. I love how deep the universe goes now, with so many things and so many different corners of it that have varying level of canonicity, and so we can kind of just I like being able to like I love being able to watch uh Echo and be like, but what if Punisher showed up and did this, you know, like just like it's just weird, Like, well, is that canon? Maybe?

Maybe not? Like, let's let's get into it. I love I love how expansive the world is, and it's just fun to play in that sandbox and speculate and discuss so so so I and I and even with this Phase four and FA five haven't been as well received. But I'm in a I'm in a mindset of they're in a rebuilding time, clearly after endgame, and it's just sort of like it's the it's the growing pains of rebuilding, uh to the to the next big thing, which is probably five years away

at this point. So uh, I think I think they're in a good place. And just to say to say where I am at this exact moment. Though, have you seen have you seen Loki? I have not? Oh man, have you seen what If? No? I have not. Okay, those two shows combined have me in an incredibly excited place. I loved them both and they both had U endings that led to cool speculation.

It they just ended well, it ended really really well. And then they put up the trailer for Echo. Did you see the final trailer for Echo? You don't watch trailers, right, So I did not watch trailers, which we'll talk about in a bit, because I feel like I got the best reward in the world for having no idea what was coming in this in

this show. Oh yeah, yeah, Well, they they had a trailer that dropped for Echo, and after I'm coming off the high of what If, and they had the final trailer drop for Echo, and it was just they just took clips from all of the Daredevil stuff and showed the story of Matt Murdoch and Kingpin and how it intersected with Echo and then the So the entire trailer was is like basically saying this is canon with the Netflix stuff, like you are going to it is gonna be canon, And like that got

me really really pumped. So those three events in succession has me on a really high. Uh that's amazing level for Marvel right now. Well, and I have to say I'm feeling in a very similar place, coming from a very different direction, and we're gonna get into some details, but I think this is kind of a fun place to start, especially with the canonicity of it all, because I want to hear your thoughts on that. I, like I said, I was, I was so excited for this show.

I think a lot those who are regular listeners to Mike podcasts probably know this, but we may get some new people for this. I think this episode is also going to get rebroadcast in the MCU cast, So for those who don't know, I am myself an amputee in the exact same way I'm missing a leg below the knee that both the character of my Lopez and the actors who plays her A Loqua Cox is And so I was incredibly excited that this show also trepidacious, and so I didn't want to know anything about it.

And I think people I want to see trailers. That's awesome, and I'm so glad you get that. But I got to have a moment early on of seeing in the background a new person enter the fight in kind of a reddish suit that looked like it might have horns, and saying to my partner, is that daredevil dls in this? And I had no idea, Yeah, that's wonderful. That is wonderful. Yeah, that's something that they did announce when they first announced Echo as a show that she was going to,

that he would appear, and so so I knew that was coming. I didn't know it would be such a small part. I wasn't upset by it.

I think his role was kind of perfect. It gave it. They have done the opposite so much with the MCU shows as of late, where they saved the big connection for the end, and I think it tends to overshadow the storyline that's happening, and this one did it the opposite where they sort of sprinkle in a little MCU connection at the top and then they saved the They left the finale of this show to be the finale of the show, and I think that was way better than things like Hawkeye that like,

you know, speaking of Echo Hawkeye, you know, I think that show bringing in King Pitt in the last episode was like really overshadowed some of what was going on there. It's like the story didn't get its resolution like it needed. I think that's so true. And I think one thing I talked about a lot because one thing I think is worth noting and again, I

think there's no right or wrong in this, just different perspectives. I've definitely been a little bit burnt out by the MCU, and I'm not one of the haters, like you know, people if they love it, that's awesome. I'm not saying it's all terrible. I just the couple of things that I saw most recently above the MCU I didn't really love. I loved She Hulk, but other stuff didn't grab me. Secret Invasion, the little I saw. I didn't have any interest, Loki didn't have much interest, and

I was kind of just done with it for a while. And this show, to me, really really brought me back, particularly because I felt like this show touched on a lot of the things that I had loved about the

Netflix MCU. You know, it had a much darker tone. It was much more street level, to the point where literally when I watched the first couple of minutes, which are there, like we find out it's this gorgeous thing of the Choctua sorry Chaqua creation myth, but it's very like mystical and kind of Neon e lights almost that that's obvious supposed to be like mystical, not actual Neon I had to stop and make sure I was watching the right

show, right because I started something else. But one of the things I think that really kind of was like, Okay, I think they're doing this better was the Daredevel appearance. Because one thing I remember that I had sometimes been frustrated about was when you get to a point where in the story of the larger universe it didn't make sense that other characters weren't showing up, you

know, and like The Defenders is one of my favorite examples. I don't think Captain America or Iron Man cares if Wilson Fisk is taking over more of the construction industry, you know, right, whatever, right, right, right, But when the Hand is trying to raise a dragon and there's earthquakes happening all throughout New York City, I kind of feel like Captain America or

Tony Stark or someone else might notice, you know. Yeah. And but but of course having one of them show up at the end of The Defenders would have, as you said, just kind of taken it over. Well. I think there's a there's always if you it's a suspension of disbelief thing, I think. And I think if the show is done well, you don't care about that as much because you can always make up your own headcnon for why someone's not there. Oh, they're on a different mission, they're

doing this, Tony's whatever, Tony's in space. Who knows? Like that? There's always that's the thing. Marvel Comics has always done this. And if the comic's good, no one's asking that question. If the show is good, no one's asking that question. It's when you lose your suspension of disbelief because the show is not grabbing you that you start going really, it's

a dragon, Come on, Where's where's start? But you could easily headcanon like none of those five Defenders that were there, No, oh Tony Stark, none of them know Captain America. No one has their number, you know what I mean? So like, yes, sure they could call some organization maybe, but maybe they whatever, Maybe they don't know who they can trust. Blah blah. There's always head cannon. But like it, it doesn't. It only works that only I feel like happens when the show isn't

grabbing you. And I think Defenders is one of those that didn't grab a lot of people. Yeah, I think that's fair, and I think it also maybe the difference in how we see these stories, because for me, even if it's a very good story, I think in parts because I didn't grow up reading comic books, so I don't have that kind of like I haven't been taught how to watch these things, it would pull me out of

a story. But to me, my point is, so therefore, having Daredevil's not gonna be a main character in the show, but she's fighting Kingpin in New York City, and so it makes sense that Daredevil's going to be there. Yeah, And so to me that was just the like that's the perfect way, like in the same way that like I feel like if you know, something pulled them into Harlem, you know, and Luke Cage showing

up like it would make a lot of sense. So yeah, it just gave me a lot of hope about where the MCU is going and some of these things. And I don't know how much you know about Spotlight and their new direction with Spotlight. Do I'm sure you notice when it came on the screen that it' said Marvel Spotlight. Have you have you researched that at all?

Do you know anything about it? Yeah? Since this I did a lot of research and learned it. Yeah, it's it's kind of going to be like not like the Netflix MCU, but kind of its own, Like it's in the same continuity, but it's a little bit more street level. It's a little bit more adult focused, and it's a little more like trying to tell these stories in a connected way, well in an unconnected way.

It's kind of the goal, like, yeah, to do a allow a place for individual stories that don't have to connect, that are smaller, and I think it's right. It's it's so funny because for years we have been begging for connection. We've been begging for those moments that you're talking about, where like why don't they call Captain America, why don't they call it? Well, But like I think if we all look back, like and I'm changing my stance on this, I've been for years that guy who wants more

and more and more connection. But I think that the MIMCU when it was at its height, when it's at it's like the thing that most people remember as the best, which is like phase two and three, it is they had great things happening in the movies that were very sparsely populated, and like they were very connected, but they were like every year or two we were getting like two movies a year or something like that, and then on TV

we were getting these very grounded stories that were not connected at all. The Agency, Shield, the Defenders, all five of those shows on Netflix,

they had almost no connection. They were just in the same world. And I think the Spotlight is sort of bringing that around and saying, Hey, if you want to be a deep fan of Marvel and you want to watch everything you can, the one thing I think I need they need, though, The secret sauce of this formula working in an even better way than it worked on Endgame is whenever we get the next version of the portal scene where

everything's opening and people are coming through, we need to see the characters from Spotlight come onto the big screen at some point. They don't have to be ultra connected. You don't have to explain who they are even, just give us that little bit as fans. So we freak out and the rest of the audience goes, oh, I don't know who they are. Oh, well, you don't know who every person comes through the portals is. You just need that little bit of that would if Dared Evil had walked through the

screen and the portal scene. It's the only thing that would have made that scene better, you know what I mean, like it it would have been increased how good I mean, And I think they even started to do that to me and Spider Man where you know, oh right, right right, yeah, where Spider Man needs to find a good lawyer who can help him with stuff about Mega Superhero and who does he go too? Met Murdock? Yeah, you've no idey who met Murdock is it's just a lawyer who happens

to have really good reflexes. Yeah, I'm totally with you there, And so let me actually ask you this then, because I've been diving into this a lot. Mostly though my discussions about Echo and the people I'm following and talking to have been discussions of like the wrap presentation in it, and as you expect with you know, most shows where it's a brown woman is the star, there's a lot of people who are hating on it. There's a

lot of people who are loving it talking about how to represent it. We'll get more to that in a bit, but I haven't really dealt with a kind of like hardcore Marvel people talking about it much, and so I want to ask you about the canonicity of it all, because clearly I think it is, like you know, it is a Charlie Cox Daredevil, it's a Vincent Ainofrio Kingpin. By the way, after watch, that was another reason why it felt like it worked. I felt like I liked Kingpin and a

Hawkeye, but he didn't feel like the same character. This felt much more like the same character. And there are there are probably others who are on his level, but I think Vincent Andofrio is in terms of just the body of work of the MCU, at the very highest level of acting performances we have seen in the MCU. He was just incredible, incredible in this.

Yeah, and such are morally complex character the thing though, but I did notice that there were some things that didn't seem to fit with the exact canon of the Defenders universe. And some of them like in the fact that like all of this has already happened, but that now he's starting the process of running from Mayor. They showed like what I think is supposed to be the painting that reminds him of the wall in the home where he killed his father.

Uh, and that in the Netflix. It's just kind of a quick flash, but they show him looking at that painting in the last episode, and you know, in the mc in the Netflix MCU verse, he buys it from Vanessa and that's how he meets Vanessa. And it's a horizontal painting

and in this it was a vertical painting. And there's like one or two other things that that kind of got me thinking, and because I do think they're gonna have a real problem of how do you tell a lot of those stories when in some way you've already told all of those stories going back to you know, all the stuff that happened in you know, how is he running for mayor again? Uh, when he's kind of already done that in the Netflix MCU, I don't know, talk to like Chris Christy well,

right, like that's the thing. Talk to Joe Biden, Like people run for the same office all the time. And I think the way they should handle it, this is what I said on the MCU guest last night. If the next time we see Kingpin he's already mayor, that's how they should handle it. Like next time we see Kingpin. They were talking on that show about how like he's a he's an out We need an outsider, blah blah. Someone could swing in right now and become Mayor. We need that

to happen. And then he's like hmm. And the next time we see him, it's like Daredevil born again. It's two years later and he's just Mayor Fisk and like Daredevill's having to deal with that, it's a different story and it's just he ran again, you know, Like that's how I think they could handle it. I think that's true. I'm going in a different direction though, because to me, the fact that he was looking at it

as though like he'd never thought of this happening. As well. The vertical painting, to me was the most obvious, but there were some other things like that I didn't see the painting. When did they show the painting, Because when you're talking about in his dream, I think so in his I dream that was the actual wall. It may have looked like the painting. I think it may have looked, but it was the wall he was staring at. So he's in his original bedroom in the dream and he's looking at

the wall. There's another scene where it looked like it was very it had like a frame around it and stuff. But Okay, my point with all this being it feels like trying to say this is the exact same canon cannon of all this stuff we already saw feels like it's gonna be problematic just because there's so many story beats that we've already seen. What I'm wondering is we

now are in a multiverse. Are they going to perhaps say that the Netflix Defenders took place in a different part of the multiverse, and so what we're seeing here in this version, in the six one six or whatever it is that they're describing it as. For the MCU, it's the same Daredevil, it's the same Kingpin, and it may well be the same Luke Cage and all these other people. But by saying this is a different continuity, a different cannon, that way, they're not tied to the exact details of the

Netflix, right, They're not tied to the exact casting it. Whether like it felt to me like they were setting that up in this Whether or not you think that though, do you think that that is a possible way they're going with all this? I think that is absolutely a possible way they could go. I think that this show makes that less likely, not more. I think those smaller details that you're talking about, I mean, fist running for mayor is not a small detail, but it's like an entire season of

the show. But I do think that like they could easily say he just ran again and this time he won, like he they last time, they weren't looking for an outsider the city was. Now he sees his opportunities like, oh, I can do that thing I always wanted to do. Yeah, but but the vertical versiars little thing. I'd have to see the screenshots. I'm looking it up online. I'm not seeing that like as a have you seen I guess, like, uh, yeah, it's entirely possible that

you're right. I misunderstood it, uh and saw that. So I don't want that to be the thing that it hangs on for me. It's more that like in this he felt to me like a businessman who is very well respected in the community and pre corrupt already, but like, you know, he has all this power and influence over the cops as we see, he has all this power and influence with the casinos in ways that I feel like if he's already been to jail and had everything revealed about him the way Karen

Paige and Mett Murdoch and Foggy did in the shows doesn't really work. I don't think that's true, okay, And I just don't think like I think just the way the entirety of season three was about that exact dichotomy, Like Matt Murdoch, Karen Page, they're all yelling about how he's a corrupt criminal and like trying to stop him, and half of the city is like, oh, yeah, he's corrupt the way we like and you can absolutely see you and you could see it mirroring our world today. Oh look, they're

trying to put him on trial. That just makes us like him more. Like I just think it. I think they're setting up Yeah, that's fair. I gott to withdraw that point. I think they're just setting up a perfect parallel to what's happening in our world, and they're trying to tell a story that is going to be like very on the nose about what if, you know, like, what if a corrupt politician just keeps on being corrupt

and people won't believe it? And what does Daredevil do Because now he's the mayor, he had his chance to kill him in that hotel room, and he chose not to, and that was the victory of season three, him overcoming his rage. And now he's gonna see the result of not doing the Punisher thing. And now he's the Mayor. Now he's America's mayor. Now he's running for president, like whatever they want to do with it. And

then he's like catapulted into so much power. And then you could you could tie that into the Thunderbolts, which is something Marvel's coming out within a few years. You could have it like he's the power center that's like sort of corrupting an Avengers like team, you know, like it could it could be huge, King Kingpinn could be an even bigger character. And I'd love it if nothing else draws a personal a perfect connection between Daredevil and Echo because she

also had the chance to kill him. Yes, yes, yeah, so totally yeah, yeah. I can see it working either way, So I'll be very curious to see it. I will admit that, like the airplane running from Mayor scene was great. I was really hoping to see Foggy or Karen or even the Punisher kind of sitting down with Echo and being like, so we have a friend in common or we have a problem in common, right, yeah, yeah, we we had a lot of those discussions last

night, like who we would have one of the things we did. We actually hadn't released our episodes yet. We're like, I'm gonna lisse them to the patrons today and they'll be up later later this week because we we just had to release them in a certain way. But we had a we had a big like in our episode four, we bet on like, okay, are we going to see someone else we haven't seen? Like is someone going to show up? And like then we all took bets on like who's going

to show up if? And it turned out to be nobody, but it is. I love that last scene. I think it's it's perfect because it well, first of all, also this last scene, this this Kingpin being like Mayor or possibly Mayor or running for Mayor, also has to be tied into the fact that Maya did some fancy magic to heal his pain and who

does that make Kingpin? And then like if you've got a if you've got a daredevil who's regretting not killing him when he had the chance, and an echo who's and like then they're looking at him, and he's doing terrible things as Mayor, but also like what he's what if he's not doing terrible things as Mayor. What if he's kind of walking the line because he's had his pain healed and now he's like you have to believe as the what if?

What if they convince us as the audience that Fisk isn't such a bad guy anymore, and then we have to take the ride where we're kind of disagreeing with Matt, Like, I love the fact that it could all it could go anyway, and the morality of it could be really really blurry. I mean, that's why I've always said that Daredevil Season one was a big part of starting the podcast that and Marvel Civil War, because for me, those

are both stories that are so morally gray. Like I've often said, I think Daredevil Season one is kind of like fifty one percent a Daredevil origin story and forty nine per like it could be so close to a Kingpin origin story. I mean it is, but you know, in terms of him being the more heroic and as you kind of alluded to, I think even Kingpin, as he is like a lot of people in this country and this world, would think like, yeah, that's what we need. You know,

he is the and here's my take on what Echo did. And we'll definitely get to Echo herself in just a moment. But I want to talk more about Kingpin because I think his his portrayal in this is so well done and so good and so morally. I think it's so easy to be like, oh, he's just manipulating Maya the whole time. I don't believe that for a second. I think he is one hundred percent. He feels a family connection to her, and he very much loves her and wants to keep her

safe. He just doesn't A. He doesn't even know how to do that yet. Also like know, like to me, the scene with the ice cream vendor is so perfect because yeah, I mean you're you're now a parent, Matt, so you can speak to this more even more than I could. But like when I have friends who I know have like reasons that they would get teased or harassed, and I see that happen, there is a

part of me that wants to get violent and go hurt that person. And A I'm disabled myself and have never learned how to fight, so I couldn't do it. Anyway, but like, also, I think it's the wrong thing to do. But like, to me, part of what made that scene with the ice cream guy so perfect and like so uncomfortable is that I was like, yeah, I get him, and then looking at how intense it was getting, and then when you know, little Maya shows up, I was like, oh God, how traumatic is this going to be for

her? And my partner said, I hope she kicks him, and I was like, no, yeah, I kind of hope so too, but no, that's terrible. And then of course she does kick him, and it's just, yeah, okay, so I've got I'm gonna go in a different direction with this, but let you talk about that. Yeah, what was your take on that scene and kind of the whole his feelings Maya in

general? Well, they're two very different. What I love about this show is it, and you mentioned it in Daredevil being a great origin story for Fisk. This is another great Fisk story sitting on top of this Echo story, and it's it's great for both of them, and that scene means something

different in both of their tails. It is Fisk had a lot of pain and trauma and he is a broken, broken person who doesn't understand love and that hammer represents something really dark to him, but he thinks it represents freedom. We'll talk about the hammer scene. The hammer scene is I think one of the most interesting scenes in the whole show. But that is the scene we're talking about Fisk. One of the things that first, let me talk about it for Maya. First, I'll just have to pick pick a person

here, Maya. For me, it was interesting to think about that scene. I think it was episode four that it started. And then the fifth scene which is before her mother dies, and it kind of shows she out of curiosity and like adventure shoots a baby, shoots a bird with the with the rock right, and then she immediately has all this empathy for the bird, the hurting bird, and wants to go like see it saved. But

then after her mother dies, she has no empathy. Like the reason Fisk is fearful when of him seeing her it is because children have an innate empathy when they see someone hurt and then they and and he's scared that he'll see her. Fisk is the monster who hurt this poor vendor, even if he was the bad guy in this moment, you know, but she after her mother dies has that same trauma, and she's like, I have I have

trauma and I don't know how to I don't know how to heal. And now she's losing her empathy, and I think that's like, I think that's a very deliberate thing. So for her, I think that moment is showing her sort of beginning down sort of a dark path, you know. And for Fisk, it's this moment of I found someone broken like me, I found someone that also, you know, at that young age, like at my young age, when I was young, I killed my father with a

hammer. This child sees this bloody mess on the ground, breathing or not, can't even tell, blood dripping down his face, and just wants to kick him, and he sees himself in her. So I agree with you. I don't think that that scene is a like I don't sorry, I don't think that scene is I'm sorry, my brain is facing edit edit edit, So I think we're Are you trying to say that you don't think that scene is him trying to me? I think that scene, I don't don't

think that scene is showing us a Fisk that is. I don't think this whole show is him manipulating her because I think he genuinely needs someone who understands him, the same reason he loves Vanessa, the same reason Vanessa works is because when she finds out when he blows up all the Russians in season one of Daredevil and she sees him do it, she doesn't turn away. She

turns toward him. She wants to be with him because the power he's projecting, but she is just like him and doesn't turn away, like Vanessa doesn't turn away from the horrible things that Fist does. I mean, in some ways, I feel like and I never really put it together until they just heard you describe it so well. The Echo Fisk relationship is very similar to

the darker tellings of the Batman Robin relationship. You know, if you look at things like Titans and some other things that are really from Dick Grayson's perspective, where there's an extent to which, like Bruce Wayne both he recognizes, yeah, that Dick Grayson is in a similar place, and a part of him wants to prevent that. But then when he realized that, when like Dick Grayson, sees what Bruswayne Batman is doing, he's kind of like, Okay, well, I guess he is going to be like me, and

so I need to train him in that regard. Man, that is a great point. That's a really really solid point. They both lost parents in traumatic ways. They both well one killed parents, but you know, it is very much the dark side of that. I love that. Yeah, And I think part of it is also to me. I think you're completely right about how Maya has lost empathy, and I think one of the I

think the loss of her mother is a big part of it. But I also think when basically her grandmother is in so much pain and so much anger over the loss of her own daughter that her grandmother can't have empathy for it. I think from Maya's perspective, she sees a total lack of empathy from her grandmother. Yeah, you know, and then she goes to the school and a lack of empathy from the ice cream guy and a lack of empathy from the teacher. Really, yeah, she leaves her community that is all

about empathy for her. Everyone in her community knows asl because her mother was deaf, and they're all like communicating in a way that shows they care about her. And that's why I think the fact that Fisk never learned is real

evidence to the fact that he does not know how to love. Like like I I I not that like every person in a person's life that is deaf has learned asl but like if he he's been, he's been in her life, her entire life, twenty years, twenty twenty five years, and like he's never learned, and she calls him out for it, and you know, like he convinced that. I thought, it seems like such a great moment when he invinced the he brings that the contact that allows her to hear

him. I thought it was so cool. But then also it's like keep spent his money instead of actually taking the time to learn. Yeah, I think that's the thing is like you know the stories you hear about like kids with rich parents where it's like, you know, daddy tries to buy my love and stuff like that, and I think sometimes it can be a sign

of a real lack of affection. And now, but I think, like, you know, I had this with my parents a little bit, my father, you know, where I did think it was you know, you learn that money is often the way to solve problems, and I think to me, that technology, which I definitely want to talk about, is a part of it. But another part of it is, you know, she gets in trouble with the police, and she calls him and he shows up

like an hour later. It's clearly that same night, and he has with him an interpreter who he is comfortable talking to about talking to Maya about some of the criminal parts of what he's doing at a very early moment. And clearly he doesn't trust that interpreter entirely, as we find out later when he

has her killed. But to me, what that showed was is that he was very conscious of the fact that there was a member of his family who he needed to be able to communicate with, and he had taken proactive efforts to be ready at a moment's notice to do that. But as we found out, he did it by throwing money at the situation instead of actually learning.

And for me, I think this is so important and that it like I think, if you just write off that as oh, he doesn't really care about Maya, that's why he used the technology instead, it's all wrong and part of why this is so important to me. And here let's get into the representation of it a bit. And again I want to point out I am not deaf myself. I am disabled, which is not exactly the

same but has a lot of overlaps. A lot of deaf people are very adamant that death is not a disability, but it's a different way of being physical in the world that you have often heard me say, I think I've said it on the MCU cast or does send on my own podcast a bunch of times that I and a lot of other disabled people are often very frustrated with the idea that we get represented in like superhero shows, science fiction shows,

fantasy shows. But then very quickly people use the science fiction technology or the magic to basically erase our disability to the point where the character is not going through any of the things that disabled person really would go through, and so it kind of becomes like, Eh, well, this isn't really our

story anymore. What they did with that machine is the single best example I have ever seen of saying this is science fiction, so we're gonna use technology that no one's thought of, but it's not going to be to erase the disability. It's going to be to better bridge the gap, to help you help other people better, make a world that disabled people can better function in, or deaf people can better function. And again it's not being the same

thing, but in a way that doesn't embrace the disability. And it meant so I cried during that scene, and I think it's brilliant that they could both show that and be like, hey, like, clearly I think deaf people. We were working with them to be like, no, no, don't make She already said to Hawkeye that she doesn't want technology. She doesn't think being deaf is bad, it's just different. Don't make the technology to

fix her deafness. Make the technology to fix the fact that he doesn't know how to communicate with her, you know, Like to me, it would be the equivalent if like, you know, Tony Stark or some other like super you know, maybe Reary Richards or someone like that, or to invent Reary Williams. I'm sorry. You know, you have a character in a wheelchair, give them something where like they can press a button and like nanotech will shoot out and create a ramp to go up to any step, right,

like amazing technology that does this in our own world. But it's still not about like fix a racing the disability. It's just about making the world more accessible to the disabled person. So to me, it was so brilliant that they could both do that. But also then as a further beat to the story, be like, yeah, this is amazing tech and this is

a much better representation way of doing it. But also it's a sign of the brokenness of their relationship that he still doesn't want to just he wants to throw money at the problem and buy the tech instead of just actually learning how

to communicate with her. Yeah, it's a really really complex and interesting moment because the first thought, my first thought watching it was like, this is such an amazing overture that he like that he made this device that like can communicate, but it's still isn't him learning, isn't him taking the time, It's him throwing money. It's the problem I I and also like watching it, I had a real sense of like, is this is this hold on?

What's that noise? Sorry, there's a truck beeping outside, which is

Weird're not hearing it. So it's weird because I'm not near the street at all, So like, I think they must be backing up my driveway to deliver a package or something, but like it's it's it's funny that I don't ever hear trucks and I'm in my office that is intentionally the furthest away from the street, you know, anyway there Oh you say, oh, yeah, I had a real sense of this could be I don't know if that kind of technology exists in the world at all or could or has, but

yeah, I got a real sense of this could be a Star Trek communicator situation, where like they they created Star Trek Communicator and then thirty years later they had flip phones for the same reason, because those geeks were watching that show that that's technology seems so doable. It's just animations over a like over an augmented reality situation with with easy translation software, like you could do that, like the right the right person could probably put that together in a fairly

quick amount of time. I was like, man, this is totally a doable thing. And I was like, wow, that's cool. And if it doesn't exist, I can't imagine someone didn't see that and go that's very doable and I could do that tomorrow, you know. I thought that was very cool, but but it did the revelation about the characters is what's most

important. And one thing if you noticed too, he does use sign throughout the show, but only very manipulative phrases like we are family, you know, like he's just like he uses these like I love you maya like stuff like that, just like he uses them in the most manipulative way, only phrases that. And I don't even think I genuinely think he wants to be in her life. He wants love from her, but he doesn't know how to give love, and he doesn't know how how to not be manipulating and

just trying to get what he wants out of her, you know. Yeah, Well, and that's I think, at least the last question I want to ask you, and then let's talk more about Echo herself. I think that, Yeah, Like I think it's easy to write him off as he never really loved her, is just using her. I don't think that's the

case at all. I think that one of the things that is that we are seeing Kingpin at a time when he is still carrying He's still very more conflicted about what he did to his father, and a part of him still feels an awful lot of guilt about that. And when I took away from that very end scene is that she heals his pain, but a lot of the pain that she heals is, like I said, the guilt that he

has about that. Like I think even in that scene with the ice cream vendor, not that he regrets it, but it's kind of like the like, Okay, I kind of lost control of myself. This is maybe not the best I don't want It's like, I don't want to see my at my worst. You know, it's the monster that he is and that he like, it's the it's the Jeckyll to his hide or whatever, or the

hide to his Jeckyl. I don't know he he's scared. He both like knows that he uses that side of himself and needs that side of himself, but also I think he's obviously ashamed of that side of himself. And that's why Echoes so special to him, because she saw it and didn't shy away.

Eactly, yeah, she doesn't. And that's where I think that the I think you're right that in some ways I think Echo may have made him and even more of a villain because she takes away his guilt, she takes away his shame, and that kind of tells him, no, you did that. You protected your mother, you did the right thing. You can

protect the city in the same way. That's a really interesting interpretation. I took it very differently, but I took it as she got out of his pain, and I have no idea what that means for him, Like, yeah, a Fisk without his pain, without his trauma informing all of his decisions, and without him basing everything on that powerless little boy, and that's why he seeks power. I don't know who is Fisk without that? And

like, I don't know. And that's what I think is such so fascinating about ending the show this way, both there and ending the show with the Mayor thing. It's like this could go so many different ways, and like her healing of him could mean so many things, but I don't know what it means, and I like, I'm completely enraptured by the idea of finding out, Like I'm so into it, so into it as well. Let's talk about Maya. Let's talk about Echo then, and nice, simple,

easy ethical question. Is Maya Lopez a hero? Not yet? Well? I mean she clearly Okay, lots of things I've been saying not yet all season but obviously this last episode. I've just watched last episode, so I'm kind of reframing everything. We watched it late last night on cast it about it. I think, clearly the ending she is taking heroic actions to save

her family, but that in itself I don't think shows heroism. Fighting for the people that you specifically care about, yeah, doesn't necessarily make you a hero, And I think she's a bit of an anti hero. Clearly, she's done some terrible things. She's turned over a new leaf, it seems, in the way she saved her family, but at the end she's her healing of Fisk is both a beautiful thing because it's her choosing to use this

power she can. She has these glowy hands that she can either fight with or like hurt people with, or heal people with, and she chooses to heal in that moment, and I think that's freaking beautiful. I love it. But in that in that thing, she says, you are my uncle, like so, so is her doing that a real choice of from empathy or is it a choice from uh like another person that she just needs in her life that she has has always known as her uncle and she wants to

see him better, you know, wants to see him healed. She doesn't want to hurt him. I think I think one thing that that scene reveals is Fisk was right when he said, I saw the look on your face. You were happy to see that I was alive. And like I think she I think she she's she did it in a rash moment, but like she cares about Fisk, which makes this relationship and all of her decisions way more complicated than just the hero did the thing the hero. The hero didn't

just turn the other cheek. You know, it's not the hero to turn the other cheek. Story. I do think that she had a very luke Skywalker moment with the hammer, and that is you strike me down, you know, like like that the Emperor is. He's playing the Emperor and and Vader when he says, you know, kill me with this hammer and you'll be free, because really that will just cause her to forever be in the cycle of violence. That hammer scene is so fascinating to me because it's here's

the hammer, kill me right now, and you'll be free. And he said I had to do it. I had to do it to be free. Do you think Fisk is free. No, he's still in that freaking bedroom yelling about his father beating his mother. And that's because he just accepted the cycle of violence and continued it. Now, he was a victim at that point, his mother was a victim. He did, but he never healed from those things. I think that's what the healing Maya gave him is

supposed to represent. But I just don't know what it means for the future. I just think so much of this I love, I love it. I love it all. I love it all. I love what you said there. But the only difference I think is and this is where I think it's he's more like Vader than he is the Emperor. I don't think Kingpin and anyway thinks he's going to live through like I think Kingpin is both kind of inviting her into the cycle that he wants to be free of. Yeah, oh yeah, I think. No, I agree. I think a

part of it is because he is somewhat like he is. Like, I think he is so hurt by the idea that something with this what he saw as a loving, familiar relationship has been so broken that there's a part of him that's like, yeah, if you are in some ways. It's a perfect test where he is like, I don't want to live if Maya, the person I thought was my family, hates me that much, and so this is the way to test it. If you hate me enough to kill me, then I don't want to be alive. And I want to you

know. And I think that's the like and yeah, and it's you're right, It's it's just it's, oh, this is and like I like the Disney I think the Disney Plus shows have been good. WandaVision was great. You know, I really love some other things, but this is the kind of like like and then I know people who are out there who are like, oh my god, there wasn't enough fight scenes. There was this, There wasn't that. To me, this is the like, deeply ethically rich

stuff that I love so much. The only the only thing I would just say, and I love what you said about being a hero, because yeah, to me, the two things that most make someone a hero are one that they're willing to recognize the difference between trying to do the right thing versus acting out of vengeance and and you know that kind of thing, And to me, I think that's the fundamental star Wars question, which once again you bashed on Star Wars, on the Star Trek, a recent episode of Star

Trek Quest, and a Star Trek Universe podcast. I have a corrective email to send to you about that that we'll get to another time, but I don't even remember. Just flows out of me, you know, I'm so angry there. Oh yeah, it's the fan host Wanda moment right there, and I'm Wanda, but like we actually that means something works in today's world.

But anyway, you know what I mean, Uh, Doctor Strange and all that put aside, the point being that, I think the other important part of being a hero is yeah, that that is you're not just defending your own You're you're not just defending yourself and your family. You're defending the defenseless. You're defending people who aren't part your group. To you hate to me. I think what was so brilliant about this was it was like seventy

five percent of a hero origin story. Yeah, because it is her moving past or desire for vengeance. It is her you know, moving to a better place and accepting that healing can be a power. But she's not quite there. Of like, I'm gonna go save a whole bunch of people who I don't care about because bad things are gonna happen. And I think it's what I think in a lot of ways, she's gonna wind up kind of

being to take the Batman thing again. She's gonna kind of want it being Catwoman to Daredevil's Batman, you know, in terms of the like much more morally gray, much less of a hero, but probably willing to do a heroic thing in part because of like her connection to Daredevil and and met Murdock inspiring her, not even inspiring her, but like helping to you know, because I think she's in a like one of the things I loved, and

that makes it sound like I think her story is in service to Mett Murdoch's. I don't think that's the case at all. I think she has her own story that I like that she's not just a one of the male hero now. And so I've been going on for a while. This is the last thing I'll say. I love that when they talk about all the different parts of the different Choctaw Warrior women who they've been highlighting, that one of the things they mentioned is ferocity. Mm hmm. Because you almost never hear

ferocity talked about as a positive trait for a character. It's kind of like a berserker thing. If there's one character in the entire MCU who I would say has like embodied ferocity, it's Kingpin, you know. So I just thought that was such an interesting like she's not gonna be your normal hero. She's gonna tap into things that we're not comfortable with heroes tapping into. But

she's someone we're gonna root for in a lot of ways. Yeah, man, I love that whole thing of a cunning strategy Ferocity loves those are your tools. I just loved it, Like those are your tools that you get from your ancestors, from this line of women that you come from. I thought that was so freaking cool and just like a way of stating her like the core of her character in a really non cheesy way. I in some ways, I obviously some people will think that's cheese. Her dead mother appearing

to her and like having an entire speech. I keep uh yeah, I kept trying to like reframe a lot of what was going on through like because I really like a show when it like dances on the line, is this religious experience really happening or is it not? You know what I mean? And this show, when when she finally like spread her powers out to her uh, her cousin and her grandma and they started fighting, I was like,

oh, no, this is happening. This is fully like they fully Everything up until that moment was like, even when she pushed the train, it was like, that could have just been her believing that that's what allowed her to out of that situation. It could have been a change in the you know, the chain itself with a combined with the train changing directions slightly

or something. You know, it could have been anything. And uh but until that when when the grandma starts beating up the thugs, I was like, Okay, that's not really Yeah, that's the I can't I can't headcanon

this anymore. But yeah, it was one of my only quibbles. I did wish that they'd kind of done a little bit of a forced ghost thing with Maya's mother because in a show, granted, comic movies have gotten me very cynical about is someone actually dead, but particularly in a show where someone who was shot in the face is still alive, when her mother just showed up a part of me was like, wait, is her mother just still

alive? Like in an actual literal sense, because again, totally someone was shot in the head, so maybe she lived through a car accident somehow. Yeah, but yeah, it was really well done. Yeah for sure. I in the middle of it, And I said this on mcucast last night, in the middle of it, I said, what is this Disney shit?

Because and I didn't even mean it in a negative way. I meant it in a I was looking for a dark, gritty show about Kingpin and Echo, like just trying to kill each other, and suddenly I am weeping because a character is talking to her dead mother and like talking about the generations and how they empower her. And it was just so like it was such

a beautiful moment. I I didn't when I say Disney shit, I just mean like it was happy, Like it was just so freaking happy, and like, uh, I had a hard time like uh yeah getting back from that, Like I found myself crying through most of the last half of the show when all of her Another Star Wars connection and this this is the last mention of Star Wars was me like referencing Star Wars. This is me making fun of Star Wars. But how in the world did they pull off that

scene where all the ancestors appear better than Star Wars did? Like, I was so much more emotional when her It's because it was personal, Like I realized why, but it was her. Her family appears behind her as basically as you say force ghosts, but you know, without the blue translucence, all the force ghosts appear behind her to show the support of her ancestors. They do the same thing in uh, you know the lat was what's the

last one called the Rise of Skywalker. They do the same thing, but it like it's so impactful here, you know, it's the same moment, but it's so freaking good here. Yeah, and it makes me I'm so curious for Maya's character going forward because does she have powers now? Is one of my questions? Or is she just they say at moments of great Trial. They say it throughout the thing that at moments a great trial they come to people in their in their their ancestors and give them power to protect their

family sort of thing. Yeah, that's sort of how they go with And like that means that if that that that holds, I don't really want to see Maya become just uh, you know, captain glowy hands that can do cool things and heal whoever she wants and do whatever she needs. Like I kind of want these powers of hers to be rare. I want her to continue to use her her other things, the kind, the strategy, the fierceness, and I want her to like be awesome because she's Maya. And

then occasionally, oh, this is one of those moments. This is a This is one of the moments is where her she calls on her ancestors to do some big feat, you know, and that's always I want always to have the kind of impact that had here. I don't want it to become like that's just what she does in every fight, you know. Yeah, I mean like in some ways her story reminds you a lot of Jessica Jones, especially how Jessica Jones similarly was like, I don't want to be a

hero for a long time. And we know that Jessica Jones has like super strength and can kind of fly sort of kind of maybe, but like most of her stories, but situations where those powers won't actually fix things, you know, And I think kind of a similar way, it's the same way. I don't want, like you know, Danny Rand or Reary Williams, to like rebuild her prosthetic and make it totally different, you know. And just about that, I first of a out the powers. Then I'll get

to the ampute part. I have been part of why that first few moments through me, I do know there's an awful I'm not Native by any means myself, but I know there's a really long, awful history of white people kind of you know, mythologizing and like being like, oh, you know Native indigenous wisdom and like they have all these like mystical powers. And so when I saw some of that, I was a little like, You're not

going that direction, are you? And I think what becomes very clear as you go further is that no, everything about the chalk Tawk connections that she has is very authentic, and it's very much based in their mythology and their

understanding of things and their kind of visions of stuff. And I think that what I'd keep reminding myself was I have an idea of what it is supposed to look like when a dead person comes back to speak to someone, either just in their mind or in kind of a mystical supernatural way, or in something that's kind of a combination of it. I have an idea of what it looks like when the ancestors speak to you, and my idea comes out

of a very particular perspective and mythology set. That's not what this show is dealing with. And the Chalkton Nation itself, like there's a little thing at the very end of the last episode that says that they worked in partnership with them. If you go to the Choctaw Nation's own website, it has like a long thing about here's all the stuff that Echo draws upon and how connected

it was. And I think it is just I talk about representation all the time and how important it is, and I really think this show is a master class in how you do that right, in how you really do it. Not that it, you know, as the anti woke people will say, like, not that it like obliterates her character or obliterates any of the

amazing story beat moments we get or there's a great story. But it really felt like they did so much to make this very authentic to that background, to that history and to kind of invite others in but without being like, we're not going to dumb it down for non native folk. We're going to tell you the story as it would be from this perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very cool. And I you know, I I didn't give them any thought, but I do, like I am, I,

I I definitely like had to trust. I know they got creators and consultants on the show that we're putting putting a lot of effort into trying to make it more authentic, and so I I admit I've been giving it a lot of credit for just like, Okay, I'm assuming this is all authentic.

I'm not. I'm not doing a lot of digging myself, but I but I I I'm hopeful and just based on what I've heard the creators say and stuff, it seems like they're they're really drawing upon Yeah, they're they're myths, you know, And I think I'm not native, So like you, I'm kind of like, as an outsider, I'm trusting, but I'm also hearing that I'm hearing from a lot of deaf people and hard of hearing people that like they really felt very similar and how authentic was I can say as

an amputee, I won't speak for the entire empty community. I already had a Twitter argument with one person who was like, I'm an amputee, but wokeness is bullshit, and like, I don't want to be represented. I just want stories of you know, fine, but I think that like and I certainly heard a lot of my empty colleagues talk about this. It was for I felt one hundred percent seen by this character, Ayes. I think it's it really speaks to intersectionality and the interestingness of like, this is a

deaf character, this is a native character, this is a woman. I'm not any of those three things. I can't say I understand the character experience, but just the like, I'll give you one basic example. Misty Knight, I think, is another one of those things where it's like, yes, she loses a limb, but it's not the amputee experience that anyone else knows because her arm is cut off, and like, three days later, Danny Rand and his corporation have made her this amazing high tech arm for most

amputees. And I should say, by the way, that like, amputee is not the perfect term for people who are missing limbs, because some people are born without that in this case, the characters the amputee and the but like the people use prosthetic limbs who are similar. But for anybody who does lose their limb in any kind of traumatic way, it takes like think about any injury and how much it swells, like that entire area swells up and

is also incredibly tender. And also often there's muscle graphs and skin graphs that are needed. The idea that you're going to put anything on that for weeks, let alone months, is just ridiculous. Yeah, And so the fact that little girl Maya when she and her father are leaving Oklahoma to go back to New York, it's clearly been a couple of weeks, like her mother has been buried, she's out of the hospital, and she still has her stump bandaged, and she's not using a prosthetic leg yet. I was like,

that's what representation looks like, you know that? And then stuff like about how when her leg gets damaged and her grandfather has to help her rebuild it and the first version he makes isn't perfect and so she limps on it like just there were so many things like that, and then because to me, what I want to see is kind of my experience at its best, you know. And so I don't think I know how to have a fight where at some point I cock my prosthetic limb like a weapon and hold it

back so that I release it with even more force. But she did that and it was freaking awesome. It made for a great fight scene, and it felt like, yeah, is that stretching the bonds of stretching the bounds of credulity? Sure? Do I care? No, because any less realistic than you know, Tony Stark building the first Iron Man suit in the cave, you know. So yeah, I just everything about it really spoke to They really were being serious about we want this to be a comic book story.

We want to have fun with it, but we're not gonna We're gonna tell a story about an actual amputee and understand what that experience is like. And it just made me so so happy and feel so so seen. That's awesome. Man. I found myself thinking more about it with the uh with the the deaf experience, just because it's so uh, it's it's it's very different from my own. And so there were a lot of things on the show where I was like, man, I like, I didn't even realize

that something would be different. Does that? Does that make sense? Like, oh, you don't even realize that this would be different in your life if this if you had this disability or uh not disability or difference. Yeah, yeah, so so so I love to hear that that you felt that way with the the the amputee portion of it when she the one the one part I wanted to ask you about, And did it seem to stretch the bounds of credulity? Uh? When when the grandfather was able to fix her

leg? Did that seem a little like far fetched? It did to me? And I don't know. I just know that, like there are various levels of prosthesis and like some can do a lot more than others. Clearly the one that Maya has been using in her fight sequences are is amazing.

But the fact that her uncle or her grandfather was able to do it and in a fairly quick manner and make one that in a few seconds later she was jumping off the house with I was like, that seems to strain that but like the strain realism, but like I'm going with it, But like you said, it's not much different than a you know, Tony start building it in the cave, building the ironman in the cave. So this is actually a great question and gets it, I think a part of the prosthetic

experience that most people don't understand. And like I hadn't even thought it in these terms, but you're right, it's one more way they get it very right. There are two parts to every prosthetic or at least every prosthetic leg, because that's what I know best about. There is the actual foot itself, and then there's the socket, which is what your leg plugs into and connects to. Okay, the leg itself is incredibly It can be very basic

or it can be very high tech. And like you think about that South African runner who then also I think like killed his girlfriend or like did something horrible, but like he he ran at the Olympics on these prosthetic legs that basically like gave him a huge advantage. And there's some interning conversations about because like, like even my prosthetic leg, which is still like if it's what insurance will pay for, it's the high end of what insurance will pay Forcause

I'm very prilugient I have a very good insurance. It has better shock absorbers than my car does. Like and I fully believe that Wilson Fisk could paint wood and could pay for the very top level of like foot that she could have, and like, to give an example, there are times where she like drops down and is fine with it. That would probably be painful for me because just I don't have quite a high quality. So like, if I drop from a distance in my foot lands, it like creates a reverberation

that goes up into my stump, but it's quite painful. But I fully believe that she has the foot that that's not a problem with the foot then attaches to a socket and the socket is you know, it's a plaster mold that is that it's built of to that fits around your your stump, and then there's a at the bottom of the socket is the piece that connects that to the foot. They were very careful to show that the foot itself was

not damaged. It was the socket and the way that the socket connects to the foot, because part of why I have trouble walking a lot is that in part because I'm heavier. This is not a fat shaming thing in the slightest. It's just the way bodies work. The more fat there is on something, and my stump has a good deal of fat, not just because of my own weight, but because of just I have a very short knee,

and so it's the way it's must. There's also biological details, but the point is it's hard to get a very good perfect fit, and so it wobbles a little bit. So like if I if I kicked someone, it probably knocked my whole leg off of alignment. Maya has a very well made one that fits her perfectly. When it's damaged as it is in that train scene, it's very hard for her and that's why. And he can

fix it to some extent. But if you notice, even after what her grandfather does, initially it doesn't work very well and she is still limping somewhat. It's only when she gets the finished version of it that he can.

And the first couple of times, like aprosthetic limbs made, I was expecting it to be this super high tech, you know, experience and the foot is that, But the actual making of the socket and everything else, it's just a guy with screwdrivers and pliers, like fuddling around the way someone would under the hood of like a nineteen seventies car. You know, it's very much a you know, like grease under your fingernails kind of mechanic experience.

It's not a high tech thing. That's really cool. That were they captured that. That's really cool. And clearly they knew what they were doing and knew what they were talking about. That's awesome because I saw that and I was like, I just know these things are these things are complicated, and it seems weird that he's just been able to rebuild it at all, much less get it working so quickly. But yeah, that's awesome. Yea,

that they were careful with that, that's super cool. It is. And I'll say, like, I think the implication is supposed to be in the same way that like the family learned asl I don't think any random mechanic could do it, but I think a mechanic could really learned and studied how to make prosthetics could do that. Yeah, And so in my head it's like, oh, of course he's been making prosthetics for her all of her life.

He knows how to do this. Then I realized, wait a minute, yeah, with her twenty years, So I was like, Okay, well that that part, but I can understand him being like I want her to be able to come back. Plus other natives are going to lose their legs and I'm probably not gonna have good health insurance to me, I have

to head canon a bit. Yeah, but I can very easily head canon that he decided to learn how to fix prosthetics a because the back of his mind he's hoping she'll come back one day, but mostly said he can help other people in his community and thus had the skills ready. Yeah, and I was curious about that too. One of the things we talked about in them seitcast is why they didn't really get into why the uh the grandparents get

divorced, and we kind of just headcanon. Slash talked about how it's very possible the trauma of losing their daughter and and and having to deal with that caused this riff, but also the fact that the grandmother refused to have contact with Maya's father and liked, you know, writing them off, that all of that seems very traumatic and very hard to navigate and very hard to make those choices as a unit, as like a married couple, So I got

I got curious about the possibility, and I don't know, but it's possible

that he may have had more contact with her than the grandmother had. And clearly when she went to town, he was the one she went to, like He's she didn't go to that, So it's possible he has worked on her leg before, even if it was just when she was younger or as a child, then once she because it seemed like Bonnie also pot they were very unclear with when Bonnie and Maya stopped talking, like it was it was clear that the grandmother didn't want them talking, but then after the death of

her father, it seemed like she didn't want to talk to any of her family at all because of the dark road she was taking, you know, like it seemed that way. But they never are very explicit about it, because we never really have evidence one way or the other what happened between the time that she left for New York and the time that that she comes back, like did they have any contact for those twenty years or whatever, And it's not real clear. Yeah, I think it's really true, and I

think there's there's room to explore it. But I also felt like, yeah, I don't exactly know, but but it all makes sense to Yeah, I believe in gaps and the information allows us to do things like d Cannon that, Yeah, maybe the grandfather worked on it a few times, like yeah, whatever, Like maybe they came back to visit twice. Then he got to do a little bit of tinkering and that informed his ability later. And like you said, a good story is such that you don't get caught

up in the exact details exactly. Yeah, like until we go on a podcast, and then we get and cut up in the details regardless, and that's the point and we enjoy it. There's so much more we can say about this, and I'll that you have a couple last words, but I just want to say, uh, because we barely talked about the family. But I just want to say the actress who plays Bonnie, who I know also is the voice actress for a native character. Yes, that I have

not seen yet, but I want to see it. But there's one scene in particular that I was like, three minutes is not enough to win an Emmy, but I think this may be one of the best three minutes of

acting I'll ever see in television. This year, where you know, if you're interpreting in theory, you're supposed to be kind of like dispassionate about the information you're passing back and forth because you have to be, because you have to be able to translate it. And so the scene when she is the interpreter as King Pitt is explaining that he is going to kill Bonnie, like she is having to interpret a threat to her own life, yeah, as

though she's not in it. And just the way that the actress was able to carry the horror and the upsetness on her face without losing a beat and translating, and that she was having to struggle so much to do it, but she did it. I was just like, I can't imagine what that moment is like, but I feel like I am seeing it in this acting performance, and it was just so well done. It is the terror on her face and the like urgency at which she's signing because she needs ma to

understand what's going on. And one of my favorite things about that scene is unrelated to acting, which I agree with you is stellar, but one of my favorite things about that scene is she never hears the third phrase, she never has it interpreted because there's this really rhythm to the scene where Fisk says some thing, cuts over to Bonnie signing it, Fisk says something, cuts over to Bonnie signing it, and then Fisk says something and as she's turning

to like see what he's saying, a one of the thugs come in and comes in and punches her, and it's like a very like oh yeah, he gets interrupted, and it's another one of those moments where like, oh, the fight scene started and we as the audience and Maya were in this

experience of just not finding out. We just don't get to find out because the interpreter wasn't given time and it's just like a really small moment, but it's like one of those things will if you just don't have the interpreter available in that moment, you don't get it, you know. And it was it was another just like great moment of that experience. You know. It's

funny. I was talking with a friend about how kind of one thing we liked about it is it is really fun in the more traditional MCU when you know a hero does something great and that has a really quippi line, you know, like Peter quill or someone like that says something really funny as he finishes a fight. Well, like, it would make no sense for that

to happen in this because that's not what she's doing. But also in realizing like while she's using her fists, she can't come up with a quippie long you know, like she could never be Spider Man because like the way she talks is also the way she fights. Oh yeah, good point, good point. Yeah. I thought a lot about that when she's tied, when her hands are tied behind her back, because it's not only uh, not only is she physically tied, but she's barred from communicating as well. By

tying, he has basically gagged as well. Yeah, without gagging, she's gagged. I think that was really it just these moments you don't think about when you don't read that experience, and it's so cool to see that on screen and just get that oh oh yeah, that's totally different than my experience. That's different and I would have never ever even thought about it, and like that's to me. It's also a great counterpoint where there she's tied up

in a way that her disability makes harder. Contrasts that to when she's tied up by the ankles, right and by the way when you concept like this that separation I talked about between leg and socket, that's how she gets out. Is she separates her leg from her socket, like tying up someone's legs when you're kind of a mister potato head and can you know, takes part of the part like doesn't work as well. And so yeah, I didn't

even thought of that. I don't even know if that was intentional. But having one scene where she's tied in the way that makes her other disability even harder, but another scene where she's tied up and because of her disability she

can get out, which it's just really cool. And you know, the way she fights, as you mentioned with like cocking her leg back and springing it forward, it is you know, it's the h and when the train crushes her leg and the fact that she had that leg's already gone and it's still it's still an important thing because she still has to get her prosthetic repaired, but it is it is you know, obviously not as painful and not

as uh, not as traumatizing the the uh. It's these moments in the show that show her disability for being aage at times too, and it's a whole like, you know, you used to be a phrase not disabled, differently abled, and I'm sure people use it at times, but like this was just a real example of that throughout the show, where her her abilities as an amputee were like different in different situations that's helped her or hurt her, And it's sort of this like, uh, it just is showing how

that experience can be just so different from ours, from from mine. And yeah, I thought it was very cool. I mean, as someone who gets to park wherever I want, whatever I want because of my disability, Like I totally got that. Yeah, yeah, there you go. I would ask if you have any last thoughts, But the fact is, if people want to hear Matthew Carroll's last thoughts on MCU and first thoughts and middle thoughts, there's five episodes now on the MCU podcast, which is fantastic.

I'll give you a chance to talk about it into a second, but is there any last things you want to And we will be doing a bonus section maybe quick like ten minutes because it's gone pretty long, but we will be doing a bonus section about more one of the Defenders coming into the MCU and kind of our hopes and thoughts about that or into this versus of the MCU. But Matt, any of the last things you want to say as part of this conversation, Oh, Man, not really. I just appreciate you

having me, and it's good to be here. Hadn't been on the Superhero ethics in a long time and always good to be here, man, And I just yeah, I love this show. I think this show is really really cool, and I love that it is so meaty for representation and so meatiaf to have new conversations and so like just it's just really really a great

show. And as you mentioned, shows with ethical questions, I think the Defenders were particularly good with that, and this show, again, I think is just hitten out of the part with a lot of that and some of it I don't even understand the repercussions of yet, and we're gonna have to

wait and see. And I think that's really cool too, the fact that they're trusting the future storytellers in the Spotlight Arena to pick up the ball and run with Maya story, and run with fifth story and see where it goes from here, you know, yeah, I definitely think so. I'm I'm nervous about that, just because with the MCU so much has been like started and then canceled. And I do know there is a strong fan reaction of dislike to the show so far. I think there's a lot of fans who

abolutely love it. I think it's a strong majority, but there are I guess, I don't sure, some people of legitimate reasons, but there's also some folks who are I had one person who was like, oh, this is all woke nonsense. Who's trying to convince me there's an amputee I should

hate this show. And his reasoning was, if you remember, she loses her leg in the car accident, and it happens because like you know, when the car breaks, there's this like large shard of glass that goes into her leg, and that is very realistic in terms of like if you cut the femeral artery that goes to the leg, and like that leg loses blood, like it's going to die pretty quickly and like you will have to amputate it. People I know are coming after me and being like no, but

like a windshield doesn't break like that. A large piece of glass wouldn't come out like that, and so therefore everything about the show is ruined and terrible. And I was like, look, maybe that's true about the windshield,

but I just couldn't possibly care less like that. But my point being with all that, given all of the dislike that it's generating, as well as just like some of the discussions around like the Marvels and other stuff, I am worried that we're not going to get as many of these stories as we want. Sure, or it may well be that we get it entirely in Daredevil's story, which I think will be great. I Echo gets to be a big part of it. But yeah, I like you. I'm very

excited. We'll talk more about that in the motu section, and just yeah, it just makes me really happy as a Marvel fan. And I'm now going to go back and watch what If. And Loki isn't my show, so I probably won't watch that, but I'll watch some other stuff. Do man so much, and that's our time travel difference, But man, I love Loki so much. It's Loki is a show built for me. Like the it I hope you, I hope one day you'll get to see it. And they are all you'll decide to see it because I think it ends

so beautifully and in really cool way. It just has some really coolness to it. I may well, but I also think that's another to me, a part of this, like this is going to be getting back to all the topic because with you and I, like you and Paul were really bad at ending things at least the time we're not trying to get the last word on each other and in a disagreement, which poor Jeff used to have to

moderate those. But like, to me, I think one of the there's a difference between a large connected universe where all these individual stories happen, but like you're always remembering that's happening in a world after the blip for example, you know, and like that's changed the world that's different than everything is feeding

into this larger overall plot, you know. And I think like if I found out that Wilson Fisk was somehow working for King in some way or you know, like that kind of thing, I'd be like, Eh, I don't want this right, but but yeah, I I I do really love that. It is just the I'm trying to think where in the world that was going with that. What were we talking about right before the Loki?

Oh? Yeah, so the point the point that being, I think another advantage of that is if I don't need to watch every single thing to understand every single thing, they can take more risks. They can have a show like Loki, which time travel people will love and isn't for me. Well

they might. They might have a show that's just Matt Murdoch and she Hulk trying cases together and they get in a fight once every three episodes, but it's just a lego drab and I love that a lot of other people won't, you know, Like there's just so many things, like we can have things that are not made for everybody in a lot in the Spotlight. Yes, yeah, And I think that's that's what I was saying earlier. I think we've all strived for this connected universe to be even more connected. But

I think there's a balance to that connection. And I think that's something that we've we've known for a long time that there's a bad to the connection. But I think that they're they're recalibrating that right now at Marvel because of the sort of lack of success of some of these Because I don't think they've made you when you compare phases four and five. People have talked about the overload or whatever, but when you compare phases four and five, there's not that

much. I don't think there's more television than there was during the Defenders. I think it's probably very similar amount of television when you when you include Defenders and Agents of Shield and all that and and Runaways and but back then they let things be separate a little more, and it's something I didn't like about

it. I was like, more connected, But now I'm like, you know what, they tried it. They tried to be more connected, and they lost half their audience because like so many people were like, there's so many people out there, like like myself, that's a completest. And I don't like watching the next thing until I saw the last thing. And so if a thing comes out and it's not really my thing and I fall off and I don't watch whatever, then I feel like I've lost a rung in

the ladder. And the more connected things are, the more that is. And I think they're because more people feel that way. It's it's it's good to have shows for different audiences. And I think they're they're they're moving towards that. I think, Yeah, I feel like the kind of three main universes that, like, you know, between the two of us and like your other podcast that we cover, Marvel, Star Wars and Star Trek are

all wrestling with how to do this? You know for a sure show that there's a lot of this conversation and just it's gonna be fascinating to see how it all comes around. So well, thank you again, Matt. Yeah, who are members? You know, five dollars a month, You get ad free content, you get bonus content, and you help support us. It is fantastic. All the information about how to join is right there in the show notes. Please do so. But also I assume if you're listening

to this, you probably already know about the MCU cast. I think it is the absolute premiere, as I think it's the mere superhero podcast out there, but absolutely the MCU one. Matt, tell us a little bit about MCU cast or where you can find it. Thanks man, it's very kind. Yeah, we were at the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast. Everywhere you get podcasts, so if you like the Marvel cinemat Universe, we talk about it

every week, and you know, it's just it always surprises me. Sometimes there's not content for a few weeks and I'm like, well, will we talk about And then we get on and we're like, there's always so much to talk about. There's so many ways to go with it. And honestly, a lot of that is thanks to our listeners who's writing a lot of things, and we get great feedback that like spurs on cool convers excuse me, cool conversations that we never would have had otherwise. And I think I

just I love being on the show. I love the community, and I love love, love making it for you, for you listeners out there. So if you like the Marvel Cinemat Givers, check us out Marvel Cinemat Giver's podcast. And there is of course other podcasts that Matt's very involved with where you can hear him give like good updates about news that's happening in the multiverse. You can hear him heretical slander against Star Wars while he's talking about another

Star show. Gives like a quick rundown about some of the other stuff you're

on. Yeah, one of the ones we're really really focused on this year, building Up is Multiverse News, and it is a week week, week to week news news show where we really put a ton of work in honestly, like it's it's the most work intensive show we've done on that I've done on the network, because we actually like research and write the news up and like have I'm the sort of anchor on the show, and I read read the news and then we discussed and have sort of a panel show about all

the news stories that are going on that week, and we expand a little far beyond those three universes you mentioned. We do talk about all those, but we also get into everything else just in mostly in the geeky realm, but sometimes we're just talking about what's going on in the box office and what we like, know, Taylor Swift was big in the box office this year. You know, Barbie was big in the box office this year. So

Urbenheimer and Taylor Swift became common topics on the show. Like you know, it's sort of just whatever is happening in pop culture we'll kind of get into and that good even even did dip our toe into video games and stuff. So it's just Multiverse News. Any we say, we're your your source for information about all your favorite fictional universes. So that's one we're really trying to

grow and we're really putting a lot of effort into. So I hope you guys will check that one out too, And then everything else is at strandedpana dot com. We have something for every every universe and every show. Probably at this point something's going on. So yep, yeah, there's so much great stuff to check out there. Stranded Panage does so many wonderful things.

There's Animation Deliberation, which does all this stuff about animated stuff. There's the Star Trek Universe pot Star Trek is Yeah, there's a Star Trek Universe podcast. There are just so many good things you guys got going on. Source Notes, which is all about like the book. Yes, source pages, shorts pages, thank you, thank you, And of course this is an

Ethical Pana podcast. You can find this along with Star Wars Generations by going to the Ethical Pana dot com or by searching for us on the True Story FM Family web web podcasts. Love contact Information. What do you think of the echo? I already did one kind of quick reaction. This is a little bit more of a deeper, particularly for more the that was more focusing on representation. This was more about like the comic book side of things.

But I would love to hear what you all have to say. Our contact is in the show notes. Please check all that out. Please really seriously considered becoming a member because it's such a good way to support us, such a good way to help keep things going, and you get a lot of great content. We're going to be starting a book club pretty soon for Star Wars Greed, possibly for Superherotics as well, so members stick around on the

behalf of but for everybody else, I'm half of myself and Matt. We have spoken