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Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Friends. If you go back to the very beginning of this podcast, I think the first, if not some of the first episodes that Paul and I talked about were about Batman.
He is the character who I think, for both of us is one of our absolute favorites and not our favorite, and certainly when we keep coming back to because I think, when done right, his story raises so many of the issues and questions that this podcast is most interested in, things like vigilanteism and who gets to decide what is right or wrong and what to do about that, cops in a corrupt world, all of these kind of questions wealth And so when I found out that there was
another addition to the Batman ouvra, the recent show called Batman Cape Crusader, which usually enough is not coming out on Max, even though I'm pretty sure Max is owned by Warner Brothers the DC connection there. It's on Prime. So there's a story there that I'm not sure about which readers know about, please let us know. But once I saw that to come out, I knew that I wanted us to watch it, and I knew wanted Paul to watch it with me, and my first thought, as
I know Paul was very busy. He doesn't always get to watch things, so I want to check in with him, and he said he'd already watched all ten episodes. I thought, Okay, I've got my homework. Let's do this. So Paul, let me just start by asking you before even going to the show, let's kind of do a check in for people who haven't gone all the way into our back catalog, what are you feelings on Batman as a character.
I like Batman as a character. Batman is one of my favorite characters. One of the things I really enjoy is that there are many iterations of Batman, and some of them I like a lot more than others, which I guess we'll probably get to here some of those instances.
But the thing I think I've always liked about Batman is just that, you know, Batman's a character who based had you know, who had tragedy early on in life, which you know I had some of, and thus found that kind of relatable, and then basically decided like, this is something I don't want to happen to other people, So I'm going to try and do something about it in whatever way I feel I can, and I think the fact that Batman does that in a way that's
outside of the system, the I think not super healthy system is something I appreciate. Obviously that may or may not work in reality, and in various Batman stories it works better than others. But for me, it's mostly like just the idea of having conviction in something and then just taking extraordinary action as a result of that conviction, and then also like just wearing black all the time, you know, that's the other that's that's the other half, those two things. Yeah.
I often think about how much the nineteen eighty nine Batman Tim Burton Michael Keaton really shaped a lot of my identity and ideas of high school, and how much he became the superhero I cared about, particularly because I think it's interesting. I think you and I have very
different approaches to Batman. All that you just said I think is interesting and important and would be on my list of reasons why I like Batman so much, but probably like near the bottom because for me, it's really about the idea of the ethical questions about it, because I think it's a theme that we've come up with a lot, especially when Jessica Plumbers come on. She's very much a Superman fan, and kind of we tease each other about like are you a Batman person or a
Superman person? I grew up with a Christopher Reeve movies and they were fun, but as I got older, I didn't believe them, Like they're very much based on the idea of could this person exist who is super not just because of his power set, but because you can absolutely trust him not to abuse those powers, and that that's in many ways always felt that's more of the fantasy than the idea that he has these powers to
begin with. And I think what I loved about Batman is that from the first they were always much more about the moral complexities about it, you know, and even like sometimes it's really about like should he be doing this in terms of like is it helping the city? Is should he be more of a vigilante or less? The way that I think the Who's directed The Dark Knight.
And Christopher Nolan, Yeah, sometimes I think it's about like as it a Christopher Nolan movies, particularly The Dark Knight, sometimes it's more about just for him personally in terms of like how he's working through trauma, and I think a recurring.
Story as always like is this actually helping him with
his trauma? Is this a good way for it to deal or is it is it doing more harm to Bruce Wayne than it is good for the city And how he balance those things and stuff like that, and I one thing I was thinking about a lot in terms of this is that you know, we hear so many debates about canon and about like what is real or not, And for example, with Star Wars, I know that you know, you and I have talked a lot about how Luke Skywalker is treated, and like, I really
love the way Luke was treated in Last Jedi Eve very much did not that's totally legit. But part of the thing is we only have one version of Luke, right. Batman is a character who I think part of what I love about him is that we now have so many versions told by so many people that were kind of beyond a discussion of canonicity, because every story it may exist in partnership with a number of other particular stories,
but it's one particular version. And I was thinking about, especially in terms of a phrase that you and I used a lot in particularly regarding the Batman of the Snyder verse, the ben Affleck Batman, which is not my Batman, right, which I think people sometimes hear that. I think sometimes people used it in the same manner of that very toxic like my version is the right one and all
the others are bad, et cetera, et cetera. Actually, what I love about not my Batman is to me, since I understood it, I think you would agree, but you can tell me if I'm wrong. It's a statement of saying, Look, there is no one definitive Batman. There are lots of different different Batman's out there. There are particular ones that I like and that feel right to my understanding of Batman. And so when I say Batleck was not my Batman, I'm not saying someone else is wrong for liking it.
I'm saying my opinion is that that doesn't fit the Batman idea that I really care about, Mike, And to me, that makes it a lot more interesting to talk about Batman because we're not getting into the like who's right or who's wrong. I mean, I have my feelings on that, but it's not about you know, are you a real fan or not it's just what part of Batman speaks to you? Did that sound right to you?
Yeah? Pretty much. I Mean, I'm sure people use any given hashtag in a number of different ways, right, But for me, I had a visceral negative reaction first to the casting news of Ben Affleck and then to the actual character in the movie Batman vs. Superman or vice versa.
Yeahs Batman versus sup anyway, But then I kind of had a bit of a moment of mostly I think because they kept coming out with animated films and I would go back and watch some of the others, and I was just like, you know what, this is okay that there's a lot of different Batman's, and in fact,
it's kind of cool, you know. And if the only Batman we ever got was live action Batman, and we were going to get one per decade or every twenty years, and then that was going to be the only one we had for like ten or twenty years, I think I would have felt differently, right, like it would have bothered me more like it bothered me at first. Then I was like, this isn't really a big deal, you know.
It's like, yeah, that's not my Batman. You know, and like when I then watched the Batman the Matt Reeves movie, I was like, in the beginning, I was like, Oh, this doesn't feel like my Batman. And then as the story went on, I was like, Oh, they're kind of telling a story of how you know, Batman becomes Batman, right, how he goes from being a guy on a quest of vengeance to being a guy who's like trying to do something more really, you know, right, and how he's
going about it differently. And also I left out, you know, the idea of like being a detective of really trying to seek the truth and then do something about it, as opposed to kind of assuming you already know the truth or just not even having the mental capacity the or the you know whatever resources to ascertain like what's
going on. And you know, stories of intelligence are always interesting to me, but then especially like how someone uses their intelligence and so and that's really maybe the most important aspect of Batman because like to me, like when I see Sherlock Holmes, I'm like, that's my Batman kind of, you know, like it's it's the same arc type in many ways, not exactly the same, right, There's differences of course, and Sherlock Holmes is often referenced in Batman's stories. Sometimes
that's like one of his mentors. Sometimes, like in this in The Kate Crusader, they refer to, Oh, I've read those stories too, you know they're there. They they mentioned them, and they allude to them, and you know, that idea of a character who really wants to know what's going on and is curious about the world and has the mental acuity to kind of like really see what's going on and figure stuff out. And so I really enjoy
that there's so many different Batman's. I mean there's literally ones where Batman is a man bat and I know there's a character called man bat but like where and actually I think that characters called Batman in It's that there's there's a lot of Batman stories, that's the point, and there's a great diversity of them, and I love that. And like here, we also get different versions of Penguin.
We get a different version of you know, harlen Quin's Out, we get we get a lot of characters more different than they were in something else. And that's cool because we know we're going to get another version again soon and so if we don't love this version, like, there'll be another version, and it's not like this is the one true story. It's like, no, this is a story. Enjoy it, don't enjoy it. Take it for what it is,
you know, get what you get out of it. And yeah, I just I appreciate that about you know, Batman's storytelling in general.
Yeah, there's a real what if element to it. And I want to say from the beginning, I think there's probably a lot more characters who in comic books. Just if you've been writing a comic book about someone for fifty sixty seven years, you're gonna have so much diversity and so many different writers and so many different ideas. The thing is that, and there are lots of great people who really focus on comics. Our friends at Hype is my Superpower podcast. They focus on Marvel comics, but
I highly recommend them. Both Paul and I are people who really love comic book characters but aren't really big comic book readers. I think Paul, you've read more than I have. But I think we agree that, like our main interaction with characters like Batman is on screen.
Yes, that's accurate.
Yeah, And so I think that for whatever reason, Batman is one of the few who has gotten so many iterations on screen, particularly with animation, but also just like if you're a gen xer or even an old and millennial, think about how many different actors have played a live
action Batman in your lifetime. In my lifetime, we've had Keaton Clooney, Val Kilmer, Ben Affleck, Robert Pattinson, if you want to stretch it a bit, the guy who played the voice of Lego Batman, you know, I mean, Yeah willernt thank you well.
In terms of live action, also, there's a one of the shows, right has oh.
Yeah, Gotam has young Bruce Wayne, and then the show Uh Titans, which is kind of the teen Titans TV show but live action as the guy who plays mormont As as an older Batman. Yeah. So they have just
so many different versions. And so with that, I think one thing I want to also touch on, just because you brought this up with the detective part that's so big, I think the thing that helps for me make Batman such an interesting raised so many interesting ethical questions, and I think it very much goes in with the detective because he always wants to learn more. Batman probably cares more about the motives of his rogues gallery than most others.
I think Spider Man is maybe the closest eval for sure, and because of that, Batman often has a lot of sympathy for a lot of the people in his rogues gallery, and it goes a lot beyond like Batman good villain bad in that Batman is for the most part, with some exceptions, you know, actively breaking the law, and there's a lot of ways which you could look at, like he raises all the questions like is a a vigilante
a good thing or a bad thing? His villains are doing actual harm to people, but often have somewhat understandable motives. Iceman being one of Iceman, Doctor Freeze, mister Freeze.
I'm name, he's also doctor Freeze though, right, because he's a doctor and his last name is Freeze Victor Freeze. Yes, but his his name is is you know, he goes by mister f who.
Is not defined by the bad puns as the Arnold Schwarzenegger version of him, would they think, But again, but yeah, that's so. I think that's the other really important part of him is that there's a lot more about who the rogue squad are and how they became villains, and most of them are very over the top, some of
them are very malicious and evil some of them. And I think we're still a good example in this In this show we'll talk about a second really don't understand that they're doing harm, and Batman often has a lot of sympathy for them, And like, I love that you
talked about vengeance. I think in many ways, Batman is one of the best stories we have about how to shift from wanting to do vengeance to wanting to work for justice or wanting to you know, prevent harm to others, and how there's a danger of falling into vengeance instead and all those questions.
Yeah, for sure.
So with that, let's start talking about this show. And I don't think you're gonna have to have watched the show in order to enjoy the conversation, but we will be spoiling a lot of things in it, So highly recommend if you can, you haven't seen the show yet, hit pause, go watch it. It's ten thirty minute episodes, so it comes out to you know, about five hourage or so. Content. It's I think it's very good. I think I've got some problems with that talk about, but
overall quite an enjoyable part of the story. But with that, Paul, what really struck you about this version of Batman?
Well, to begin with, I felt like this Batman himself was similar to the the Matt Reeves Batman right in The Batman where he was.
Notable Matt Reeves as an executive producer of the show.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, And like when I saw his name in the credits and that it like made it easier to make the connection. Okay, that's that's why he's calling him Pennyworth, not Alfred. And that's like kind of I mean spoilers, right, you just gave the spoiler warm Like by the end, he calls him Alfred. Like that's his big character moment. That's like Batman's big character moment is like he stops calling Alfred Pennyworth. He calls him Alfred,
he corrects himself. He's like, this is a person. I'm gonna treat him like a person that's important, you know, not just like he's you know, a servant, right and and not just like he's a cog kind of in the Batman machine. So in terms of Batman, I feel like he was a very kind of consistent, very much my Batman, who's not quite yet all the way by Batman,
you know, like he talks about vengeance. He he picks up a gun and fires it a number of times but scares him, I guess, and then he gets apprehended, not Batman. There's a whole thing about hunting down Batman, which like I can do without, you know, I'm like, okay, I've seen enough iterations of that story kind of you know, and and it never makes a ton of sense to me. It's it's it's interesting that the cops are just like shoot on site and they're really into shooting at people
in this story. You know, I think Batman himself is probably not at all the most interesting part of this story. I feel like this Batman is very much just like you know, he's who he is. He's a Batman that
I recognize as Batman. And I think actually the Gordons are two of the most interesting characters here, and you know, they talk a lot about you know, Barbara Gordon in this version is a public defender and her father, Commissioner Gordon, is a commissioner, right, and so he's already Commissioner he's in charge of the whole police department, and but he's
got pressure from the mayor's office. I had flashbacks to a wire conversation yep, during you know, think about this whole thing, and you know, Barbara and and her dad like have a lot of conversations about you know, what's the justice system doing? You know, is it is it doing good? Is it you know it's putting people behind bars in the way that they're doing it. Is this a good thing? Is this like what we should be doing?
Kind of? And you know, I'll say that, you know, the Matt Reeves Gordon and who's not yet commissioner, but you know in that version he's black, right, And it's not a big deal within the context of the movie.
I think they actually do kind of say something about that, right, that's kind of but maybe they don't think the movie so, but like it's still regardless of whether it's relevant within the context of the story or to what extent it is, I think it's obviously going to be relevant in terms of how the story feels living in our world right and watching it from from where we are, and and so to see Barbara, who in this story is also black, have this conversation with her father, the two of them.
I think that conversation about the justice system and what it's doing. Is it doing good? Is it doing harm? I think that conversation feels different when it's between two black characters than when it's between two white characters, which is what we see, I think a lot more often just because of you know, the demographics of television and movies really, but so I feel like, you know, here Barbara has a lot more agency than she does in
some other versions. You know, she's she's doing she's an adult doing adult things, and you know, she's friends with doctor Quinzel and with I think a Sergeant Montoya, Detective Montoya, right, and and I think there's a lot of really good stuff in all of those dynamics. And I enjoy her and AND's Commissioner Gordon and kind of all of them getting to be a little bit more center stage characters.
And like while like Batman's doing Batman things, and you still get to see Batman do cool things and be a detective and like do stuff, right, but like he you know, in some in some stories, I think he's kind of sucking up more of the oxygen than in others, and in this one, I feel like it reminds me I feel almost a little bit at points of Batman Returns right, which we covered with with Ashley and how you know, Batman's there doing Batman things, but it's like
there's a lot of other stuff going on. And after recently talking about Cobra Kai and how it felt like the show's writers were not very interested in their characters and they're kind of just about creating this kind of drama here, I really do feel like the writers are very interested in their characters, the same way Batman's very interested in his rogues gallery, and like, what are their motivations?
Why are they doing what they're doing? Right, It's not the antagonists are not antagonists for the purpose of having an antagonist. They are antagonists because they want something different, because there are people who want something different than what the protagonist wants. Basically, sure, and I think that just makes better stories.
Yeah, it really does. And a couple of times we
actually get the point of view of an antagonist. In one case I'm definitely talking about in a bit, But I want to focus especially on the Gordons, as you said, because one of the dynamics that we've seen a number of times, is the idea of kind of what is the role of the public defender, of the defense attorney, and the frustration that cops and prosecutors often have with that person, and is that person incredibly corrupt and are they part of the police, are they part of the problem,
or as I think is the much more accurate portrayal, should they be understood as part of the justice system, in that their job is specifically not to try and allow criminals to go free. It's to make sure that the justice system is as non corrupt as possible, that there aren't cutting corners, that they are doing everything the way that they should be doing. And we can talk a lot about whether that's a system that is like whether it's a band aid or a real monitor system
or all that kind of things. Like take, for example, in the TV show Arrow, you have this exact same dynamic in the Land's family where the father is a police captain. I think you've actually become a police commissioner.
He could kind of rise up through the ranks, and his daughter is a defense attorney and he gets mad at her for defending and they have like the very surface level of this conversation, but it never really goes deeper, and I feel like here it does go a lot deeper, especially as he said, by giving Barbara friendships with a psychiatrist who is also another person who you know. She is the person who decides if a person is like,
you know, a criminal or mentally you know. She's the person who decides, like whether or not a person is like mentally fit in order to like stand trial, or should be understood as sick and not evil. And that's a whole other system we can spend many episodes about, and of course her character goes in some interesting directions, but the conversations that they have helped to again ground it.
And I very much agree with you that making them both black in a system that we're often idiots people of color and especially black people who are the victims of prosecutatorial misconduct, police misconduct, and often are not able to afford the fanciest attorney defense attorneys, and they'll get the public defenders, who I want to be clear, are
doing the lord's work. I mean, public defenders are some of the most unappreciated people in this country, I think, but often they don't have the resources to do a very good job, and so often don't get a good defense. And so yeah, I really appreciated the way that that those conversations because I think for me, one of the fundamental questions I think at the heart of Batman I think has always been there, but that Christopher Nolan I
think really brought to the surface a bit. And there's a question that, like we're wrestling with a lot more today than we have been in the other times in the past, at least more publicly, can the system be saved?
You know?
And is the role of Batman that the justice system fundamentally works, but they're people who have slipped through their crawt and so Batman is there to deal with That is the idea that the system is corrupt and fixable, but you need a Batman to be dealing with the stuff that the police can't deal with right now, so that the system can fix itself, which is kind of the Christopher Nolan version of two of the movies, but not that his vision gets very confused, I think, or
is it the idea that the system is utterly fundamentally broken and unsavable, and so you need a Batman and a lot of other bad people and I don't think this show really tries to give an answer to that. It really because part of the idea is that I think Nolan is, as you said, no, Nolan's sire giving
me commissioner. Gordon definitely is one of the good cops in an a cab world, but you know, in a he's trying to do the best he can, but he wants to be a Yeah, he is of the idea that like, you can toss out the bad apples and save the whole bunch, and he wants to find those bad apples, but he's dealing with not only all of his pressure from on top, but also a lot of his subordinates just are utterly uninterested in what he's trying to do and wind up kind of going around him,
particularly Bullock and Bullock's partner Flass. Yes, Flass, thank you, and so yes. I just think it's it. I like things that raise harder questions for us without giving a specific answer, and that's what I kind of think this was done. Like I at least didn't think it was giving a specific answer of here's the way the criminal
justice system should be. It was saying like, this is a broken system, and Gordon and Batman are kind of on two opposite ends, both trying to fix the system and here's where they're successful and here's what they're not.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I feel like I feel like trying to give a clear answer one way or the other, certainly in a show like this, I think would be a mistake. You know, Like I mean, I guess you can have the viewpoint that the system is good and sometimes people are bad, and so you want to try and portray a picture of optimism. They're like, hey, look, we can make the system work, we just have to
kind of root out the bad apples. You can also have the opposite viewpoint that, like the system is maybe even inherently bad, not just like the system's corrupt, right, it's bad and needs to be dismantled. And that's another viewpoint. But I think if you're trying to tell a Batman story, I think, I mean, you could obviously the first one. The second one I think is tougher. The second one feels more like you're gonna have to tell a punisher story or something. I don't know, you know, if you
want to go there. But I feel like a lot of the best questions, a lot of the toughest questions are best left unanswered in fiction, and I think it's generally better to present characters with different viewpoints, have events that challenge those characters' viewpoints, as happens with Barbara, right and happens with Jim as well, Jim Gordon and I mean Nan Batman for that matter, and basically challenge your characters and just kind of show how someone might deal
with sort of thinking one thing, then seeing something that kind of contradicts that to some extent or challenges that, and then kind of how do they square that and how do they proceed? And not saying, oh, this is the way things are, this is the way things should be, but kind of just like telling a story where people are people, you know. And I think even just asking the question and just putting it out there is it.
I think it trusts the audience to an extent to say, like, look, here's some stuff to think about, and go ahead and think about that to the extent that you want. Right,
We're not going to like constantly belabor it. We're going to put it out there and then you know, here's an explosion and here's some cool, cool fight scene, and you know, yeah, and then a couple character moments, and so it's not like the whole show is this stuff, right, but this is a These themes are are present, they're thick within the show's broth.
I mean, in some ways what you described is kind of the kind of story for which this podcast exists, because I always thought that a lot of what we do here is when fiction raises questions, and if they offer we discuss those questions, and if it offers an answer, we might wrestle with an answer, or in this case,
we're much more open we can talk about that. And one thing I kept thinking about, especially with your comments, has now brought up for me is that I feel like the movie The Batman doesn't offer a solid answer, but offers more of a direction than an answer could go in that I don't think I saw here, and maybe you saw it and just missed it because and
I think you actually helped me see this. In the movie The Batman, there are more explicit than they are on this about part of what he wants is he wants to make criminals be afraid, and then in some of the last scenes of that movie, he winds up being the literal light that helps that other people can follow towards salvation, towards being saved from this drowning, you know. And I think it's the idea of like I don't want to offer fear to the bad people, I want
offer hope to the good people. Yeah, and which I think is a very interesting kind of like, hey, what if this is a shift And it's interesting to me that that this Batman doesn't go there, but I kind of wonder, like, like, to me, it seems like they're both part of the same kind of conversation, if that makes sense.
Absolutely, yeah, I think. Yeah. I mean that image of Batman holding this like flare in the darkness and leading all these people through the water like out of you know, this submerged stadium or event venue or whatever, is like that's that's to me, that's like the most enduring image
of that film, you know. And like maybe he's still inciting fear in people who want to do harm to the people who he's trying to inspire hope in, right and here, Yeah, there's definitely not that like symbol of hope kind of thing going on right so much, but there's I think it's you know, I mean, it's a
whole season it's like you said, it's close to five hours. Honestly, like the actual run time minus the credits is probably not that different from the Batman movie, right, But there's so many more characters here, Yeah, I mean the Batman takes its time with a smaller number of characters. Here, we really we have a big cast.
I do think as I think about it, there are some elements of hope in this story as well, particularly
a Batman offering hope to the characters. I think for Jim Gordon, because I think when Jim Gordon like, there's the sort of feeling of like for both JM and for Barbara and some others, they at first very much resist the idea of the Batman because to them they're dedicated to the system and someone working outside the system is by definition wrong and bad and just as much of a criminal, right, and towards the end, I think both of them like, I think, especially for Jim, the
Batman helps remind him that he's not alone. Yeah, there are others who want to fight the fight that he's fighting, that even if most of the systems corrupt, there are people who want something to be better, And I think we see scenes of the people of Gotham. Having some sense of Batman gives me some hope that someone's on my side at a time when it seems like all the people are out to get me, including the cops.
Yeah, I think you're right, Yeah, for sure. And I think you know the scene of you know, going into that burning building now and where where Gordon confronts Batman for the first time but then realizes like at that point, Batman just cares about like saving people from the fire, you know, like that's what he's there for. At this point. He tried to catch the fire bug, right, but like that didn't work out, and now he's just, you know,
he's just trying to to save some kids whatever. And I think that's where where Gordon like sees who Batman is right in terms of like what he's really trying to do, you know. And then you actually get kind of like the the flip of that where where Barbara actually runs into a burning building or a destroyed building to say, Batman, you know, right, and then.
Batman's kind of a gig to her about it.
But that's again, yeah, Batman's just kind of a Batman to her. You know. It's like that's that's what you know. He he doesn't want other people risking themselves for him, right, which I think maybe eventually he comes around on, but like not soon, not in most of the Batman's I see, well, because.
I think there's sometimes there's this idea of, like I think in the Christopher Nolan movie, Batman does not want other people trying to be like assistant Batman, in part because he doesn't need them and they actually get in his way. In this one, I think the implication is that he may well have saved himself. He's Batman, but he's unconscious in a burning building.
Yeah, it looks pretty blak.
Yeah, I think I think that there's a good possibility that Gordon doesn't save him. He dies in that moment, And so it's not even just the I don't want you to help me. He's unable to acknowledge that he needed her help. And I think that's very tied in to the Pennyworth Alfred thing, where this is also the start of him realizing he needs Alfred both as like his man in the chair, but also is like his only human connection is Bruce Wayne.
Right, the only person who knows all of who he.
Is really, Yes, exactly exactly. I want to quickly comment on the firefly and then use it as a way to start talking about some of the antagonists we get because Firebug, forgiving, he's not fire flies, as he reminds us.
He's only in one episode. We don't get much of him, but we got one moment that I thought was such a beautiful way of showing us his inner story and that he is someone who is not malicious in the slightest because he is portrayed as someone who just is You know, I don't know what technically the term pyromaniac means, because I know that there's a medical definition and I don't know if this is at all accurate to that, But I think we are supposed to believe that he
is someone who has an obsession and of love with fire and simply does not understand the negative consequences of it. Right, And we see him getting ready to light a building on fire and including lighting the number of children on fire, and we get a moment like literally through his goggles and what he sees is children playing in the street and having fun, and then children on fire having even more fun rather playing in the street, and like it would be very hard, I think to externally try to
convey the idea that he doesn't understand that he is doing harm. But just with those three seconds, I think you feel the same. But tell me, yeah, I was hit so hard with this idea of, oh, he is sick. He is not malicious in the slightest and like he's a danger and we have to prevent that. But this is not a person who wants to do harm. This is a person whose brain is different enough and off
kilter enough. I guess I could say that he fundamentally does not understand that what he's doing is not good.
Yeah, absolutely, you know. I mean, he clearly does not have a grasp on the reality of what fire does to human bodies. He has a different view, and he thinks that's a good thing. Not in a oh good, I'm going to kill people, but like, look on fire, isn't that great? You know, like like you light a log on fire and then it's bursting in flame and it's so pretty, and like why wouldn't they be happy this way? And so he's clearly not well in a very very specific and very harmful way. But like he's
he's not evil, he's not trying to cause harm. You know, it's like if somebody's swinging their arms around wildly because they're excited and maybe they have scissor hands or something, and they don't understand that their scissors are hitting people. Right, it's like the same thing kind of where it's just like it's a total disconnection from the consequences of his actions.
And I mean even thinking that there are these positive consequences that aren't what's what's real, and he just he's just a guy who needs help, right like he and
I don't. I also am not going to speak to the you know, the accuracy of that from the standpoint of psychiatry, But as far as as a character goes, I like seeing some characters who and this is very common in Batman villains, but this is even like this is that to like an extreme example, and and it was delivered so brilliantly in this simple visual right in
a way that you could have some expository dialogue. Oh, you know, when he sees children lighting on, like it would be awful if they tried to just deliver that with dialogue. But here just like boom, just in just
a few frames. Even it's like we see it and we see the world through his eyes, and we understand, like, this is someone who needs to not be out on the street with access to fire, right like they're you know, and that doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be like locked away in Arkham for his whole life, right, And that's where kind of our you know, concerns and thoughts about the justice system comes in, where it's like, well, what is an actual practical way to try to help
someone like this lead a fulfilling life with out lighting other humans on fire? Like? How do we do that? And I don't think there's a simple answer to that, but I think there are some very obvious bad answers, and I think most of what our world does, and most of what Gotham does, are those obvious bad answers. Here, he's deliberately let loose by Harvey Bullock and Flass in an attempt to draw out Batman, which you know works because Batman's like, oh, a building's on fire with kids
in it, I'm going to head over there. Right. This was part of their you know, hunting hunting Batman program, and then they murder, I mean Flass murders, right, is it Flass? Who does it? Right? It's not Bullock. I think it's yeah Bullock. Yeah, literally just murders firebug and he falls out a window and then is deemed a hero, you know, for for stopping the bad guy who he literally put out on the street with access to to
his equipment. And and yeah, I think I think the like Harvey and Flass, the Bullock in Flass, not to be confused with Harvey Tent. Their dynamic I think is interesting. I think them being like so corrupt and like really evil, right, like they don't they don't seem to have very complex motives, and I think that really adds a lot to it,
you know, showing these like very bad cops. I also think it's interesting that they have Flass as a as a black character here, and you know, it adds to the whole you know that this when we're talking about criminal justice and stuff, like in some places it really is like the whole thing is like a bunch of
white people and policing you know, black neighborhoods. And obviously that's bad and doesn't make any sense, but oftentimes there are you know, there's a number of black folks in the in the a you know, police system, in the department, And and that doesn't always make things better, right, It's not like that automate Like it's a better starting point, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the system is then going to be good and just and deliver the results that.
Like they're women who uphold patriarchy, either gay people, transaction, all those kind of things. Yeah, And there's a couple of things I want to touch on there. One is I think you're right, it's actually this is this is holding up mirror to another part of this whole justice system idea, which is I think it's very tied to
the vengeance we hear about people doing terrible things. Like if you hear about someone who lights children on fire, like most of us, I think even those of us who have a very kind of like more nuanced idea of what criminal justice should be, my first response is like, that's a horrible person. And what I didn't have to fight is like I want something horrible that I happen to that person because they're lighting kids, it's on fire.
You know.
And I think a lot of times it's hard for us to reconcile this idea that a person can do so many horrible things and then what do we do with that that desire for vengeance, whether it's personal or
kind of societal. And with the Firefly character, we get this interesting idea of like, yeah, this person doesn't want to do harm, And a lot of the push for reform in our modern day police state system is this idea of like, how can we separate out the need to put people in a situation where they are unable
to continue doing harm? How do we help to reform them if possible, so that they will no longer do harm and separate them out from the they are bad, therefore they should suffer, so that our desire for vengeance feels better in some ways. And you know, some will argue that the threat of punishment is a deterrent. I think we've seen pretty clearly statistically that's not the case. But you know, that's another point of view and not
to be argued here. But yeah, the point being, I think all of it, and then putting it up against people like Quinzel, who we see kind of already as Harley, and I want to give her her whole conversation in a few minutes, who I think is acting somewhat more. She may have some you know, motivations that are more
altruistic of doing good or trying to save people. But I think she also has a lot of run personal motivations, and especially towards the end, and that like compare a cop like Bullock in this who, as he said, is just like pure malevolence in many ways, with someone like the image of Montoya in the Dark Knight, who wants to be a good cop, wants to do well, but when put up against the desire, I think it's her mother is like going to be killed unless she helps
the joker. She does the corrupt thing, but for very different motivation. I think. I think you can look at her and Bullock and call him equally corrupt, and I think that in terms of the harm they do, that may actually be somewhat accurate, but the reasons for it, again are fundamentally different, you know, just like the fire bug and Penguin.
Yeah, yeah, so you pivoted a penguin there, which which I think is a good because you were talking about Quinzel for a minute. Yeah right, But yeah, I mean, if we want to talk about penguin, like Penguin.
Is the most like clearly malicious, like she just wants to get rich and have power.
Yeah, she's just a mob boss, you know, who's like not doing it for family. You know. It's like she's just like, yeah, I want money. I'm somehow a master criminal, even though I'm going to bump off one of my own kids, despite by just like a tip off from my enemy. That part didn't really work for me. I was like, wait, what, You're not going to try and fact check this? But I did appreciate, Like I didn't like the first episode that much. I think it's a mini driver as Penguin.
By the way, and just to be clear, yeah, for those onse who are hearing a she and I mean driver, they do a number of interesting flips in the show, and one of them is they make Penguin a woman. And we'll talk about that a second, be a good one.
Yeah, and you know, she's just a mob boss. She's just like I mean Penguin. Usually, it's pretty much kind of what Penguin is a lot of the time, right, She's basically a fairly normal penguin. She just happens to be a woman. And what I like about that in particular is that Batman has a real tendency to take almost every female villain and have them be sympathetic relatable, not like a real evil villain the way you know Joker or maybe Riddler or a handful of other male villains.
I mean, overall, batman villains tend to be more relatable than a lot of other villains, right, which we've been talking about, But like that's especially true with female villains,
especially true with attractive female villones. And you could say, well, you know, Penguin's kind of heavy and like, so maybe they're not totally breaking that mold, but I did just feel like this Penguin basically let us say, like, look, there are some really nasty, malevolent people in the world who are just greedy and just want stuff, and we have to figure out what to do about that. And then there's and some of them are women, some of
them are men. And then there's also you know, people who do villainous things that aren't motivated by greed or by mouths. I mean, greed analys are kind of two different things, right. There's like wanting someone else to suffer, and then there's just like wanting to have stuff for yourself, right, And those are the two things that we might call evil, right, I.
Would say count Woman is a very interesting counterplay because in this Catwoman has no altruistic motives. She's purely agreed, but she's not really malicious. She's like, rich people have stuff that sucks. I want stuff, yeah, take stuff from
rich people. And she's not actively trying. And yes, I do think that she is much more attractive and flirts with Batman in a way that Penguin, who is both heavier set althought have a comment on that, because I think there is a heavy set character who is portrayed as very attractive in this, but also she's older and like, you know, she has the nose of the Penguin idea. And yeah, I think they didn't try to give Catwoman any kind of altruistic motive. They didn't try to give
her a hero turn as often happens. But she's also not She's just a burglar people. She doesn't have some deal plan. She just wants stuff. Rich people have stuff, right exactly.
Yeah, So I feel like, I don't know, I almost think like if you took out like a you know, an alignment chart, like a D and D alignment chart, like you'd have characters who were really onlike basically every
point when you really think of it, you know. And and so I just really appreciate the you know, the diversity of villains in terms of you know, not just what they look like or whatever, but like motivation, right, there's yeah, and it I think it plays better when you have a villain like Firebug, when you also have a villain like Penguin, right, when you also have a burglar like Catwoman, and and just you know, and then even someone like Colou was a Carlo what was his name,
Basil Carlo. You know, he was clayface here, but yeah, you know, where he's got it's kind of more vanity and some vengeance and stuff like that going on, you know. And and there's just there's all these different motivations, and I feel like the writers were very interested in the motivations of the characters, and you know, and so Batman was able to be interested in the in the motivations
of the characters. Right if if you don't have complex motive, then you can't really have a detective who's that interested in motive because it's always simple essentially.
Well, also, I think it's a part of what would allows the Batman character to shift away from vengeance is because vengeance is driven on this idea of these are
bad people, they deserve to suffer. And I've always thought that some of those interesting stories are where and I actually think the TV show Gotham did one of the best jobs of this is that when you know when a person does something bad to you, and this can be on like broad political scales or just like you know, the person in eighth grade who you know, stowing your pencil or whatever, like, it's easy in your head to
build them up to be a monster. And that's very much what young Bruce Wayne does with Joe Chill and then gets this very disappointed feeling when it's just like this is just a guy who like is killing people, Like he's not good, like you know, upstanding, one full guy, but also someone who's just as much a victim of like the poverty system and all this, and is driven to desk primes of desperation much more than like you know, malicious like I want to rule the world crimes.
Yeah, and like killing them is not going to change anything. Yeah, exactely not going to bring my parents back at least right for sure. For sure, Let's talk about harlequin quinze uh Heart Harley and Quinzel.
Yeah, let's talk about Harley and Quinzel. And I want to start just by saying, because I kind of mentioned her before, they change her character in a number of ways, one of which is until the very end of the show it's not clear whether she is like already connected to Joker or not, and we'll get to that in a bit. But also they make her I think Asian is supposed to be her her background, and they make I mentioned that I do think there's a character who
is heavier set but also quite attractive. She's definitely not portrayed as like model Finn. She's presented as heavier, but when she puts on like the Harlequin outfit in her case, it's form fitting and like she looks damn good in it. Like I think a thick would rather be a very appropriate description. And I liked that a lot in terms of her character, and I thought reflected On the one hand, I want to say it reflects a like, you know, we don't have to portray all attractive people as the same.
I don't want to give the show too much credit because I think it reflects like changing beauty standards in our world that like you know more hourglass figures are portrayed as a lot more attractive, particularly for women of color, and like all the nonsense that gets into but I just liked it as one more difference of her character, of like, because particularly when she is a psychiatrist, she's
not presented as the sex pot. You know, she's not pencil skirts and impossibly high heels and all this kind of stuff. And and yeah, and she's presented as like at first, I think you're very much supposed to think this is the person before she's met Joker in any way, who is just a psychiatrist who has sympathy for her patients.
What we learned is that she's kidnapping and brainwashing her patients, and she might have some like, well, this is actually the best way to cure them, but showing them also means that they're all brainwashing and doing like She's kind of a sadistic dominatrix type in some ways, which I think is going to cause a lot of young people to ask a lot of questions that they'll be dealing with the rest of their lives. And that's fine, but
catwomen have been doing that for generations. But also just I think like there's been this growing trend and I think Margaret Robbie has a lot to do with it, but other people as well, of like, can we not just make Harley an appendage to Joker but give her a lot more independence? And normally that's in kind of Margot Robbie veiled way Joker makes her and then she breaks free. This really portrayed a Harley completely free of Joker, who's just kind of awful and badass in her own way.
What do you think of her portrayal in this?
Yeah, I thought it was super interesting. I enjoyed it a lot. First of all, we meet her at as Bruce Wayne's psychiatrists, right court appointed psychiatrist because he he does something angry and then he you know, he's mandated to.
Go to Remember he does not willingly do this.
It's a like, yes, this is this is not Bruce Wayne being like maybe I'll get some therapy.
Does seem like Harley is the only psychiatrist in Gotham because she apparently has a wide wide range what climate client she deals with, but that's we can put that aside for now.
Yes, And she's also like an expert wetness in court cases and yes, although it was Leslie Tompkins, right, Leslie Thompson was there. I think Tompkins. It was Tompkins. Yeah, yeah, but like, yeah, there's not there's not a lot of other a lot of other strikes there. But so we we definitely see her in a very you know, in her own professional environment, and then we see her being very you know, proactive in a you know, in terms of dating and and like just being her, right yeah.
And then then we see that not like she's become Harley Quinn, but like she's been Harley Quinn for some time because she's got this collection of former billionaires who she got, most of whom to donate moneys to charity and whatever, but also to like dress up as babies and whatnot and like do stuff for her. And it's it's definitely it's one of these like, Okay, I see what you're doing. But also I have some notes, you know, like maybe you can brainwash them without having them dress
up like babies. I mean, if that's what they're into, cool, no problem whatever. To each their own.
But I don't think this is the best illustration of active consent in kink.
World, right, yeah, fair enough, fair enough, Yeah, that aspect might be the first clue, right, right, right, Yeah, there's a lot of kidnapping going on, and so it does seem like she has a blend of altruism and I don't know if it's vengeance or sadism or exactly what, but like she's got some she's got a mix of stuff going on, which I like, you know, I feel like it doesn't have to be one or the other, right.
I think especially it's particularly directed in a way that I think is a really important social commentary because as a psychiatrist, it seems like her specific like direction of anger is towards rich men, but especially rich men who are unable or unwilling to open up about their feelings. And it's often and I think she's very critical of Bruce Wayne in that, like at the end of their quartered sessions, Bruce was like, oh, I got a lot
out of this, and She's like, no, you didn't. You can't open up at all, right, And you kind of get the sense that she kind of wants to kidnap Bruce and that on her collection, right, and we see like at least a couple of other cases. We see one our specific case where she does add someone to her collection, and it's exactly that it's someone who is another man who won't open up about his feelings.
Yeah, and.
Again I think adding to the richness of it, you talk about her dating life. We only see her go on one date, so I think that it is very open what kind of queerness she is, but she very
clearly is queer. It's a date with Montoya and is presented and really kind of awesome, like our cute see way or a lot of She's like, she's super nervous and she's asking Barbara to like help in it kind of like middle school pass a noteway because everyone does, but especially if you spend any time in Staffac circles, like they'll often talk about women having no idea how with other women, and that was really well represented here.
Yeah.
So yeah, I just think it And what I say all that is because I think the idea of the man hating lesbian who loves other women and like torturing men is a cliche that I think there's some you can have some fun with it, but also can become pretty queer phobic. That's not what he's shown here, you know, Like, I think it could go in that direction. For sure,
but they don't start dabbling that part of it. She has romantic interest in a woman, she's torturing these men for her own benefit, but it doesn't take on that element, which I really appreciate it.
Yeah, for sure. I mean I really appreciated that her relationship with Montoya was just presented very matter of factly, you know, like in the way that I feel it should be, you know, and that if we get another ten or twenty years of stories doing that in a like non sensational way, maybe we'll live in a world where like commenting on that fact doesn't feel necessary anymore.
And I think that's important. And this is maybe are almost an hour. Is a ten episode show, and often we can do a whole hour on an episode, So we're probably gonna have to do a part two of this some other time. But I'll just say one of the things I think the show does is is set in a time that's probably somewhere in the thirties to fifties in terms of technology. There's no computers, there's no cell phones, there's dial up phones, all this kind of stuff.
But also a lot of times when people are making sort of period pieces like this, particularly when it's white folks making them. It's sort of about, oh, hey, we get to be have people use the N word all the time, and we get to have people be horribly racist and sexist because those were the times. And I
think there's been a growing direction. I think there's been a movement opposite that, which I feel like this is very much a part of of Yes, it's the nineteen thirties, but two women can kiss at a restaurant and have no problems, and a black man can be commissioner of police, and like even today, as you said, there's going to be some racism around that, and the show doesn't shy
from that. But in the nineteen thirties, that would be almost impossible for a large city like this to have, you know, a black man in that kind of a position, let alone also you know, some of the other positions they have. And I think I think we can do a whole I'm gonna say both of the hot art I keep basically your debt and Harvey dat time Travelers got in the Galaxy and all that hit Tiger's got in the Galaxy.
Thank you.
We're gonna save the Harvey Debt storyline and the idea of what time period should Batman be saved in for part two the Records some other time. But I do think I like that idea of it being kind of timeless. It is the technology of this time, but much more of the social mores of today or even like the future that we want.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think it's a reminder that like Gotham is Gotham. Gotham's not New York, Gotham's not DC, Gotham's not Detroit. It's Gotham, And this isn't This isn't the same world that even other Batman stories take place in, right, It's certainly not the world we live in right now.
And so there's no reason that you can't have the technology that existed in the nineteen thirties or forties or fifties or even twenties right in our world world, in a world that just doesn't have these same issues, these same things going on that we have here, and even if it does, they don't necessarily have to be centered, right.
It's like, and I think there's something to be said for literal historical stories that show a certain level of historical accuracy, but there's no reason that you can't tell stories in what looks like the same time period, but with some important differences that are like, well, they still have corruption, They've still got a lot of bad stuff, but they don't have the same racism, sexism, and homophobia to the same extent at least that we have now
and certainly had, you know, in the thirties and forties.
But in a lot of ways, I think you can I would positively compare this to Game of Thrones where because I think West ROAs and Gotham exist in very similar ways. And if your first response is to go, wait, but west Ross is fantasy, like the supernatural is literally introduced in terms of like an actual ghost in this set in this show.
Yes, yeah, this is fantasy. Yeah, and I think which I lost by the way the way that all played out.
But yeah, in both cases, I think this is a model like it is model in a particular time period, like Gothing is very much like similar to on nineteen thirties, nineteen twenties whatever, New York or Chicago, in the same way that West Roast is kind of a Middle Ages, you know, England or Europe or something like that, but where you know, this this show, as we said, is kind of saying, okay, and there are a lot of terrible things at that time period, we don't have to
show them, I think the writer but even more the writer of the books, but even more the makers of the TV show were like, oh, wait a minute, there was a lot of sexual violence and bad treatment of women in that world. What if we do that all the time? It's got in ways where like actually a lot of like tits are going to be shown while like being over this sexual violence. It's bad bad? Isn't it fun to watch?
Like?
And it got Yeah, I think it got a critique very legitimately, so HBO that would go on to like every mob show, some mobster has to own a strip club, and we have to have many scenes happen in that strip club.
I mean speaking like the Wires like arguably the greatest show ever, but it definitely there are times when it's like, Okay, how are we going to get some more tits on this screen?
Like right?
It really you could hear the writers like like that's like almost like one of the biggest complaints, Like and it's not a lot of complaints, but it's just like this is clearly what this scene is for.
I mean literally in season one they own a strip club and have many of their meetings at the strip club, and the camera always is like, oh, but who's on stage right now? Don't you want to know? Essential?
You know?
And like it's sopranos they own a strip club. I think it's become a fairly common common thing, but yeah, you know, yeah, So I just really like that about this, the the kind of like it's it's the aesthetics of a specific time and period. I think this is what
we'll talk about more in next episode. But it raises really interesting questions, like to what extent is Batman tied to a specific like both time in terms of like our understanding of wealth and understanding of the police, but also just an aesthetic that doesn't really connect to the world of cell phones and TikTok and and cyber and everything.
Yeah. Absolutely, we're gonna talk more about that later, right, I don't go on to like twenty paragraph rant Cole.
Yeah, so, what are a couple of little things you wanted to bring up?
Uh? Okay, a very little thing and this fits the kind of thirties forties theme. Also, there's the Clay Faces,
a character. His name is Basil Carlow Right, and there's a scene where he and Batman are dueling with swords and they're going up a staircase and you see their shadows behind them, like dueling, right, and this is like a shot exactly from I think it was called The Adventures of Robin Hood anyway, the Robinhood movie with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone and Basil ye that yes, So Basil Rathbone was this brilliant actor who was very beloved but also didn't really get to play the leading man
that much. He played Sherlock Holmes. But like you know, which also then I feel like ties in with Batman as well, you know.
But it way, I want to make a small note on that because if you watch earlier versions of Batman or read version of Batman, and I'm like, why is but but the original writers never mentioned Charlock Holmes. Why is it all of a sudden they do. It's because the copyright ran now like not and the original like Kine and I forget their games. But the original writers of Batman have said that they were like in part influenced. Why they just couldn't mention it?
Because yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I actually knew someone who and did something with the estate of Arthur Conan Doyle and whatever anyway, literally age so but like, yeah, so there's this like this really kind of nice little easter egg, like if you're into like thirties movies or forties movies or something, you know. Yeah, and so so I just really enjoyed that. And I'm sure there were other things like that, probably that maybe I didn't pick
up on. I we'll talk more about Harvey Dent next time, right, But I liked this Harvey Dent story. There's certain things about it that I thought were really cool. And I feel like, when you see the Dark Night and then you see this Harvey Dent story, there's a nice kind of you know, two sides of the coin, which for two pays for Harvey Dent, I think plays really well. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the gentleman ghost thing where it's like Batman's like, well, obviously is not a ghost,
and then the ghost shows up. He's like, oh, obviously this is a ghost. I need to change my worldview, you know, which. I just that's something that that like gets back to, like this will be my closing thing where like that gets back to what I love about Batman. That Batman has a very clear view of the world,
has certain assumptions about what's going on. But when something comes and challenges those assumptions, the first thought is like, Okay, how can this be true given my assumptions, And then when the conclusion is like it can't be, then it's like, okay, then I need to adjust, right, I need to change my worldview.
I may the impossible, whatever resist, no matter how improbable, be true exactly, exactly, And yet too, I love that so much because when I made a TikTok about this in terms of politics, but I to me, that's one of the highest ideas of intelligence. Is well, it sounds us in terms of like high, but like I think that is to me it is a sign of an the kind of mind that is needed to exist in this world. And I think so many problems like don't have that. You know, for example, the mindset of a
lot of the police. If you're a criminal, you are a bad person. I will Gordon sees evidence about Batman that makes him change his worldview. Bullets sees that evidence but refuses to accept it. And exactly, I think in our own world. That is something that is one of the causes of so many problems is people who have a worldview and are unwilling to listen to evidence that would actually cause them to be like, oh, maybe what I was taught in like fifth grade biology forty years
ago about gender doesn't actually still apply. You know, maybe what I my understanding of how economics works isn't actually how it worked, you know, like we just don't have that from some of people in this world.
Yeah. Yeah, And I think you asked about cognitive dissonance in the poker podcast we did, or the episode about poker, and I think that's more what cognitive dissonance really is.
It's that having a worldview and then getting information that contradicts that, and having that information like in your sphere, but not accepting it, and having this this dissonance between what you believe or want to believe, and then stuff that is is in your in your zone and like you can't there's there's dissonance there, right, that's not there's not harmony.
Yep. Yeah, what else was it in your bowl list?
Actually that was maybe most of it. Yeah, I mean, there's like getting deeper into the Harvey Dent story, but like mostly that was about kind of I think I like this one better than The Dark Knight because the whole thing with like him and Barbara, I think is
much more interesting than like Rachel getting fridged. Like, The Dark Knight's an absolutely brilliant movie, but like, you know, there's some spots, right, I mean we've covered it some times, and like there's some things where it's like, well, that doesn't make it a bad movie, but it's like, what if you told a story where the dude's motivation wasn't that a woman got killed? You know, Yeah, what if you told a different story than that?
And yeah, we'll talk about that because I don't think that's his whole motivation, but I think that is the thing that causes his world for you to crack.
Oh yeah, yeah, that's fair, that's but yeah, I don't think you sell it so simply. I just mean, like you had one female character, you know what I mean of the concept.
He totally agreed. I think The Dark Knight is an incredible movie that's also somewhat of its time and has some problems in that regard. And yeah, we'll talk a lot more about Dent because I realized I think I want to watch it again because and maybe this is just how powerful the Dent story is. I felt kind of burnt out, Like the last whole three episodes are about Harvey Dent and him becoming I don't know if he comes to face and that's kind of what we'll discussed,
but something like that. So the Ins have his face burnt off and he goes on, you know, this criminal spree, and I was just like, Ah, there's so many other characters. Do we have to do that character yet again because we've done it in the Dark Knight? And I was kind of like, wait, is the Dark Knight big in my subconscious that this movie is from like twenty years ago? Seems like it was just done yesterday. But anyway, we'll
justcuss that later. There's one other question that I want to ask that we're going to dive into in our member section, which is, what does the very last revelation about what I think is Joker? How does that affect how we see Harley Quinn? And if you want to listen to that, all I have to do is become a member. It's five dollars a month, fifty five dollars
a year, you get the bonus content. The end of bonus all of our episodes, you get free episodes that are you get exclusive episodes that are just for members. We've been doing in the Star Wars starting the fall, We're gonna given the superhero ethics, all this kind of great stuff, and of course you get to help support the podcast all the informations on our show notes. One thing I'm also going to say is that this podcast
is going to go into somewhat of a higatus. We have one more episode coming out that I'm recording with Riky about Genesis Neon Evangelic in the anime, and just some ideas of anime and crime fighting and all this kind of stuff in general. Our fighters are justice in general. And then we're gonna take most of September off of the hiatus. I need the time because I'm doing a lot of personal travel, but also because i want to take some time and actually like back up and rethink
how we're doing things. I'm not getting your feedback as fast as I want to. We're not doing enough to promote the podcast, so we're kind of been September really focusing on those things, and then hit the ground running there will also be episodes and were going back and fighting some of the best of our older episodes and reputting them up in the feed and things like that, as well as key access to some other podcasts and things like that that I think we're early with checking out,
so please stick around. We're gonna have that's be in September, but then new episode is coming in the fall for sure, So please become a member who want to listen to more that conversation, but if not, thank you all so much. I'm to have Paul and myself we have spoken