Episode 19 - Caught in the Middle with Aya Ferguson

Music.

Welcome to Supercharged, the change and comms podcast. In this series, we've been exploring change management and comms across the globe. And in this episode, we're talking to Ira Ferguson. Ira spent the majority of her career working and leading change in higher education and is now the founder of Caught in the Middle, a consultancy service that sees middle managers as their VIPs of higher education. We'll get to hear a bit more about this later in the episode.

But as always, before then, over to Barcelona to say hi to Pete. Hello. Afraid we've run out of water here, so if anyone's got any they can send our way, that would be good. We're now in extreme drought measures. Anyway, that's not the topic of the podcast, so let's swiftly move on to Aya. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Yeah, thanks very much for having me. I'm in Copenhagen and we've got plenty of water, so I could definitely send

some your way. I'm Aya Ferguson. I work in higher education, and I have done for a decade or so across lots and lots of different institutions.

Institutions but in my career I guess I've sort of focused very much on change management the people side of change really so I started out in management consultancy worked for lots of government departments and it was always on sort of transformation programs and and really on the stakeholder engagement and and change side of it that's that's what gets me out of bed in the morning really what's kept you motivated through your career change I think can be a bit of a you know

there's not always good days let's say so you know what's kept driving you and what's kept you're interested in it i think it is that it's about people so you're absolutely right i mean i worked on a consulting firm during the sort of 2010s on lots of different government departments and then one move my entire cv was cancelled because coalition government came in and cancelled all the programs that i'd worked on so you know the kind

of transformation it can be quite demoralizing when some of the changes that you're working on that you really believe in because you're you're passionate about and you're working on the change side and part of that is the vision and the communications and getting people on board when those programs and then don't happen it can be really really demoralizing so for me i think it is about keeping people at the forefront so my role i don't think is to go in and realize

lots of benefits for organizations that's.

A win-win if we do that too but actually the reason I get out of bed is to make it easier for the people who are impacted by change and if that means that I don't know a program is capsule then it's part of supporting them to deal with that if program a transformation program does go ahead and they are impacted by whatever change then it's supporting them to adapt to it so for me it doesn't really matter what the change is what matters is the people who are impacted by it and are they having a

rubbish time or are they having an okay time we spend so much time at work of our lives that actually having an okay time at work I think is something we all deserve I you know you listen to people who or I do I really like going to work I really enjoy my job but I hear quite a few friends or colleagues who are kind of you know that that Sunday night feeling or Monday morning feeling I never have that and I just think it's really unfair that people have it I

don't think we should have that we spend so much time at work it should be something that we don't have to be jumping for joy every single day but you should vaguely enjoy joy being at work given how much time we spend there so I think we have a responsibility to our fellow people at work to make it an okay place to be.

You've reminded me of a conversation with my parents and because my parents would always complain about their work and I don't think they listen to this podcast so I can probably speak differently and I just remember as I think I was like 14 or something else shouldn't people just enjoy their jobs and they laughed at how naive I was but I think they should you know as much as that can be our job to help people do that. Well, it's really sad when they don't, right?

Exactly, yeah. It doesn't mean that we all have to be massive career, you know, really, really ambitious and career animals, but we should at least have an okay time at work.

Can you tell us a bit about Caught in the Middle then? Because I believe it is aiming to address some of that. It is, yeah. So Caught in the Middle is my new baby. It's a pilot this year. We've just had the first cohort. So it's essentially a membership for middle managers in higher education. So I spent the last decade or so in higher education and working with hundreds of different managers. And it's based on the challenges that I've sort of observed that they face all

of the time. And they are, for me, a VIP group because actually your manager... Has a greater impact on your sort of mental health and well-being than your doctor. So they're really, really important. The only other person who impacts us as much as our manager is our partner. So they have a really, really key role to play in employee satisfaction, employee engagement.

And I don't think that they're well-equipped in most industries, but certainly in higher education, I think they are sold a bit of a dud deal. They're sort of promoted into a role and And they're not given the support that they need in order to be a really good manager. My aim is to really support them. And that's where they're kind of, it's a membership model. So there's a core development path with some sort of video training on key elements

that I have observed that they seem to struggle with. Some of that is sort of managing yourself. So your inbox zero, you know, prioritizing all of that stuff that reduces firefighting. It's about managing your team. So how do we manage hybrid teams in this new world post-pandemic? And then it's about managing upwards. So your boss and your peers, how do we do that well?

It's leading through change. It's a bit on process improvement because actually universities have a lot of really cumbersome processes. There's something that will give them a few tools to reduce pain points in their sort of local processes. But really, I think the real value in it isn't that core content because you could probably Google some of that. It's about harnessing it, making it relevant for people in higher education.

And then it's about connecting them so that they feel supported. it. So a lot of what I've witnessed in managers across lots of different institutions is that they feel isolated. They feel like they're the only people who are going through whatever they're going through. The only people are facing those challenges and maybe not able to deal with them. They don't think anybody else has the same. And I really want to.

Just open those horizons up so they can see that everybody else at HE and probably other industries too are facing exactly the same things and you could reach out and actually support each other with it.

So it's really about, you know, the membership has that core content, it has a LinkedIn group for people to connect with each other, it has monthly Q&As, it has new content every month, but it's really about creating a community so that they feel connected and not isolated and they have a network of peers they can tap into for particular challenges.

So I'm excited about it. So one of the challenges I can recall, particularly within higher education, but not exclusive to, is that a lot of individuals who are promoted to management maybe never wanted to be managers. They never set off on their career path to do that. They're experts in their field, but the only way to seal progression or an increase in salary is to have to take on management responsibilities and it may not be natural to them.

So the gap that you've spotted and that you've responded to has to help that cohort of people.

They start off their careers, they're thinking that they're going to be a researcher or a specialist in some form of academia but by by no reason other than progression is traditionally seen to be promotion and promotion is seen to be line management and that's the only way that they can either increase their their earnings is to have to do something they may not be either wanting to do or naturally gifted at doing so the challenges there that that poses almost explains a whole load of things

you just just discussed and mentioned in terms of workplace issues because they're not equipped to do it. They went to work on the Friday, applied for a job.

Become a manager the mondays come around they've been appointed but they've had nothing in the saturday and the sunday to equip them to be you know like you describe as influential in your life as your partner it's a it's a real gap it's madness right that we don't do that that there isn't that support right i mean we all know how influential a manager can be on our own well-being you know we've i'm sure we've all had situations where you've there's been a bit of tension or something and you've

you've brewed over it you you we've all experienced it so the people that that are, you know, the powers that be know this stuff because they've been there. So why aren't we doing more about it? Why aren't we supporting people? And there's lots of research, there's lots of evidence out there that shows, I think it was ProSci in terms of change management and managers to be good at leading their teams through change. I think they said something like two out of three or 63% of managers do not

feel prepared to lead change and to lead their teams through change. That's crazy. How are we doing that? You know, there's a massive gap. We see it as well, don't we?

Yeah, absolutely. absolutely when i'm doing like change things it's the managers you speak to you're like yep brief my team on this yep talk them through it done a survey know what they're doing they all know what's going on and then you speak to another manager who's like oh my god you're so busy i have no idea i don't have time to talk to the team they're just gonna have to deal with it and you think oh okay can can we meet in the middle somewhere and i don't think it's malicious

caught in the middle it's exactly right but it's not willful right it's just that nobody has given them those skills or taking the time and also nobody has taken away a bit of their day job the operational stuff to allow them the time to develop and grow as a manager so you know if you as you said chris if you're if you're in a manager role because you didn't really want to be there it's just that that's the next step because that's the career trajectory are you really gonna go out

of your way to take the time to become a shit hot one you know are you gonna take the time to do that course or to do that coaching or qualification or whatever it is if nobody is is sort of making you do it it's it's a tough place to be it is because you naturally gravitate to the things that you like doing and the things that you're good at doing so if you are still working in the same kind of environment but you're now a manager my experience has been people who are probably less effective.

As managers who haven't been given the skills all the time often see the conversations that you know this is great pete because you've got two former managers on the call can you bring that up but you know we know we know how to address or when to address something but for someone who doesn't they might see that as conflict so they naturally avoid having even some of the easier conversations because it feels like conflict even though it's probably not so they will naturally

spend more time doing their day job or the bit that they prefer doing that they've left behind and then the the problems are manifest in terms of staff not being ready for change, staff not just generally being communicated with, that member of staff. Their own career trajectory is now hampered.

Because you know their immediate role model is ineffective not necessarily through their own choice but just through lack of skills and i reflect back on learning and development schemes where they do leadership programs but those people are typically cherry picked off you know they're the ones that have been picked off and said right you're going to come on this scheme we think you're ideal for this and off you go we're going to put you amongst a cohort of 30 people

and you're our next leader and the rest of people looking around going you know hold on a minute though but i still need that stuff but you're kind of washing your hands for me a little bit i don't know oh look look, I've got a manager's job. Yeah, I mean, I'm in the gang. And like, you never got that course. Well, actually, the people who put themselves forward for that stuff are the ones who probably get there on their own, right? They can go and do some other development.

Because they are interested in learning, they know that there's a gap that they want to fill. But typically, we're not. Certainly in HE, I don't think we have a culture in most organizations or most institutions where you hold up your hand and say, okay, this is a skills gap for me. I don't know how to manage. Please help me. That's a pretty brave thing to say. And most people wouldn't. Yeah, it is because in some ways that can be perceived as restricting, can't it?

You know, someone might not want to tell you that because you might not think of me as ready for the next job. Or they might say, you know, is it acceptable to say I don't want to be a manager? It's not my skill set. It's not what I love doing. That will be frowned upon, right? My husband's a schoolteacher, secretary of schoolteacher, and he got promoted to head of department for a few years. He hated it, realised he really did not want to be it and demoted himself.

But that was, you know, that's odd, isn't it? Why wouldn't you want a promotion? Why wouldn't you want what is perceived as a better position or promotion? It took a while for him to explain that. Culturally, that is a shift, isn't it? In people's mindsets that actually progression isn't just based on seniority.

Your expertise and how you grow your expertise should lead to a professional development that doesn't necessarily mean you'd be a line manager because not everybody's going to be good at doing it.

And that's okay. hate it might be that it might just be that you don't enjoy it like you said or it could be that it's just not really you know your your personality trait to be able to do those things we don't really hate for those people so you i guess that's where you're caught in the middle kind of also has a second meaning because you're trying to capture those people who want to be but don't have the skills and it's a it's a tough place to be

because you you've just you know stopped being a a team member or a peer and you you're not quite a senior leader yet and you are caught in that middle so So part of your role is still to really represent your team and you might feel that they are best served by you being just one of them. So you're caught by what your team members want. You're caught between that and then what senior leadership are expecting you to be strategic and, you know, have a much wider horizon and outlook.

And it's a really tough place to be there in the middle because one day you're dealing with your team and some really practical operational stuff. And the next you're expected to figure out how you turn the institution's vision into reality and i mean you know that's that's hard i remember the first time i was a manager someone told me i think my manager said to me that you can't be friends with anyone in your team anymore.

Oh no that's uh well i think that's why it can be so isolating right yeah yeah because people never really tell you what what they want yeah and if you've left having a team that you're with and then suddenly you're you're you know you're their manager and you are not allowed to be friends with them anymore, which I think is a bit rubbish, actually. But there is a little bit of a distance. It's not true. You're sat there and you don't, who do you turn to for support?

That's why the sort of peer support network that I'm or the community is so important that you can still get that so you're not feeling so isolated yeah it's a massive part of it because Pete's right you know I can recall times earlier in my career where I've moved into a new management role when I'm working with people who are my friends I'm still their friends it's just I can't talk to them about stuff and I can't express things how I would have done before and so there is a shift

in that space so having that network actually is really important it's a safe space to go to it's an opportunity to be able to express without you still need to talk Talk about the stuff, right? Yeah, absolutely.

And I like what you're doing there as well, because at the beginning you described, you know, the types of content and stuff that you deliver, but it's the context of that that you never get from a LinkedIn learning course or, you know, from any kind of generic course system provider out there. You get told how to do a job, but you don't get the context of how that applies in HE. And, you know, these job adverts that pop out and say, you must have HE experience.

Really? And I work there and, yeah, okay, okay, I can kind of see that the setup is a little bit different and the processes are a little bit different and you're not really dealing with one customer. You've probably got six or seven because you've got your different colleges or schools or faculties, whichever the brand of the time is, and your professional services, but even those vary through to your student community.

They're all different. The challenges may be the same, but the context behind how to deal with them is massively different. And that's where when you see job advisors say you must have HE experience that's why they exist it's because it's difficult it's a moving landscape with a lot of different people in it and that's I think again the context of what Court in the Middle offers is something that.

Was eye-opening to me when I'm you and because we want to feel understood right when you go in as a as a contractor you often go in and they say oh yeah we're different and most of the time you think well they're not so different because organizations are organizations people are people but when I did when I started sort of thinking behind court in the middle I talked to friends who worked in government who worked in the NHS and they're all saying oh we could do with that that'd be

really good you know NHS managers definitely need something like this as well and And I could have gone wider, but I think in order for it really to be impactful, it's that network of your peers who work in the same industry, who understand, who speak the same language so that you really feel understood. Yes, absolutely. Other industries face the same challenges for middle managers. I think it's a problem everywhere.

But I think with my sort of knowledge and experience of HE, I can really make it something that resonates with real life examples of HE.

Because as you say linkedin learning typically it's american and it might be from an industry that doesn't really resonate in order for for people to listen these these people are busy right middle managers are really firefighting all the time in order for them to sit up and listen it has to resonate with them so it has to be specific to their situation that's why i think actually keeping it quite narrow to just he is really really important what do you think about things like the ilm or those

similar kind of like graded management schemes that people can do i'm I'm all in favor of development. I guess my challenge or the issue that I see with it is quite often we go on a generic training or access generic training, and then we go back to the day job and we don't

really implement? It doesn't really make a difference. And, you know, you might get a big consultancy and a big learning and development consultancy and do a leadership program, as you mentioned, Chris, earlier, we put a whole lot of people through it, and how much do they actually implement?

Now, I'm not suggesting that I got that completely sussed. But part of what I'm hoping to do with Court in the Middle is to have monthly Q&As, have live coaching sessions, and actually also have an implementation week.

So I'm currently trying to figure out which week of the year is the the least busy in the HE calendar. But once we have that, it'll be about, okay, so you learned all this stuff now. Have you actually done it? Have you got your inbox to zero? Have you actually gone and started asking open questions and being a coaching manager? Have you actually scheduled in one-to-ones and done a PDR with your manager? And have you followed this structure to make sure that you communicate well with them?

Have you actually looked at some of your processes and identified to find some ways to have you know to really sort of make it real and make it something that they use because I think quite often we go on these training courses and we just don't implement it that mentorship and and the follow-up is important right it's having someone that you feel accountable to that you know is going to check up on you yeah and that's that community right some accountability partners

if you like or you know people that help you to to progress with it and actually again so you're not isolated because you go and learn something and then you sit on your your own and oh we can't quite remember what it was and maybe i don't do anything with it but if you have a community of people who are facing the similar things and are trying to implement the same stuff then actually you have some accountability partners who can help you with that so wait watchers yeah it's really interesting

because you can always do a readiness for he.

Course i could just see how you can actually say like to i'm just looking at the amount of change managers i remember hiring trying to hire change managers at the university was just like the biggest bugbear of my life because we always needed them especially when we become super trusted and and able and demonstrable about what we were doing but then trying to find good change managers not not even ones of he experience was really difficult and i can clearly see

through linkedin posts it's been a similar vein across time apart from those who are either looking for you know their first step into he or those who have no experience in change management but think they know how to do it you know when you get through all that noise you know then when they they come in you do spend time upskilling them into that context setting and it's like i get it you're doing it for those middle managers to make sure they accept and prepared to

deliver change well and that they are effective in what their role is as a middle manager but actually i can see how you could expand that so easily into just a readiness that you're a project manager you're going to go work in he and by the way you know here's a here's a couple of hours i'm just going to kind of brace yourself people because this is not normal it's funny i think that i mean i love of HE and it's bonkers, right?

And I love finding, working for a new institution and finding out what their particular flavor of bonkers is. It's brilliant. I love it.

But it's really hard. As a change manager, I think this is one of the hardest industries to work in.

Like if you work in a private sector, there's much more of a culture of, okay, well, this change is happening.

And as we pay your paycheck, you'll just deal with it, right?

Maybe not quite said as confrontationally as that, but there isn't that in HE.

You have to be much more collaborative and engaging.

And academics, the concept of being an academic is to challenge status quo.

Right? So they're going to challenge when you come along and say, well, we have a new vision, or we have a new ERP program, or we have a new whatever it is.

They're going to challenge it because that is why we hired them in the first place. So we have to expect challenge and resistance and all of those wonderful things that we like getting our hands dirty with. But it's a hard industry to be in. It's a hard sector, I think. It's a big difference between not having shareholders, isn't it?

Between having a shareholder and not having a shareholder makes a big difference to the type of way in which the organization responds to but also just the culture of collaboration and co-creation much more than there is in some other cultures i mean i've just i have recently moved to copenhagen and i did i had a 10 months on a big it transformation program in their equivalent of bt so that's the sort of.

Telecoms industry and that was very much uh we tell them i mean they still did pro scion ad car you know to help people through but it was very much a tell them and they will just get on board there was very little acceptance that people might not i mean dames are more much more direct perhaps as well a bit like the dutch you know so the culture of of telling people how it is is much more direct here than it is in the uk perhaps

but it is it's quite a different you still want to bring people with you but they're much more sort of matter of fact and and telling about it rather than co-creation you've reminded me so something that came up when we were speaking to tracy scotter last year sometime was so her expertise is in the nhs and she was saying how she was doing i think it was the same transformational change stuff that she was working on and the same people reacted completely differently when

they were in nhs mindset to how they reacted when they were in the private hospital and so she was saying you you go from nhs hospital same people in the private hospital and then they would do everything that you told them to do because essentially they were in it for different reasons and i just thought yeah it's fascinating. It really is. It's interesting what you say about Denmark, though. I don't know. I always assume the Danes are so close to being English anyway.

Well, it's interesting because there is a very different model of democracy here. So what they call the Danish model, actually, I think they call it the Scandinavian model, is that we don't have a minimum wage, for example, because it is an agreement between the unions and the employers. That's how they go and they make an agreement on what the salary or the minimum pay is for in that particular industry. And that happens every year across all different industries.

So it's very much a coalition or a compromise. It's a bit like proportional representation in the government, but it is about, we compromise. We speak about this, we have very frank discussions and we talk about it and we compromise. That's how you get stuff done. And I think that filters through into organizational life as well. So people are very vocal and discuss their concerns And, you know, the feedback loop is constantly going.

And, you know, if that's how it is in the government and that they know they have to have a compromise. So if you consider, you know, we have, I think, 11 different parties in the parliament here and they all compromise. And we have, at the moment, we have a government across the middle. So both sort of slightly conservative and Labour in a coalition together. And they have to agree, right? And they really stand together. Yeah, though, through COVID, they really did as well.

They were very aligned in all of their kind of, okay, we have lockdown now, we have to do, all the parties were really quite aligned. If you contrast that with the Commons, House of Commons, where you have people sat on opposite sides and really quite confrontational. In the way that they speak to each other and just in the imagery of it, then it's no wonder that actually it might be like that in our organizations as well, that it can be quite confrontational.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it's quite interesting to see some of these sort of symbolism in society and what we might model ourselves on. The other thing that's noticeable since moving to Denmark is that, and I have always had it, is that we trust our government. Danes trust their government. There's something like, I don't know, 87% faith in the government and in the police and so on. And if you compare that to the UK at the moment, there isn't a lot of trust in the leadership.

And I think that might sort of translate to organizations as well. So organizations here tend to trust the people in charge or the people in organizations tend to, you know, trust the CEO or whoever it is.

Whereas certainly in HE in the UK, we see, you know, people have a mistrust of, you know, whether it's the vice chancellor or it's the deans or whoever it is you know there is a bit of a actually they're only cahoots together and and do they really know the best for for my team and and my role or my department and my students there is a I I find a little bit of a sort of mistrust which as change managers you then have to sort of navigate around right yeah I

think I was thinking this yesterday actually it's only it's often just a lack of communication if you actually get people in the the same room or on the same call then they're okay and you can kind of pull back the curtain a bit and reveal that there isn't hopefully a kind of grand plan to do whatever evil things they might be thinking yeah maybe in a sense that's kind of reflected in nationally as well if people just told the truth to each other it might make things a bit easier we're probably

going on to some very difficult to solve problems at that scale so you've worked in denmark and you've worked in uk and i wonder whether from middle managers that you see in denmark whether you see there are things that they could advise or offer or just are there differences in the way that you see people working and bits that you spot and think oh if only we did that in the uk.

Or the other way around i think manager that the structures hierarchy is a lot flatter in denmark so so you might be a manager or a team lead but really it's you are one of the you just happen to to have a little bit of extra responsibility, there isn't really a feeling that you are. Responsible for everybody in the team or that you are in some way elevated above them. So that, I think, is different to a reasonably hierarchical structure in certainly in HE in the UK.

So that role of manager, it might just be you've got a few extra bits of responsibility. It isn't a kind of, OK, well, you're the manager now. You've got to take care of all of this. They tend to give more people bits of responsibility. So you might have within a team a few people who are not the manager, but they are, you know, you're responsible for this bit for, I don't know, EDI or you are for GDPR or whatever.

Yeah. That's kind of similar. I am going at a very kind of low level of knowledge here, but that's kind of quite similar in some ways to some military roles though, isn't it? Now, military is very hierarchical clearly, but actually when you get down into the lower ranks, and I'm only going from some very light touch experience, but I'm pretty confident that you have an officer in charge of different things like EDI or first aid or something, but they are typically a corporal of some kind.

That they're not that part of the role isn't hierarchical it's kind of like you build out those.

Skills at the lower level that you know in perhaps in a world we would see being traditionally a typical manager has all of this and you're a doer and then you build those you bring those together and then you can start to see how hierarchy could appear i don't know whether i'm right or wrong but it does seem to as soon as you said that i thought i recognized that kind of everybody has extra responsibilities at a lower level to build and exchange and then grow as you go up as opposed

opposed to what we started off the conversation is Friday, I'm an employee and Monday I'm a manager. I mean, I haven't worked that much in Denmark, but I think the spans of control are smaller here. So you might have just a team leader with a couple of people that they lead rather than a manager that has a massive team. So they tend to sort of break it down more so that more people have that experience.

And it's not such a, I don't know, overwhelming thing, because if your span of control, you have, I don't know, you're managing 10 people. And you have to have one-to-ones with them all every week. And so there's a lot of people to manage, you know? So having a span of control that's just a little bit smaller makes it easier for them. And then everybody's getting involved, right?

I think it's funny, actually, when, you know, thinking, I don't manage anybody at the moment, thinking about when you do, it doesn't take much for one person in your team to throw your whole week out if they have a personal crisis of some kind.

Chris will know what I'm talking about. I think it's that kind of thing that's almost unseen seen when you when you do make someone a manager for the first time or that you're expecting them to step up and also be able to deal with personal stuff that maybe maybe they've never come across before i definitely back when i was was a team leader i didn't ever know anything about pregnancy or maternity and so on in my 20s i think if you don't really get equipped for any

of that stuff to have those kind of conversations yeah but even if you do i mean i'm i've managed a fair few people but during covid oh my god i mean the amount of time i spent just with people just one you know managing because everybody was reacting right everybody was having a really tough time some people lived alone some people didn't have a sport no you know there was a lot of time spent not on the work stuff but just on making.

Sure that people in the team were okay and had and and were coached and and supported yeah i when we set up the change management function the the university we recruited everybody in during covid so we had maybe one person who was our first recruit in and then you know in it comes we're all off and we did our recruitment through and i can remember clearly having to not only deal with these personal issues accruing everywhere on every day something different for

someone else but i've never met these people so i was having to build those relationships with them via a screen no different to how we are now except nowhere near as advanced as you were on zoom and teams all night and then have those conversations around you know their personal challenges around what covid was doing to them their family their experience their their even their work experience was rubbish wasn't it and yet we'd never met and the first

interaction we'd ever had was an interview the second interaction we ever had was welcome to the team and so anybody who would have been a new manager in that period of time for the first time I can only imagine how difficult that must have been it must have felt and everybody was in the same situation so they didn't get the support right because the people who might be giving them the support are busy with their teams and every you know so so they were left

to sort of sink or swim floundering really yeah absolutely absolutely and again you know they didn't have the experience to call upon did they so you know.

No context in the space of what you know you're offering they didn't have that stuff it wasn't there you found a gap i think but pete let me throw you a curveball so chris just said that you've got two two of your previous managers on this call so so do us a favor in becoming better managers what was what was brilliant that we did and what could we uh do a little bit better, so i've got to go see you yeah oh that's a shame.

Well i think something that both of you probably did well for me specifically is is trying to keep me focused on actually doing the job at hand and not going off down several rabbit holes you do like a rabbit hole yes i do and as you said actually some of the best advice you gave me was just stop caring so much but whether i put that in the edit i'm not sure but i think i think that is quite hard there's a manager isn't it you know

when you've got someone in a team who's kind of interested and cares about something and really wants to pursue it but you can see that that isn't actually a priority but also how do you keep them motivated right then because you do care about it all and you want to make all the connections and and other people are not ready for you to make the connections yet but then you don't want to pour cold water over that because that's a

brilliant skill to have and it's a brilliant thing that we want that kind of enthusiasm and that kind of strategic view so it's that's a challenge i think i don't know if it's harder when you're remote with that lack of serendipity there tends to be less rabbit holes to go down yeah i mean one of the things with being remote is that we we're used to seeing people why and we can see what they're up to and actually i think that's maybe the

biggest disservice that all organizations have done to their managers is not developing people in how to manage remote teams or not not developing people how to manage by output not input so god it's been years since we were in a world where you clock the hours that people are in and the and the input rather, you know, we should be managing by results and outcomes that, that, that people are producing.

But if you haven't taught people how to do that, but when, you know, it's not something that just magically happens, you have to develop people. That's a skill to develop because otherwise you just keep on doing what you've always done and micromanage and, and look, you know, we've all come across people who will comment on whether you are on teams at whatever time of day, or, you know, I haven't seen you in the office or those those kinds of, of, of.

Just micromanaging type of behaviours. It's not helpful. It's not a great way in the 21st century to manage people. But how do we empower and develop managers to not do that? Because that's all they've ever been taught or all they've ever seen from anyone else. Because if you were in the office and you'd left your desk and you'd gone to get a coffee and you bump into someone and you sit down, no one would ever have known really 10 years ago that that was what was happening.

But now because you've got a yellow light appearing in the corner of your teams everyone assumes you've gone down the co-op or you know you you've gone out i don't know what you'd be doing i've got no experience doing that kind of stuff but whatever those things are that you would be people you could be doing and it becomes very judgy doesn't it people are starting to make assumptions and judging about what you're doing with your time and it's like well actually it's

a real lack of trust that's not how it works that might be management yeah it is because there's many reasons why that thing goes yellow and that could be that you're working on a different screen but that's not what you thought when you saw it was yellow though was it now you know full well that that person who's made that point did not think I was working on a separate screen they thought I'd gone off and done yeah so there's a real piece in there I remember actually when

I first started out way back when I did when I started my career I did a graduate scheme with Royal Mail and and so I had various different roles in in Royal Mail as a sort of recent graduate. And I had someone had told me some mentor had told me that I should try and be judged by output put. So what I produced rather than by how long I was in the office. So I was determined to do this. And I remember starting a new job.

And this was the kind of job where most people would might leave their suit jacket on the back of their chair and pop down the pub, right? So people still think they're in meetings, but actually they're in the pub. She's a, you know, we just have different ways of doing it now, right? We say, oh, do not disturb on our team's thing instead. But I remember the first time, like in the first week in a new job, And I had finished my work. I think it was probably quarter to five or something

like that. And I, inside, I was a quivering wreck. But outward, I was like, I'm going to be confident. I'm going to walk out of here because actually I've done what I need to do. And I'm not going to be judged on the time I spend here, but rather on my outputs. But every time you do it with a new boss until the, you know, you built up the trust and they know what you're like and you produce the goods.

Inside, you're just going, oh my God, you know, I'm terrified of being judged for leaving early or going on time and not being here for that kind of presenteeism and all of that stuff that people get caught up in that politics but once you do it actually people are okay with it it's just you know how do you set that scene for people that building of the trust within in he is really important actually because one of the things i was always keen on

was that the team spent time with the students not any particular group of students but just in the student environment so in the forum where we actually set up our places of work or in the cafes within the different buildings just not the pub that's why you were yellow but but actually because that's that's a very visual reminder of actually what you're doing and it is also the one thing you've got in common with your audience so your academics are there principally to

provide a best possible service of education to students.

The students and professional services are there in principle to provide the best possible student experience whilst at university so if you can remind yourself that your grounding is the middle and the one thing you all have in common that actually not sitting at your desk writing out an ad card plan or a comms plan or a training plan or just whatever other paper the university is requiring that day and just go and actually spending some time in the environment where your principal audience

is that's a good way to show the trust in the stuff and also just to make connections and not feel isolated and have those social connections, which make a massive difference to how we feel at work. And it makes us more productive, right? So one of the things I learned way back when, again, when I was a consultant on a particular project, we had Cake Wednesday. And I'm taking it with me to every organization I go to after that.

And the concept is pretty simple. It's just you have cake on a Wednesday at cake o'clock. And the only rule is that someone brings cake and you're not allowed to talk about work, right?

Because it is about connecting with with your colleagues and I remember doing this at I think it was University of Westminster where I was a program director for a transformation program and I did it there because actually it'd been really confrontational the relationships between the program team and the stakeholders across the university so when I took over oh that's the main challenge that we have to to address so I started

doing this and and would just say oh there's cake in the office if you want to pop by to academics and other stakeholders who didn't really like the program and they They started to do this, but the sponsor did not value this, right? No, no, the sponsor would come in and go, oh, this is where you're slacking. This is where you're not doing any work. And I had to pull her aside and say, this is the most important work we're doing because this is stakeholder engagement.

This is the stuff that's going to oil the wheels of all the other stuff. But it took a couple of months for her to realize that suddenly all the relationships were easier and stuff because it was just perceived as us having a bit of an atta and a piece of cake. Whereas actually, to me, it was some of the most important work I was doing. That is a good segue, though, to our standard closing question is, what is your favourite type of biscuit?

I'm expecting Danish all-butter cookies. I can't believe you didn't give me a heads up on this one. This requires research and testing and all sorts. Oh, my God. So I think there are a few contenders. But being Danish, I love a bit of cinnamon and cardamom because basically there's no baking in Denmark without it. So I think it has to be like a ginger biscuit. It's called a bornike here, brown cake it means, but it is a slappy biscuit.

You get them in Ikea, you know, the tins up at Christmas. They take those ginger thins they like to call. I do, yeah. Do you like a jammy dodger? I am a jammy dodger, yeah. I like a jammy dodger. That's the only fruit I'll accept in my biscuit.

Biscuit but i consider it one of my five a day you pay too long oh my gosh it's fruit i think you have a an offshoot podcast maybe about biscuits i'm surely there's one already we're gonna have to do it we're gonna have to do a recap like biscuits from from our guests yeah, uh look it's been great speaking to you i'm so glad i've met you pete's told me so much i'm glad you've disproved it so it's been wonderful to have you.

See that still sends shivers down my spine peter word i yeah can you yeah that's brilliant i love it when you remember that from a manager or something they're saying you oh no peter word i heard it's not the same remotely though i remember you know when you are in the office with the manager and you go in and then it's like can i just see you in the office for a minute that does have a bit more of an impact on the show can i give you a call yeah yeah happily it doesn't happen as often anymore

that's because you're awesome thank you we should wrap up though yeah thank you so much thank you so much. Music.