Episode 17 - Inclusive change in a diverse and dynamic world with Douglas Flory

Music.

Welcome to Supercharged, the Change Uncommon's podcast. In this edition, we're heading over to the United States of America to chat with the changeologist and culture alchemist. I'm Chris Bradley and Pete and I are delighted to be with Douglas Flory today. Douglas is recognised as a top change management voice on LinkedIn and is on the Council of Advisors for the Association of Change Management Professionals. Douglas has spent his career working in change management, working across many

sectors and also leads change management training. I can't wait to find out more. But before then, as always, let's head over to Barcelona and say hi to Pete. Hi, Chris. Thank you very much. Very topically, I was down at the port in Barcelona on Saturday, looking at all the buildings going up for the America's Cup. So welcome, Douglas. It's great to have you. And we're really looking forward to grilling you with some questions to go over your wisdom today.

Could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, of course. I'm excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to this time. Change management, that's my gig. That's what I I love to do. That's my passion. I've been doing it now for almost something number of years, but it's been a long time. And I originally got started, like most people, not in change management. I actually got started in finance. And then they introduced me to project management, and then Lean Six Sigma.

And then eventually change management came my way. And I just have all these tools in my toolbox that I kind of blend together. And it's been a great journey ever since. Since then, you've worked across a lot of different industries though, right? So I wondered if we could start by, could you tell us a bit about some of the standout moments and things that you've really enjoyed doing? The best thing that I love about my job is the irony of it.

It's managing change, right? And a lot of times people get scared or fearful when there's change or something like that, or there's the ambiguity of something. But I actually like it when something with change management and something new come together for the first time. I think that's exciting and captivating. Like one of my favorite phrases is change management and fill in the blank are great together because something like that.

And I've had opportunities to explore things that I never would have considered before, like D, E, and I. Putting those two together, it just makes sense now that I think about it. But because there's some common... Tools and applications and encounters that will happen. But I never would have thought about that. Or, you know, we all went through the recent pivot to remote work. I never would have thought about, hey, change management should be leading that.

Or, you know, lots of different areas with like legal or procurement, real estate.

It's just been a very interesting combination. And that's really where I really enjoy it the most is where we can do the traditional things we think of, like policy or technology always focused on the people of course but being able to explore those new areas has changed management matures i think that's fun and interesting what was it d-e-n-i did you say here in the states we call it d-e-i and it's diversity equity inclusion and belonging and so they'll have groups employee resource

groups that are dedicated to various demographics to support them along the way yeah it's quite yeah it's big here too we just call call it edi so why has that stood out for you there was something to get involved with you know i joined a company in there and during covid era and during that period they hired a dei leader i reached out to her and i just wanted to welcome her and that kind of thing and she started sharing some of the challenges she was facing

and i said as i was just listening to her and everything i was like wow you know that sounds familiar and what i was hearing was like stakeholder stakeholder identification, resistance, champions.

How do I get my message out there? How do I get buy-in? What's in it for me? All these different things that she was encountering. Because basically what she was doing was just going around the company and meeting various people to, you know, share their story and what she's going to be doing. And she got a lot of resistance, surprisingly, to her. And as I heard about those things, I was like, you know, So I think I have some

tools that could help you." And we've kind of started partnering together as we work together. It really helped her to accelerate and be better prepared and analyze and do what she needed to do successfully. And that's not something that, I don't know, I just, for some reason at that time, I never considered, well, this should go together. This just makes sense.

We've had a very similar conversation where I work at the moment, and we have a change management office, and we have the equivalent of what you're saying in terms of disability equality and so on. And they're two separate columns.

And we could work together, and we can do, we do talk to each other but i haven't seen the two put together as a kind of package i guess here's how i think about i think about de and i and people ultimately it's about people right and number that's number one number two is as you're trying to embed this into the culture of an organization that's change and so you have to be able to understand the culture and you have to be able to understand

how to get people on board and otherwise you're not going to have success if the employees don't identify or get involved with the program that you're creating for them. And so, I view that as another lens on change management. And it's not that DEI and change management have to be in the same office. You could consult or partner with them and maybe do some coaching on the side, something like that. And that's kind of the model we followed. We didn't have like the same office.

We had two separate centers of excellence for that. But you could always partner together because ultimately, you're both trying to achieve the same thing for the company and for the employees. So it's always focused on the people.

Why not figure it out no it's actually quite interesting because in the background i've just remembered that where i'm working at the moment we have a quality impact assessment and we're about to roll out some significant training for the new supercomputer that's going to go across the organization and within the organization there's a whole different roles i set roles of people who either work in you know the markets or business sector or deep science and actually the you

know the diversity of the audience internally is almost like four or five different types of businesses all coming together from a very research heavy focus piece to commercial alarm right through to the financials or you know the meteorologists who are science focused and and then a very data-driven aspect as well and actually when you think about that quality impact assessment in terms of at least lnd learning and development it's

actually really applicable to put that right up front to make sure that the materials that interventions we want to land well as you described it douglas you know people can identify with it and say actually yeah i can tune into that that's appealing to my you know my personal neurolinguistic needs or you know my my ability to be able to just read something on screen right through from either end of the scale there.

So it just reminded me of the same process just to go and ask for a copy of it before we actually branch into design notes. So I was in the background quickly saying, yep, got my mate here, Douglas. He's tipped me off to remind myself about the equality impact assessment. So yeah, good stuff. You're rolling out a supercomputer?

Yeah. I forgot to look. Where do you work? I'm working at the Met Office in the UK and we're partnered strategically with Microsoft and we're building, or Microsoft are building with the Met Office team team a new supercomputer that will be in the cloud so to date our supercomputers have all been on premise but for the first time they're going to be on the cloud and the first upgrade is almost a like for like slightly bigger and future upgrades will take us to many many times the current size

which obviously improves the quality of science that gets pulled through into the products and services that either government business and commercial arms need to you know.

Make well decisions save lives and thrive essentially that's the same that computer that supercomputer could be the greatest thing in the world that if people don't know how to use it it's just going to sit there and gather dust right yeah absolutely it's the exploit it's the exploitation of these things that really do drive the benefit because otherwise like you say it's a it's a set of servers set of racks stuck in a secure location wearing wearing

away but if we don't we don't pull the benefit out of them and you know essentially help people thrive and survive then what's the really what's the point i hope that my sleuthing on your linkedin profile has been correct and you advertise your services as an independent consultant is that correct yeah i'll do i'll do that what's your okay what's your kind of career journey being you know have you ended up as a as a consultant and and

what are some of the advantages or disadvantages of you know framing your services in that way yeah so when i started quite some time ago you know i I was totally new to the, to the whole industry and to the concept of change management. So I was exploring LinkedIn and like, how many people are out there and what's this look like? And, you know, kind of had the, the honeymoon glasses on him a little bit.

And so as I learned that there were so many more people out there and around the world, I thought to myself, wow, what's going to differentiate me from all of these people? What can I, what can I do to become the best that I can be as a change leader? And my, my professional journey has been that I've either been an employee and I've let change, or I've had opportunities to work in consulting firms and led change.

And so as I bounced between those two sides of the table there, if you will, I kind of wondered, I was always thinking, I wonder what they're doing on the other side of the table, or why are they asking that question? What are they thinking? And I wanted to understand both sides of the table. And that's when I realized, I think that's what can make me. Perhaps differentiate myself and allow me to be the best.

Because when you have those conversations, whether you're consulting with a client or a company, or whether you're talking with a consultant, or whether you're the employee partnering with that consultant, you understand all dimensions as you go through it.

And I think that that's ultimately how I've gotten here. So I've looked at it more as not necessarily a binary choice of A or B, but more about which one's the the most unique opportunity and where where can i go and how can i help bring the best value and lead change successfully for a great experience for everyone that's how i've gotten to where i am today do you find people respond to you differently than you were when you're an employee yeah they do positively

and constructively a lot of times they're like well you know they there's the binary question of why would you want to change to become an employee if i apply for a a job as an employer. And so I have to explain that same situation I just did with you. But then on the converse, it gives me a lot of advantages and pros because people are like, oh man, I'm working with this consulting firm and I don't understand what's going on. And we're completely new to change.

And the whole thing that a lot of people experience these days. All of a sudden, my trusted advisor is able to come out and be able to partner with them and explain, here's what's happening. Here's why they're asking that question.

Here's what that means. or here's their vision that kind of thing so it's got its moments but i think typically it's for the best is how i'd say do you do you just wish you could get stuck in and do things sometimes though or is it kind of more hands off i don't care if i'm an employee i don't care if i'm consulting, i just want to help you lead change and that's truly what my passion is and what i love to do so.

I think that's part, getting back to one of your original questions, that's how I've had the opportunity to experience so many different verticals, so many different industries, so many different ways of implementing change, whether it's culture or systems or people or business or what have you. Being able to put those things together, I think that's been able to experience those things.

Things have you had a situation doctors where you've had to do all of those in the same kind of projects or program where you're looking at both technology culture business kind of yeah business change and you're looking across and there's kind of like this overwhelming tide of people looking at you go what what you're going to do then yeah actually i had an experience recently where i was working with a client

i was consulting in this instance and you know they were are looking to update their systems. Now, I say update, I need to give you some context. This is a company that has been in business for over 100 years. A lot of heritage, a lot of legacy, a lot of, you know, this is the way we've always done it. But at the same time, we want to refresh, we want to be new, we want to be, you know, current with the millennials and the new generations.

But we also want to really value and emphasize our historical wins, our legacy, how we got here. So how do you do all those things together? And that was one of the more interesting opportunities I had because how often do you have a chance to kind of refresh a 100-year-old entity that has been involved in so many different things? So I found that really interesting and definitely got into the culture, the mindsets, the behaviors, some of the values and things like that.

It was a lot of fun. It was one of those things, again, where I was like, well, how do you refresh a 100-year-old company and make it new? That's, you know, so not something you encounter every day. I think you should do a podcast on that, Douglas, because I'd listen. That definitely sounds like a learning opportunity to me. Yeah, it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

But, I mean, that's one of the things I love about this job, right, is exploring that ambiguity, that new ground, and kind of breaking the mold as I think our industry and profession is at a maturation point and we're growing and expanding and I think we're evolving into new areas. Something I wanted to talk about and I was thinking, I don't know, maybe we can merge it together, but was a kind of top three tips type of thing.

And I was originally thinking, what would your top three tips be if someone was setting up a change management office or they were just bringing in that kind of change capability to their organization?

But i'm wondering if we expand it slightly as well to just tips that you would give to lead change as well because i think they do go together in terms of building that capability.

This was inspired by the way by your post on the lego change management office which i loved that was a lot of fun like i was surprised at the response but people love legos and i'm one of them so i have children and over the christmas break recently they put they took all their legos and merged them into like one giant universe of something. It's like a hodgepodge of like Jazz Club, Harry Potter, you know, all the different things.

And they've got this big, huge world they created up there. Love it. Sorry, today purged. Thanks. Okay, yeah. The interesting thing about that Lego post was that I think what it does is it actually creates some fun around it, but it also creates a vision, right? About how to create a center of excellence. And it kind of got a really strong reaction to, yeah, I really like this, or I really want this, right?

And I think a lot of times when people think of center of excellence, they're trying to understand like, you know, there's always that question, where does change management fit? Is it in HR? Is it in IT? Or where is it? And I think we should have like a strategy office at an organization.

And that strategy office should be a blend of different methodologies and skills together, so that we can ultimately achieve whatever the company's objectives are and steer and navigate those unexpected and the expected things. When you're setting it up, number one, you got to have a vision. Number two, if you're going to have a vision, then you got to have a charter. You know, why are we here? What's our purpose? Who we serve? Those kind of fundamentals.

Because what I found through experience when I've set up centers of excellence is that oftentimes, you know, there's a company that has thousands of employees, maybe, you know, all over the world, globally spread out. And there's typically like maybe two to six of you or something. thing. How do you two to six people manage change across thousands of people across the entire globe? You know, the numbers and the math don't always work out too well there.

So you have to be able to figure out a strategy and a structure and a plan to be able to have an intake process to educate them and teach them on these concepts, but also be involved at the right levels. So I guess that's tip number two. And tip number three is draw upon the people side of change.

I know that sounds stereotypical or commonly said all the time in change management, but more than ever, I believe that skill sets and leadership need more focus on the people side of change, the power skills, if you will, that are often historically called the soft skills. I think we're at an evolutionary point right now where those type of skills and that focus and those talents are really what's going to accelerate organizations and people forward into the future, even today. I like those.

I do like those. And it kind of drives me back into something Pete and I have talked a lot about over the last couple of years is that the combination of the skills needed to be a product owner, combining that with change management actually really does start to evolve the thinking on how we.

Deliver that cluster of changes not just people technology or process or culture but bringing them together if you start off with your vision as you would a product and you work your way down through your your stories which is your charter and then you build your way through into your approach your cadences and your mechanisms this is a really good good good starting point of three tips i think it was yeah i like something i'm just reflecting on i found this

for your second point in terms of capacity management and how do you actually prioritize and so on this everywhere Everywhere I've worked so far, I've always tried to get to the point of having a service offering for like, you know, your platinum, your gold and your silver standard that you give out to people. Chris, you were one of the people that came up with that.

But the challenge I've always had, and actually not just as a change manager also, but it's ultimately, you know, you can try and tell someone that you're only giving them silver service and they should go away.

But if they've got the money and they've got the ear of the chief exec and and it's something they want to do and it does have an impact on people you kind of have to listen to them and you have to do it yeah but i want to put some context in there that we had a small team we couldn't do everything for everybody i don't know it wasn't it wasn't just that team no i found it actually almost every team i've worked with has tried to take that model but the reality of doing it is

always a bit different it is it is tough a lot of it comes down though to the the the impact and the the benefit that comes from it so if you go output outcome benefit you know how much and how much resource you've got to deliver you know a portfolio of 30 projects or or you know a number of projects and programs i do still think you have to have a point which says you're going to get guidance and that's pretty much all we can get because

over here is this mahima for the finance change which is supposed to return two billion pounds of benefit and if i'm given my yeah i'm going to attract five new customers or 10 billion pounds of benefit i'm going to get told off if i send and you're over there kind of approach. I could be wrong in that thinking type, just to correct me. No, I think you're both spot on in both comments. I mean...

It's not just a change management thing. It's not just a project management thing, a scrum or product owner or whatever your role is. We all have to figure out some kind of way to prioritize the responsibilities, the objectives, the KPIs, OKRs, whatever you use. We have to be able to figure out how are we going to prioritize them? What's number one?

What's number two? So I think that's a challenge that's not unique just to change management, but everybody faces these days because there's demand 24-7, 365 for something to be done yesterday. And the second thing is, to your point, I mean, somebody shared something interesting with me the other day that I'd never, like I kind of knew, but I'd never heard it said.

And they said, you know, I'm a project manager. And another person said, you know, I'm a scrum person or I'm an agile fan or whatever, you know, context they were. And I said, ultimately, what we're trying to do is create change. I was like, you know, I kind of stopped and thought about that for a minute. And I was like, well, yeah, I guess you do create change in the sense that you're an agent of change, creating some kind of product or output that is available to do something.

So, you know, we're all in this together in terms of what change is. But the ability to lead change or manage change is different.

We're all trying to do the same thing. We're just trying to help each other. that really stood kind of cut me off guard a little bit like wait a minute you're you're an agent of team i never thought about that agent of change sounds cooler than change agent i think i first take that get a brand team on that a couple of bits i wanted to talk about first was to explain a little bit we've never talked about the acmp on this podcast so i i

think we have talked about the change management institute so you're you're our first guest that can kind of to give the pitch for what ACMP does I wonder alongside that as well whether something we really wanted to get into is to talk a bit about the cultural differences that you might see in the US as well in terms of how people handle or go through change so take your pick.

CMI and ACMP are almost like one in the same it's just that CMI is really they got their focus and their their basis and foundation is really in like Australia Asia Pacific type area they've also so got some other areas in Europe and things like that, but that's primarily where their core audience of focus is. Ultimately we're looking to do kind of the same kind of thing almost. ACMP stands for the Association of Change Management Professionals.

And it is the equivalent to like what project managers use with PMI, Project Management Institute, or HR people use with SHRM, that kind of thing. It's a professional body dedicated to the profession and the industry to to lead the thought leadership. The professionalism, the ethics, the standards, all of that as a place for professionals who are interested or involved in that community.

And they want to have a place where they can come for conferences, webinars, continuous learning, professional credentials, things like that. And so that's what ACMP is. It's the global leader in change. They've got chapters in places like in Africa, South Africa, Ukraine, all over North America, Canada, Europe, all over the world and continues to grow. And to be a part of that was an amazing, humbling, privileged experience that I had.

And, yeah, just to be able to see change, not just from a North American, Canadian, U.S. perspective, but, you know, to see some people out there, like, there's so much talent in our community around the world. Especially, like, I never would have thought, but I learned very quickly, Australia has a wealth of talent, a wealth of talent. And that's, you know, that's where your friends from the last podcast came from, with Flint Studios and everybody, Gilbert and Peter and everybody. everybody.

Europe, of course, has a wealth of talent as well. I've learned so much from them. But I'm also learning from Africa and how they approach things. And it's so fun and interesting. I think that was so fun and interesting to be able to learn a new perspective, a new cultural dynamic to bring to my toolkit, my tool belt. And it just really helped me to connect with people on a better level.

So that's a little bit about what ACMP is. What's your role in ACNP? So originally I got started here in my local state and we created a chapter for ACNP here in my state. And it's the only one here, still is. And then they annually, they have like an annual election process where you can be part of the global board of directors. And I thought, okay, I'll throw my hat in the ring. See what happens. I never thought I had a chance.

I thought, you know, I'm one in a million. There's probably super talent and superheroes out there that'll get it, right? And I went through the process. And sure enough, they called me one day and, hey, Doug, you know, this is so-and-so. And we want to congratulate you. You've been elected by your global peers to be on the global board. And I was like, oh, come on. Who is this? Come on. And I hung up. And she called me back, and I was like, no, I'm serious. I'm like, really? Me?

You know, it just floored me. And so you serve a three-year commitment on the board. I just finished my third year. And during my second and third year, I also was elected to the treasury role. role. And now as I completed my board of directors election, we created something new called the Council of Advisors. And what we're, it's brand new.

And what we're trying to do is bring together the historical legacy leaders of ACMP and help to create something new that where people who are really experienced or tenured in change management can really find value. I think there's a lot of of growth in the industry right now. A lot of people who are curious about change. My friend calls it the change, curious being called up that. And so there's a lot of them and there's a lot of people who are new to the profession.

And so we're, we're certainly seeing a lot of uptick in those audiences and personas, but we have to make sure that we're continuing to develop and help engage our tenured experience leaders along the way. And that's what we're hoping to do is we're like a council of elders.

This i like it yeah it's got a lord of the rings feel to it it does sound really good and the things you'd go to to get a new t-shirt and free pen i'm amazed i know just think about that you walked around i'm part i'm on a council of advisors the the elders or whatever you call it.

That would be pretty impressive, wouldn't it? Your LinkedIn profile would just explode. It is pretty cool, though, to be fair. I remember when I was moving in different parts of my career and ending up in change management, looking around, there wasn't a lot of people to call upon to ask for help.

So especially like a collective as well, where you wouldn't just be asking one people, you'd be asking a group that would be able to give you a variety of opinions to chew over, rather than just accepting one route is better than the other. It just didn't exist. It still really in some ways doesn't now. Now, this is where the pod does help. I know we've connected people that hadn't connected before just through listening to guests and what have you. So you never know where these things lead.

But, yeah, I think they're a great initiative, that kind of founding council. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, I mean, our minds are better when we're together and we combine all that experience. Think about how much we can help the future leaders of change or those big hairy rocks that we're all facing. You know, here's some different perspectives and ideas that we've experienced here, some things we learned.

And the work i agree i mean we undertake a set of training for a methodology of choice or whichever one our company inflicts upon us and and that gives us a set of guardrails i say many times but actually that gets you so far and it's the the experience and the the you know the wounds on your back they're the ones that tell you where sometimes which is the better path to take and sometimes you know it feels like that pathway might be slightly less likely

to cause you an injury if there's a group you can go and you know pose your questions or or thoughts to tell us a a bit about the states what's it like doing change there but what do you see different elsewhere you know the interesting thing i'll say about acmp that i really appreciate is that they partner very closely with all the big names in change management so you know the cotters the pro size and and everybody like that so but the thing about the association that i really

appreciate is to a couple of things and i don't want to number them but number one is their method agnostic So they don't subscribe to this is the way and follow the checklist or, you know, check the boxes or whatever, right? They do provide a framework called the standard. And it's built around, you know, the best practices, the standards of change management.

And it was created by people from all around the world and as they did it together and then what they did was they also got it certified through iso which is if you're familiar with iso they have a global standard for that so that's what helps also certify for the testing and and the the information that you're asked as well as the as well as the content so that's one thing i really loved about it and that really applies universally because you know so many of us like you

said that's subscribed to a certain methodology because that's what our company has chosen or whatever. And so therefore you have to adapt to that one. Being able to understand the fundamentals so that you can go from Cotter to Luern to ProSci or whatever the different styles are that are out there. I think that's ultimately what I appreciate about that. The other thing I really appreciate about it is the code of ethics.

They have a code of ethics that applies to you as a change management professional. And I think in today's world, that stands out a lot to me. Simply, maybe it's a personal choice. choice, but in today's environment, we see a lot of news or articles or social media posts and things where ethics and decisions and choices and behaviors and actions and things are always in play. And a code of ethics is something that applies to all of us, regardless of what methodology we subscribe to.

And I think that I'm getting to your culture question here now. So here it comes. So when you're in Turkey or whether you're in, let's say, Central or South America or perhaps the UK or where have you, knowing that you have those and you have people from all over the world come together to share information that you can, you know, this is my tribe, this is my people. And like you said before, I can ask questions and get answers.

I can continuously learn by attending webinars, by presenting and sharing information, or joining their social platform of different information. I think that's how I learned so much about the culture was because you would see their challenges or where they were. I'll give you a personal experience, and I'm not going to say her name, but she knows who she is, but she's in the Ukraine. And she started a chapter just before the war there.

And think about what type of change she's going through as she's trying to lead change during the last two years. I think it's been two years now in Ukraine. And that's totally different than... You know, just the traditional change management that we think of when we think of change management, because what I came to know was there were, there's a different type of change that people were going through. They were going through like, you know, almost like the, the peer Maslow's pyramid.

Like I need the most fundamental thing. How can people help me emotionally? How can people help my family? What do they do?

It's kind of like coaching, but, but there's a group of professionals out there who deal with like you've gone through some kind of life-changing event or some kind of emergency type of situation and the trauma that's the one i'm looking for sorry trauma coaching and they often encounter change with people yeah it's on the people right but it's not it's not change management like we think but it's definitely influencing how people go go through change,

help me get through this change and the emotions and the outcomes of what I've been through. That was an amazing story to watch her go through, but also try and strengthen her people that way, but also any resources we could do to connect and network people with her.

It was an amazing experience to be able to watch her go through that and just how strong of a person she was and help people lead through change individually but also professionally as a business and as a chapter and to really evolve that there that was she she's amazing that was one opportunity i had to learn about culture and change what do you think makes change are there any things you can pick out that are specific to the u.s though or things that we might find a bit bit different

i would say in the u.s we're probably more microwavable okay i don't know but like instant like i gotta have it now and if i have to wait 30 seconds to get my whatever. That's too long i should have had it like yesterday and we've gotten so i don't know. Digitalized and so almost immune to the fact that i can do this like that quick you know the the whole, I'm still amazed by the fax machine, personally. I can send a fax and a picture

of a fax to somebody anywhere in the world. But we kind of take that for granted, right? And I think here in America, we take a lot of those things for granted. And I think that we're so built up on speed and what's next. And I've got to achieve my next goal and objective. And, you know, it's just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going.

And as I watch other parts of the world, I'm like, why is that country ranked, quote-unquote, the happiest place on earth or the country with the most joy or whatever it is that they experience in life? As I study them, it's a totally different mindset. It's a totally different culture, totally different set of values and perspectives. And I think it's a totally different pace culture-wise.

I think we pick up on that yeah in just bits you listen to in media and politics and and so on in that it's very especially in the tech space it's very like we need to be more like silicon valley we need to be agile we need to be doing things fast we've got to do it now so yeah i can imagine from what you're saying that living in that yeah i mean not in silicon valley but in in that kind of culture must be quite jarring from a change perspective though It can be.

I actually did work in Silicon Valley and where I work, we have something, the Silicon Valley slogan or nickname, I guess you could say, it's kind of expanded to different parts of the US, but it has its own unique. So like where I live, there's a lot of mountains and skiing, that kind of thing. So there's Silicon Slopes and there's a lot of technology companies here. And then there's Silicon this and Silicon S and other parts of America too, right?

Because Silicon Slopes is beginning to be distributed and remote and all that kind of stuff. Because companies go to different places. I just want to go back to that culture thing because something else that just popped in my head was over the last few years, as I was watching the prime minister of New Zealand, watching her go what she went through. And then here in the States, I'm watching our leadership. And I'm like, what did...

Bipolar approach is this you know and from such different angles and what's important to the leader and how they helped their people collectively go through something or not go through something collectively i think that that's another example that stood out to me as well and one of the things i pick up over here douglas is something that's caught my eye over the last couple years in terms of a cultural thing and i don't know where it reflects

across the world because i haven't asked anybody else but this obsession with resistance before you've even you know formed your plan for change it's it's uh it's everywhere you go everyone's like that's not gonna you won't be able to do that you know they're gonna.

Fight you back on that you have to stand back you'll have to let them do themselves i'm kind of like we haven't even really got to the nub of you know going right back to the vision of what the change is let alone what the plan of even using ad card would be to to build up to remove the resistance but the obsession with resistance i see over over over here particularly through projects i've either worked on or spoken to people about it seems to be really high

in terms of a cultural fear and i think it is a fear i don't think that i think it is somewhat unfounded i think most employees you know state in the obvious here but if they understand the reason for the change they're more likely to accept i mean looking at one of your posts i love the one where the road splits off and the road wheels off in one direction and the other road is dead straight but a dead straight road was the one that we've got rid of you know but i

think that that's that's just fear that's fear mongering isn't it at the very beginning by people who are you know crystallizing myths by telling them that they'll never like it so then they believe they'll never like it and then that's it we're addicted to never liking it you know a long way to say the same thing i guess but yeah that's something i don't know i don't know whether you find the same over there because the the demand for something quicker means you don't get so much time

to have resistance i don't know i'm curious i have seen a lot more posts on. Resistance, just the topic in general. And when I see those, I think of a couple of things in response. Number one is, why is that? I've tried to understand. And what I try to do is step away from change management and look at it from a bigger picture.

And I think what we're facing today societally, especially here in the States, is more back to what we said before, A lot of labeling, a lot of stereotyping, a lot of grouping, because as humans, we tend to, you know, for example, you know, somebody might be seeing or watching this podcast and go, oh, well, there's two people with glasses. Obviously, the third one needs glasses or doesn't know about the value of glasses. So probably these people here, you know, that kind of thing.

So we see a lot of fractionalism, if that's the right word. A lot of people trying to find their group, but they end up splitting into smaller and smaller entities to try and be with their groups. And I think that's part of the resistance mindset that we're seeing is like, oh, well, that's not us. I'm not in that group. So therefore, you know, it's us versus them or that kind of thing.

That's one thing i think that's kind of a catalyst to a lot of the hyperbole around change resistance i think we contribute to that sometimes so because some part of what we do and you know that stakeholder planning or or assigning people into group does that yeah we do we do but it's typically based on like you know organizational role region the the the characteristics and the the attributes of the company, not so much the demographics of the people, more, I guess you could say.

And I do agree with you that sometimes as change leaders, we tend to maybe shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit by using the wrong words like, you know, change fatigue or change management sometimes is a bit of a oxymoron. You know, there's lots of words that, you know, change fails 70% of the time is something Something we often read even though it's not a true factor. So, you know, those kinds of things that we're saying about ourselves can also hurt us as well.

I think we need to evaluate our own language, our own mindsets and thinking as we lead change and think about, am I reflecting what I'm teaching? Am I teaching, you know, doing what I'm preaching? Walking the walk. The second thing that comes to my mind is like when I see all those articles on resistance, it's always about you got to overcome it. You got to beat it. You got to win it. And it's like us versus them. And I don't think that's what it should be. I think it should be understand it.

Because if you don't understand that resistance, then you don't truly fully understand the change as well as you should. Spot on. Absolutely agree. If you are trying to overcome resistance, that means you're trying to win.

So you're right, they're wrong. You win, they lose. And that's not what we should be doing. I say this on other things, Douglas, we say about taking therapy at the very beginning of a change to understand what it is to help listen to the fears right up front. Because if you've got that right up front, you don't need to worry about the resistance because you'll build your change plan around what their fears are early on, right? Yeah, yeah.

And oftentimes as change managers, we do wear therapy hats. So there's lots of things we do, right? But I think it's about understanding it, embracing it.

And if you do that then you're building the trust and you're gaining the voice you're hearing the voice and you're gaining their confidence rather than coming to the table at the end and they're like hey wait a minute or you know i don't know anything about this or you know disrupting your whole effort that you put in the time and the money and the budget and the sweat and the tears and the blood and you got to embrace it don't don't look at it as like you know.

Darth Vader versus Luke Skywalker kind of thing. That's the soundbite, Pete. That's the soundbite. I was thinking of summing a bit more. You probably won't know who the Borg are or what Doctor Who is, or perhaps that's too British. I don't know. You do? Okay, yeah. No, it's that assimilation mindset of the Borg. Maybe that's more where we need to go.

Yeah, maybe that resonates more. There's one last question we'd like to finish on, which is apparently quite a cultural distinguisher we found last week with the aussies and it's uh it's quite mundane i think but it's just what if you could tell us what your favorite biscuit is and we don't mean potatoes and gravy i learned this the other day yeah cookies yeah i learned the other day biscuits can be like a potato covered in gravy can't it that's that's an american thing biscuits and gravy i

wasn't even gonna respond with that that's that's yeah that's a totally different thing i just thought i just thought of what my favorite biscuit is okay so this is when i was a little child my grandmother would make this cookie and i was basically it was kind of like peanut it was dough but it was it had some peanut butter flavor to it a little bit and a little bit of sugar on top and then you'd warm it up and then in the middle you'd put like a hershey kiss oh

nice have you heard of those yep yep and they were called kisses i don't know know but when they were warm they would just go in your mouth and they would just like melt and they were so good that combination of peanut butter and chocolate of course and just a hint of a little bit of sugar on top that's probably my favorite cookie because of my childhood that sounds way better than anything we've talked about it's been super great having

you and i know we'll do this again i've got a great idea about the next one actually involving you doug so we'll talk offline about that but thank you so. Much for joining us good to meet you as well thank you thank you very much. Music.