Types of Photographers who Shoot Nude Models (Part 1)

Hey everyone, before we get into this episode, I want to take a moment to acknowledge something about the language being used.

Throughout this conversation, you'll hear a lot of binary gendered terms, like girls and women and men, when referring to photographers and models. While my co-hosts and I speak from our own experiences as cisgender female models, I want to recognize that not everyone in this industry identifies that way. Non-binary and male models absolutely exist and are an important part of this space.

Additionally, while not all photographers who hired models for nude shoots fit into the category that is being portrayed in this episode, many tend to be heterosexual men hiring femme-presenting models. That dynamic naturally influences some of the topics we discuss, but the insights in this episode may apply to a wide range of creative collaborations. For the sake of continuity and ease of conversation, the language in this episode

may lean toward the binary, but modeling is for everyone. We appreciate you listening with that in mind. Now, let's jump in!

Okay okay i need to do another disclaimer for this entire episode which by the way is chopped up to two parts because we talked for such a long time about everything and everything was super interesting and fascinating the stigma of eroticism is going to be completely exposed in the photographer side and the model side and this is a side that exposes the elements of sex work and how it plays into the model photography world as well where many models and photographers out there do not want

to address this it is definitely a factor so this podcast in general isn't only for like artistic models and photographers we're talking about the whole scope of things and my co-host for this podcast is a super open-minded super eloquent super fascinating person and so I really think that you're going to find her perspective kind of balances the stigma of, you know, what is sexuality? What is model photography?

What drives us? You know, what is artistic and creative and what is pandering to giving somebody pleasure? So, yeah, this is going to be kind of a wild ride. And there were definitely parts where you can hear I was like a little bit frabbergasted by my co-host's elaborate depictions, which will put your mind on a roller coaster journey, I promise you. It's wild, you know. This is my disclaimer, you know, like this episode is not going to be what you think it's going to be.

So, all right, let's go for real now. Music.

The podcast where we have deep conversations with fellow freelance models. And today I'm really excited to be having a deep dive with my friend Nadia, a.k.a. Vika Ruslanova. Say hello. Hello. Thank you so much for making time for me. I know that you have got a lot going on and I'm just so happy that we were able to connect again. Absolutely. It's nice to hear from you and happy to always talk to you. I find you very intellectual in the way you talk about this industry and I really

appreciate that. Oh thank you. Well today's topic is I've actually asked a bunch of models to do this one with me and I haven't had any bites until you said yes. So thank you for agreeing to do with apparently a taboo topic which I don't think it's taboo but I'll take one for the team. It's okay. So, by the way, this topic has been requested by at least three different photographers who don't know each other over email.

And what we're going to be talking about today is the different types of photographers who photograph models. And certain photographers that emailed and requested me also wanted me to go down the rabbit hole on the GWC category, what it means, and all of that, too. So we're going to get into all of this. Let's start digging. Okay. So there's a spectrum of photographers who work with models and it ranges. Right, Nadia?

Mm-hmm. Very, very much. And on one side of the spectrum, you've got your professional photographers or serious artists, working photographers, people who are making money and like, you know, they've got a brand or whatever. On the opposite side of the spectrum. There are the hobbyists. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say this big division is based on what is your intention for the content? Is it for marketing, for a product, or for an artistic goal, or is it for a personal fulfillment?

And what that personal fulfillment can be is super, super broad, but are you trying to make money off of this on the back end or are you doing this for yourself? I think that is like the first fork in this very, very, very long road. Yes. Yeah. So, and I would just kind of like to set a disclaimer that anybody listening, like if you're a photographer and you're like, oh, where do I land in the spectrum? We're not here laying judgment on anybody for where you lie in the spectrum.

We're not saying that either side of the spectrum is like good or bad because there's definitely like professional photographers that are creepy predators and there's definitely hobbyists that are nice and I would work with them every day of the year. Of course and I think it's also important to realize that like people change and they shift right somebody can want to do something for personal pleasure then they might want to monetize it then they might get burnt out and want to

do it for themselves again. So like, it's all fluid. It's fine to change. It's fine to have different purposes for different projects based on different needs. I just think it's important to understand.

What the various needs are and like how they get presented and handled yeah absolutely yeah and I think that if you're true to yourself and you're shooting your photography for like the purpose that like you know works for you then that's good however I mean I've worked with some photographers that you can tell that they're shooting for the joy of creativity but they're like you know they've got a main job, but they want photography to start making them money.

But like, are you doing it for the money or are you doing it for the art? You know, it's like, I guess with modeling, it's the same thing. It's like, we're doing this for the money or the art or both at the same time, right? I guess this is like a common conundrum. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society. So pretty much most of what humans have to do is for money, which is so depressing.

And that's just the reality of it. And obviously, it's easy to say, well, you know, I have this amazing hobby and my friends tell me that I'm great, so I'm going to try to make a dollar off of it. Right. The world's changing. What people are willing to pay for is changing. The platforms in which to present those goods and services is changing. And the people are still staying the same, right?

As models we get to see this change more because we are the providers of you know the content ourselves like we are the people that either hold the bar of soap so you can sell it or we are selling our image our companionship the process of photographing us right and I think it's easy for the photographers especially people who aren't like in the. Marketing side of things to get a little bit lost as the world changes around them.

Because, yeah, like it's hard to just say, oh, well, I'm just going to sell photos on the internet now and recoup my expenses of the model. You can try, but it's just a different landscape than it was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. And people need to understand it's not about them.

It's just set the world wants different things now yes and I definitely do want to provide a section later on in this podcast about how photographers can make money with their photography but before we get into that I do want to dive into some fun photographer archetypes but before we get into the archetypes though, I think we need to address what each of our definitions of GWC is. For the listener who doesn't know what GWC means, can you define it in your own words?

So the textbook definition of GWC is guy with camera. And I think the using the word guy implies an element of casualness and not necessarily professionalism. It's not, you know, professional with camera.

And to me, it gives an undertone of somebody who is looking to create photos or videos for a more personal consumption or for a personal project that could lead to income, but fundamentally, they're not like sponsored by a brand to shoot or, you know, they're not going for like a gallery showing or something like that. So it's people who seek this type of collaboration from a more personal desire.

I love your definition of that. And I love that you implied that guy does kind of connote that it's a casual thing because I do get that. And I also, a lot of people that use the term GWC are using it with like a derogatory meaning. It's like hobbyist doesn't like, you know, hobbyist doesn't have the gendered descriptor, right? Hobbyist. It's actually just about to say that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hobbyist could be anybody, but guy with camera typically refers to heterosexual males.

And it kind of steers the thought into, well, why is a man doing this? What is the man's interest? Oh, we're going to make an assumption that the model is female. Okay, now we're running with all these sexual assumptions over the dynamic. And sex is controversial. Sexual expression is controversial.

Sexual desires are controversial. And I think with that it puts kind of a veil on gd gwc that is not very easily definable yeah right yeah and like a lot of people assume that when you say gwc that you are implying that the person is creepy and that you shouldn't work with them which i fully disagree with because with if freelance modeling, GWCs make the world go round, right? Absolutely. And I think this is something where as a model, you need to have like professional empathy for people.

If there is someone who is working with you and they're being respectful and they're treating you with dignity, and yeah, they're just a guy holding a camera, taking photos of you, but they are doing their best, they're treating you like an equal collaborator, and they're paying you fairly, how dare you talk shit about them? I think that's terrible on the industry. And I think it's very unwise for women to say that because they just perpetuate these tropes that are harmful.

And it just fosters a lot of anger and resentment on both sides. I think people have an inflated ego that like, oh, I'm so, I'm so much only, you know, the best of the best are going to work with me. Like, no girl, you know, you're, Get your employment from people who are just regular people who are willing to give you a good job and don't inflate your head that they're beneath you in any way. You need them just as much as they need you. And if they're treating you appropriately,

like, don't pass judgment. That's just wrong. Yeah. And for people listening, if you are a hobbyist photographer and you don't want to be referred to as a GWC because you feel that it's negative, we hear you. You know what? We don't have, like, hobbyist, creative is cool, whatever. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important for people to define their own labels. And if somebody defines themselves as a GWC, like, they have to be aware that there's a stigma that comes to that name.

Yeah. And like they have the power to change how people have their first impression of them. You know, they can say, oh, I'm a hobbyist. I'm looking for blank. Great. I have a different assumption of what you're going to want. So yeah, just power in words and people really need to understand how they present themselves. Yeah. Side note, when I get an email from somebody that says, hey, I'm not really professional, but I really like your photos and I would like to create something together.

You know, I'm just a guy with a camera trying to make something cool. I love that. That just screams that the person is being genuine with me and they're being honest. And I just know that it's going to be a good shoot, you know?

And it's refreshing. It is so refreshing to find people that still have the spark of creativity and they really do want to do collaboration for the art of it and for the self-expression and the process of creating art, the technical skills, the physical setup, the interaction with the model provoking experience collaborating on poses like that's the beauty of it and i think people shouldn't be afraid to.

Want to pursue that. That's really going to keep, I think, the origin of modeling and photographing alive by not having everything be about other needs, you know? Yeah, totally. And with all that being said, I think it's probably a good time to get into the actual categories. Okay, let's do it. All right. Okay, so full disclosure, I have like messaged a handful of my other modeling friends to help me compile this list.

And, you know, I edited it a little bit to like kind of be a cohesive list of like categories of types of photographers that work with models that, you know, kind of make sense. So how about we kind of just go down this list that we've made and talk about like our experiences with these types of photographers and like maybe what percentage of photographers that we've worked with over our careers that fit into these categories.

And if it, by the way, if you remember any kind of funny or interesting stories as we're going down this list, feel free to share. The attic of my dusty brain. See if I can pull some good stories up. Okay. All right. Cool. So this first like genre are the social media obsessed photographers. So people who their photography revolves around like Instagram. Facebook, like other social media platforms, TikTok, whatever.

Okay. Well, when I look at people in all these different categories, the first thing I like to ask myself is why? Why is this person doing it, right? In my experience, I feel like a lot of people have wanted to find some level of validation of themselves through their, you know, their photography and to display it. I think people see it as a reflection of their self-identity and of their capabilities.

And people obviously, you know, enjoy sharing photos so they have a community where they can discuss things, they can get critique. It's been a long time since I've seen a really well-written critique of a photo on an Instagram comment, you know, it's usually pretty not very thought out phrases that people say, but I understand the community building of it. Yeah, right. But I also see that some people can get lost in wanting to find clout for themselves through these social media profiles.

Yes. And that goes back to like, why like why do you need clout yeah so these things kind of have to be like analyzed like you know one by one and to just see like why is this person doing it honestly they could just be bored I get it too right people just want to like take pictures and this is like the thing that they do yes. So again, the intent of this is important. Yeah, like social media is definitely like really where we're all living socially right now.

It's kind of hard to be like pulling our heads out of this like social media machine. But I do feel like a lot of people's photography over the last 10 years has been really geared towards like Instagram specifically. Like I remember like eight years ago, I was working with this photographer and this is back when implied nudes were totally allowed and like nobody would get in trouble for them back then. Right.

And he wanted me to make poses that would fit nicely into a square so that it would look good on his Instagram feed. And so like his Instagram feed was all implied nudes in like, you know, kind of crunched up or like square type positions. So, yeah. And actually, kind of what you said there gave me a thought, you know, about the different changing terms of service on these platforms.

I think it's important to consider that as more people move to Instagram, their ability to express their creative selves is now hindered because of these terms of service that are applied because laws and political opinions.

And that is a whole separate topic to go into. And it's kind of like a neutering of self-expression. Just because somebody might want to take an essential photo of a woman, there's less and less space for it on the internet now to be shared.

And so people that might want to be like, look, I enjoy creating sensual art with a model might not now feel like they really have a place for them that's safe or they're not going to get banned and flagged, etc. Maybe you know where these other places are where people can go and share photos that are not necessarily the PG-13 that Instagram wants things to be. But I think it's really a shame that it just neuters people's ability to express their sexuality.

Right. I mean, there's TikTok, sorry, not TikTok, there's Twitter or X or whatever people are calling it now. You can definitely post nudes on there. But is there a good art community on Twitter for like artistic nudes? Like I haven't found it. And the presentation is different, right? You don't just go on a profile and see like a whole display of photos and you can make like a quick judgment on, you know, what the brand is, what they're trying to say, like what the message is.

You're just kind of lost in the posts. I see some people using like Facebook groups specifically, you know, to upload individual groups. But again, that's limitations on what you can post.

Back in the day, there was DeviantArt. I don't know how active that still is there is a website called not one model place what was it models not models model central maybe it was model central society model society there you go yeah that was like a thing for a while i don't even know if that's still alive dude yes model society is a hella still a thing and they actually buy they're my only sponsor on this podcast Well, there you go. There's one good thing left in the world. Oh, yeah.

Model Society is great. And, you know, for those listening, I do recommend if you're a photographer or a model or a fan of photography and modeling, there's a place for you on Model Society. How open are they with more explicit and erotic art? They will allow erotic themes, but I think that their open leg nudity policy is similar to model mayhems. Okay, so it's a little bit more than Instagram, but still not... Very like overtly sexualized. Okay.

Yeah. But also it's harder to get your profile approved as a model or photographer because they want to like, they want to only have photographers and models who are like focused on like the artistic side of like figurative, fine art and stuff.

They do have a variety of different types of like, you know, graphic art and fantasy art and like fine art and there's glamour and stuff too so okay makes sense but good to know that that's available yeah yeah so yeah anyway like we little bunny trail there but yeah social media definitely, affects like the way that some photographers that kind of fall into this category at work and that there's the the influencer photographer who focuses a lot on

getting behind the scenes Maybe like turning the photo shoot into a live stream and like trying to drive traffic to their Instagram, their website, you know, and sometimes this like, like getting the behind the scenes and creating the TikToks and everything actually like takes precedence over the content itself.

Definitely and again that goes back to like why like why are you doing it i understand that people like to see behind the scenes i think it makes the process more understandable for people i think people like to see the more candid interactions at a shoot because there's just the idea of photos being edited and manipulated is so common now that like people are just holding on to the last little morsel of oh well what really is real oh

well the process behind the photo is real and you know getting like a peek into that and getting to like see it, you know, and feel that you're really there. So I get why people do it. But then again, like, why are you trying to get people to see your Instagram because you are trying to sell a subscription service or are you just trying to show that you are legitimate and like you treat models fairly at the photo shoot? Just, you know, again, why? What's the point?

There definitely are a handful of photographers that come to mind that I know that do this that are, you know, that have become successful as a result, or at least it helps support their success and like maintain their presence. Because when you go live on Instagram, your little like, you know, circle at the top of the screen is like, it's like glowing so that everybody can see that you're live and you're the first thing that people can see at the top of the screen.

Yeah yeah and i mean that's really intelligent use of resources right like if you have an ability to document something that's happening and apply it to benefit yourself like good for you but it's just a matter of like what the photo shoot is what the purpose of the content is for is this like a personal account and somebody just wants more traction to it and so they're being like hey like i'm just being candid i'm doing a shoot i'm here hey friends come hang out with me i'm here or is

it for you know more of a story building for a sales angle right and as a model who has like worked with people like this some kind of like experiences that I've had just because I've had the same Instagram account for so long and I have a lot of followers on there I have worked with photographers who primarily wanted to shoot with me because of having a lot of followers on instagram sometimes with the assumption that if they shoot with me that means that they're going

to get more followers coming over from my account which in today's age with shadow banning like i'm sorry like, It might give you some exposure, but it's not going to be nearly as much as you hope it is, you know? Definitely not. And, oh God, this is probably why nobody else wanted to do this topic. So I'll just like flagellate myself publicly here. In my days, when I would go through Instagram, right, and I would see professional models, that told me two things.

So first of all, you know, a girl that I have some confidence in has done the booking process with this person and survived, which is important. And secondly, it lets me know that this person probably has the available budget when necessary. And so it helped me understand like, oh, no, this person has never shot with anyone that I know.

It's going to be like a hard hill climb to even get this person to understand that I'm doing this for a career and not as a personal hobby and I don't have time to explain to people why I need to get paid for my services like that is a whole separate thing yeah so in some way it could negatively affect you and the fact that girls will know that you are willing to pay and if girls know each other well and we know each other's rates, we can make assumptions.

But again, assumptions are wrong. So not really the best tactic. But I think now in people wanting to collaborate with well-known people. Sure, you could get some traction and somebody is going to follow you because they took photos of you and they're going to see you. But I think the big difference here is that you, you now as the model have the spotlight on you. I don't know exactly when this major shift happened, but with the advent of social media, you are now the thing that people follow.

And so you can like, you know, touch a project with your Midas touch and leave a little speckle of gold on it. And somebody might be interested in that project to see, you know, your face through this person's lens. But it's foolish to assume that just because you work with somebody, it's now going to throw a million and one different clients their way because your audience wants you.

So this person that is hiring you needs to understand that either they're hiring you for credibility, for a specific project that they want to know they're going to be able to achieve. Maybe they want to be able to say, hey, look, like you can use, you know, her as a reference and this is going to be great for you. And, you know, I worked with her. She's fantastic.

Yes. But it's a little delusional to think that they're just going to get flocked by followers because the power has shifted and there's a lot less people wanting to follow male accounts that present various women versus like the woman herself because of her personality and the fantasy and possibly the real ability to have like a connection with her, be it through something as simple as Oh my God, she liked the comment that I wrote on her photo.

She saw what I said. I am seen. I am valid. I exist. Yeah. But... You can't really get that from a male photographer selling photos. Right. The attention is on the models. It's true. And like by saying this on the podcast, I'm sure that there's photographers out there that were thinking about hiring me that are now like, I'm not going to work with her because she said that. So like, I'm sorry. It's just, it's true.

Like, you know, the way that the algorithm works, like it used to work well, where a photographer would like post a photo of me and then they would get a large wave. But because of shadow banning and my account specifically is super shadow banned, I have like a 0.1% engagement rate, which is really bad. If you're an influencer and you're representing brands and you're not showing as much skin as me on your page, you will get a lot more of an engagement rate.

And the engagement range is basically what percentage of your followers are actually engaging and, you know, following the people that you're suggesting they follow. And sadly, my page has bad engagement because I post a lot of skin. So Instagram hates me. If we make a collaborator post together, you will get some followers, maybe like five to 10. That's the reality. And I'm sorry. That's Like, it's not as cool as it looks to have a big account.

And it's, I mean, at this point, I would say people would probably want to work with you because you're an exceptional professional and you're going to deliver exactly what they need of you, right? Like, you're dependable, you're talented, you have a media presence. Like, it's a privilege to be able to work with you and to gain your time, right?

Like you've invested in yourself and you've invested in your brand and you've stayed consistent and you consistently deliver quality products so if people want that then they should hire you oh you're so sweet it's the truth right but if they want followers then they need to have a completely different.

Understanding of what they're doing on the internet and what their goal is because it's never a bad decision to pay you what you're worth for the work that you do but that in no way has the obligation to translate to some interest in their work with other people that's not your job yeah in summary with this social media category of photographers i would say that if you're a photographer out there and you use Instagram a lot that influences your photography,

think about what about when Instagram tanks? Like, are you going to quit photography? I think it's good to have like a multifaceted approach, like different ways to share your photography. Maybe print it out, maybe put it on your own website or just share it other places too. Because the amount of times that I've seen somebody's account get taken down and it makes them want to quit, it's saddening.

Yeah and I actually have two things to say on this topic first off I have a friend Paul he's worked with you before on a group shoot and he's done beautiful beautiful art with you hi Paul and for yeah yeah he'll listen to this one day he for instance has a Tuesday morning group that he organizes of like-minded photographers and well not like-minded like intended they're very different-minded, which is actually very important.

But they're all there to talk about their art, give each other criticism. Positive and negative, to support each other and to really get the benefit of the social aspect of photography, right? That it's not just about talking to the girl in the moment. It's about having someone share your art with. And it's small. It's niche. It's not easy, right? What's easy is to just put a photo on Instagram and hope that you're going to like something is going to happen in your life because of it.

But to like seek out these groups where you have community and you have consistency and like you have intellectual capacity to discuss what you're doing, even if it's different. You know, he has one guy that incorporates AI into his art, one guy that does black and white, one guy that does landscapes. It doesn't matter. It's about the fact that they are photographers talking about the art of it. Right.

And that should be more encouraged and more people should seek out spaces like that, you know, finding groups for themselves. Yeah. And then talking about like loss of identity through your social media profile. I mean, you said this about what happens to a photographer. What happens to us as creators? I somehow still have not lost a account to terms of service. That's also because I'm in like a perpetual state of professional hibernation email.

But, yeah, like people have to ask themselves what's going to happen when everything they've worked for gets deleted. And no one cares. Meta doesn't care. Right? Is it going to shake your identity of self? Is that going to make you lose your whole social circle? Is that going to make you feel demotivated to even pursue your passion? And then you have to ask yourself, like, why is a social media platform the reason that you have a hobby?

Your hobby should be for you. your hobby should be for what you want to achieve out of it right like as a photographer you get to go to beautiful locations you get to you know create this photo and you create art like it's just sad when people forget about all the other benefits to it outside of just oh well I got 12 likes and that's all that matters like yeah very easy way to lose everything and fall into depression and despair.

And I would say in some ways it's almost, I wouldn't say it's unavoidable, but it's highly, highly risky in the digital environment we're in now. Yeah, I fully agree with all of that. I think that that's, you know, words to soak on.

But I do think it's time to move on to our next category of different types of photographers. How about it? Okay. This is near the way. Otherwise, I'll keep talking for us. So this next category is my personal favorite as of late, the outdoor and location-based photographers. Photographers that primarily like to shoot outside and the shoots are always some kind of an adventure. For me, lately, it's crawling on rocks and like, you know, going on hiking trails.

Yeah, I would say these are some of my favorite photographers to work with. Just because for me, modeling has been more than just photos. It's been about the experience. I've been in some of the most breathtaking locations through this job, and I cherish those experiences so, so much. I admire people's desire to work hard for what they create and to invest in forethought of the project.

So yeah i think these people are awesome and i think there's also a very important benefit to incorporating nature and physical outings into this hobby because like kind of going back you know to our previous conversation monetizing photography is becoming more and more difficult realistically but that's not to say the benefits of photography are going away like if you can have this hobby because it motivates you to go in nature to go on a hike to find a beautiful location to return to it like

there is a huge benefit to that to staying active to staying social like socially present with people to be creative to physically test yourself right like.

There's a lot of benefit to going on a hike with some heavy ass gear in tow right like you're gonna live a longer better life if you can achieve that so i would say like please like don't keep shooting in your home please like push yourself go out into the world and find something that excites you and, bring a model with you and collaborate like in reality where life happens and not just in front of a green screen it's just there's so much

more fulfillment from that i think and also in addition to like just being outside and that being enjoyable in itself i also like i mean i usually like this like almost everybody that i work with is really cool and nice and a good, conversationalist it's kind of fun to do the car ride on the way to the shoe location right because then you kind of get the awkward hey how are you what you're doing out of the way while you're chatting in the car?

Depends, right? Is there a story behind that? Depends. There's literally about a hundred stories. I'm going to try to like summarize it into conversation. So first and foremost, you are a high value professional, correct? Why should anyone expect you to sit in a bumpy car ride for free for an undetermined amount of time? Right. That is absurd. So first and foremost, I think there needs to be a clear understanding that the time a model gives you for the car ride needs to be compensated.

Is it fair to negotiate a different rate than what you're going to be paying her for the different work that she's doing? Yes, she's doing different work. She's sitting in the seat, not doing what she might want to be doing elsewhere, providing a company and discussing the project at hand. That's work. That is emotional work. that is grain work, right, into creative collaboration. There's no guarantee that you aren't going to take a left turn and waste an extra 20 minutes.

There's no guarantee you're not going to pop a tire and the rest of the day is going to get shot for you. There's no guarantee the car has snacks or water. Then you're not going to be miserable on a whole ride there back, right? You guys better have snacks, by the way. Yes, always. Oh, my God. Snacks everywhere. I have a backpack I specifically got because it has a snack compartment, girl.

I always have snacks wherever i go because i've been hungry too many times yeah but that's important to understand and i think some people might find offense to having to pay for that because they're like well you're not really working blah blah blah you are but in a different capacity and that needs to be explained that like you're not just sitting around enjoying yourself you are present you are invested you are focused and you're not doing something else so it's

not about an ego it's not about well she's just cheating me out of money i do find it to be inappropriate from the model side to charge you know your work rates for the car ride somebody doesn't fine but i think there needs to be a little give from both angles of willing to.

Negotiate a rate that is more appropriate for that type of work and for the photographer to understand that it's still work even though you're behind the wheel right also another way to look at it is especially if this model is on tour like say i went to los angeles and i'm there for four days i have four days to book hourly shoots if somebody wants to shoot with me for two hours but it's a three-hour drive out of LA to like some nature location that's really cool I love nature

I would love to do that shoot but if the six hours you know three hours there and three hours back is uncompensated time like that's time that I could be booking with other photographers who are closer to town so offering some kind of like not like you said not a full rate not your full like 150 or whatever it is per hour like maybe just 50 bucks an hour for the car ride that that would you know at least compensate you for like the lack of ability to book other work during that you

know six hours that you're in the car exactly and it's it's not about you know a specific number it's just about the willingness to understand both positions and negotiate right people just need to understand them. And I guess to kind of say the other part too, right? While you're in this car ride together, now really the quality of the model that you have with you is going to shine through.

They're who are going to sit there and even if you have compensated them for this transportation, they're just going to be on their phone, on their Instagram, answering their DMs. That is just who they are and you have to understand that. And sure, you can try to talk to them, but they are not customer service oriented.

There's going to be that care about what you want to do and they're going to ask you probably leading questions you know well where are we going and what's the environment like and what poses do you have in mind what equipment do you have you know and I'm sure somebody like yourself who has extensive knowledge of the technical element of photography like this is a great opportunity to talk about that and then you know obviously there's the in-between of just having

an opportunity to have a more personal conversation and get to know each other before you know you get to the work part of it right right people want to some people don't and again like it might not seem like oh well is she really working if she's just telling me about her you know weekend.

Yes because otherwise i could be at home sleeping i can smell in my own farts fake farts sorry girl fetish shake fetish the real ones are too difficult to make happen all the time yeah So in addition to, like, the nature shooters, there's also the subgenre of the urbex photographers who like the abandoned buildings. And honestly, like, I've been doing this podcast for a while now. Some of the craziest stories have come from abandoned building shoots.

Yeah, I've done a couple, you know, myself, of course. It's, I feel like, a certain rite of passage in this community. So yay and a nay right the yay is i get it i get the appeal it's beautiful and it's abandoned and it has this like emotional undertone of you know dilapidation and distress and power and whatever the fuck you can extrapolate from a burned down you know crack house doesn't matter but i get that it's variety and people like it cool what is essential to consider is safety and,

you know, what are you going to be walking on? Are there going to be needles from the people that squat in this space when you're not out here taking pretty photos?

Right. If you ask a model to lean on something like, does she have her tetanus shot or is she about to have a bad problem on her hands from, you know, getting in contact with something that is going to possibly poke her right and get into her bloodstream yeah all you know all these things or like oh my gosh let's go up these stairs that are barely holding on so you can swing from the rafters on the second story of this you know whatever mechanic shop yeah would you like

to test these stairs out first kind sir before i go like adventuring and this kind of takes me to the nay of. I have experienced an element of carelessness from photographers in them asking me to go somewhere in one of these less than safe spaces. And the way I've seen it justified is, oh, but you're so young and you're so nimble. I'm still a person. I still weigh something. I still can dislodge material and fall and slip and hurt myself, right?

So that is just very narrow-minded and inconsiderate to kind of say, well, you know, you can twirl around and you'll be fine. Yeah. I would even want to tell somebody, like, if you are a parent, right, or you have someone in your family that is close to you that you really love, would you ask that person to do what you're about to ask this model to do?

That this is reminding me of a story i was at a shoot it was a workshop actually at an abandoned building in gary indiana and the location was stunning it was an abandoned church the ceiling was busted out there's like you know.

Cathedral like ceilings and like vines on the wall like i i love the aesthetic okay but you're right the care needs to be there this photographer at the workshop wanted me to be posing amongst the broken glass and then putting my body through the broken windows and i still broken glass snow angels my favorite yeah i stepped on broken glass and i was bleeding you know it wasn't just a little cut with like a drop or two i was i was bleeding and the workshop organizer did not have a

first aid kit but fortunately one of the elderly photographers did but it was like from the 70s he had a little glass tube of iodine that he put on my cut with a band-aid and that worked oh my god I mean, yeah, yeah, that happens. I would say for me, one of the more like, didn't expect this to hurt when I'm done with this photo shoot thoughts was actually rolling around on train tracks.

I never thought that the contact of the wheels to the rail line produces itsy bitsy teeny weedy little bits of metal shavings. And if you get nice and naked and you start rolling yourself around on it and touching it, that stuff gets under your skin like the tiniest little. Oh my God, I can't remember the word for it. Little thing, like not a hangnail, what am I thinking of? Splinter. Like a tiny little splinter.

And I just remember sitting in my car after the shoot and I was like, why is my back and butt so itchy? And then I got home and whoever I was with at the time during my travel took a look at me and was like, you have like these little tiny...

Like strands it almost looked like you know after you like shave a beard with a trimmer and you get like the little nubbins of beard like a rash just like but no like like you know like the hair shavings right like off of a beard like they're just small little bit right I had like that in my butt on my back and you know it was just itchy and so yeah like I had to like scrub it out and remove it but never thought that that would be a side effect of hosing on some rail lines but you know there you

go wow so in summary for these outdoor and location-based archetypes of photographers who shoot with models like you know there's definitely a lot of precautions and like pre-communication as far as like the time for the drive and what's expected and the the caution involved in like what's touching your skin and like you know the environment that you're in and the dangers that are there like like we said at the beginning of this topic these are our favorite types of

shoots is the outdoor adventure ones but you gotta you know respect that we're human and like make sure that we're safe yeah risk mitigation and i think also i have personally not been in this issue i have heard about this happening to others i don't remember the detail of the situation, but I remember the general. Problem. And being that, you know, people would ask a model to do too much. And there's two issues that come of it, right? There's a physical injury, or there's a legal problem.

Somebody needs to ask themselves are they prepared to handle both a physical injury or a legal problem are you the type of person that's just going to say oops and not have a conscience and have this girl pay her own medical bills or are you going to step up and offer her some assistance and in america that shit ain't cheap also for the more legal stuff right what state are you in Are you in a national park? Are you in private property? What happens if somebody sees you and issues a citation?

I want to pause a little bit and just provide another disclaimer that, yeah, safety is important. Usually, when I'm just working one-on-one with a photographer, we're working on the assumption that we're just going to be good humans and handle whatever, if anything happens, empathetic human beings. I've never been seriously injured. You know, the little cut, the abandoned building that could have turned into something bad, but it didn't.

But, you know, like I personally am not super worried about just like having a one on one shoot be something that requires legal documentation unless there is like some kind of a stunt or act. You know, like swimming in the Everglades where there's going to be crocodiles, like, come on, you know, or like jumping off a cliff and trying to grab a tree branch. Like that's that is dangerous, super dangerous.

If you're going to be running events, you know, running, running like a multi-person event, I do think it's important to have an insurance policy for the event for sure. And just express to everybody that there could be danger involved and there might be some kind of a physical ability requirement as far as functioning in the heat, carrying heavy equipment, and things like that. So everything in this episode is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I think that it's really, really, really important to keep safety in mind, especially when you're asking somebody to do something particularly dangerous and understanding that if they're not comfortable with the dangerous act. Don't make them do it. So, a good theme for this entire episode is consent. Consent, understanding, and communication. So, if you have those things at the forefront, you're good, you know.

If you want to do something dangerous, you know, make the precautions, the paperwork, the insurance, whatever, you know. Like, we're not saying that everybody needs to be, like, lawyered up for every shoot. We're not saying that, you know, just situationally, you know, common sense. Do they have the capacity to have your safety and your well-being in mind? Because if they seem completely self-absorbed, say no, go home, book another shoot.

But if this person is considerate, they've made not just a gesture verbally towards being caring of you, but also has the paperwork to support it. Because paperwork means everything when it gets to court and legal issues and medical issues, right? Ask yourself, as a model, do you have insurance? If you don't have insurance and you're doing all this risky stuff, you can end up with crippling debt and no one's going to save you.

And nobody's going to be legally bound to save you. Is that a risk you want to take. It's true. These are definitely like the sobering realities of adventure shoes, for sure. Yay. I love climbing on rocks and trees. It's the best. I mean, it's the best because there's a lot of risk to it. It's the best because it's, you know, exciting and varied and in nature and just beautiful and healthy for you.

But like with a high reward comes a high risk and you have to have a brain on your shoulders from both ends photographer and model true that and then you know something that we talked about in the episode that we recorded a couple years ago it was like a year and a half ago or something your takeaway like your rising phoenix moment was learning how to set boundaries through your modeling and that definitely comes into play in these nature locations or these

urbex abandoned locations like are you uncomfortable comfortable with what the photographer's asking you to do. You've got to stick up to yourself and present your boundaries.

Yeah, yeah. Or if they want to take you somewhere absolutely insane, write out a document with them explaining what the expectations are, where you're going to go, the understanding that there's going to be risk, and have the photographer say, you know, I am responsible or my company or whatever the hell this person's, you know, is shooting under if it's a business or himself, I am responsible for your safety and any medical care that might come of it and take it to a notary before the shoot.

I'm not saying like for every single one, right? That's a little unrealistic. But if something this person wants to do is particularly dangerous and they're willing to discuss it beforehand, like cover your ass. Because I know of a girl that fell off a tree, broke her arm, and nobody was there to help her. And she ended up, you know, losing work for a long time and having pains and, you know, just the suffering that came of it.

Little did she know there's a thing called cast fetish that could have probably paid her a little bit but again side tangent and really just comedic relief to a serious situation you know yeah all right I think we definitely covered that one let's let's move on to the next category of photographers. And this one this is one that like can be really fun and engaging or it can be like kind of hectic or stressful as the model. There's a wide range.

There's three different subcategories of this that I've collected as suggestions from my other model friends who are giving me ideas on these different types of photographers. But another disclaimer, so here is another category of photographers that I would like to rename the category as techie photographers, like photographers who are really, really, really into their gear.

A lot of the times these shoots are very organized because the mind of the photographer also often works like the mind of an engineer where they're trying to... Fit things into each other perfectly. So oftentimes they're very structured, but sometimes when this photographer has not yet honed in on their like craft and like knows how much time each like creative task or, or whatever might take, it could become like sort of a wild card experience.

So with the techies, it's usually a shoot that is, you know, that they have a vision, that they have a technique perhaps they're experimenting with something new but there's almost always like an allotted amount of time for this but there's with with everything each photographer that is working with experimentation new lighting skills there's always going to be like something that comes up the first time that they ever try this new technique so so there needs to be on the model side,

a little bit of grace, a little bit of patience. And I will say that I have noticed that when photographers are setting up for a shoot like this, especially if it's an experimental shoot, they've got new gear or they've got new techniques that they want to try.

That having a model who is patient and that she's not going to be tapping her foot or like trying to like grab her phone and take selfies like somebody who could just sit in the moment while the photographer is going through their creative process and you know not interrupt them unless they like need something from you like feedback ideas or you know whatever like you know if you need just play some background music let them go through

their process and if they need to like crunch numbers in their head with whatever like new technology they got going on, just like let them do it, you know? So. Some of the like verbiage in these various subcategories of techie photographer, we're kind of describing our gripes with people who have really high expectations for a short time frame of shoot, but I don't want that flavor or that taste to be left in one's mouth that you shouldn't experiment because we want you to experiment.

We want to try new things. For me, when somebody's trying something new and trying a new technique or whatever, like even if it takes more time than the photographer thought, I think that just trying something new and being creative, I mean, that's what being creative is, is trying something new, right? Right. That's like what I am here for. Like if you have something going on where you're like, yeah, I want to try something new.

I'm like, yeah, let's do it. Even if it doesn't work out, like that's how you hone a craft. You know, that's how you get good is by trying new things. So I love when people have like a techie mind and they've got new gear and they're playing with things because it's always more fun than just doing the tried and true three-point lighting, like flat lighting, basic stuff. So yeah, just keep that in mind. I love experimentation. I love creativity. But I also want there to be a somewhat

realistic expectation for the timeframe of the shoot. All right. Sorry about all the disclaimers. The reason I'm doing all these disclaimers is because I don't want photographers listening to this to think that everything that they're doing is wrong. You know what I mean? And when I'm at shoots in real life, you know, I go to shoots, photographers say that they listen to my podcast and they heard something and it makes them not want to do something.

And I'm like, oh, that wasn't the intention of that conversation. Like me and my co-host are usually just kind of like chewing the fat and like talking about like how things went here and there. We're not saying don't do this, don't do that. These are just our like... Emotional, mental barfing out amongst each other that you get to listen to. So yeah, keep that in mind. We love y'all. I love experimentation. I love creativity.

Throw it at me. Yeah. So, all right. Well, on with this category of techie photographers. One of them is the over-prepared photographers. They might bring five cameras, 12 lenses, take an hour to set up. They've got a quantity versus quality mentality. You know, they're going to try everything. They've got all this equipment. And, you know, it can be time consuming. And it does feel like there's, like, you know, a really strong emphasis on, like, just, like, making epic content.

But sometimes I feel like less is more, though.

Like you know you don't need 12 lenses definitely and so first and foremost this goes back to the situation of sitting in a car with a person on location or going to location right like this type of time needs to be compensated there's nothing preventing someone from setting up their gear beforehand especially they know where they're going to be going and what they're going to be And I think, again, models should know to speak up if they get on set and they're on time

and somebody is fumbling around. And again, I think it's also important to consider the question of why. Why is this person doing this, right? Like. Are they technically not very well skilled? And so they're just having like an anxiety attack, right? They're like, oh my God, I have the vision in my head. I haven't practiced enough. I don't know my gear that well. Let me just like go through all of it and just freak out and panic a little bit.

One of those cases is when you have a talented, well, knowledgeable model like yourself, Ask for some help. Ask for some advice. Be like, hey, I brought these lenses and I'm just not quite sure what is going to work best for this type of environment. Christy, would you have an opinion? Save yourself the time. Use the talent that you are paying for and your expertise to help guide the process along, right? Like there's no shame in that. No shame.

And I'm glad that you said that because a lot of us full-time professionals that have been doing this for 5, 10, 15 plus years or whatever, like we have you know sometimes photography experience ourselves and we can provide like feedback or direction if you want it but personally I am not going to offer this unless you ask if you're hiring me as a model I am not going to give suggestions unless I am asked for suggestions because I don't want to step on anybody's creative

toes or like throw them off or like potentially offend them, you know? Exactly, exactly. And this is just kind of goes back to reading the room, right? If the person looks like they know what they're doing, they're just taking forever. As long as you're on the clock and this is their process, whatever. Yeah. But if the person is like running around in circles and they're like, okay, they're clearly freaking out. They don't know what to do. They don't have the confidence to ask me.

Like in my personal approach, this is the moment where I would step up and be like, hey, like, you seem to be a little stressed and a little overwhelmed. Like, would you like to maybe narrow down some options or just kind of, can I give you a little direction? I know a lot less technical knowledge about photography than you do. I can remind you to take a lens cap off, you know, and maybe like adjust your focus.

But I think people need to remember that like when they work with people like yourself, that skill set is accessible. And yeah, like, I think you're right to not impose onto someone's creative process, but it would be wise of the clients to know that there are resources available from you that they would benefit from. And it's not amount of ego. It's not about them being not good enough. Like, ask for some help. Yeah. And get what you want out of it.

And when it comes to the quantity versus quality mentality, like the kind of shoots where at the end of the shoot, the photographer says, wow, we shot 1200 photos in 90 minutes. Like, that's amazing. That's more than I've ever shot. I'm like. Are they photos that are accomplishing the vision that you had? Like, because the number, like, I can't, I can't come up with any reason why the number of photos that you shot is like the goal of the shoot, you know?

So I think this is like a holdover from the transition from film to digital.

I think a lot of the people that we've worked with, you know, they started getting into photography on film and they're like oh shit like every shot is money every shot is less opportunities to take a different shot I have to like work through this or I can just buy 10,000 things of film and money doesn't matter whatever and I think a lot of photographers probably went through that transition in their you know in their lifetime going into digital cameras, and I think for many people there's

still a bit of like an excitement of like oh my god like I got a lot. I just like, I got so many. I can't believe it. I love digital cameras. It just gives me this feeling of satiation by quantity. And it's so nice now to not be held back with, you know, a limited amount of photos on film. Now I can just do as much of it as I want. Hurrah, hurrah, hurrah. I think that's where that comes from. And that's why people are just like, oh my gosh, we got so many.

And I think some people see a reflection of that number in the chemistry between themselves and the model. You know, if you have a model that's just like standing, like asleep standing and, you know, barely has a pulse. And hey, you're out there in the dressing room the whole time. Yeah. Or in, you know, the dressing room her whole time, texting or whatever, right? You're like, I'm not going to have as many opportunities to take photos of her.

So I think people sometimes see that as like a validation of like, oh yeah, like we had really good chemistry and like the modeling itself went really well. Like I had a lot of opportunities to take with this person. Thank you. Yeah. But again, if that gives you fulfillment and joy, fantastic. Like maybe somebody wants to shoot a lot of photos and then go back and really try to find, you know, a candid shot among many. Like I understand that approach. I understand people who, you know,

want to do the hair toss 20 times and then pick out just the perfect shot. It's hard to do it right.

I understand it takes a lot of effort but to think that quantity is going to mean that now somebody wants to see your 1200 photos yeah where are they going yeah yeah and so also within this like genre of like photographers that are aiming for like being really professional having really good gear there's the student who like recently attended a workshop wants to hire an experienced model and try all the 15 new ideas that they just learned from a workshop which is definitely a

very ambitious way to set up a shoot but maybe not like the best approach within the two-hour time frame yeah i mean i've had these shoots happen before for myself what i see this happen And it's specifically like a student type, right? Not someone who is just overwhelmed by their own creativity. Like, damn it, like, I wish I could help. I'm gonna be able to like help you create your whole entire senior portfolio in one two-hour session.

Like this is, you've gotten yourself in pretty deep, you know, and your ambitions. And, you know, if I see someone kind of, wanting to go through a lot because they have been saving their money, you know, to hire me. And I understand that working with a professional model is a luxury and they have, you know, allocated funds to it. And, you know, maybe they don't make a lot of income and this really is a sizable portion of their budget.

Like, I respect that immensely, but it just makes me feel really sad when I see someone just try to do 10,000 things at once and fail at all of them instead of just try to do a few things well. And I'm talking to my own self right now and my own ADHD when I say this, because I am known to do this in my personal life for many things. But it's just, it's not, it's not an effective approach. Yes.

Sorry, I was just going to say that there was the suggestion along with this from my one of my friends that suggested this category that perhaps if you do have a lot of different techniques that you want to practice with model photography maybe before you get a professional model into the studio like you're paying for the studio you're paying the model's hourly rate maybe in advance of doing that just try it out on a mannequin or like your cat yeah exactly like I

think I think people get in this headspace where they hire a model wanting motivation and inspiration and they're kind of trying to like outsource that to someone by paying them but if you're a student you can't outsource it like that's on you that's what you're learning. So yeah, like you have to come into this either knowing like, okay, I have practiced this before and this specific setting, my settings are going to be this and my lens is going to be this.

And I'm going to go do, do, do, do, do, set this up. Great. Now we can shoot for 10 minutes here. Now, you know, phase two, we're going to go to this set. If you come at this with a strategy, it is possible. I have seen it done. But when you kind of show up and you're like, I'm a student, I'm having some, you know, creative block. I don't really know. I need to cover these 10 topics.

I'm on a budget. Please help me. It just reminds me of my chemistry tutor trying to prepare me for college entrance exams when I'm just like, I can't remember the periodic table help. She's like, girl, girl. You are in real deep now, you know, just don't be that person. Like learn your periodic table of elements before you pay top dollar for a tutor.

Yeah yeah yeah i mean getting some practice in with your gear before like you're working out a lot of money to like put it into action is definitely recommended but yeah so that's kind of like the the gear oriented like photographers aiming to like stretch their like photography like i would definitely say when somebody's working with me in general like if people that are in these categories of, you know, the so-called over-the-top professionals or the over-prepared or the student or whatever,

I still really, really respect and appreciate that their motivations are for creating interesting images, at the very least. If they're over-prepared or if they have too many ideas and they can't fit it all into the time frame, okay, whatever. It might be a stressful shoot because of the, like, short time frame with the amount of ideas that you have. But overall, I think it's great that like you're motivated or that you're inspired or you want to try.

Like in the end, like I still find it as a positive thing. Of course, of course. I mean, that's like the spark that keeps the art of it alive. Yeah.

Now, on the flip side of that, like outside of the photographers who have like technical aspirations, creative ideas, like bucket list, like concepts or lighting setups, there are also moving into the next category, photographers who have suspicious motivations. And there is kind of a menagerie in this category of different subcategories of suspicious motivation photographers. Number one, the my wife doesn't know photographer.

Can I just do a quick little preface on this just for myself right now? In my experience as a model, I enjoyed the art of it, but I became personally fascinated by this category of men. I found it very interesting to understand their needs and their desires and how these people expressed that and how they pursued what they wanted to attain. I personally made it my career, my special interest to put myself in situations professionally where I can be a service provider to various intimate needs.

I'm personally very passionate about advocating for the sex worker industry and de-stigmatizing it. And I have transitioned more from an artistic model to a sex worker with a model background. So this topic is really special for me because I understand it. But I also understand that maybe my opinions are different from a different community of models that's more art-minded.

Models that have different goals in their careers and different intentions with how they want to interact with their clients and how invested they want to become in them and how accessible they're willing to be to them. So I just want to let that be clear that like I have chosen to explore this area further because it is interesting to me. And the overall experience. Understanding that I got out of the modeling was that, yes, there are all the topics that we just covered now, they exist.

But there's a huge scope of men who don't know what outlet to take to have female companionship, where elements of sexuality can be present. And all of these things are a From a tiny bit of just flirting to full-on, you know, full-service sex work. And I believe these problems are not only caused by lack of communication, lack of transparency.

Lack of understanding each other and expectations and nefarious, you know, intent and all the secrecy behind it, but also through legal availabilities for people to get what they want and how they're going to be. Just aren't spaces accessible in many areas where people can find services that take care of their needs. And I think a lot of people in searching for that default to modeling because it's fundamentally a way to get into proximity of a beautiful woman and see where it goes from there.

And the fact that people are trying to find their needs to be met by reaching out to models, I understand why do they come to these conclusions and I understand why they search for, you know, collaboration out of this niche. But it's not fair to models that don't want to be treated like sex workers. They don't deserve this. It's like going to a massage and asking for a happy ending. From a woman that just wants to give you a Swedish massage.

Like, it's not wrong to want a release, but it's wrong to ask the wrong people. But the greater issue is that there's not always a space available where you can go to the right people and make a dignified request and have it be met with safety and dignity for both parties. Right.

Thanks for your transparency. Your transparency and all that is really important, especially for people listening, because I think that de-stigmatizing all of this is important while also upholding the standard that people who are advertising themselves in certain ways may also provide additional services that they can't technically get away with publicly posting about. However, if a model that you're going to work with is going to offer those services, they will tell you.

They will let you know. You do not have to pressure somebody into something that they haven't advertised to you privately. And I'm a firm believer in the fact of, you know, there's no wrong questions. I understand when people want to book a model that they're not sure of what she offers and ask her questions about her availability. Polite questions where the response of no can be accepted and, you know, acted upon is most important.

But photographers need to understand that as soon as you ask the question my intent my my assumption of what your intent is will change so if you book me for an art nude shoot and then at the very end you say do you do blowjobs i mean like you know i can answer however i want to answer, but you have to realize that now i'm thinking that you were thinking about a blowjob for the last two hours. And now I'm thinking what you're going to want to book me for next time.

Right. Oh, my God. That literally happened to me recently. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of like taints the potential for a future if like the suggestion that the photographer requests is not something that you're comfortable with. Exactly. And what I see is a sad consequence of this is that this person can be very good as a professional collaborator on set. Then they might ask a question about wanting more. The model feels uncomfortable and doesn't want to offer that.

But also now the model is going to want to protect her community and maybe let other models know that this person asks these types of questions. And this is where the big injustice is, is that I understand the model's desire to protect their community, but I'm frustrated that men who ask questions and are willing to not push people and pursue them then get stigmatized as predators or less than professionals and unsafe people to work with.

Right i don't think that that's right i think that if somebody asks for something in email in advance you know that's the right way to go about things but if they put you on the spot you know at the shoot without advancing manipulators yeah yeah then they're just trying to manipulate you and now they're like psychological you know they're just playing mind games with you and they're trying to leverage their power and your you know fear of retaliation And I mean,

those are sociopaths and that's a whole separate topic, too. So anyways, now that I've done my little preface and we probably have about two minutes left, let's fire this off. Right. We kind of bunny trail the way from the actual like wife part of the my wife doesn't know, you know, going into the, you know, exposing that there are sex workers within the modeling community. I think it's important to address that.

And again, thank you for your transparency in that. But the keeping it a secret from your wife that you're doing nude photography, that I understand why photographers end up in that situation. And I do I do find it. A bit sad. And honestly, if you are a photographer that like hires a model and you're at the shoot and you are keeping it a secret from your wife, don't tell the model that. Like, how is that going to contribute to the shoot? Like, come on.

Yeah, because that is a fundamental crack in my safety with you, right? Like, if you're not a safe space for your partner and you lie to her, what can I assume you're going to lie to me about. And I distinctly remember this moment at a photo shoot. It's happened multiple times, but I remember this like one time. I'm in the middle of a pose, you know, nice and vulnerable and everything. And then the photographer gets a call and it's his wife.

And I just remember the way he looked at me and said, and then he proceeded to talk to her. Oh yeah, baby, I'm stuck at the office, whatever. While I'm like spread eagle in front of them. And I felt so dirty and not even about like feeling that what I'm doing is wrong. I did what I was told to do based on my communication and expectation, right? Like I was hired. I showed up. I'm delivering the product. Like it's not on me, but to feel implicated in hurting someone.

And now I understand that this environment is non-consensual and that there's a victim on the other end of this that is being hurt to hurt and lied to and.

Wasting her time in a marriage that is built on lies and deceit shit that is cut steep yeah it has tainted my like overall opinion of marriage over the course of time that i have been modeling just the amount of photographers that i've worked with who have told me while we're shooting that they're keeping their photography a secret and they're like smuggling their gear with all this lighting and all this stuff into a hotel room and I'm like how are you keeping

all this a secret? Like do you have a secret storage unit? Yeah and I think a lot of this just comes back to the overall issue that. Men's needs, especially sexual needs, are something to be ashamed of, right? It's a biological process that women tend to lose interest in intimacy as they get older and their body changes, and men don't go through those type of hormonal and physical changes, And they naturally have more interest in intimacy than women do as a whole.

I realize this is so broad. I realize there's exceptions, but I'm just trying to go for the big picture here, right? And I think it is so fucking sad, honestly, that we live in a society that the desire to.

Fulfill your needs is so shamed and that these men have to spin these webs of lies around their wives about what they're doing and why because they're just trying to have someone make them feel valid as a man who still has needs and fantasies and potentially is having none of that accessible to him in his marriage. There's a lot of conversations that need to be had about you know, what does it mean to support a partner? What does it mean to be a good partner?

You know, monogamy, non-monogamy, rules in a relationship, like this goes on and on and on. But I think for the traditional photographer who, you know, isn't in his 20s, but is maybe somebody who's a little older and was raised on different values that probably got into a marriage with somebody who had different expectations and was in a different time in history where different social norms were acceptable.

I understand how these men and their needs get forgotten, and it pains me when they're not only forgotten, but they're shamed for being a man. It is sad. I would say that I can't offer a nasty approach to fix all of this. What I would suggest is marriage counseling. I don't know if that's an option for everybody in this situation or divorce.

You know, I don't think that, like, it is sad, it is stigmatized, you know, but like, I think communication, like, and living your true self and like being authentic about who you are and what you're doing and why you're doing it, I think that truly leads to happiness. And having, I mean, difficult conversations, they're just going to be difficult. There's no way around it. If you have a need that's not met and you have a problem, then it's going to be difficult to solve it.

And men need to be brave. They need to talk to their partners and honestly, not assume that they're always going to be misunderstood. I've encouraged certain people to be more open to their partners about their needs. Sometimes it doesn't work. That's just part of it. But sometimes the other person is feeling just as forgotten, just as lonely, or maybe also is wanting to wander and pursue something different.

And I think those are important times to really ask yourself, you know, what is the union between two people about? What is its goal? What is its purpose? What are the commitments to each other? And how can that be adapted as people change and grow and their needs and the world around them changes with time? You know, you're not the same person you married when you were, you know, 30 years ago. Your body is different. Your mind's different. Your environment's different. The world is different.

And you just have to keep adapting and be flexible and be open-minded. I think it's important for people to have the freedom to pursue what they need and not be trapped with denial. I agree. Yeah, I agree. Moving on. I do want to get through this list of suspicious motivation photographers. Now, I guess suspicious that we're in itself. Now that I think about it, it does have kind of like guy with camera, right?

Kind of a derogatory connotation alternative motivations so let's get through the list there's the private client a photographer who has like unique types of like fetishes that claims that there's some private client that like wants to order this content from him but then throughout the course of the shoot it becomes apparent that it's actually him that wants the content.

And this has happened to me a couple of times too, where a photographer isn't like being transparent about like what they want and what they're getting out of it. And they're trying to kind of hide it under the guise that somebody else is buying it from them. I've been in these situations too. They're all different. They're all weird. The conclusion I've come to is that I don't really care what you do with these photos. That's on you.

If I feel respected and treated well during the shoot and you are interacting with me the way I demand to be interacted with and respected and you're not crossing boundaries, as long as I feel safe, whatever. I know that some people say, you know, oh, well, don't worry. These photos will be private. This is just for me. Bullshit. I don't trust anyone for anything. If I take a photo, it exists.

I have to live with myself knowing that that photo can be on the internet tomorrow, and there's no recourse about it. Sure, I can sign some paperwork, blah, blah, blah. This is private. Whatever. Privacy does not exist anymore in this day and age. So. If I'm being compensated fairly for what I am doing and the type of labor I am doing, the end result to me is less important because of the fluidity of content utilization.

Obviously, if somebody suddenly wants me to interact with them instead of hiring another talent, that's the big difference.

Now, are you wanting me to pose with you, shoot with you, interact with you, and you are getting the experience under the guise of it being content or are you hiring two professionals male female female male whatever the hell for the end product so I don't really care who's sponsoring it I don't really care where the money goes I care about how I care where the money goes preferably in my wallet to me it's all about like the experience

on set and staying in control of the power dynamic of who is, providing the service, what the service is, what is the purpose of it, and who's involved in the experience, and who's, very importantly, who is getting pleasure. Because if the photographer is getting pleasure versus utility, this is a session, this is a different experience, this is a whole different can of worms.

If the photographer is getting a product, I don't care who's paying me, just pay me my money and don't murder me, please. True that. And then there's also photographers who are obsessed with getting magazine credits or maybe even starting their own magazine with the promise that you're going to get published if you shoot with them.

Oh, God, it hurts. It physically hurts. I mean, it literally is just like the girl next door wanting to have an OnlyFans and then like buying a house in California was her OnlyFans money a month in. I understand where these people are coming from. I understand that probably in their lifetime, they've gone from film to digital. They probably watched print media, you know, in hand and experienced it. And that was their standard of success.

And being published in physical media was a validating outlet for their photography in a way to be distributed and seen and recognized. I get where it's all coming from. But the world is different. The world is changing. I don't know very many people who care about magazines anymore. True that. As an art piece, as to say, here, I've printed these photos. I've immortalized them from, you know, the internet melting and losing all of its content. I don't know, whatever, right?

I've immortalized it. And it's physical, it's tangible. You know, that is an art piece. People who are making, you know, print art into books... They're creating long-lasting time, you know, enduring art that isn't going to depend on a Wi-Fi signal to be appreciated. Beautiful, fantastic. I appreciate it. Keep doing it. It's going to be nice to look at something in the dark ages under candlelight, you know, when the world goes to hell. Yeah.

I will say, like, reflecting on what you just said about having it immortalized in print form or in a book, I do value that. And I think that it is amazing to have a little shelf somewhere that's dedicated to having magazines that have photos of you or photos that you shot printed out. I think the only time that this comes into a toxic level is when the photographer is using a magazine submission or publication kind of like as a dangling of the carrot to try to get something else out of you.

And that's definitely happened to me a lot when I lived in Southern California. Not so much in recent years. I think a lot of people have come to see kind of through the industry, like independent magazine industry and see it for what it really is. Because there's legitimate magazines that actually have like advertisers that back them up, that pay the people that submit to them.

And then there's like independent magazines and it's just like some guy started it himself and he's using it as a bargaining chip to like get models to also do something else on the side. Yeah, exactly. And the girls are aware of it. I think for the photographers, it's just a little harder to be aware of it because it means letting go of previous goals and a previous like MO of how to do things. I mean, yeah, change is hard. Change is scary. I get it. Just be real about what you're doing.

You know, if you're doing it for a magazine publication, like understand that that's probably for you. I'm sure the model would enjoy having a copy of it for herself so she can have something to hold. You know, same way I enjoy taking Polaroids. It's awesome to put them on my fridge. But don't be delused that girls care about being a Playboy centerfold anymore. Like, Playboy's gone. The magazine industry's gone. The era has passed.

Yeah, the era has passed. It's now, it is now a timeless art project instead of a brand development opportunity.

Okay well that concludes part one of this extensive deep dive episode of different photographers who like to shoot with models the second part is going to definitely be the part that is a lot more taboo so be looking out for that coming up in the next two weeks i would love to hear your feedback and if you like this kind of episode you can always reach out to me with questions give my email address or want to shoot me a dm on instagram like

i'm all about it so all right we will catch you on the next. Music.