Cate Blanchett in "The Good German"

spk_1:   0:00
What do you do on Sundays?

spk_0:   0:02
We talked about Cate Blanchett, the act, the costumes, the awards, but mostly Blanchard of it all. I have not acting. Thing is a Erica. This is Sunday's escaped and I'm your host or Todd. Welcome to Sundays with Kate, our podcast series about the films of Cate Blanchett. Every week we choose one of Cate Blanchett's film, and we talk about it with a guest. Our film this week is 2000. Fix the Good German, directed by Steven Soderbergh and started Kate George Clooney in Tobey Maguire. And my guest is Megan McGirt, who hosts the SAS Most same podcast, which is a podcast about women's picture from the classic era. Hi, Megan, Thank you so much for coming.

spk_1:   1:01
It's my pleasure. Muthana. Thank you so much for having may. I'm delighted to participate.

spk_0:   1:06
I'm delighted to have you. I have been a listener to your podcasts for awhile and a fan of it, and I thought, a movie that wants to be a movie from the forties who would be better to talk about it than you?

spk_1:   1:20
Oh, you're so kind. Well, you know, it's funny when you suggested this picture I thought the good German, Who the hell's in that? I I had no context for it at all. And when I looked, I saw that you know, it was released the same years notes on a scandal which I did see in the you know, cinemas when it was released. And I thought, Oh, that's why so that got all the attention because that's a very flashy role in in a way. But honestly, I didn't know Cate Blanchett was in it, and I didn't know who else waas. And then when I saw her co stars War, I thought, Oh, maybe that's why I blanked on it because I'm not a fan of Clooney or Maguire, Um, especially Maguire. Jesus. So, um so I was shocked, But, you know, I didn't really look at it up or anything when I sat down to watch it and wow, from that opening the logo, the Warner Brothers logo and I just I tears came to my eyes. That's still a black and white picture, and it's just so gorgeous to look at.

spk_0:   2:21
It is, I believe this is maybe the best. Kate has looked in a movie, and it is The movie is very, very gorgeous, so beautiful, But let's start with what the good German is about to the good German, IMDb says. While in post war Berlin to cover the Potsdam Conference, an American military journalist is drawn into a murder investigation. So this is George Clooney. He plays this correspondent who goes to cover the conference, but in a while there he really only wants to look for his love. Kind of like Casablanca. So Cate Blanchett plays his German women Lena Brandt, who he was involved, who is before the war before he left Berlin in the late thirties. And now he's back in 1945 to look for her. And then his driver is played by Stobie Maguire. And what a coincidence that till be knows Lena too. Well, is it a coincidence we're gonna

spk_1:   3:20
knows her in the Biblical sense?

spk_0:   3:22
Yes, they both know her in the biblical and so there is a murder. And then there is an investigation. But the movie is really about these deep secrets of what happened to this woman during the war, and it is something that she carries with deep shame. Where you going? I have someone to meet you. Stop

spk_1:   3:42
following me about the curfew. Life is inconvenient sometimes like that. It's not safe on always, it seems not safe. Who? Someone who could get me out. I'll go with, you know, try to get you out of Berlin and wound up dead. Someone is waiting for me. Why is it so important for you to get out? Please? What are you running away from?

spk_0:   4:00
And the structure of the film is It's sort of. They hand the narrative baton from one character. The others to the movie stars were still wire as this driver spoiler. He dies 20 minutes in. It's a terrible performance, and thank God he goes. And

spk_1:   4:16
not soon enough.

spk_0:   4:19
And then the baton is handed to George Clooney as he's trying to discover. Find out who this good German is. And then, finally, the movie reveals what it's all about, and it's about this woman. And what happened to her during the war is she. The good German to the German could also refer to her husband, who work to the SS, and that's why she was able to survive. But also she betrayed a lot of people and the movie is about sort of what At least I think it's about what you carry with you that survival guilt. But you carry with you in these dark times. So Berlin during the Second World War, what do you think that movie was about?

spk_1:   4:59
That's a great synopsis, I think. Survivor guilt is That's right on the nail on the head there. Mortada. I would agree with that completely, and I like the way it we don't get the answer until the very end. And I have to say when it comes, and I wouldn't spoil it for the world when it comes. I had a violent reaction. I shouted at the screen, You know, my television thinking. How could they do this to her? Like she hasn't suffered enough? And now she has to have this, you know, legacy of guilt. But then I thought, after you know, thinking about it for, you know, overnight, that that's the like. This isn't just some soppy let's make a forties picture. It's it's realism, and it is not sentimental izing anything that happened, which I think it probably would have been really distasteful if they just went for a romantic angle I mean, the women who survived, especially the type of woman that she is, her background, it would be very unlikely that you could have survived without having done some horrible things. So I you know, I like that. Maybe that they went for the tougher ending. And they that Soderberg was true to this idea of realism rather than just giving us the glamour and every time. Well, I'm probably jumping ahead of myself here, but every time we see Kate and we get some glamour, he's really quick to undercut it in some way. I'm to remind us that this isn't, you know, a really happy time for anybody to say the least.

spk_0:   6:34
No, I mean, she looks so great. Like the black and white cinematography, the red lips dig the dark hair. She's always introduced in shadows, and then she comes from the Shadow into the light. In fact, her first introduction is like that where she appears about six minutes in and she's was Tobey Maguire and they're having sort of an argument, and he's talking to her. But we don't see her first, and then she walks into the light. It's she looks great. I think it's the best she's ever look. But you're right. There is this tension between how great and glamorous she looks and the reality of this woman's life and that tension is what makes the performance interesting and what makes the movie interesting.

spk_1:   7:15
Yeah, because we can't pigeonhole her. And so when you're talking about that lovely introduction that we get from her when she steps into the light, she's lovely. But we see her before that, but we don't know it's her yet when she is the first time we see Kate on screen, she's belly down on the bed, receiving Tobey Maguire, as it were. And then he sang to her. Do you like your job? So we know that they're really not romantically involved. It's a transaction. And when she when the mask slips and she says to him, How do you like your job in the motor pool? Um, then he becomes violent. And then she goes right back to her submissive mask of Just do whatever appease a man, no matter what. So before we get that beautiful shot, we get her, you know, in that really submissive pose, taking a doggy style. So we don't get, like, an easy glamour. Here we get it and you know he take it and give us a same time.

spk_0:   8:15
Yeah. I mean, I love that intro of her, The walking into the light. And it did remind me of a lot of introductions of 40 stars. I mean, it's not the same, but I was reminded of the beginning of the letter because that one is also dramatic. And Bette Davis, you hear the gunshots first, and then she walks in holding the gun. And that's what I was reminded off.

spk_1:   8:40
That is great. So or, you know, many other heroines as well are Mildred Pierce or ah, bunch. Um, but I like that you're you're always kind of aware of all these other women and the forties legacy on on screen. But it's not just this sort of parody or or run through or you know it. There's so much depth to it. So you couldn't just like I see the shadows of all these other women, and that's her history and she embodies. She seems so much more aware of it than other actors do. Like, say, Kate Winslet. When she played Mildred Pierce on screen and said, Oh, I hadn't seen the film Really. You haven't seen every best actress Oscar winning performance and that's your line of work. She was just, like, so willfully ignorant. And then so you know, then you have to invite those comparisons. But Kate like, is all. She's always aware of all of that, but it doesn't overwhelm. And she's not just mimicking.

spk_0:   9:40
Yeah, she's not. And I think you know So Steven Soderbergh. This was an experiment, right? So he said to make this film just like as if it was made in the 40. So he used cameras and lenses from the time he shot it on sets in L. A. This was not on location, so this was all built sets, and he asked the actors to sort of perform in a stage presentational way, as if they were from that air before the method. And I think to the point you were just making that fits Kate to a tee like I think it's that she is the performance that pops she is. Her performance is the center of the film, and I think this film completely failed with both audiences and critics. But I think it would have been a completely unwatchable movie if not for this performance, because I think she is. Of all the actors, the one who totally understood what would the task Woz, What the job Waas that they were asked to do?

spk_1:   10:44
Oh, I agree Completely. Like if it were just, uh, George Clooney and, um, Tobey Maguire. I would have no use for this film is as lovely as it is to look at. I mean, Clooney surprised me because I maybe because he's getting his ass handed to him so often that it's tolerable, that he's not trying to be Cary Grant here, that he's clearly out of his element. But then you wonder, How can that really be if he lived there before? If he was, you know, the head correspondent for news. You know, before the war it wasn't like it was a walk in the park. Then I mean, Berlin was a rough town. Then, any at any point, the thirties, I would have watched it. You know, the buildup. We get that anticipation of seeing her and seeing her each time and seeing how she changes with a light and with costumes is so remarkable. You're right. We only care about seeing her. And when she's not on screen, you want her back?

spk_0:   11:38
Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned George calling instead of being beat up. And this was also kind of went in, endeared me to him in this movie because he is not playing a leading man of the forties. Like you wouldn't see Humphrey Bogart being beaten up like this. And like almost every time he goes out to try to figure out this murder investigation, he gets speed up and he spends half the movie with plaster on his ear. So it's very funny to me that he did that, and that's what makes his performance interesting. But I wanted to ask you also about his chemistry Was Kate. Did you feel it? Did you feel like this is they met in Berlin in the thirties? He was a correspondent. According to the story, she was his stringer. Everybody keeps saying, Oh, your secretary and he's like, No, she's my stringer it, which is a funny little joke, and they fell in love. She was married, so it was an illicit, doomed love affair from the beginning. And for that to sort of pop on screen. The actress have to smolder. And I know that Kate can have chemistry was anyone. But I wanted to ask you, Did you feel that doomed love affair in their scenes together, their chemistry together and give you that charge?

spk_1:   12:48
Well, what I want to see or the dynamic that I love to see most on screen is when a man looks like he would cut off his own leg to be with a woman, that he's obsessed, that he wants to be worthy of her, that he wants to do whatever he can for her. And she could not give him, like, you know, the time of day even, let's say, instead of the profanity that is, um that I that's what I prefer because, you know, at this point in her life, first I do believe that they could have been lovers and that she could have loved him in the past because you can see this kind of easy you. No way it would be to just settle on his arms. But she's so far beyond that now. She can't go back in time, and I would go off on the about probably the blue dress at some point in this episode because I love that scene so much. But I do believe that it was there. But it's she it's over for her, and not for any reason other than, like her immediate personal gain or safety. Would she have anything to do with his character? I just don't see it. She has lived through too much. You know, where he swan around in an officer's uniform that he doesn't really even have the right to, you know?

spk_0:   14:01
Yeah. I mean, there is this contrast between them, right? He is just He hasn't seen what she has seen and what she has seen during the time that he was a way to your point. It's just too grave for her to just go back to their What's the scene of the blue dress? Tell us about that.

spk_1:   14:28
Oh gosh, I love that scene so much because it's right out of a classic studio era woman's picture, and it made me think so much of Dietrich and dishonored from 1931 where she plays a spy. And there's this funny scene in there. But it's also very taut and very sort of suspenseful where she's disguised as sort of like, ah, peasant girl with her big dren DL skirts and the way her bust is padded so that even her breasts looked kind of like heavy and pendulous. And she's no makeup on and her hair scraped back. And these severe braids kind of like those that Jean Arthur war in, ah, foreign affair that more Elena makes fun of. But so she's in this in Congress outfit that's so different from everything else. We've seen her, and you know where she's wearing this gorgeous monkey fur coat that she's later assassinated in, and she's got this great Roman centurion outfit on. And so she's dressed like a scrub woman here, and it's so it just underscores everything. How much opposite her life, ISS And for Kate. In this film, there's a very similar scene, but it's with the blue dress and money they first meet, and he's talking to her about Oh, that blue dress that you had and everything. So he walks in on her when he he's moved her and her roommate into the attic, Garrett and she pulls out the dress and she she's got it on, and she's like, Look at these sleeves. Look at this Rusche hang. Nobody wears anything like this anymore and she's saying You know how much style everything had back then And it is so much different than anything else she's worn in this picture. She's all black satin beating, you know, nightclub closed, dark clothes, clubs that close that absorb color. And now she's in this blue satin dress that is very it's V Neck and it's very prim. There's no cleavage and it's got like this, you know, flared skirt. It's wholesome and flirty, and she's so far removed from what flirty is, you know? I mean, she has to just sort of bear, you know, grin and bear kind of thing. So she's in this gorgeous dress that she had. It has no context, no place in her life. That's why we don't see her wearing it. So she's just trying to try it on and remember and remember herself. Then the costume. There was such a great turn of for a way to say a lot about her character's passed on how different she is now from you know then So Louise Frog Lee did the costumes for the good German. And so that was really good.

spk_0:   17:04
Yeah, I love that seem to. And I think that's the same scene where she talks where he asks her later on in the scene What happened to her. And she says, I survived, right?

spk_1:   17:14
Yes, that's the scene. Exactly.

spk_0:   17:16
Yeah, and I love that scene because that's the scene where Kate gets to play a range of emotions in that scene as she she doesn't really tell us or tell Clooney what happened to her in during the war. But when she just says I survived in the cameras on her, you can see on her face kind of. We can imagine what has happened, and we know that it wasn't pleasant, and we know that it was actually horrible. And I think that was my favorite moment of hers in the whole movie.

spk_1:   17:45
It's It's her whole character and her story summarized in one line. So yeah, that that's a great scene. Um, so and then you know she's not in. Then she goes into I think the next time we see her, if not, you know, or the next time she's outside. In the day she's got this sort of military looking jacket on with the the cross body satchel. And you knows where she's taken the Blake into the German or the Russian sector there without the portrait of Stalin behind her. So, yeah, it's such a dramatic change, its sea and nothing else. And her life is the same. So I love that chameleon like quality that she always exhibits, is she becomes whatever you know, the way she inhabits her body and her clothes and her mannerisms all make, you know, fit the scene, whatever it needs.

spk_0:   18:39
Yeah, she's great, and I think she also to me, she leaned into exaggerated gestures and fluid theatrical body movements. I mean, I've talked this podcast before about how Kate is a full body performance, but also in this movie it's she gets the forties tone, and she is doing it in a way that every time the camera is on her, she is bigger than life. She is playing this woman whose reality is grim and the performance is realistic, and you can see the pain and the anguish in all of that. But also I think at no moment that she is guys the fact that there is an artifice to the performance that, yes, the story of this woman Israel. But also she's an actress playing it in a movie set and that sort of tension between both things it's just made me. This is one of you know, I love Kate. I love most super performances, but this is what it's like. It's really up Hi there for me cause this things that I love about her as an actor, which is distention between artifice and realism, are just exaggerated to the maximum in the good German.

spk_1:   19:48
Okay, so for for things like, um, you know, small movements when she's smoking, she's not just smoking a cigarette. She doesn't smoke like, say, her roommate does. She smokes in a very deliberate and, as you say, a very stylized way where she holds her cigarette, her cigarette sticks sort of. It's perpendicular. It sticks straight up, which was something that Bette Davis did quite a bit say, like in now Voyager or something, or even Joan Crawford in ah, Woman's face when she's holding the cigarette when she's like trying to work out how she feels about the doctor and everything played by Melvyn Douglas. So it is even something as how she smokes is very of that era. And it becomes a bit more dramatic because most people don't smoke like that today, you know.

spk_0:   20:38
No, they did not only the old movies,

spk_1:   20:43
Um, but, you know, that has a lot of dramatic importance. I think

spk_0:   20:48
it does. And because this movie is there is an obvious homage to Casablanca. Like even if you look at the poster for the film, it was a directory creation very close to the 19 forties poster of Casablanca. And the story is sort of similar to cause a block of the two lovers who met before the war and now who meet later on, and their obstacles, although it's much more serious in this movie. And then the movie ends in an airport similar to Casablanca. So any writing about this movie that I found it always mentions Casablanca.

spk_1:   21:25
It's funny, even the way the shipping crates air sort of stacked up on the tarmac. It looks like Casablanca like everything. Yeah, so it's

spk_0:   21:34
definitely an obvious home. Logic has a blanket would bring this to sort of like. That's why most writers who wrote about this movie at the time compared this performance of Ingrid Bergman in Casablanca, but I actually didn't see Bergman at all. I think eight is a lot more stylized than then. Bergman was in Casablanca in some mention Marlena Dietrich, especially in Billy Wilder's A Foreign Affair. And because that movies also said in Berlin, Did you see any Homo? Just Bergman or Dietrich?

spk_1:   22:02
What? Definitely, especially with a costume Thio Dietrich. And you know that the kind of way that her cheek bones or lits looks like something league arms would do for her. You know what you mean. That that bold contrast of her cheeks and her face in the shadow the only I didn't really see Casa Blanca except for the ending and then, as you say, the poster. But what I did see a Bergman is from a different film, which would have been from 1948 the arc of Triomphe, um, with Charles Boy, who's my favorite leading man. And there she plays a sex worker and, you know, it's it's It's a grim, grim movie. I mean, it opens up within a a woman dying from an abortion, and you know, she stashed away in a garret, and it's all very depressing. It was a big flop, and it made no money. But I'm drawn to it because Bergman so dark and she's so, um, sort of undone in a sense. And maybe she's got a little bit more of that despair, You know that she shares with Lena, Cate Blanchett, Selena. But I don't I don't really see Casa Blanca here because, you know, the whole dynamic between Bogart Bergman is that that yearning for what they can have again. They both want it, but I don't see it because Kate doesn't want George Clooney back. She she wants what if he can get her out of the country, but that's about it.

spk_0:   23:36
She just wants to survive like she, she said. I have survived, and now all that's on her mind is just to survive. And survival here at this point in her life means to leave Berlin and leave it alone, because I think she carries enough that she can't even carry the love of another person on top of what she's carrying

spk_1:   23:55
your house. And she given everything. You know that when she tells them that great speech about isn't a woman supposed toe, you know, help her husband. Isn't that noble? Isn't that good? You know, like, what more do I have to give you? You men? I've given you everything. You know. You've taken my my innocence, my youth, my happiness. And I'm just burdened with guilt now. So what else can I give you, like? Just let me go? Let me walk off and be by myself.

spk_0:   24:23
Yeah, it's she's Lena is a very tragic person and very sad. There is, like, this sadness that you see whenever Kate his on screen, it's just right there in the eyes. You can't help but not see it.

spk_1:   24:36
Yes, it is. Um, so and even her flat looks like kind of like the one that Ingrid Bergman had in Arc of Triomphe. But, you know, definitely not Casablanca, but the lattes again. I see. You know Bette Davis, Joan Crawford. I see other women of that era who, you know, we're just straight up melodrama is really what This is just black and white. I

spk_0:   25:02
mean, there is a quote from Kate that she told Reuters around the time when the movie came out and I love this I love, which has said so I'm gonna quote it. I had to use my own resources and invent my own version, because what was the point of imitating Marlena Dietrich? She does it perfectly herself. I love that because she is being so much, but at the same time, it is an invention that is just hers. That's the character. That's her performance,

spk_1:   25:29
Gray And and that's the way to do it. Rather than say, I haven't seen it or I don't know, it's or, you know, this is just me to say I'm aware, you know? I mean, who's gonna to say that Marlena can't play herself better? I mean, that's the way to take it. I think you look. I mean, she won the Oscar for playing Kate Hepburn, right? And but I think that this is a better homage to Marlena or to all the women of classic Hollywood. Then that film was because you know there she's just this frustrated foil for, you know, Howard Hughes pretty much, and she doesn't get a whole lot of screen time, either. It is

spk_0:   26:08
a very long movie. She gets just just 1/3 of it, or even less. Yes.

spk_1:   26:14
So I mean, even in this film, I would've much rather had more Kate than a lot of the, you know, shenanigans between the man.

spk_0:   26:22
Yes, I mean, it's It starts with Tobey Maguire, and it's just like I feel that's probably why nobody wanted to see this movie, because the first half hours, mostly him and it's it's really a terrible performance. I don't know what movie he thought he was in or what he thought he was doing. He's like a child. He doesn't fit the tone of the movie or somebody from the forties. And then you get Clooney. And then finally you get Kate, and I think, if so typical, had found the way to center Kate from the beginning. The movie reveals itself in the end, as Lena Story and you. That's the story we find ourselves with and how it ends. But he should have brought that earlier on, and the movie would have been more successful if he had done that

spk_1:   27:07
right. I mean, definitely Toby's role is to show us how far she's fallen, you know? So this is your protector, or this is what she's reduced to to take in a doggy style from Tobey Maguire. I mean, you know, it's it's a bad fate. Pretty much. It's not like he's charming or he's smart. Or by the looks of things a little, you know, flash. We got of him in the sack. It wasn't really, you know, passionate or good. Right it is. Wham bam. Thank you, ma'am. Kind of moment. This is your fine, brave American. And at the same time, we see that he's one of those operators who would never make it anywhere except for the circumstances that he's there to profiteer like this is a picnic. And it's gonna, you know, I never want to leave here, you know, um, he'll side with the Russians. He doesn't care. He wants to stay and, you know, play the big man repulsive.

spk_0:   28:01
He is very repulsive.

spk_1:   28:13
I have nothing to be ashamed off. I didn't say you did the war. It's convenient. Untold blame, everything on the war. Isn't that why you left the war?

spk_0:   28:30
I found that blue dress. I bought you all the old things all the old times. This is my life now. Tully at least understood that What was Tully doing in Potsdam last night. I don't know you want with him, but Stone is in the Russian zone. I don't go to the Russian zone. Lena, If I can find you, so can they. As if

spk_1:   28:57
I'm the only one who needed help. Look at you. What is it you're not telling me? It couldn't be that I loved him. You don't need to be afraid of him anymore. You need to protect him anymore. I think if you hadn't left Jacob, nothing would be any different. Nothing. If if you want to stay, it's 500 marks. Make up your mind. I'm going to. Another

spk_0:   29:48
scene I wanted to talk to you about is a scene later in the film when Lena is trying to leave Berlin. And there's this Scottish bar man who helps her, and he helps her by basically securing her. A date was a John and the John turns out to be George Clooney and they meet and he's like, I'll pay you the money and they have this long conversation where we finally this is very late in the film where we finally see how they loved each other way back in the thirties because they don't say much, but it's just the way they're interacting with each other. And actually, I think it's Clooney's best moment in the film. The way he looks at her in that scene, you can see why he was doing everything he was doing from the beginning of the movie, why he was back in Berlin. She has a lovely line where, where she tells us and tells him she says, You can never really get out of Berlin, which is she knows that even if she does get out of Berlin, which is what she's trying to do, it's a state of mind that she will always carry with her. And and I think that scene I already said that Kate's best moment is the I have survived saying that I think that it's Clooney's best scene, and she is also matches him beautifully in that scene.

spk_1:   31:04
Oh, I think that's a great example. I would definitely agree with that that you know that she's trapped, it's there and her it's it's penetrated her skin. She's not going to get away from it doesn't matter where she is. She carries around this burden and yeah, he plays it really well, really Earnestly. I mean, I believe it, you know? So he does sell it there when she says that really fatalistic line. I think if you hadn't left Jacob, nothing would be any different. Nothing. He wasn't gonna save her, that the forces were just too big. And, you know, she's in this big pile of dead bodies. Basically,

spk_0:   31:43
Yeah, Yeah, it's It's such a tragic performance and roll. And you mentioned that when this movie came on and you saw, like, the classic Warner Brothers logo you got teary because you love the movies from the forties. What is your opinion off the experiment of trying to make a movie in 2005 as if it was made in 1945. Do you think this was successful?

spk_1:   32:09
I d'oh ay dio I I think it was It was much It was so much more than just a paint by numbers. I mean, this was a labor of love, and it looks so good. So Soderbergh Berg did the cinematography as well, and it's so careful and it's so, um historically accurate and striking that why can't we have more? Now I know that I saw a brief interview with Kate that said that you know, it's so expensive to process black and white film and there's really there. She said there was only one place where they could send it to have it done. So it took a long time, and studios don't want it back some. But I you know, I'm not the only one. But I prefer a black and white production, especially for this kind of material. Why do I want to see that in color? It looks so much better in black and white. I mean the scenes where they're, you know, driving around. She's cycling, Kate, cycling around the rubble. I mean Oh, my gosh, that is to me much more powerful than if it had been in color, just the devastation that bear graphic terms in the black and white. Photography is just beautiful. So I would love to see. I mean, you know, I don't know if you saw that miniseries was the Last Tycoon. That was about Fitzgerald's novel. It was done in color, and I thought, Oh, gosh, you know, you got cold feet here. It should have been in black and white. If you're giving me something from that era. I want to see it in black and white. And even if it isn't, I mean, there are other, you know, not as many, but there should be more filmed on that way because it just lends its just so striking to May. When I saw that black boy, I didn't know it was in black and white until I put it on. I was like, Oh, my God, I love it already. And I know I know that most people hated this picture and I just don't get it. You know, it's a rip off a Casablanca and no, it isn't. Did you watch it so I don't get it?

spk_0:   34:09
Yeah. I mean, it was notoriously a big, huge failure, like, I don't think anybody who was involved with it thought he was gonna fail at this scale, like Soderbergh or Clooney or even Kate herself. And it just nobody went to see it. And I think it's because to what you were just saying, people just thought it was. Why would I want to see Casablanca dot and again when I could just go and watch the real Casablanca? But it is not not Casablanca. And it is. There's a lot more to this movie than that.

spk_1:   34:40
I think so. Now do you think it would have been better or more successful had have been done in color?

spk_0:   34:46
I don't think it would have been more successful if it's done in color. I think I don't know what turns people off about it. I think maybe the experiment itself, the fact that they were selling it Oh, we're making this movie as if we made it in 1945 or where the only difference is we're gonna the Freer. So there's more sex and profanity. That's the only difference. I don't know. That's what turned people off, or maybe the tone of it. I think the tone of it is very deliberate, and it's very stylized than maybe people were just not into that in 2005. Also, when you you know some stylized movies do were and become successful. But I don't know why this movie was just so ignored and just dismiss, not even ignored, just completely dismissed by everything. What?

spk_1:   35:33
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I didn't even when you said the name, I I thought who's in that? I don't. I had no frame of reference at all for it. Um, but maybe because the ending is really just, you know, kind of Ah, Downer, to put it mildly. Ah, Maybe that's why because I think people are set up If they think, Oh, it's this. It's this love story or something and there's gonna be a happy ending and the fade out, they're gonna walk off together, And that's not what he's interested in. And, you know, frankly, we have those pictures already. We don't need another one off the in order mean So even though I was violently opposed to the ending at first, once I sat with it for a while, I see why they went that way, and I think it really it makes a better picture because it's not just giving us this fairy tale. It's a nightmare. What Kate lived through in this picture

spk_0:   36:27
tell me why you were violently opposed to the end. I think we can spoil a little bit because this movie is years old.

spk_1:   36:34
Well, I don't want to die. I don't want to spoil too much, but in a sense it seems like she is made to be, ah, culpable or horrible, or that she's the villain at the end because she did this horrible thing. But, I mean, look at all the men that she's surrounded by, who did horrible things and murder people. And, you know, the door project with the banality of evil, where they have these columns and tables and charts to figure out how to kill people more effectively. I mean, the men in this picture and in history were savages. And I just I feel like, Why are we blaming this poor Jewish woman at the end? You know, why does she have this irredeemable flaw at the end? Or this burden that, you know, makes George Clooney, you know, like he's a kid waking up toe, realize that not only is there no Santa Claus, but he's also a puppy killer or something, and that's probably not a good way to talk about this. But, I mean, if you survive, you did horrible shit that I mean, that's and the men did it, too. I wanted her to be able to have that sense of, you know, not necessarily having a heroic ending, but being able to have her past be her past and not to be judged by this guy who can walk out any time he wants. You know what I mean?

spk_0:   38:02
Yes, And you know, in reading reviews during my research for this episode, I think you might have nailed why this movie didn't succeed because of that ending. Because if you read The New York Times Review by Manohla Dargis, she had a big problem with the ending. Same to what you were saying is that why shift the burden to the character of Lena? And she was very ungenerous. This helmet even decayed, I think just because he hated the ending so much, I mean, her put her review of the performance is like she says about Kate vamping Cate Blanchett recalls Rainer Fassbender's Postwar heroin Veronika Voss by way of Carol Burnett, which is very cruel and not true.

spk_1:   38:46
Oh, Jesus, it sounds like pulling camel. I you know, I don't see that at all, but I'm just I was angry that why do they have to make her be so much worse than, say, your run of the mill Tobey Maguire or any of the generals who were, you know, using human beings as pawn. You know, all these men are built up. That's where your saviors and what we've come here to hand you back democracy and they're all animals. So I can't say to me that Lena is any worse for what she did. I mean, yeah, which he does is awful. It's horrible. But they all did horrible ship.

spk_0:   39:23
Yeah. I mean, they do shift the blame to lay it directly at her. And that's why the ending feels so grave. Yeah,

spk_1:   39:32
yeah, that's it. Grave. That's a good word for So this is all another film that's all about men, Really? And then we have Kate and it kills me that she didn't get top billing here because she should have not George Clooney. But then I see her roommate, the fan dancer Hannelore, And I'm thinking, Who is this woman? I know this woman. It's Robin Weigert who's better known as Calamity Jane from Deadwood. And I was like, Holy cannoli! Here's Calamity Jane playing. You know, she's got a Betty Grable sort of blondes, platinum blond hair. D'oh! And she's the fan dancer in the dive bar. She's tearing off all these saucy lines about George Clooney like 500 marks just to talk. That's what I call a real perfect. That's great. She's like she's shoving ham sandwiches in her face. And Kate's very generous because she doesn't try and compete. She just lets her have it. And every scene she's in, she's just because she's the sunny opposite. Even there she has this very dour persona, but her looks her complexion or hair the whole bit. She's like the opposite of Kate, and so it works really well because you really needed another woman in this picture. It's not like there was a large population of women left after the war, but still there were some. So I just loved her in it. And every time I see her, I'm like, Who is this woman? Um, I have to look it up. It's like I never recognize her. She always sounds differently. She always looks differently, so that was really good.

spk_0:   41:09
And some of our listeners might know her as Nicole Kidman's psychiatrist in Big Little Lies.

spk_1:   41:14
Oh, exactly. I watched that as well, and I was like, Who is this woman?

spk_0:   41:18
She's so great. She's always great.

spk_1:   41:21
Yeah, she's really good

spk_0:   41:23
the good German came out in 2006 which was a great big gear for Kate. So she had three movies coming out within weeks of each other. So there was this. There was babble with Brad Pitt. And then there was notes on a scandal with Judi Dench, and they all came out within weeks of each other late in the year. And when I was doing my research, I found this interview with NPR, where she apologizes and she says it in a very nice way. She says that she apologizes for Quote being so present at the moment.

spk_1:   41:56
But I apologize in advance to audiences old around the world how how present I am

spk_0:   42:03
at the moment. And I wanted to ask you, Megan, of these three films, Which one do you prefer?

spk_1:   42:11
Oh my gosh, definitely the good German. Yeah, I know that notes on a scandal is like a really lush, you know, part for her, and it's got a lot of press not shocking, and you know, the whole tension between her and Judi Dench. But I kind of like, really, you're throwing away everything for this boy. I don't know. I just I just don't get what the appeal is. And okay, I saw a babble when it came out, and I don't remember one single thing about it. Not one.

spk_0:   42:43
Yeah, I remember that. She has a small part and she gets wounded and she has to basically play her whole part while she's gravely wounded, were even mortally wounded. I don't remember if she dies or not, but

spk_1:   42:57
she's Is she lying in the back of something with a stomach wound or something? Yeah. See, you know, I tend to avoid Brad Pitt movies as well, and I know that's a very unpopular opinion because people love them so much, but nothing going on there for May

spk_0:   43:14
I love the good German, and I think Kate has never looked better in a in any of her roles, as she has looked in the good German, just physically the most gorgeous she has, and I would think the performances pretty fantastic. But I still love the battle of wills between her and Judi Dench, and I love it when you see sort of two actors of that strength and just go at each other and and that movie's kind of like a camp classic for meals. So I know it's a little problematic with its gender politics, but it's just a fun movie. I enjoy watching and quoting to my friends all the time.

spk_1:   43:54
Oh, really? I'll have toe have to have another look, but you know I love. I love to see films where women are behaving badly when it is like a fully drawn character. And they're not just the sort of, you know, cardboard cutouts where she's she's bad because she's a woman. But here, you know, I want to see a woman with an appetite and who breaks the rules and goes after what she wants, even if she knows she's gonna be punished for it. I mean, that's great. I want to see more of that. And I know that, you know, she's clearly, you know, very desirous of the young man who catches her eye kind of thing. But my favorite Kate would be Carol, which probably isn't a surprise to you because it is hiring Carol. I love it and Carol, because it's everything I want to see more off. It's a proper woman's picture where the men are just sort of unforgettable backdrops who were there toe either be an impediment to be monsters or to get out of the way, basically. But all of the emotional on dramatic moments belong between women. And you know, Carol. It's a beautiful romance that we hardly ever see on, you know, on the screen between women. And then when you add, like the age difference and the class difference, there's just so many things to think about, an unravel and the depths there of performances and the heartbreak when they're separated for that time and you don't really know what's gonna happen. Plus, the costumes are amazing. So, yeah, that is my ideal Kate right there. But that's what I like because she can play. Um, you know, I guess what people call a period roll set in the fifties. But to me, that's just, you know, the world I inhabit. She can play that, but it's not like she is doing a costume picture. It's like you would think that's if that's a film from that era. You know, that's how much integrity the roles have. It's not like she's like, Oh, I'm in this, you know, poodle skirt kind of thing and aren't I? You know, Winky about it or something.

spk_0:   46:04
She is so great in Carol. Do you remember the first time you saw a movie of Kate or so her in a cinema?

spk_1:   46:12
I do. And that would be the town of Mr Ripley.

spk_0:   46:15
Another set of ice, miss Part.

spk_1:   46:19
So from 1999 right, So that's the first time I noticed her. And then probably the second film I saw was the gift, which is an overcooked, you know, mess in a way. But she's really good in it.

spk_0:   46:32
She's great in the gift. She is like she gives the movie gravitas that it, frankly doesn't deserve.

spk_1:   46:39
Yeah. I mean, Giovanni, we're B C. Oh, my gosh. Ham sandwich.

spk_0:   46:44
Oh, well, in that one. Yeah,

spk_1:   46:47
the overacting, the scenery chewing. And that's one of the best things I think about Kate is that she doesn't feel that need toe ever launch into that scenery chewing stuff, Especially here in the good German, where she could have really gone really over the top, as I think many actors would have played it is that she has that trick is like feeling it and thinking it and letting the camera pick it up instead of screaming or, you know, dramatic tears or something like that. She just lets us see her face, and that's really all we need.

spk_0:   47:20
So I usually ask my guests about a film where they think Kate was underrated. And actually, my own answer to that question has always been the good German, because I think not enough people have seen it or appreciated it, and I think she's great in it. So what would be our answer? Is there a movie that you liked her in that you think maybe other people don't like or appreciate?

spk_1:   47:44
Well, I would probably go with a good German as well, because, like I said, I hadn't heard of it. And so wiring people watching this film and talking about it and then I mean, it wouldn't be the first film that bombed when it was released and then became, you know, a big favorite

spk_0:   47:59
because releases just like a few weeks in the cinemas, and then the movie lives on its own. It takes a life of its own later on,

spk_1:   48:06
right. So I would I would go with a good German as well, because I think it's a shame that this was clearly a labor of love, and then people just didn't respond to it on dumb. I was like, Wow, this is pretty intense feeling.

spk_0:   48:21
It is it's a very intense movie. Who is your favorite Kate scene partner?

spk_1:   48:26
I would say I prefer seeing Kate with women. Um, you know that intensity of connection, whether it's an antagonised like Judi Dench or a lover like in Rooney Mara in, you know, Carol or something. And in general, I, like, see women talking with each other on screen because I don't get enough of, especially in, ah, you know, contemporary cinema. It's, you know, and I don't like to say the back the whole test because I don't care if they're talking about men or not. I mean, you know, we need that. But I'd like to see women talking to each other and screen and, you know, you know how it is. I mean, how many pictures does she make where she's up against a romantic leading man or leading man in general who's not half as interesting as she is? You know, I want to see her and talk to women, so, yeah, women in general.

spk_0:   49:16
So Cate and Rooney are actually gonna be in Nightmare Alley. And you mentioned

spk_1:   49:21
it. I couldn't believe it when I saw the photographs online. You know, I'd heard the rumor. Oh, he's remaking it. And then I saw a picture, and it was Kate with Rooney Mara, who plays calling Gray Gray's character. And then she would play the psychiatrist that was played by. Was it Helen Walker?

spk_0:   49:41
Yes, that's the case.

spk_1:   49:42
Yes, that is. That's the big, big, juicy role in that picture. And then my other favorite, modern actress Toni Colette, will play Xena, who is played by Joan Blondell. And I'm really looking forward to that. And I I'm not against remakes. I'm not at all because Hollywood's always remain made pictures from the silent era on. I just want them to be done with care. And I think this one is really gonna be done with care, and it's gonna try to do something interesting. Now I could I could do without the leading man, because I don't care for him. Fried Lee Cooper. I mean, Bradley Cooper is not fit to spit on Tyrone Power shoes for Shine, but I'm going to go see it even if he's horrible, because I know the women are going to be good. I just know it.

spk_0:   50:32
Yeah, I'm excited for it, too. And why do you think Lee List Ridder? I think that's the name of Kate's character is so well suited to Kate that you're excited about it.

spk_1:   50:42
Oh, because that intensity, if I were to say one thing that I didn't like about the good German, it would be the contact lenses that she has on those really dark lenses because I think her performance would have been so much better if we could have seen her eyes. So I think that detracted a bit through. No you no, no, um, fault on her own. But I could have done without the contact lenses. So the way that Kate that she has that ability with the great stars of woman's pictures is to act with her eyes. And I know that we're going to see everything when I can see her. Kate. I can see her sitting in the nightclub watching Bradley Cooper doing his act as the con artist, and I could see I can see her face that says she's figured out what he's doing and how he's pulling this scam. I can see her eyes weren't will narrow a little bit Her pupils will die away And then you know it'll click So I can I know it's gonna be good I haven't even seen seen it yet And I know it's gonna be good And I I hardly ever say that

spk_0:   51:46
I'm excited too. I can't wait to see her in Nightmare Alley. Well, thank you so much, Megan. For coming on Sundays Escape. It was

spk_1:   51:55
my pleasure.

spk_0:   51:57
Mine too. And before we go, tell our listeners where they confined your work and your podcast and where you are on social media.

spk_1:   52:06
Oh, thank you. Yes, I always forget that stuff. I'm very bad with promotion. So it's sass mouth James dot com. And you can find me on Twitter at mega McGurk and sass mouth games on Twitter. Yeah, I do a film club here in Dublin. I I have 64 podcast episodes, all about women in classic Hollywood from the 19 thirties through 19 fifties. Thank you so much for having me more thana. I loved our discussion today. Thank you.

spk_0:   52:38
Yes, And your podcast is a treasure trove. So if you like movies from the classic Hollywood era, you have to go Listen, whoever you like. Irene Dunne, Barbara Stanwyck, Joan Crawford, Joan Crawford. There, there. Yes, I love Joan, and I think this is how we connected on Twitter because of your love for Jo. Hwe

spk_1:   52:58
are good people, people who love Joan change

spk_0:   53:02
and cake, and you can find me on Twitter at m E, Underscore says, and follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram at Sunday's escape and until next time.