Cate Blanchett in "Mrs. America 1-3"

spk_1:   0:00
What do you do? On

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Sunday, we talked about Cate Blanchett, the act costumes, the awards, but mostly Blanchard of it all. I'm not acting thing is a mother. You Erica. This is Sunday's escaped and I'm your host for Todd. Welcome to Sunday's Escape. This is your host, Mortada, Alphonse. Every week we pick a Cate Blanchett film and we talk about it was a guest. We're changing things a little bit since Cate Blanchett is now on TV, so we're going to be talking about her New Who? Lou miniseries Mrs America, And my guest today is writer and filmmaker Taylor Montague. Hi, Taylor.

spk_1:   0:54
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I feel so blessed.

spk_0:   0:58
I'm very excited to have you to talk about the Siri's. I think there is a lot to talk about, So this is a little bit of a change for Sunday's escape. If you're joining us for the first time because you're interested in Mrs America, welcome were love that you're here, that you're listening to us. It's gonna be a great conversation if you're a longtime listener who has listened to our other 20 episodes, which were all about Cate Blanchett films. This is a little bit of a change. We're not reviewing and talking about. Just one film we're gonna review in this episode, the 1st 3 episodes of Mrs America. We'll have a little bit of a more time than you usually do, so we will dig in. The one thing that I just want to bring to everyone it's attention is that we will not be fact checking. We know some stuff about the seventies. We know some stuff about the e r. A. We know some stuff about the people involved, like Phyllis Schlafly or Shirley Chisholm or Gloria Steinem. But we're not historians. We read it, we read up. Both Taylor and I have read up, right? Yeah, WeII bred out. But we're not gonna be fact checking. We're not historians. That's not our expertise. You will find out somewhere else. But let's do good about Mrs America. I guess this is America is Phyllis Schlafly, which is funny because Phyllis Schlafly is someone like I started reading about only recently to know who she is, But then you read about her, and she's been somebody who has been influential. I loved what Kate herself said, about her in an interview is like depending on who you talk to. She is either Joan of Arc or the anti Christ.

spk_1:   2:37
That's true enlightenment. Also like that, Kate is like, I'm gonna play some one where there's no middle ground either. People hit them where they looked. Um,

spk_0:   2:45
yes, she goes in Mrs America is the story of the Equal Rights Amendment. What is we're going to refer to as the e r. A. So the area was this ratification into the Constitution about equal rights for women that was introduced in 1971 by a group of women who were basically the second wave. Feminists who came together introduced this and it was going to be an everybody supported it. Even Richard Nixon, who was president at the time, one of the worst president we've ever had. Everybody was in support of it, and then Phyllis Schlafly appeared and decided that Guess what? You're not going to ratify this, and unfortunately she was successful and it wasn't ratified. And it's because, as the show's is trying to tell us, she took this on not because she was interested in in rights for homemakers or whatever it is, she told us just to get more power. That was what she was interested in. That's what she wanted to get. She wanted to be. As Hamilton says, in the room where it happens in the only way she could do that is by talking about women and taking the stand against liberal women or, as she calls them, The Livers

spk_1:   4:05
kills me every time they do that. It's so funny. Every time just

spk_0:   4:09
says the livers I like, I feel so scared. And it's also because, in a way, the libres is much nicer than what you know, conservatives. Cole liberals now like lip tard. So Taylor, tell me first we saw the 1st 3 episode, which is what available, and we will try to talk only over the 1st 3 episodes, and we'll try to talk about them 1st 2nd and third. But we're gonna be spoiling big time. So if you haven't watched all three episodes put us on pause, watch those episodes come back because we're going to spoil. But Taylor, tell me first, what did you think of just general impression on the 1st 3 episodes? Did you like them where you entertained?

spk_1:   4:45
I also have to acknowledge my biases. I love a period piece. I love the seventies. Well, yeah, The first episode was a little rough for me. Not in a bad way. I understand it. They were, like, setting her up. Obviously, once we kind of things. Other figures in episode two and three. Okay. And I see where we kind of go this. But it really does set up a schlafly hoping their name, right? As a kind of like antagonised for the whole show. Yes, Another good way. I think this is really, like, a little new wants moments where we kind of understand how she's become to be, you know, a villain origin story, some sense and, you know, trying hard developments. Too easy. But I think the show does kind of give space for these nuances, right. She's essentially a failed mission mask to wear a bikini. You know, I do conventions stuff in my James Morrison's character. Actually with you. I apologize, but

spk_0:   5:37
I think his name is Crane.

spk_1:   5:40
Yeah, he has his hand on a small for back and all the other stuff, You know what I mean. And there is this kind of unwillingness on her part to play the game. Be a woman politician in a very typical sense, which I think is interesting. And so that's how I get the already becomes like this thing should come in center sites on to have some kind of success in that arena.

spk_0:   6:00
The setup of the show is that every episode is about one of these historical fingers. So the first episode let's start talking about that. The first episode goes to what you were just talking about, which is it is about Phyllis. So it's about Phyllis Schlafly, and that's how we're introduced to her. I mean, that first scene is actually flabbergasting Gabe Lash. It is a huge big movie star doing her first major TV role in her career. So before she gets the star treatment is that usually a star is introduced by people talking about them first about the character, and then the character appears, and that's what happens here. But what I loved about this show that it was very quick. It was really to minor character saying, Where is Phyllis? And she's like, there she is, That's all the talk we need, and then she comes out in a two piece swimsuit that she looks great, but it's also It just tells you to where you were talking about, like even a woman in her status. She's a very privileged woman. She's a rich woman, She has a lot of power, and she's somebody who at that point was one of was an author. Could she also the book with Senator Goldwater in 1964? He was the candidate for president, and that book is kind of what where she got most of her power from, because that book, you know, this is me reading up on her. That is the book that sort of that got her into all of these conservative circles, and that's where she got all her power. But still, she has to go out and be introduced as Mrs J. Fresh, lastly, in a two piece. But

spk_1:   7:32
I also think it will be interesting to see how this plays out on the show, right? I mean, there's been this conversation about white conservative women kind of being portrayed as victims of patriarchy, which they are very little representation of how they kind of support or play a hand in their own demise in that sense, right? How they don't realize that or they do realize and then just like certain privileges that come with a whole day conservatism. It's important for me as if you are me. I didn't do this, but it's important not to focus. The trappings of like Phyllis is victim in these instances, but I think they should be read as kind of like moments where it's like she just had to do that. And she's still trying to ratify this amendment.

spk_0:   8:12
Yeah, I agree completely. I don't. And this is one of the things that I've liked about the show so far. I think you were absolutely on the money there, Taylor, because the first episode seems to be saying to me that Phyllis as a woman, suffered from a lot of misogyny. That seems to be the seasons of that first episode, like From The From That Introduction First and then the first scene where she goes to talk to Phil Crane on his TV show, the character played by James Martin. And he's antagonizing her. He's very touchy feely, asking her to practice smiling, which this is one of my favorite cape moments when after raises, you need to practice smiling. She's like I got it. She like Phyllis, as portrayed by Daddy Waller, the creator of this show in this first episode is completely dealing with misogyny, but thus she know that she is or it's just she's used to it. She doesn't even notice it,

spk_1:   9:11
but I think that she she's expressing someone comfortable ity right. And I think I won't help Kay, please. Everything in her mouth, right? Like the car kind of discontent is all from here, down from her nose down, right? And so it was kind of like moments where she's like, even when she's like sitting on the couch. And we kind of see her in between on those men right in this group setting, and she has to get up and go get the pen on the secretary. Yeah, those thanks, Mrs Schlafly, and she goes Mrs Unmarried, right? It's like kind of cling to that little bit of privilege and proximity to manhood that she thinks makes her different than the other woman dealing with this misogyny. Not any different, and I think she has some sense of that, especially when her husband is like where she asked her husband Oh, you didn't think I was gonna win and he doesn't really say anything. So she has some self awareness, but I think she's also wanting her own political gains and self interest is going to turn a blind eye to it. Yeah, and try to lean into these moments. And she is the only woman in the room as kind. False proximity. The power is a woman.

spk_0:   10:18
Yeah, And I'm glad you wrote up the scene with Goldwater access to me. That was the key scene in that first episode. So that scene, you know, Phyllis ism in Washington. She is going there to talk to the senator about the Soviets and sold on about not signing any agreement about making mix and not sign any agreement, any nuclear agreement. And in the meeting, she gets there, and I and immediately they bring up the e. R. A. Because here is a woman. We're all men. Let's bring up the e r. A. Which is what was happening at the time. I immediately Phyllis starts the scene by saying I'll have never been discriminated against. And to me, I love that because the writing in that scene is so sharp in that the scene starts by her saying that. And then the scene becomes all about her being discriminated against for being a woman, from the fact that they complement her pink dress that she's wearing, which she calls Dusty Rose, asking her to take notes because she will have the best penmanship among them, which is another saying like Oh, you're a woman. So to me, this is where the writing becomes sharp and where this show sprang to life to me in that scene. And this is the scene also where Phyllis realize isn't Obviously this is not how it happened, I'm sure. But I love how they did it here because this is the scene where you see Oh, they will only take me seriously if I talk about women's issues and immediately on the dime, she realizes this. She turns it on, and immediately she forgets all about Nixon and salt and nuclear and Soviet and the e. R. A. Becomes her issue.

spk_1:   12:04
Yeah, and it's funny because now that I'm thinking about it further, right even talk about the instances of, like, massage in the throes of encountering, I mean she was essentially by Crane. Become a land of this water amongst these, like men in Washington. Mikey, he kind of coerces air, you know? Come, come visit me. Come, stay. Let's get a drink. Go to this bar. Doesn't have that. Let's go to the senator. Do that. And it becomes this kind of like, you know, like I have no interest in her her political career. I just want to be aligned with her around her in some way. And she and in a weird way, uses that you already kind of regain her power and that she doesn't have to do all the spaces. As you know, Goldwater's you know, Cole offer any longer. And now she's this person with this power and the same one used to be said, and it's really interesting it and then the way with pretend in the series of also really interesting just a lot of the like camera work and the afternoon is like is this is really

spk_0:   13:02
gate is amazing

spk_1:   13:04
doing her, they think

spk_0:   13:06
she is giving it to us.

spk_1:   13:08
Thio. Absolutely. I love the wig I love on

spk_0:   13:14
my favorite part of the scene is watching her is when she realizes, Oh, they're asking me to take notes and then she gets up and the power dynamic, the only person she can lord her power over in that scene is the assistant. And so she immediately and you look at her body language completely changes she's still accommodating. Was the man in the minute She's with another woman. In that scene, she realizes, Oh, you're a woman. I can, lord my power over you and her body language completely changes. And this is what I love about the performance she shows you. She acts with her body to show us that Oh, this is This is when Phyllis realizes, Oh, I could only get my power over other women.

spk_1:   14:00
Yeah, which is kind of ugly.

spk_0:   14:02
Yes, very ugly,

spk_1:   14:04
I think. Also sets the tone or like the rest of the show when period pieces air done. I'm constantly thinking about how much of that is from the perspective of having been passed that moment of history versus now, which is when we get into it really interesting to me, talking about the way race will play out on the show.

spk_0:   14:26
Yeah, we're gonna talk about it. We'll talk about Shirley so far.

spk_1:   14:31
I love you, but I wasn't even thinking like Gloria Steinem's friend. Yeah, it's kind of when we get into talking about episode, too, right, But this is kind of like Gloria has been dealing with people in the press, speaking poorly about her. What her black boyfriend never comes up. Yeah, me too. Like easy potshot in 1972.

spk_0:   14:53
Oh, absolutely, That wasn't used to me. I never knew Gloria Steinem had a black boyfriend. All that thought. Let's finish talking about Episode one, which is about Phyllis. I have a couple of things I want to talk about. They're trying really hard to show us that Phyllis was a feminist and not realizing was discriminated against and not realizing she waas because we talked about the scene with Goldwater and told the men at the Capitol. But also even her husband doesn't listen to her, doesn't think she's smart or it was gonna win and actually forces himself on her to have sex. So a lot of what is happening is the show is telling us to things, Phyllis things she's not discriminated against, but in fact, everybody in her circle all the men in her circle are discriminating against her abusing her at all time. And this is where I think the show differs from something like bombshell or something like Vice, where this show is telling us this

spk_1:   15:55
woman is

spk_0:   15:55
not that smart. This woman does not even realize what is happening to her.

spk_1:   15:59
Speaking, Speaking of this woman, I'm not that smart and we'll get this. We jump. I really do like the progression of kind of like the way they you see those trying to cling to power in her own circle, right, standing around women who she thinks she's smarter than them? Yep, We and I think that to come up with ideas for where I'm kind of like policing those ideas. But yes, I thought that scene with her husband was really interesting way of, kind of touching upon, not even just Phyllis, Right? Who is this like your said in middle class, upper middle class white woman who should have access to privileges will be protected from these, like little micro aggressions or things that she goes through, that not only is she affordable to them, but that they are kind of essentially a way of life, right? I mean, it's expected that a woman who is a homemaker oh, who was married should be ready to have sex whenever her husband expects her to. Even in that moment, her kind of old accountability with the aspects of that rule, which should put her on the side of the women that are kind of pro. E r. A. It's not clicking.

spk_0:   17:01
Not at all. I think that they're trying to do too much of showing us the misogyny around her Onda at the same time not showing us enough so far anyway, of how she wheels her her power as this privileged white woman

spk_1:   17:22
or if she's even aware of kind of. I've been looking a lot, too, and I'm curious again. I don't want to jump ahead. But her relationship with, like, the help,

spk_0:   17:32
Yeah, let me say one thing about her relationship was the help. I think that in the scene with her sister and low played by Jean Tripplehorn, you would see that that woman, Eleanor Schlafly, treats the help better than Phyllis like she calls the Made by her name. She thanks her while Phyllis is being very dismissive. So there is a little bit of subtle thing there, and you can see it in the performance of K. It's like she completely dismisses the maid in that scene. It's It's a blink and you'll miss it, but it tells you a lot. So, to your point, let's see if that will be explored more in the show or not.

spk_1:   18:12
Yeah, I didn't even even talking about her system. I was unmarried in the way that she kind of completely dismisses that woman's feelings, that we've seen her cry about back, that she has not been married and doesn't have kids. And then that becomes a talking point at the mother daughter lunch. And later. But no, these awful women who are unmarried, who have never had to deal with making a home, you know, I'm trying to take our rights away. Well, I says their muskets in the audience is really ugly, and I think that is a good moment in which, because Phyllis Schlafly is so essentially put together, right, so her evil is not necessarily immediately recognizable, especially risking her, and he's very vulnerable moments that we can expose the kind of sodomy she was up against. It puts front and center like, Oh, this is not a good person. It allows for that moment where you're like Oh,

spk_0:   19:05
Eleanor pours her heart out to her and cries and tells her how lonely she feels. And Phyllis is empathetic in that scene. She holds her. She tells her, Your life is full. She's like my Children think of you as more than an aunt or a mother to them. But when it comes to that scene, where she wants to pain the second way feminist as thes harpy single kami lesbians she does not shy away from hurting This woman who means so much to her or it should mean so much to her doesn't even realize she's hurting her. She just goes on.

spk_1:   19:40
I think that's also speak a lot of character. And I think, and knowing what I know about storytelling, take a little foreshadowing about those his capacity to throw women under the bus for her own gain, and the person I thought would kind of be next. In that sense, I can tell from the first episode they're studying us up for a star. Repulsive, well known, have statues and actress. I imagine she's not just gonna be the side man for the whole Siri's, if that makes sense, but they seem like they're setting us up for her to kind of be eventually at odds with Phyllis or be kind of something's gonna happen.

spk_0:   20:16
Yeah, so Sarah Poulsen plays a composite character. All of these women are really women, especially all the women on on the Side opposite to Phyllis. But it's terrible someplace. Somebody called Alice McCrae, who's a fictional character. She's a composite of women in Phyllis is Circle, so she's her friend. She's the one who brings to her first the e. R. A. She's scared that the E. R. A. Is gonna lead to her daughter being drafted and her not getting alimony. If she gets divorced, which is all, you know, we can laugh about it. But it wasa riel

spk_1:   20:50
concerned for her

spk_0:   20:51
and feel is dismisses her at the beginning. She's not interested, but then she picks it up after she goes to Washington. But you're right, you're right over the money. I think Sarah Paulson is gonna be the maybe the conscious on the conservative side,

spk_1:   21:03
I mean, and also like speaking to what you just said. Like it also, you know, for me, kind of brought back. This point of my Phyllis is exploiting, as trivial as it may seem, is a real fear, because this person is not well read. Write this person does not in politics or in law and is looking to solicit was like I'm a leader. I know law, I know the Constitution. I read these things. I'm well read and is exploiting that trust.

spk_0:   21:26
Phyllis is a fascinating character, but you

spk_1:   21:30
work,

spk_0:   21:32
but she is a terrible person. The end scene to me of the first episode was very appointment because the unseen is the women of the e. R. A. After the R A is passed in the house, they're celebrating their drinking champagne. The music is on their role happy. They're like how I ratified it 10 minutes after it passed in the house and they dismiss Phyllis because somebody comes in and says to Bella as But the congressman from New York was played by Margo Martindale. I think it's her age. She comes in. She's like you asked me to research the opposition and she brings the Phyllis Schlafly report and she's like here is the opposition. Here is what I found, and they dismiss it immediately. There is a big joke about Phyllis Schlafly, and they can't say her name. The only the Republican woman played by list banks actually knows their two l's in the names and they're like, Oh, we don't care. We're never gonna have to say her name again And it's It was I almost teared up. It was very poignant because I know the area never passed and you're gonna have to deal with foolish. Lastly, and I think that was like a great ending to that first episode.

spk_1:   22:44
Yeah, when they pour like, I like the close up shot with a four, the liquor in the glass and it hits the Phyllis Schlafly report and it Mexico but ink and everything like that because she wouldn't Yeah, don't want to be the biggest adversaries. And I think that's what's so interesting about, you know, even when we talk about from modern times, watching a show like this is kind of knowing the outcome, but still being the ride. This is something that I'm on the fence about. But the kind of portrayal of Phyllis is ambition. An episode one is really interesting. You know, Woman, that typewriter, the kind of sequence of her, you know, putting together all her little newsletters and taking up his name's and is really interesting how they portray her ambition from me. I'm always like, How do we told the line between like knowing that the outcome of this ambition is at the expense of until a great many people, And we'll see that probably as the series goes on. But I'm like, Phyllis is not a girl, boss. Okay? Not trying to start humanitarian efforts are tryingto create a start up here like she's really after some really all whole evil, you know, striking down certain legislation and upholding people who had really even also legislation like mixing.

spk_0:   23:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Phyllis, I mean, she's set up is the antagonist, but they have to humanize her in a way, and I'm still on the fence of Did they do a good job or not? What I like about it is that that first episode told us G is short sighted. She might not be a smart as she thinks she is, and she is cruel to everybody, even those who mean the most to her. Which somebody who has that ambition, who's that power hungry has to have these quality, you know, quote unquote qualities. So far, I'm intrigued by this portrayal you're listening to. Sunday's Escaped the podcast series about the films of Cate Blanchett. Way will return in a few seconds to discuss episodes two and three of Mrs America and later on, to delve deeper into what we love about Cate Blanchett's performance in the series and about the costumes. Don't miss out on earlier episodes where we discussed many of Blanchett's performances, from The Aviator to Blue Jasmine two, Oceans eight and the Good German available Wherever you listen to podcasts or at Sunday's with kate dot com, if you're enjoying the podcast, please rate and review Episode two is Gloria, and this is about Gloria Steinem as the glamour girl of the women's movement. And you know, Cate Blanchett is the star of this show, so I guess it's in her contract treehouse to every episode of Star with her. So the show start her with her husband after she made him in the first episode. She gives up her ambition of running for Congress because he didn't approve of that, But to get back at him, she moves her mom into their house. So the second episode starts with them moving her mom's boxes, and they're talking about feminist him. He's like feminist. Nobody likes them, and she's like, Yeah, they're no fun Cut two glorious, glamorous Gloria Steinem with her hair and glasses at a party in the Guggenheim having the most fun ever. I mean, it's something that Phyllis will never have. And I was her handsome boyfriend, played by J. Ellis from Insecure.

spk_1:   26:18
Wow. I was so kind of surprised to see a J. Ellis. I was not expecting what

spk_0:   26:25
I never think of Gloria Steinem, because, you know, I know her now. I don't think of her as the glamour girl. She is obviously very attractive woman, even now when she's older. But you don't think of her this glamour girl. So this completely undercut what I'm thinking about Gloria Steinem, cause I think of her as an activist. But here she's like, glamorous, and she's having fun. And she's the party of the Guggenheim. And there is a scene with Bella where, basically, Bella's Beck tells her, you are where you are because you're pretty and she's like So it's just my pretty face And Bella's like, No, your tits and ass, too.

spk_1:   27:01
Yeah, even even later, we see her editor being like I gave where first byline. Except that she had a really nice legs.

spk_0:   27:09
Yes, from the male publisher of Ms Magazine. So even at Ms Magazine, there's you have to deal with misogyny, even Gloria. At the height of her power, she just launched this magazine. Her male publisher tells her You only got it because you have great legs. What do you think about this portrayal of Gloria Steinem? Was it a surprise to you?

spk_1:   27:32
I mean, I'm not your problem. It's always surprised my my kind of background on Gloria Steinem was that I remember she had some. And again, we're not historians. But I remember she had written an expose about being a Playboy bunny, right? So I'd always kind of known that she had derived a dwelled in these spaces when she had to perform, and it was kind of her her looks and her body as, ah, way of like making money. We're, you know, living, affording to live. And so I wasn't stupid surprised about that. But I was surprised about her, her coming to power being a kind of point of contention amongst the other women in the movement, particularly the white woman. I know that black woman and white women have. You know, that clearly being set up for that in the show had, you know, issues amongst themselves around what women's. You know what feminism look like, what the woman's movement look like. We're the priorities of black women versus white women. But I did not know that Gloria's place put her in opposition like Betty Free Dan, which means No, I feel like that's history,

spk_0:   28:33
but the show puts them at opposing sides. So Gloria is on the rise, basically, and for Dan is declining at the time. Everybody keeps telling her you wrote your book 10 years ago, and nobody wants to listen to her. And also, maybe Gloria is a little bit more savvy. She knows she's pretty. She knows that gives her privilege. She knows a love that and she uses it. And Betty Frieden is, you know, antagonizing McGovern and McGovern's people and that sidelines her. And I mean it's a writer's way off of telling us what is happening right. By contrast, ing these two figures

spk_1:   29:11
also, I love Tracy Omen as Betty for Dan. Yes, and I'm like freedom is a character. I don't like that, she calls out Gloria. I think Gloria does need to be called that. I think she doesn't need to consider how she's acting in the contact with the show, needs someone to kind of check her and be like, I understand that you have these big political ambitions and I know that you want this on the floor. You want that it out. But like you can't allow yourself to be kind of people are aligning themselves with youto let themselves off the hook for the way they treat women when it made themselves seem more progressive than they actually are. And I think actually that scene where she's in the Guggenheim and she's walking with Betty as Buck um, and she's like the guy stops her goes, Can I have a photo with you? And she's like, we're having, you know, But he's like we're having a private conversation and choose the guy off and Gloria's like, That's my biggest advertiser and she's like No if you wanna win in politics is how you do things right, like the photo ops on Lee Go. But so far, that's what I took from that moment. That his ability doesn't necessarily mean power doesn't mean you can get these bills passed.

spk_0:   30:11
So Gloria is portrayed. I agree it's protected with little bit of night naivete. At that moment, she doesn't know where the power comes from, which will play even more in the third episode. I think what was very moving to me about the second episode and where Gloria really shines is the abortion subplot. So Gloria is very adamant. Among the other women of the movement. That day should force a vote in the 1972 Democratic Convention about abortion rights for women, and it becomes very personal. And this is a story that everybody knows that Gloria had an abortion when she was in her early twenties, and the show shows that and this that scene is taken right flung Gloria Steinem's autobiography that she was in England. She found some. She found a doctor who actually operated on her, and she has been grateful to him all her life. And there is a lot of scenes in this episode where she talks about women being butchered on kitchen tables, trying to get this abortion good, and I found it very moving. The most moving scene is when she meets this woman outside of Ms Magazine on the street, and the woman shows her the first issue of Miss, where all of these women said, I've had 12 and this woman tells her of being crammed into a hotel room was many other women while having her abortion, and that was the most pointed. Was beautiful scene of that whole episode. And this is where they make this very personal to Gloria, and I'm assuming to all women.

spk_1:   31:48
Yeah, and it can draw. It does draw. Parallels are contemporary moment without feeling cheesy because it's so rooted in that time and shows us, um, how far we have not come in some sense, which is, I think, a contemporary conversation about how far the second wave feminism go. So seeing that in tandem with them, trying to politically strategize, which I think so much of Episode two it was setting us up for for the future of the show, tryingto politically strategize amongst themselves. And sometimes, you know, fighting amongst themselves to make sure they're making the right decisions for the greater good of quotable women has its cats has his limitations.

spk_0:   32:32
Yeah, it's, um it's a very good scene. And what

spk_1:   32:36
did you think

spk_0:   32:36
of Rose Byrne as Gloria Steinem? I have to say at the beginning, I was like, Why is she whispering? Why she's so low key? But then I read on Gloria, and apparently it's spot on. That's how Gloria Steinem talks. So she's apparently doing a great, great spot on goriest. I know. What do

spk_1:   32:56
you think

spk_0:   32:57
of the performance?

spk_1:   32:58
I really like the forest. I love the way. So all up costumes, Baby. I love this wig. Little tease, a little bump in the back, But glasses. I'm so into it. The little invested, everything. I really like it. And, yeah, I was like her boyfriend play. Is this? No, she talks, but I also think that it works so well with, like, her character. And like she was like, I don't know politics. I don't know the particulars of this done. Third, I just know I really care about this being, and I'm willing to put my face and do press conferences and speak if that'll get us from point A to point B. So it's really interesting. I was gonna say I feel like she's being set up as kind of a sacrificial lamb.

spk_0:   33:34
Tell me more about that,

spk_1:   33:35
you know, especially talked about like her. The way she speaks isn't very confrontational. Isn't you know, as a successor? I have to yell because I'm not pretty right? I want to be hurt. Gloria doesn't have to do those things right. She can speak in a way, and this like this. You know, people take our work. But also seeing after free Dan says that she's not a leader and then seeing freed in on the plane and kind of deferring to her, never write standing up. There is even a line about her, like being neutral, trying to play the middle. I think it kind of is exposing her is kind of either one. She's gonna be kind of sacrificial to the woman's movement because she hasn't taken a hard stance on anything or that she isn't a strong political leader. Although she was ever really out to be a political leader to be fair to her. But you know, the show is portraying history as it happens, more or less. And yeah, I think we're there kind of setting her up to show that, like maybe her best qualities and what she could bring to the movement was her ability to be a spokeswoman in itself and an a publisher and someone who could speak in public forums. But not necessarily this, like, political mastermind. And so when she's kind of nominated, if you want, it feels like the beginning of a kind of slow descent in the political arena.

spk_0:   34:55
Yeah. Yeah. And we're gonna find out because the next episode she loses a big battle. So stay tuned. Let's look about J. Ellis gives J. Ellis. Are you a fan of insecure?

spk_1:   35:11
Yes. When I when I was in college, I used to watch it a lot more consistently. I'm a fan of jail. This is an actor. I saw that movie that he was an escape room, which I'm going on, Lee. A handful of people. So I saw it in the movie theaters Look atyou. That's what my man, I'm just kidding. But yes, I do. I am a fan of his acting work. And I do think it's interesting when I was watching this, how he's kind of breaking out of being Lawrence from. It's kind of what he's known for, but I think it's interesting that he's doing so playing someone else's boyfriend.

spk_0:   35:44
Yeah, and I have to say he has not shown his posterior on Mrs America like he does in almost every episode of It's Secure. So J. Ellis, you've got some explaining to do.

spk_1:   35:57
I'm so curious about what I want to know more about him. I don't want to look up information about the real guy. Little innocents don't spoil the future of the show. So I've been China like pick and choose how I read up on certain historical aspects of the show because I don't know which makes it more interesting for me to watch an outback. Check it later. But just like that little line and he's like, I can come over to mate, but I have to put the kids first thing in the morning. Like, who is this man?

spk_0:   36:23
Yeah, I mean, he has kids, but he asked her to marry him so he must be single

spk_1:   36:28
right So I'm like, What's kind of going on? Is this like for me? What we're so much of Gloria's kind of characterization is that she kind of doesn't have a husband, is sidestepping, you know, even better dances. Oh, you know, she's a single woman. So it shows that you can have a successful life and not have been married, which feels like a very underhanded compliment, right? It's not much of a compliment.

spk_0:   36:50
It's an underhanded company. But to me, that's what I know Gloria Steinem for like she is. She's always been single

spk_1:   36:56
because if she married this man and why she did this man, knowing that she was to marry this man should be thrown immediately into domesticity immediately. So it's like, Where is this going?

spk_0:   37:08
And one of the things that I love the bat Rose Byrne's performance is in that scene where he proposes to her and you see on her face that she is telegraphing tow us. Oh, I'm never gonna marry this man, even though I love it.

spk_1:   37:23
Maybe this is the side conversation, but I love see you supportive man. And I love and we see this later. You know, show a Children's Huntsman. But I'm how she's anticipate, enjoyed McGovern calling, and so they kind of make a deal that they can spend the night together. But it has to be in that room. In the moment of the phone rings, everything has to come to an end, you know, because she has business to handle a really okay with that or when she Ms magazine, you know, on the late night, like typing up to Clack and getting that issue ready and he brings take up. And he's reading her mother's interview to make sure, like, you know, she hasn't said anything bad or so Gloria is aware of it. Or like he's like Wonder Woman Cool, you know, and I just really, I think maybe that's built in so that you do kind of build some hope for them as a couple. But I love that I don't feel like we always see something, but we always get. And maybe that's why Chisholm and her husband are there to kind of counterbalance that. That narrative is that really powerful women cannot find men that love them because they have all these other priorities and concerns that come at the expense of their relationship, which is often built on patriarchy, right? Like the ministers to lead the minister also and no, this very prominent them. This is loved. And it's in a loving relationship

spk_0:   38:46
with a hot J. Ellis

spk_1:   38:48
for very gorgeous black man like, how are you? And if I can't do that, All right, well, I'll bring take out of the office and we'll figure that out later. But, like, I want to support you in this moment.

spk_0:   39:00
Yeah, yeah, I love what you said about that. I think it's great, and it is one of the things that you know. It builds this relationship between them, and it makes it what I was talking about earlier, like when they cut to Rose Byrne. And it's her face that you see that she loves him, but she knows. Probably she can't marry him, right, cause of politics, which is unfortunate. So which is also again, another way to show us what the party Archie does, because if she was a match to it and think twice

spk_1:   39:35
exactly. But it is. But it's interesting how the show does not address, but he's black,

spk_0:   39:43
not at all. Yes, and so we are putting the show on notice about race. We talked a couple of things already. L s and the women who work in her home and now Gloria and her boyfriend. So so far, they they've showed us black people, but they haven't addressed race. Shall we move to episode three and Charlie?

spk_1:   40:09
Yes, because I think that that kind of brings racing

spk_0:   40:20
and yeah, So Episode three is titled Charlie, and it's about Charlie Chisholm and her 1972 historic run for president. And it takes place in Miami at the Democratic convention in the summer of 72. At the point where the episode starts, she has gotten less than 1% of the delegates or very little of the Dynamo. Sure of the exact number, but very little. But she is adamant that she wants to go to the convention and try to get more delegates who doesn't want to concede because that's where she would get more power and influence. What's happening. I like that. That that's the sort of ceases of the episode is where does the power come from? Shirley is very clear about where her power comes from, and that puts her in opposition to Bella as bug and even to Gloria.

spk_1:   41:15
Yeah, which is really interesting because surely problem has the most political experience out of all of them, but is constantly being made to defer or a 100 defer to their expertise were people. And I hope people use this show as a way of kind of, because so much of church Islam's legacy is that she ran for president as a black woman excites me too, right? But also a big part of our legacy is that she fought really hard for a four black people, women, poor people and where all those intensities intersect. The welfare reform is a congresswoman or, you know, voting us here and built allow for certain public numb programs for people who need governmental assistance, Right? I'm not a politician, but that is

spk_0:   41:56
her legacy. Yes,

spk_1:   41:58
right? And so what I really liked is that when she's like, this is the power. If I have a delicate I can wield the power to say recover. No, you have to have welfare on your platform. Yes, you know. And so she really is running for the greater good of the people. Not just so they can imagine a future in which she could be president. They can imagine a future with people like her in the community, comes from get a say in legislation and that seems to kind of be going over suffer like Flo Kennedy, who meets mash eso canopy of like, perfect casting. I love it. Oh,

spk_0:   42:32
delicious is full. Kennedy.

spk_1:   42:34
Yeah, I love so much is like she that seems to be going over their heads because they're so stuck in tow like we need thio be on the government side. We cannot mess up her political ally ship, but at the cost of the expense of this black woman.

spk_0:   42:51
Yeah, what it shows This is that white feminists basically stiff Chisholm and as Bug and Steinem go behind her back and make a deal with McGovern and McGovern's people that completely undercuts her. And then she is backed into a corner, and she just has to concede while she's been trying to tell them until the guy from the Black caucus until her husband, until everybody who would listen that the only way you can affect real change is if you have power once you can see to your power, then you can affect any changes. People just take advantage of you. And I love that. That was the C. C's of this episode. You only get power by holding onto power, which Phyllis understands,

spk_1:   43:36
right? And that's what they seemingly lack. Understanding. Grow even for me to kind of trust his white man with this black woman, right? That's essentially what it comes down to, right? They trust me, govern that trust is his people, his advisers who ever talking to them, they're cutting deals with they trust him or because he seemingly has more power, more access there, being a white, you know, the white male candidate that keeps coming up in the episode Onley. Too often we shoot themselves in the foot by annoying that but the council and the advice of a black woman who has been in the trenches for years, which, to me, really echoes the kind of sentiment during the last election when people were coming out and we're like, Oh, black men were right. Yeah, but it has been done. Yeah, and also speaks to the lack of power, lack of power Blackman have or had at that time in that. You know, everybody when in America could have wanted to show you just wouldn't have been enough, right? And so But I have democracy amongst the black people is not the same as it is amongst white who align themselves with the power white men to get what they want. Where's black? Women don't have that privilege or capability. And I think this episode really kind of exposes that.

spk_0:   44:51
And Shirley Chisholm has to prove from herself twice as a black person and as a woman

spk_1:   44:58
I thought was interesting. Her, uh, the role of surveillance in this

spk_0:   45:03
episode. I know. I always think the FBI is listening to me all the time. I don't

spk_1:   45:08
know right now that we need to watch this show. Yeah, they're totally listening for me. You know, Cointelpro was really it was a real thing with a lot of black political groups and seventies and still we saw a black lives matter right where essentially the FBI's listening in and planting people to undermine the political power and reached before gaining and undermine on the ground movements and stuff like that. And so when asked, Bug is like, you know, she got the endorsement of the Black Panther Party. Her her campaign is a joke to me that was so hurtful. And show that as bugs, other white farmers had no clue. Yeah, what was happening on the ground? Like the true ethos of the Black Panther Party, which was predominately one run by black women during your tight and had, you know, free breakfast programs, right? I mean, they weren't thieves like militants. You know, I think that there's a dominant narrative at that time. And then there's what was actually happening. And I think that, you know, Chisholm was including. She knew. I need these people. They're doing what with free breakfast program. That's what I stand for as a can't the congresswoman. And so it should also shows me like white feminists on inability to kind of educate themselves on what was going on in these other communities. And I think that their unwillingness to see beyond their own noses it's what Fuck. Um,

spk_0:   46:28
this is kind of why I think this episode is this. The strongest episode of the story so far is because it shows the fissures in all these movements, right? Like these women are supposed to be working together, but they can't help it undermine each other and undermine surely, you know and then get undermined themselves by the white men in this case represented my McGovern. It just goes back to exactly what Phyllis has done in the first episode, which is like she can on Lee Lord, her power over those who are below her or have less power.

spk_1:   47:04
Yeah, it's funny, too, because you also see an Episode three how they kind of took their eyes off the ball, which, lastly, and that's when she starts really taking a momentum.

spk_0:   47:15
So at this point, if we're going back to Phyllis, what she's doing is that she's going national. So the e. R. A. Started getting gratified. And in the second episode, the surely episode, What we missed about what Phyllis was up to is that she managed to defeat the ratification of the E. R. A. In her home state of Illinois. And in this third episode, now she's going national. She is gathering all the women in her mailing list to ST Louis to meet in a hotel and organize and and tried to defeat the E. R. A. Ratification and there in that scene. And this is where race comes again. And this is some of the women that she's working with who are, as she calls them, good organizer's from Arizona, from Louisiana, from Texas. Start using racially charged language saying that you know, they're gonna They're gonna integrate the sex is just like they integrated the races and they're obviously opposed to that. And that doesn't sit well with the syrup wholesome character. And she tells Phyllis about it and and asks Phyllis to take a strong stand. She's like, Expel them. She's like, but they're good organizer's And they have. She's like, Yes, they're powerful. She's like, Yes, all the more you have to do it now because then you show other people that they can't go there, which is the same thing that the show does. This parallels which, which is good. It makes for a good drama. So this is the same thing that sort of surely was saying, You have to hold on to your power. You have to show the only way to gain powers, show that you have power. So, Alice shelter that. But then Phyllis doesn't do that. So Phyllis actually puts Alice on the spot, makes her call out this woman, these women. And when these women get mad and they say We're leaving immediately seizes the opportunity and makes all these racist women had of her group in whatever state they are and gives Alice a little bit of a consolation prizes like, Oh, I owe it all to Alice who brought this to me in the first. So she's manipulating everyone and this is its saints. It's a callback that that scene in Goldwater, where she sees things spiraling out of her control and she's manipulating situation to her benefit.

spk_1:   49:34
I don't remember that was ever say what these women are saying is wrong. It became an Alice doesn't even even if it's a matter of language.

spk_0:   49:43
Yeah, yeah, it's just the language thing. Yes, that's a very good distinction.

spk_1:   49:48
Yes, it's not that they're wrong. Is that the language they're using? Put us in a position where we won't be taken seriously or we'll give the feminists I'm gonna poke holes in the argument about. And so it's strategy, if not necessarily lack of, ah, racist thinking person. Uh, which I'm happy that the show makes that distinction, right? Because, you know, they could have had this moment where it's all a lie, and even Alice says, You know, I don't agree with that. But there's never that moment. I'm really kind of happy about that. And I think it also explode. Exposes the class issues within the stop your movement, right? Because when the women get up from the table, they're like, you can keep your fancy dinners and you know, the clearly not is, you know well to do with Phyllis and the other housewives from Illinois. You can keep this shit because in Louisiana, you know where this way and we do things this way and we speak our friends and why was started ilk and we don't need you. We can organize on our own. And so to save the kind of schism in the party, I guess you could say, you know, she's been kind of a well, you could be a leader, and you could be like you said, throwing Alice under the bus. But yeah, I think it's really interesting how they're kind of like let's pack the racism away from now because it was like because they really do feel I mean in the show exposed that right? We know Phyllis doesn't necessarily care for her help. Um,

spk_0:   51:19
not at all.

spk_1:   51:20
Never has expressed in any sentimental value towards them. You know, we see it later on. And at the end of Episode three with the cans, the canned goods, Well, if you want, you can take them very, you know? Yeah, Dismissive. But she's always dismissive. Yes, she is. And and her maid and also watch a show him on TV that moment when you can see the kind of camaraderie and sense of self that she's coming into her own and that she's kind of identifying that her issues is a woman is much different than Schlafly's or other kind of white feminists. Leaders.

spk_0:   51:55
Yeah, I mean, the show does do this contrast, but I feel like I'm hoping that they will dig deeper into the race question because Phyllis does not get to the power that she gets in without being completely racist.

spk_1:   52:11
Are of course. I mean, come on e I stuff, and also Phyllis gonna let even though she does kind of Russia, I think losing Mary Frances or something off the podium when she's like, you know, this is like integration. I think that, you know, had I was not kind of pushed her a little bit. If you let us live, I think she would have just let this woman say what she wanted to say Unless she's so. I'm gonna go there that she kind of saw that three steps ahead and through, You know, Alice under the bus. But it'll be interesting to see kind of hours of walls there. But as we go on during the show, No. I look up from an episode three to that moment. The Harvard Law School moment.

spk_0:   53:00
Oh, yeah. They're jealous about that moment. Set it up.

spk_1:   53:04
Essentially, the list has kind of been called out by two women who support the aria on the floor about her lack of kind of education around congressional law exploiting these women by making them believe these things. But it's all lies. And so she goes to talk to her husband later and she goes like, You know, you're not the only person who wouldn't want to Harvard Law school, like, you know, I went toe school and I study law and my confessor, but I was so brilliant that I should apply. So, like, explained to me a lot of legal procedure. And he's like, Whoa, when you say things, you can not to say anything that can be verified this false, For example, if you got your masses in 1945 and then we're meant to go to Harvard right after that would be five years before you know Harvard Law School became coed. Yeah, and kind of chuckle that she goes well, they would have made an exception for me. That, to me embodies exactly who Phyllis Schlafly is. And with the white woman of her oak are they deem themselves exceptional and not like other women. And so therefore she lacks the ability, even with all she has gone through in the show, even with being her husband, forcing himself upon her with being made to be a joke. A lot of the time in the study with all men feel that she is an exception. Yeah, she believes

spk_0:   54:24
it. Absolutely. Before we move on, is there anything else about Charlie? Did you wantto talk about Charlie's husband?

spk_1:   54:30
I was such a sucker for love and romance. I love them. I love when she has that. My first I love I love Liuzzo. Duba. I'm sorry was I would do with my son your name up. I love you and I love her performance. I think she gets the mannerisms down on the way. Yeah, like the hand movements and hand gestures without going so far that she cheapens the performance, for example, like Show the Chosen very fit And if we had a list, but she doesn't make that in any way. So she kind of brings her own kind of freshness to this portrayal of show, which I really like.

spk_0:   55:07
She's great. I loved her, too, and this is sort of Rose. Byrne looks so much like like Gloria Steinem, but who's who doesn't look that much like Charlie's Chisolm, but she gets her soul. It's I love it. She was a great performance.

spk_1:   55:21
She really embodies, kind of would meet her Shirley Chisholm and also kind of what made her so easy to. Or because, of course, at her time, someone thought it's preposterous that a black woman could be president, and she believes so firmly in that if she kind of shows with every kind of actors decision she makes with every move she makes that she believes she should hold the highest office in the land. So much of that comes in the body. You know, in the confidence that that confidence on a group of people when speaking, and so when her husband, you know, she's explaining to her husband like they don't believe in me, right? Like they how could how could they not? I'm the only person that really thinks that the president, United States, could be a black woman, and she kind of looked a little bit. And he's like, Baby, I believe it to be weird about it, Just like that. It's so cute and just like it's not just the minister low. I think it's cute, but you know what I mean. It's like like the idea and touching others before a man standing by a very powerful woman and a woman who believes that she can do anything. She could hold the highest office in the land as a block. Oh man.

spk_0:   56:33
And maybe that's because this show is written and directed by women. And maybe women can see that, um, that that can happen because I'm sure it happens in real life.

spk_1:   56:42
I love all of it. I love yeah, when she thinks that she's being surveilled to become like Great Hotel Room and she moves it over and she goes, My name is surely prison Just when I'm running for president. United States, you know you. But she's speaking to whatever's on the other side, and this is surveilling her like, Don't you forget it. And my heart kind of broke for her when she ended up being right.

spk_0:   57:03
Yes, concede,

spk_1:   57:06
Yeah, I'm like, but she was right, right? Like when they all go to get to the floor and it's like they're gonna vote on abortion and suddenly that's not the case. It's kind of been pulled from underneath them and she talks to Gloria. She's like, I told you this would happen.

spk_0:   57:21
The abortion scene, The abortion vote seen on the floor of the Democratic National Convention is maybe my favorite scene, just from a direct Olya perspective. So one of the things is that this show is directed by movie director. So the 1st 2 episodes, where directed by Anna Boldin and Ryan Fleck, who directed Half Nelson and Captain Marvel and this third episode is directed by Ah Musante from Belle and the United Kingdom. And what of the things that you know? The show isn't is mostly interiors. It's mostly about these characters interacting. So obviously, the actors, our the interest here and the actors are the strongest suit of this show because they bring these characters to live. And I was looking for this show. Is this pedigree? I was waiting for a scene where this show rises above like the usual TV show and shows me like there is a director with a vision behind it. And I think that scene that we were just talking about it. The Democratic National Committee in the abortion vote. That's where that pop to me because it's a huge scene, right? It's a huge area there. It's a huge crowd scene. There are so many characters in it and so many different priorities for the characters, and the camera moves really well to show us what happens in a convention floor. And that's where I was like, Oh, this show is better than your average TV show.

spk_1:   58:48
I felt that way actually to during the and this also speaks to what you're saying about like he's big. Kind of, uh, so much of the show is the 1 to 1 interaction and big moment in episodes, too. With the Guggenheim. I really like how that was directed. I really like how you know, we're in this really big space, and the director seemingly uses all of this space. So we get the big overhead shot from above, get the kind of stairwell we get, the 1 to 1 walking up. We get the dancing on the dance floor, which I really liked. And also it's a very small seed. But I really like when that black woman and her daughter, Kim magazine, are imagine she was gonna be working there are writing there because you're trying to get her desk in the showcase. Tended wait. Children in daycare was integrated into the publications offices, which are their beliefs and devious. And I wish I would have felt just a little bit more of that. Um, I wonder if they're also gonna talk about Ms. Magazine is kind of a platform for black women writers. Speaking of race, um, Alice Walker kind of famously road at the magazine and roll her essay. I believe about Zora Neale Hurston rediscovering Zorn of Carson's cannon in that magazine.

spk_0:   1:0:04
I hope they do. Yeah, I do.

spk_1:   1:0:06
Could be a cute little, you know, cameo or something. I don't know. You know, I'm not. I'm sorry for showing another director, but it would just be a nice, like, you know, not just history,

spk_0:   1:0:29
Taylor. This is Sunday's escape, Kate slash podcast. So we have to talk about caves performance. And so tell me in these three episodes, we talked a little bit about some of her scenes. But is there a moment that we haven't talked about yet? That you felt like, Oh, I love this performance.

spk_1:   1:0:47
I think I brought it up, but I think the harm in law moments so strong, you know what I mean? Yeah. The way she's like they would have made an exception for me is like, the way it said is that you know, she believes it. But you also in her heart of hearts, like she knows she doesn't deserve simply something that absurd. Yeah. You know, she's not that smart or that excellent on that. You have been saying that they would have made an exception for her. I also think the moment when she is on the floor and she's walking up the steps or she's in Washington. Rather, she's wanted to stuff her husband, and she's like, you know, making himself small again. Oh, I know you're the expert. It's not me, you know what I mean Or is she tested? Boosters Eagle, back up being like you're my secret weapon when in reality we know she doesn't really need him and have been doing nearly everything without his support. What I

spk_0:   1:1:38
loved about the performance is old. The little moments when Phyllis is thinking in those situations that we talked about where she looks around and realizes what's happening and then turns manipulate the situation to her benefit, and you can see Kate showing us what Phyllis is thinking. And those little gnome is just before she says something. We're just before she acts some way are what I liked about the performance. What I loved about the performance is that even though she's playing this woman and she is humanizing her, and there is that actors empathy that come from portraying, you know, a villain or whoever it is, even if you don't agree with them there is that, and you can see it that she's definitely humanizing Schlafly. But also there is what you were talking about in that scene with her husband about Harvard. There's that sly commentary and where she drops it just a little bit to show us that this woman is maybe not that smart This woman may be, is in a little bit over her hat. Make this woman maybe does not see what you should see. So there is a little bit of sly commentary from the actor on the character, which is what you don't get with most actors.

spk_1:   1:3:01
Also, like the moments in which you can see she's shaken up doesn't really lose her confidence here. But you can see kind of in her shoulders and her body language that she is, you know, in the moment when they're trying to figure out what they should be called, and she's like we should be called the slap in the Eagles Jacket Scout troop at another woman in the group goes, Well, we should vote on right, which I mean seems practical is a democracy as long it's supposed to be a democracy, at least, right? If They're kind of throwing the sentiments of the patriotism that they uphold. And she goes with me boat, me, little, every little thing. It's gonna be a problem because he wants to be the slack with you. What was it like? I want to be authoritarian. And so she says, with the almost confidence like we shouldn't vote, you know, if we vote on everything is kind of few. Tyler, we're not gonna make any progress. But you could tell her body language that she's kind of shaken up that these women, who she's seemingly believed to have empowered, are now using scent power to challenge her and to challenge the way things should go. I said that moment really, to me also kind of sets the tone about the relationship that will exist amongst the woman in the group. We kind of see Alice coming to power, coming to distance itself a little bit more when she's like, Oh, maybe, right, You know, um and ultimately I think that'll that'll serve as a point of contention amongst the women. But I really like how Kate Blanchett is able to kind of used her body as a means of showcasing that she wants to kind of hold on to power, and she wants to be the woman in charge, and she doesn't really care about their input. But she does, because only see, um, Theo Carver's men say to her, You know those women every week they bring hundreds of women with them, and you you have brought no one like you have to bring these women here and the way she uses the bread making, you know, her speaking. You're kind of favorite moments where we see her thinking when she kind of has that eureka moment about Oh, if they bake bread and bring it on the floor, yeah, we'll get some traction, which is so interesting because that's later Alice reads in a note that the she gets a note from supported. Was I Actually I don't care what happens with this. Damn, you are a fake. I just want banana bread next time.

spk_0:   1:5:16
Yeah, this is where the experience of a powerful actor like Kate comes. She knows when to stop the action, to show us a little bit more of the character and to show us an actor acting. I love actors when they're acting I don't want subtle of all time. I need you sometimes to do a gesture to telegraph things for me, because this is why I enjoy watching actors. And Kate is always someone who does that, who she serves us these things. And she does that in all these moments that we were talking about, The other thing I wanted to ask you about are the costume. So it's very funny when you do a show from the 19 seventies. I think it's a fun job for the costume designer because they have a lot of things to go to. But also it's such a fine line of doing customs that will work for us as a modern audience and will also be true to what people wore there. And one of the things that I love about the costume so far is that there is. So when she goes to Washington, she wears the pink suit was address, which is in contrast to what the feminists are wearing, and they even comment on it till it's in the script. He's like, Oh, no, it's not pink. It's dusty Rose

spk_1:   1:6:31
on exactly. Phyllis would

spk_0:   1:6:34
wear a pink dress with the jacket to show her power and to show her femininity. So those little things about the costumes is what I like. What, what are some of the things you enjoy it or didn't enjoy about the costumes?

spk_1:   1:6:46
What I love is that there's like, two main things, one I love when Phyllis is working out her business casual, which says a lot about her kind of needing to be feminine at all moments, right? Yeah, I love when she hands her skirt over the star Poulsen's character to Alice. Excuse me. I also love that looking at the clothing and looks so well made right, in contrast with the kind of fast fashion that we kind of wear specifically, like Shirley Chisholm's outfits are so well tailored. And so it just looks so comfortable and so fit in them. And I think that also speaks to as someone who was like, I'm a black man running for president. She has to be spiffy at all times just to look good. She has toe look, the part, and I really like that. You could tell there was a consideration about tailoring. There's a consideration about how surely would look. In contrast, to someone like Gloria, who has a much more kind of freewheeling style of dress. Where's pants? A lot more often. So the women who are kind of constantly in the midst of the political sphere. You know, Chisholm and Schlafly are constantly wearing skirts, dresses, very hyper feminine outfits. Our outfits like power. It's like business casual, like, you know, then there have meetings and you know that they will Jack, and then you take the jacket off. Then they put it back. Oh, you know, versus the women who were kind of trying to get the political power. Don't dress that way. And I'm very they're not willing to compromise, which I also think speaks a lot about their kind of platforms and what they believe. And I and I like that, and I like how the costuming comes in hand for the scene where the women in that e. R. A. R. Walking up the staircase and the kind of feminist women are walking up the other side of this, their case to, um, go to the congressional floor, I guess, and you see the complete difference in like hair jeans, a lot of them wearing jeans and pants voices like the We have the close up shots of old like shoes that the housewives are wearing, and they're like kitten heels and things like that. They're like, not comfortable outfits at all. See, I like how the costuming is like built into the story, like you said, in a way, to show things without being so Had he handed,

spk_0:   1:8:57
You know, the costume designer is being a day Glor who actually started working with federal, not of our. So she has a long career and she's done a lot of movies, including Milan, which was the last thing she did before Mrs America. But what I loved the also had the costume. Is that what Shirley Chisholm War to the Democratic National Convention is not something that she can't do. She has to make the dress the Chisholm War, but also you. You get that. But also you get like in the other intimate moments that were not documented, you get like, yes, these other costumes. Same was Phyllis same with Gloria. Same with all the characters. Yes, they would wear that thing. So there is a consistency from what is documented toe. What is more in the intimate moments.

spk_1:   1:9:43
Also, there's, like also, like, moments where I was like Okay, well, we're not like and we're gonna I'm seeing when as because we're in a patent leather trench coat

spk_0:   1:9:56
and I love what she did was low. Kennedy to flow looks great, and the sea is so funny in that in that it looks great.

spk_1:   1:10:03
Yes, the hat to the buttons on them. It feels so true, too. She's very true and honest to the historical figures and what they would have worn

spk_0:   1:10:12
a good job. Vanity, Glor on the costume so far, we loved them. Dab. Euler, who's the creative writer of the show, is well known for being on the writing staff of Mad Men. So this is another show that was set in around the same time that where this is America set. So did you feel that the show's sort of transported that's successfully to the early seventies?

spk_1:   1:10:36
Yeah, I was actually going to say, if we're to bring up madman, which I don't know if it's necessarily fair, but there is a connection like fire period piece that also she has worked on the world of madmen, felt a little more organic

spk_0:   1:10:51
because there were fictional characters. And maybe she's a little more constrained here.

spk_1:   1:10:57
Yeah, like you know, there are. Listen, when you're dealing with historical figure, is there someone right now that is watching? In fact, checking every aspect of this show, which is completely understandable in this failure, didn't with people's realize stories. And for a lot of people, this is their entryway into these figures. But I also wonder two of us less to do with the writing on the costuming and more about how things were shot for television is, you know, and you're seeing a very h d a seventies. You know, that's true. Yes, like things, a shocker TV. But there's not much wiggle room for like, you know, putting filtering is on it are making it look a certain way. I mean, it has to, and I wonder if that has a lot to do with it. I also think that when we were out kind of Ms magazine offices, we know where in the city because we see the cards like 60 seventies stuff that's been set up. But if that was in a wider shot of the street would immediately know that is not the seventies. So I think that they're doing the best they can, probably what they have. And the show was

spk_0:   1:11:59
shot in Toronto, so I don't know the exteriors. Maybe they went to those other cities, but most of it was shot in Toronto.

spk_1:   1:12:06
Oh, wow.

spk_0:   1:12:07
Yeah. I mean, Toronto always acts like surrogate for New York when you don't have a CZ much money as usual when you're not Scorsese,

spk_1:   1:12:16
that's true. The other. I

spk_0:   1:12:19
thought the writing was a little bit on the nose. Sometimes in like, Oh, look at this. I'll give you one example. So when Phyllis goes on the Phil Donahue show and she just opposes these things that are not facts it she just makes things up. And she's like, they're gonna Women are gonna be in foxholes. And I felt that that was a little too on the nose is like, Oh, this is exactly what Trump does on TV every time. And it doesn't make it wrong. Phyllis did that, and Trump is doing that and they're playing from from the same playbook. But I wish it wasn't. It was just a little bit more subtle, like I think the audience is smart to recognize the parallels. You don't need to feed it to me as much as it's fed in in some of the scenes. A lot of the show is very smart about drawing the disparity in power between people or how people wield power. A lot of things it's very smart about. But I think sometimes it just it's like, Oh, you need to recognize this Murtada as the parallel to 2020.

spk_1:   1:13:21
Oh, yeah, And also I think that I think that probably has to do with a lot of people feel like the responsibility of an artist is to kind of make work that reflects the times, even when it's a period. He's especially because these things were so loud and in our face the kind of lineage the Republicans have as kind of sounding the alarm and explaining this kind of fear and people that the normal be disrupted. Yeah, you see, I think I think a lot of shows do that, though. Yeah, so many shows do that. And I think maybe this show less so interesting. Yeah, a little less so. But then also because these things that I think is also the line to wear like these things are so pervasive in our history that it's like it's really hard to find the line where it's like I want to include this thing. But I don't want it to be this heavy handed kind of commentary on where we are now. And I think the most part throughout the three episodes and do a good job of trying toe told that line. So, yeah, I think I'm gonna take it overboard, but they

spk_0:   1:14:23
don't and I'm interested in this show. I enjoying it so far. I'm definitely wanna watch more. I'm interested in to see a lot of what's gonna happen, somebody we haven't talked about. And this is what I'm interested to see more of is an actor. I love Melanie Lynskey, who pays Rose Thompson, the Illinois chapter head of the Stop G R. A. So I'm excited to see her and what that character is going to do, and you mentioned you excited about Sarah Poulson, and we both want to see what they do is the race question. Is there anything else you're excited to see in the upcoming episodes?

spk_1:   1:15:04
I lost him or Flo Kennedy. I just love me. See, that's like, amazing match is crazy. So I really want to see how she is going to play a role, because obviously, I mean, it seems like inevitably, we're gonna get to the schism between black and white woman in the movement. I think that's kind of probably was being set up with, like, surely being stiffed. And so I want to see how she kinda navigates that being such a prominent figure on both sides. And I'm wondering if the show is the show gonna go all the way up to this isn't just 1972 or think the show

spk_0:   1:15:36
ends with the election of Ronald Reagan. So they're gonna go to 1980.

spk_1:   1:15:40
Oh, now really excited. Yeah. And I'm really excited that you're really interesting.

spk_0:   1:15:49
Yeah, it's exciting. So definitely watch. Misses America. We're gonna be watching. Yeah, I'll be talking about it. I wanted to ask you just a journal question about Cate Blanchett. Since this is a great bunch of podcast. What is your favorite Cate Blanchett performance

spk_1:   1:16:06
aviator? Oh, as Katharine Hepburn. I love her enough. I think that you think eventually think that the look which is like sweet I'm Golf Club that she's pulling her pants in our costume. You know, the hair. I mean, everything. Every part of her is being used in that performance and was also one of the worst performances. I was like, Oh, that's Cate Blanchett. Not just person, you know, It kind of for me, put it in my consciousness as an actress and an actress who was interesting and really good at her job and who I should check out. Um, especially because, like, you know, I'm pretty young. So, like, I didn't see her ascent. Yes. Yeah, you know, organically. So that was with Oh, okay. That's what this person is like. She's really good, you know? Yeah, she's great. And I thank you so much for having me on.

spk_0:   1:17:01
You're welcome. This was a joy. I appreciate you coming on the path cats. And before we go tell our listeners where they can find you and your work.

spk_1:   1:17:10
Okay. Um, my hose. Taylor Montague. I am on Twitter on instagram with the same at me, which is basically my name with no vowels. So t y l r m and T G. Um, Yeah. Give me a holler Hit me up and missile

spk_0:   1:17:30
and you can find me on Twitter at m E, Underscore says, and follow the podcast on Instagram and Twitter at Sunday's escaped and until next time, thank you for listening, and we will be back next week with the next episode of This Is America.