Working Hard to Prevent Burnout with Jo Hilder

00;00;01;09 - 00;00;27;02
Dave Quak 
Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being. As a pastor that struggles with mental illness, I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of life. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.

00;00;28;02 - 00;00;44;01
Dave Quak 
You guys are blessed that they are being excited about this chat. Since the podcast began and I've been waiting when was the right time to ask the one and only Joann Hilda to be on somebody's souls? And today is the day. So Jo, thank you so much.

00;00;44;03 - 00;00;57;05
Jo Hilder
You're more than welcome, Dave. It's a delight to be here. I've listened to all of your podcasts every Monday morning on my way to work, so I'm feeling a little bit intimidated and very excited to be here.

00;00;57;08 - 00;01;09;12
Dave Quak 
I'm thankful to you. I have all the respect and love for you, Joe, for the people listening. I've known Joe for a very long time. I got to do her wedding. So how long you been married?

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Jo Hilder
I think we're coming up. I think 14 years.

00;01;13;10 - 00;01;15;00
Dave Quak 
14 years?

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Jo Hilder
Yeah. And next month.

00;01;16;15 - 00;01;32;13
Dave Quak 
You know, your wedding was the first one I went to and wished that I'd had done that for my wedding. I can still remember. I remember how you danced down the aisle. You didn't just walk down the aisle like you proper groove down the aisle. The song escapes me, though. What was it again? Love, love me. Do. Yeah.

00;01;32;16 - 00;01;35;03
Dave Quak 
It was. Oh, it just came to.

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Jo Hilder
Yes. Well done.

00;01;36;03 - 00;01;43;28
Dave Quak 
So you danced down the aisle, I remember that. I remember you having the best morning tea. Like it was the best time, you know, was a brunch.

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Jo Hilder
Yeah. It was, it was delightful.

00;01;45;25 - 00;01;53;02
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And there was a certain boat experience that happened as part of the day. Joe, I want to tell the listeners what happened with the boat.

00;01;53;05 - 00;02;16;17
Jo Hilder
Look at the very end. We'd organized with the photographer that. Lena. I would go out on the boat and wave to everybody, and then we'll fall into the into the boat. So we have this epic photo of our 50 guests with their face, thinking this terrible accident was happening on our wedding day. That just, brings a smile to my face, just even thinking about that.

00;02;16;18 - 00;02;23;09
Dave Quak 
It's so cheeky. It's so you. And so we've been in your life when the babies came along to tell me about your babies.

00;02;23;09 - 00;02;35;07
Jo Hilder
Yeah. I've got two beautiful daughters who are ten and 12. So we've just started high school with the oldest, and it is not for the faint hearted, but so far everything's going okay.

00;02;35;07 - 00;02;41;25
Dave Quak 
That's good. And what about the best thing? Your husband Lee? Yes. He's such a good dude. Tell us about Lee.

00;02;41;28 - 00;03;08;24
Jo Hilder
Yes, they. Lee and I met at a silent retreat, and, I think I was in love with him from the moment I saw him. I, we were married about 18 months after we met. And, you know, it's. I think, you know, it's. Well, there's nothing better than having somebody on your team and somebody on your side.

00;03;08;28 - 00;03;14;08
Jo Hilder
And at the end of the day, you come home to that person. Yeah, it's it's it's special.

00;03;14;08 - 00;03;14;23
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

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Jo Hilder
Right.

00;03;15;11 - 00;03;27;21
Dave Quak 
Yeah. He's a beautiful man. I really like Lee. I think he's he's just the real deal. Like we literally. And this isn't making it up, but we literally just spent the last 20 minutes talking about his physicality. And so it's.

00;03;27;25 - 00;03;28;02
Jo Hilder
Like.

00;03;28;02 - 00;03;31;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah, like he just had a horrible time with his secretary and that's all.

00;03;31;02 - 00;03;33;01
Jo Hilder
But he's got a great story.

00;03;33;02 - 00;03;44;06
Dave Quak 
He's got such good stories and I think that's just such a blessing. Yeah. I lovely okay, so we're married and then where are we now? We're right in burley heads like you live in Burley.

00;03;44;08 - 00;04;06;12
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah. So we've, very, very lucky. I think once we got married, we were looking for somewhere to live and to buy a house. And we just found the cheapest three bedroom place on the market. And, you know, all these years later. What a blessing from God. Yeah, to have a secure housing.

00;04;06;15 - 00;04;15;02
Dave Quak 
Crazy. Especially in this climate. Yeah. So. So on the other day, I had to get a mortgage of 900 grand, a mortgage of 900 grand to get a three bedroom townhouse.

00;04;15;02 - 00;04;17;24
Jo Hilder
Yeah, make things increase in it. Yeah.

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Dave Quak 
It doesn't cost that much in essence, does it?

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Jo Hilder


00;04;20;19 - 00;04;24;05
Dave Quak 
Tell us about tell us about this. Rents, Joe.

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Jo Hilder
Esperance has the best beaches in Australia, I agree.

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Dave Quak 
Yes, I didn't I've got a pink lake.

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Jo Hilder
It's got a pink lake. Yep. The Lonely Planet for anybody who was backpacking Australia back in the day, saw a kangaroo on the beach. That photo was taken at lucky Bay, which is in Esperance. So, yeah, I'm a farmer's daughter. And, you know, when you're from, a regional area, you say you're from a town, but actually your farm was an hour and a half away.

00;04;53;24 - 00;04;55;29
Dave Quak 
So you an hour and a half away from Esperance.

00;04;56;01 - 00;05;17;23
Jo Hilder
Yeah, exactly. Wow. And so I went, because what I found was so far away, we had a local primary school. And when I say local, I think the school bus trip was an hour and a half. Yeah. But I had to go to boarding school in Esperance for my high school years. Well, and, I lived there until the week I turned 18.

00;05;17;25 - 00;05;23;01
Jo Hilder
And then as much as I loved Esperance, I could not wait to leave.

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Dave Quak 
Yeah, small town syndrome or.

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Jo Hilder
Yeah, absolutely. Small town. You know, there was there was only one way that you were going to live. And I think that all my family and my community hoped for me was that I would become a farmer's wife.

00;05;40;13 - 00;05;41;04
Dave Quak 
Okay.

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Jo Hilder
Which is a fine.

00;05;42;22 - 00;05;47;21
Dave Quak 
God bless the farmers wives, but not your dream. So what did you do then?

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Jo Hilder
I backpacked on and off for three years. Nice. I'd come back every year to work in the agricultural industry. Yes. Medulla. And then head off. So I was lucky enough to travel around Australia and New Zealand and Southeast Asia. Cool. And I ended I went to Canada for a bit, and I ended Mexico and Cuba. And then at the ripe old age of 21, I was ready to put traveling aside.

00;06;15;04 - 00;06;21;09
Jo Hilder
And I think I my plan was probably to move back to Australia and get married.

00;06;21;12 - 00;06;22;22
Dave Quak 
But not to a farmer in Esperance.

00;06;22;22 - 00;06;25;03
Jo Hilder
Not to a farmer in France.

00;06;25;05 - 00;06;46;03
Dave Quak 
Now, what we haven't spoken about yet is you're not just a Joanne a you're a doctor Joanne Hilder. Yes. So not a medical doctor but a PhD doctor. Yeah, a PhD doctor. I would take my hat off to anyone with a PhD because the process I mean, you hear stories of, you know, 1 or 2 out of every one.

00;06;46;03 - 00;06;53;20
Dave Quak 
I know they love their PhD, or at least love the process, but everyone else, I mean, what was the process like for you doing a PhD?

00;06;53;22 - 00;07;22;05
Jo Hilder
Well, I mean, it's hard work, right? But that's part of the reason why it's so good and part of the reason why it feels so good to have a PhD. You know, there's a saying sweeter after school. Yeah. And I've it feels so satisfying to have a PhD because of how difficult it is to to write that 80,000 word thesis.

00;07;22;09 - 00;07;23;08
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

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Jo Hilder
Yeah. And it also enables me to have, you know, work that I love to do now.

00;07;27;00 - 00;07;37;16
Dave Quak 
Yeah. You get to teach in universities. Yeah. Mentor people and and what's your PhD kind of around like, what would people glean from your PhD?

00;07;37;18 - 00;08;01;09
Jo Hilder
Yeah. So my PhD is in hospital social work, specifically in decision making. And if there was, newspaper headline for my thesis, it would be that the hospital is influencing how social workers prioritize their practice. And this should be of grave concern to social workers in Australia.

00;08;01;09 - 00;08;14;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah. It's so it's practical. It's actually got some application that you can look at and put into practice which is cool. So I think it's because there's some random ones. If you Google the most random PhD, they'll some crazy.

00;08;14;04 - 00;08;14;14
Jo Hilder
PhDs.

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Dave Quak 
Have.

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Jo Hilder
A place for everybody at the table.

00;08;18;06 - 00;08;26;29
Dave Quak 
There is there is. Now let's circle back to Esperance Local School. But it's an hour and a half away. What is your school an experience like?

00;08;27;01 - 00;08;53;08
Jo Hilder
I loved school so far as well. I loved boarding school and high school because I was with people, right? I was not an academic child and I was not. I was a very social child. So growing up on the farm where your nearest friends are five kilometer drive away, wasn't ideal for me saying that, you know, school was very difficult for me.

00;08;53;08 - 00;09;03;01
Jo Hilder
So I have dyslexia. Okay. And so, you know, reading and writing does not come naturally or easily. So yeah, it was very difficult.

00;09;03;04 - 00;09;11;11
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So you had dyslexia. I mean, fast forward a lot of years and you're a doctor, a lot must have happened in between. Yeah, you know that now.

00;09;11;14 - 00;09;30;01
Jo Hilder
Yeah. So I can remember when I was 15, back in way when you were in year ten, you had to choose if you were going to study and go to university or if you were just going to enter the workforce after high school. And the way that they got kids to do it is they gave you this really thick book.

00;09;30;01 - 00;09;52;14
Jo Hilder
This is obviously pre-internet HTML5. You have this really thick book, full of careers. And I searched through it and I remember going up to the guidance office there and I was like, oh, like social work. And he says, oh, look, you can't read and write well enough to finish year 12 English to go to university, maybe something else.

00;09;52;20 - 00;10;00;03
Jo Hilder
And I was like, oh, no worries. And I flick through and I'm like, bartending. And he's like, oh yeah, great.

00;10;00;05 - 00;10;01;21
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;10;01;23 - 00;10;26;07
Jo Hilder
And I think, you know, at that stage again, you know, everybody had just hoped I would get some sort of job before I married and became a mum and a wife. And so at the time I didn't didn't blink and I didn't think it was weird at all, okay, that the guidance officer wouldn't encourage me to further study.

00;10;26;09 - 00;10;58;16
Jo Hilder
I think I can remember, you know, three years later when I finished traveling and I thought, you know, I might go to Taif, and I saved myself $10,000 and I'd move to Brisbane and I'd signed up for a shirt. Three in Human Services at time, like six months of study. And I remember giving myself a pep talk of this might not work.

00;10;58;16 - 00;11;11;15
Jo Hilder
Maybe you can't read and write well enough, but give it a go, because at least you know, right? You've tried. And if it all fails, it's okay. You can go to Brazil. That was.

00;11;11;18 - 00;11;15;19
Dave Quak 
To Brazil. So it's like study or go to Brazil. There. The two options.

00;11;15;19 - 00;11;33;02
Jo Hilder
Exactly, exactly. I was like, you know, you'll be just fine. Just give it a go. And so I studied for, you know, six months and I got my cert three and they said, oh, you know, you can study a little bit longer. And I did my set for they were like, you know, you do another year you could have a diploma.

00;11;33;04 - 00;11;51;26
Jo Hilder
Oh, wow. So I got my tape diploma and I thought, oh, well, that's the end of my study now. I was lucky enough. I worked a little bit in a homeless shelter, and then I got this amazing job in the emergency department at the local hospital, working with people who were homeless. And I thought, amazing. Yeah, that's me done now.

00;11;51;29 - 00;11;55;00
Dave Quak 
And then what? Because it wasn't you done well.

00;11;55;02 - 00;12;19;25
Jo Hilder
And then I remember getting to the hospital and, you know, before then, I hadn't really met many people who'd gone to university. Yeah. And then I was at the hospital and everybody had degrees and degrees, and I had a lovely mentor. And she said, you know, with the type of diploma you can get your first year of, social science degree.

00;12;19;28 - 00;12;46;05
Jo Hilder
And I was like, oh, okay. And I gave myself the same pep talk. And I was like, you know, sign yourself up for university. It might be too difficult, but at least you know, this is your limit. And so I went up and I did, I've got a Bachelor of Social science, a graduate mental health, master's of social work qualifying.

00;12;46;05 - 00;13;09;09
Jo Hilder
And then I got the PhD in social work. Wow. And it was, you know, so satisfying to get the PhD in social work and reflect back that 20 years ago, I had wanted that and somebody had said, you know, you probably can't, can't have them.

00;13;09;12 - 00;13;10;04
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;13;10;07 - 00;13;11;16
Jo Hilder
You know, it is very satisfying.

00;13;11;17 - 00;13;14;26
Dave Quak 
It should be satisfying because it's amazing accomplishment. Yeah.

00;13;15;01 - 00;13;48;08
Jo Hilder
And I mean, I still can't read and write very well. I have, you know, so many strategies that I need to use. I have voice to text so I can read as or I can speak and my computer will write for me. Yeah. I've got, text to voice and my computer reads to me. I've got lots of other strategies, but also like, what a great testament to many of God to take this woman who can't read and write very well and put her in a career that is about reading and writing.

00;13;48;09 - 00;13;56;12
Dave Quak 
True. So true. And and to go and I did you give you a pep talk to yourself before every degree all the way up to PhD as well?

00;13;56;12 - 00;14;07;01
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah. I remember thinking the same thing. Maybe this is my limit. Like it's a big difference from going from writing 2000 word essays to a 80,000 word thesis.

00;14;07;01 - 00;14;07;20
Dave Quak 
That really is.

00;14;07;24 - 00;14;33;05
Jo Hilder
And I remember I had watched some documentary on people climbing Mount Everest, and not everybody makes the summit. And I was like, that's okay, maybe, maybe this is my summit, maybe this is as high as I can get. But how great that I know that that's my limit. Yeah. Right. And then of course how, how great it is to actually get to the summit and get.

00;14;33;05 - 00;14;34;22
Jo Hilder
Yeah, my PHC.

00;14;34;28 - 00;14;42;29
Dave Quak 
It's amazing because it actually maybe is no limit for you, Joe. Maybe I don't I mean, I don't even know what's next after a PhD when it comes to the academic track.

00;14;43;01 - 00;14;46;16
Jo Hilder
I don't know what's next. But we'll see.

00;14;46;16 - 00;15;10;15
Dave Quak 
We'll see. But I love hearing this story because it's it is really a story of victory. It's a story of overcoming, of persistence. Yeah. You know, in amongst all of that, you were doing your master's and, and stuff while raising fantastic children and being a loving wife and working and just going for it like a lot of tenacity and you energy, maybe that's the farmer in your farm has got to be tenacious.

00;15;10;17 - 00;15;31;03
Jo Hilder
Yeah. And also, you know, there's a joy in hard work. And I think I was lucky enough to recognize that early on, you know, and obviously now I have my own kids. I'm trying to teach them that there is a joy in setting a goal and working hard and achieving it.

00;15;31;06 - 00;15;41;20
Dave Quak 
Yeah. That's cool. So when you first, like we were told you had dyslexia, like how do you even explain how it would work in my scenario or for someone else who doesn't understand?

00;15;41;22 - 00;15;53;07
Jo Hilder
Yeah. So it's fairly individual. I read a paper recently that says 10% of the community has dyslexia. Yeah, I'm surprisingly 6% of doctors, 6%.

00;15;53;09 - 00;15;54;12
Dave Quak 
6% of doctors.

00;15;54;13 - 00;15;59;11
Jo Hilder
Like, I don't know how they spell all those complicated drugs and yeah, bones in the body.

00;15;59;11 - 00;16;01;11
Dave Quak 
Maybe that's why they're writing. Looks like it does.

00;16;01;11 - 00;16;02;03
Jo Hilder
Yeah.

00;16;02;05 - 00;16;03;25
Dave Quak 
Does your writing look like that now? You're about.

00;16;03;26 - 00;16;05;18
Jo Hilder
Oh yes. My writing is.

00;16;05;21 - 00;16;13;14
Dave Quak 
Okay. So not only medical doctors but doctors that happens to them to okay. So lots of percent have this dyslexia. Yeah.

00;16;13;14 - 00;16;39;13
Jo Hilder
It's fairly common with me. I think I was tested and diagnosed when I was maybe in year two, I would say. And so I can remember being in year oh, I think I was in year three and they were giving me work and you could see it was for year one student. And so, you know, I just really struggled with reading and writing.

00;16;39;19 - 00;17;08;26
Jo Hilder
And so that's why they decided my parents decided to get tested. So things that, for me and I possibly have dysgraphia as well, which means that comes out in fine motor skills. So my handwriting is fairly terrible as well. Okay. So, you know, imagining the whole or, you know, writing a whole paragraph, things like that, it comes out in different ways, but with the dyslexia.

00;17;08;28 - 00;17;31;13
Jo Hilder
I if I don't recognize the word, I can't decode the words. So I can read. But it takes a lot of focus and energy. And I think the worst thing that can happen is I don't know if anybody's had this experience, but, you know, when you like sitting in a, a Bible group or even.

00;17;31;13 - 00;17;52;00
Jo Hilder
I was at kids church last month and we're all going to go round and read a verse out of the Bible, and my mind starts panicking as I'm like, oh, here's this perfect opportunity for public humiliation. And it would I would be like, okay, so there's three people into my turn. That means I'm going to read the third verse down.

00;17;52;00 - 00;17;52;19
Dave Quak 
So you're practicing.

00;17;52;19 - 00;18;21;09
Jo Hilder
So I'm practicing. And then even though I practice and in my mind I know what those words are when I come to speak it out and to actually read it. It's not coming at clear. My heart rate's going. Yeah. I used to feel so much shame about it that I would never, like, even write a birthday card because, you know, even with my strategy of I would, I would hand write on a piece of paper what I'm going to write.

00;18;21;13 - 00;18;39;17
Jo Hilder
I would check all the spelling, I'd have it good. But then transferring that into the card, I still get letters mixed out. It would still look messy. Yeah. So that's how it comes with me is, you know, my spelling is atrocious. You know, my my reading is very, very difficult.

00;18;39;20 - 00;18;48;01
Dave Quak 
Well, that is complex and trying to deal with that while you're a great tool. That's hard man. Literally it should just be playing in the garden just.

00;18;48;08 - 00;18;48;21
Jo Hilder
Yeah.

00;18;48;22 - 00;18;57;05
Dave Quak 
Plucking flowers and stuff. And you're dealing with that. Did having that lead onto any of the like anxieties or anything like having to manage that?

00;18;57;08 - 00;19;22;01
Jo Hilder
Not so much because I in that weakness I developed other strengths. Yeah. And so I became and this is really common with people with dyslexia is they become excellent communicators and they become, you know, great at public speaking, great at relating and talking to people. So I was able to lean into those strengths.

00;19;22;01 - 00;19;22;29
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;19;23;02 - 00;19;30;12
Jo Hilder
And, you know, really hid the shame of my reading and writing. You know.

00;19;30;15 - 00;19;31;02
Dave Quak 


00;19;31;05 - 00;19;33;08
Jo Hilder
Hid that from everybody.

00;19;33;10 - 00;19;48;24
Dave Quak 
It's a it's an amazing story of overcoming because it's about, you know, your, overcoming of some mental health things. And also just like even living with dyslexia, as you know, this is about faith and mental health. Where does faith fit into all this for you?

00;19;48;27 - 00;20;14;23
Jo Hilder
For me, I have been really blessed that God has revealed what my purpose is. When you know, like, okay, this is what God's created me for it. It's like, oh, well, he's then going to give me everything I need to do that. And so, you know, having dyslexia, well, that's not going to get in the way of everything that what God is able to do.

00;20;14;23 - 00;20;51;05
Jo Hilder
And so that has helped also, God is ultimate comfort. And so when things are difficult or, you know, in those moments of panic and shame when I know I'm going to have to read out loud now I'm really confident and I just say, oh, actually, I'm not going to read, I have dyslexia, somebody else will go. And that confidence comes when you have a PhD and you know, nobody's going to think that I'm stupid or uninformed, intelligent because I have those degrees that say otherwise.

00;20;51;07 - 00;21;00;05
Jo Hilder
But I still think that to have a faith and to have a God that can provide comfort is something I'm very grateful for.

00;21;00;08 - 00;21;30;08
Dave Quak 
You are a woman of faith, too. You know, you did one thing in church once that scared me so much. Okay, so you were trying for a bubble. And at that time it wasn't an easy conception. And we were talking about praying for miracles and stuff. And you pulled a onesie out of your handbag. I mean women can carry a lot of stuff in their handbags, but I don't think a onesie is a normal like, you know, like a, a for a sleeping suit is the normal attire in a, in a bag.

00;21;30;08 - 00;21;41;22
Dave Quak 
But you did it because you were like, okay, I believe that God can fill this suit with a baby. Yeah. I don't know if I've misquoted you in this sense. Was it? And it was such a heavy and awesome moment.

00;21;41;22 - 00;22;11;20
Jo Hilder
Yeah. So we had two miscarriages and the first one hurt because I was young and I had never experienced grief like that. The second one hurt because I thought, oh no, what does this mean? What if I can't have kids? And they say, you know, by the time you've had your third miscarriage, that's when they really start to think, oh, maybe there's biologically something going on here.

00;22;11;22 - 00;22;12;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;22;12;02 - 00;22;32;04
Jo Hilder
And, you know, I guess I was feeling real bold in the faith that day. And I felt like God said, you know, to have this faith that I will have a baby. Yeah. And go and, you know, buy this onesie and pray over it. Looking back now, I think, oh, gosh, I don't know if I would have that boldness today.

00;22;32;06 - 00;22;33;13
Dave Quak 
So beautiful.

00;22;33;15 - 00;22;36;06
Jo Hilder
How good's God now I've got two beautiful.

00;22;36;06 - 00;22;55;02
Dave Quak 
Two amazing daughters. Like they have such cool kids. Yeah. They're so fun and cheeky and gifted and cheeky. I said that twice because they are so cheeky. Yeah, but that takes. That's faith in action, isn't it? Yeah. Like, what was it like for you when you went to wherever you went to buy that? Like, did you do that by yourself or did you go with Lee or.

00;22;55;04 - 00;23;26;28
Jo Hilder
I went by myself. Maybe a friend came with me. I just remember feeling terrified. All of those anxious, the hearts racing and the mind is like self-doubt, like a also, you know that all those thoughts like, am I just doing this to manipulate? And yeah, or what happens if I believe in this and I believe God's going to give me a baby and he doesn't he doesn't answer everybody's prayers and and then what?

00;23;27;00 - 00;23;36;25
Jo Hilder
Yeah. And so I remember feeling terrified and and all of that. And luckily you know, he didn't. So that prayer.

00;23;36;27 - 00;23;50;24
Dave Quak 
It is amazing. Hey, I mean, when you actually pulled it out, even though I'm, you know, we're friends, but I'm supposed to be a spiritual leader in that community, even me. I was like, dude, this is bull. You know what I mean? Like, it's like reading acts.

00;23;50;24 - 00;23;51;13
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah.

00;23;51;19 - 00;23;53;13
Dave Quak 
Like, oh, well, then she went there.

00;23;53;13 - 00;23;54;11
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah.

00;23;54;11 - 00;24;04;18
Dave Quak 
And paid off, I think. Yeah. Living for Jesus. Like, you know, he's been evidenced in your life. Isn't that wild. Yeah I love full on Jesus.

00;24;04;25 - 00;24;05;07
Jo Hilder
Yeah.

00;24;05;08 - 00;24;27;04
Dave Quak 
Joe how on earth did you keep it all together. Having babies, having Lee having a home to manage, working for some masters like you've always been someone I look to for advice and help with self-care. And you've helped me a lot. But I want to. I want to ask you, like, how do you manage yourself and not come to a place where you're empty or angry?

00;24;27;07 - 00;24;50;12
Dave Quak 
You know, we've known each other for 15 years, and I don't even reckon I've ever seen you go off at anyone or like, I'm sure Lee has, but like or like even be remotely snippy or snappy. You've got a real kind of like, in my opinion, it appears that you've really got a self control over, your, you know, your capacity, and I don't know what what do you do there?

00;24;50;16 - 00;25;17;07
Jo Hilder
So I'm really lucky that, as a social worker, I work in a profession where burnout is spoken about all the time, and self-care is spoken about all the time. And so it's something that I really deliberately practice caring for myself. So that way it doesn't become burnout. But I have death. Yeah, the answer is I didn't always keep it together.

00;25;17;09 - 00;25;18;10
Dave Quak 
You get it behind the scenes.

00;25;18;10 - 00;25;51;19
Jo Hilder
Yes. I've had, times where, you know, during the day that I was on the floor crying because it was so difficult and, you know, it issues curling up it and sobbing on the phone, asking them to solve my problem. Yeah. And then also having, you know, times where the, the weight and the pressure of study and, and having young children really did take a toll.

00;25;51;20 - 00;26;12;14
Jo Hilder
And I had to take oh, I think I took maybe six weeks off, and I, you know, really had to take a break from work and from study and just focus on restoring myself. And so, yeah, so it's I would say it's a real deliberate practice.

00;26;12;17 - 00;26;13;20
Dave Quak 
Like a discipline.

00;26;13;22 - 00;26;15;15
Jo Hilder
Yeah. Yeah.

00;26;15;17 - 00;26;21;20
Dave Quak 
Okay. So, Joe, you said you've got a bit of a management strategy when it comes to self-care. Can you share that with us?

00;26;21;23 - 00;26;50;10
Jo Hilder
Yeah, of course, of course. I think the first thing is to prevent burnout. You know, that's what self-care is for. For me, the first thing is recognizing what does it feel like to be healthy? What does it feel like for me? And now is what comes to my mind as we're speaking is last weekend I had two dinner parties and at both dinner parties.

00;26;50;10 - 00;27;16;18
Jo Hilder
You know, some friends had cooked this delicious food and I'm relaxed and we're sharing stories and jokes and and that feeling of joy and peace to me, that's what it feels like when I'm. Well. And so I have to put in lots of things just in my every single day to day practice to maintain that joy in peace and the end of the week.

00;27;16;20 - 00;27;21;21
Jo Hilder
So I think you had somebody else on the podcast talked about eat, sleep, exercise.

00;27;21;25 - 00;27;22;08
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah.

00;27;22;14 - 00;27;34;24
Jo Hilder
I would probably add relationships to that, but otherwise it is as simple as that. Right? So, you know, eating healthy, I mean, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm married to a chef and.

00;27;34;27 - 00;27;37;22
Dave Quak 
Every, my, every listen, I just got jealous. But yes, it's.

00;27;37;24 - 00;27;52;17
Jo Hilder
I, I don't my moves. But I might say, oh, you know, there's lots of flus going round. Oh, yeah. I'm coming down with something. And then we'll have minestrone soup full of vegetables for dinner.

00;27;52;20 - 00;27;53;15
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;27;53;18 - 00;28;20;28
Jo Hilder
So eating healthy, I think is it's really important. Sleeping. Well, I know personally I need nine hours of sleep. Yeah, that's a lot. And so I have to make sure that I go to bed really early. So that way I can get nine hours sleep. I know that, you know, I like to exercise every single week. I go for a walk with a friend.

00;28;21;05 - 00;28;47;08
Jo Hilder
We have a coffee, a chat. So I've lots of things like this that I do every day. I read the Bible every day. Now it's. Well, I've found that that doesn't so much help with my self-care when I'm healthy, but I'm always so grateful the minute tension starts to build. Oh, I can remember something that I read in the Bible that's going to help me in that moment.

00;28;47;09 - 00;28;49;23
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;28;49;25 - 00;29;15;23
Jo Hilder
But other things that I do, we say grace as a family, we talk about things that we're grateful for every night. So that helps just with my mindset. And then work. For years I've been doing this because I work in a hospital setting for half of the week. I wash my hands with warm water. So when you work in the hospital, you wash your hands like 80 times a day, okay?

00;29;15;25 - 00;29;25;09
Jo Hilder
And I get a lot of comfort from taking that little extra second to have warm water to wash my hands.

00;29;25;09 - 00;29;25;29
Dave Quak 
It's interesting.

00;29;25;29 - 00;29;35;14
Jo Hilder
So even something as simple as that for me is a simple strategy that I'll use just to stay. Well, yeah.

00;29;35;17 - 00;29;40;17
Dave Quak 
Why does the warm water work? Is it because it slows you down, or is it just because it feels nice? Or.

00;29;40;21 - 00;30;13;05
Jo Hilder
I think that it's probably, you know, about mindfulness practices. So taking a moment to slow down, to feel the warmth, you know, like holding a warm cup of tea can bring comfort, to feel the warmth. And in my mind, I also think, this is about taking care of myself. So I think that it's all kind of connected in, you know, self talk, but also just that comfort opposed to, you know, a bit of ice cold water or even worse, that alcohol sanitizer.

00;30;13;05 - 00;30;14;00
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Just running down.

00;30;14;08 - 00;30;16;01
Jo Hilder
Yeah. Yes.

00;30;16;07 - 00;30;25;18
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So with the relationships that you mentioned, you do the gratefulness thing with the family is that sort of the first of many or is that the main one or.

00;30;25;20 - 00;31;03;04
Jo Hilder
So in the evenings just we just say grace up in before dinner. Yeah. And my husband's not a Christian. And so we've had times where we've said grace and then times where we haven't, for the last six months or so, we've been saying it and we've really we've got a roster on the board. I think somebody came to speak at our church on parenting, and she talked about having a roster on the calendar, and we all take it in turns, praying and I have loved building that practice up in my kids right at the end of the day, for them to talk about what they're grateful for beyond the meal.

00;31;03;06 - 00;31;31;03
Jo Hilder
But also to start praying for each other. Yeah, in the family. But also, my husband and I, we like to spend quite a lot of time together as a family unit. Yeah. So on the weekend, we normally have one outing that we do as a family to the beach or to the park or to an art gallery, whatever it is, we like to spend quite a lot of time as a family.

00;31;31;04 - 00;31;32;26
Dave Quak 
That's just the four of you together, just.

00;31;32;26 - 00;32;00;11
Jo Hilder
The four of us. And then, you know, reality and life starts to build and a bit of stress. And also, I recognize in myself, I like, I like to see a little bit of stress, you know, I, I, you like working and studying and striving, you know, setting a goal and working hard. And so naturally, stress can build in my life.

00;32;00;13 - 00;32;23;18
Jo Hilder
And so then I have a whole nother set of strategies because I know what. Well, feels like. I also know what it feels like when I'm starting not get burnt out, but just starting to feel stressed. And for me, that might be sleep goes. Yeah, I, you know, I start sending emails in my mind.

00;32;23;23 - 00;32;24;08
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;32;24;10 - 00;32;49;06
Jo Hilder
I start to have arguments with people and work. I start to replay things. And I've learned now that, I have a kids audio book and I just put on that kid's audio book, and normally within ten minutes, I'm asleep. That's cool. And so I know now I don't need to suffer for six hours and be tired the next day.

00;32;49;07 - 00;32;52;21
Jo Hilder
Yeah, I found something that will work for me then.

00;32;52;22 - 00;32;53;28
Dave Quak 
That's awesome.

00;32;54;00 - 00;33;23;20
Jo Hilder
I have different strategies, like maybe box breathing, so maybe I do need to have a tough conversation with somebody at work, or maybe have a job interview or some kind of high stakes. And I'm stressed in the moment. I'll use a box breathing strategy and with my finger now I'm drawing a square box. But you know that that's just a strategy to slow my breathing, which slows my heart rate, which comes my mind.

00;33;23;25 - 00;33;28;16
Jo Hilder
So that's an example of a strategy that I'll use in my work day.

00;33;28;19 - 00;33;32;08
Dave Quak 
So you do with actually while you're walking round. Oh yeah. Yeah.

00;33;32;08 - 00;33;34;24
Jo Hilder
Okay. Yeah. I mean I won't draw the box.

00;33;34;26 - 00;33;36;24
Dave Quak 
You won't do the finger but could do it now.

00;33;36;26 - 00;33;56;19
Jo Hilder
But I will in my mind count. You know ideally four seconds and I'll stretch that out sometimes when I'm really stressed. Yeah. If we can get to two seconds, which is when I say two seconds. So you breathe in for two seconds, hold for two seconds, breathe out for two seconds. Hold for two seconds. That's the four steps.

00;33;56;21 - 00;34;26;12
Jo Hilder
And you want to get that ideally for five six seconds. Yeah. And that. Yeah. So I find that works for me. Then there's another strategy, which is where, if I'm starting to feel anxious, I will, try and ground myself. So I might look for five things that I can see. I might try and listen for.

00;34;26;16 - 00;34;50;26
Jo Hilder
For things I can hear. You know, two things I can smell based kinds of, you know, bringing myself back into the moment. Right. And, and I'm going to share now where my mental health fits into this. Yeah. Because I mental health through my family. You know, I saw a counselor after, having the miscarriages to make sense of things.

00;34;50;29 - 00;35;23;08
Jo Hilder
Now I'm mostly well, but I, you know, as a social worker, of course I'm going to self-diagnose. Yes. Which say I have, probably something like situational anxiety, where there's two particular situations that send my anxiety through the brain. Okay. So much like I even had a panic attack once. So one situation is, you know, I'm an in because I've had some, you know, not great experiences.

00;35;23;08 - 00;35;40;28
Jo Hilder
I'm terrified of being sexually assaulted, which is such a dark topic. But it means that when I am finishing work and walking to my car at 430 in the afternoon, I'm terrified. Okay, I like my heart's racing. I get into the car, I lock the doors.

00;35;41;00 - 00;35;41;20
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;35;41;22 - 00;35;52;25
Jo Hilder
The other situation is driving and being worried about a car accidents specifically on windy roads because the way we have nice straight.

00;35;52;27 - 00;35;53;15
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;35;53;17 - 00;36;17;28
Jo Hilder
Relaxing vibes to drive. And over here we have winding roads. So, you know, I said my husband likes, you know, we like to have family time. So one day he's like, oh, you know, why didn't we drive up to I really? So that'll be like a nice day out and I like. Yeah, sure. All right. We get in the car and O'Reilly's is about 90 minutes from where we live.

00;36;17;28 - 00;36;24;00
Jo Hilder
And so after about an hour, like I am stressed from these. What do you.

00;36;24;00 - 00;36;25;18
Dave Quak 
Yeah, it's.

00;36;25;20 - 00;36;49;07
Jo Hilder
And I make people over and I'm like please can we just go home. He's like no, no, no. Like we're almost there. We've driven an hour. We've just got to like 20 minutes and we'll be there. And I'm really asking him to go home and he's really telling me, we're so close, let's just do this. Yeah. So I get back in the car and we, driving.

00;36;49;10 - 00;37;05;24
Jo Hilder
I don't know if any listeners have been to I. Rileys. I imagine the tallest mountain in the area. Yeah, with a one way track. They'll probably do 20km an hour, but the busses are going down the other way.

00;37;05;26 - 00;37;10;00
Dave Quak 
And there's not a really sturdy rail between you and the.

00;37;10;02 - 00;37;11;05
Jo Hilder
No, no, not at all.

00;37;11;05 - 00;37;14;03
Dave Quak 
I hate that drive, too, but not as much as you keep going with a friend.

00;37;14;03 - 00;37;34;21
Jo Hilder
So, like, I'm sitting in the front seat and I'm silently crying because my mind is imagining we're going to have a car accident and like, my kids will die, and then I'll have to live the rest of my life without my kids, and I'll know what's worse than that. I'll die, and my kids will have to live the rest of their life without their mum.

00;37;34;21 - 00;37;55;02
Jo Hilder
And I hope they're going to be okay. And I'm like, oh no, no, it's okay. I've got these strategies. So then I'm trying out those like box breathing strategies and grounding strategies, and then this other voice in my head is like, you know that that's just crap that they we tell people. So that way we feel that way.

00;37;55;04 - 00;38;18;26
Jo Hilder
It doesn't actually. Oh and we get to the top of it. Riley's. Oh. And by now I've had like a full on panic attack. And I open up the door and I'm like, breathing. And I'm like, oh my goodness, we've just survived death. Wow. And I look around and there's like 200 people just coming about for a day, and I'm like, don't they realize what we've just experienced?

00;38;18;29 - 00;38;42;17
Jo Hilder
And so I do have those strategies. But I also recognize that there's times where I need to get professional help when my, like, strategies that I have every day just don't cut the mustard. Yeah. And, you know, and that's when and I have it on my to do list to go and see a counselor. So hopefully I'll get round to that.

00;38;42;18 - 00;38;46;13
Dave Quak 
I'll get around to that. The panic attack sounds horrible.

00;38;46;16 - 00;38;53;20
Jo Hilder
I don't know if you've ever had one day, but it is. I mean, I really believed I was going to die, like.

00;38;53;20 - 00;38;56;26
Dave Quak 
That's what I've heard. Yeah, I've heard you feel like you're going to die. Yeah.

00;38;57;02 - 00;38;57;14
Jo Hilder
Yeah.

00;38;57;14 - 00;38;58;03
Dave Quak 
That's horrible.

00;38;58;07 - 00;39;05;18
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The great thing about my type of anxiety is I can just avoid winding roads.

00;39;05;20 - 00;39;06;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;39;06;08 - 00;39;17;07
Jo Hilder
So, I mean, I'll never go to I Riley's even my husband joked like, what if one of our daughters want to get married to that? And it was like, well, they'll get married without it.

00;39;17;09 - 00;39;23;23
Dave Quak 
They're going to get married at the end of the straight road. So you can always go Riley's, but you can't avoid that. Walk back to the car at 430.

00;39;24;00 - 00;39;56;04
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah. And what do you do there? And so that's why I want to actually go and get help from it, because sometimes, like, how lucky me, I can avoid windy road. Yeah. But you know, the way that I describe the way I think of, like, a mental illness and when I actually need to get help is when am I missing out on things that I really want to do, or when is it really stealing my pace in my day to day?

00;39;56;04 - 00;40;18;26
Jo Hilder
Yeah. So with the windy roads, Mount Tamborine is halfway up to Mount to a Riley's and a good friend of mine was having her 50th birthday party, and I was all ready to go, and it was going to be at night, and I was really nervous. Still going to go. And it started raining and I thought, I can't go.

00;40;18;28 - 00;40;44;05
Jo Hilder
Yeah. And and so that's where I was like, oh, like I really I ended up a friend ended up driving me and I really didn't want to miss out on my friend's birthday. And the same with, you know, this fear of sexual assault, you know, like every single afternoon I have to walk to my car and I'm ready to.

00;40;44;05 - 00;40;50;13
Jo Hilder
Well, it's probably got to the point where that's so painful. What? I'm actually ready to do something about it.

00;40;50;15 - 00;40;54;14
Dave Quak 
Yeah, that's really heavy, Joe, because that's a very regular occurrence.

00;40;54;16 - 00;41;19;13
Jo Hilder
Yeah. Thankfully, the walk is only about four minutes. Yeah. And I, I, can get in there and, you know, I lock the doors immediately and, and then you know, and then I'm fine. And we're lucky enough that through my work we have, unemployment assistance program, so I don't even have to pay it to have it for for you to speak to a counselor.

00;41;19;15 - 00;41;27;05
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And that's the thing about mental ill health is it doesn't make sense, but it it is completely real.

00;41;27;07 - 00;41;27;27
Jo Hilder
Yeah, right.

00;41;28;00 - 00;41;33;14
Dave Quak 
That's the thing I'm learning. Interviewing awesome people like you is some things we do other people like that. So makes.

00;41;33;14 - 00;41;34;18
Jo Hilder
Sense. Yeah.

00;41;34;20 - 00;41;45;00
Dave Quak 
But it that's exactly right. It doesn't. Yes. That's why it's a mental illness. I do stuff that doesn't make sense. But to me it's all I can do in that moment. And it's all I'm gonna do in that moment.

00;41;45;02 - 00;42;11;06
Jo Hilder
And as well, I think the things that I. Cause you're like, oh, it doesn't make sense. And it doesn't. And yet my mind thinks that it does. That's right. Like, I've worked in the emergency department for seven years. I'm a social worker. I, I've heard horrible that sort of sexual assault. I've heard horrible stories of car accidents. I'm like, yeah, no, everybody should be as terrified as me.

00;42;11;06 - 00;42;12;04
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;42;12;06 - 00;42;49;26
Jo Hilder
But I, I do think that we're supposed to live in peace. Yeah. And that we're not supposed to feel anxious. You know? And, Yeah, I, I don't think that God wants me to feel anxious in my day to day. No. So, thank goodness we have those tools, professionals that can help. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I really want to acknowledge how difficult it is to actually take that step, to go out and get help because I've seen a counselor before.

00;42;49;28 - 00;43;08;13
Jo Hilder
Yeah, I work in the profession. Yeah. I don't even have to pay. It's at work. Yeah. And yet, you know, I took me maybe six months from making the decision. Took me six months to make the appointment. Yeah, and then they asked to reschedule it.

00;43;08;15 - 00;43;08;25
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;43;08;28 - 00;43;09;27
Jo Hilder
And I was like, oh, no.

00;43;09;27 - 00;43;11;02
Dave Quak 
Okay. Yeah.

00;43;11;05 - 00;43;26;28
Jo Hilder
I better check my calendar. Yeah, yeah I do. Yeah. So even for somebody like me that's got so many privileges to make that process easier, it still takes so much courage. Yeah. To go in to get help.

00;43;27;01 - 00;43;45;20
Dave Quak 
It really does. And I want to honor anyone who is getting help. You know, that first step where you're in the waiting room trembling because you don't know how it's going to go? Yeah. You know, and there is the frustration when you see someone and there's no chemistry and you have to start again, or even, in my case, with medication and get on medication and think it was great.

00;43;45;28 - 00;43;57;29
Dave Quak 
And two weeks later it was back to learning. So you have to change to something else and but the goal towards peace and restoration is our. Yeah. And art is our lofty goal and we've got to keep pursuing it. Hey.

00;43;58;03 - 00;44;01;03
Jo Hilder
Yeah. And you know, health is hard work.

00;44;01;03 - 00;44;06;03
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah. Well, it is much easier to sit on the couch eating chips and better.

00;44;06;06 - 00;44;09;23
Jo Hilder
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;44;09;25 - 00;44;20;29
Dave Quak 
Joe, for anyone listening who wants to put a plan of some sort in to help them maintain, you know, their, their health and their spiritual health and a self-care plan, what would you say? What would you advise?

00;44;21;02 - 00;44;49;10
Jo Hilder
Yeah, I would strongly encourage everybody to have some sort of plan of how they're going to take care of themselves in their every day, but then also when things start to get tough, I think the first step is really to reflect on what it feels like for you when you're feeling well. Reflect and maybe talk to some people that you love and trust about.

00;44;49;15 - 00;45;17;14
Jo Hilder
What are some of your early warning signs when you're starting to feel stressed? So is it for me? It's my sleep. Is it well for me as well? Maybe I get a bit irritable and short with the family. So recognize what your signs are that you're starting to feel stressed and then having I think about what sort of strategies work for you, what brings comfort and joy.

00;45;17;14 - 00;45;42;16
Jo Hilder
It might not be hand washing. It might not be, you know, walking on the beach with a friend. But what sort of things can you easily put into your every day that that are going to bring some comfort to you? There's, there's loads of websites out there that have got, you know, they explain box breathing and grounding strategies.

00;45;42;16 - 00;46;10;18
Jo Hilder
And, you know, I think that have a play with those and say, oh yeah, I'll have that in my pocket for later or not. Once you know what it's like for you to feel well and what your early warning signs are, and what strategies are you going to have in place day to day, but then also as you start to feel stressed, I'd encourage people to then be really open and talk to others when you are feeling stressed.

00;46;10;18 - 00;46;34;01
Jo Hilder
So I might say to my kids or mum had a really tough day today. You know, mum doesn't have much left in the bank. Don't push mum tonight. Even with my my boss, if I'm starting to feel stressed at work, I talk to her about it. We talk about what strategies I can put into place at work.

00;46;34;03 - 00;47;00;22
Jo Hilder
And then I think that there is real value in writing this down, even if it's just notes in your phone. That's all mine really is, because we can often forget we can set really great intentions and then in the moment forget. So there is some value in writing it down. So that's what I would encourage any listeners who want to get a self-care plan in place for them.

00;47;00;28 - 00;47;01;00
Jo Hilder
Yeah.

00;47;01;02 - 00;47;21;20
Dave Quak 
That's awesome. Super practical. We can leave that. Outro. Joe, it's been a pleasure having you. It really has. I like you, Joe Hilder. Doctor Joe Hilder, you're an awesome woman. Your achieving much. You're a loving person and I'm thankful to have you in in our in my life and I'm sure the listeners are blessed to have have you on today.

00;47;21;20 - 00;47;31;01
Dave Quak 
So thank you Joe. I do tend to put our guests on the spot and ask them to pray us out at the end of the episode. Is that okay? If you pray for the listeners, like.

00;47;31;03 - 00;47;32;22
Jo Hilder
Oh, I'd be my honored Dave.

00;47;32;22 - 00;47;35;10
Dave Quak 
Let's, Thanks, Jay.

00;47;35;13 - 00;48;27;29
Jo Hilder
Lord, thank you so much that we have this medium of podcast where Dave and I can get together and talk and share our stories with the listeners. And thank you so much for Dave, who is championing this topic of faith and mental health. I think that, you know, our society is so ready to hear these stories. I guess I, I pray for all the listeners that are perhaps feeling a bit burnt out or feeling stress in their own day to day lives, that they will be encouraged from listening to my story, to take some actions and put into play their own self-care plan, and that if they need to have speaking to a professional as

00;48;27;29 - 00;48;36;28
Jo Hilder
part of their self-care plan, that you will give them the courage and the strength to do that.

00;48;37;01 - 00;48;43;20
Dave Quak 
Thank you Joe. You've done.

00;48;43;22 - 00;49;07;05
Dave Quak 
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out some bentos.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak something. That souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.

00;49;07;07 - 00;49;16;29
Dave Quak 
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged to manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Somewhere and Solace.