Understanding Eunuchs: Michael's Journey of Faith, Identity, and Relationship with Jesus

00;00;01;09 - 00;00;28;06
Dave Quak 
Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being as a pastor that struggles with mental illness. I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of lives. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.

00;00;28;08 - 00;00;48;09
Dave Quak 
Sunburnt Souls you guys are in for an absolute treat. I am here with my friend Michael, and we are sitting in the cry room of a church. So we're surrounded by advocacies and art and flowers and a big glass wall. But it's a nice room. We've been lent this by a church. So Michael, thank you for being here.

00;00;48;12 - 00;00;50;17
Dave Quak 
Welcome. Welcome to somebody and souls.

00;00;50;20 - 00;01;05;12
Michael
Hi. Glad to be here. I decided that this was an important topic, and I need to tell my story so that the the body of Christ can hear it and get it. Get the story out.

00;01;05;14 - 00;01;13;21
Dave Quak 
I love it. I appreciate your willingness. Why don't we start? Just tell us a little bit about yourself. You're from around here. Siblings. Any of those things? Hobbies?

00;01;13;23 - 00;01;23;18
Michael
I've got one brother. I step brother and a step sister. And a half brother. And a half sister. Okay.

00;01;23;21 - 00;01;26;20
Dave Quak 
Nice. And what are you into, dogs or cats?

00;01;26;23 - 00;01;28;09
Michael
I'm definitely a dog person.

00;01;28;09 - 00;01;40;13
Dave Quak 
Dog people don't. People are better. I think cats. Cats are a bit pretentious, aren't they? Yeah, just a little bit. Yeah. And what about Queensland? New South Wales? Are you a happy or sad person this weekend? State of origin.

00;01;40;18 - 00;01;42;10
Michael
I'm a very sad person or a.

00;01;42;10 - 00;01;44;02
Dave Quak 
Sad person too.

00;01;44;04 - 00;01;50;15
Michael
Yeah, it was a bit sad this week. Yeah. And it doesn't do much better that the Broncos aren't doing that well.

00;01;50;19 - 00;01;52;24
Dave Quak 
You know what I always six down in a row now.

00;01;52;25 - 00;02;11;23
Michael
Yeah something like that all night. But you know I'm a Bronco. I've been a Broncos fan since I was four years old when they started. So yeah, dad used to make us. We used to sit there and watch it with dad. So. Yeah, you know, we're used to them having bad seasons. Yeah. It's okay.

00;02;11;25 - 00;02;29;28
Dave Quak 
They're either really good or really bad. But, Michael, we met a couple of weeks ago. I came up to your church and had an interview with your pastor. And you introduce yourself and just gave me a bit of your backstory, especially about some biological stuff. Why don't we start there? So you got some interesting things biologically going on?

00;02;30;00 - 00;03;00;26
Michael
Yeah, I do this year. There are multiple terms for it. Some would call it into six hermaphrodites. The old school term. Yeah. The Bible refers to it as a unique. Yeah. From the mother's womb. It in Matthew 19 it refers to a eunuch from the mother's womb. Okay. That's the category I fall under.

00;03;00;29 - 00;03;12;24
Dave Quak 
Okay. So for today's discussion, do if we refer to it, would you prefer intersex or unique or. Obviously Michael. But you know, like if we speak about the the topic.

00;03;12;27 - 00;03;41;28
Michael
I don't hold any of the terms particularly tightly to be honest. Yet like when I introduced myself to you, I went with hermaphrodite purely because of the pride community stigma around the word intersex. Okay. And I don't want people thinking I'm not a part of the pride community. I'm not. Yeah, I don't support them. I don't come into alignment with anything that I have to say.

00;03;42;03 - 00;03;44;08
Michael
Okay. About. Just about anything.

00;03;44;11 - 00;03;45;18
Dave Quak 
You want that cleared from the start.

00;03;45;19 - 00;04;05;21
Michael
The clear from the start. This is not a person who's coming into a church from the pride community trying to change the church. I came to church so that the church could change me into the image of Christ. Okay. That's what I wanted when I first rocked up. That's what I still want today.

00;04;05;27 - 00;04;07;23
Dave Quak 
Keep going. Man, this is good that.

00;04;07;26 - 00;04;39;15
Michael
We're supposed to ignore culture, but in my position I can't. And I also know that the more my story you hear and the more you get to know me, you realize my history comes far closer to the pride community than, for example, yourself, your most parishioners. Except like most people in the church. But I can't agree. I can't get into alignment with their thinking.

00;04;39;20 - 00;04;41;08
Dave Quak 
Can you explain why?

00;04;41;10 - 00;05;06;11
Michael
Because I've seen the dark side of it. Yeah. See, I, I get the feeling that a lot of people think that this pride community thing popped up miraculously over the last 5 or 10 years. The real dark reality. And this is going to be a shock for some Australians is it's been around since I was a teenager.

00;05;06;18 - 00;05;07;15
Michael
Yeah.

00;05;07;17 - 00;05;09;09
Dave Quak 
And even before. Yeah.

00;05;09;11 - 00;05;33;17
Michael
Yeah. Well before but it's I've seen it since I was a teenager. Yeah. The pride flag, which is a whole nother topic. Yeah. Used to be the secret symbol. It used to be the like if you knew, you knew like like a covert.

00;05;33;17 - 00;05;33;29
Dave Quak 
Sort of.

00;05;33;29 - 00;05;58;16
Michael
Like. Exactly. Yeah. Like you'd see people with the rainbow sort of colors on their t shirt or on or on something. And so I think, maybe they know, maybe they, you know. But you never really knew unless they sort of talk to you introduce themselves. Okay. And it's only been in the last 5 or 10 years that it's gone from.

00;05;58;18 - 00;06;04;21
Michael
We'll just hide in the corner. Yeah. To shove it down your throat. Okay.

00;06;04;24 - 00;06;06;19
Dave Quak 
And yeah, there's been a big shift.

00;06;06;21 - 00;06;14;12
Michael
The moment they went to shove it down your throat. I immediately said, not okay. I'm not playing that.

00;06;14;14 - 00;06;21;07
Dave Quak 
Right. And so you were part of that community earlier, like before, your teenage years or not part, but, like.

00;06;21;09 - 00;06;49;15
Michael
Well, I, I guess I've always had ties with them. Yeah. Because again, I'm more familiar with date, like their stories way closer to mine than most people. Yes. So it's sort of a relatable. But they they understand. Yeah. But what people like you can see you you can see it if you really know what you're looking at and what you're looking for.

00;06;49;18 - 00;06;59;12
Michael
But there's a real toxicity behind it. Okay. And the casual observer might not see it.

00;06;59;15 - 00;07;01;15
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Because we're not sort of involved.

00;07;01;17 - 00;07;17;22
Michael
Exactly. You, you sort of you got to be able to look behind if you peeked behind the curtain, you know. Yeah. Like it's my father's old adage was you never want to see how the sausage is made.

00;07;17;24 - 00;07;18;24
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Yeah.

00;07;18;26 - 00;07;20;14
Michael
It's the that kind of.

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Dave Quak 
That kind of idea.

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Michael
It. Okay. It's. Yeah. It's not cool.

00;07;25;18 - 00;07;38;23
Dave Quak 
Can we rewind a little bit, Michael. So you mentioned intersex and unique. Can I just ask specifically what that that is like biologically for anyone who has not heard the phrases or understands.

00;07;38;25 - 00;08;27;17
Michael
Okay. Intersex is before it was taken over with going pre pride. It is an, an older umbrella term for what's now been known as DSD disorders of sexual. Something like functional. Something to that effect. Dysfunctions of sexual disorders. And it's me personally. Mine stems from birth. Yeah. Obviously I don't have a functional pituitary gland. Okay. So I don't produce secondary sex hormones.

00;08;27;19 - 00;08;30;26
Michael
Yeah. Okay. Male or female? Right.

00;08;30;27 - 00;08;32;08
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;08;32;10 - 00;09;12;13
Michael
I have. Here we go. I have some I have male anatomy. Yeah, but I also have female anatomy. Okay. I have developed completely developed breast tissue. Yeah. I have some of some female internal organs. Okay. A ovaries and what looks to be at least one fallopian tube. Part of one. Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm going to leave it. That is.

00;09;12;16 - 00;09;21;19
Michael
Yeah, there is something else, but it's probably a bit private. That's fine. It's probably. It's probably going a bit too far.

00;09;21;21 - 00;09;30;14
Dave Quak 
Okay. Not all good. Okay. So you've got some female reproductive organs. Yes. As well as male external organs.

00;09;30;15 - 00;09;31;08
Michael
Yes.

00;09;31;10 - 00;09;39;13
Dave Quak 
My son obviously wanted to know, do you have the physical capabilities to theoretically impregnate yourself?

00;09;39;15 - 00;09;39;26
Michael
No.

00;09;40;00 - 00;09;43;12
Dave Quak 
Okay. So you don't produce sperm as well as an egg?

00;09;43;14 - 00;10;13;05
Michael
Technically, I don't produce either. Yeah. Okay. Because, Because of the lack of. Second, the lack of the hormone. Okay. Technically, they might be people who got similar conditions that theoretically could yet theoretically. But again, you got you got to take into account that it's 0.02% of the population.

00;10;13;08 - 00;10;17;01
Dave Quak 
So 0.02. Intersex or unique?

00;10;17;03 - 00;10;18;02
Michael
Yep.

00;10;18;04 - 00;10;20;02
Dave Quak 
So what is that? Is that two in.

00;10;20;06 - 00;10;41;05
Michael
One in every 5500 births? That ranges. And yes, there is some variance. And it depends what you define as an intersex condition. Yeah. There are some who would put it at one point as high as 1.7%.

00;10;41;08 - 00;10;41;28
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;10;42;00 - 00;10;44;26
Michael
This is world population.

00;10;44;28 - 00;10;51;20
Dave Quak 
And I guess there'd be some countries where they wouldn't know, maybe like in India and stuff, where they don't have the technology to explore.

00;10;51;22 - 00;11;17;26
Michael
Well, the reality is that you could be. Yeah. You wouldn't know unless you had the skin. Okay. Is it. It's more concealable in a male for obvious reasons. Yeah, but unle, if you go through normal puberty, they have no reason to investigate. That's true. Like you wouldn't.

00;11;17;26 - 00;11;19;08
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Why would you look? Yeah.

00;11;19;11 - 00;11;43;02
Michael
Exactly. Yeah. You know, in theory, you could be sitting. You could be sitting here with the same or similar internal organs and never know it, because you've never had it investigated because there was never any reason. Yeah. Okay. And a lot of people who have found out have found out because they had an accident or an injury in the area.

00;11;43;08 - 00;12;12;23
Michael
Okay. Or again, fertility is another one that do always draws attention to. Right. So the numbers could be slightly different based on whether or not you've actually had it looked into or not. But it's so rare that it's very hard to you can't do big studies on it like you take for example, brain cancer. You know, every seed, every major city on the planet has people with brain cancer.

00;12;12;27 - 00;12;19;27
Michael
Yeah. So it's really easy to get studies boy. Yeah. I've never met another person in Australia with my condition.

00;12;19;28 - 00;12;20;15
Dave Quak 
Not ever.

00;12;20;21 - 00;12;36;03
Michael
No. Well, there's other people with other intersex conditions. Yeah. In it, they fall into the category, but never the one with my like or very close to seem like. Yeah. Right. Say.

00;12;36;06 - 00;12;50;03
Dave Quak 
Well, while puberty is a confusing time at the best of times. How is that like childhood and and and teenagers are ruthless and kids are ruthless like Hannah was that.

00;12;50;05 - 00;13;18;02
Michael
Well, my, you needn't be generally considered puberty years got a lot better when I stopped going to school. Okay. No, school was. It's horrible. Was. Yeah, it. You know, if you asked me to picture hell, it would be stuck back in school. Yeah. That was my health. Like, it was absolutely cruel. It was absolutely merciless.

00;13;18;04 - 00;13;21;21
Dave Quak 
Yeah, it would have been relentless bullying.

00;13;21;24 - 00;13;46;24
Michael
To a point where there was a story going around. At one point during my high school years where a kid brought a sword to school. Yeah. And I got to the point when I heard the story where I thought, gee, I might be safer if I did that. Okay. Yeah. And that was the point when I realized that my choices were skip school or end up going to jail.

00;13;46;29 - 00;13;50;10
Michael
Yeah. End up with a criminal record by self-defense.

00;13;50;10 - 00;13;51;04
Dave Quak 
Really?

00;13;51;07 - 00;14;16;25
Michael
Well, it it gets to that point. It gets to the point where you've had you've got so much, you get to the point where you go, okay I can't beat this. Can't beat these people by myself. Yeah. What can I use to stop them. Yeah. And at that point, you know, I mean it's a different it was a different time.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;18;20
Michael
You could drop out.

00;14;18;22 - 00;14;21;24
Dave Quak 
So you dropped out. Did things get a bit better once you dropped out?

00;14;21;27 - 00;14;35;09
Michael
Oh, infinitely. Okay. I could go to work. Yeah. And people at work don't tend to care too much about you as long as you don't advertise too much. What's going on? Yeah.

00;14;35;14 - 00;14;36;20
Dave Quak 
Like job done or whatever.

00;14;36;21 - 00;14;49;14
Michael
Exactly. And especially, like the jobs you can get at 14. They don't care. They just want you to do the job. Yeah. So you just go out and work? Yes. It's so much easier.

00;14;49;17 - 00;14;53;05
Dave Quak 
So you've been working pretty solidly since 14, 15.

00;14;53;07 - 00;14;55;27
Michael
So for the most part 14 and I think.

00;14;55;29 - 00;15;04;25
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Did it did that bullying or even any of the just the nasty stuff ever flow into the workplace, or have you been pretty shielded.

00;15;04;27 - 00;15;09;07
Michael
A couple of times? I could have kept private that I didn't.

00;15;09;09 - 00;15;11;01
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;15;11;03 - 00;15;28;28
Michael
And I copped a little bit of it. Yeah. Towards that. But you know, the moment I saw it was like okay I'm out by. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I was gone within like a week. Yeah. There's only so much a human being can take. Yeah.

00;15;29;01 - 00;15;30;20
Dave Quak 
Oh, it would be terrible. Yeah.

00;15;30;22 - 00;15;54;14
Michael
It. No matter how you look at it, it gets. The more you the DPG in, the more complicated it gets. Yeah. Because even in primary school, I had bright red hair. Okay. Like, it's a lot darker than it is. That was then? Yeah. And it was completely cold. Yeah. Like perm kind of look. Natural perm.

00;15;54;14 - 00;15;55;12
Dave Quak 
Natural perm.

00;15;55;15 - 00;16;24;13
Michael
Natural perm. Kind of curled. Not so much when I was in primary school. But as I got into high school and sort of started to understand what was going on with my body. I realized that the only way I could effectively cover it up was to gain weight. Really? Sometimes it's easier to think someone has made boobs than it is to have actual breasts.

00;16;24;13 - 00;16;53;28
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. So eat. You deliberately overeat. You eat the wrong things to put on weight, so it just look like you're fat. Okay. Because it's easier to cock that than have nicknames about it. Yeah. But, you know, being overweight doesn't help in high school either. No. So it there was no good win. There was no we couldn't no.

00;16;54;00 - 00;17;19;13
Michael
And it got to the weight got to that point. And yes I drove my mum absolutely positively insane. Yeah. Because she worked to the school, she worked in the school system. So one of my tactics was. Oversleep. You know, take too long to get ready. Take too long to eat breakfast.

00;17;19;17 - 00;17;20;14
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;17;20;17 - 00;17;29;12
Michael
Because knowing she had to go to work. Yeah. If I could stall out until she left. I didn't have to leave. Yeah. Sit and.

00;17;29;12 - 00;17;30;02
Dave Quak 
Stay home.

00;17;30;05 - 00;18;01;26
Michael
Yeah. And my mother got driven to a point where she was almost having a breakdown. But I couldn't articulate it either. Yeah. I couldn't explain it. So it was sort of a butthead situation. Yeah. And it got to the point where she was talking the story she told us where she was talking to her doctor one day about about me and all the things I was doing.

00;18;01;29 - 00;18;09;25
Michael
And the doctor turned around to her and go, well, she's staying home is not causing trouble on the street.

00;18;09;27 - 00;18;11;05
Dave Quak 
God bless that doctor.

00;18;11;07 - 00;18;31;20
Michael
Yeah. We'll see. I think after that she kind of gave up. Yeah. She gave up trying to force me which was a blessing. Again it's not a healthy thing. But considering the alternatives. Yeah it was a blessing. Yeah.

00;18;31;22 - 00;18;39;21
Dave Quak 
It's quite a miracle you got through those years Michael to be honest, did you ever get suicidal or anything through all that.

00;18;39;23 - 00;19;12;26
Michael
That's a I don't know if suicide was the right word. Later on, it was explained to me that it's not that I wanted to die. I just didn't want to live. Yeah. And I think that is there is more and that's more accurate than actually suicidal. Yeah. I didn't actively seek to end my life. Yeah. But I was careless with it.

00;19;12;28 - 00;19;33;11
Michael
Yeah. Like, especially when you get into the 18. The 18 to that 25 was probably the really reckless and careless with my life stage. Yeah. Okay. Up to that point it was more isolation.

00;19;33;14 - 00;19;45;29
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So that. Yeah. So school till 1415. Home till about 18. And then what did I. 18 to 25. When you say reckless, do you mean like going out on the beaches and stuff or like, self punishment or what?

00;19;45;29 - 00;20;00;28
Michael
To drinks, drugs, cigarets. Yeah. At times people would say, you take that much of this substance, it's going to kill you. Okay. That's challenge.

00;20;00;29 - 00;20;07;25
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Okay. So it's sort of like trying to numb the pain or what was it more of a self punishment or.

00;20;07;28 - 00;20;09;19
Michael
In reality, it was probably both.

00;20;09;22 - 00;20;10;01
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;20;10;07 - 00;20;49;07
Michael
Yeah. It was. Let's see how much damage I can do. It was. You know anything to get out of the headspace I was in. Yeah. Because even know like I think the first time I realized I was different was in primary school. And I sort of knew it. And then just on 18 just before they did the initial round of tests and confirmed that there was a problem.

00;20;49;10 - 00;21;00;11
Michael
Yeah. So that, you know, once you got that confirmation that. It wasn't a good headspace.

00;21;00;17 - 00;21;01;28
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;21;02;01 - 00;21;22;10
Michael
And there was at that especially by that point there was nothing anybody could have said, nothing anybody could have done. And I know looking back now there were plenty of people who tried. Yeah. But they never would have got through. And I can admit that now. Yeah.

00;21;22;12 - 00;21;29;03
Dave Quak 
I mean what are they going to say. You know like any, any poor mum she obviously loves you and tried and she does.

00;21;29;03 - 00;21;54;09
Michael
And you know I had family members who tried but yeah they couldn't get, they can't understand. And trying to it's taken nearly 40 years to even be able to articulate it to a point where I can say mum this was what was going on. This is how I, this is how I dealt with it. This is what.

00;21;54;12 - 00;22;03;03
Michael
It's not something you just. Oh yeah. Okay. Great. It's not. No no it's not.

00;22;03;05 - 00;22;09;06
Dave Quak 
I this is a whole life like it has implications for family and marriage and kids. It's gone. It's a massive call.

00;22;09;09 - 00;22;35;13
Michael
It gets infinitely more complicated when it comes to marriage and kids and stuff. Yeah. When you consider within myself, I can't honestly guarantee you whether I'm a boy with some female anatomy or I was a girl with some male anatomy. Yeah. So what counts as a same sex relationship?

00;22;35;15 - 00;22;40;22
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So it might that. Yeah. The other no words to that.

00;22;40;23 - 00;22;49;07
Michael
That's a that's a that's the question. That's a rabbit hole that you, you literally, you know, you spend a lifetime in. Yeah.

00;22;49;10 - 00;22;53;02
Dave Quak 
Are you attracted to one over the other.

00;22;53;04 - 00;23;30;15
Michael
Yeah. Yeah. That that's a complicated question because there's not really one over the other. Yeah, I've definitely had attraction to both. Yeah. And there's a very distinct way I know. Yeah. Okay. The difference. But that's again, that's probably too much for YouTube. Yeah, yeah. But they, there's been times when there was a distinct leaning towards one or the other.

00;23;30;19 - 00;23;38;16
Michael
Yeah. And it's not it's not that easy. It's not, it's not.

00;23;38;18 - 00;23;39;29
Dave Quak 
No.

00;23;40;01 - 00;24;06;12
Michael
It's like if you can't, if you can look in the mirror and go, okay, I'm a guy, or look in the mirror and go, okay, I'm a girl. It's infinitely easier. Yeah. But when you look in the mirror and go, maybe. Yeah. Okay. You sort of go, yeah. This is not working.

00;24;06;16 - 00;24;17;08
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So your name's Michael. Is that your first name? Yes. Okay, so you never got to a place where you chose that or just decided to, I don't know, as a dude or nothing.

00;24;17;10 - 00;24;24;10
Michael
It I mean, it's kind of funny. The the not even the name is kind of funny. Okay.

00;24;24;10 - 00;24;25;03
Dave Quak 
Go.

00;24;25;06 - 00;24;37;07
Michael
Well, the what? The name Michael is used for two different characters in the Bible. What? David. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;24;37;08 - 00;24;41;18
Dave Quak 
And the angel and the angel is the wife of David. Spelt the same as well?

00;24;41;22 - 00;24;45;22
Michael
No, it's missing in a okay, but it's pronounced the same.

00;24;45;22 - 00;24;47;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah, right.

00;24;47;04 - 00;24;57;25
Michael
So yeah, that's always fun. That was a more recent fun discovery. I didn't actually know that until much later, but I was named after the angel.

00;24;57;26 - 00;24;58;21
Dave Quak 
Okay.

00;24;58;23 - 00;25;01;12
Michael
My grandmother was very Catholic.

00;25;01;16 - 00;25;10;13
Dave Quak 
Okay, so you mentioned the Bible a couple of times. What about you and God? Michael, is there anything there gone on?

00;25;10;15 - 00;25;27;29
Michael
The first true conversation I had with God, I told him to just end my life. Yeah. I said I'm done with this. Just. I can't bring myself to kill myself. Just take me. Do it.

00;25;27;29 - 00;25;28;17
Dave Quak 
For me.

00;25;28;19 - 00;26;00;26
Michael
Do it for me. Basically. And I sat on my back porch waiting for like really honestly waiting for the lightning bolt or the, you know, freak accident or something to happen for the half an hour. Yeah. And I said to him, okay, this body's your fault. What am I supposed to do with it now? You know, I was a petulant, rude, arrogant, prideful jerk.

00;26;00;29 - 00;26;29;02
Michael
I can live with that now. But you know, at the time that was, it was as honest as I could be. Probably as honest as I've ever been with anybody. Ever. Yeah. And then. He's like, I got the strangest, which I know now was leading, obviously, but at the time it's like you haven't even read the word like.

00;26;29;02 - 00;26;37;21
Dave Quak 
So you're not a believer at this time? No. I had it out with God and then had a feeling that you haven't, you know, ever lived with read the word what is in the Bible?

00;26;37;24 - 00;27;09;14
Michael
You know, literally I was sitting there arguing with him. And the first thing, the first, you know, the first leading was you haven't read the word. Well, of like, yeah, I should probably do that. So I tore my house apart because when I was a kid, you do the holiday kids club, like at the church thing. And I remembered that I had been given a Bible that no idea where it was.

00;27;09;16 - 00;27;22;18
Michael
So it tore up the house looking for it, couldn't find it. Ended up finding a podcast that was just a random person reading the Old Testament.

00;27;22;22 - 00;27;23;27
Dave Quak 
Oh, yeah.

00;27;24;00 - 00;27;40;05
Michael
So. Well, it's better than nothing. Let's listen to this. I didn't know that you could get it on an app. I didn't know where to even buy a Bible at this point. So it was sort of this, like, creator, he would go on.

00;27;40;05 - 00;27;42;13
Dave Quak 
Google and, yeah.

00;27;42;16 - 00;28;02;16
Michael
And, I was walking around the streets around here just listening to it just sort of with a lot of confusion and mayhem going on in my head. And there's I don't know who, you know, but there's a Catholic church at the other end of the block.

00;28;02;16 - 00;28;03;21
Dave Quak 
Who I didn't know.

00;28;03;26 - 00;28;37;20
Michael
Yeah, there's a rather small it's a small Catholic church up there. So, little looked at it and sort of. Are you here? Is this where I'm supposed to be? Is this it? Sort of, you know, is probing, asking questions, drawn up? Find my way. And I went there for a Sunday service, and I just knew that wasn't where I was supposed to be.

00;28;37;22 - 00;29;07;14
Michael
Like, I just some reason, I just knew it. Yeah. Again, hindsight. It was late. I was being late. Yeah. But at the time I had no idea what was going on. I was just I was just doing random things. And that week, I got my learner's for the first time. So I was starting to drive a little bit.

00;29;07;16 - 00;29;32;07
Michael
And my grandmother, being Catholic, always went to church with her on a Sunday. So I late one night because I was too afraid to drive with like cars on the road at that point. I'd always had the fear when I was like, even when you get to the normal 16 or whatever it is to get a license.

00;29;32;10 - 00;29;52;23
Michael
It was always the thing that I was going to die in a fiery car crash caused by me. Okay. To a point where the thought of it the I was at a friend's place and they asked me to get into the driver's seat of their car in order to turn off lights or something in that sign. Just some.

00;29;52;23 - 00;30;17;11
Michael
Just a little thing in the car. And I sat in the front seat of the driver's seat thing and had such a panic attack that I couldn't walk. Okay. I was climbed out of the car and sat on the pavement for like 45 minutes. Just absolute panic. So as far as I was concerned, driving was never going to be a thing.

00;30;17;14 - 00;30;45;03
Michael
But I sucked it up and got my learner's finally and probably the second or third drive I ever did was to go to the old Catholic churches that my grandmother used to take me. And I'd found one of my grandmother's old crucifixes, and I had it around my neck, and I was going to these churches, and I was literally yelling at the buildings.

00;30;45;05 - 00;31;04;19
Michael
Is this where you are? Are you here? Is this where I'm supposed to be? Nothing. Nothing. Because I got to the last one and I'm standing there and I was yelling out and I was. Like.

00;31;04;21 - 00;31;08;06
Dave Quak 
You're probably not the first person to yell at a church building, so it's okay.

00;31;08;09 - 00;31;34;09
Michael
But I'm really glad I did. Is it like 11:00 at night? Because it would've looked absolutely bonkers to any, like, my brother was in the car, and I'm sure he thought I was bonkers at the time. So you know what? And then as I was getting back in the car, the crucifix fell off my neck up of the the necklace sort of fixed it to.

00;31;34;11 - 00;32;06;21
Michael
And I just knew it was like, this is not this is not it. This is it's the Catholic thing is the problem. Okay. Right. Fair enough. And so I sort of. All right, mate, you know, this is your this is your game. Where am I going next sort of thing. And inexplicably got dragged out of bed really early one morning.

00;32;06;23 - 00;32;43;14
Michael
Just randomly, like I worked the afternoon shift. So, you know, my normal routine is to be awake. Made about 2:00 in the morning. So getting up at like 8:00 in the morning after going to bed at two isn't exactly it's not exactly the easiest thing to do. But I was jolted out of bed. And, All right, I'm going for a walk and listening to this podcast and go for a walk.

00;32;43;16 - 00;32;55;11
Michael
And I walk past this place. Now, I've walked past, driven past been driven past this place, thousands of times. Yeah. Like, because you live literally.

00;32;55;14 - 00;32;55;28
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00;32;56;00 - 00;33;29;12
Michael
I live live at the back end of the street. So it's literally like, yeah, innumerable times and always sort of looked at it and it's like, what's the building looks like really a church, you know, like, you know, Catholic mindset. You gotta you. Yeah. The church has a certain look. It's got the fancy stained glass windows and it's got the, you know, Catholic wants it.

00;33;29;15 - 00;33;58;12
Michael
And I walk past here and I don't, you know, I've always looked at this place kind of funny, but what if I actually went in? But I just a little wandering eye was absolute mess. Yeah. I at that point in time, my hair was dyed a black purple color. Yeah. It was long. Like, it is, like, probably even longer than it is now.

00;33;58;14 - 00;34;29;10
Michael
I was pretty regularly wearing nail polish just to sort of throw people off, because I thought it was funny at the time. Clothing is always been one of those things where, for example, in reality, women's clothes fit me better than men's clothes. Yeah, because they have the upper room. Yeah. You don't get with men's clothes, so it never the color of that and that kind of thing.

00;34;29;10 - 00;34;31;16
Michael
It never really concerned me. Yeah.

00;34;31;17 - 00;34;32;22
Dave Quak 
It was more just the comfort.

00;34;32;28 - 00;35;03;00
Michael
Yeah, it was more a comfort thing because to buy comfortable men's clothes, I've got to buy at least 2 or 3 sizes bigger than I am. Yeah. So a master looked at the. Absolutely right because I wasn't planning on going to church at all. So I had this t shirt on and this bright, multicolored t shirt with a skeleton on it that was giving them the finger.

00;35;03;02 - 00;35;25;16
Michael
Just randomly walked in and I was standing a come down the pathway, and I stood in the door step and gone. Last chance. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you want to strike me with lightning. You better do it now. I'm going in. So. Yeah. And I offered him the chance. I said the same thing in the Catholic Church.

00;35;25;17 - 00;35;33;26
Michael
It's like you want to knock me off for coming in any chance? Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't know other.

00;35;33;28 - 00;35;34;06
Dave Quak 
Right.

00;35;34;06 - 00;36;04;22
Michael
Like you exist and see like, the Catholic priests would never much help. And I sort of, you know, I told them about certain things that were going on and the thing tried to explain stuff to them. Yeah. I was probably extremely articulate at the time to. And I sort of, you know, you're not right. You they got a bit nasty and a bit rude and a bit.

00;36;04;25 - 00;36;15;26
Michael
So I thought I was at what I was the author of was the Enemy like. Yeah, for a good couple of decades I was the enemy. Yeah. You know.

00;36;15;28 - 00;36;19;09
Dave Quak 
Yeah. I always get that when you're searching for the. God's not gonna help.

00;36;19;11 - 00;36;38;08
Michael
No. Like when when you especially like. Because it was a very quick succession. My father left in the one year. My grandmother, who had been going to church with, died the next. Yeah. So there was a very quick succession of damage. Damage and.

00;36;38;08 - 00;36;39;28
Dave Quak 
Grief. Yeah.

00;36;40;00 - 00;36;50;25
Michael
And then the bullying at school that you raised up. Because I broke down in class because of everything that happened? Yeah.

00;36;50;27 - 00;36;55;20
Dave Quak 
And kids are ruthless when someone does that man show some like. Oh, also some.

00;36;55;22 - 00;37;23;06
Michael
Yeah. So, you know, and then I did what any good Catholic boy does. I went to a priest and I explained that there were things going on, and I explained that they had these unexplainable things and that these things that weren't in accordance and like he was not very forgiving, he was not at all loving about it.

00;37;23;08 - 00;37;49;23
Michael
He was coming in kind of rude, but. At the time, you know again there's a time context. It was the time when the, the priests were being regularly found up as doing things with children. Yeah. Doing the wrong thing. So he was probably reacting more out of feel. Yeah.

00;37;49;26 - 00;38;15;07
Michael
And that okay I can't you know, now I can look back and go yeah, right. Oh forgive me, you know. Yeah. But at the time. Okay. On the enemy. Yeah. It doesn't matter. And because my grandmother passed away, I'd stopped going to church regularly. So that was the disconnect. For me, when the Catholic Church at that point.

00;38;15;10 - 00;38;29;23
Michael
Mum is not religious at all. Yeah. And not religious family. So it just became the norm to think okay well God hates me. It's fine. Yeah.

00;38;29;26 - 00;38;32;29
Dave Quak 
So you gave him a chance to smile at you as you walked through the door.

00;38;33;00 - 00;38;34;18
Michael
Oh well I absolutely did.

00;38;34;21 - 00;38;37;29
Dave Quak 
Clearly, he didn't smite you. What happened next?

00;38;38;02 - 00;39;12;01
Michael
I walked in and for the first time that I can clearly remember. I hope he's well. And, again. At the time, I didn't have the proper words for it. I just knew that there was something here that was worth looking into. Wow. It was just. It was undescribable. Like it people who were always going to church and like it, they clearly been around it.

00;39;12;04 - 00;39;48;08
Michael
They don't know how undescribable good it feels. To be able to walk in and just feel this, this power of this peace and this over sensing overwhelming sense of just love and care and it was someone who's been out in the cold as long as I had been. You there and still did. None of the words I'm using describe it like you just can't know.

00;39;48;11 - 00;40;12;29
Michael
And I walked into the little library here and there's a woman behind the desk, and I said to her, do you know where I can buy a Bible? And she said, he thought about it for a minute and then walked up and handed me this Bible. Except it was upside down or the cover.

00;40;12;29 - 00;40;13;10
Dave Quak 
Was.

00;40;13;17 - 00;40;38;27
Michael
Back from or something. It, I don't know, she just a random Bible and she said, you can have this. Okay. But he you. So. Yeah. So what, you don't want me to pay for any like, you know, that's a person that. Like what? Yeah. You walked in here randomly off the street and you just going to give me this?

00;40;38;29 - 00;40;51;27
Michael
Okay. And so I slipped in the back corner over here and, you know, so that kept my head down and around and. Yeah, I don't know what's going on here.

00;40;51;28 - 00;40;55;01
Dave Quak 
I'm trying to figure out the Protestants.

00;40;55;03 - 00;41;22;01
Michael
Trying to figure out what was going on. Like, it's, you know, it's pretty easy to just follow along. Like, you can stand when everybody else can sit when everybody else sits. You know, I remember how to pray. So I close my eyes when I needed to, etc.. Sort of a half sort of song a little bit maybe, you know, like, yeah, there's a lot of singing in this church and it's like, this is, you know, where's the hymnal book?

00;41;22;03 - 00;41;23;19
Michael
Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

00;41;23;19 - 00;41;24;11
Dave Quak 
On the screen and.

00;41;24;11 - 00;41;46;04
Michael
Yeah, exactly. And there's a band and then there's like live, you know, what is this like? I went to another church with another friend, but, you know, I was pretty heavily into drugs, so I don't really remember a lot of it. It was a similar sort of setup. So it was like, okay, I can, you know, I can.

00;41;46;05 - 00;41;47;21
Dave Quak 
So there's some for me.

00;41;47;23 - 00;42;26;11
Michael
Yeah, yeah, I can, I can muddle through this. All right, all right. I can get through. And then the, there was the, at the end the, the prayer like come down for prayer. And that's when things really hit off because I was talking to the senior pastor, the senior pastor, he. Oh, yeah. And, you know, we said some prayers and we were chatting a bit and then he gave me a right late Bible like that was actually, oh, consistent.

00;42;26;14 - 00;42;51;23
Michael
So still my favorite Bible. Still the one I carry with me, the one I referred to the most was the one he gave me. Yeah. And that was super overwhelming, intense. And they're like, oh, we're going to have morning tea afterwards. I was like, like, everyone doesn't clear out of here quickly as humanly possible and go home to sleep.

00;42;51;26 - 00;42;55;04
Michael
Yeah. That's what Catholics this what you do as a Catholic.

00;42;55;05 - 00;42;57;00
Dave Quak 
Well, as soon as you've seen the,

00;42;57;03 - 00;42;58;01
Michael
The done.

00;42;58;03 - 00;42;58;26
Dave Quak 
You done. Yeah.

00;42;58;26 - 00;43;22;20
Michael
You're done. You go home. Yeah. It's it's the Lord's day. So you go home and you sleep or you go home when you don't get out of bed for eight hours or, you know, that's. Yeah. What I was expecting was like, now and then they're all bustling and laughing and cheering and praying for each other. But oh, okay, that's weird.

00;43;22;23 - 00;43;44;01
Michael
It it was a bizarre experience. Yeah. It went on and that's like there was such peace. It's like, okay, this is where you wanted me to go. All right. I can work with that. And, you know, I'm still here now. And. Yeah, got baptized a while back.

00;43;44;04 - 00;43;45;19
Dave Quak 
Awesome.

00;43;45;21 - 00;44;14;28
Michael
That was an interesting experience. Yeah, that was my first real in front of a crowd, sort of, you know, get up in front of the crowd and. The the lead pastor was very careful in how he because they, you know, now like what's been going on and he was very.

00;44;15;00 - 00;44;34;03
Michael
It was one of those things where if you knew what he was talking about, you'd pick it up very quickly. Yeah. And he dropped enough hints and enough clues that if you wanted to, you could figure it out. Yeah, but the casual observer wouldn't really.

00;44;34;10 - 00;44;36;21
Dave Quak 
While still preserving your dignity. And.

00;44;36;28 - 00;44;38;10
Michael
Yeah.

00;44;38;12 - 00;44;43;27
Dave Quak 
And so you shared your testimony that day, too. Yeah. See, that would have been awesome.

00;44;44;00 - 00;44;48;18
Michael
That was a an experience. At least that was intense.

00;44;48;21 - 00;44;50;24
Dave Quak 
So have you been hooked into this church since then?

00;44;50;27 - 00;44;51;14
Michael
Yes.

00;44;51;14 - 00;44;57;16
Dave Quak 
And when we were walking in earlier, everyone's like, hey, my girl, like, you know, everyone, you obviously part of the furniture now.

00;44;57;23 - 00;45;23;05
Michael
Yeah. Well into furniture. You can find me here on Sunday, about an hour before services start. Yeah. Sitting here worshiping and really praying and praising the Lord while the teams warming up and practicing the worship teams that practicing. I'm a regular on the prayer meeting, early morning prayer meetings, as hard as that is.

00;45;23;05 - 00;45;48;01
Dave Quak 
So I'm hitting the hard. I once fell asleep in a prayer meeting, and then someone nudged me and said, it's your turn. And I jumped up and started praying. But they were pranking me. And so I just randomly jumped up in a prayer meeting, started praying, and everyone's like, what are you doing? So that guy's no fun. Michael, you have come a long way since that initial shaking your fist at God to now being part of a spiritual community.

00;45;48;04 - 00;45;52;24
Dave Quak 
You know, you said earlier, God, it's your fault. This way.

00;45;52;27 - 00;45;53;06
Michael
Yeah.

00;45;53;10 - 00;45;56;05
Dave Quak 
What do you think about that now?

00;45;56;07 - 00;46;29;09
Michael
I don't blame him anymore. I know now that I know this. The people I've talked to, this two thought, these two schools of thought that I can see one either. My body was a result of the fall, which. Okay, there's some validity to that idea at the very least. Or I was deliberately created this way for a reason.

00;46;29;11 - 00;46;40;09
Michael
I still don't know which ones. The truth. Yeah. I don't know. I'll get I'll find out when I ask him I suppose. Yeah. So that, that sort of.

00;46;40;11 - 00;46;44;01
Dave Quak 
Yeah. But you have peace that you're not a mistake. Please.

00;46;44;07 - 00;46;54;18
Michael
Yeah. I, I'm at peace with it now. It's fine. I don't it's nothing to worry about. No, it really is.

00;46;54;18 - 00;46;58;19
Dave Quak 
It like you're an image bearer, Michael? Like. Like God's image.

00;46;58;24 - 00;47;24;27
Michael
I'm a child of God. What else do I need? Like. Like again, you go back to the culture, the worldly culture at the moment. There's such a focus on being me, being a human being. This being nothing more. In in. I'm a child. Good, I don't care. Yeah. I don't you want to think I'm a dude?

00;47;24;28 - 00;47;50;21
Michael
Cool. Okay. That's fine. You want to think I'm a woman? Cool. That's fine. Okay. That's not an insult to me. Yeah. You know, when in what went wrong in the culture that we consider being accidentally called a woman to become an insult. Yeah. Or to be called a man? To be considered an insult that you would get upset about?

00;47;50;23 - 00;48;15;21
Michael
You know, and to the pride community members. I can gender switch by just changing my clothes. Haha. Instead of the that's the way it is. It's like yeah I go out all the time. I go out and do my weekly shopping. Yeah. Guaranteed. At least one person refers to me with a female daughter. Her niece? Yeah. Okay.

00;48;15;28 - 00;48;17;08
Michael
Okay. Okay.

00;48;17;15 - 00;48;27;14
Dave Quak 
And I can see the viewers can't see this, but you can see on your face that you legitimately aren't tied up in your gender, but you're tied up in your identity. In in God.

00;48;27;17 - 00;48;29;17
Michael
Yep. Because it all matters.

00;48;29;18 - 00;48;35;18
Dave Quak 
You know, because you're a child of God. Exactly. And that's for everyone. No matter where we're at. Oh, sexuality.

00;48;35;18 - 00;48;36;15
Michael
Absolutely.

00;48;36;19 - 00;48;42;08
Dave Quak 
Because if we're tied up in that, that's our. That's who we are. It's not. It's not enough.

00;48;42;09 - 00;49;09;07
Michael
You you go to also be careful because it could be also considered pride. Yeah. Yeah, it could be. You know, I, I know that that's probably a borderline thing, but if you're too wrapped up in your identity as I'm a big, strong dude or I'm a beautiful woman, isn't that pride? Isn't there just a little touch of pride in that.

00;49;09;14 - 00;49;09;21
Michael
Yeah.

00;49;09;21 - 00;49;12;28
Dave Quak 
The higher calling is is sons and daughters. Is your.

00;49;13;01 - 00;49;28;28
Michael
Heart. The highest calling possible is you are a child of God. Yeah. That's what matters. Your identity is you are the image of Christ. You are being conformed to his image. Yeah.

00;49;29;01 - 00;49;29;28
Dave Quak 
And he loves.

00;49;30;05 - 00;49;35;17
Michael
That's the only thing that matters. Yeah. Everything else is secondary.

00;49;35;18 - 00;49;45;02
Dave Quak 
Absolutely everything. And it literally is everything. It is. Being a parent or not, being, a millionaire or not being is, you know, none of that.

00;49;45;05 - 00;49;46;27
Michael
None of that. It doesn't.

00;49;47;01 - 00;49;58;23
Dave Quak 
It doesn't because it's all shifting, man. And in 40 years, when we meet God face to face, what's he going to say? Well done, good and faithful servant. Come and share in your master's happiness. You know.

00;49;58;25 - 00;49;59;20
Michael
Let's see.

00;49;59;22 - 00;50;08;22
Dave Quak 
Your church seems to have done a really good job in, you know, like loving you and including you and not like, have you ever failed on the outer?

00;50;08;24 - 00;50;11;02
Michael
Right at the beginning I did.

00;50;11;04 - 00;50;14;21
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And I guess that that might be also because it's a new church in new People.

00;50;14;21 - 00;50;44;14
Michael
Is exactly like. But and don't get me wrong, I absolutely love this person. Now. And this person is a confidant and a close friend. But life first, the first prayer meeting or the second prayer meeting I showed up to? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because again, I worked the night shift.

00;50;44;17 - 00;50;47;00
Dave Quak 
So you're already pretty haggard in the morning.

00;50;47;02 - 00;51;19;28
Michael
Pretty ragged in the morning. And, you know, it's a 6:00 start. And I wasn't really thinking it was blistering hot summer. So I walked in with my phones on, and I had my toenails painted. And again, you got to remember purple hair. Yeah. Ratty t shirt. Just dragged out of bed the whole lot. And this person gave me a look, and it's like it cut like a knife because it's like.

00;51;20;00 - 00;51;21;23
Michael
Yeah. Okay.

00;51;21;25 - 00;51;24;19
Dave Quak 
Because you've seen the look as well.

00;51;24;22 - 00;51;58;14
Michael
I know that look as if it was the way you should look at people. I've seen it so many times. Yes, so many people. And it's like, okay. It's like that. But now I would trust that person with my life. Yeah. And it was only ever the once. Yeah. The person I want. You are being very careful about how I describe this person, because this person might actually hear this.

00;51;58;17 - 00;52;04;23
Michael
So. But just know if you're the person I'm talking about, know I love you very much.

00;52;04;24 - 00;52;23;18
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And and everyone's on their own journey. See, you. Coming into this faith community doesn't just grow you across the faith community. Do you know what I mean? For other people to be able to see someone who's not in the box. You know what I mean? And also love, you know, you bring something to this faith community as well, Michael.

00;52;23;19 - 00;52;25;08
Michael
Well, I hope I do. You really do.

00;52;25;10 - 00;52;34;13
Dave Quak 
I do pray seeing it from, like, lighting up as on walk as you're walking in. I didn't get that. That welcome in. I'm a visitor.

00;52;34;16 - 00;52;37;08
Michael
They know me. You'll love me. Love it.

00;52;37;10 - 00;52;42;04
Dave Quak 
Okay, so they did that well. And they've discipled you. And now you're a part of the faith community.

00;52;42;05 - 00;52;42;24
Michael
Oh, yeah.

00;52;42;27 - 00;53;09;02
Dave Quak 
I pray for you that you get to keep speaking into the lives of people as you have today. Because what you've shared is a story of redemption. It's the gospel. You know, a story of us being separated from God and feeling the despair of what that's like, and then being reconciled to God and sensing that peace. You know, at that time he didn't understand it as peace.

00;53;09;04 - 00;53;10;20
Dave Quak 
And now you look back and then.

00;53;10;22 - 00;53;38;11
Michael
You learn this did not. I didn't even know what like the first time I showed up, I didn't even know why I was here. Yeah. But it was know that's how it, you know, it was, like, this is not like, Catholic people don't understand, like Christians. Protestants don't understand the Catholic mindset. Yeah, they don't really get it.

00;53;38;12 - 00;53;57;10
Michael
Like you, there's such a strict adherence to a ritual. Like. Yeah, seeing the pastor not dressed in priestly robes is a thing that I had to come to terms with. And not doing communion every week. You see, I had to come to terms with then.

00;53;57;12 - 00;54;01;04
Dave Quak 
Or even calling it communion. Don't you call it Eucharist in the Catholic?

00;54;01;11 - 00;54;05;05
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, the Eucharist and and.

00;54;05;08 - 00;54;10;14
Dave Quak 
And the wafer. Don't you have to, like, don't they put the wafer on your tongue rather than you just go and grab it out of the thing?

00;54;10;17 - 00;54;15;01
Michael
They do like things. 20, 20 change things.

00;54;15;07 - 00;54;17;14
Dave Quak 
Oh, true. Yeah. You can't Covid wait for someone?

00;54;17;18 - 00;54;54;02
Michael
Yeah. The there was a there was a distinct change there. But as a general. Yeah that's what that's what the Eucharist is. The priest things their hands out. Each individual one puts it on your tongue. Yeah. Your drink from the same cup, the whole lot. Like. Yeah. It's all very strict and regimented. And you had the little board up there that tells you which hymns are going to be sung, but you don't really know when they're going to be sung until you just sort of get the little book out and you just suddenly and the.

00;54;54;04 - 00;55;06;17
Michael
Yeah, but even like the comfy chairs here, like, yeah, you're not sitting in a hard wooden thing that you can sit there when you're bored and scratch the paint or. No, right. Yeah.

00;55;06;19 - 00;55;17;21
Dave Quak 
Pews at pews. They they're brutal. They, I think they were designed to make you sit up straight and stay away. I'm pretty sure that's the, like, church history behind it.

00;55;17;24 - 00;55;20;19
Michael
Yeah. They're pretty good at it, too.

00;55;20;21 - 00;55;28;13
Dave Quak 
Well, as we start to wind up, might. Have you got any more thoughts or encouragement for any of the people who've tuned into your story today?

00;55;28;16 - 00;55;59;23
Michael
I do. The thing I want to say to people is there's going to be a wave of people with my story coming. Okay. The more extreme versions of it with concerns two surgeries and yeah be be aware, be ready but be loving about it. Yeah. Because regardless of what they've done to their bodies, they are still children of your God.

00;55;59;23 - 00;56;31;04
Michael
Of our God. Yeah. They are. And you don't know the next prophet could have had that surgery. The next pastor might have had that surgery. It's it's hard to sort of. I understand that. There's a pervasive thing where you're worried about them changing the church. And I get that and that's a real, that's a real concern.

00;56;31;05 - 00;56;43;28
Michael
And you more see it in America. Yeah. I think it's progressive Christians. They call them. And they're concerning. But that's a whole other podcast.

00;56;44;02 - 00;56;46;03
Dave Quak 
Yeah. That's a that's a series that is. Yeah.

00;56;46;04 - 00;57;24;04
Michael
That really is. But if they are Holy Spirit filled they'll be seeking the church to change them. And the more assistance the more love that you can give them that they will become your brothers and sisters. Yeah. And they can be. Yeah. But they're going to need help especially in the beginning. Yeah. To try and understand. And I think my biggest prayer for people is stand by them.

00;57;24;07 - 00;57;33;16
Michael
With truth. Yeah. Don't cave on truth but stand by them in love as well. Love it.

00;57;33;19 - 00;57;42;12
Dave Quak 
Michael I really appreciate this chat. This has been a delightful hour. Would you mind praying for us as we start to wander?

00;57;42;15 - 00;58;20;22
Michael
Yes, Lord. As we wind up today, I would like to pray for the listeners. Them to have love and boldness. I would the wisdom to know the right things to say when the peop when new people come in. I pray in love and forgiveness. And just an absolutely overwhelming feeling of peace for all your children.

00;58;20;22 - 00;58;56;17
Michael
Lord. All around the world. They just the ones who seek you. The ones who are working hard right now, the ones just come and just show them your love. The way that you've shown it to me. Yeah. And so many others. And I pray for the boldness to stand up for truth in the face of this culture, to protect the children and to protect the two other people's children.

00;58;56;19 - 00;59;12;07
Michael
The just with your truth in your faith and bring in Jesus. Amen. Thank you so much. Your.

00;59;12;09 - 00;59;35;22
Dave Quak 
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being. Check out some bulletholes.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak. Some of that souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.

00;59;35;24 - 00;59;45;16
Dave Quak 
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Somewhere and Souls.