Misuse of Spiritual Leadership- Karl Faase

00;00;01;09 - 00;00;27;19
Dave
Welcome to sunburned Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being as a pastor that struggles with mental illness. I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of lives. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode with me.

00;00;27;21 - 00;00;34;04
Dave
We'll thank you so much for coming on Sunburnt Souls Karl Faase I feel super privileged to have you come on our show.

00;00;34;04 - 00;00;38;27
Karl Faase
Thank you. Dive into privilege. It's good to talk to you. Great to be a part of something solid.

00;00;38;29 - 00;00;55;03
Dave
You've actually been part of our family for a lot longer than you know, Carl, because we used to listen to the daily nudge on the way to school every day, and you drop pearls of wisdom. But then one time on the way home, we asked our son, you know, how's your day? And he said, it was really good.

00;00;55;03 - 00;01;00;08
Dave
I learned that I should show patience when I'm frustrated on Carl Faase and he ended.

00;01;00;08 - 00;01;02;02
Karl Faase
His.

00;01;02;04 - 00;01;14;21
Dave
He he ended his little pearl of wisdom with I'm Carl Faase And then that caught on. And for the next couple of years, every time anyone in our family dropped a pillow wisdom they would Carl Faase So.

00;01;14;23 - 00;01;21;03
Karl Faase
Well, that is what a fabulous story you have. Nice. Yeah. And, God, how is your son going?

00;01;21;05 - 00;01;35;15
Dave
He's great. He's 15 now, following Jesus for himself. He's actually home at the moment because he had a knee operation. But he's a delightful teenager. We're. Yeah. We're stoked. We don't say I'm Carl Faase all the time anymore, but maybe we need to get back into that.

00;01;35;18 - 00;01;38;05
Karl Faase
It's probably no, I, I'm Dave.

00;01;38;08 - 00;01;39;11
Dave
Yeah that's right.

00;01;39;14 - 00;01;43;10
Karl Faase
Or you probably Mr. Quak At some point they'll start quoting you today.

00;01;43;13 - 00;01;48;12
Dave
I hope so at the moment they're probably quoting Mr. Beast or someone else, but yeah.

00;01;48;14 - 00;01;49;12
Karl Faase
Well that's lovely.

00;01;49;20 - 00;01;53;00
Dave
Carl, what are you doing these days? What are you. What are you up to in your world?

00;01;53;02 - 00;02;16;20
Karl Faase
Well, we are. I ran a church for years, and probably, I ran a church called Gymea + Baptist church for people in different parts of of Australia. Going is a suburb in the southern area of Sydney, not far from Cronulla Beach. And, and, that part of Sydney. But about eight years ago we I ten years ago, Jane, my wife and I stepped out of that role that she was working for the church.

00;02;16;23 - 00;02;37;22
Karl Faase
And we created a little thing called Olive Tree Media and Olive Tree Media, quite some 50 to 80, which is about, olive tree plant in the house of the Lord. And the whole concept was creating content that churches can use, both to encourage themselves and to influence people in their circle of friends. So that's what we do.

00;02;37;22 - 00;02;47;04
Karl Faase
And a part of that is the daily nudge that we were just chatting about, which is absolutely remarkable. Isn't it amazing that one minute, can actually make an influence?

00;02;47;07 - 00;02;49;16
Dave
It's all over the world. It's going crazy. Yeah.

00;02;49;19 - 00;03;10;07
Karl Faase
Yeah. And that's fabulous. So it's been a great gift. And in fact, I was asked by the radio station in Brisbane, 96 five family. It was called at the time and, and and they said, oh, can you we're running our radio spots, the ones we've got there old. Can you do some and dive? I said, I was brave.

00;03;10;07 - 00;03;34;06
Karl Faase
I said, oh, I could probably do 40, I record, I recorded number 1000. Wow. Yeah, yeah, just just the beginning of this year. So it's just been one of those things and and Dave, it's a testament to keep turning up just your system, you know, like, not all of them are brilliant. I know that's a surprise for you to hear some of them stick.

00;03;34;09 - 00;03;58;25
Karl Faase
And so that's that's just fabulous. So, the radio spots a part of what we do, we create series and, series, from, before I finished as a senior pastor guy, me, a Baptist, we produced Towards belief. Then we've got Jesus, the game changer. Jesus game changers had three seasons, one, two and three. And then we did, because we couldn't leave our lounge rooms, let alone leave the country.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;21;14
Karl Faase
We we we did a show, a series wrapped around Australia called Faith Runs Deep. And that that's just been a wonderful series and getting. Yeah, great traction across across the nation because it's it's produced by an Australian group and it's all about Australian history and the deep influence of Jesus on our nation. So that's that's been that's been fabulous.

00;04;21;14 - 00;04;38;25
Karl Faase
So we have a little team, Olive Tree Media, I think we've, we like we said we'd like to say we punch above our weight. And so it's, it's, just a fabulous opportunity. And right now we're doing we're kind of this year, we're doing a couple of different things. One is that we're doing regional events.

00;04;38;27 - 00;04;58;10
Karl Faase
So, we do these events called unearthed and, that have myself, Colin Buchanan and one of the guests from the series. And, so we turn up. And so in Easter this year, we're going to be in Launceston. When we get into April, we're going to be in Toowoomba. And then in May, a bit of a highlight in night.

00;04;58;10 - 00;05;03;20
Karl Faase
We're going to Beef Week in Rockhampton. Did you know there was a beef week?

00;05;03;22 - 00;05;08;05
Dave
I did not I knew there was a lot of beef cattle in Rockhampton, but I didn't know they had a beef week.

00;05;08;08 - 00;05;29;16
Karl Faase
Or neither I did. I might have had a light of mine and you said, what are you doing, Kyle? And I said, well, actually, believe it or not, in January this year I was doing dairy Week, so I said, I said, I can you believe it? It might ask me to speak anything. Go dairy week. And he said, cow, you should do beef week.

00;05;29;19 - 00;05;48;20
Karl Faase
Like there's a beef week. Anyway, we did this research and briefly don't before it's huge. It's like yes, 50 60,000 people come every once every three years to Rockhampton. And so we contacted the churches up there and said, look, we do these at events, would you like us to come? And they like love you too. So call them Buchanan's coming up.

00;05;48;24 - 00;06;09;17
Karl Faase
We've got Tim Kelly who's a bull rider. So we're doing those unearthed events and we'll do six this year. And then we're also, producing a new series. It'll be called encounter, people in that Jesus. Then and now and that's being filmed now we can leave the country that that's, kind of around the world, really.

00;06;09;17 - 00;06;27;08
Karl Faase
We're filming in England. We've just we've been in Africa for a couple of weeks in January, and then in the US as well. So that'll be that'll be a fabulous series and that'll be out. There'll be released late this year. So we're sort of juggling a few things and, and looking forward to it. It's a wonderful.

00;06;27;12 - 00;06;41;07
Dave
Well yeah, it definitely isn't just I'll retire from church pastoring and then just sit around fishing. You've been busy for the last decade. That's a lot going on. And you're also, board chair on one of our favorite organizations, Samaritan's Purse.

00;06;41;07 - 00;06;41;18
Karl Faase
Yeah.

00;06;41;18 - 00;06;54;24
Dave
So my other child. So my daughter Melanie, she basically saves all our pocket money all year for the Samaritan's Purse Christmas appeal. And her goal is to always dig a well or two wells, every year. It's an amazing organization.

00;06;54;29 - 00;07;18;21
Karl Faase
Yeah, good on her. It is a great organization. There's there's a obviously Samaritan's Purse has an international board and spirits versus head office is in, Boone in North Carolina. And then so the international board is people mostly from around the US, but in a couple of other countries like the, the UK, Australia, Germany, Canada, they have a local board.

00;07;18;28 - 00;07;38;01
Karl Faase
And so the like board sort of sits under the international board. And it's it's great. We got a new CEO last year, Mark Bennett. And Mark has a long history in, ministry around the globe and all sorts of things. And, he's just a wonderful leader. So it's good organization. And great to see your daughters involved.

00;07;38;02 - 00;07;58;14
Dave
Oh, yeah. And, she loves it. She loves it. I was interested, Carl, because a couple of we I mean, I follow your Facebook, and I love all the O'Leary's church. I specifically love how it is targeted to Australian demographic. Not not all like, obviously, you know, overseas and everything too. Yeah. But it is great that you're a spokesman and a spokesperson into Australian church culture.

00;07;58;16 - 00;08;20;03
Dave
One of your posts a couple of weeks ago really caught my attention because I've been thinking about church leadership a lot. And, you know, just it seems like there's a real changing landscape in leadership and church styles, church sizes. This particular post put up just exploded with comments and discussion, and some of it was very passionate, which is great.

00;08;20;07 - 00;08;44;24
Dave
But basically, if you don't mind me reading it out, it said a mainstream newspaper made this quote about Christian ministry and its leadership ethics. And then the quote is that there's a special clique of people at the top who play by different rules from the rest a select group where family and friends could seemingly do as they pleased with the protection of an all boys network at the top.

00;08;44;26 - 00;09;03;17
Dave
For some, this was the very antithesis of the Christian message. When I read that call, I was like, yes, we need to speak into this because it's so important. And I've noticed also over the last couple of years, you've done different interviews and different discussions around that topic. What motivated you towards that specific post?

00;09;03;17 - 00;09;30;27
Karl Faase
Carl I look at it, it's sort of it's it's been sitting with me, not just that the specific words of that post, but the issue has been sitting with me for the last probably 5 to 10 years. Yeah. And anybody that's been in Christian ministry that that watches the kind of leadership landscape globally will have noticed that probably in the last maybe ten years is going back too far.

00;09;30;27 - 00;09;56;19
Karl Faase
But the last five years has been the revelations that have come out in the last five years. Absolutely appalling. Yeah. And if you'd said if you'd said to me, say, 15 years ago that these organizations would all fall because of leadership failure, I would have told you you were dreaming to use an Australian quote. Yeah, okay. You're telling me screaming like, whoo hoo!

00;09;56;22 - 00;10;20;03
Karl Faase
Who would have thought that? Yeah, that Aussie Diane would basically disappear. That, Willow Creek church would break? What? I mean, who knows how much smaller it is and what it used to be that organizations and like here in Australia, like Hillsong. And there's been another there's been another, tragic leadership failure in a major church in Melbourne in the last month.

00;10;20;06 - 00;10;43;05
Karl Faase
Today in, the news coming out of England, there's a guy that's put a, key leader in an Anglican ministry that was sort of cutting edge ten years ago, has has been charged with 33 counts of sexual assault. And the trouble is, this just goes on and on and on and on, and and it's either there's a couple of things going on.

00;10;43;07 - 00;11;20;19
Karl Faase
It's either that rising up through the church is a whole bunch of very, very dysfunctional people that that could be the case. Or we're setting up systems within organizations and churches that fail to keep people to account. Yeah. And I think it's more the second than the first. And I think that what we need to do, and that's what that post was about, you know, the idea that somebody could write that quote that you just read out in a major Australian newspaper, and that quote is actually taken straight out of a book that was released the same week.

00;11;20;21 - 00;11;55;06
Karl Faase
Gone is the Kingdom, is the book. It had, the rise and fall of Brian Houston in the Hillsong church and, and, and that book that quite should take you straight to the book. And basically nobody's really challenging the quote. Essentially that quote is accurate. Yeah. That's sort of depressing. Yeah. That, that you would be able to say that about somebody in leadership, you know, in a, in a major Christian organization and that it actually be accurate.

00;11;55;06 - 00;12;19;22
Karl Faase
So what's going on that that's the case. And the most excruciating listening of the last ten years. Well, though it's not that old, has been the rise and fall of Mars Hill. Yeah. Like with Mike Cosper. And it's excruciating because, I mean, it starts well, it kind of goes, goes through a bit of a dull patch in the middle.

00;12;19;22 - 00;12;47;24
Karl Faase
I think in a couple of episodes. But The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill is not just about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. What Mike Cosper is looking at is celebrity culture within Christian organizations and the celebrity culture where you protect the leader and you honor the leader and you back the leader, which are all kind of good things because they're honoring the person that God has raised up for that role.

00;12;48;01 - 00;13;04;25
Karl Faase
That's a good thing. But when it's done in such a way that they become unaccountable, that becomes that breeds the sorts of outcomes that we're now seeing. And I think therein lies lies a huge issue for us to deal with.

00;13;04;28 - 00;13;25;11
Dave
It is huge. And I agree with what you said, that it was hard listening the rise and fall of Mars Hill. I had to take it, you know, 20 minutes at a time because it was it was gut wrenching because especially is, you know, he was really prominent when all was really starting to, you know, invest in ministry and had a huge influence on my personal walk.

00;13;25;13 - 00;13;35;03
Dave
And then you're dealing with all this stuff behind the scenes. And I think that's one of the hard things, is when people are personally bought in. You can overlook some of those things you just mentioned.

00;13;35;06 - 00;13;57;03
Karl Faase
Yeah. Because his he only took mid Mars Hill grew exceptionally. Yeah. It's probably it's like 20 to 30,000 people were involved. And and it was seen as a successful I mean I like you read his first book The reformation read. Yeah. And I, I quite liked he's a genius. You know, everybody's being so careful. Who's this guy that's right out there?

00;13;57;06 - 00;14;23;05
Karl Faase
I need to tell you what helped. And this might inform some of the thoughts you. What helped change my mind on on Mark Driscoll. And it was way before that podcast came out in about 2012 or 13, he was interviewed by a guy I know reasonably in England, called Justin Brawley, and Justin Brawley ran a radio show on Premier Radio, which is called unbelievable.

00;14;23;07 - 00;14;52;24
Karl Faase
And on that show he would get people from different views, different sides to debate Christian, theology beliefs. It's kind of an apologetics. Yeah. Show he he ended up interviewing Mark Driscoll, and in the interview there was a bit of a difference of opinion, kind of what happened after the interview. And it was about Justin Bradley's wife, who's a pastor, and that didn't go well with Mark Driscoll anyway.

00;14;52;26 - 00;15;17;15
Karl Faase
So I had a bit of a discussion, and then Mark Driscoll went back to America and then started publicly badmouthing Justin Brierley about what what this interaction was about. So Justin Bradley's response was to say, this is being said, here's the transcript. Because it was all recorded, you make up your own mind. And Dave Driscoll's attitude was appalling.

00;15;17;15 - 00;15;42;10
Karl Faase
Yeah. And I read the transcript and I'm like, I'm done here. But if that's your attitude, you have no place in Christian ministry. Now, the the thing that the rise and fall of of the podcast, the rise and fall of Mark of Mars Hill demonstrated was that transcript of that interaction with Justin Brawley was actually a window into his character.

00;15;42;13 - 00;15;50;29
Karl Faase
And there must have been literally hundreds of people seeing the window into that character. So why did it take so long?

00;15;51;00 - 00;16;04;01
Dave
Yes. Why do you know come. Like what. What what does it take so long for the character things to catch up with. Everybody's like disillusionment. I always wonder why people put up with it.

00;16;04;03 - 00;16;26;10
Karl Faase
Yeah I think there are different. There are different kind of people and different characters at play. Know this is what we're talking about here is not gossip. And it's not just bad mouthing people. It's public. Yeah. These these are absolutely took two stories. One is Bill Hybels and one is Mark Driscoll. Now I think they quite different stories.

00;16;26;13 - 00;16;54;12
Karl Faase
Bill Hybels, had inappropriate relationships with a number of women that was subtle and in the background. Yeah. So unless those women came out, it was a bit hard for anybody else to see what was going on. Yeah. And when I did and then it was there was a few women that spoke up at first, you know, Hybels and well, I created the whole nothing to see here.

00;16;54;14 - 00;17;13;00
Karl Faase
Then, then when they, they did an internal review and came out and said nothing to see here. And then there was still pushback. And then there'd be an external review. And then it was basically absolutely clear. So in other words, that was almost like, if I can use that dreadful term, the secret sin thing. Yeah. Where was it?

00;17;13;02 - 00;17;37;11
Karl Faase
I think I think Mark Driscoll was a very different saint, because when you listen as you have to, the rise and fall of a marshall, there were numerous people. You can see his character in play. So what was going on there? Well, what was going on is that if the a really successful and there's thousands of people turning up and there's money rolling through the door and they think God is saving.

00;17;37;13 - 00;17;57;17
Karl Faase
So we kind of say God is blessing this because of the number of people. How do you stand against the person who has kind of God's aura around him? That so that's a different problem. So one is a few people where you behaved totally inappropriately and they have to sort of stand up. And that's that's hard to do.

00;17;57;24 - 00;18;23;02
Karl Faase
The other is just a failure of governance where where the governance systems did not work. And the people who who knew were simply not safe. Because once you once you get into the rise and fall of Marshall, there's there's a long and so long list of people that said, well, actually, this is what was happening. So, you know, and that that's where it's difficult.

00;18;23;03 - 00;18;54;00
Karl Faase
And if you look at even the kind of failure might tell about you, you ended up sole survivor. Bit similar. It's almost like he sits in the middle where there were numerous young men, where his interaction with them. And again, I'm not saying that there was anything, anything sexual happened, but it was just inappropriate behavior and gaslighting and, and emotional manipulation as well as so that there's a bit of a line there.

00;18;54;08 - 00;19;12;09
Karl Faase
But the point was that there were numbers of them and nobody said anything. And it's just it's just that whole notion that when you get into one of those positions, when you feel like, oh, I be God's, I think that's wrong, but it's God's in this, how do I how do I stand up and say, this is wrong?

00;19;12;12 - 00;19;27;01
Karl Faase
There's a there was a statement in the Australian of the year who, who I don't think it was a great Australian of the year. But anyway, that's another whole day. But it was like it was like getting to that issue that year. But there was a statement by it which goes like this. The standard you walk past is the standard.

00;19;27;01 - 00;19;27;22
Karl Faase
You said.

00;19;27;24 - 00;19;28;22
Dave
Okay.

00;19;28;24 - 00;19;48;06
Karl Faase
And and the interesting thing is that anybody listening to our conversation can be thinking, you know, those guys are right. You know, the leaders at Mars Hill, the leaders of Legends of Survive and the leaders of Willow Creek should have done more. You know, those those organizations should have done more. That's half true. That's part of the problem.

00;19;48;08 - 00;20;10;20
Karl Faase
But the other part of the problem is that actually, there's something for all of us in this study. And what's in or what what's in this for all of us is all of us have to speak up. Yeah. All of us, you know, like so if you if the standard you walk past is a standard that you sit which is is a great truth if you just allow things to kind of go on and on without saying anything.

00;20;10;22 - 00;20;27;29
Karl Faase
Now, just because you say something doesn't mean the whole organization is going to stand up and say, well, of course you're right. Yes. And and lots of people. And you might have been in the situations where you stood up and said, I don't think is right. And the organization's going, we're not going to stand with you. Well, at least you've done your bit.

00;20;28;01 - 00;20;53;04
Karl Faase
You know, at least you've said, okay, I've done my bit. I'm moving on. But, you don't have to run a campaign, but you have to be clear. Yeah. And in the end, then it becomes the leadership systems and governance that is at play here. But each of us, every one of us needs to kind of say when things are wrong, we need to stand up and say, this just isn't right.

00;20;53;04 - 00;20;57;05
Karl Faase
Yeah. And, and and when that happens, change happens.

00;20;57;08 - 00;21;24;05
Dave
Yeah. I love that, Carl. I especially appreciate your speaking into it because I know you love the body of Christ as I do. Like as we talk about these prickly things, it's not gossip because I don't want this to be true. You know, I wish that, these accountability process had of you know, preserved. I mean, imagine if Mars Hill had continued for another ten years or we look, I mean, Willow was all over the world and change in so many lives and, you know, just on that.

00;21;24;05 - 00;21;46;08
Dave
So I've got a real heart for people who struggle with their faith while walking with mental health issues. That's kind of my heart. And I know sometimes when you've got mental health issues, you don't feel confident to challenge somebody who is in a position of authority above you. So is it. We must walk past, like if it's not in somebody's capabilities to walk past.

00;21;46;08 - 00;21;52;17
Dave
What's another solution? In keeping organizations on track for the kingdom of God?

00;21;52;19 - 00;22;15;11
Karl Faase
Let me just speak into what you've just said from my point of view, as somebody who's a pastoral leader, that, I recognize that, you know, I had people on my staff, one in particular is, you know, just a delightful lady who who actually went through mental health issues on a on several occasions. She was, went into hospital.

00;22;15;14 - 00;22;38;23
Karl Faase
So it's not like she had a bad couple of days. It was real. It was like she was hospitalized because of it. And, you know, she stayed on our staff for a long time and we had a great relationship. But I recognized for someone like her and anybody that's listening to us that has a mental health issue that's well known, I know that there's a difficulty for you because you're thinking, well, I'll say something.

00;22;38;23 - 00;22;51;06
Karl Faase
They're going to go, well, that's the that's it, the mental health issue. Yeah. So I can I can write him off. Yeah. And yet you know there so some of the most brilliant people in the world suffered from bipolar.

00;22;51;08 - 00;22;52;05
Dave
That's right.

00;22;52;07 - 00;23;09;09
Karl Faase
And, and and in their moment. So I won't mention there's actually a great Australian writer who, who's quite open to being, having something with bipolar and the the tree. The intriguing thing is when they're up. Yeah. Absolutely bliss. Like that's why they write books in.

00;23;09;12 - 00;23;10;12
Dave
That's well that's.

00;23;10;12 - 00;23;32;14
Karl Faase
It just it's. Yeah. It's all going on. Yeah. They do dive into some low points. So the interesting thing is some people who the world would see or the community would say have mental health issues, actually have a higher rate radar for some of this stuff than anybody else. Yeah. Because it, because there's just so much going on for them.

00;23;32;17 - 00;23;46;10
Karl Faase
So firstly it's to recognize that yeah okay. There are issues and there is the possibility that people are going to write you off. And that's pretty key. I think the second thing in all of it, so just it's a bit like just keep that in.

00;23;46;11 - 00;23;48;04
Dave
Yeah. That's right. Okay. Okay.

00;23;48;07 - 00;23;50;22
Karl Faase
Anybody. Yeah. Yeah. And anybody listening to me would regard.

00;23;50;23 - 00;23;53;03
Dave
Oh absolutely. Absolutely.

00;23;53;06 - 00;24;25;24
Karl Faase
The second thing is in all of these situations you've got to deal with facts not perceptions. Yeah that's really tricky because there are people that have said, I just I don't think that relationships right between, say, a leader and somebody else. Yeah. And there are times I can remember when somebody came up to me, to this particular lady when I was working in the church, came up to me and said, I think there's something not right about that relationship.

00;24;25;26 - 00;24;50;09
Karl Faase
And I said, you know, I've had conversation. I know that they're close because of this, this and this, and I've had conversations with that staff member and this, this and this, and, you know, everything's fine. You know? Well, 18 months after the staff member resigned, it turned out that the lady was wrong. And and that's what's tricky because a perception might actually be accurate.

00;24;50;09 - 00;25;07;26
Karl Faase
Yeah a perception and and and when you ask the question people are not always honest. Yeah. Like that's part of the problem you know. And that's why you know, if you go back to I'm going to come back to your point, but just digress for a minute to go to Ravi Zacharias. I mean, that was just an appalling story.

00;25;07;26 - 00;25;32;08
Karl Faase
If anybody's followed that story. Yeah. If Ravi Zacharias actually took a young man with him overseas to, to demonstrate to the world that he was an upright citizen. And you just think when you read about what was happening, you know? So. Yeah. So people who have a potentially to behave in morally questionable ways will also be questionable in how how honest they.

00;25;32;08 - 00;25;34;25
Karl Faase
Yeah. That any of that stuff. So that's.

00;25;34;25 - 00;25;35;09
Dave
That's.

00;25;35;09 - 00;25;58;06
Karl Faase
True. So that's where this all becomes very difficult. But the other thing to say is recognizing that you can't just run ahead with just perceptions. You can't just rush off to good leadership and say, I guess what I know to be the case. But but the other thing to say is that there are people in the organization that you trust.

00;25;58;08 - 00;26;17;21
Karl Faase
There ought to be that you trust that you can have a conversation with. Yeah. And and in a sense, once you've had that conversation, your job is I don't I don't think that some people would disagree with this. I don't think your job is to become the kind of crusader on this, but your job is to say, I've had the conversation.

00;26;17;23 - 00;26;44;28
Karl Faase
I've been before God, before my friends. I've been honest and upfront. I've given the facts and I have to leave it with them. Yeah, and and I think that in a lot of situations, that's what you do. And I think that that if, if, if there's a few people having those conversations then, then it can come out. The other thing to say too is, is a question about how do I say this?

00;26;45;00 - 00;26;55;12
Karl Faase
If you, have serious concerns about the credibility of the leaders of an organization or church are involved with, then you need to consider whether you should be part of it.

00;26;55;14 - 00;26;56;13
Dave
Okay?

00;26;56;16 - 00;27;29;05
Karl Faase
And that's hard. You know, at what point do you go, you know, I just I don't think I can be giving my time, my energy and my finances to an organization that don't doesn't take governance seriously. Yeah. And I think that's that's a long way down the track. Can I just broach while the subject died in this area, and that is, there could be people who are listening to your podcast who who are in that space where they've had mental health issues.

00;27;29;08 - 00;27;54;08
Karl Faase
And the, you know, that come and go through these times and they're also they are also sometimes the vulnerable people they get used by, by immoral leaders. And I want to say to anybody who's listening to this that that's happened to you, you need to find someone to talk to. If that's happening to you right now, you need to find someone to talk to.

00;27;54;10 - 00;28;12;24
Karl Faase
If you are, being gaslit by a leader that says to you, all you know is this, you know, no, maybe this is not right. But God wants us to do this because this is important, you know? So to keep me going and your this relationship, which has to stay sacred, is really important for me. And it's important for God.

00;28;12;24 - 00;28;30;22
Karl Faase
And none of that's true. It's immoral, it's inappropriate, and you're being used. And so anybody in that situation needs to get help. They need to get they they need to talk to someone because it will. I know how you say this day, but it's only going to end in tears. Yeah.

00;28;30;25 - 00;28;31;12
Dave
Yes.

00;28;31;14 - 00;28;58;01
Karl Faase
Yeah. It's never it's never going to end well. And so that if you're listening to this and you are because you know, you know, you died, had your own issues. And this is a really encouraging space for anybody listening. You're also in a vulnerable spot for, for toxic leaders. And, and I would hate to think anybody listening to us today would be in that space and would stay there.

00;28;58;04 - 00;29;00;12
Karl Faase
It's really important that they don't.

00;29;00;14 - 00;29;23;01
Dave
Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that, Carl, because I 100% agree. You know, one of your, questions of reflection after that post was, yeah, that ladies need to ask themselves, how do we use our access to ministry resources? Now, I don't want to minimize a human being to a ministry resource. Yeah, obviously God doesn't see us that way at all.

00;29;23;04 - 00;29;54;12
Dave
But I get I do get upset when I see leaders treating interns or volunteers as ministry resources for their own, just for their own will, you know, mowing the lawn or cleaning the cut, things that don't have anything to do with ministry, mentoring. I mean, sometimes there's just some stories you hear of people just being used by the church, not, you know, we want God to use us.

00;29;54;14 - 00;29;56;21
Dave
We don't want people to use us.

00;29;56;23 - 00;30;24;21
Karl Faase
I know of a story, and I know because, a good friend of our family, her son was a ministry intern. And, in one situation, you know, the sun is turning up, driving to getting up from his bed 4:00 in the morning to drive across to pick up the ministry leader and drive the ministry leader to the airport at, like, 530, 6:00 in the morning.

00;30;24;23 - 00;30;54;24
Karl Faase
When the ministry leader, his whole family's asleep in the house. Yeah, yeah, you're right like that. And if your ministry internets, that is not your job and it's not. And I think that, one of the, one of the, I mean, everybody has done a story on Hillsong, which is a little depressing, but one of the things and some of them have tried to be balanced, and I think in a in a sense, a lot of them have tried to be reasonably balanced.

00;30;54;24 - 00;31;21;08
Karl Faase
But one of the points they make is they call it slave ish labor. And and I know the point that they're making where people turn up for interns and, and they want to serve. And there's things that needs to be need to be done. But in this setting, it's that's not appropriate, you know, and that's where you're right, that you're using somebody's good heart and good nature in a way that's simply inappropriate.

00;31;21;09 - 00;31;45;03
Karl Faase
Yeah. And you're right, I don't think I don't think babysitting. I don't think cleaning. I don't think car washing. I don't think mowing lawns and I don't think transport at odd times. None of that gets into an intern role, and that becomes using people in a way that that shouldn't be happening. And again, anybody that's listening to us and says, well, I do that all the time.

00;31;45;06 - 00;32;03;21
Karl Faase
You need to have a conversation. Yeah. And the come and the conversation they have trouble is the way this goes down. And you know, this the way this goes is you have the conversation. They're like, well, you know, here's here's Peter who used to be a good guy. But Peter is now getting negative and he's becoming critical and he's got a critical spirit.

00;32;03;28 - 00;32;27;07
Karl Faase
Yeah. And we need to pray for Peter because Peter's critical spirit, you undermine the, you know, the ministry that God is having us do. Yeah. And we have a Peter is no, you don't you just it's just you calling people to account. And I would hope in my best moments, Dave, I hope that all of this that's coming out has people thinking through.

00;32;27;09 - 00;32;48;27
Karl Faase
Okay, maybe we should rethink what we do here. One of the stories, if I can just say that kind through which sort of paints what you're saying that has come through again on or in Peter on Hillsong. I met producer a couple of times. I've a number of people still got Hillsong that are friends of mine. They've done a power of good across the globe, and they're wonderful people.

00;32;49;03 - 00;33;10;25
Karl Faase
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Some rethinks in how they were functioning. And one of one of the things that has been pointed out is you've got these young women and men, but mostly women coming from overseas. They're 18, 19, 20. They fly to Australia. They had the only people I know or at the Hillsong College, at Hillsong Church.

00;33;10;27 - 00;33;34;04
Karl Faase
They then in a house. So the house is kind of paid for. And the sharing rooms. So the that's college and the church is their landlord. They then pay to go to a college and do a course. The college is there, you know, lecturer and and and president of the college or principal of a college. And then they go to the church.

00;33;34;04 - 00;34;05;17
Karl Faase
And the pastor of the church is from the same organization. So every person in their life all comes from the same group. And if something goes wrong in all of that, where do you go? And, one of the one of the, one of the stories that that, how they could use this in his book that he believes that was in the article people, the synod which changed a lot, was a young lady, I think a name was Anna Crenshaw, and she was the daughter of a pastor that came to Australia to do the Hillsong course was really inappropriate.

00;34;05;17 - 00;34;31;00
Karl Faase
They touched by a young man from from the leadership of this church. Who had drunk too much, you know, just a horrible story. Awful story. But when she complained she basically was given the photos and there's and there's it's not her whole world is her home. The college, her, her, her church, her voluntary. Everything is the same people.

00;34;31;03 - 00;34;54;03
Karl Faase
And but it was because her father was a well-known pastor in the US, and there were a number of people who supported him and her that this young guy was taken to court and and found guilty. Yeah. He wasn't he there wasn't a a what do you call that when they don't hold the crime against you? You were found guilty that.

00;34;54;04 - 00;35;13;29
Karl Faase
Yeah. Kind of idea. But the interesting thing is that in that situation, that young man, after it had happened and it was reported and reported to the leadership, he kept his job free. Yeah. He should not have kept his job like in in no place, you know, just a church. If you did that anyway, you would not keep your job.

00;35;14;01 - 00;35;41;09
Karl Faase
And it's one of those it's one of those things that and that's where this quote that you read before, it's like he was the son of a key leader within the organization. And it's a bit like if you're if you're on the in-crowd, you can do what you're like almost. And if you're some kid from America paying board and paying like your up in this mixture and we need to guard against that as much as we possibly can.

00;35;41;11 - 00;36;05;17
Dave
We do because there's that structural inequality and yeah, you know and and not only that, like you said, even just spiritually, you know, you come from another country and you're under an organization who's saying this is what God would have you do, or this is how you behave as a disciple or this is Christianity. Not only are you standing for your own rights against a person, you do feel like you're doing something against God.

00;36;05;17 - 00;36;11;23
Dave
It's spiritual abuse, and it's my least favorite of all. All abuse is terrible. It's all it.

00;36;11;23 - 00;36;31;12
Karl Faase
Is. And I the the interesting thing about all of that, too, is that if you take some of those other people, like I listened to and read Bill Hybels stuff over the years. Yeah. Now nobody say to Bill Hybels, what you were teaching was not right. And, and, and therefore you behaved badly. So he didn't keep to his own standards.

00;36;31;12 - 00;36;51;19
Karl Faase
Yes. So he gave great standards. He just didn't give up to them. He told everybody how they should behave with people in their staff roles, members of the opposite sex, and how they should behave towards them. He didn't do any of those. It wasn't like Ravi Zacharias was out. They say, look, it's a good idea to have a few, mistresses that you support on the side because it's good for your ministry.

00;36;51;19 - 00;37;12;13
Karl Faase
Healthy. That was never said. And, you know, nobody in any of these organizations, really. They all say the right stuff. It's just so that are delivered and and the key is, I know this is a surprise to you, Dave. I'm not perfect. Yeah. And, so what do I need? I need people around me that will call me to account when I start behaving.

00;37;12;13 - 00;37;41;11
Karl Faase
Why is it inappropriate? If nobody takes me on? Then my failed human nature will lead me into the wrong spaces. Yes, that's the piece in all of this, with none of us should trust ourselves. And it's not because we're all awful. It's just good. We're all human. And so if we don't have places that where people call us to account, if we are part of the group, as that quote said, which, you know, pretty much you can do what you like because no one's going to call you, call you into account.

00;37;41;14 - 00;38;07;01
Karl Faase
That becomes the issue. And look, I think we all need to say is that we've sort of talked a bit about the sexual, inappropriate behavior, but that was not the problem for Mark Driscoll. No, his his was just leadership. The other issues on a number of organizations. I don't know how many people know this, but Paul Young, each who at one stage ran the biggest church in the world in South Korea, was jailed for financial impropriety.

00;38;07;01 - 00;38;07;28
Dave
I didn't know that.

00;38;08;00 - 00;38;40;25
Karl Faase
Yeah. That's interesting. He came to Australia a number of times. And if you look at Google, his name, it just, poor financial behavior. Kong, he who rang a big church in Singapore, I think it is Kong. He again he was jailed and it was he was jailed again for for inappropriate use of funds. If you look at the the Hillsong Church in East, in New York and Eastern America, Carl Lentz fell sexually and that was that's very high profile and well known.

00;38;40;25 - 00;39;03;02
Karl Faase
But but what I'm talked about a lot is there's a number of financial practices there that were entirely inappropriate. So it's not just the kind of women thing. It's it's and sexual thing. There's also power dynamics and how people use their roles. And there's also finances and how people use their finances. Yeah. And all of those things need to be carefully watched.

00;39;03;02 - 00;39;03;16
Karl Faase
Yeah.

00;39;03;18 - 00;39;21;07
Dave
Now I appreciate that call. I mean, yeah, it it just hits at the heart of so many Christians when this stuff happens, you know, and yeah, then someone would say, well, you know, you're reliance needs to be on God, not on Ben. Yeah, that's true. But these are people who have influenced and change people's lives and spoken into words.

00;39;21;07 - 00;39;44;07
Dave
I didn't know about Kony, and I saw him preach maybe 15 years ago. It was amazing. I didn't know that. Carl, you're speaking, writing, producing content. You'll extremely influential in, in my opinion, one of Australia's best representatives of the Kingdom of God. And I would hate to see you join the list. So how do you guard yourself against all this just for anyone listening?

00;39;44;09 - 00;39;48;16
Karl Faase
Well, firstly, I made a decision a number of years ago to marry. Well.

00;39;48;19 - 00;39;52;26
Dave
Yes. Okay. Stop there. That's the best place to start. Tell us about your life.

00;39;52;26 - 00;40;14;04
Karl Faase
Yeah. James. Just fabulous. Enormously talented. She's the producer of everything. Like she. If you look at all they have shows, she's a producer. And she does a lot of great work on that. Cheap, nice. But but the notion that she speaks into my life regularly, I mean, it's part of who she is. So I married well, but it's part of our relationship.

00;40;14;08 - 00;40;33;29
Karl Faase
She's got permission to disagree with me. Yeah. I don't always appreciate that. I want you to know that. Don't tell her I said that. But it's. But that's it. Having. And so that's just an example of having people around you that disagree with you. Yeah. There are, there are people who disagree with you all the time and they're just annoying I know that.

00;40;34;01 - 00;41;02;09
Karl Faase
So you've got to be wise. But it's the notion of you're not above disagreement, you're not above somebody saying I'm not sure about that. So have those people in your life. Secondly, the other thing is your organization. So Olive tree is a small organization, but we have a board. The chairman of the board is now retired. He retired early, but he was a lawyer who worked for a very large law firm in in Sydney, and he was one of the partners of the law firm.

00;41;02;12 - 00;41;28;05
Karl Faase
We then have, you know, quite a significant board and the whole, the whole notion of the board is I report to them and they call us mate to account on what we do. So in all of that, every meeting, there's an account, there's an accounting for finances. One of my pet peeves, which I think is a blind spot in the church, is not getting off your question, but it's in the same space.

00;41;28;08 - 00;41;48;20
Karl Faase
Is that you? We have we have people who work in churches. And this came out in some of the books that have been written where they are receiving an a full time wage and they're working full time while they're working full time, receiving a full time wage. And in that time they write books, when they sell their books, they get royalties.

00;41;48;23 - 00;41;52;10
Dave
I've always wondered about this, too, Carl. I don't know how that works.

00;41;52;12 - 00;42;10;25
Karl Faase
Well, you know, I don't know that there'd be too many commercial country companies who are paying, you know? Five. Dave. Full time workforce at $100,000 a year because you're so good at what you do. And, and during your time, the idea of preparing talks for our organization. And so you do that, and then you write a book and pull the royalties.

00;42;10;25 - 00;42;36;06
Karl Faase
Yeah. There's a there's a blind spot. And I think and then the other thing too again this is come out in the papers that were released in to the government to Andrew Wilkie, the independent from Tasmania, and he got 17 ring binders of accounts from the church and it was discovered that, you know, there's this there's this little kind of nice relationship where they'll bring two dogs to Australia.

00;42;36;06 - 00;42;58;23
Karl Faase
This is common knowledge, gets paid $100,000 to speak at the conference, but then also the speakers from here go back to there and they get paid a lot of money. And there's this, this kind of relationship where you sell books, you pay them speaking to. It's all on top of a full time job. Now, I would suggest that that's not good financial accounting.

00;42;58;26 - 00;43;21;12
Karl Faase
I would suggest that that's not good accountability. And I think then why isn't there somebody going, should we be doing that. Is that wise. So there's all kind of like because a lady called Natalie Moses who was in the, in the kind of accounting bookkeeping department was complaining about some of these things, saying, I really don't think you can do that.

00;43;21;13 - 00;43;38;23
Karl Faase
I don't think can move money around like that and was fobbed off. So in the end, her response was, well, I'll let the I'll let the whole community see. And when the whole community sees what's going on, that's not good. There's, there's an old statement's been around a long time, which is very old. You get it when I say it, because it doesn't really work.

00;43;38;23 - 00;43;51;24
Karl Faase
Now. But if you're in a meeting, in a board meeting and you're discussing a decision you're going to make, somebody in the room says, so how will this raid on the front page of tomorrow's paper?

00;43;51;26 - 00;43;52;27
Dave


00;43;53;00 - 00;44;19;04
Karl Faase
Yeah. Of course we don't have papers. We don't have front pages anymore. Now it's a it's a Facebook page. It is. But it's like it's what they tried to say is we can make, we can justify this between the five of us sitting in this room and saying this is a great idea. But when, when that's put out to the general populace and the people who are funding us through their gifts, how is it going to look then.

00;44;19;07 - 00;44;37;15
Karl Faase
And I think that's a test that needs to happen more often. Yeah. And that's that notion of, you know, we keep it to ourselves. We don't tell anybody. It's all very secret. If it's, you know, then if anybody breaks the secretive inner circle that somehow we're letting God and the team down, we're going to break that down with it.

00;44;37;16 - 00;44;56;19
Karl Faase
Everything should be transparent. If you receive funds from the community, your book should be transparent. Your you should be audited. People should be able to see the audit, the outcomes of of what you do. We're in the middle of our audit, David. Strike me absolutely nuts. Yeah, yeah, these these auditors keep asking for stuff. It's so annoying.

00;44;56;21 - 00;45;18;03
Karl Faase
But that's that's the point of an independent board. That's the point of an independent auditor. That's that's being and it's it's all of those things. And the trouble is, when you start sweeping those under the carpet and when you start packing your board that you answer to with your friends. Yeah, that's in bad space.

00;45;18;03 - 00;45;21;28
Dave
That's right. If they yes, man is just same as not having a board anyway. Yeah.

00;45;22;01 - 00;45;39;29
Karl Faase
Yeah I mean it's a it's a great it's always good to have a board that likes you you know because they're all they I agree with everything you say. And you have an idea and they go brilliant. And you're in your mind go, cos I'm not. I remember a board member saying wants to be years ago. I said, come up with this idea and said, I think we should do this.

00;45;39;29 - 00;45;53;24
Karl Faase
And Toby was unable at the time. He said, no, that's that's a nice goal. I think that's a complete waste of time. I can tell you that then that I didn't. That idea died in a nanosecond.

00;45;53;24 - 00;45;55;08
Dave
Yes.

00;45;55;10 - 00;46;15;25
Karl Faase
And you need those people. You do. And so it's it's all of that means. And I remember looking at another board years ago, I want to talk about who it was. Doesn't really matter. And I looked at who was on this particular board and I thought to myself, that's completely. But they're just all ministry people. They're all people who are kind of ministry leaders and they're all that person's friends.

00;46;15;25 - 00;46;39;07
Karl Faase
That's not a board. That's a group that might get together for coffee and and taken off and taken. So it's an agenda. Yeah, totally. So you so this goes back I mean, this is really related to your question. How do you look after yourself. Yeah, it was a number of things that you need to do. You know, clearly Mary will have good friends, but be in a place where you're accountable and allow yourself to be in accountable.

00;46;39;10 - 00;47;00;13
Karl Faase
Be transparent as much as you can with all that you do. And I think in all of this stuff, be honest. Jordan Peterson. Now, half of your listeners will like the fact that I mentioned Jordan Peterson, the other half of just turned off. Yes. And I get that Jordan Peterson is a really divisive character, and I'm not standing up.

00;47;00;13 - 00;47;10;26
Karl Faase
He's saying he's a Christian. We should write all these stuff. But one of these in his book, 12 rules for life, there's a check that it goes something like, be honest or at least don't lie.

00;47;11;02 - 00;47;12;07
Dave
Yeah.

00;47;12;10 - 00;47;36;11
Karl Faase
And, you know, I reckon there's a few Christian leaders I've met who could actually learn from that state. Yeah. Where things are set in a way where you go, well, that's true, but that's also a bit of spin. Yeah. You know, and it's, it's a bit like just ask yourself, is this honest not I mean, being honest like just be rude to people.

00;47;36;11 - 00;47;59;27
Karl Faase
But yeah. No that's a problem. Yeah. I'm seen the kind of honest to everybody around them and they just they just rude, not noxious. I don't mean like that. I don't mean like that, you know. Well, how do I look? You look awful. You know, that's not a great way forward. You know that? I'm not saying that. But I'm saying in what you say about yourself, what you say about your ministry, what you say about your finances, you know, I've.

00;48;00;06 - 00;48;15;02
Karl Faase
I've had a mate who's now helping us in our ministry, but a couple of years ago, you know, he's a very wealthy guy. And he was chatting to me and he said, you know, I'd like to help. Can I help? And I actually said, this is really hard to do that because you said, well, actually, we don't need it right now.

00;48;15;04 - 00;48;35;11
Karl Faase
I'll let you know when we do. Yeah. Because because when we were in that particular situation, we had a contract and there was but that's that's just being honest. And when you are in nature. So actually now we are in need and a God ring me last night I was on the phone with a guy last night who said to me, listen, I said, I, we have this financial a bit more short with this new series.

00;48;35;18 - 00;48;52;12
Karl Faase
What how are you going? And I said, can I I'll talk to you in September because there's a whole bunch of things happening and the end of financial year and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, I know that it's the end of the year way behind he, he will he will help us out. Yeah. But it would be so easy to say.

00;48;52;12 - 00;49;13;29
Karl Faase
All right. Yeah we did we did another 100 dick today. You know if you could keep that in that'd be great. It's actually dishonors so it's it's one of those things where you need to, you know, get the finances in order to get this role or to get that speaking opportunity or to get this contract. You start saying things that put you in the best light for that opportunity.

00;49;14;05 - 00;49;31;15
Karl Faase
Yeah. Every time you've got to ask yourself, is that really true? Is that really accurate? I'm not trying to pretend I get it right all the time, but I try and ask that question all the time. And you need people around you that are holding you to account in all of those modes.

00;49;31;17 - 00;49;52;18
Dave
I love that, yeah. Being open, the challenge so important. And I appreciate what you just said about the true. The true true. Be honest. At least don't lie. Like we can omit things in order to make things more palatable and going back to the fact that it's, you know, a ministry, it's easy to justify it as God's blessing or whatever else like this.

00;49;52;18 - 00;49;54;16
Dave
Just lay it on layers.

00;49;54;19 - 00;50;15;29
Karl Faase
And that's where, you know, we need to put all these things in place. But going back to the Ravi Zacharias thing, yeah, all those things were in place. Yeah. And you know, but if you're, if you also toxic is an individual that, that you are behaving in this way, there's almost nothing that can stop that. And, and I recognize that.

00;50;16;05 - 00;50;39;18
Karl Faase
But you know, so that's the way of being truly a self. And look yourself in the mirror and go, I'm living what I say. I believe what I say is true. And I'm honest to myself, my wife, my kids, my board and my family. Yeah, those things are true. You are so much further ahead. Then how can I scam more?

00;50;39;19 - 00;50;58;24
Karl Faase
Because I'm a bit concerned about my finances. How can I, you know, how can I make myself look good in this situation? None of that is helpful. And I think all of these stories that are coming out basically say everything's going to end up on the front page of the paper. Yeah. It or the, you know, or the next Facebook post or the next X or Twitter feed.

00;50;58;25 - 00;51;05;11
Karl Faase
I mean, it's all going to be out at some point. So you might as well be honest now. Yeah. Because basically everyone will know eventually.

00;51;05;17 - 00;51;30;02
Dave
So true Carl, face it, it's been such a blessing having you. I was wondering if it would be okay to finish by getting you to pray for both the listeners, but also the leaders that are listening to this in the areas or blind spots that we need to pay attention to, that God would highlight that and we would see nationwide a massive reduction in this escalation, a scandal.

00;51;30;09 - 00;51;47;21
Karl Faase
Yeah. I mean, let's let's take a moment. Pray. Yes, Lord, as we come to you, we come to you as broken people, who recognize our need for you. Yeah. And we need we come to you again today to say we're sorry, because we are the people that you call us to be. And, Lord, we pray for every person that's called into leadership.

00;51;47;21 - 00;52;11;19
Karl Faase
We pray your hedge of protection around them, not to protect them from their poor choices, but to protect them to make good choices. I pray that they would have great friends. I pray that their marriages would be strong. I pray that they, they would honor their kids. Their kids would honor them. I pray that their organizations would flourish because they are working well under the Kingdom of God in godly values.

00;52;11;22 - 00;52;31;03
Karl Faase
Lord, I pray for every person that's, listening with David right today that seeing are saying things that they're concerned about, are seeing toxic relationships with toxic behavior who even themselves might be in a difficult, relational behavior with the leader and, Lord, I pray for them right now. I pray that you give them clarity. I pray that you'd know.

00;52;31;03 - 00;52;50;24
Karl Faase
They'd know they loved by you. I pray that you give them friends around them that would support them. I pray for a good outcome. Lord, we want to see the church within Australia. We want to see Christian organizations within Australia flourish and make a difference. But Lord, we know that will only happen when we live out the values of the Kingdom of God.

00;52;50;25 - 00;53;10;12
Karl Faase
And we pray that you would help us to live that out. You would help us court to call other people to live that out. And we pray that that they would see that happen with the generation that is emerging in leadership across. And you ask all of us, in Jesus name.

00;53;10;14 - 00;53;33;25
Dave
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out Some battles.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on. Any major provider will contact us directly to book us to preach or speak some of that souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.

00;53;33;27 - 00;53;41;06
Dave
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead.