Generational Healing and the Restoration of Family with Sarah Sibi Thomas

00;00;01;09 - 00;00;27;22
Dave Quak 
Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being as a pastor that struggles with mental illness. I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of life. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.

00;00;27;25 - 00;00;34;13
Dave Quak 
All right, so many souls. You guys are super blessed. This morning we have Sarah Sibi Thomas with us, so thank you for being here, Sarah.

00;00;34;19 - 00;00;36;03
Speaker 2
Oh, thank you for having me today.

00;00;36;04 - 00;00;49;05
Dave Quak 
My pleasure. We've, for the listeners, Sarah and I have been trying to tee up this chat for months and everything's come against it, but today we are here. So thank you. Why don't you tell us, Sarah Sibi, what is with the Sibi?

00;00;49;08 - 00;01;16;29
Speaker 2
Okay, I love it. I'm married to an Indian from Kerala. We met at Bible College in Sydney in 2017 and we got engaged quickly after and then married quickly after that. One year on and in the engagement period, my husband was telling me about Indian culture, which is that the wife takes on the husband's first name as her last name, and I just couldn't get my head around that because I was like, I'm going to be Sarah Sibi.

00;01;16;29 - 00;01;33;13
Speaker 2
And I mean, to be honest, it's confusing enough for people now. They're like, wait, so you're not Sarah Thomas, you're Sarah Sibi Thomas. But essentially what happened was I was praying about it and God's been telling me for years, I'm going to make you a queen. Wow. And Sarah means princess. So I was like, oh, sweet, I got an upgrade.

00;01;33;15 - 00;01;52;00
Speaker 2
How does that work? And when I was praying about it, I just randomly said to Sibi one day, what does she mean? And you didn't know? So we googled it together. And it means king. No way. So I was like, oh my gosh, I have to take your first name as my last name, but I need to take Thomas as well, because otherwise.

00;01;52;00 - 00;02;08;19
Speaker 2
Sarah Sibi and introducing you as Sibi is just going to be way too confusing. But it's just a beautiful part of like God's story for our lives and how he's always known that I was going to marry Sibi, and he's always been telling me, you're going to become a queen. So yeah, I married a king and now I'm a queen.

00;02;08;26 - 00;02;11;08
Dave Quak 
I love it. And have you got any princes or princesses?

00;02;11;08 - 00;02;11;29
Speaker 2
I do.

00;02;12;00 - 00;02;12;24
Dave Quak 
Tell us about them.

00;02;12;27 - 00;02;34;02
Speaker 2
I've got a little princess Aiden, who's four, and God gave me her name. Yeah. There's a beautiful back story, but we essentially had a miscarriage quite early on in our marriage. And I'd always had the name Grace for a little girl, and I'd already been speaking life over Grace and was just devastated when we lost that bub.

00;02;34;04 - 00;03;05;14
Speaker 2
And one of my biggest pains was. But God, I've always I've only I've had grace for a girl. And I always knew I was going to have a girl and then a boy. And I was at a conference, a women's conference, just devastated. And this beautiful verse came up on the screen that says, I will I will create Eden from the desert like, I wish I could remember, verse, the verse, but it essentially was saying, out of your deserts and out of your wastelands, out of your pain, I will create, I'll bring back Eden.

00;03;05;16 - 00;03;26;01
Speaker 2
And for me, I was like eight and just jumped out at me and I texted my husband and said, we've got our new girl's name, Eden. And I always prayed that, you know, all those hard seasons, back to late nights and figuring out breastfeeding. I always prayed that it would actually bring me back closer to God, that I'd feel back in those moments.

00;03;26;01 - 00;03;46;14
Speaker 2
I was back in the garden with him. Yeah. And then my little boy, Emmanuel, even before I was a Christian, I had the name Emmanuel set apart for my son. But now, my gosh, since he's come into our world, I can only tell you God has become so much more profound and near. And I do think speaking at his name, you're just confessing.

00;03;46;14 - 00;03;54;05
Speaker 2
God's with us. God's with us. So, yeah, they've both got beautiful prophetic names and they're amazing. They're toddlers. So it's full.

00;03;54;05 - 00;03;59;06
Dave Quak 
On. Oh, yeah, you look bright and vibrant, but you've been up all night, right?

00;03;59;09 - 00;04;13;03
Speaker 2
My little boy has hand, foot and mouth. So, yeah, he's not happy. I slept with him face to face with me last night, coughing all over me. But yeah, I've had a coffee, so I'm good. And we've been praying day. So the Spirit of God is here.

00;04;13;05 - 00;04;28;26
Dave Quak 
And mama bears have got some sort of ability to be able to dig deep and keep pushing on. I do really believe there's a gift on mama's life's just to keep going. I know I couldn't do it. I'd be so hangry and grumpy by like midday every day. I think.

00;04;28;29 - 00;04;31;09
Speaker 2
That's real. It has real. It is.

00;04;31;09 - 00;04;46;08
Dave Quak 
Real. You've spent a lot of time cooking hours in libraries. Sarah, I looked at your CV. You have got some proper, like, qualifications. You got O.T., you got counseling, you got theology. Where's the hunger for that come from?

00;04;46;10 - 00;05;07;28
Speaker 2
Not me. Not from, you know, obedience school, 100%. So I got I recommitted my life. I'll say, when I was finishing O.T. and I had literally said, I will never study ever again. I hate it, I hate it with all my being. I'm good at it because I'm very driven. But, go ahead. You just never say never to God.

00;05;08;01 - 00;05;28;16
Speaker 2
Then I got led into, Bible college. I yeah, after getting saved, I just felt like I needed to reset. Needed to figure out who I am in his eyes and who he is. And so I got whisked off to Bible college. I had, yeah. Not to the great delight of my parents. I think everybody was a bit like, what's going on?

00;05;28;16 - 00;05;30;14
Speaker 2
She's a Christian now, and everything's changed.

00;05;30;15 - 00;05;39;06
Dave Quak 
And especially because you just conquered it, which is such a hard degree. Yeah. And then you're into a space where you could be working and making big bucks, and then you go to Bible college.

00;05;39;08 - 00;06;08;19
Speaker 2
Okay. Very differently. And then, yeah, I worked at the Bible College after I finished studying there for a year and a half, I think two years. And then God pulled me back into it for a season. I yeah, I can only say it was the Holy Spirit because there was no desire me to ever go back to O.T. had actually canceled my O.T. registration and everything, and a month before it was due to completely, evaporated.

00;06;08;19 - 00;06;26;23
Speaker 2
I guess I felt this nudge in my heart, like, reset, restart. It. And then a woman at church approached me and said, oh my gosh, I've just heard you used to be an okay, do you know anyone that can come and work for me? And I was 20 weeks pregnant and moving to the Gold Coast. And I said, well, what do you do anyway?

00;06;26;24 - 00;06;45;18
Speaker 2
She ended up employing me when I was 30 weeks pregnant, and we were moving to the Gold Coast, and it was the border closures while Covid was happening. And then I worked for her for 2 to 3 years, and then God dropped in my spirit pure heart therapies and the rest is history.

00;06;45;22 - 00;06;47;29
Dave Quak 
Tell me about pure hot therapies.

00;06;48;03 - 00;07;12;02
Speaker 2
Well, again, it's only God. I was literally sitting at my kitchen desk having my quiet time. My baby was asleep in 2020. I think it was a Sunday. We'd just gotten back from church and I was reading the Beatitudes, and Matthew five eight jumped out at me. It says, blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God face to face.

00;07;12;02 - 00;07;30;00
Speaker 2
And you know when you have those moments where God it's like the glory cloud just descends when you're in another place? I was like, I heard God say, Will you bring my babies back to me? Will you bring my babies back face to face with me? And I was like, I don't really understand, but I've never said no to you before.

00;07;30;00 - 00;07;39;28
Speaker 2
Sure. So I told my husband and he's such a man of faith and he champions me in every way. He has to be a little bit crazy. I think.

00;07;40;00 - 00;07;41;04
Dave Quak 
Husbands have that about us.

00;07;41;04 - 00;08;03;03
Speaker 2
So God bless them. He bought the business name for me and we just sat on it for years. And then I started getting all these prophecies about changes coming. And you're about to influence people in a way that you've never experienced before. And I'm like, I'm pregnant with my second child. I don't really know how. Yeah, okay, maybe it's got to do with him.

00;08;03;03 - 00;08;29;22
Speaker 2
But then pure hot therapies started coming back on the Saints. So I started conversations with my my then boss who is a big, beautiful Christian woman, and she was championing me, but also trying to sort of say, well, why don't we bring it into my business and we can create a counseling wing on my business? So that took me down the path of getting my counseling diploma and then family starting family therapy.

00;08;29;24 - 00;09;01;09
Speaker 2
So while I was on maternity leave with my son, I was actually at my granny's side when she passed into heaven. And all I can say is my grandma on my mom's side and my granny on my dad's side were the pioneers of faith in my family, my granny who I was with with my son and my mom when she passed, was known for, like she was a highway facilitator in India.

00;09;01;09 - 00;09;38;01
Speaker 2
She was the woman who was, what do you call it when you take Bibles into Korea, like small smuggling, business integration. She she was passionate, just born again believer and just loved the Lord. But there was also a lot of brokenness there. And, my passion for families and family therapy and ministry, I think has kind of being birthed out of becoming an adult and seeing things from a different lens and just realizing that ministry has the ability to make or break families.

00;09;38;01 - 00;10;07;00
Speaker 2
Unfortunately, and while all of us, when we give our heart to Jesus, are on that sanctification journey, there can be pains that aren't quite dealt with that resurface, that affect the relationships most close to us. So it really was reflecting on Granny's life and just, the conditions of her passing and, her family that I feel God really just said to me, do you want to work with families?

00;10;07;00 - 00;10;30;00
Speaker 2
Do you want to help my people do family well? And that's for me, too, because, gosh, he we I, my husband and I were at the same time watching the generals of the Faith, series. And I just kept saying all of these incredible men and women of God. Sometimes it appeared that their families would kind of put on the altar.

00;10;30;03 - 00;10;51;23
Speaker 2
Yeah. And they were so anointed and doing incredible things for God. But then when you look at the price their families paid, I'm like, God. I was praying, God, I don't understand, like what's right or wrong in this, because obviously you want other people pulled into the kingdom, but you don't want our families to be the sacrifice for that.

00;10;51;25 - 00;11;19;28
Speaker 2
And I just started family therapy and actually it was my granny's inheritance that paid for that course. So I really do believe that God, in all of his just grace and mercy and kindness. So like he has put families in my heart my whole life. And then, as I got saved, it's like he's added ministry on to that to be like, I care about family and I care about ministry, you know?

00;11;19;29 - 00;11;47;17
Speaker 2
So I then called my boss not long after and just said, I'm so sorry, I know I committed to you. And I said, the pure heart therapist was a future thing, but I actually think I need to be brave and courageous and step out into it. And she was so beautiful. We both cried together and she actually said it into pure heart therapies and said, our relationship, because I know this is God's calling for your life and yeah, it's been a wild journey ever since.

00;11;47;19 - 00;12;18;01
Dave Quak 
Well, I'm getting goosebumps because just the threat of God in that whole process, you know, he was just setting that up from thousands of years ago. I love how he does that. You said that, ministry can make or break families a few minutes ago. I think you did right. I also had a similar sort of experience when I started researching some of the generals of the faith and found out, you know, how horrible husbands they were or fathers or whatever, you know, settling into doing ministry and family.

00;12;18;01 - 00;12;34;27
Dave Quak 
Well, how does that start at the Sibi Thomas house? And then what do you want to see flow into the people that you minister to? So how do you guys do that? Well, because you're in a crazy time. Toddlers ministry. You know all of that. How do you do it?

00;12;34;29 - 00;13;04;19
Speaker 2
To be honest, my husband and I, this time last year, we're in India and we prayed a crazy prayer. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. We actually were looking over this beautiful scenery and both of us just felt to pray. God, take away any pride in us. And ever since then, God really has just removed every single idol allowed things to surface that had been hidden.

00;13;04;21 - 00;13;09;25
Speaker 2
So I'm going to say the last year has been the rocky year of our marriage, but in a beautiful way.

00;13;09;28 - 00;13;12;12
Dave Quak 
Like, it's sort of like a refining of.

00;13;12;14 - 00;13;38;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, I wouldn't I don't regret it. I actually I'm so grateful for it because where while it's been really, really health, hard, it's also been really, really healthy. For us, it looks like we have been doing a lot of work. So we've both been seeing counselors. We've both been going to prayer ministry with both, being really just thinking, yeah, what are our priorities?

00;13;38;14 - 00;14;06;27
Speaker 2
What is the culture we want to hand on? Having really big conversations around parenting and adjusting our parenting, having big conversations around finances. Honestly, like anything we had stability in, we feel like God has just ripped out of our hands. It's been like, it's so hard, but it's like, who I who I thought God was and who I know him to be now.

00;14;06;27 - 00;14;36;05
Speaker 2
Like, I wouldn't take any of it away for a second because I actually was relying on so much outside of God. And as soon as it's not there, it actually tests you. Where is your faith? Where is your peace? It's just forces you to dig deep and actually and as a as a married couple, I think we're in the best place we've ever been in because we both aren't striving for anything other than like, a home that's safe for our kids.

00;14;36;05 - 00;15;05;24
Speaker 2
And that doesn't look perfect every day. But like, we are committed to calling ourselves out. We're committed to like, my husband is now doing a parenting course. He's also going and volunteering in a prison chaplaincy. So it's like we we've realized we need to make sure that we, like, do things that we know we're called to so ministry outside of the home, but also we're reminding ourselves our first ministry is our home.

00;15;05;27 - 00;15;30;26
Speaker 2
Because I would love my son and my daughter to see God reflected Jesus, God, Holy Spirit reflected in us. And that doesn't look like us being perfect. That looks like us being humble, constantly apologizing. Yeah, but I actually see it in my daughter. She now will say to me, mommy, I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? Yeah. And I get to just embrace.

00;15;30;26 - 00;15;52;17
Speaker 2
And I said, of course, honey, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I think we're coming into a new era in a new, season as a society where we're actually allowing emotion and we're actually embracing our imperfection, and it means that the next generation is able to say, oh, my mom and dad don't have it all together, so I don't need to either.

00;15;52;19 - 00;16;00;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, like perfectionism, perfectionism and striving has really driven, I would say, our generation.

00;16;00;03 - 00;16;00;24
Dave Quak 
Truly,

00;16;00;27 - 00;16;26;01
Speaker 2
Because we haven't known how to like, be self compassionate self to regulate, to know how to cope. And we've turned to everything else, and now I feel like we're doing the hard yards to essentially learn that for ourselves. Like, how do I de-escalate myself? How do I, take off the mask in order to pass that blessing on to our children?

00;16;26;03 - 00;16;33;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that's what ministry looks like for us. I feel like just a whole lot of undoing at this point and a whole lot of rewiring.

00;16;33;09 - 00;17;04;29
Dave Quak 
Awesome. Sarah, I reckon you're in a phase that nearly every Christian needs to come to that place where we really have to be stripped back again in order to then find that intimacy that we can really have with God and find his heart for us, and get maybe some of the religion that we picked up along the way and break that off and, I love how you speak about, you know, even your granny with such affection, but you also speak a lot about you, the, you know, handing things on and what you're selling into your kids.

00;17;04;29 - 00;17;08;18
Dave Quak 
So you'll obviously be going legacy. Can you tell me about that?

00;17;08;21 - 00;17;24;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I mean, it says it all through the Bible, you know, so I, I grew up on a farm in Byron Bay all year three generations. So my mum's mom and dad, all of her siblings. So the aunties and uncles and then all the cousins.

00;17;24;15 - 00;17;25;15
Dave Quak 
All on one big farm.

00;17;25;15 - 00;17;54;09
Speaker 2
Yeah, there was so much beauty about it because I know. Like what? Like how important community is and what, healthy community can bring, which is love and a sense of belonging. But there was also the other side, which is just reality. Like there was also difficulties and tensions and brokenness. Yeah. So it was, I guess, trying to see it for what it is, but also just find the beauty in all of it.

00;17;54;09 - 00;18;18;01
Speaker 2
And it's actually, again, like instilled in me, just this real value for the generations and for family. Yeah. But then all through the Bible, it talks about like, I want to actually read this verse because I think it's so awesome. So, in Deuteronomy seven nine it says, therefore know that the Lord your God is God. He is the faithful God.

00;18;18;01 - 00;18;42;04
Speaker 2
Keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. And I just think what my granny and my grandma did is essentially start a new generation of blessing for the generations to come. And, like old me, the religious probably me would have thought like, oh, so I have to be really, really good to get God's blessing.

00;18;42;04 - 00;19;05;06
Speaker 2
But then I realized, actually, his number one commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor like yourself. So if we can just get love right, which isn't very easy, let's be real, because we're all human and we're all figuring out our stuff. But essentially, I feel like the biggest blessing to the generations is love.

00;19;05;10 - 00;19;27;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Which is why I love what I do, because I work with people that may not have been handed down the blessing of a mother and a father, or may just have really survived, like pretty hard upbringings. And, to them it feels quite hopeless. Like the future. Like, what am I going to give my kids? If I'd never received it myself?

00;19;27;20 - 00;19;56;02
Speaker 2
But yeah, all through the Bible, it promises and all secular counseling and family therapy studies are showing that you actually can shift like one person in, bones therapy, he believed. And he's proven thousands of times that if one person chooses to do the work, it will and does influence the entire family. And that's generations up, generations down.

00;19;56;04 - 00;20;16;23
Speaker 2
So I see it with people and I just try to really share with them like there is hope and it starts with you. And I love working with Christians because it's like, you may not have had a mother or father, you know, that that could that had the capacity to love you in the way that you needed. But you have Jesus and He love loving you how you need.

00;20;16;23 - 00;20;34;11
Speaker 2
And I get to actually help them connect with him in ways that they didn't even know was possible because they brought it up their heart. Yeah, I'm passionate about the generations and about legacy because I think if one person chooses to do the work, you know, the blessings of thousands.

00;20;34;13 - 00;20;38;06
Dave Quak 
Yes, thousands of generations, what is doing the work look like?

00;20;38;13 - 00;20;53;29
Speaker 2
That's where you really need to be. Spirit led. Because for each person it's different. Yeah, I have a lot of clients come to me that say, I heard a podcast or I saw one of your posts and it touched my soul so much. I don't know why I'm here. And I said, that's okay. Let's start with your story.

00;20;54;03 - 00;21;16;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I'll be writing down the family tree, doing timelines, and the Holy Spirit will just highlight one thing. Typically doing the work looks like just admitting and recognizing that we all have staff. I still have staff. We will have stuff until the day we die. But that's the beautiful journey. An adventure with Jesus, isn't it? Yeah.

00;21;16;29 - 00;21;43;21
Speaker 2
That like when we walk hand in hand with him, we are constantly being sanctified and healed and set free. I think doing the work looks like being humble enough to just say I don't have it all together and then praying or just even, like using wisdom, like researching. Okay, who would be a safe person or a safe place that I can start actually opening up with?

00;21;43;26 - 00;22;06;03
Speaker 2
Yeah. It doesn't always have to be a health professional. Can be a friend, a family member, a pastor, connect group leader. I always say to people, I might not be the one for you. And that's why I have a conversation with people before we even have our first session. Because if people don't feel safe with me, then, or they are looking for something else, maybe I can refer them on.

00;22;06;03 - 00;22;30;23
Speaker 2
But ultimately, my greatest desire is that someone would find that place or that person that can essentially start walking at that healing. Yeah, wilderness journey. And that isn't easy. So I always thank my clients in the first session, I'm like, you have been so bold and courageous to step into this space. So I want to honor that. Yeah, because that is essentially it's like repentance.

00;22;30;23 - 00;22;52;19
Speaker 2
It's really posturing at heart and saying, Jesus, I've got some stuff I need to work on. I don't really know what it is, but I trust that you're showing me. And sometimes, like from people sharing their stories, it can appear quite obvious where God wants to lead them. And then other times when we do do our ministry time together, God would just pull out this thing that both of us are going.

00;22;52;21 - 00;22;59;01
Speaker 2
I did not see that coming, but it awesome. Like thank you Jesus. Yeah.

00;22;59;03 - 00;23;19;26
Dave Quak 
What do you think are the most common barriers people put up? Like, you know, your your ministry is called pure heart therapy's because you're big about the heart, you know, and that's where the seed of our emotions and drive and everything rests. Like, what do you think of the biggest sort of like, barriers that people who have experienced trauma put around their hearts?

00;23;19;28 - 00;23;45;29
Speaker 2
So I've been doing lately a lot of, a prayer ministry training called Elijah House ministries, and they actually articulate really beautifully what I've always kind of known just through my passions in my studies. But, Elijah House ministries focus focus is a lot on unforgiveness. And a lot of that is tied in with mothers and fathers.

00;23;46;01 - 00;24;15;11
Speaker 2
And they, they explain to Guinness as this beautiful thing that's actually a gift. It's not about forgetting what's happened to you or dismissing that it happens. You don't, you know, like a pressing it or like suppressing it down. So like it didn't happen. But it's actually about one of my mentors says, if you were to get bitten by a snake, we so often try and go after the snake and we use all of that energy, and the poison is actually coming into our heart and it's festering and it's it's damaging us.

00;24;15;13 - 00;24;36;11
Speaker 2
So essentially what she says is forgiveness is saying, God, I'll give you the snake. I can't do anything about that. But could you please take the poison? Because it's just a cage to prison. It's a trap, and it's causing me so much harm. So big. A lot of what I do is walk people through forgiveness over it, over time when they're ready.

00;24;36;14 - 00;24;43;18
Dave Quak 
Yeah, I'm sure it takes time, because doing the work with that stuff, especially with trauma, that's that's deep layers of of hurt and brokenness.

00;24;43;20 - 00;25;09;25
Speaker 2
Yeah. But I tell you, when people get there, get free. I've watched people after 6 or 7 sessions of them just unpacking the pain and the trauma and the disappointment and going through, some steps with them around forgiveness. I've watched that countenance changes, they look different, and they finish the process and they say, oh my gosh, like they're just weeping.

00;25;09;25 - 00;25;31;04
Speaker 2
And yes, I can think of them and not wish pain on them. You know, I can think of them and actually bless them and so it is just life changing. It's light and it's biblical. You know, all through the Bible it says, like before you come to the altar, go and forgive your brother. You know, more barriers. Fear.

00;25;31;07 - 00;26;04;21
Speaker 2
And I think that's where trauma comes in. Because in trauma your brain has essentially learned that something's not safe. And I always say to my clients, it's not, you know, when you feel anxious or you feel hypo aroused, it's actually your body's trying to protect you. And the more we can have self-compassion for our body and actually remember or remind ourselves why that protective mechanism has come in in the beginning, the more, we're actually able to say thank you, body, for trying to protect me, but it's not necessary anymore.

00;26;04;24 - 00;26;26;05
Speaker 2
And it's rather than being like, oh, I hate this about me, it's going, oh, wow, you've been doing your best to take care of me. So we all do it. We all have little like behavioral patterns or thought processes like or even, you know, like choosing to isolate when we really should come into community, the way we speak to ourselves internally.

00;26;26;05 - 00;26;36;13
Speaker 2
They say that, a huge part of healing in trauma is people actually changing the way they talk to themselves, which is just wow. Because again, that's all through the Bible as well.

00;26;36;13 - 00;26;39;07
Dave Quak 
So that's people even outside of the Christian world are saying the same thing.

00;26;39;14 - 00;26;59;14
Speaker 2
Bessel he. Yeah. He said that a huge difference in someone who is resilient because of trauma or someone that's kind of stuck in their trauma, is that internal dialog I sit across from people often that are like their own worst enemies, and they're constantly saying things over themselves. And I'm like, oh gosh, like, let's just stop there. Let's stop.

00;26;59;14 - 00;27;32;08
Speaker 2
And that's why I love bringing Jesus into my work, too, because often, like a process I do is with, facilitating with them, bringing all of that stuff, all these bitter roots lies, addictive behaviors, all of that to the cross. And then asking Jesus, what do you have in exchange for me? Yes, he is so good. And the tears start flowing and like I've done nothing, I'm literally just facilitating a safe space for them to encounter.

00;27;32;10 - 00;27;53;19
Speaker 2
And it says in the Bible that he's a great counselor, like he is the one. Yeah, doing that deep, deep work. Yeah. There's, you know, vows that we've made and this is a big one around parenting as well. Like, I'll never be like my mom. I'll never be like my dad. But essentially, when we say things like that, we're actually saying that.

00;27;53;21 - 00;28;13;01
Speaker 2
And so when we say we never want to be like that, we're actually becoming more like that. And most of us have said, oh gosh, that sounds so much like my mother. Oh gosh, I sound so much like my father. And that's essentially because we haven't released our mother or our father of their mistakes in parenting, which we all have.

00;28;13;03 - 00;28;32;27
Speaker 2
So the biggest blessing we can do for ourselves and our families is to actually forgive our parents. And as things come up again, taking it to the cross and saying, Jesus, why am I operating like this? Because often we'll see the fruit of someone's behavior. But what he wants to get to is the root, which is in your heart, I love that, yes.

00;28;32;27 - 00;28;59;11
Speaker 2
So I love that it's constantly going, oh, my anger just exploded. Okay, I'm triggered like my brain is fired up. But Lord, like, what's going on in my heart? Why was that such a triggering? And if you keep asking him that question, he will show you. And then it's going okay. I haven't forgiven my mom for this, Lord, I confess I haven't forgiven my mom.

00;28;59;11 - 00;29;21;02
Speaker 2
Can you please help me? And then I always say to my clients, Visualize Jesus on the cross. Because essentially what he did while he was up there, he's broken, body absorbed all of the sin, all of the shame, all of the bitterness, all those unforgiveness. And he took it from us. But when we hold onto it, we were like, it's a wound.

00;29;21;02 - 00;29;46;26
Speaker 2
It's a festering wound inside of us. And essentially, as we give it to him and we say, what have you got? In exchange, he meets us and he gives us something beautiful. So it's so hard because people kind of been walking around living like this their whole lives, and they don't know themselves outside of it. But the second they gave it up and that weight comes off them, and then they hear the father's voice saying things like, I love you, you're my child.

00;29;46;28 - 00;29;56;13
Speaker 2
We've read that a thousand times all throughout the Bible, but when it hits you and it goes from here down into your heart, yes. There's nothing better, nothing better.

00;29;56;15 - 00;30;22;23
Dave Quak 
Well, you make your role like facilitating people. Basically, you're walking people to Jesus and safely taking him there. You know what? Why do people resist that process in your in your experience? Like, I get that it's scary and everything, but the cost benefit sort of analysis, like, you know, you know that it's going to end in freedom if you've got some sort of understanding of God, why do people hold it?

00;30;22;26 - 00;30;47;19
Speaker 2
Part of it is, I don't think that people know that that level of freedom and healing exists, to be honest. Okay, like I didn't, it took me going to Bible college and experiencing it for myself through mentors, through prayer, ministry, through just encounters with him in worship. Yeah. The I was like, oh my gosh, he's actually so much more alive and real.

00;30;47;19 - 00;31;14;05
Speaker 2
And he is pursuing my heart so much more than I ever knew. I feel like he's been training me, healing me to train and equip me to then heal others. I think people, don't know. That's probably the first one. I think people might be scared. A lot of people say to me, I was really nervous to come to you because of the stigma around counseling, which I totally get.

00;31;14;08 - 00;31;33;18
Speaker 2
And again, that's why I always start with, you're so brave for being here. I want to honor you. I think to a lot of people have said to me, I'm so nervous to see what comes up. But in my experience, God is so gentle and I work with non-Christians too. And I still I don't use the same tools, obviously.

00;31;33;20 - 00;32;07;01
Speaker 2
My clients give me consent, like in the, client intake form, whether I bring spirituality into my space. But even with non-Christians, forgiveness still comes up, bitterness still comes up, and we still walk through very similar modalities. Storytelling is still huge and a lot of people for them, it's so much pain. You know, I think people have gone to different therapists before and not received what they need.

00;32;07;04 - 00;32;12;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. So maybe that's caused a bit of a barrier as well. Yeah.

00;32;12;03 - 00;32;34;23
Dave Quak 
You advocate for family in a generation where family values are changing very quickly, and definitions of traditional family values and what looks like a homogenous family and all of that's changing so quickly, I guess, is that making your ministry harder orders that providing more opportunity, or have you got any thoughts around that?

00;32;34;26 - 00;33;10;26
Speaker 2
Well, I think any families that come to see me or any individuals that come to see me as so unique, so I don't really feel like there's one right way of doing family. I would definitely say family needs to come first. So despite all the changes in year, like how families look these days and, the complexities of, yeah, just all the, the differences we're seeing with mixed families and divorced families, which can also actually be done really beautifully as well.

00;33;10;26 - 00;33;31;00
Speaker 2
So it's just acknowledging that it is. Yeah. When people are coming into, my services, it's just saying like, hey, I see you as an individual family and I want to help you. I think people can often come in thinking I'm like the expert, but in actual fact, I'm on a straight up, like I'm looking at my family as well.

00;33;31;01 - 00;33;33;19
Dave Quak 
Oh, you did said that earlier. Yeah. Like that was a brave concession.

00;33;33;19 - 00;33;46;07
Speaker 2
Yeah. We are like, no one's got it, no one's there, no one. And I think the more we speak about that, and normalize the journey and the process, it actually gives people permission.

00;33;46;09 - 00;34;05;09
Dave Quak 
So choose. My wife, Jess and I are taking a couple through, pre-marriage counseling. We do it all the time. Maybe like 20 times so far, maybe 30. And every time it. We've been married 20 years. And every time it just brings all this stuff back up that we still have to work on and still have to journey with and.

00;34;05;11 - 00;34;06;14
Speaker 2
Praise God still.

00;34;06;14 - 00;34;18;23
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we still have to rub against each other, you know, iron sharpening iron. It sounds so cute when you say it, but it's like two metal apparatuses screeching against each other. And, you know.

00;34;18;26 - 00;34;41;21
Speaker 2
And I I've heard you speak a few times, and I love that you're so honest, because I think what you're bringing, Dave, is a new generation of pastors that are actually okay with their scars. And it's okay if my journey can actually help you in any way. Here it is on a platter, and it says in revelation that the enemy enemy will be overcome by the power of the blood, and our testimony is true.

00;34;41;22 - 00;35;10;15
Speaker 2
So why aren't we sharing our testimonies? You know, like there's a difference, in bleeding all over someone and actually coming through a hard trial and having, you know, those monument moments where God has said, like, build an altar here, build an altar here, and you sharing those beautiful stories, that's what's going to help a congregation be ministered to and actually start praying prayers like I want what Dave has just shared, like I want that restoration.

00;35;10;15 - 00;35;40;13
Speaker 2
I want that revelation. So yeah, I think just to start with, like any family that is asking for help is in my books, just incredible. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, it's it doesn't matter what like whether they're, like, my family, multicultural or, you know, first generation. Yeah. People that have moved from another country, like, it's incredibly brave to step into a healing space as a family, whatever the dynamics are.

00;35;40;15 - 00;36;07;01
Speaker 2
But family does need to come first. So I say that in just in the mindset of the importance of a mother and a father in a child's life, and just the blessing that a mother and a father can give their children, which is identity, purpose, nurture, caring, all those things. I think in generations before and even in ad generation, we can be highly distracted.

00;36;07;03 - 00;36;38;16
Speaker 2
We can get our priorities wrong. And we've spoken about ministry coming first and what that has looked like. But it's not just ministry. It's money. It's like purpose. So that can be in the workplace. Yeah. It's identity. It's, I guess, just seeking things outside of what God would consider a healthy family unit and, looking to other things rather than, like how can I display Christ to my children?

00;36;38;19 - 00;37;13;08
Speaker 2
They say even in secular research, that love this, this. I read this and just was so like, oh my gosh, everyone's proving the Bible loves outside of health practitioners, outside of routine structure. All that love is the most healing agent in a child's life or in anyone's life at all as well. So if someone has a sense of belonging and safety, that is like the most pure soil for just beautiful things to be grown from.

00;37;13;10 - 00;37;35;27
Speaker 2
So just bringing, I guess, that revelation or that, frame of reference back into families and just saying like, hey, you might not be getting it right, but do you know that connection is actually created strongest with the child when you're apologizing for bad behavior? Yeah. How wild is that? So not only getting it right, but when we're apologizing for getting it wrong is when our kids feel most loved.

00;37;35;28 - 00;37;53;10
Dave Quak 
That's cool. I know, because they know we're in the wrong and sometimes feeling a power imbalance to be able to bring it up. And so when we do, that's actually genius, I like that. Luckily, I get a lot of things to apologize for zero so I can just build it. Oh man. Kids, I give you reasons to apologize.

00;37;53;10 - 00;37;54;13
Speaker 2
Hey,

00;37;54;16 - 00;38;27;14
Dave Quak 
This is good stuff. I love that you highlight the restoration we can find in Christ. There is nothing else. Like I said, he loves the linchpin. But because he is love, you know, like, it's like we we're introducing people to the fragrance of Jesus. Even if it's not, you know, with Christian words or whatever, you know, like when you have to if they take the know spiritual conversation box in your disclaimer form thing, they're still getting Jesus because they're getting you, you know.

00;38;27;17 - 00;38;31;10
Speaker 2
He loves them. Just it's just Christian. He really does.

00;38;31;13 - 00;38;42;24
Dave Quak 
And when you get a revelation of how much he really loves us as these kids, Christian, non-Christian, like it. He's just yeah, we're image bearers and he cares. It's such a great way to live.

00;38;43;01 - 00;39;07;16
Speaker 2
Because then you're actually living out of a full tank of love. Yeah. So you're not trying to pull it out of everyone else and demand it from anyone else. So saying from a broken lens and, you know, and I, I'm still gonna I'm on a path of all of this, you know, and it's, it when you get trained in it, it's part of your daily practice yourself like, self-awareness, self-compassion, bringing things to the cross.

00;39;07;20 - 00;39;26;14
Speaker 2
Yeah. But it's not in lack of perfection, test or religious spirit. It's just like, oh, thank you, Lord, for your grace and mercy. Yes, I need you. Help me. Yeah, yeah. Jesus actually showed me a picture once, which was a game changer for me. Essentially, he showed me a picture because I said, I just need to give this to you.

00;39;26;14 - 00;39;46;29
Speaker 2
And he showed me a picture of this beautiful white horse running towards me with, like, the sun and just, you know, one of those amazing scenes in a movie that is like heaven. And this beautiful white horse came up to me and I remember just saying I had a whip in my hand, and I just started whipping this horse, and there was blood going everywhere.

00;39;47;00 - 00;40;10;11
Speaker 2
Oh, wow. And essentially God said to me, this is what you do to yourself. Wow, I see you as this beautiful, you know, white stallion. I see you as my daughter. I see you as my princess. And every time you can't give things to me or, you know, you, you fall back into that condemnation, self-judgment, critical thinking, critical self-talk.

00;40;10;13 - 00;40;29;12
Speaker 2
You're essentially whipping me, and I've already been whipped for you, like I. I've already paid the price, and I just remember he he gave me that. He took his time with me, and he gave me the opportunity to throw away the whip. And I remember it took me a while because I was like, God, I've never been without this whip.

00;40;29;12 - 00;40;48;10
Speaker 2
I've always whipped myself. I've always been so horrible to myself. And as I threw it away, like I just remember I was like, that image has stuck with me forever. And I remember just getting such a freedom from that self condemning talk. And the religious spirit, I guess, whatever it is. But I talk to my clients about that all the time.

00;40;48;10 - 00;40;50;10
Speaker 2
Like, why do you whip yourself so much?

00;40;50;13 - 00;41;06;01
Dave Quak 
It is so prevalent. There are so many percent of Christians still do it. Love Jesus, but still self-abasement even when the prayers start with, you know, Lord, I'm just a wretched sinner like you. You were a wretched sinner. But not.

00;41;06;01 - 00;41;07;03
Speaker 2
Now.

00;41;07;06 - 00;41;15;06
Dave Quak 
You know, like the appropriation of the grace of Jesus is on you now. So like you just said, you're whipping yourself for something that's already been paid for.

00;41;15;08 - 00;41;16;19
Speaker 2
So make sense?

00;41;16;21 - 00;41;23;13
Dave Quak 
Like, imagine if I bought you a coffee and then just kept trying to pay for the coffee over and over. They'd be like, dude, you pay for the coffee.

00;41;23;16 - 00;41;24;27
Speaker 2
Do you know when we do that, we do.

00;41;24;27 - 00;41;25;25
Dave Quak 
That with our atonement.

00;41;25;25 - 00;41;50;26
Speaker 2
All the time, and it comes back to the heart, like, if that's what we've and like the generational legacy we've we've been born into. Yeah. If that's been the way we've been parented or spoken to or like experienced Christ through the church, we've been apostles, then it's it's our framework for thinking really leaving. And but what I love, I say to all of my clients like, Jesus loves you too much to leave you where you are.

00;41;50;26 - 00;42;09;25
Speaker 2
Yes. So are you ready to, like, get rid of that? Yeah. You know, it's like because people have heard it all before, but it's again, not gone from the head to the heart yet. So essentially it's reconnecting. And trauma Therapy two is reconnecting yourself to your body because people that have gone through significant trauma are very disconnected. Yeah.

00;42;09;25 - 00;42;31;04
Speaker 2
So they're constantly thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, anxious, anxious, anxious, anxious. And it's you trying to get them back connected with their heart, connected with their body. So that's like what I said. Like I talk to all of my clients. There's the spiritual and the secular component of what I do, but they overlap. Yes. And I'll tell you when I'm talking from my family therapy framework or O.T. or counseling or whatever.

00;42;31;07 - 00;42;43;27
Speaker 2
And I'll also like just let God talk to you in those beautiful spaces where I be quiet because then, you know, you're hearing from him, and that's way more powerful than bowing or. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Any of the others I'll tell you about.

00;42;44;00 - 00;43;14;29
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And when he starts declaring his love, one of the greatest things you've done to. Not today, Sarah, is that verse that speaks about the generations. Right? So often we focus on the little part that says, you know, 3 or 4 generations to those who hate me, but then showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me, I just wonder why so many times that that gets fixated on the on the negative, like, I feel like God's making a massive comparison there, that it's not like a literal, like formula or anything.

00;43;14;29 - 00;43;26;22
Dave Quak 
It's like it's like abundance. It's like, I love you so much more abundantly than punishment, so much more like it's just the juxtaposition in that verse is ridiculous.

00;43;26;25 - 00;43;29;08
Speaker 2
Like, how do you think about that verse? I do, yeah.

00;43;29;09 - 00;43;55;14
Dave Quak 
Because often when I think about that verse, it gets the most times I encounter that verse is when someone saying, 3 or 4 generations ago, someone did this or something, which I know there's merit to some of those discussions too, but I also want to honor the rest of the verse that says, okay, yeah, but maybe thousands of generations ago someone also did this, I don't know, what do you think of the that whole verse.

00;43;55;16 - 00;43;58;06
Speaker 2
That is in verse that I'm still praying to? It is a.

00;43;58;06 - 00;43;59;03
Dave Quak 
Crazy verse, right?

00;43;59;09 - 00;44;11;16
Speaker 2
Because being family focused, generationally minded and even being at my granny's bedside and thinking there is something to this, there was four generations in that room.

00;44;11;16 - 00;44;13;29
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you had your little one too.

00;44;14;05 - 00;44;38;27
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I was really just praying like, and I, I don't feel like I fully landed, but like. Lord, what was the significance of this? Because I drove down to Byron that one day I didn't have to be in the room with her, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know, I, I do believe it's got something to do with, just meeting people in that space and asking about the generations.

00;44;38;27 - 00;44;42;14
Speaker 2
And for me, understanding the influence that it does have.

00;44;42;16 - 00;45;12;29
Dave Quak 
I think the thing I've been thinking about with that verse era is that whenever I usually encounter it, it's from the negative side where it's like, you know, the curses to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. And so what will naturally happen is that so when I first got diagnosed with bipolar, I went and saw some great people for prayer, and there was a lot of research about what people did third and fourth generation back and whether that's sort of come upon me and I'm still wrestling with how all this works.

00;45;13;02 - 00;45;38;24
Dave Quak 
But the interesting thing about that verse is, yes, it says the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. But then the next part of the verse, which you focused on, says showing love to the the thousand generations of those who love me and I just wonder if it's so much more a verse about God's bigness and greatness than it is about the technicalities of what happened 3 or 4 generations back.

00;45;38;24 - 00;46;10;06
Dave Quak 
With all of that, though, I also acknowledge there are things that we do pass through the generations and genetic dispositions. And like you said earlier, you know, we say things like, I'll never be like my parents. And then eventually you tear shreds off your kids and sound exactly like your dad. So there are things like that too, I suppose, from my and I just, I find that realm very like something I would love to chat about for five hours and somehow get to the bottom of because it's it's confusing, right?

00;46;10;08 - 00;46;33;16
Dave Quak 
What do we do? Like how do we exist knowing that God's love goes to the thousands and thousands of generations, but also we live in this frail, sort of like this side of eternity where our brokenness still invades. And so we're broken in, restored, you know what I mean? And like, we're on a journey and the fullness of God is here, but sometimes it just seems so hard to contact.

00;46;33;19 - 00;46;36;24
Dave Quak 
I don't know, hopefully that's not a ramble, but what do you think.

00;46;36;27 - 00;47;03;26
Speaker 2
This is like? So my heart and my thinking and my prayer. But I think it's coming to that place of pace. So God recently is speaking to me a lot through two Corinthians 12 7 to 11. The verse that says so Paul begged Christ to take the thorn out of his flesh. And Jesus said, no, because my grace is sufficient for you, and my power is made perfect in your weakness.

00;47;03;27 - 00;47;23;11
Speaker 2
Yes. So I feel like in the last few months, God has taken me on a personal journey of slipping for me what I think is strength. So I used to think I was the strongest because I was the prayer warrior and I always wanted to, you know, be the one that was like, But God is good. He's on the throne.

00;47;23;11 - 00;47;49;01
Speaker 2
And, which is true. It's all true. But I think I was quite dismissive of people in their Valley seasons, which, yes, I'm saying this as a Christian and as a counselor. Yeah. It was always just like, okay, well, how do we get you up? How do we get you out of this place? Where is now? Because I have been in the season of feeling very weak due to my own, loss.

00;47;49;01 - 00;48;15;11
Speaker 2
I'll say just grief. I've really had to say to God, like. Well, where do I see it now? What do I believe about they seasons of where my. I'm literally in so much pain emotionally that like, I feel it in my body. It's affecting my breathing, it's affecting my thoughts. And I've been like, well, this is where some of my clients are, and it's giving me this fresh compassion and empathy and even just understanding, shared understanding.

00;48;15;13 - 00;48;41;25
Speaker 2
And that's where this verse came into my life again. I've been there before, but I feel like God has said like, quite often. It's in those weak moments that my glory just comes and my power rests on you. And my revelation is your portion and like we were talking about before, like hotter seasons, you wouldn't wish them on anyone, but you wouldn't take them from your own life because you do see God in a whole new lens.

00;48;41;27 - 00;49;11;19
Speaker 2
So I think you're right. Like pace ultimately for me, has come from knowing I'll never be perfect to perfection is that's actually a really freeing thing. I was like, when I and I have this conversation with many of my clients, like, you know, like we all have imperfections. It's actually okay, but it's about knowing where the Lord is leading you and just doing that part of the process and not constantly trying to be like, oh, I've got 15 points to fix.

00;49;11;21 - 00;49;30;11
Speaker 2
Okay, Lord, I want to pray and I want to be fixed. I wanna be healed. And it's trusting that through the process and through the journey, his power and his glory is actually like coming out of you and helping other people as well. Yes. So yeah, it's finding your peace in the fact that, like, we're never going to be perfect.

00;49;30;12 - 00;49;46;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And we might never have the answers to the third and fourth generations, but that if we trust God, we know that even in our weakest places, his strength and power will reside in us and his work in us and through us to others.

00;49;46;22 - 00;49;51;17
Dave Quak 
Yeah, and that way he's guaranteed to get the glory because we can't.

00;49;51;20 - 00;49;52;26
Speaker 2
Greatest in this. We're just a.

00;49;52;26 - 00;50;13;26
Dave Quak 
Mess. And then if he does, if something powerful happens, they're not going to be like, I will praise Sarah. You know, she did a good job. It's like, no, no, praise God he's the only one who could have done the deliverance there. The dark times. Hey, I, I before I really went through them, I never understood the phrase, you know, that, you know, I grew close to God through these horrible time.

00;50;13;26 - 00;50;35;29
Dave Quak 
I never understood that concept. It really is an experiential revelation. And but then when you do get through the end of it, he does prove that he is amazing and wonderful. And it's not a causation thing. I don't think it's like he inflicts us in order to get that. I think what happens is that bad stuff's happening in anyway because we live in brokenness.

00;50;35;29 - 00;51;02;01
Dave Quak 
So he redeems it to bring us closer to him. I know for myself, I didn't get to have intimacy with him until I experienced my dark night of the soul, till I went through real darkness was when he became light to wild thought. And you know, Paul, he asked for that system to be removed three times. Now he knew how to do healings, and he knew how to bring the power of God to people.

00;51;02;01 - 00;51;11;28
Dave Quak 
So if it was going to happen, he was one guy who we could be like, guaranteed. He knew how to get there. And still God was like, now I got a big, different plan for you.

00;51;12;00 - 00;51;32;03
Speaker 2
Huge. And I really think you've just hit something on the head that I've been wrestling with, too, is as Christians, we need to be so careful where people are at and what how we're ministering. Because sometimes the church isn't the safest place for hurting people. True. And sometimes, like I believe in the power of God, I believe in the Word of God.

00;51;32;03 - 00;52;11;29
Speaker 2
I believe in prayer. But sometimes you just need someone to say, hey, I see you and I'm so sorry and can I bring you a meal? You know, yeah. Because, yeah, I it's a fine line these seasons as believers. There's so much blessing in being a part of a faith community. But there's also, I'm sure, and I have so many questions to ask you about it, but like, comments that I've made that can be quite upsetting or, you know, perceived ideas or, yeah, even just like false doctrine that comes up and you're just like, yeah, there's grace, there's grace.

00;52;11;29 - 00;52;13;12
Speaker 2
Protect my heart, Lord.

00;52;13;14 - 00;52;27;21
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah. And even that sort of like underlying assumption that walking in darkness means you've somehow lost your faith or something. Yeah, for me, it's actually transformed my faith. And I feel like it almost takes more faith to keep following. Cross. Follow your dog.

00;52;27;23 - 00;52;28;11
Speaker 2


00;52;28;13 - 00;52;42;10
Dave Quak 
You know, I would have frustrated you in my mid 20s, Sarah, because I was that extroverted super charismatic, hyper loud dude who, if someone ever said, you know, I'm anxious or I got depression, I'd pray really loudly.

00;52;42;10 - 00;52;43;04
Speaker 2
That was me, too.

00;52;43;04 - 00;52;50;17
Dave Quak 
Are you two. Hey. Yeah. Hold on their heads ripping in tongues or whatever for a couple of minutes? Yeah. Go on out of here and you'll be right.

00;52;50;22 - 00;52;53;11
Speaker 2
I know we did that. Me too. Yeah.

00;52;53;17 - 00;53;14;08
Dave Quak 
I feel like everything in you under, under like, 30 should just be stricken from the record government. You're a lot more quick. You guys can do it under 25, but guys under 30. But I mean, all good intentions. And it still happens today. All good intentions. But at least what you're doing is informing the body of Christ how to do better.

00;53;14;11 - 00;53;37;02
Speaker 2
And again, I think it just comes back to the heart. So what is your motivation for that? And I check my motivations a lot these days. Dave, like even posts I do on Instagram. What is my motivation for this? Yeah, conversations I have with people, decisions I make like what is my heart motivation for this? And if it's not out of the goodness and purity of my heart, then it's going.

00;53;37;04 - 00;53;56;06
Speaker 2
I don't think this is a good idea because yeah, I don't want to be driven by anything other than him. Sometimes we can force people into a place that they're not ready for, and you have to be very careful as a counselor not to do whatever, because you want to see something happen, but actually there's not time for it.

00;53;56;06 - 00;54;12;23
Speaker 2
So it's. And that's that like beautiful dance you have with the client and the Holy Spirit of just like I'm not in a rush, I'll say to all of my clients, I'm not in a rush, and I don't need you to be either. Like, we're going at the pace that you set. And we're only going to do anything that you feel comfortable with.

00;54;12;23 - 00;54;22;11
Speaker 2
Because in trauma informed care, in, spiritual care, like our first priority should be safety. Yeah.

00;54;22;13 - 00;54;59;20
Dave Quak 
I know for me, the two extremes bother me where it's really far. One way or really far the other way, where it's only medical and there's no spiritual, you know, there. And then the two extremes and there's some validity for both. But in the middle is this mess where you and I and most people exist, where there's spiritual and physical and emotional and biological, all mixed into this melting pot of mental health and Jesus and getting through life and overcoming brokenness and I don't know how getting to the end somehow, as a pack who loved each other along the way and got some scars and beat each other and forgave each other and got this

00;54;59;20 - 00;55;00;08
Dave Quak 
on the air.

00;55;00;11 - 00;55;00;29
Speaker 2


00;55;01;01 - 00;55;01;19
Dave Quak 
It's messy.

00;55;01;23 - 00;55;02;15
Speaker 2


00;55;02;17 - 00;55;05;21
Dave Quak 
Family is a great place to learn that.

00;55;05;23 - 00;55;28;08
Speaker 2
It's the great exchange. It is. It's the bringing my broken bits. Yeah. And just what have you got in exchange for me. God. Yeah. And loving your family enough to do that with them. Like I'm sorry mom's not perfect. Dad's not perfect, but I, I, I want you to know we love you even in your imperfection. And we hope that you still love us in eyes.

00;55;28;14 - 00;55;29;06
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;55;29;08 - 00;55;37;28
Dave Quak 
That's awesome. Okay, so, Sarah, as we start, like, winding down towards the end of the podcast, is there anything you'd like to do or share or anything?

00;55;38;02 - 00;56;01;22
Speaker 2
Well, I actually, would just love to ask you some questions. Dave Jones yeah, the little bit that I know about you, I just think you are a pioneer in the church ministry space in that I've never heard in all my how I got saved in 2011. So how many years is that? 13 years of being in church.

00;56;01;22 - 00;56;27;00
Speaker 2
I've never really heard a pastor be so honest about their own mental health journey. So I just wanna start with honoring you because, yeah, I think it's so important that we do start taking that mask off. And we do start, like I said before, to showing people our scars, and keeping it real. Can I just ask you, like, just for a summary?

00;56;27;00 - 00;56;45;17
Speaker 2
I know, I don't even know what you're going to say and where are you going to go? But I just want to hear, like, what is that journey been like for you? Because it's your story and it's what you've lived and like, how have people helped you even, like health professions, how people helped you? Have your congregation helped you and then even what have been some of the difficulties?

00;56;45;17 - 00;56;56;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, that you've had to overcome? Because I'm sure this has been like a bit of a season for you, looking in the mirror and things, maybe exposing your heart, like, have you managed all of that?

00;56;57;00 - 00;57;02;13
Dave Quak 
That's awesome. Questions. Sarah. So, I've got this habit of all my Sarah friends I call them.

00;57;02;13 - 00;57;06;04
Speaker 2
Says because all my friends. So the the.

00;57;06;04 - 00;57;29;21
Dave Quak 
The journey's been really it's been interesting. It's been absolutely amazing and terribly difficult and everything all in amongst it all. So the supportive, the good elements. Okay. So from a medical perspective, I'm blessed to have a really good GP. He's not a Christian dude, but man, he's he's brilliant at what he does and he's been looking out for me for about ten years now.

00;57;29;23 - 00;57;56;13
Dave Quak 
He was part of the initial process of like helping me discover what was going on with my mental health, and then he referred me to a really good psychologist and psychiatrist, and that sort of began the process in the medical side of healing, which was good. And so now I'm on I'm on a medication kind of regime that is basically geared towards leveling out the manias of bipolar.

00;57;56;20 - 00;58;19;06
Dave Quak 
So the the bipolar mania is when I'm just like way too intense for too long. And so it takes off the intensity. It's supposed to, mostly works. And then it also helps with the very low dark times. And so that's been that. So the medical side has been really good. And I go and get regular checkups with him.

00;58;19;08 - 00;58;38;07
Dave Quak 
The spiritual side, I'm blessed to have one of the most understanding churches on the planet, our church are brilliant. So when I first was in the dark, the real dark Times, Jess and I took two months off to go on long service leave and it was literally like, look, are we coming back to ministry? I mean, she was always like, we come on back to ministry.

00;58;38;07 - 00;58;59;24
Dave Quak 
But I had to come to that realization because I'm like, I'm so messed up, you know, like, and I don't know if I'm the right person for this through that long service leave, God restored my passion for ministry. I never lost my passion for him. But, you know, just was like, now you've got this like, wow, almost like you said before, the power is made perfect in your weakness.

00;58;59;24 - 00;59;05;06
Dave Quak 
So you've got this, but it's not your power. It's my bell, you know. And so.

00;59;05;06 - 00;59;05;22
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;59;05;24 - 00;59;16;25
Dave Quak 
You know and and I got to a place in that long service leave where I was like, I was in Bangkok and I was just out the front of our Airbnb, and I just confessed, I can't do this anymore.

00;59;16;25 - 00;59;17;20
Speaker 2
God. Wow.

00;59;17;23 - 00;59;37;10
Dave Quak 
And that was like the turning point because his peace came and I felt like him say, great, now we're ready, you know? And so since then, he's been a big sort of time of restoration. But going back to how the church has helped, I'll go back to church and we've been away for two months, and I'd organize the next month for us just to turn up at 9 a.m..

00;59;37;13 - 00;59;57;10
Dave Quak 
So they organized. So basically we had two months off and came back to another month of light duties because I just wanted to bless us. And so our church is amazing. So there's been those really good things. But now the space I'm in now, this podcast is going really well. Like I'm getting lots of people listening, which is a blessing.

00;59;57;10 - 01;00;18;22
Dave Quak 
I didn't I, I kind of didn't expect it, but I did expect it because I think I was thinking this needs to be spoken about. And even if I just start the ball rolling and someone better comes along or whatever, I'm like, as long as this gets on the radar of people, I'm happy. And so I started doing that, which then led to me speaking about it way more at church.

01;00;18;22 - 01;00;44;10
Dave Quak 
And then I preach around a little bit again now and start speaking it. I did a men's breakfast and a few other things that starting to generate, but it's interesting because I only started the podcast in in February, so it's only it's just all been a bit of mayhem. So where I live is in a place where I have these epic times where God uses me and it's amazing.

01;00;44;12 - 01;01;02;04
Dave Quak 
But what people don't see are the times where I'm in this room with the lights out, just getting through the day. And it's just that balance at the moment. And so I'm so like, yeah, I'll be like, I'll go through phases. People might notice, like I'll be real visible on like social media and then I'll disappear for a while, you know?

01;01;02;04 - 01;01;18;27
Dave Quak 
And I'm a bit of a social media old thought like, I, I get on, but I don't love it. I like your insta, I like about five inches and I like yours because it's actually really good. And I think that comes back to what you said before, that you only put things up that you know are going to be beneficial and from God.

01;01;18;27 - 01;01;43;23
Dave Quak 
So I really appreciate yours and a few others. Some of them are just stupid stuff, like people getting pushed in the pool and silly stuff, but I mainly I'm not. Yeah, so my rhythms like, I guess I can. All I can say is I'm just hanging on with God every day, like the good days are because of him and the bad days he's he's there getting me through.

01;01;43;23 - 01;02;04;22
Dave Quak 
And so I'm just trying to be raw and real and and just, I don't know, encourage people that. I think one of my biggest messages is that people with mental health issues aren't disqualified from either ministry or God's love. I think there's a lot of condemnation around mental health where people feel like gods turn their back on him, or that they've done something to deserve it.

01;02;04;27 - 01;02;06;15
Dave Quak 
Yeah, and neither of those are true.

01;02;06;19 - 01;02;07;04
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;02;07;07 - 01;02;25;10
Dave Quak 
And then, I also think we disqualify people because they're out of the box in ministry, whether we say the words or not, because it's uncomfortable. We're not used to it. So I'd love to somehow get into that space. So sorry if that was a bit of a long answer, but that's that's kind of where my head's at at the moment.

01;02;25;12 - 01;02;50;05
Speaker 2
It's a true answer, and it's so important for people to hear because that's the truth, isn't it? Most people only see, highlight reels. And yeah, when we are on Instagram and everything's good, but the reality is our lives is still we have our moments, we have our days. And yeah, I think we need to be able to speak more about that place because then it allows other people to have.

01;02;50;06 - 01;02;52;19
Speaker 2
Yeah, that kind of life as well.

01;02;52;22 - 01;02;53;18
Dave Quak 
That's true.

01;02;53;20 - 01;03;25;10
Speaker 2
And I just think to like the church, like Jesus said, he fulfilled as I 61, which is I'm here to set the captives free, you know, bind up the broken hearted. How do we make the church that space where the brokenhearted are literally coming in and they're being received with open arms? It actually looks like each one of us doing the work, and each one of us being comfortable enough, our own brokenness and our own process to sanctification, healing, salvation, all of that, to be able to receive them and see them.

01;03;25;17 - 01;03;40;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. Because otherwise we're all sort of just looking at ourselves and going, gosh, what can God do with me? Or have I done something wrong? Is this because I've not repented enough? I've not prayed enough? I've not. Yeah. It's not like that is it's not.

01;03;40;17 - 01;03;59;14
Dave Quak 
You know, even job's friends, they were brilliant until they started trying to solve it, you know, and they sat there for a week grieving with their friend quietly. And then they're like, okay, you know, this has happened because you have been a sinner or this has happened. It's not for me. Like, I just don't think God works like that.

01;03;59;14 - 01;04;20;00
Dave Quak 
It's not he's not petty. He's not. You know, it's not reciprocity or like, because you did this, I'm going to afflict you with this. Just there's some mysteries that I feel like we've attributed things to God that he never did and painted him to be less glorious than he really is. And I'm not. I'm guilty of that myself.

01;04;20;03 - 01;04;48;13
Dave Quak 
Or is now. The strange thing is, through the worst years of my mental health have become the best use of my spiritual intimacy. And so I love Jesus now, Sarah. Like I love him and know him, and he knows me. And I feel like I've got a relationship ship that's not functional in the sense like, okay, God, I need some power to preach on Sunday, or I would love some money to run this program.

01;04;48;13 - 01;05;12;06
Dave Quak 
It's all of that stuff I just don't even care about anymore. It's literally like you and me in this together. God, let's walk together. And that's the extent of it. And so all the things like performance anxiety have fallen off to the extent where, you know, if I had a started a podcast in my 20s, 20s, back to 20 days, the annoying days, it would have been all about numbers and influence and stuff.

01;05;12;06 - 01;05;36;29
Dave Quak 
Now I don't I literally can't care less because I'm being obedient and I'm in relationship with God. And so, you know, and I approach people who I pray about, like yourself. And if they come on, I see it as God's hand. So it's not like I'm trying to curry favor with people or network or whatever. It's not all of that stuff got dropped off in my brokenness.

01;05;36;29 - 01;05;41;03
Dave Quak 
And and now I just don't care. You know, it's it's pure now.

01;05;41;05 - 01;05;54;08
Speaker 2
And it's less about what a business framework or the world's framework would look like. And actually going, I don't know what I'm doing, God, but I feel that you're leading me in this direction. Yeah, cool. Let's figure this out. One step at a time.

01;05;54;11 - 01;06;13;25
Dave Quak 
It's so true. Sarah. And look, what the listeners can't see is we're in a room. And at the moment we are blessed because we got a good recording and everything went well. But so many times the dog starts barking, the neighbor starts like, you know, it's like I'm feeling like being obedient, but it doesn't make it like this perfect little.

01;06;13;27 - 01;06;30;21
Dave Quak 
We're not in a cool studio with soundproof walls and stuff. We're just operating in the favor of God. Okay? No one mow their lawns, no dogs bark, you know, and that's okay, because this is the season and I'm just committing it to him to see what the next season is and just walk in it.

01;06;30;21 - 01;06;52;11
Speaker 2
Really and really, that's him training us a little bit, isn't it? Like, will you be faithful with the little and along the journey he is purifying our hearts and he is showing us where sometimes our hearts do stray and go, oh, but Lord, no one liked that or whatever. And it's like, oh gosh, that's gross. That's so, you know, okay, take that away.

01;06;52;13 - 01;07;16;22
Speaker 2
But if we didn't start somewhere and I just want to encourage even our listeners like, it takes courage to just start something new with, like you feel after this podcast, you need to have a conversation with someone like your husband, your wife, a close friend, where you just go. I don't really know why I need to share this with you, but I need to share with someone.

01;07;16;25 - 01;07;42;12
Speaker 2
If you feel like you need to start a business something radical like both Dave and I have just done. Whether you're just craving that space where you can take off your mask. It takes courage, and it can be painful, but it's more painful staying stuck. So whatever that looks like for you, because. Yeah, Dave and I have been praying, and we do believe that God wants to do things through this podcast.

01;07;42;19 - 01;08;09;11
Speaker 2
Whatever your next step is, can we just encourage you to take courage to just put your heart in that place of the hands of Christ and just trust him with whatever comes next? Because, yeah, he he's he's wanting this exciting adventure with us, isn't it? Like he doesn't want life to be boring and not depressing. And yeah, so we have seasons like that, but when you can see everything as like the great adventure, I call it the yellow Brick road.

01;08;09;16 - 01;08;32;23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Constantly skipping down the yellow brick road, not knowing where I'm going. That that's the life he has for us. And I think one thing I love about working with the heart is as you're unlocking all of these barriers to tend to that wound, people are becoming themselves more and more. Yeah. And stepping into their identity and their purpose and their destiny.

01;08;32;26 - 01;08;36;11
Speaker 2
So yeah, it is just having the courage to just take that one first step.

01;08;36;14 - 01;08;52;09
Dave Quak 
So good. Sarah, if anyone listening wants to reach out to you and start on the therapeutic process, how do they get in touch with you about pure heart therapies? Are you only face to face? Do you do zoom? What's it like for a client to start the process with you?

01;08;52;10 - 01;09;10;24
Speaker 2
Sure. So I do want to say, even if you're just looking to find someone, because I did just be honest. Like, I might not be the right fit, and that's fine. But if you are feeling a bit of a nudge to go see someone, I'd be more than happy to help. I do have quite a few connections with Christian counselors.

01;09;10;26 - 01;09;32;05
Speaker 2
So if I'm not the right person, I'd love to help you find the right person. I want to start with that. For myself. You can find me on the internet. I have a website. If you type in pure heart therapies, I'll pop up straight away. Sarah Sibi Thomas. I'm also on Instagram a fair bit at pure underscore heart underscore therapies.

01;09;32;07 - 01;09;52;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you can either on my website there's a page that is make an appointment and you just put in an interest registration form. I do that because I like having a conversation with whoever is interested in my services first to make sure we're a good fit. Or you can just write me an email or text me my mobile numbers on there as well.

01;09;53;04 - 01;10;03;20
Dave Quak 
Awesome. We'll put it in the show notes as well. Links to these pages. Do you have any like a waiting list at the moment or how long in advance do people need to think this through?

01;10;03;26 - 01;10;12;18
Speaker 2
No, I think at the moment it's still very much in the growing phase. So typically the longest wait is 2 to 3 weeks.

01;10;12;20 - 01;10;33;21
Dave Quak 
And that's awesome. And I appreciate your concession that, you know, you can also pass people on to others. But by listening to this, I think the listeners would have got a heart about, you know, a glimpse into your heart, a glimpse into how you are wired and, you know, the ministry you provide. So that's super cool. Is there anything else you'd like to share as we start to wind up?

01;10;33;21 - 01;10;34;08
Dave Quak 
Sarah.

01;10;34;11 - 01;10;35;17
Speaker 2
I just want to thank you, Dave.

01;10;35;23 - 01;10;36;17
Dave Quak 
Oh, thank you.

01;10;36;20 - 01;11;01;14
Speaker 2
Because I know, like, we've gotten to know each other via Facebook messaging backwards and forwards. And it has taken a while to get here. Yeah. But I just appreciate that you have prayerfully connected with me and have allowed me to share my heart in this place. And again, like, I just want to honor you for the space you're creating for every kind of person to come to Christ and to receive his love and his healing.

01;11;01;14 - 01;11;04;01
Dave Quak 
It's thank you, Sarah.

01;11;04;01 - 01;11;16;09
Speaker 2
I think it's bigger than you know as well. And I think, you know that you're just being obedient. Yeah, with the now. But God knows what's up ahead. And I will be cheering you on and praying for you for all of it. Awesome. He shared.

01;11;16;11 - 01;11;26;07
Dave Quak 
That. And thank you so much for coming on. We ask our guests to pray for the listeners at the end. So if you could finish this up by doing that, that would be awesome.

01;11;26;09 - 01;11;28;27
Speaker 2
I will get emotional. I already feel the presence of God. Yeah, I.

01;11;28;27 - 01;11;29;28
Dave Quak 
Know, it's crazy.

01;11;30;01 - 01;12;14;25
Speaker 2
Oh Lord, I just thank you. I thank you for who you are. I thank you that you have been here throughout this entire podcast this morning, and I thank you for every beautiful listener that is under the sound of my voice right now. I thank you, Holy Spirit, that you have been ministering to their heart. And Lord, I thank you that it says in your word that you are the great counselor and that you promise to collect every single tear and you promise to take our hand and Nestle us under your beautiful wings and protect us, to guide us, to fight for us.

01;12;14;28 - 01;12;40;29
Speaker 2
And I just want to pray. I just want to pray that every single person listening would just find you on a whole nother level, that they would receive your healing balm like never before, so that people would just feel like they're receiving their next steps for their own beautiful journey of healing with you. I thank you, Lord, that you promised to never give us too much than we can handle that.

01;12;40;29 - 01;13;10;00
Speaker 2
You are a beautiful, gentle, patient, loving God and God. I even just feel to pray for, an anointing from mothers and fathers in the faith to start stepping up. I just feel that in this generation now more than ever, we we need the the moms and dad to the faith, no matter what age they are, to actually step up and take take back what the enemy is trying to steal from families.

01;13;10;02 - 01;13;33;09
Speaker 2
That women and men would come alongside the broken hearted and show them the love of Christ, and just embrace them with the big arms and just show them that you are welcome here. I pray that the church will become a welcome space where people would find their sense of belonging and freedom go out. I just pray a blessing over every single person that is listening.

01;13;33;11 - 01;14;01;01
Speaker 2
A blessing that is not just for them, but for the generations that follow them. A generational blessing, Lord, that you would just pour out your love, and that love would be the very thing that drives this generation, that our families would be just completely sold out on your love and putting family first. Thank you that you promised in your word that you will restore fathers back to their children and mothers back to their children.

01;14;01;01 - 01;14;11;09
Speaker 2
We just declare that we prophetically speak that out, that this is the generation of the restoration of families in Jesus mighty name. Yes. And amen.

01;14;11;17 - 01;14;19;06
Dave Quak 
Sarah. Thank you so much. God bless you richly.

01;14;19;09 - 01;14;42;18
Dave Quak 
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out Some souls.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak some mind. Souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.

01;14;42;21 - 01;14;52;12
Dave Quak 
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Somewhere and Souls.