"Down, Not Out" - Chris Cipollone

00;00;01;09 - 00;00;27;03
David Quak
Welcome to sunburned Souls. I’m Dave Quak And on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being as a pastor that struggles with mental illness. I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of life. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.

00;00;27;06 - 00;00;48;08
David Quak
I am here today with Chris Cipollone, who is a speaker and author and podcaster and pastor based in Sydney. He's a follower of Jesus, and he's passionate to connect people of faith to everyday life experiences. And like me, he lives on that intersection of faith and mental health. One thing I like about Chris is his openness and his honesty.

00;00;48;08 - 00;01;05;23
David Quak
And you can check out some more of his work on his podcast, which is called Dead Elephants, which you can also see on his website. Chris Cipollone.com. Chris, welcome, mate, and thank you for being here. Why don't we just dive in and start with, you know, where are you at at the moment? What are you doing with yourself yet?

00;01;05;23 - 00;01;26;15
Chris Cipollone
Pastor. Originally a school teacher, went to Bible college and, pastor of the church for ten years between 2000. And let me get it right. 2010 and 2020? Yes. And in the time that has passed since then, been doing a lot more of the speaking, writing stuff. Have a side hustle in property. So that's just a fun little fact about me.

00;01;26;22 - 00;01;32;28
Chris Cipollone
A bit of a jack of all trades. But ministry is really where my heart is, and property is what? Funds that to be able to happen more and more.

00;01;33;01 - 00;01;38;20
David Quak
Yeah. Bit like literal tent making. So they sell property development or renovations or property development.

00;01;38;20 - 00;01;41;15
Chris Cipollone
Yes. Nice. So modern tent making I guess you could say.

00;01;41;17 - 00;01;53;09
David Quak
Yeah it is. It really is. I read your book over the last couple of days and I really found it insightful. It's got a lot about your just your journey. You're not scared to share your story. How did that come about, Chris?

00;01;53;10 - 00;02;18;01
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, sure. So the book picks up, with me, checked into a psychiatric hospital, and that was back in 2014. So basically what happened was between 2012 and 2014, I went off to Bible college or been doing some work for church, but there was a ministry decision that had to be made at the end of that Bible college journey, and I was spiraling more and more into anxiety.

00;02;18;01 - 00;02;37;09
Chris Cipollone
And subsequently I learned depression that went with that. So six weeks before I was due to graduate, I ended up in hospital, really facing a crisis in many ways. I wouldn't call it a faith crisis in the sense of I wasn't doubting my salvation, but certainly a ministry crisis and a masculine crisis, if I can put it that way.

00;02;37;15 - 00;02;55;03
Chris Cipollone
Just trying to work out who am I in the world? What am I? What do I have to offer? And how do I think ultimately of myself when I'm meant to have it all together and mastered theology? And yet here I am in a hospital, so the journey basically started with asking myself, what would I say to somebody else in this situation?

00;02;55;05 - 00;03;14;25
Chris Cipollone
And I've learned three years of theology. Sometimes us preachers went up great at practicing what we preach to others. And so what would that process look like to practice to myself? What I would preach, that started journaling, writing, thinking that ultimately turned into the book that God has been able to use to bless many other people, which is a huge privilege.

00;03;14;27 - 00;03;23;17
David Quak
Yeah, excellent. I like the style of the book too, Chris. Like lots of short chapters. Reflections at the end. Why did you put the reflections at the end of each chapter?

00;03;23;19 - 00;03;37;04
Chris Cipollone
I think one of the the funny things about becoming an author is I'm not much of a writer, and that's like the first thing they say don't do. If you want to be an author, you have to be a writer. But I don't know. I like to think of it the other way and say, well, I can empathize with the non writer.

00;03;37;07 - 00;04;07;17
Chris Cipollone
I can empathize with the person who picks up a giant volume and goes, no, that's not for me. So, as a fellow struggler in that way, I wanted to write short chapters and those reflections to be able to just digest in bite sized chunks by seeing the sense of people, maybe don't want to do something super heavy, but also in the awareness that, those of us who struggle with mental illness just may not have the deep cognitive capacity at that point to take on, these profound, wordy sentences.

00;04;07;17 - 00;04;22;21
Chris Cipollone
And we just need something straightforward when we're really struggling. So so that was the thinking behind it. And the hope is that it's not just something to consider, but something to practice. And I suppose that's where the reflections start to come in as well.

00;04;22;24 - 00;04;29;11
David Quak
That's excellent. You said the book starts in the psychiatric hospital. What led up to that if you don't mind me asking Chris.

00;04;29;15 - 00;04;49;06
Chris Cipollone
Yeah sure. So so as I said, my final year of Bible college was 2014. And in about January or February I'd had an offer for a ministry position at the church I was currently serving in as a student, minister. But I had been thinking leading into college two years prior that I was going to go into school chaplaincy.

00;04;49;06 - 00;05;07;28
Chris Cipollone
I'd been a school teacher, so it's one of those wrestles between my plans and God's plan started to come into intersection. And so, the senior pastor at the church was really gracious. They said, you don't have to decide at the time. You have until basically September. We'll probably need to shore up budgets and staffing by then.

00;05;08;01 - 00;05;18;03
Chris Cipollone
Just enjoy your last year of college and see how it goes. Which on the one hand was incredibly gracious because every last year Bible college student, that's their dream, that they have something to go to.

00;05;18;03 - 00;05;18;21
David Quak
Yeah, sure.

00;05;18;22 - 00;05;37;18
Chris Cipollone
And I can just enjoy the final year of study. But for me, it was probably the worst thing that could have happened. Not not through fault of the senior pastor, but just in terms of my own, spiraling and dis functioning. I just thought about it all the time. Yeah. Should I, should I go, I should I go B is there a c maybe God's going to reveal a day.

00;05;37;24 - 00;05;59;18
Chris Cipollone
Who knows. Yeah, but that kind of ambiguity really did my head in and and as I said, I went in thinking that I was anxious. But the the psychiatrist very quickly diagnosed it as depression. Yeah. Because what was happening was, every time I considered an option, whatever it was in my depressive state, all I could say was the negative in it.

00;05;59;21 - 00;06;22;14
Chris Cipollone
And so dread started to, fill in and, and I thought I could strategize my way out of it. So if I just creatively think my way around this problem, I'll find that that that promised land experience that God's giving me in my future. And and it just never happened. And what happened was, more and more sleepless nights, more and more anxiety, more and more fear.

00;06;22;16 - 00;06;40;28
Chris Cipollone
To the point where I had a deadline about this job and I couldn't make the decision. And not only could I not make a decision about the job, but it was a flashpoint for the fact that I didn't know where I was in life. I had no internal sense of stability or peace. And I'd been seeing a psychologist.

00;06;40;28 - 00;07;03;28
Chris Cipollone
I'd been on medication and but I just knew I needed more help was how I explained it to my wife. And yeah, the next logical step was hospitalization, because, that was the next level of intervention that I currently hadn't explored. So, I went in voluntarily, frankly, with very little hope that it would do anything. But I thought, I've got two kids and a wife at this point, I owe it to them to try something.

00;07;04;00 - 00;07;07;00
Chris Cipollone
And and really, in that moment, it was a turning point for me.

00;07;07;02 - 00;07;10;25
David Quak
Okay. What actually happens in the hospital over those two weeks?

00;07;10;26 - 00;07;13;14
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, it's a it's a good question because I had no idea.

00;07;13;17 - 00;07;15;13
David Quak
Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;07;15;13 - 00;07;36;06
Chris Cipollone
And I think I'd only known one person who'd ever done it. And it's kind of one of those things that you don't really want to probe too much because it's a bit of a taboo, which is part of why I wanted to write the book was to, I suppose, normalize that. I went in on a Friday, and the reason I remember that being significant is they essentially have programs and classes that run Monday to Friday.

00;07;36;09 - 00;08;04;04
Chris Cipollone
So by the time I actually got admitted, there wasn't a lot to do over the weekend beyond get used to the reality that, hey, I'm in a psych ospital. The first thing that I did was to, connect me with a psychiatrist. So not a psychologist, but a psychiatrist to look at my medications. And on reflection, I think that was one of the great mercies was it's a safe place to be able to, quite frankly, explore a bit of trial and error around with medication and just get that right.

00;08;04;06 - 00;08;21;28
Chris Cipollone
And for me, that had been a long journey. And I finally found, a type of medication that works. But it was a while coming. So I would say the first purpose is to do that. What else happens? It's kind of like day classes. Day programs? Sometimes you would have a group session with other, patients.

00;08;22;00 - 00;08;45;08
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. In more, I suppose, explicit, explicit psychological theory. But other times it was just art therapy or even gardening therapy, just practicing mindfulness, all that kind of stuff. So it's I guess it's a combination of more acute psychological support and more acute, pairing with a doctor who can just walk you through the medical part of it as well.

00;08;45;11 - 00;09;03;21
David Quak
Okay. Yeah. That sounds I mean, in a way, it kind of sounds nice, you know, like it's it's. Yeah. Because when it passes and, you know, make it big decisions like that. And you said you've been a teacher, which is, it's not a walk in the park. Yeah. You know, a couple of weeks, someone speaking into your life.

00;09;03;21 - 00;09;06;24
David Quak
And though it sounds I think I could handle some of that.

00;09;07;00 - 00;09;25;23
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. It's funny because I'm starting to explore the world of spiritual retreats now and what I'm doing, and, it's it's got a bit of that. And frankly, I was very blessed in that I had private health insurance and I was able to go to a hospital that didn't feel too much like a hospital. Yeah, I've been to others that feel a lot more sterile, a lot more clinical.

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;50;24
Chris Cipollone
I think the hardest part was just the emotional identity. The reality is, I'm in a psych hospital. And what does that say about my life and where I'm at at the moment? Yeah, but in terms of the actual experience, yeah, you're right. I mean, it was esthetically beautiful. The classes were helpful. And the other nice thing is you meet other people in there who are kind of just like you, who, you know, in inverted commas, seem very normal, but just just having a hard time with life.

00;09;50;24 - 00;10;08;23
Chris Cipollone
It's it's not the kind of historical picture of a sanatorium, we might think in the olden days or anything like that. Yeah. So, yeah, in that way, it was, it was very helpful. And it was quiet. It removed the stigma a lot, and they'd worked very hard to make that happen. So, yeah, it was rejuvenating.

00;10;08;23 - 00;10;14;09
Chris Cipollone
Once I got through the the identity crisis of what am I doing here in the first place?

00;10;14;11 - 00;10;19;13
David Quak
Yeah. That's awesome. I might just pause for a set. Chris, I think there's a dog barking.

00;10;19;16 - 00;10;22;00
Chris Cipollone
I don't know if you could hear it. Yeah, okay.

00;10;22;06 - 00;10;37;14
David Quak
You've been doing this longer than me. I didn't realize how many things just intruder recording. Yeah, and I let the neighbors jump in the pool. Or it can be anything. Hey. Or the other person tapping a pen. Yeah. So you might not see, but I'm on a chair away from a table because I'm a phygital. Okay. And.

00;10;37;16 - 00;10;38;23
Chris Cipollone
But please stop me if you need to.

00;10;38;24 - 00;10;48;02
David Quak
Yeah. No, no, that's a good, Chris man, you just mentioned spiritual retreats, and lately I've been thinking a lot about that. What's drawn you towards that?

00;10;48;03 - 00;11;15;07
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. Look, you got me at a really interesting time, Dave. I'm about awake from knowing one way or another whether it will happen, but I'm close to securing some seed funding to start something very exciting, which is, holistic. Christian flourishing is the tagline of the ministry where we bring together clinical psychologists and relationship counselors and biblical counselors under one roof to really, help the whole person, hot, hot soul and mind.

00;11;15;09 - 00;11;40;13
Chris Cipollone
And part of that, as well as an in-person clinic that offers telehealth services, is something I'm really excited about, which is the Spiritual Retreats component. So I'm hoping and dreaming and praying that that will take a lot of different paths. Retreats for pastors, marriage retreats, spiritual renewal retreats, even evangelistic retreats for those who are interested to explore Christianity in a way that maybe they're not comfortable to go inside the four walls of a church building.

00;11;40;13 - 00;12;05;14
Chris Cipollone
So, it's something that I think is desperately needed, and particularly, I suppose, in, in the Protestant tradition. I guess I'm not the kind of person who, is super anti-Catholic or anything like that, but I'm also aware that, in our particular tribes, I'm keen to explore the intersection of, I guess, robust theology and deep spiritual formation and not seeing that as an either or.

00;12;05;16 - 00;12;33;06
Chris Cipollone
Actually, I think we sometimes separate those unhelpfully, but actually my, my thesis is, good theology should get you to, a love of God deeply and a love of neighbor, rather than it being the end goal. And I think somewhere in there particularly, and John MacArthur and others have written, I guess, a lot recently, the deep spiritual formation, particularly that can happen through trials and adversities in your life.

00;12;33;09 - 00;12;56;02
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, that's been my experience. There's all this kind of ground work that you do intellectually or theoretically. You listen to sermon after sermon and you're in growth groups and whatever, and that's all great. In my experience, you really receive the return on investment on those kinds of things when you hit that crisis point. And what is that house built on?

00;12;56;05 - 00;13;10;12
Chris Cipollone
So so I'm really hopeful that in helping other people navigate the challenges of their life, that not only is that not a threat to your faith, but it can actually be some of where God does his greatest work, and that's where the retreats come in.

00;13;10;14 - 00;13;22;20
David Quak
I love it. It's funny you mentioned, you know, anti-Catholic people. I don't know how we could be when it's guys like Henry now and. And the Catholic guys who've led the way in retreats for years. And we've taken decades to catch on.

00;13;22;20 - 00;13;51;26
Chris Cipollone
Yep. And I think if and what I've learned subsequently is, you know, you look at the early church fathers, even since the Reformation and, this was something that people did. Yeah. Something's happened along the way in the last hundreds, 200 years where we've kind of dropped it. Yeah. And and as John Mark says, this is the time to bring them back because we're so digitally saturated, we're so busy, we're so distracted that we just need to center ourselves and have time not just learning about God, but time with God.

00;13;52;03 - 00;13;54;17
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. And that's really my heart for this.

00;13;54;19 - 00;14;21;27
David Quak
Oh, I love that, Chris. We actually just did the four weeks of his Sabbath teaching on practicing the way. Yeah. So we did it as a family for just myself, my wife and my kids. Then we did it as a life group and then we did it as a church. And so I've gone through it three different times and I think it's finally starting to land, you know, like it goes against the grain of everything of consumerism and speed and hurry and ministry success and everything else just to stop.

00;14;22;03 - 00;14;22;19
Chris Cipollone
Yep.

00;14;22;22 - 00;14;28;10
David Quak
And once you do, though, your soul comes alive again. So, yeah, these retreats keep keep us posted on this.

00;14;28;10 - 00;14;45;22
Chris Cipollone
Certainly will and I and I think it's going to be confronting for a lot of people. Yeah. Like hospital was not a retreat in that way for me. But but that journey of choosing to stop and reflect and and not try to go around your pain, but to step right into it. Yes. And see what God is trying to tell you through it.

00;14;45;22 - 00;15;06;11
Chris Cipollone
That's really confronting. But I really do believe that if you can do that well, and and this was one of my reflections in writing my book and being hospitalized, Christians of all people, should have the most ability to say, I don't have it all together. Yeah, because that's what our whole faith is based on, that we need a savior greater than ourselves.

00;15;06;11 - 00;15;24;16
Chris Cipollone
And so yeah, and yet functionally, we so often want to kid ourselves, okay, to other people that we've got it all together. And God's saying, no, no, no, you don't. And that's why I've sent you Christ. And it's like, hey, you can you can delve into that with security, knowing that your identity is in him. So, yeah. I'm, I'm hoping this bears a lot of fruit.

00;15;24;19 - 00;15;41;15
David Quak
I think it's awesome. I really like to that you point out that, you know, on the retreat, there may be times of beauty sitting by a stream and everything, but when we're quiet and like that, it does become confronting because we're not distracted anymore. And the things from deep in our souls are forced to be addressed.

00;15;41;16 - 00;15;44;10
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. You're letting that gentle whisper get a little bit louder.

00;15;44;12 - 00;15;49;23
David Quak
And I'm so glad to hear you're doing it with a team, you know, psychologists and holistic health and people who can get alongside.

00;15;49;28 - 00;16;09;23
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, that's always been my thesis of the book. And the subsequent speaking ministry is I'm very careful to tell people I'm not a psychologist and I, I need to make sure I don't ever promise that. But but what I'm saying, conversely, is, if you don't think about mental health also through the prism of theology, you're missing something about the whole person that God has made you to be.

00;16;09;28 - 00;16;25;08
Chris Cipollone
So. So my whole thing is it's not an either or. Let's bring in the best clinicians. Let's bring in the best theologians. Let's bring in the best relationship counselors, do it all together under one banner. Because the other thing I've learned is a lot of these guys are on islands by themselves, wanting to be part of a team.

00;16;25;10 - 00;16;32;11
Chris Cipollone
So watch this space. If you'd asked me in a weeks time, I'd be able to say definitely yes or no, but the seed funding is looking likely.

00;16;32;14 - 00;16;57;07
David Quak
Oh, that is fantastic. You mentioned the theological approach, Chris. What what is your theological understanding of mental illness and and how that works? Because I think that may be one of the biggest misconceptions I feel led to speak into. Now, I don't have great experience as you do yet. But what theologically, how do we wrestle with this intersection between faith and and mental illness and what that looks like?

00;16;57;12 - 00;17;16;26
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, I mean, there's so many angles to it, right? That's the identity angle, the sin, the angle, the healing angle. The the faith angle. Is this happening because I don't have enough faith. So there's all sorts of platitudes that we like to throw out, you know, pray more, have more faith. I mean, I guess what I'd say in a couple of ways.

00;17;16;26 - 00;17;38;08
Chris Cipollone
First of all, a God can use discomfort and suffering, as I said, so, so don't automatically be threatened by it. Now, it's very easy for me to say that now, ten years on in my journey. I certainly wasn't feeling that then, but but even that word failing is an interesting one in a lot of faith. If you fail something, where's the room to challenge that theologically?

00;17;38;08 - 00;17;59;11
Chris Cipollone
That if I don't feel like God cares about me, does that automatically mean God doesn't care about me? Well, you'd have to say no. I need to validate the feeling that it's real. But I also need to have another narrative in my mind, in my spirit, to say there were promises in Scripture. There is historic faithfulness. Data points to say God hasn't forgotten me.

00;17;59;14 - 00;18;19;25
Chris Cipollone
And ultimately that's evidence where the crucified son saying, look how much I care about you. Look how Romans five eight, I've demonstrated my love for you. So there's that kind of stuff. I think the identity piece is a big one for me. I say it in the book, but realizing that when everything else was crashing down in my life, I,

00;18;19;27 - 00;18;48;11
Chris Cipollone
I'm not a great pastor. I'm not a great husband. I'm not a great father at this point. But I am still a beloved child of God. Yes. And that's something that is, secure. I say, whether I'm at the highest of highs or the lowest of lows. And ironically, the freedom that came with that constant identity, not in my ability to perform, but in God's faithfulness over me, actually helped get me out of it, amongst all the other, in inverted commas, more secular traitements as well.

00;18;48;13 - 00;19;17;09
Chris Cipollone
That went with that. I think since a really interesting conversation in this super, fraught. And we need to be very careful with it. And this is, I think, probably the biggest, spot where perhaps secular psychology and Christianity is most at loggerheads. What I would say about sin is that, if Adam and Eve had not fallen, I don't think we would have mental illness in the world.

00;19;17;11 - 00;19;35;24
Chris Cipollone
So, say, in a general state of humanity. Why, you'd have to say that depression, anxiety, mental illness. This is a product of the fall. That's not automatically the same as saying that I am depressed because I've committed a specific sin. That's right. So first of all, we need to differentiate between the general and the specific.

00;19;35;24 - 00;19;38;00
David Quak
Yep. Super super important there.

00;19;38;03 - 00;20;15;02
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. At the same time and super gently and super slyly, if we overlay that with the Book of Proverbs, for example, like, I don't think I got depressed because I did something wrong. But with my depression, I can make wise or foolish choices. Yes. And so the somewhere in there, there is a way for Christians. And here's the key with a deep sense of security before God to say that, okay, this might not be my fault on a meta level, but I may need to, curb some things that are compounding this pain through poor choices that I'm making.

00;20;15;02 - 00;20;31;00
Chris Cipollone
You know, I might want to anesthetize this trauma with alcohol or sex or anger or whatever it is. And as Christians, we need to repent of that stuff. But but that's not the same as saying kind of like jibes. Friends, all your kids have died because you've sinned against the Lord. That's bad theology.

00;20;31;05 - 00;20;31;26
David Quak
Yeah.

00;20;31;29 - 00;20;50;25
Chris Cipollone
And yet Jobe is still faced with a choice with how he responds to that, as we all are. So sin does come into it, but we need to be really careful and thoughtful in how we bring it in, because I think if done the right way, it can lead to reflection and growth. But if it's done the wrong way, it can lead to condemnation and the doubting of one's own salvation.

00;20;50;27 - 00;21;08;19
David Quak
I really love that, Chris. And it it kind of. I don't know how it acknowledges the presence of sin, but not the personal like condemnation. Like you just said the word condemnation because so often like, I mean, Jesus even had to address this because people came up and said, you know who sin? So this man was born blind.

00;21;08;19 - 00;21;11;23
David Quak
He wouldn't have to address that if that wasn't a worldview some people carry.

00;21;11;25 - 00;21;14;03
Chris Cipollone
Yep. And he says neither.

00;21;14;05 - 00;21;16;07
David Quak
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It's not because of that.

00;21;16;07 - 00;21;33;27
Chris Cipollone
No, no. God is God is not a retributive god. He doesn't get vengeful on us. There's no cause and effect there. Yeah. The cause and effect of being, a child of Adam and Eve, but not in that specific way. And at the same time, we're all faced with that challenge of when we're not functioning well, we are more susceptible.

00;21;33;27 - 00;21;58;20
Chris Cipollone
And the humanness might say toxic behavior or destructive behavior. The Christian would probably say sinful behavior at times. But even if we get there again, it hasn't. It's not the reason we're depressed. And even if we do decide it, that that there is stuff that we've done or not done that hasn't been great. We do that with a deep sense of security and repentance, that we can always come back to the Lord and always seek reconciliation with our neighbor.

00;21;58;20 - 00;22;24;00
Chris Cipollone
Because frankly, when we're not functioning well in our mental health, I'll speak for myself. I'm not the easiest person to be around. Yeah, and I compound pain with pain not just for myself, but for people around me. I get very short, very impatient, very angry, more than I normally would. And I need to be really careful, on the one hand, to make space for that and be kind to myself in it, while also not validating it and going, oh, it's just the depression.

00;22;24;00 - 00;22;38;05
Chris Cipollone
Get over it. Yeah, that's that's also not a healthy response. But the difference to come back to your original question of what difference does theology make in all of it. We're coming at this from a position of deep security. And that's the difference.

00;22;38;07 - 00;23;02;11
David Quak
Yeah. You do use the phrase gospel identity a lot through your book. I've got one here quotes that says we're not defined by bipolar schizophrenia or addiction. These may all be significant parts of our journey through life, but they are not the core of who we are. Rather, we are beloved children of God. And this more than any other truth, must impact how we navigate mental illness.

00;23;02;14 - 00;23;10;18
David Quak
You know, that was one of your earlier statements in the book. And for me, I was like, okay, I want to read on because if that's the foundation, then this does bring freedom.

00;23;10;22 - 00;23;39;29
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, it does, because whether we know it or not, we live in a meritocracy. You know, we live in a world that says if you perform at work, you'll get promoted. If you do well at school, you'll get higher grades. That's not God's economy. Yes. God's economy is. You are deeply loved no matter what. And again, there's something beautiful about, having everything fall down around you like I did and yet still find the foundation is still firm.

00;23;40;01 - 00;23;57;15
Chris Cipollone
Because you actually realize what you should have realized the whole time that everything you had was in Christ. Anyway. Yeah, I think I had a clear a faith at that moment in hospital than I ever had before, because I realized that, you know, we say, you know, we are God's children and everything we have is in the Lord.

00;23;57;15 - 00;24;17;29
Chris Cipollone
And all that kind of stuff. But day to day, we don't really live like that's true. And for me, one of the Bible passages that really took on new life was the widow and the two coins and there's something about having very little and yet choosing to give it. There's something very pure about that. And it's not actually about the amount that you can produce or perform.

00;24;18;02 - 00;24;39;11
Chris Cipollone
That that widow, by earthly standards, was a failure, as by earthly standards, I was a failure when I was in psych ospital. But Jesus looks at that worship and that offering and says, that's what I desire. Yes. It's not actually about. Yes, steward your family and steward your ministry well. But ultimately, deep down, you are my child.

00;24;39;11 - 00;24;46;03
Chris Cipollone
One John three one and I realize that more than ever, when I was in hospital.

00;24;46;06 - 00;25;06;10
David Quak
Yeah. And and even building on that, Jesus's affection for that woman. But not just her. Anyone who seemed to be in touch with the brokenness or, you know, the humility that they carried, he seemed to have super affection for them. You know, them. And and I think a lot of it is because they didn't think they had it together.

00;25;06;15 - 00;25;08;08
David Quak
Yeah. Any special place.

00;25;08;08 - 00;25;28;29
Chris Cipollone
And if you look at the sermon on the Mount, who are the blessed? It's the maiden. And smiled. It's, you know, the bleeding woman who just touches the hem of the garment, the paralytic that gets lowered down through the roof? There's something about hitting a point of desperation, both, spiritually and emotionally, that that, Paul Tripp says there's no neutrality in suffering.

00;25;28;29 - 00;25;49;16
Chris Cipollone
And I think he's right. It either drives you further away from God or further to him, but you're never the same. Yes. And I think if we can lean into that and see it as an opportunity, not an easy opportunity, right? It's not making light of the difficulty. It's no, it's profoundly hard. And at the same time, it also provides you with a choice.

00;25;49;19 - 00;25;56;15
Chris Cipollone
Where am I going to run to this? I could run to something that's not God, or I could run into the arms of my loving Heavenly Father. Yeah.

00;25;56;17 - 00;26;18;08
David Quak
No, I think that's fantastic, Chris. I know for myself during my times of darkness was when my understanding of God's love for me went from my head to my heart, where I went from knowing about him to fully knowing him and knowing his grace and his his affection for me and not the not that he just loved me, but he liked me as well.

00;26;18;08 - 00;26;43;02
Chris Cipollone
And I remember, I remember that that love to like paradigm as well. And it just was eye opening. And I think for me becoming a human father and saying that, okay, my kids aren't always easy, but fundamentally I am so glad they're in my life. Yeah, for all of their warts and all of their frustrations, that if I can feel a measure of that as a as an imperfect human being, how much deeper my satisfaction by my perfectly loving father.

00;26;43;05 - 00;26;55;17
David Quak
It's crazy, isn't it? I know, just getting to that place where it's becoming real. It's so freeing. Yeah. What do you think? It takes us so long to get there, Chris?

00;26;55;19 - 00;27;18;09
Chris Cipollone
I think are distracted. Yeah. We we with and I and like, I get it. We we are tangible human beings who struggle with the abstract. And if I've got something right in front of me, whether it's, in my case, a property business or even even a church to steward people who I want to like me. Whatever it is we we take the easy thing that's right in front of us.

00;27;18;09 - 00;27;43;16
Chris Cipollone
And let's face it, yes, we see a lot of God in the creation and in his church. But he is also, invisible at the same time. You know, Jesus says, blessed are you all. You've believed because you've seen. Blessed are those who believe and yet have not sight. It's hard. Yeah. And so I think it's we we hear the lessons and yes, deep in, deep in God's spirit, we genuinely believe it.

00;27;43;18 - 00;28;06;05
Chris Cipollone
But it's also just really easy to be quiet, quite an amnesia about that. And, and go out into what we might call everyday life and just not look for God in those things. And one of the things I've learned is, so may the people I've met who seem to have the deepest faith of the people who they can see God in the everyday, like, really, and there isn't that sacred secular divide.

00;28;06;05 - 00;28;26;01
Chris Cipollone
And that's I think where we go wrong is we just forget, and where we're distractible and, and as I said, it's not a condemnation word. It's it's understandable. But when those distractions fail, you and you hit that moment of desperation, you ask, well, what have I got left? And I realized all I've got is all I had anyway, which was God.

00;28;26;08 - 00;28;31;22
Chris Cipollone
He was the only sure hope I ever had. It's just these things promised something that they couldn't deliver.

00;28;31;24 - 00;28;57;05
David Quak
Yeah. Excellent. Chris, what do you think there's any unhelpful, practices that are still hanging around the mainstream Protestant church that, you know, we'd love to see people get set free from, like, I think the idea, I hope, anyway, that you know who sin. So this man would spawn blind. I think people are starting to become aware that that's not good theology.

00;28;57;08 - 00;29;14;03
David Quak
Yeah. You know, maybe slowly, but at least it's sort of starting to get around. Do you think there's any unhelpful practices or or even the flip side, what do you think churches or faith communities could do better to minister or support or encourage people with mental illness?

00;29;14;06 - 00;29;33;04
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, it's it's a huge question. And I've been blessed to be able to speak in enough, communities of faith to say trends and patterns that have come through. So you're right, the, the, the poor theology around retributive principle, which is who sent this man or that? I don't see much of that. So I'm, I'm happy to say that.

00;29;33;07 - 00;29;57;17
Chris Cipollone
Yes. Even this, this awareness of just saying, oh, let's just pray through it as the only thing you might need to do. There's an awareness that actually that's important, but it may not be the whole picture. Yeah. So there's there's good stuff happening, I think in the theological space, if I can put it that way. I think where we need to grow is in the pastoral space, which is ultimately an outpouring of theology anyway.

00;29;57;19 - 00;30;14;21
Chris Cipollone
But if we just kind of look at the the day to day care aspect, I think the thing that's missing in the awareness of our churches is that, mental illness is often, a chronic illness and not an acute one. Yeah. So I speak about this in the book, like at least at my church, and I'm not dissing it.

00;30;14;21 - 00;30;33;27
Chris Cipollone
It's so good. We we will cook meals for new parents, so we'll cook meals if someone's had to have a surgery or whatever. But the problem with the meal paradigm is it assumes that you're 6 to 8 weeks away from being better, and we'll just support you to be on your way. Yes. I think what churches need to realize and understand is this is a really long side by side journey.

00;30;33;29 - 00;30;52;26
Chris Cipollone
And when we're committing to love one another, well, it's going to be a slow burn. It's going to be a lot of ups and downs, quite frankly. It's going to be really unrewarding sometimes because you're going to be sowing into people and issues, and it may be years even, dare I say, decades before you can see tangible progress there.

00;30;52;28 - 00;31;12;05
Chris Cipollone
That's a really hard reality to accept, and it's why I think we need the complement of professionals and clinicians around us, because that is too much of a burden for a pastor or a community to do by themselves. Yeah. So I think where we're getting it wrong is around our expectation of time frames. Well, as a mind thing, I would say.

00;31;12;07 - 00;31;29;01
David Quak
You actually, when I read that in your book, I was like, oh, I think I've done that because you used the example of the broken leg. Yeah. And I think I may have said that in the last six months, you know, just as trying to illustrate to somebody, it is as obvious as a broken leg, but it's not.

00;31;29;07 - 00;31;30;14
David Quak
Yeah. But you know.

00;31;30;16 - 00;31;51;25
Chris Cipollone
And the intention is so. Right. Yeah. That's right. It's it's right. It's it's what that statement is trying to say is it's a legitimate condition. Yeah. You don't need to, not get help for, Yes. But the difference is, subconsciously, what I'm trying to draw out for communities of faith is to say that there is a different treatment plan between a broken leg and depression.

00;31;52;00 - 00;31;55;06
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, and it's probably going to take a lot longer in the latter.

00;31;55;09 - 00;32;17;17
David Quak
I think that's good enough. Learned from that actually, in the way I can communicate as well. Because yeah, being a kid, you know, it's it's different. Yeah. No it's it's a yeah, it's a whole nother level. I like that you also picked up on a video that concluded and it said something at the end like, you know, as the nations walk away from God, anti-depressants are on the rise.

00;32;17;20 - 00;32;23;16
David Quak
And I remember you saying that doesn't really, make you feel very easy. Could you explain that a little bit more, Chris?

00;32;23;18 - 00;32;41;04
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, I, I mean, first of all, the idea of a nation walking away from God, I guess I'm Australian. And so my vision is not for a theocracy. I'm not I'm not on about a Christian nation. I want about the kingdom of God and the sense of. So that's probably in one way. And and look, I it's just an oversimplification.

00;32;41;04 - 00;33;04;08
Chris Cipollone
I think there's so many other things going on. Absolutely. I mean, my whole message is drawing nature. God can help you. And so the flip side, walking away from God will harm you. So it's not that I'm against that sentiment. If and he's the if, if it's dealt with, through a whole person lens because the statement implies that if I just had more faith, I wouldn't be depressed.

00;33;04;08 - 00;33;29;24
Chris Cipollone
And that's way too simplistic. There's there's chemical realities here. There's relational realities. We have external challenges around, screen time and distraction. Yeah, we're facing existential crises like climate change and housing affordability. These, yeah, these things that make us feel uneasy. But we don't have a have an easy solution to them. Just on a human psychological level, it's really easy to be overwhelmed by those things.

00;33;29;24 - 00;33;39;13
Chris Cipollone
So it's not that I would disagree with the statement if it was paired in a more balanced way, but it's not. It's not my vision of a country, and it's not my vision of holistic restoration.

00;33;39;15 - 00;33;57;07
David Quak
Hey, man, I'm with you on that. Chris. I also really appreciate what you said. You know, like, with the bringing of the meals they come from, it does come from a place of love. But I think deeper it comes from a place of community. And you do highlight the importance of community in tracking with people with mental illness.

00;33;57;13 - 00;33;59;25
David Quak
Have you found that to be true in your faith community, like?

00;33;59;25 - 00;34;36;06
Chris Cipollone
Absolutely. So, what didn't come out in my book because it hadn't happened in my life yet, was that I relapsed pretty badly two years ago for the first time, and I knew statistically it was likely to happen and and it happened, and it just hit me afresh. And I wasn't hospitalized this time around. But those who I could really closely confide in, as well as clinical professionals and, and I think the case for communities of faith, to see themself as deeply valuable as long as I say them selves, what they are, that is, not to treat or to diagnose that that's not the church's job.

00;34;36;09 - 00;35;02;05
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, that's a professional space that we need to leave to professionals. But the flip side of that is what professionals can't do is to walk side by side with love in a way that brothers and sisters in the church can. Yeah. So I think the key for churches are not to jump to conclusions, not to jump to assumptions about the person, but to really just curiously slow over the long term.

00;35;02;07 - 00;35;19;10
Chris Cipollone
Just check in. How are you going? Do you want to go and get a cup of coffee? Do you need anything? And that's it's not a, it's not a clinical reality, but it's, it's a familial really a reality that says, to the church, you actually have something really important to offer.

00;35;19;10 - 00;35;34;02
David Quak
I love that. All right, Chris, so what's going on in your life and ministry now? And if people want to connect with you or read more about some of your, you know, initiatives, or get in touch with what's going on in the world of Christy Maloney.

00;35;34;05 - 00;35;54;05
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, no, thanks for asking. If if this has brought anything up conversationally, check out the book. It's called down, not out. Depression, anxiety, and the difference Jesus makes. Bit of a scoop. I'm also under contract for a second book with my publisher, so that's coming. Hopefully it'll hit shelves by Christmas time. It's it's in the pastoral space.

00;35;54;05 - 00;36;18;17
Chris Cipollone
It's not strictly about mental illness, but, the book is essentially, about the two great commands to love God and love your neighbor. Yes. My hope for the book is is a few things. Number one, to help Christians come back to the beauty of first principles. To not lose the forest amongst the trees and come back to that fact of, Jesus says in Matthew 2240 that all the law and the prophets hang on these two commands.

00;36;18;17 - 00;36;41;11
Chris Cipollone
So yes, it's not just that that better, it's that they encompass everything. And so to be able to get a grasp on love is to be able to get a grasp on faith. And then my hope is to, explore what does God mean by love? You know, to, to explore a word that's that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people in a in a complex, pluralistic world.

00;36;41;18 - 00;37;09;17
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. What does it mean to love and what does that look like in practice? So, that's coming up. So stay tuned for that. I'm available for speaking. If your church or your conference is looking for a speaker in a mental health or pastoral space, and, and as I said, I hope to have some really exciting news in the next few months about something that will be launching, that is going to bring together, Christian clinical professionals, with theologians, and a of spiritual retreats as well.

00;37;09;17 - 00;37;11;13
Chris Cipollone
So, stay tuned for that.

00;37;11;19 - 00;37;19;27
David Quak
That's awesome. And I'll put in the, in the podcast notes, links to all of your pages and everything. And then, dead elephants. Is that still going?

00;37;19;28 - 00;37;46;18
Chris Cipollone
Yes, I did elephants is a podcast I do with a friend of mine, Duncan Robinson. He was, breakfast radio host down here in Sydney. The concept is really to to kill the elephant in the room. Yeah, in terms of the church. So what are those things that you might not hear a preacher speak about? What are the things that are a bit taboo in your church and, and sometimes we'll come to clearer answers than others, but the hope is just to be able to have the conversation and to say that this is God's world.

00;37;46;21 - 00;37;58;24
Chris Cipollone
Nothing is outside of his wisdom. And so we shouldn't be afraid to explore curly topics. And if if that can help Christians think through their own faith and the implications of their faith, then then I'm happy with that.

00;37;58;26 - 00;38;17;13
David Quak
Yeah. And I want to just endorse that and condone that. I watched a couple of your episodes, Chris, and you guys are funny, but it's also like it is really pointed in and it is the things you want to talk about. Yeah, the elephant in the room is the thing, the things you can't really rip out from the pulpit or you can't, but just with a favorite of, feedback.

00;38;17;19 - 00;38;25;10
David Quak
Yes. So I thought that was awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you speak engagement. So I mean, I want to get you up here. Where are you based for anyone who wants to get you.

00;38;25;17 - 00;38;38;04
Chris Cipollone
Yeah. So I'm based in Sydney, but available nationwide. So yeah, I do, I do a little bit in the States as well, but, for the most part, I'm in Australia, and so even though I'm here, don't let that stop you from getting in touch.

00;38;38;07 - 00;39;00;27
David Quak
I love it, Chris. And, I'd love in a moment if you could pray for us as we start winding this up. But my three favorite words of your book were the last three words you, loved. I thought it was just the best way to finish a book that, you know, explores faith and mental health and mental illness and what that looks like.

00;39;00;29 - 00;39;15;19
David Quak
If we can have these conversations under the umbrella of the truth that we are loved by God, you know, what did you and I mean, we spoke about love earlier, but just just as you lead into prayer, you are loved. Why would the last three words?

00;39;15;22 - 00;39;42;09
Chris Cipollone
Because when I'm at my worst, I don't feel worthy of anybody's love. I don't feel lovable. It's hard for me to love myself. It's hard for me to believe that anybody else would love me. And so. And yet God is telling me he does. And so if I can leave that as the final thought for someone who is feeling unloved and unlovable to confront that reality inside, that's not true.

00;39;42;11 - 00;40;02;03
Chris Cipollone
And that's good news. Yes, it's good that that's not true. Never forget that again. God does not love you because of what you can do. You are not a human doing. You're you're a human being and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are made in his image. You are dearly loved by him. Again, God has demonstrated that love on the cross.

00;40;02;03 - 00;40;19;27
Chris Cipollone
He hasn't just said it. He's put his money where his mouth is. And if you ever doubt when you're in the pit of despair whether God actually loves you, just go back to Christ on the crossing guard. That's the evidence that I need to believe that. So that's why I finish with those words. Because when you're depressed, it's really hard to believe it.

00;40;19;29 - 00;40;25;26
David Quak
Yes. Thank you so much, Chris. If he could onerous by praying us out, that would be fantastic.

00;40;25;28 - 00;40;55;00
Chris Cipollone
Yeah, absolutely. Our Lord and Father God, we thank you that you are both of those things that that you are our Lord who sits above this universe, stewarding it, shepherding it, sovereignly rolling it. And and the mystery, of course, is that you're also a father. You are intimately attuned with the needs of each of your children, perhaps even more than they are themselves, that you see this stuff coming before wave and do.

00;40;55;02 - 00;41;21;08
Chris Cipollone
And Lord, thank you. That one is not at the expense of the other, that you are both, strong and you are kind, you are majestic and you are loving. You are powerful, and you are gracious, father, for anybody who is listening to this who is struggling right now, help them to see that, while faith is not the only piece of this puzzle, that faith is also a really important one.

00;41;21;10 - 00;41;42;14
Chris Cipollone
And I pray that, each person would lean into this pain that they may be feeling. Not because it's easy, but because in that pain, there are opportunities to come to your feet. Like that bleeding woman who just wanted to touch the hem of your garment and say, Lord help me. For Dave's ministry, for my ministry, which is ultimately your ministry that we serve.

00;41;42;14 - 00;42;02;24
Chris Cipollone
And, Lord, would you bless it, would this be about the sake of your name and your glory in your kingdom and not our own? And would many more people be able to be helped and see the dignity that they have in Christ? And that whether they are well-fed or whether they're hungry, that we can all learn the secret of contentment in all things, because we have you.

00;42;02;24 - 00;42;10;05
Unknown
In all times. Amen. Amen.

00;42;10;07 - 00;42;33;18
David Quak
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out some bentos.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak. Some of that souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.

00;42;33;21 - 00;42;43;13
David Quak
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off sharing a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Summer souls.