00;00;01;09 - 00;00;26;16
Dave Quak
Welcome to sunburnt Souls. I'm Dave Quak and on this show we explore life and faith and our mental well-being as a part of that struggles with mental illness. I get to chat to people like me, people that love Jesus and follow the way of Christ while dealing with the messiness and brokenness of lives. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode.
00;00;26;19 - 00;00;38;11
Dave Quak
You guys are super blessed this morning and this evening because I'm across the ditch today with doctor Rob Waller. He is over in Edinburgh. Good to see you, Rob. How are you?
00;00;38;13 - 00;00;44;05
Dr Rob Waller
Fantastic day. Thank you so much. And yeah, the wonders of technology I think we worked out were were nine hours apart.
00;00;44;06 - 00;00;45;12
Dr Rob Waller
So I'm sitting.
00;00;45;12 - 00;00;48;08
Dr Rob Waller
Here nursing my morning coffee, and you're just beginning to unwind.
00;00;48;08 - 00;00;49;01
Dr Rob Waller
At the end of the day.
00;00;49;09 - 00;00;59;23
Dave Quak
Yeah, yeah, I would have a whiskey, but I want to be able to think clearly. Because I got you for an hour and a half. And you're a psychiatrist based over in Scotland. You've been here to Australia? That role.
00;00;59;28 - 00;01;02;24
Dr Rob Waller
I have. So I was just thinking the last time I was.
00;01;02;24 - 00;01;05;21
Dr Rob Waller
In your neck of the woods was round about.
00;01;05;23 - 00;01;08;12
Dr Rob Waller
Oh, 1998.
00;01;08;16 - 00;01;09;16
Dr Rob Waller
Something like that.
00;01;09;17 - 00;01;19;16
Dr Rob Waller
No, I'm making that. I'm making them also in 1991. Wow. So 1991 99 to I just finished school and, I grew up in Mauritius, actually. Really?
00;01;19;18 - 00;01;20;17
Dr Rob Waller
Dad's a water engineer.
00;01;20;17 - 00;01;23;25
Dr Rob Waller
So we were, Oh, well, we lived up there for preschool, and.
00;01;23;25 - 00;01;28;22
Dr Rob Waller
When I finished school, I basically spent six weeks traveling around Australia, so. Oh, cool. I've done this at a big.
00;01;28;29 - 00;01;29;26
Dr Rob Waller
Big four cities.
00;01;30;08 - 00;01;32;06
Dr Rob Waller
Never managed to get into the middle, but I.
00;01;32;06 - 00;01;32;26
Dr Rob Waller
Did Perth.
00;01;32;26 - 00;01;35;02
Dr Rob Waller
And Melbourne and Sydney and.
00;01;35;02 - 00;01;35;12
Dr Rob Waller
Brisbane.
00;01;35;19 - 00;01;37;07
Dave Quak
It is a giant country.
00;01;37;28 - 00;01;40;05
Dr Rob Waller
It's absolutely vast and it's changing so much.
00;01;40;05 - 00;01;41;13
Dr Rob Waller
I mean, one of the things that.
00;01;41;16 - 00;01;41;22
Dr Rob Waller
We.
00;01;41;22 - 00;01;47;18
Dr Rob Waller
Were talking about in the lead up to the podcast is, you know, when I came to Australia, Gold Coast wasn't really a thing. It was Brisbane.
00;01;47;24 - 00;01;51;29
Dr Rob Waller
And then there was Surfer's Paradise. And I've surfed at Surfers Paradise.
00;01;52;01 - 00;01;55;08
Dr Rob Waller
Well, when I say surfed, I've knelt on a surfboard.
00;01;55;10 - 00;02;01;08
Dr Rob Waller
And then I was also down in Australia in about 2018. I lived in, in Auckland.
00;02;01;08 - 00;02;02;01
Dr Rob Waller
In New Zealand.
00;02;02;06 - 00;02;03;09
Dave Quak
What were you doing in Auckland?
00;02;03;09 - 00;02;04;14
Dr Rob Waller
So basically I was.
00;02;04;17 - 00;02;04;26
Dr Rob Waller
A ghost.
00;02;04;26 - 00;02;21;13
Dr Rob Waller
For a couple of years. I just opened a new, new psychiatric unit. And basically my job was to kind of just set it up and get processes in place. So I really enjoyed doing that, working on the North Shore for a couple of years. And then we headed home, in time for the kids to get into high school and things like that.
00;02;21;15 - 00;02;33;23
Dave Quak
And that's awesome, man. Robot love that. Did you pick up any Australian slang while you were here? That is kinda related to my last name. Now my name's Dave Kwak. Do you know why that might be funny?
00;02;33;25 - 00;02;41;21
Dr Rob Waller
Well, yeah, apart from the way you spell it. Which is also interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So. So a lot of people, you know, have funny names for psychiatrists.
00;02;41;27 - 00;02;45;23
Dr Rob Waller
They call them quacks or trick cyclists or or something like this.
00;02;45;26 - 00;02;48;08
Dr Rob Waller
Which I always find quite funny is because I think of.
00;02;48;08 - 00;02;51;14
Dr Rob Waller
Myself mainly as a doctor. So I've got a medical degree.
00;02;51;16 - 00;03;01;02
Dr Rob Waller
I'm a scientist. I don't really do psychotherapy, if that makes sense, you know? So the fact that, you know, you're sort of talking to people and.
00;03;01;02 - 00;03;03;14
Dr Rob Waller
Making them better to a certain extent, there's more what a what a.
00;03;03;14 - 00;03;04;28
Dr Rob Waller
Psychologist or a.
00;03;04;28 - 00;03;07;11
Dr Rob Waller
Therapist does than a psychiatrist.
00;03;07;11 - 00;03;08;20
Dr Rob Waller
But but there is the joke, isn't.
00;03;08;20 - 00;03;10;17
Dr Rob Waller
There, about, you know, how many light.
00;03;10;17 - 00;03;11;06
Dr Rob Waller
Bulbs.
00;03;11;08 - 00;03;14;02
Dr Rob Waller
How many psychiatrist does it take to change a light bulb?
00;03;14;04 - 00;03;15;25
Dr Rob Waller
And the answer is, well, it doesn't matter.
00;03;15;25 - 00;03;21;02
Dr Rob Waller
How many psychiatrists you've got, but the light bulb needs to want to change.
00;03;21;04 - 00;03;33;14
Dave Quak
That is good. I see the quack I know is not just a psychiatrist, but a dodgy doctor. But you're not dodgy. You studied at the University of Cambridge. Like Cambridge, Cambridge like the Cambridge.
00;03;33;14 - 00;03;34;07
Dr Rob Waller
Cambridge, Cambridge.
00;03;34;07 - 00;03;38;11
Dr Rob Waller
Not the American one. The English one. Yeah, the 1200.
00;03;38;11 - 00;03;40;08
Dr Rob Waller
It was found that it was. Yes. So like.
00;03;40;08 - 00;03;42;14
Dave Quak
The Cambridge. What was that like man.
00;03;42;27 - 00;03;51;25
Dr Rob Waller
It was, it was, it was kind of slightly crazy. I mean, you know what we're talking about jokes and slightly, slightly taking the Mickey out of people. There's this story told.
00;03;51;25 - 00;04;03;18
Dr Rob Waller
About these, American tourists who were wandering around Peterhouse College, which was the first anarchist college, and they'd seen about about 1200. And, these terrorists are wandering around, and they I spoke to one of the.
00;04;03;18 - 00;04;20;22
Dr Rob Waller
Porters and said, gee, is this is this college pre-war or. And the reporter just looked at him and said, madam, it's pre America. So, you know, it is it is slightly weird that, yeah. You know, I've been to the.
00;04;20;22 - 00;04;22;16
Dr Rob Waller
Institute of Mathematics where Isaac.
00;04;22;16 - 00;04;27;17
Dr Rob Waller
Newton was professor and Stephen Hawking was there.
00;04;27;17 - 00;04;28;11
Dr Rob Waller
Afterwards, you know.
00;04;28;18 - 00;04;29;24
Dr Rob Waller
So it's kind of crazy.
00;04;29;24 - 00;04;36;09
Dr Rob Waller
You know, I studied, biology and genetics in the building where Francis Crick and Watson discovered DNA.
00;04;36;11 - 00;04;46;09
Dr Rob Waller
So, you know, you get this kind of crazy stuff going on. And, you know, but it's also, I have to say, it's also a slightly weird place.
00;04;46;09 - 00;04;49;02
Dr Rob Waller
So it's quite small. It's only about 100,000 people.
00;04;49;05 - 00;04;49;22
Dr Rob Waller
So you go.
00;04;49;22 - 00;04;59;29
Dr Rob Waller
There as an undergraduate and and so it it's great tremendous place to spend. So I was there five, five, six years from 92 to right about 97, 98.
00;05;00;03 - 00;05;19;06
Dave Quak
That's amazing. Like as you would know, in Australia, we've got our indigenous heritage. But when it comes to Western buildings or, you know, the colonial buildings, if you find one 150 years old, it's like considered ancient and heritage listed, whereas you guys have got, you know, that's what the in the 1200s. That is just next level. Yeah.
00;05;19;09 - 00;05;22;19
Dr Rob Waller
And there's a whole bunch of weird things around that. So for example, I've got
00;05;22;22 - 00;05;35;02
Dr Rob Waller
A neuroscience degree. So in the middle of medicine, you get a chance to sort of take, take, take a year doing and doing a bachelor's degree. So I've, I've got a neuroscience degree, which in virtually every country of the world would be a, a BSc degree.
00;05;35;06 - 00;05;38;22
Dr Rob Waller
I actually have a BA. So I have a BA.
00;05;38;25 - 00;05;48;13
Dr Rob Waller
From the University of Cambridge. And the reason for that is it's slightly weird, is that the University of Cambridge only offers two bachelor's degrees out of suspension of arts and Bachelor of Divinity.
00;05;48;15 - 00;05;50;13
Dr Rob Waller
And that's why the organization.
00;05;50;16 - 00;05;56;23
Dr Rob Waller
That, I'm involved with called Mind and Soul, the Mind and Soul Foundation, the most important word there really is the end, because it.
00;05;56;23 - 00;06;00;29
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of draws together this sort of division, this, this sort of.
00;06;00;29 - 00;06;03;10
Dr Rob Waller
Dichotomy that we've put between, you know, the.
00;06;03;12 - 00;06;03;16
Dr Rob Waller
The.
00;06;03;16 - 00;06;05;03
Dr Rob Waller
Rational mind and the.
00;06;05;03 - 00;06;07;22
Dr Rob Waller
Spiritual soul. And I think that's where a.
00;06;07;22 - 00;06;11;12
Dr Rob Waller
Lot of our, misunderstandings come from is that, you know, we try and take a.
00;06;11;14 - 00;06;19;20
Dr Rob Waller
Scientific approach to it or a theological approach or social approach or whatever it is, you know, and we get we get ourselves.
00;06;19;20 - 00;06;21;17
Dr Rob Waller
In a mess because we're trying to draw lines where they.
00;06;21;17 - 00;06;31;03
Dr Rob Waller
Aren't. So, yes, one thing we should do is get get rid of BSE and give her a with an arts degree and then we'd be. So this, this is where the word university comes from, the word universities.
00;06;31;03 - 00;06;40;15
Dr Rob Waller
Bringing together diversity into one thing. And it's founded on, the University of Alexandria, where apparently Saint Luke, who wrote the Gospels, went to study.
00;06;40;17 - 00;06;53;01
Dr Rob Waller
As a physician. And he he didn't just go to study medicine, he had to study in every school. He had to study in rhetoric and mathematics and art and also in medicine. So he he really had a broad education.
00;06;53;01 - 00;06;54;15
Dr Rob Waller
And we often think, or, you know.
00;06;54;17 - 00;06;55;18
Dr Rob Waller
Luke's quite, quite Greek.
00;06;55;18 - 00;06;58;00
Dr Rob Waller
So he in his understanding, he's writing to a Greek audience.
00;06;58;00 - 00;07;01;24
Dr Rob Waller
But he had this and this university education.
00;07;01;26 - 00;07;07;01
Dr Rob Waller
And, you know, you think about the sort of American thing where, you know, you have C major in one thing and minor in something else.
00;07;07;07 - 00;07;11;08
Dr Rob Waller
This is actually really good. So I think to too early in our lives.
00;07;11;08 - 00;07;11;26
Dr Rob Waller
00;07;12;01 - 00;07;16;01
Dr Rob Waller
You know, we're sort of down this narrow route where, where we're sort.
00;07;16;01 - 00;07;21;00
Dr Rob Waller
Of saying, right, I'm a scientist or I'm an artist or I'm the pastor, or I'm the social worker, and.
00;07;21;00 - 00;07;22;16
Dr Rob Waller
We we view everything through.
00;07;22;16 - 00;07;29;20
Dr Rob Waller
That lens. And I think that causes us a lot of mistakes, particularly when we come to this whole area of faith and mental health.
00;07;29;23 - 00;07;56;00
Dave Quak
Rob, that's exactly why I reached out to you, is because I'd been on your website, mind and soul and the resources on there. Fantastic. Like so good. I recommend them to anyone. Exactly what you spoke about. And this is why I would love for you to speak into, like, how do we work out as followers of Jesus, how to do this spiritual, mental, physical, you know, how do we do that soup in the middle where it is literally we like?
00;07;56;00 - 00;08;19;28
Dave Quak
Okay, so my story is, Rob, that I'm a pastor and I also have bipolar. So I've got this like spiritual leadership going on, but I've also got this internal wrestle going on. I get prayer, I'm also medicated. I try my best to do exercise and eat well. And it's all just this kind of like messiness. In the middle on our website, we say we want to speak about the intersection of faith and mental health.
00;08;20;00 - 00;08;38;04
Dave Quak
And then the other day I was with a friend and he goes, but what is that, Dave? He's like, can you get somebody on to speak about the intersection of faith and mental health? What does that look like? What's God? What's biological, what's spiritual? Rob, can you please tell us? Because it is hard to figure out, man.
00;08;38;07 - 00;08;41;25
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, I think I think one of the problems, of course, is that nobody's.
00;08;41;25 - 00;08;43;23
Dr Rob Waller
An expert in.
00;08;43;26 - 00;08;45;14
Dr Rob Waller
The whole area.
00;08;45;24 - 00;08;48;24
Dr Rob Waller
So people are an expert in one area or the other. So they come from.
00;08;48;26 - 00;08;49;15
Dr Rob Waller
A theological.
00;08;49;15 - 00;08;53;26
Dr Rob Waller
Point of view. So they look at the Bible and say, okay, the the core issue here is the.
00;08;53;26 - 00;08;54;24
Dr Rob Waller
Heart of man.
00;08;54;26 - 00;08;58;26
Dr Rob Waller
It's it's broken, walked away from God, you know, needs to be.
00;08;58;26 - 00;09;00;06
Dr Rob Waller
Restored, not just.
00;09;00;06 - 00;09;11;27
Dr Rob Waller
To sort of once saved and nothing else. It's an ongoing restoration and growth. And, you know, we know that the the human heart is fickle. You read Romans seven and, you know, you read about the battle that that Paul is having.
00;09;11;29 - 00;09;12;20
Dr Rob Waller
And then you get someone.
00;09;12;20 - 00;09;21;23
Dr Rob Waller
From sort of my perspective, let's say you comes with a sort of, you know, the diagnostic manual. And we say, right, okay. Bipolar is normally something that starts in,
00;09;21;25 - 00;09;22;15
Dr Rob Waller
Mid-Twenties.
00;09;22;18 - 00;09;24;17
Dr Rob Waller
And perhaps with hindsight you see some.
00;09;24;17 - 00;09;25;17
Dr Rob Waller
Symptoms prior to that.
00;09;25;24 - 00;09;32;20
Dr Rob Waller
But generally speaking, it's, a late brain maturation problem, if that makes sense. Likewise. Likewise, schizophrenia.
00;09;32;20 - 00;09;36;29
Dr Rob Waller
And it's relatively genetic. And then and then you get sort of depression, which is kind of a bit more.
00;09;36;29 - 00;09;43;24
Dr Rob Waller
Muddy in the middle. And sometimes people will have good mental health and want of a better term. And then they have a big breakdown.
00;09;44;14 - 00;09;46;07
Dr Rob Waller
Or other people will always.
00;09;46;07 - 00;09;48;08
Dr Rob Waller
Struggle with their mental health.
00;09;48;11 - 00;09;50;02
Dr Rob Waller
And then you bring in the,
00;09;50;20 - 00;10;00;14
Dr Rob Waller
You know, the social theorists who say, actually, depression is a social disease and it's caused by isolation. And all we really need to do is community. We need to tolerate people and include people.
00;10;00;14 - 00;10;03;16
Dr Rob Waller
And and that's the way to treat depression. So so you got all these different.
00;10;03;16 - 00;10;05;23
Dr Rob Waller
Competing theories and.
00;10;05;26 - 00;10;06;11
Dr Rob Waller
I think one of the.
00;10;06;11 - 00;10;10;29
Dr Rob Waller
Problems is an old sort of adage isn't that, you know, if all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
00;10;11;03 - 00;10;11;15
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah.
00;10;11;28 - 00;10;16;02
Dr Rob Waller
And I think sometimes we need a hammer. Sometimes we need a screwdriver.
00;10;17;01 - 00;10;19;20
Dr Rob Waller
And I think it's a matter of sort of. I think it probably is.
00;10;19;20 - 00;10;31;00
Dr Rob Waller
A soup in the middle. I'm not sure there is an intersection. There's definitely no line. I can tell you that having done this for sort of 20 years or so, there's definitely no line. It's a matter of sort of working out what works. So take for example.
00;10;31;03 - 00;10;31;26
Dr Rob Waller
The more.
00;10;31;26 - 00;10;39;27
Dr Rob Waller
Biological things, you know, we could say bipolar schizophrenia was wanting to dementia in that, you know, things where.
00;10;40;00 - 00;10;41;27
Dr Rob Waller
This seems to have this.
00;10;41;27 - 00;10;44;22
Dr Rob Waller
Feeling that there's a definitely an illness of some kind going on.
00;10;44;22 - 00;10;46;28
Dr Rob Waller
I think the more you are towards.
00;10;46;28 - 00;10;55;18
Dr Rob Waller
That and the more that medication has got to root, and also the more we can see that, brain scans and we know that this there's things going on. We know medications work.
00;10;57;10 - 00;10;57;25
Dr Rob Waller
And then at the.
00;10;57;25 - 00;11;17;12
Dr Rob Waller
Other end of the spectrum, you've got situations where, like, for example, I'm about to start work on on Thursdays in the homeless, GP practice in Edinburgh. So I'll be working with, with people who are effectively, effectively sleeping on the street. And, you know, if you think about your basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what's the point in doing fancy.
00;11;17;12 - 00;11;19;00
Dr Rob Waller
Therapy when you haven't dealt.
00;11;19;00 - 00;11;20;10
Dr Rob Waller
With the first three, which are.
00;11;20;10 - 00;11;24;21
Dr Rob Waller
Warmth, safety and food? You know, we've got to get those things right.
00;11;24;21 - 00;11;36;26
Dr Rob Waller
First of all. Now, sometimes psychosis can be a barrier to them staying in accommodation. So, perhaps some, some, some medical treatment is is part of that early thing. But there's certainly sort of.
00;11;36;28 - 00;11;38;05
Dr Rob Waller
You know, limited.
00;11;38;05 - 00;11;44;07
Dr Rob Waller
Psychology can be done. Well, someone is literally sleeping on the street because it's just it's just not their priority. They're living more minutes a minute.
00;11;44;29 - 00;11;46;13
Dr Rob Waller
So so there's definitely situations.
00;11;46;13 - 00;11;49;03
Dr Rob Waller
Where social models got to come through.
00;11;49;05 - 00;11;49;20
Dr Rob Waller
And then if you.
00;11;49;20 - 00;11;54;22
Dr Rob Waller
Take something like light depression, you know, it might be a combination of things. So you know.
00;11;54;22 - 00;11;57;07
Dr Rob Waller
That, you do better.
00;11;57;11 - 00;12;00;22
Dr Rob Waller
When you're taking an antidepressant on average, let's say, you know, you.
00;12;00;22 - 00;12;02;02
Dr Rob Waller
Know, that you.
00;12;02;02 - 00;12;08;02
Dr Rob Waller
Tend to function better. But you also know that first of all, there is some standing.
00;12;08;04 - 00;12;10;14
Dr Rob Waller
00;12;10;16 - 00;12;18;23
Dr Rob Waller
Self esteem, family narratives, relationships with parents, etcetera that are probably in the domain of psychology and therapy.
00;12;18;25 - 00;12;22;12
Dr Rob Waller
And then in all of these things, we've got the the.
00;12;22;12 - 00;12;27;27
Dr Rob Waller
Human heart at the center and the soul and the spirit and how that kind of works on it. And.
00;12;28;21 - 00;12;31;29
Dr Rob Waller
Probably the best illustration I can give is just.
00;12;31;29 - 00;12;49;10
Dr Rob Waller
In terms of some simple shape. So we used to think about mind and soul being a bit like two overlapping circles with a, like a Venn diagram. Two overlapping circles had a segment in the middle and we said like, this is mind stuff and this is soul or spirit stuff. And the middle is is the intersection.
00;12;50;15 - 00;12;51;01
Dr Rob Waller
The more.
00;12;51;01 - 00;12;53;18
Dr Rob Waller
I think about it, the more I think it's more like concentric.
00;12;53;18 - 00;12;55;03
Dr Rob Waller
Circles.
00;12;55;05 - 00;12;59;20
Dr Rob Waller
So what we have in the middle is we have the human heart, which is the bit of us that speaks to.
00;12;59;20 - 00;13;01;09
Dr Rob Waller
God through all of that inscription.
00;13;01;15 - 00;13;12;24
Dr Rob Waller
It's it's the bit that can be fallen and sinful. It's also the bit that can be restored. It's the bit where the Holy Spirit dwells within us, if you want to call it that. You know, it's it's that kind of core spiritual center.
00;13;12;27 - 00;13;13;21
Dr Rob Waller
Around.
00;13;13;21 - 00;13;20;24
Dr Rob Waller
That is our organic body, and that's both our aging bodies. And neither of us are as young.
00;13;20;24 - 00;13;26;26
Dr Rob Waller
As we used to be. Maybe, you know, we can feel our bodies getting a bit older, and that affects our spirituality to a.
00;13;26;26 - 00;13;27;07
Dr Rob Waller
Certain.
00;13;27;07 - 00;13;38;06
Dr Rob Waller
Extent. It doesn't affect it directly, but definitely affects it. You know, our spirituality is encased in this, this, this mortal coil. And also our.
00;13;38;06 - 00;13;41;11
Dr Rob Waller
Brains are around that. So if our brains are psychotic.
00;13;41;11 - 00;13;43;27
Dr Rob Waller
Or depressed, that will affect,
00;13;44;04 - 00;13;44;28
Dr Rob Waller
Spirituality.
00;13;45;04 - 00;13;47;04
Dr Rob Waller
And then realm that we've got.
00;13;47;04 - 00;13;53;17
Dr Rob Waller
Our environment, you know, our friends, our, isolation or our community, etc..
00;13;53;17 - 00;13;57;22
Dr Rob Waller
So if we think about it more like concentric circles or less talking.
00;13;57;22 - 00;14;01;10
Dr Rob Waller
About where the line is and we're talking about.
00;14;01;13 - 00;14;01;28
Dr Rob Waller
How to.
00;14;01;29 - 00;14;04;01
Dr Rob Waller
Each of those things.
00;14;04;04 - 00;14;05;09
Dr Rob Waller
How can we address.
00;14;05;15 - 00;14;18;06
Dr Rob Waller
Each of those, each of those things. So for example, if there's things in our external world that need adjusting, if there's things in our brain, in our body that need adjusting, and if there's things in a soul that need to just then.
00;14;18;09 - 00;14;18;29
Dr Rob Waller
We can actually.
00;14;18;29 - 00;14;23;15
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of do them all at the same time to a certain extent.
00;14;23;17 - 00;14;24;15
Dr Rob Waller
Well, perhaps talk later.
00;14;24;15 - 00;14;29;00
Dr Rob Waller
About some of those cases where you perhaps do need to discern.
00;14;29;02 - 00;14;37;00
Dr Rob Waller
But I think quite a lot of the time take medication, get saved and do spiritual development, work on.
00;14;37;00 - 00;14;38;06
Dr Rob Waller
Having good community.
00;14;38;07 - 00;14;40;01
Dr Rob Waller
Healthy habits. All of these can.
00;14;40;01 - 00;14;42;01
Dr Rob Waller
Happen at the same time. You know, they're you know.
00;14;42;04 - 00;14;44;03
Dr Rob Waller
They're not mutually exclusive.
00;14;44;06 - 00;14;57;21
Dave Quak
Yeah. No, I love that. And it's like it's let's use all the tools in the tool in the toolbox, spiritual, physical, emotional, you know, see the doctor, see the prayer warrior, see the. Yeah, the the personal trainer.
00;14;57;24 - 00;14;59;26
Dr Rob Waller
You know, and a lot of the time, I think because of what I was.
00;14;59;26 - 00;15;03;25
Dr Rob Waller
Saying earlier about this sort of division in our heads, we've got between scientific and.
00;15;03;25 - 00;15;07;16
Dr Rob Waller
Spiritual, we end up making silly decisions.
00;15;07;16 - 00;15;15;23
Dr Rob Waller
So, for example, I'm sitting on a very nice chair at the moment. It's not anything fancy. It's not one of those, you know, chairs that one's meant to have.
00;15;15;23 - 00;15;21;24
Dr Rob Waller
It's just I think it's just from Ikea. It's just a here, you know, it's a fairly normal chair, but,
00;15;21;26 - 00;15;30;24
Dr Rob Waller
It's been designed by an engineer. Now, personally, when I sit on a chair, I want to know that the guy who designed it was a good engineer. And it's for me to fall over when I sit on it.
00;15;30;27 - 00;15;32;10
Dr Rob Waller
And likewise, if I.
00;15;32;10 - 00;15;36;09
Dr Rob Waller
Had some idleness, rare endocrine or hormonal disorder.
00;15;36;16 - 00;15;37;14
Dr Rob Waller
I want to see the best.
00;15;37;14 - 00;15;52;01
Dr Rob Waller
Endocrinologist, on the Gold Coast, you know, I yeah, I want to see him. It doesn't matter if he's a Christian or not. It doesn't really matter if the person who designed my chair is a Christian. I want to see the best person. I want to, you know, I'm going to see a surgeon. I want to see the guy with the sharpest knife and the best infection record.
00;15;52;09 - 00;16;02;16
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And and then we sort of think, oh, but if I see a psychiatrist, it has to be a Christian. Yeah. So why does it have to be a Christian? And even if you get slight closer to the.
00;16;02;16 - 00;16;04;11
Dr Rob Waller
Spiritual center and, you.
00;16;04;14 - 00;16;04;28
Dr Rob Waller
Know, maybe sort of.
00;16;04;28 - 00;16;09;19
Dr Rob Waller
Seeing a psychologist and you're doing some of that sort of deeper, longer conversational work.
00;16;09;21 - 00;16;14;25
Dr Rob Waller
That there's some advantage, perhaps to that person being a Christian. But there's also some.
00;16;14;28 - 00;16;20;02
Dr Rob Waller
Some disadvantages to that person being a Christian. The two main ones are.
00;16;20;04 - 00;16;20;11
Dr Rob Waller
If you.
00;16;20;11 - 00;16;25;07
Dr Rob Waller
Choose a Christian, they might not be the best person. And secondly, if you choose a Christian, you sometimes.
00;16;25;07 - 00;16;26;03
Dr Rob Waller
Slip into.
00;16;26;03 - 00;16;33;21
Dr Rob Waller
What I call Christian ease. So for example, you say things like, oh, we just give it to God, or why don't you try and pray about it before we meet next time?
00;16;33;26 - 00;16;37;04
Dr Rob Waller
And you don't really bottom out what that means. And effectively it's.
00;16;37;04 - 00;16;40;15
Dr Rob Waller
A form of distraction and avoidance. Whereas actually a non-Christian.
00;16;40;15 - 00;16;44;07
Dr Rob Waller
Psychologist would say, what do you mean, give it to God? This is some.
00;16;44;07 - 00;16;45;01
Dr Rob Waller
Kind of magical.
00;16;45;01 - 00;16;45;21
Dr Rob Waller
Fantasy wish.
00;16;45;21 - 00;16;46;21
Dr Rob Waller
Fulfillment going on.
00;16;46;21 - 00;16;52;21
Dr Rob Waller
Here, you know, tell me, tell me what's actually happening there. So that will really help you bottom.
00;16;52;21 - 00;16;55;11
Dr Rob Waller
Out the detail of your thinking. And also you.
00;16;55;11 - 00;16;56;18
Dr Rob Waller
You get to share the.
00;16;56;18 - 00;16;58;06
Dr Rob Waller
Gospel with it as well, which is fantastic.
00;16;58;06 - 00;17;02;11
Dr Rob Waller
So, so I think sometimes we we because of this false.
00;17;02;11 - 00;17;03;13
Dr Rob Waller
Division, we end up sort.
00;17;03;13 - 00;17;04;10
Dr Rob Waller
Of not.
00;17;04;10 - 00;17;11;11
Dr Rob Waller
Integrating these tools. And we we come up with reasons for sort of going one way or the other that are not actually true.
00;17;11;13 - 00;17;12;08
Dr Rob Waller
00;17;12;10 - 00;17;25;05
Dave Quak
What one of your quotes I read said, I try to believe fully in the supernatural life as well as in the reality of illness. You know, like it's both. Right. That was in that was an old article that was like 2010. Do you remember that one?
00;17;25;07 - 00;17;25;24
Dr Rob Waller
No.
00;17;25;26 - 00;17;29;05
Dr Rob Waller
Not yeah. Which isn't surprising to the archive.
00;17;29;09 - 00;17;48;28
Dave Quak
No. Because listening, just so you know, listeners, Rob has written like five books and hundreds of articles and been interviewed all over the world. So there's no way he would have been able to pick that obscure quote just quickly off your five books. One of them, or nearly all of them have Nicky Gumbel, like, are you Nicky friends?
00;17;48;28 - 00;17;54;07
Dave Quak
Are you Rob because he's speaking? You speak at HTB a bit and he endorsed one of your books.
00;17;54;09 - 00;17;58;16
Dr Rob Waller
I've, I've met Nicky Gumbel. Nicky Gumbel is good friends with my coauthor.
00;17;58;16 - 00;18;13;01
Dr Rob Waller
So we'll run the heart. Oh, yeah. He's the guy I've written. Written most of the books with. He's a, an Anglican priest. And, he used to be on the staff at HTV, and, he's still very much involved in the networks, and he now works for,
00;18;13;03 - 00;18;14;01
Dr Rob Waller
These he's got a really.
00;18;14;01 - 00;18;14;14
Dr Rob Waller
Interesting.
00;18;14;14 - 00;18;14;28
Dr Rob Waller
Job, actually.
00;18;14;28 - 00;18;19;06
Dr Rob Waller
He works for the organization that looks after all of the.
00;18;19;08 - 00;18;20;03
Dr Rob Waller
Church plants.
00;18;20;03 - 00;18;20;28
Dr Rob Waller
The sort of alpha.
00;18;20;28 - 00;18;22;15
Dr Rob Waller
Related HTV related church.
00;18;22;15 - 00;18;25;00
Dr Rob Waller
Plants that they've done. Yeah. And,
00;18;25;03 - 00;18;26;07
Dr Rob Waller
The basic idea.
00;18;26;11 - 00;18;33;07
Dr Rob Waller
It's another example of this sort of over focus on one area. So, so, you know, you've got these keen.
00;18;33;07 - 00;18;34;14
Dr Rob Waller
Young,
00;18;34;16 - 00;18;36;23
Dr Rob Waller
Church leaders who you go and plant a.
00;18;36;23 - 00;18;41;07
Dr Rob Waller
Church and they go, go, go, go, go. You know, they're God's best thing to the kingdom. They wear the.
00;18;41;07 - 00;18;43;10
Dr Rob Waller
Underpants on the outside of their trousers.
00;18;43;10 - 00;18;46;23
Dr Rob Waller
You know, they're going to they're going to be super, super curate or super.
00;18;46;23 - 00;18;50;17
Dr Rob Waller
Super fast or whatever it is. And they go and minister in these really, really difficult situations.
00;18;50;17 - 00;18;53;04
Dr Rob Waller
And they often forget all of the.
00;18;53;04 - 00;19;10;24
Dr Rob Waller
Really basic stuff about, you know, learning how to say no to stuff and having a small group of accountability and something approximating a work life balance and, you know, making sure that keeping family at the center of things before ministry.
00;19;10;27 - 00;19;12;15
Dr Rob Waller
And so what happens is after two.
00;19;12;15 - 00;19;19;23
Dr Rob Waller
Or three years, everything explodes. And it's, a huge sort of loss and waste of time and energy because sometimes it falls apart.
00;19;19;23 - 00;19;20;25
Dr Rob Waller
Or or.
00;19;20;27 - 00;19;33;02
Dr Rob Waller
That person is taken out of ministry. So Will's job at the moment, and actually the sort of new focus for the Mind and Soul Foundation is to particularly work with, with the mental health of church leaders. And what we want to do is we want to sort of.
00;19;33;05 - 00;19;35;01
Dr Rob Waller
Try and restore leaders and.
00;19;35;01 - 00;19;37;06
Dr Rob Waller
Perhaps help them see tools that they.
00;19;37;06 - 00;19;39;00
Dr Rob Waller
They hadn't wanted to look at before.
00;19;39;00 - 00;19;40;05
Dr Rob Waller
Because they have various ideas.
00;19;40;05 - 00;19;44;08
Dr Rob Waller
About them. We want to sort of reframe leadership, that leadership.
00;19;44;08 - 00;19;48;06
Dr Rob Waller
Is not about you know, charging ahead, you know, setting the pace because you.
00;19;48;09 - 00;19;48;18
Dr Rob Waller
You're not.
00;19;48;18 - 00;19;55;11
Dr Rob Waller
A leader. You're just a guy out for a walk. If that's the case, you know, you're got to have people following it. You've got to understand the people who you're working with.
00;19;55;14 - 00;19;58;19
Dr Rob Waller
And and as a result, releasing mission.
00;19;58;19 - 00;20;09;18
Dr Rob Waller
So let's get people back in, back into the mission field and also be more productive over the long haul than perhaps they would be with a sort of, you know, when the, thank you, man, for the first couple of years.
00;20;09;20 - 00;20;17;00
Dr Rob Waller
And then it will all sort of sort of falls apart because everything was sort of so spiritual. So, you know, they lay on themselves.
00;20;17;00 - 00;20;18;21
Dr Rob Waller
All these burdens that God never laziness.
00;20;18;27 - 00;20;19;24
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. But.
00;20;20;05 - 00;20;23;14
Dr Rob Waller
Human ambitions, we, we lay them on ourselves, don't we?
00;20;23;26 - 00;20;25;16
Dr Rob Waller
And a lot of that comes from.
00;20;26;11 - 00;20;35;08
Dr Rob Waller
You know again I'm going to generalize a little bit here, but often some of these people, trying to sort of almost magically undo.
00;20;35;10 - 00;20;35;15
Dr Rob Waller
A.
00;20;35;15 - 00;20;46;01
Dr Rob Waller
Lack of fulfillment or a lack of affirmation earlier in their lives, you know, perhaps relationships with, with, with caregivers. And then all of a sudden they find their tribe. They they find their tribe in their 20s.
00;20;46;01 - 00;20;47;07
Dr Rob Waller
They they have a role.
00;20;47;07 - 00;20;48;24
Dr Rob Waller
They have significance. And it's.
00;20;48;26 - 00;20;49;23
Dr Rob Waller
It's all a bit of.
00;20;49;23 - 00;20;51;15
Dr Rob Waller
A sort of teetering tower.
00;20;51;18 - 00;20;52;20
Dr Rob Waller
And unless the.
00;20;52;22 - 00;21;01;04
Dr Rob Waller
Foundational work is done, which, either a good therapist or perhaps a Christian counselor or spiritual director could, could help you with.
00;21;01;06 - 00;21;03;12
Dr Rob Waller
You doing ministry for some of the wrong reasons.
00;21;03;19 - 00;21;05;18
Dr Rob Waller
That's the bottom line. And I think it's.
00;21;05;21 - 00;21;07;17
Dr Rob Waller
It's trying to sort of.
00;21;07;17 - 00;21;12;07
Dr Rob Waller
Realize that before it's too late. You know, if anyone listening is in that position, you know, it's.
00;21;12;10 - 00;21;13;13
Dr Rob Waller
It's it's never.
00;21;13;13 - 00;21;17;23
Dr Rob Waller
Too late to address that because first of all, God is is kind, generous.
00;21;17;23 - 00;21;18;24
Dr Rob Waller
And gracious.
00;21;18;26 - 00;21;20;12
Dr Rob Waller
And secondly.
00;21;20;15 - 00;21;22;16
Dr Rob Waller
It is always possible to.
00;21;22;17 - 00;21;25;19
Dr Rob Waller
To do that deeper work to to look within.
00;21;25;21 - 00;21;26;11
Dr Rob Waller
But it will take.
00;21;26;11 - 00;21;36;06
Dr Rob Waller
A conscious choice to to do that rather than carrying on with the old plan and expecting different results, which is, you know, one of the definitions of insanity, isn't it?
00;21;36;09 - 00;21;43;03
Dave Quak
All it is. Do you find that spiritual leaders are a little more resistant to seek help on that than the.
00;21;43;09 - 00;21;47;03
Dr Rob Waller
I think there's just more there's more openness. So I think one.
00;21;47;03 - 00;21;51;04
Dr Rob Waller
Of the reasons why my foundation has kind of sort of pivoted into this need as.
00;21;51;04 - 00;21;52;04
Dr Rob Waller
Work is, is.
00;21;52;04 - 00;22;12;00
Dr Rob Waller
Actually a number of a number of people in the sort of general Christian mental health space now. So there's there's a number of podcasts like yours. There's a center, within and in church in Sydney, a Sydney university, who we do a lot of thinking around this, this, there's a 2 or 3 charities that I could name in the UK, like in.
00;22;12;00 - 00;22;12;29
Dr Rob Waller
Suki Hope.
00;22;12;29 - 00;22;18;16
Dr Rob Waller
Or, Sanctuary Mental Health. I know they're in Canada and UK. I don't know if they're in Australia, but.
00;22;18;22 - 00;22;19;01
Dr Rob Waller
They.
00;22;19;01 - 00;22;19;26
Dr Rob Waller
Are providing.
00;22;19;26 - 00;22;20;18
Dr Rob Waller
Good.
00;22;20;20 - 00;22;23;00
Dr Rob Waller
General Christian mental health resources.
00;22;23;00 - 00;22;23;11
Dr Rob Waller
Like.
00;22;23;18 - 00;22;25;22
Dr Rob Waller
Like the Minotaur Foundation between ten years ago.
00;22;25;24 - 00;22;28;24
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And when we started this, if you.
00;22;28;24 - 00;22;41;04
Dr Rob Waller
Would go to your average typical Christian conference, there might be one seminar vaguely on the sort of mental health topic, whereas now there's probably 3 or 4, you know, seminars of various different kinds, and you can sort of dip.
00;22;41;04 - 00;22;49;03
Dr Rob Waller
In, and, you know, a lot of churches might do like 10th of October for example, is World Mental Health Day. So churches could.
00;22;49;03 - 00;23;01;10
Dr Rob Waller
Do a sort of mental health focus in October. And, you know, it could be just an opportunity to sort of front and center the topic in the church community, rather than it being sort of hidden over there with the the counselor or whatever.
00;23;02;04 - 00;23;05;29
Dr Rob Waller
But what we finding is that a lot of people.
00;23;05;29 - 00;23;08;08
Dr Rob Waller
Are still sort of approaching this.
00;23;08;08 - 00;23;10;04
Dr Rob Waller
Privately.
00;23;10;07 - 00;23;23;11
Dr Rob Waller
And there's a number there's an organization called Living Leadership in the UK who basically offer sort of mentoring effectively for pastors who are younger and struggling from an older pastor, often sort of semi retired, who just go up at a time and a bit of wisdom.
00;23;23;18 - 00;23;24;05
Dr Rob Waller
So we find.
00;23;24;05 - 00;23;38;28
Dr Rob Waller
People are often sort of reaching out privately because, they kind of know it's an important topic for their conversation, but they don't feel able to say, actually, I'm really struggling. I'm taking antidepressants. Whatever it is.
00;23;39;05 - 00;23;41;28
Dr Rob Waller
Now, there's a degree of appropriate.
00;23;41;28 - 00;23;58;18
Dr Rob Waller
Sharing from the pulpit. You know, when you share from the pulpit, as a pastor, you are you are not shown to your your small crowd of five people you are sharing to. It's more like the feeding of 5000, isn't it? You know, you are addressing a sermon to however big your churches, so you're not going to share everything.
00;23;58;21 - 00;24;00;10
Dr Rob Waller
But the idea that.
00;24;00;12 - 00;24;05;16
Dr Rob Waller
You know, there's this dichotomy between absolutely no mental health problems, as far as anyone can tell.
00;24;05;18 - 00;24;09;08
Dr Rob Waller
But actually, I've got fairly serious issues as that sort of.
00;24;09;11 - 00;24;13;00
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of dichotomy there. And, you know, we are finding people reaching out because they.
00;24;13;00 - 00;24;13;19
Dr Rob Waller
Don't feel.
00;24;13;19 - 00;24;17;14
Dr Rob Waller
They can talk to anyone in the church that and feel like even just a couple of the elders.
00;24;17;14 - 00;24;18;06
Dr Rob Waller
Maybe.
00;24;18;16 - 00;24;26;18
Dr Rob Waller
Or they don't feel they can talk to anyone in their close family because it would be seen, as, you know, the first crack and then it all sort of follows.
00;24;26;21 - 00;24;27;09
Dr Rob Waller
Whereas in actual.
00;24;27;09 - 00;24;33;10
Dr Rob Waller
Fact, we know the people who can be open about this, you know.
00;24;33;12 - 00;24;37;10
Dr Rob Waller
Are able to be successful, successful in ministry.
00;24;37;10 - 00;24;39;04
Dr Rob Waller
You know, there's a number of Christians now who.
00;24;39;04 - 00;24;40;13
Dr Rob Waller
Were saying, actually, you know.
00;24;40;15 - 00;24;59;14
Dr Rob Waller
I've struggled with my mental health. I take an antidepressant. You know, Jeff Lucas is the person who this brings to mind for me, who's, you know, pastors a church in America still writes the sort of closing column for Christianity magazine. You know, he's been relatively open about the fact he has recurrent depressive disorder, take sensitive questions, etc..
00;24;59;17 - 00;25;03;13
Dr Rob Waller
And it doesn't affect, if anything, it enriches his ministry.
00;25;04;10 - 00;25;29;05
Dave Quak
Do you also, I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind speaking into as like Christian people, not necessarily leaders, but Christians who love Jesus when it comes to the nature of like mental illness. It just feels so spiritual, like it sometimes just feels like you don't know whether it's God, the enemy, yourself, your biology. Let's you have any thoughts that might help people who are wrestling with that.
00;25;29;07 - 00;25;32;29
Dr Rob Waller
Well, yeah. So I think that's something like I hinted at earlier, you.
00;25;32;29 - 00;25;36;29
Dr Rob Waller
Know, there's definitely sort of overlap areas where a bit of discernment is needed.
00;25;37;02 - 00;25;37;26
Dr Rob Waller
You know, you.
00;25;37;27 - 00;25;43;16
Dr Rob Waller
Said earlier that you, you had had a bipolar illness. And I'm thinking of of two people I know.
00;25;43;21 - 00;25;44;06
Dr Rob Waller
00;25;44;06 - 00;25;51;22
Dr Rob Waller
One of whom is a friend and one of whom is a former patient, both of whom are charismatic Christians, for want of a better description.
00;25;51;22 - 00;25;55;29
Dr Rob Waller
So they believe in spiritual experiences.
00;25;56;01 - 00;26;06;19
Dr Rob Waller
And, I think for both of them, they've gone to, an event and they've been a sort of amazing night of worship, and they have felt so close to God.
00;26;06;21 - 00;26;08;17
Dr Rob Waller
And that was great.
00;26;08;20 - 00;26;15;20
Dr Rob Waller
And I think one of them became a Christian, and one of them is Christian oriented, really deep in their faith. And then a few months later, something similar kind of happened.
00;26;15;23 - 00;26;16;10
Dr Rob Waller
But actually.
00;26;16;10 - 00;26;17;12
Dr Rob Waller
That was the start of a manic.
00;26;17;12 - 00;26;18;09
Dr Rob Waller
Episode.
00;26;18;12 - 00;26;33;07
Dr Rob Waller
And, what happened was, they ended up being admitted to hospital being extremely unwell. And, you know, one of the questions they had is like, what's the difference between that spiritual experience and the start of a manic episode?
00;26;33;10 - 00;26;37;11
Dr Rob Waller
And I think this was probably two.
00;26;37;14 - 00;26;41;29
Dr Rob Waller
Distinctions that a really important. I think one is the sort of duration of it.
00;26;41;29 - 00;26;44;24
Dr Rob Waller
So, you know, we read.
00;26;44;24 - 00;26;55;17
Dr Rob Waller
Among the Church Fathers about people being caught up into ecstasy. And, you know, people have definitely had that experience where, you know, they've been to worship night and they've been slain in the Holy Spirit. And I've woken up a few hours later and I've got a.
00;26;55;17 - 00;26;58;19
Dr Rob Waller
Clue as to what happened. And, you know, their friends tell them.
00;26;58;19 - 00;26;59;13
Dr Rob Waller
They were sort of bouncing.
00;26;59;13 - 00;27;04;09
Dr Rob Waller
Around and, you know, dancing, rolling in the aisles, you know, kind of thing.
00;27;04;11 - 00;27;08;02
Dr Rob Waller
But the next morning, everything was normal again.
00;27;08;05 - 00;27;10;19
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And I think, I think that is.
00;27;10;21 - 00;27;22;13
Dr Rob Waller
Is is something that I think we can say is it's closer to a spiritual experience. And I'm remembering that sort of verse in the New Testament that says the, the, the spirit of prophets is under the.
00;27;22;13 - 00;27;23;29
Dr Rob Waller
Control of prophets.
00;27;23;29 - 00;27;26;23
Dr Rob Waller
And Paul's talking in the Corinthian church about,
00;27;26;26 - 00;27;30;20
Dr Rob Waller
Excessive prophecy, people being sort of getting so caught up in prophecy they're.
00;27;30;20 - 00;27;31;28
Dr Rob Waller
Distracting from the rest of the.
00;27;31;28 - 00;27;37;20
Dr Rob Waller
Work of the church. And he says, get a grip of yourself. You know, it's appropriate or helpful here. Whereas.
00;27;37;20 - 00;27;39;13
Dr Rob Waller
The beginning of the manic episode was.
00;27;39;13 - 00;27;40;25
Dr Rob Waller
Several days.
00;27;41;01 - 00;27;42;21
Dr Rob Waller
Of of holiness, and.
00;27;42;26 - 00;27;43;28
Dr Rob Waller
The sort of definition of.
00;27;43;28 - 00;27;46;27
Dr Rob Waller
A manic episode is something that lasts for five days or longer.
00;27;47;00 - 00;27;49;22
Dr Rob Waller
So it and they weren't in control of it.
00;27;49;22 - 00;28;01;13
Dr Rob Waller
And one of the things you you discover, as I'm sure you know, when you're high. So the first 2 or 3 days are quite cool. And, you know, you think it's superhuman and you're doing all the housework in 45 seconds and, you know, you're really, really productive. But then.
00;28;01;13 - 00;28;04;24
Dr Rob Waller
Come day to come, day three, you really want to sleep.
00;28;04;27 - 00;28;06;16
Dr Rob Waller
And you start getting irritable.
00;28;06;18 - 00;28;08;13
Dr Rob Waller
And you can't. You wish you could.
00;28;08;13 - 00;28;10;06
Dr Rob Waller
Slow down, but you can't.
00;28;10;09 - 00;28;15;17
Dr Rob Waller
And it's that sort of, I am not in control of this anymore. So. So I think it's that sort of control.
00;28;15;17 - 00;28;17;28
Dr Rob Waller
And that sort of,
00;28;18;01 - 00;28;18;17
Dr Rob Waller
00;28;18;17 - 00;28;20;01
Dr Rob Waller
You know, sort of.
00;28;20;04 - 00;28;22;05
Dr Rob Waller
Time duration of it is.
00;28;22;05 - 00;28;40;08
Dr Rob Waller
Is one of the ways to tell those two things apart. And then the, the second kind of thing, I suppose, is, is to see a good psychiatrist who will work with you and look at the history of these ups and downs and say, this looks like bipolar affective disorder. You know, I have seen this many, many, many times before, and this looks like bipolar affective disorder.
00;28;40;14 - 00;28;45;14
Dr Rob Waller
Now, it doesn't need to be a Christian psychiatrist. It just needs to be someone who is good and has seen a lot of bipolar.
00;28;46;24 - 00;28;49;29
Dr Rob Waller
And, and I think, I think also that.
00;28;49;29 - 00;28;50;25
Dr Rob Waller
Person can say.
00;28;51;01 - 00;28;54;18
Dr Rob Waller
This does not look like bipolar. This does not.
00;28;54;18 - 00;28;59;25
Dr Rob Waller
Look like the kind of thing I seem to think every day. And, I think that's also really.
00;28;59;25 - 00;29;02;20
Dr Rob Waller
Helpful because that then gives you the.
00;29;02;20 - 00;29;03;28
Dr Rob Waller
Freedom, if that makes sense.
00;29;03;28 - 00;29;05;18
Dr Rob Waller
To say. Right, okay. Well, that was good news.
00;29;05;18 - 00;29;27;04
Dr Rob Waller
I don't have a significant mental illness. I don't need to take medication. I can now go and explore this part of my spirituality and find out what's what's going on. And, you know, a similar kind of thing might be, schizophrenia. You know, if you hear voices or, that sort of overlap isn't there between is this a sort of spiritual influence or is it a psychosis?
00;29;27;04 - 00;29;30;13
Dr Rob Waller
And, you know, one of my jobs as a psychiatrist to say.
00;29;30;16 - 00;29;31;22
Dr Rob Waller
Yes, this is the.
00;29;31;22 - 00;29;35;14
Dr Rob Waller
Disorder I work with every week. The treatment for this is such and such.
00;29;35;21 - 00;29;37;01
Dr Rob Waller
Or actually, no.
00;29;37;01 - 00;29;49;21
Dr Rob Waller
This is not. And, one of the things I used to do and I was living in, in Yorkshire was, meets up every couple of weeks with the local Catholic exorcist, and that sounds slightly, slightly mad.
00;29;50;09 - 00;29;51;12
Dr Rob Waller
But every Catholic.
00;29;51;12 - 00;29;54;14
Dr Rob Waller
Diocese and actually every Anglican or Episcopalian diocese.
00;29;54;14 - 00;29;55;13
Dr Rob Waller
Has.
00;29;55;16 - 00;30;05;02
Dr Rob Waller
One of their priests who will be nominated as an exorcist. And an exorcist is slightly, sort of, again, slightly crazy language, isn't it? Is it? It sounds like Hollywood films and this sort of thing, but I think.
00;30;05;08 - 00;30;06;22
Dr Rob Waller
Someone who is skilled.
00;30;06;22 - 00;30;08;07
Dr Rob Waller
In deliverance ministry.
00;30;08;10 - 00;30;09;17
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And for a.
00;30;09;17 - 00;30;28;19
Dr Rob Waller
Number of reasons, partly good practice, partly due to a couple of couple of things that went wrong. The recommendation is that the diocese exorcist meets up at least once a term with a local team of mental health professionals. So in our case, it was a social worker and a couple of psychiatrists, and I think a local Christian counselor.
00;30;28;26 - 00;30;29;20
Dr Rob Waller
What we did was we basically.
00;30;29;20 - 00;30;43;09
Dr Rob Waller
Sat down with Father John and discussed some of the more sort of borderline cases, and he had a lot of experience. We had a lot of experience. We prayed into it. And effectively what we tried to discern was.
00;30;43;11 - 00;30;45;11
Dr Rob Waller
Yep, that's one for you. Carry on.
00;30;45;13 - 00;30;53;15
Dr Rob Waller
Nope. That sounds like he needs to come and see us. Please make sure his GP refers him. Or I think this could be a both and kind of thing. And it's that.
00;30;53;15 - 00;30;56;14
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of ability to say, yes, this is.
00;30;56;14 - 00;31;01;28
Dr Rob Waller
Bipolar, but also know this is not bipolar, that I think one of the.
00;31;02;01 - 00;31;02;18
Dr Rob Waller
Skills.
00;31;02;18 - 00;31;08;04
Dr Rob Waller
That you can get from seeing a medical professional, in the same way that I can go and see an engineer and he will say, yes.
00;31;08;04 - 00;31;08;21
Dr Rob Waller
This chair.
00;31;08;21 - 00;31;20;17
Dr Rob Waller
Will take the weight of an adult human being. This is no it won't. It's one of those things you made out of, pasta and marshmallows and it's and it's not going to if you sit on it, you know, it looks like a chair, but the engineering isn't there.
00;31;20;17 - 00;31;22;06
Dr Rob Waller
And I think, you know.
00;31;22;09 - 00;31;25;02
Dr Rob Waller
Psychiatry is not quite such an exact sciences engineering.
00;31;25;03 - 00;31;27;04
Dr Rob Waller
But particularly.
00;31;27;04 - 00;31;31;26
Dr Rob Waller
For illnesses like bipolar and schizophrenia, they've got a pretty well-defined set of symptoms.
00;31;31;28 - 00;31;34;15
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, they're actually very consistent.
00;31;34;15 - 00;31;48;07
Dr Rob Waller
In diagnostic rates between different countries. You know, we know what these things are. We we know what works. Depression slightly different story but certainly for sort of major psychotic illnesses likewise dementia that kind of thing. You know we know what these things are.
00;31;48;09 - 00;31;51;11
Dr Rob Waller
We have tests for them, etc., etc..
00;31;51;18 - 00;32;10;28
Dave Quak
I would have loved to sit on that meeting with Father John. I was reading some stuff from Kenneth McCall. Is he legitimate? I don't know that name, but he was a psychiatrist saying that 4% of the patients he saw needed some form of deliverance or exorcism. So he was a guy and he died in about 2010, I think.
00;32;10;28 - 00;32;12;04
Dave Quak
Do you know that name?
00;32;12;07 - 00;32;18;26
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. It's not it's not a name I know personally, I think I think it's always it slightly depends on the.
00;32;18;26 - 00;32;25;07
Dr Rob Waller
Setting that you're practicing in it. And I work for the National service. So like the health board in any of terms.
00;32;25;07 - 00;32;27;05
Dr Rob Waller
So the vast majority.
00;32;27;05 - 00;32;34;17
Dr Rob Waller
Of people I see are not Christians. So my, my practice always for any new patient I see is to ask them about their faith and spirituality.
00;32;34;17 - 00;32;36;03
Dr Rob Waller
At some point in the same.
00;32;36;03 - 00;32;50;05
Dr Rob Waller
Way that I'll say to them, you know, do you have any problem with drugs or alcohol? You know, I'll always ask that question to everybody. Likewise. I'll always ask, do you have a faith or spirituality that helps you at a time like this?
00;32;50;08 - 00;32;53;05
Dr Rob Waller
And I'm kind of interested. So I sort of put it.
00;32;53;08 - 00;33;02;08
Dr Rob Waller
Put it in every consultation. And that's something that I think every psychologist should do, whether they have a or not. Also, because I do quite a lot of stuff online, some of my patients Google me and find out beforehand.
00;33;02;08 - 00;33;15;24
Dr Rob Waller
So so often. Yeah, spirituality is on the table. But I think part of my job is, I suppose, is to sort of say, okay, I can help you with this, but I can't help you with this.
00;33;15;24 - 00;33;20;25
Dr Rob Waller
So we can come up with a treatment plan, which might be medication or psychology or whatever it is.
00;33;20;25 - 00;33;22;07
Dr Rob Waller
But I'll say this. There's this.
00;33;22;07 - 00;33;23;22
Dr Rob Waller
Part of your life that.
00;33;23;24 - 00;33;28;10
Dr Rob Waller
With my NHS that on, I don't know anything about. And it could.
00;33;28;10 - 00;33;36;22
Dr Rob Waller
Be something very spiritual, like loneliness, let's say. I mean loneliness, of course, it's usually spiritual, but that's another story.
00;33;36;22 - 00;33;38;00
Dr Rob Waller
But my point is it it's.
00;33;38;00 - 00;33;40;04
Dr Rob Waller
Understandable loneliness, isn't it? And.
00;33;40;07 - 00;33;41;16
Dr Rob Waller
You know, one of.
00;33;41;16 - 00;33;42;17
Dr Rob Waller
The things I may say is like.
00;33;42;17 - 00;33;43;15
Dr Rob Waller
You know, where do.
00;33;43;15 - 00;33;45;13
Dr Rob Waller
People go in the local community to.
00;33;45;13 - 00;33;55;13
Dr Rob Waller
Find community? They could go to a book group, a library, they could go to the local church, they could go to a gym. You know, we kind of check.
00;33;55;13 - 00;33;57;27
Dr Rob Waller
Some of these things out there. And of course, you know, the church.
00;33;57;27 - 00;34;01;02
Dr Rob Waller
Is one of the places. And I think sometimes we do see.
00;34;01;02 - 00;34;02;25
Dr Rob Waller
People with, you know, existential.
00;34;03;00 - 00;34;08;15
Dr Rob Waller
Crises. So, you know, who in our society deals with existential crisis.
00;34;08;15 - 00;34;11;20
Dr Rob Waller
And normally what they say is, well, you know, I have to be I have to be the local.
00;34;11;20 - 00;34;12;22
Dr Rob Waller
Padre. I say, well.
00;34;12;25 - 00;34;14;05
Dr Rob Waller
You know, maybe you better go and take those.
00;34;14;05 - 00;34;20;02
Dr Rob Waller
Things to them. So what I, what I sort of challenges, I try and sort of say, I think this is something which.
00;34;20;05 - 00;34;21;25
Dr Rob Waller
Modern medicine is not good at.
00;34;21;28 - 00;34;22;25
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And also it.
00;34;22;25 - 00;34;38;24
Dr Rob Waller
Seems to be in the sort of the main that perhaps you need to go and talk to a faith leader about this. Now with, with my NHS found, I wouldn't necessarily do more than that unless the person had explicitly said, I'm a Christian. I know you're a Christian. Where can you tell me more?
00;34;39;00 - 00;34;40;17
Dr Rob Waller
And even then I have to be slightly.
00;34;40;17 - 00;34;51;26
Dr Rob Waller
Careful because the appointments are only so long and I need to spend the vast majority of the appointment doing NHS work. You know, we can get caught up in red herrings and have all kinds of interesting conversations about things.
00;34;51;29 - 00;34;57;03
Dr Rob Waller
But, you know, it's perfectly allowed. General Medical Council, to be clear, the doctors.
00;34;57;03 - 00;34;59;12
Dr Rob Waller
Have their own personal beliefs, and.
00;34;59;14 - 00;34;59;20
Dr Rob Waller
It.
00;34;59;20 - 00;35;14;27
Dr Rob Waller
Is by no means banned to talk about these kinds of things in the consultation, but it has to be in the appropriate way. Understanding of the power boundaries and the power dynamics that are happening there and and led led by the person. So I think in often my role is just.
00;35;14;27 - 00;35;15;22
Dr Rob Waller
To say.
00;35;15;24 - 00;35;20;10
Dr Rob Waller
This is not a mental health condition. It seems more of a saying that it lies.
00;35;20;10 - 00;35;21;06
Dr Rob Waller
More.
00;35;21;08 - 00;35;25;12
Dr Rob Waller
In this kind of domain. You need to go away and be looking, looking there. Really.
00;35;28;06 - 00;35;30;10
Dr Rob Waller
I have probably.
00;35;30;10 - 00;35;30;23
Dr Rob Waller
Only met.
00;35;30;23 - 00;35;31;11
Dr Rob Waller
Once or.
00;35;31;11 - 00;35;51;28
Dr Rob Waller
Twice in my life. Someone who I thought was actually possessed. And one of those times was when I was on call and I was seeing someone in the middle of the night, and, you know, again, I was very clear that this this wasn't schizophrenia. But that was sufficiently disturbed that the person ended up coming into hospital.
00;35;51;28 - 00;36;03;27
Dr Rob Waller
So I actually had a very easy get out clause in that situation, which is the chaplain came to see in the next day. Yeah, we have a hospital chaplain and that's, that's that kind of explicit role to, to to look into those kinds of things.
00;36;03;27 - 00;36;08;05
Dr Rob Waller
So, 4% don't know. The problem is, is a bit of a.
00;36;08;05 - 00;36;11;26
Dr Rob Waller
Spectrum, isn't there from sort of position to influence, to.
00;36;11;29 - 00;36;12;17
Dr Rob Waller
Hold.
00;36;12;17 - 00;36;25;14
Dr Rob Waller
Generational patterns, you know, that we need to, to operate through. So there's a whole whole spectrum. You know, I'd probably say that, you know, a reasonable percentage of the population have got general generational patterns or generational curses that that.
00;36;25;17 - 00;36;26;14
Dr Rob Waller
They would be helped.
00;36;26;14 - 00;36;29;18
Dr Rob Waller
By, by praying through those things.
00;36;29;21 - 00;36;32;05
Dr Rob Waller
Possession harder to say.
00;36;32;07 - 00;36;52;09
Dave Quak
Yeah, it is hard to say. And I like your, you know, even the definitions hard, you know, whether it's possession, affliction or, or whatever, but it's encouraging, you know, that a man of God like yourself, with the qualifications you have, also thinks there is space for the spiritual freedom as well, like the deliverance side of ministry.
00;36;52;09 - 00;37;10;05
Dave Quak
I know, I mean, I didn't realize you would be able to be as open about it because I know you're a very prominent psychiatrist over there. It's almost like a referral process. Right? Like if I referred a friend to you that I thought needed some mental help, you would refer a friend to that chaplain who needed some spiritual help.
00;37;10;07 - 00;37;12;29
Dave Quak
It's like holistic care. Really taking care of the whole person.
00;37;12;29 - 00;37;14;27
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that.
00;37;14;27 - 00;37;31;12
Dr Rob Waller
Pathway is there. So if someone's an inpatient, let's say many hospitals will have access to a chaplain. And yeah, it's easier perhaps to separate those things out. You know, sometimes I think in the outpatient clinic it has to be less slightly more hanging or less perhaps. Look, I don't think this is a medical or a psychiatric thing. To be honest.
00;37;31;12 - 00;37;51;01
Dr Rob Waller
I don't even really think it's a psychological thing. I think it's more due to these other, other parts of society. And, you know, I look after, sort of northeast Edinburgh where there's, you know, thousand people, myself and three colleagues and I think I've, I've long since come to the conclusion that I am not responsible for the madness of north east Edinburgh.
00;37;51;03 - 00;37;53;08
Dr Rob Waller
You know, there's there's many other or the.
00;37;53;08 - 00;38;06;17
Dr Rob Waller
Happiness of northeast Edinburgh. You know, my particular role is, is to sort of work in that thing. And there's many other things, where on the sea. So a bunch of people find that happiness by doing strange things like cold water swimming, which you understand, living in Brisbane, but.
00;38;06;19 - 00;38;06;29
Dr Rob Waller
The North.
00;38;06;29 - 00;38;13;12
Dr Rob Waller
Sea is quite cold and people go swimming in it every day of the year and they swear it's good for this horrible cortex or something. It's, you.
00;38;13;12 - 00;38;14;24
Dr Rob Waller
Know, so there's there's other.
00;38;14;24 - 00;38;21;19
Dr Rob Waller
Approaches out there. And often my role is just to say it's not my approach. Think about some of these other things.
00;38;21;19 - 00;38;24;04
Dr Rob Waller
And you know, some.
00;38;24;04 - 00;38;33;15
Dr Rob Waller
Of that will be in this sort of existential, spiritual kind of right, where the person knows that themselves. They know this is not going to get fixed by cold water, assuming there's something else going on here.
00;38;33;28 - 00;38;35;21
Dr Rob Waller
And I think the other really key thing, when.
00;38;35;21 - 00;38;42;11
Dr Rob Waller
You're working with more, the sort of deliverance kind of territory is, is to learn about how Jesus did it.
00;38;42;13 - 00;38;43;11
Dr Rob Waller
So that the classic.
00;38;43;11 - 00;38;51;07
Dr Rob Waller
Kind of story people often go to is, you know, Jesus. And it's even got a horrible name in the Bible. You know, Jesus in the Kerosene demoniac.
00;38;51;10 - 00;38;58;05
Dr Rob Waller
Oh, yeah. It's it's it's it's not a it's not a great title for a power it is or a story, but it's the basic.
00;38;58;05 - 00;39;09;06
Dr Rob Waller
Idea is that this guy who's this guy who's sort of an outcast and, you know, he seems to be psychotic or self-harming, and he's been kicked around the village and all this kind of stuff. And, Jesus effectively goes and does deliverance ministry.
00;39;09;11 - 00;39;10;14
Dr Rob Waller
And we always sort of focus.
00;39;10;14 - 00;39;22;23
Dr Rob Waller
On that bit. And we say, well, this is one of three power miracles that sort of kickstarted Jesus's ministry in the Gospels, and they come together in the Gospels and so on. But if you sort of stand back a little bit and you think, right.
00;39;22;26 - 00;39;23;10
Dr Rob Waller
Let's look at.
00;39;23;10 - 00;39;25;10
Dr Rob Waller
How Jesus interacted with this guy.
00;39;25;12 - 00;39;26;20
Dr Rob Waller
First of all, he deliberately.
00;39;26;20 - 00;39;30;14
Dr Rob Waller
Landed at his feet at the beach. He didn't go to the harbor with the crowd, but he came to this guy.
00;39;30;27 - 00;39;32;15
Dr Rob Waller
He met the guy on the beach.
00;39;32;18 - 00;39;35;14
Dr Rob Waller
He spoke to him like a normal human being.
00;39;35;17 - 00;39;41;29
Dr Rob Waller
He addressed him by name. He. He blessed him. He gave him a role.
00;39;42;04 - 00;39;44;02
Dr Rob Waller
And said, I want you to be my witness in these.
00;39;44;02 - 00;39;45;22
Dr Rob Waller
Towns. So the next time.
00;39;45;22 - 00;39;47;24
Dr Rob Waller
Jesus came back to the area, he had to feed four.
00;39;47;24 - 00;39;48;04
Dr Rob Waller
Thousand.
00;39;48;04 - 00;39;49;13
Dr Rob Waller
People because this guy was such a good.
00;39;49;13 - 00;39;50;25
Dr Rob Waller
Evangelist in.
00;39;50;27 - 00;39;51;03
Dr Rob Waller
This.
00;39;51;03 - 00;39;53;21
Dr Rob Waller
Towns, you know, he he saw him.
00;39;53;23 - 00;39;55;24
Dr Rob Waller
If that makes sense, as a human. And I think, yeah.
00;39;55;29 - 00;39;58;08
Dr Rob Waller
You know, we in the West, we've.
00;39;58;08 - 00;40;04;00
Dr Rob Waller
Kind of, made deliverance ministry into this sort of scary thing.
00;40;04;03 - 00;40;05;22
Dr Rob Waller
Whereas actually Jesus did it in.
00;40;05;22 - 00;40;06;21
Dr Rob Waller
The course of his normal.
00;40;06;21 - 00;40;09;24
Dr Rob Waller
Ministry. He always saw the person. And actually, if you.
00;40;09;24 - 00;40;14;23
Dr Rob Waller
Go to Africa and other countries, perhaps where deliverance ministry is more mainstream.
00;40;14;26 - 00;40;17;23
Dr Rob Waller
It's done in a very matter of fact kind of what? Well, we'll do some.
00;40;17;23 - 00;40;20;01
Dr Rob Waller
Deliverance ministry and then we'll have dinner.
00;40;20;04 - 00;40;28;06
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And whereas whereas in this country it can be quite rightly saying, you know, people are reluctant to say that.
00;40;28;06 - 00;40;31;12
Dr Rob Waller
They might have had some evil influence. You know, we don't.
00;40;31;12 - 00;40;33;08
Dr Rob Waller
Talk about it or the whole.
00;40;33;08 - 00;40;35;14
Dr Rob Waller
Experience is very embarrassing.
00;40;35;14 - 00;40;37;26
Dr Rob Waller
With some great Shabbat avenues.
00;40;37;29 - 00;40;40;12
Dr Rob Waller
And, you know, this kind of stuff, you know, and, and in.
00;40;40;12 - 00;40;42;00
Dr Rob Waller
My head, the power here.
00;40;42;00 - 00;40;44;09
Dr Rob Waller
Is not how much Shabbat have to do that, which it does.
00;40;44;11 - 00;40;48;16
Dr Rob Waller
It's it's the name of Jesus. Yeah. And if you look at Jesus's.
00;40;48;16 - 00;40;49;27
Dr Rob Waller
Deliverance ministry, it was.
00;40;49;27 - 00;40;50;17
Dr Rob Waller
Holistic.
00;40;50;17 - 00;40;51;16
Dr Rob Waller
Integrative.
00;40;51;19 - 00;40;53;20
Dr Rob Waller
Empowering and relatively.
00;40;53;20 - 00;40;58;28
Dr Rob Waller
Unexciting. So I think if we're going to do deliverance ministry, we need to do that. We need to say if anyone wants.
00;40;58;28 - 00;41;02;27
Dr Rob Waller
Prayer, come forward. Please pray. If you send something.
00;41;03;00 - 00;41;04;16
Dr Rob Waller
Pray for it together in the name Jesus. If you.
00;41;04;16 - 00;41;05;23
Dr Rob Waller
Don't send some.
00;41;05;25 - 00;41;07;26
Dr Rob Waller
Prayer blessing, move on. You know, I think.
00;41;08;02 - 00;41;09;08
Dr Rob Waller
A particularly.
00;41;09;08 - 00;41;12;29
Dr Rob Waller
Deliverance around sort of mental illness and that's yeah.
00;41;13;02 - 00;41;13;13
Dr Rob Waller
A lot of.
00;41;13;13 - 00;41;17;09
Dr Rob Waller
People who've got a mental health diagnosis have been through a number of very embarrassing.
00;41;17;11 - 00;41;18;10
Dr Rob Waller
Situations.
00;41;18;14 - 00;41;18;24
Dr Rob Waller
You know.
00;41;18;24 - 00;41;19;16
Dr Rob Waller
Where.
00;41;19;19 - 00;41;28;14
Dr Rob Waller
They've been out of control, admitted to hospital against their wishes. You know, the last thing they need is to have a disempowering, embarrassing experience in their church as well.
00;41;28;14 - 00;41;31;01
Dr Rob Waller
So we've got to we've got a I think, you know.
00;41;31;03 - 00;41;33;04
Dr Rob Waller
The power is in the name of Jesus.
00;41;33;07 - 00;41;47;08
Dave Quak
Yeah. Amen. Rob, earlier you mentioned like, the generational curse. I've just never been able to understand that how it works. Like I see it and the effects of it, but I don't quite understand it. Could you unpack that for us?
00;41;47;10 - 00;41;51;19
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the Bible talks about.
00;41;53;10 - 00;41;57;28
Dr Rob Waller
Things being evident to the, third, fourth, fifth generation, you know, the I shall.
00;41;58;00 - 00;42;02;19
Dr Rob Waller
I shall visit this upon the next four generations or whatever it is. And some of that's a bit.
00;42;02;19 - 00;42;07;07
Dr Rob Waller
Old Testament in its language. And I think we need to understand a bit of the culture of the day.
00;42;07;09 - 00;42;07;24
Dr Rob Waller
But what you.
00;42;07;24 - 00;42;16;24
Dr Rob Waller
Definitely see is, is familial patterns. So if you take for example, the book of Genesis, you've got the, God's chosen family, the family of Abraham.
00;42;16;26 - 00;42;18;20
Dr Rob Waller
Through whom he.
00;42;18;20 - 00;42;20;20
Dr Rob Waller
Is going to birth his Messiah.
00;42;21;01 - 00;42;22;04
Dr Rob Waller
And we see that set up.
00;42;22;04 - 00;42;29;14
Dr Rob Waller
Very clearly in the depression narrative. We see this type of Christ coming through in the form of Joseph, who is who is going to save his people.
00;42;29;16 - 00;42;32;07
Dr Rob Waller
And what we see is we see time after.
00;42;32;07 - 00;42;36;05
Dr Rob Waller
Time after time, after generation after generation of generation, people making the.
00;42;36;05 - 00;42;40;05
Dr Rob Waller
Same old mistakes. I mean, how often do they go into a foreign.
00;42;40;05 - 00;42;40;25
Dr Rob Waller
Land and.
00;42;40;25 - 00;42;47;10
Dr Rob Waller
John pass off their wife to their wife as their sister? Oh my word, you did that five chapters ago. It didn't.
00;42;47;10 - 00;42;47;16
Dr Rob Waller
Work.
00;42;47;16 - 00;42;51;16
Dr Rob Waller
Then why on earth are you thinking it works now and you know, it's not.
00;42;51;16 - 00;42;55;23
Dr Rob Waller
Explicitly labeled as a generational curse, but it's most definitely a generational.
00;42;55;23 - 00;43;01;22
Dr Rob Waller
Pattern. Yes. And I think we've got these two things in tension. We've got, first of all, the sovereignty of.
00;43;01;22 - 00;43;03;29
Dr Rob Waller
God that for some reason.
00;43;04;02 - 00;43;06;22
Dr Rob Waller
Unknown to us, he has decided to bless.
00;43;06;22 - 00;43;09;26
Dr Rob Waller
Abraham's family and that chosen lineage.
00;43;09;29 - 00;43;16;18
Dr Rob Waller
At the expense of other people. And, you know, he he chose Abraham. Now, did that mean that he didn't.
00;43;16;18 - 00;43;17;19
Dr Rob Waller
Choose the others?
00;43;17;22 - 00;43;21;23
Dr Rob Waller
The wrong question? The all we know is that he chose Abraham.
00;43;21;29 - 00;43;25;23
Dr Rob Waller
We can't make up theology about what he didn't choose because the Bible talks about that.
00;43;25;25 - 00;43;32;00
Dr Rob Waller
But what we also know is that those people who decided who who ended up.
00;43;32;02 - 00;43;33;02
Dr Rob Waller
Being not chosen.
00;43;33;03 - 00;43;35;21
Dr Rob Waller
You know, usually the older brother in the story.
00;43;35;21 - 00;43;37;23
Dr Rob Waller
It's usually the younger brother who comes through, isn't.
00;43;37;23 - 00;43;42;01
Dr Rob Waller
It? The older brother actually shot himself very satisfactory.
00;43;42;01 - 00;43;42;15
Dr Rob Waller
In the foot.
00;43;42;15 - 00;43;48;11
Dr Rob Waller
On a number of occasions. So whether or not, you know, God chose Abraham, they.
00;43;48;13 - 00;43;50;13
Dr Rob Waller
Selected themselves.
00;43;50;15 - 00;43;57;02
Dr Rob Waller
In some way. And we've kind of got this, this tension here. And I think that's where.
00;43;57;05 - 00;44;02;17
Dr Rob Waller
These generational things come in. We operate out of things that.
00;44;02;20 - 00;44;04;27
Dr Rob Waller
We are rewarded for growing.
00;44;04;27 - 00;44;12;17
Dr Rob Waller
Up by parents who are dysfunctional in some way. So if you are only rewarded for getting good exam results.
00;44;12;20 - 00;44;13;15
Dr Rob Waller
Let's say.
00;44;13;18 - 00;44;15;11
Dr Rob Waller
Rather than just for your own worth.
00;44;15;13 - 00;44;17;07
Dr Rob Waller
That will lead to a pattern.
00;44;17;07 - 00;44;29;11
Dr Rob Waller
And that often perhaps comes from their upbringing, your parents upbringing where they own you got reward for those things. They don't know how to show love or affection. Then you know how to reward a great. So you see these things sort of running through.
00;44;29;13 - 00;44;31;23
Dr Rob Waller
And or if.
00;44;31;23 - 00;44;33;27
Dr Rob Waller
You know, a parent is emotionally.
00;44;33;27 - 00;44;34;19
Dr Rob Waller
Immature.
00;44;34;19 - 00;44;36;00
Dr Rob Waller
For example, and.
00;44;36;02 - 00;44;37;03
Dr Rob Waller
You know, behaves.
00;44;37;03 - 00;44;40;07
Dr Rob Waller
Like a petulant child when in actual fact they should be the adult in the.
00;44;40;07 - 00;44;53;02
Dr Rob Waller
Relationship. It's, it's, you know, it's that if we're not careful, we will pass on to our children. And I think this is why. Yeah, I think I think we're becoming more aware of this.
00;44;53;02 - 00;44;53;13
Dr Rob Waller
You know.
00;44;53;13 - 00;44;55;00
Dr Rob Waller
Culture, the movement. We see that.
00;44;55;00 - 00;44;56;12
Dr Rob Waller
These things our parents.
00;44;56;18 - 00;44;57;18
Dr Rob Waller
Did.
00;44;57;20 - 00;44;59;20
Dr Rob Waller
That we want to say this doesn't go any further in my.
00;44;59;20 - 00;45;04;08
Dr Rob Waller
Family. Yeah. And we have to be slightly careful with,
00;45;04;10 - 00;45;15;26
Dr Rob Waller
Judging people by the standards of 2024. Whereas in actual fact, back in 1960, what they were doing was relatively mainstream. You know, attitudes to women in the workplace, for example.
00;45;15;26 - 00;45;20;00
Dr Rob Waller
Is something which has shifted. Yeah. But even if you.
00;45;20;00 - 00;45;21;09
Dr Rob Waller
Go back, you know, 50.
00;45;21;09 - 00;45;27;23
Dr Rob Waller
Years, it was still either done well or done badly, you know, even.
00;45;27;23 - 00;45;32;01
Dr Rob Waller
Even in firms where there was never going to be a woman on the board.
00;45;32;04 - 00;45;33;19
Dr Rob Waller
A good firm would still.
00;45;33;19 - 00;45;34;24
Dr Rob Waller
Find a way to give.
00;45;34;24 - 00;45;35;18
Dr Rob Waller
Voice to.
00;45;35;19 - 00;45;39;25
Dr Rob Waller
To that side of. And though those characteristics in that side of the organization.
00;45;39;25 - 00;45;43;20
Dr Rob Waller
So so I think we kind of need to to look at our parents, look at our parents.
00;45;43;20 - 00;45;44;26
Dr Rob Waller
Upbringing and.
00;45;44;28 - 00;45;47;02
Dr Rob Waller
Graciously.
00;45;47;04 - 00;46;01;12
Dr Rob Waller
Try to identify these are the things that stuck with me. And, I'm going to do things very, very differently. I'm not going to travel, for work. I'm going to be around the family. I'm not going.
00;46;01;12 - 00;46;07;07
Dr Rob Waller
To use smacking, for example. Yeah. Because of.
00;46;07;09 - 00;46;19;21
Dr Rob Waller
You know, physical chastisement. Not necessarily right or wrong. I don't want to get into that debate, but for some people, it's definitely no. I think it depends on your upbringing and that kind of stuff. So there may be things you might want to sort of.
00;46;19;23 - 00;46;20;03
Dr Rob Waller
Draw.
00;46;20;03 - 00;46;23;26
Dr Rob Waller
A line in the sand and say, this doesn't go any further. Now, is that a, a.
00;46;23;26 - 00;46;28;26
Dr Rob Waller
Spiritual thing that you need to pray through, or is it a decision you.
00;46;28;26 - 00;46;33;26
Dr Rob Waller
Make informed by psychology? I again, I think it can be both and sometimes.
00;46;33;29 - 00;46;40;28
Dr Rob Waller
Sometimes it's possible just to realize that and and make a decision. What I would say is it's it's very.
00;46;40;28 - 00;46;55;18
Dr Rob Waller
Difficult to make that decision out of willpower. You know, my, my will pass normally used up by 10:30. So, you know, we need we perhaps need to make that decision, perhaps with a bit of support from other trusted friends or perhaps a counselor. And sometimes we might need to.
00;46;55;18 - 00;46;57;16
Dr Rob Waller
Pray through.
00;46;59;25 - 00;47;02;09
Dr Rob Waller
Pray off of things, if that makes sense.
00;47;02;09 - 00;47;07;12
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. Is that prayer? Is that counseling? I'm not quite sure. Yeah. I.
00;47;07;12 - 00;47;25;11
Dr Rob Waller
Think sometimes there's people who are who are more skilled in discerning that, you know, working with someone who is a good who's good at intercessory prayer, who can, who can discern those kind of things is can be really helpful. And as long as that person says no sometimes because I think sometimes you go and see people who are keen on, you know, deliverance, prayer.
00;47;25;16 - 00;47;29;17
Dr Rob Waller
And it's a bit like the old hammer in the nail thing, you know? Yeah, everything can be fixed.
00;47;29;17 - 00;47;30;15
Dr Rob Waller
Everything can be fixed.
00;47;30;15 - 00;47;31;06
Dr Rob Waller
By praying for your.
00;47;31;06 - 00;47;32;29
Dr Rob Waller
Childhood. And if they say.
00;47;32;29 - 00;47;36;18
Dr Rob Waller
Everything can be fixed by praying for your childhood, they're almost certainly wrong.
00;47;36;21 - 00;47;39;12
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. But some things with with.
00;47;39;12 - 00;47;49;23
Dr Rob Waller
Discernment to prayer, some things for counseling, some things for just making a decision and ordering your life in a way that that says it doesn't go any further.
00;47;50;14 - 00;48;07;00
Dave Quak
I mean, I've got a vested interest in this because with bipolar the last thing I want is my children to, I don't know, inherit that. Is it true that with bipolar they don't necessarily carry the gene. But because I have one of my parents likely has. It is that how it works? Right.
00;48;07;02 - 00;48;07;29
Dr Rob Waller
It's not a.
00;48;07;29 - 00;48;24;19
Dr Rob Waller
Single gene condition. Okay. So it's not like an eye color where you either have blue eyes and brown eyes and you can draw. And there's family trees. In high school biology, and you can kind of trace the gene, you know, with heterozygous and homozygous alleles and all these kind of biology terms you might remember from high school biology.
00;48;24;21 - 00;48;25;28
Dr Rob Waller
And, but there is a.
00;48;25;28 - 00;48;36;28
Dr Rob Waller
Apologetic condition, a bit like diabetes, like schizophrenia. You know, a lot of these things, in fact, bipolar, schizophrenia, you know, that this is an idea of a sort of a unitary psychosis where all these things kind of fit together,
00;48;37;01 - 00;48;38;09
Dr Rob Waller
This sort of genetic.
00;48;38;09 - 00;48;40;27
Dr Rob Waller
Weighting actually is only about 10%. So.
00;48;41;05 - 00;48;41;22
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, there's.
00;48;41;22 - 00;48;42;03
Dr Rob Waller
Only.
00;48;42;03 - 00;48;46;03
Dr Rob Waller
There is the genetics is only 10%. Yeah. So that means there's a.
00;48;46;03 - 00;48;49;11
Dr Rob Waller
90% chance that nothing will happen. And of that ten.
00;48;49;11 - 00;48;51;10
Dr Rob Waller
Percent, it's about.
00;48;51;10 - 00;49;02;03
Dr Rob Waller
Exactly in the same way that, you know, supposing one of your parents had either leukemia, let's say. Yeah, covered from leukemia. I don't know anything about the genetics of leukemia, but my.
00;49;02;03 - 00;49;02;21
Dr Rob Waller
Guess is.
00;49;02;21 - 00;49;03;27
Dr Rob Waller
That that.
00;49;03;29 - 00;49;05;02
Dr Rob Waller
Places,
00;49;05;04 - 00;49;12;27
Dr Rob Waller
Increased genetic risk on the children. So it's about knowing that your parents had that condition rather than keeping a secret.
00;49;12;29 - 00;49;15;07
Dr Rob Waller
Knowing a little bit about, perhaps, how it presents.
00;49;15;07 - 00;49;19;13
Dr Rob Waller
So if your parents had leukemia and you start feeling poorly.
00;49;19;15 - 00;49;19;28
Dr Rob Waller
You know.
00;49;19;29 - 00;49;20;17
Dr Rob Waller
One of the things.
00;49;20;17 - 00;49;22;16
Dr Rob Waller
You have to do is go see a doctor and check.
00;49;22;18 - 00;49;25;18
Dr Rob Waller
This is not the beginning of leukemia. So I think a lot of it is just about.
00;49;25;25 - 00;49;26;20
Dr Rob Waller
So yeah, this.
00;49;26;20 - 00;49;31;20
Dr Rob Waller
Thing runs in my family, but actually it's a 10% runs in my family.
00;49;31;20 - 00;49;35;01
Dr Rob Waller
And there are treatments available.
00;49;35;01 - 00;49;38;23
Dr Rob Waller
And this is something that, I need to be.
00;49;38;23 - 00;49;39;06
Dr Rob Waller
Aware.
00;49;39;06 - 00;49;39;14
Dr Rob Waller
Of.
00;49;39;14 - 00;49;42;05
Dr Rob Waller
And if it comes, I want to catch it early.
00;49;42;07 - 00;49;56;16
Dr Rob Waller
And I need to make sure that I've spoken to, you know, 2 or 3 friends so they know that as well. And perhaps you've written a sort of advance statement of something. I don't know whether you have sort of advanced statements in Australia, but basically it's something which has a.
00;49;56;23 - 00;49;58;22
Dr Rob Waller
A degree of legal weight.
00;49;58;25 - 00;50;01;08
Dr Rob Waller
Should you need emergency emergency.
00;50;01;08 - 00;50;03;22
Dave Quak
Treatment. Okay. Yeah. I'm not sure if that exists, but.
00;50;03;22 - 00;50;05;09
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, it's it's partly a letter.
00;50;05;09 - 00;50;08;07
Dr Rob Waller
To the health professionals treating it. It's partly a letter to yourself to say, right.
00;50;08;08 - 00;50;12;05
Dr Rob Waller
You you wrote this when you were saying read it. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
00;50;12;07 - 00;50;17;17
Dave Quak
I'll get us a better write it now quickly while you're on line. Robbie. Stay there.
00;50;17;17 - 00;50;18;00
Dr Rob Waller
Well, yeah.
00;50;18;01 - 00;50;37;02
Dave Quak
Yeah, yeah. I want us to circle back. I'm really glad your organization's pivoting into even speaking into leadership. But on a wider scale, within churches like our. Do our movements in a bit of trouble when it comes to leaders? Because we've got a lot of people burning out, falling out of ministry, and the attrition rate's really high.
00;50;37;04 - 00;50;58;04
Dave Quak
The entry into into ministry rate's really low. And the retirement rate in the next 15 years is going to half our existing pastors. And that's not including any attrition. So 15 years half ago going plus whoever falls out of ministry, one of your articles demon disorder or none of the above, do you remember that one in amongst them all?
00;50;58;07 - 00;51;01;27
Dr Rob Waller
I vaguely remember the title. You have to help me out on the content.
00;51;01;28 - 00;51;24;20
Dave Quak
I liked it because it just talks about the attitudes of the congregation when it comes to approaches, evangelical Christians with mental distress. And one thing I thought you did well in that article was to sort of point out that, a couple of things, but 31% of the respondents reported experiencing teaching, which exclusively spiritualize their mental distress.
00;51;24;20 - 00;51;53;04
Dave Quak
So like a third of people were taught all mental distress is only spiritual, but 73% endorsed, like hitting it from every angle, which I also thought was encouraging. And then 94% were like, okay, let's go to the secular angle and spiritual. And so sort of like it seems to me that that's that indicates people are more open to it being spiritual, as an entry point and then getting involved in medical intervention.
00;51;53;04 - 00;51;54;24
Dave Quak
Secondly.
00;51;54;26 - 00;51;58;12
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And I think it, it, I mean, each church tradition.
00;51;58;12 - 00;52;07;02
Dr Rob Waller
Has got its things. So, you know, for example, a lot of evangelical traditions grew up.
00;52;07;04 - 00;52;08;21
Dr Rob Waller
After World War two.
00;52;09;17 - 00;52;12;16
Dr Rob Waller
You know, and I guess, you know, two of the sort.
00;52;12;16 - 00;52;13;02
Dr Rob Waller
Of classic.
00;52;13;02 - 00;52;17;16
Dr Rob Waller
People in this are, you know, John stopped in the UK and John John.
00;52;17;16 - 00;52;19;06
Dr Rob Waller
Chapman in Sydney, Chapman.
00;52;19;08 - 00;52;22;02
Dr Rob Waller
And that, you know, of of an age and I've, I've met.
00;52;22;02 - 00;52;23;02
Dr Rob Waller
Both of them.
00;52;23;04 - 00;52;25;08
Dr Rob Waller
And they're lovely and they're absolutely wonderful.
00;52;25;08 - 00;52;31;20
Dr Rob Waller
People. But then huge focus was on.
00;52;31;20 - 00;52;33;04
Dr Rob Waller
Bible teaching in the.
00;52;33;04 - 00;52;34;15
Dr Rob Waller
Pulpit.
00;52;34;18 - 00;52;36;06
Dr Rob Waller
Okay. And
00;52;36;08 - 00;52;41;04
Dr Rob Waller
Why why was that? And, you know, the answer is because the pulpit was extremely liberal.
00;52;41;06 - 00;52;49;18
Dr Rob Waller
In, in, in postwar, UK and I think also in Sydney as well. So their focus was Bible teaching.
00;52;49;21 - 00;52;51;27
Dr Rob Waller
All the way. And if you're not careful, Bible.
00;52;51;27 - 00;52;53;28
Dr Rob Waller
Teaching becomes you knew God.
00;52;54;00 - 00;52;57;06
Dr Rob Waller
And it it the idea that.
00;52;57;08 - 00;53;04;04
Dr Rob Waller
Someone might have, a thematic series rather than an expository series, almost becomes.
00;53;04;06 - 00;53;08;26
Dr Rob Waller
Illegal or that the Holy Spirit might have.
00;53;08;28 - 00;53;11;28
Dr Rob Waller
The role as the third member of the Trinity rather than father, son, and Holy.
00;53;11;28 - 00;53;12;09
Dr Rob Waller
Bible.
00;53;12;15 - 00;53;14;05
Dr Rob Waller
You know, we believe in father, son and Holy Spirit.
00;53;14;05 - 00;53;17;08
Dr Rob Waller
So, so even in healthy Bible teaching.
00;53;17;08 - 00;53;18;16
Dr Rob Waller
Churches, if that makes sense.
00;53;18;16 - 00;53;19;16
Dr Rob Waller
There's this, I.
00;53;19;16 - 00;53;20;27
Dr Rob Waller
Think, undue emphasis.
00;53;20;27 - 00;53;21;28
Dr Rob Waller
Placed on.
00;53;22;06 - 00;53;23;05
Dr Rob Waller
On certain things.
00;53;23;05 - 00;53;26;12
Dr Rob Waller
And because particularly.
00;53;26;12 - 00;53;29;04
Dr Rob Waller
In certain traditions, Bible teaching is only handled by a.
00;53;29;04 - 00;53;30;29
Dr Rob Waller
Few, you.
00;53;31;00 - 00;53;31;26
Dr Rob Waller
End up creating work.
00;53;31;26 - 00;53;37;28
Dr Rob Waller
For yourself, and you end up viewing everything through the biblical lens. But as you never particularly.
00;53;38;00 - 00;53;38;21
Dr Rob Waller
Decide to make.
00;53;38;21 - 00;53;42;05
Dr Rob Waller
A chair through the lens of the Bible, and I think that's where this idea of the.
00;53;42;05 - 00;53;43;02
Dr Rob Waller
Concentric circles.
00;53;43;02 - 00;53;45;14
Dr Rob Waller
Is, is so helpful. Which is, yes, it's the.
00;53;45;14 - 00;53;48;00
Dr Rob Waller
Scripture that tells us about the human heart.
00;53;48;02 - 00;53;49;07
Dr Rob Waller
But.
00;53;49;09 - 00;53;53;00
Dr Rob Waller
That's encased in a brain that's encased in a body.
00;53;53;03 - 00;53;54;17
Dr Rob Waller
And, you know, I.
00;53;54;20 - 00;54;07;02
Dr Rob Waller
Was doing a session for some of the civic leaders in a local church and, you know, young interns and so on. And one of the things I said was, do you want your boss's job?
00;54;07;04 - 00;54;07;26
Dr Rob Waller
You know, you're.
00;54;07;28 - 00;54;09;24
Dr Rob Waller
Spending a sort of an intern kind of.
00;54;09;25 - 00;54;10;20
Dr Rob Waller
Year.
00;54;11;10 - 00;54;17;12
Dr Rob Waller
You know, there's a reasonable chance that you might then go in to do some ministry training and become a local church leader.
00;54;17;15 - 00;54;18;23
Dr Rob Waller
Look at our local church leader.
00;54;18;24 - 00;54;21;20
Dr Rob Waller
See, you know, there's this thing for them in our immediate network locally.
00;54;21;28 - 00;54;28;07
Dr Rob Waller
Do you want their jobs? And you know, because these guys.
00;54;28;07 - 00;54;29;02
Dr Rob Waller
Are in their 40s.
00;54;29;02 - 00;54;38;27
Dr Rob Waller
50s and they're burning out. Yeah. And, you know, they haven't necessarily, you know, they they've stayed true to perhaps the one aspect of the.
00;54;38;27 - 00;54;39;26
Dr Rob Waller
Faith which in that.
00;54;39;26 - 00;54;40;10
Dr Rob Waller
Particular.
00;54;40;10 - 00;54;45;20
Dr Rob Waller
Tradition might be the Bible teaching and in other traditions it will be to view everything through a charismatic.
00;54;45;20 - 00;54;49;13
Dr Rob Waller
Lens. So, you know, which, one level, that's a high view of the.
00;54;49;13 - 00;54;50;13
Dr Rob Waller
Power of the Holy Spirit.
00;54;50;13 - 00;54;54;14
Dr Rob Waller
Another level, it's it's fantasy, that everything.
00;54;54;14 - 00;54;56;07
Dr Rob Waller
Will be fixed supernaturally.
00;54;56;09 - 00;55;01;13
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. And also, it's unhelpful because if things are fixed supernaturally, we don't know how we got better, so we can't get.
00;55;01;13 - 00;55;04;13
Dr Rob Waller
Ourselves better next time. We just need to wait for the Shabbat to have a date.
00;55;04;29 - 00;55;11;10
Dr Rob Waller
So. So I think, you know, we sort of need to have a good hard look at the, the sort of mental and emotional.
00;55;11;10 - 00;55;21;16
Dr Rob Waller
Well-Being and spiritual well-being of, of people who are sort of senior, influential people in a denomination. This will say, do I want their job?
00;55;21;19 - 00;55;21;29
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah.
00;55;21;29 - 00;55;24;22
Dr Rob Waller
And if the answer is no, you need to ask why.
00;55;24;26 - 00;55;25;20
Dr Rob Waller
And we need to stop.
00;55;25;20 - 00;55;32;23
Dr Rob Waller
Using excuses like, oh, you know, if you stand up for the gospel, it promise that you'll be persecuted and all this kind of stuff. But, you.
00;55;32;23 - 00;55;35;21
Dr Rob Waller
Know, there is an element of truth on that. But it's also true to.
00;55;35;21 - 00;55;37;05
Dr Rob Waller
Say they've got quite a lot of persecution.
00;55;37;07 - 00;55;39;25
Dr Rob Waller
And so yeah, that's right. But over spiritual.
00;55;39;26 - 00;55;49;05
Dr Rob Waller
Housing things, everybody comes to them with pastoral problems. They've effectively created an industry out where no one wants to go and see the GP and talk about this stuff, because they've been told it's a spiritual thing. It needs fixing by Bible study.
00;55;49;12 - 00;55;51;14
Dr Rob Waller
Now that that's an extreme.
00;55;51;16 - 00;55;55;22
Dr Rob Waller
I'm sort of waxing lyrical a little bit there. You know, I'm not saying anyone is.
00;55;55;22 - 00;55;58;27
Dr Rob Waller
Quite that bad, but it becomes a self-fulfilling.
00;55;58;27 - 00;56;00;26
Dr Rob Waller
Machine where everyone's busy.
00;56;01;10 - 00;56;04;10
Dr Rob Waller
So they double down on their core message, which.
00;56;04;10 - 00;56;07;17
Dr Rob Waller
Actually is is just further down the rabbit hole. And actually.
00;56;07;17 - 00;56;08;15
Dr Rob Waller
I think.
00;56;08;17 - 00;56;09;16
Dr Rob Waller
What we need to do is we need to say.
00;56;09;16 - 00;56;16;03
Dr Rob Waller
Look, God is sovereign. God is building his church. He is building his church. In some places. He is refining his church.
00;56;16;03 - 00;56;16;10
Dr Rob Waller
In other.
00;56;16;10 - 00;56;19;21
Dr Rob Waller
Places. He's he has called us to a holistic.
00;56;19;27 - 00;56;22;20
Dr Rob Waller
Life of of following him.
00;56;22;22 - 00;56;24;27
Dr Rob Waller
And that should.
00;56;24;27 - 00;56;37;17
Dr Rob Waller
Be for 40 years of, you know, 40 years of ministry. We need to do ministry in a way that will last for 40 years. And that actually is when they get slightly more interesting and attractive. And, you know, a lot of younger people don't want.
00;56;37;20 - 00;56;38;19
Dr Rob Waller
The Church.
00;56;38;19 - 00;56;41;18
Dr Rob Waller
Of Scotland as an example, in Church of Scotland in problems. There were some.
00;56;41;21 - 00;56;42;27
Dr Rob Waller
Stats out yesterday.
00;56;43;04 - 00;56;58;12
Dr Rob Waller
Saying that, you know, from the 2022 census or whatever it was for the first time, the number of people in Scotland who say they have no religion has gone up by 50%. And the reason for that is that basically, since the last census, ten years before, the number of people.
00;56;58;12 - 00;57;03;16
Dr Rob Waller
Who take Church of Scotland is halved. So the Church of Scotland has major problems.
00;57;03;16 - 00;57;06;24
Dr Rob Waller
And there's a number of reasons for that. Some of you could say is.
00;57;06;27 - 00;57;07;28
Dr Rob Waller
Actually that's.
00;57;08;00 - 00;57;09;23
Dr Rob Waller
Potentially good refining.
00;57;09;25 - 00;57;10;15
Dr Rob Waller
All over.
00;57;10;15 - 00;57;11;21
Dr Rob Waller
Tradition that.
00;57;11;23 - 00;57;12;03
Dr Rob Waller
Perhaps.
00;57;12;03 - 00;57;13;13
Dr Rob Waller
Have become quite liberal and quite.
00;57;13;14 - 00;57;14;04
Dr Rob Waller
Nominal.
00;57;14;04 - 00;57;23;11
Dr Rob Waller
And, you know, what we're doing is we're really boiling that down to the people who are actually actually Christians in their. Yes, I think a lot of them are just on the church role and very nominal.
00;57;24;11 - 00;57;25;29
Dr Rob Waller
But, you know, they also have a.
00;57;26;02 - 00;57;29;07
Dr Rob Waller
Similar sort of leadership crisis to what, you know, in terms of recruitment.
00;57;29;07 - 00;57;30;28
Dr Rob Waller
And so, and one.
00;57;30;28 - 00;57;37;02
Dr Rob Waller
Of the reasons for that is that they insist on three years of theological training in a university.
00;57;37;04 - 00;57;42;11
Dr Rob Waller
And that doesn't work for for most people. You know, if you if it were might about two.
00;57;42;11 - 00;57;52;14
Dr Rob Waller
Hundred years ago, you know, where the model was. You know, the oldest son takes on the family business, the second son goes off and joins the army, and the third son goes into the church. You know.
00;57;52;16 - 00;57;53;18
Dr Rob Waller
That was a classic sort.
00;57;53;18 - 00;57;56;14
Dr Rob Waller
Of you think about your Bronte novels, you know, Middlemarch and Jane.
00;57;56;14 - 00;58;00;03
Dr Rob Waller
Eyre. That's what happened. So, so, you know, and.
00;58;00;03 - 00;58;02;19
Dr Rob Waller
Then you do, you know, you see a theological study and off you.
00;58;02;19 - 00;58;05;15
Dr Rob Waller
Go. Yeah. But the reality is that three years of.
00;58;05;15 - 00;58;09;14
Dr Rob Waller
Academic study is probably not why most young church leaders are at there.
00;58;09;14 - 00;58;11;13
Dr Rob Waller
Either. They're either.
00;58;11;14 - 00;58;12;07
Dr Rob Waller
Thinking.
00;58;12;09 - 00;58;13;13
Dr Rob Waller
I've actually got a job.
00;58;13;16 - 00;58;19;02
Dr Rob Waller
And that to a certain extent, my mission field, I don't want to give it up and study full time. I want to do ministerial training one day a week.
00;58;19;08 - 00;58;28;26
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, or two days a week. Or actually, I'm not particularly academic. I'm more of a fisherman like Peter. You know, I can't read or write. Jesus did.
00;58;28;26 - 00;58;38;22
Dr Rob Waller
Not take people into the traditional rabbinic school of, Greek and Hebrew and all that kind of stuff. He basically walked up to a bunch of fishermen who were probably illiterate and said, follow me.
00;58;38;25 - 00;58;42;19
Dr Rob Waller
So. So how do we have that? And, one of the things talking.
00;58;42;20 - 00;58;46;11
Dr Rob Waller
About Nicky Gumbel and HTB in their theological college, they just launched two new.
00;58;46;11 - 00;58;47;29
Dr Rob Waller
Streams. They've had a.
00;58;48;01 - 00;58;53;18
Dr Rob Waller
A one day week stream for quite some time where you can go and study part time, but they just watch these two new streams, and one is called.
00;58;53;18 - 00;58;56;28
Dr Rob Waller
The Peter Stream. And it's for people who, for whatever.
00;58;56;28 - 00;59;03;03
Dr Rob Waller
Reason, don't have the collection of 70, university educations.
00;59;03;03 - 00;59;11;27
Dr Rob Waller
And I love it, taking people who were a bit rough and ready. They've also got a Caleb stream for people who get to the age of 50, 60, who.
00;59;11;27 - 00;59;23;24
Dr Rob Waller
Perhaps have been successful in a different sphere of life and think, I want to devote the last ten, 20 years of my energy levels to the local church, and I'm going to be like Cambridge 90, still fighting off the hill.
00;59;23;26 - 00;59;25;15
Dr Rob Waller
So they they're taking and these.
00;59;25;15 - 00;59;33;24
Dr Rob Waller
People don't want to spend three years full time study. They've often got, you know, a couple of non-executive directorships going on and they're involved in charity work and looking after the grandkids.
00;59;33;24 - 00;59;35;27
Dr Rob Waller
So so how do we get this pizza stream?
00;59;35;27 - 00;59;37;22
Dr Rob Waller
And this Caleb stream into the church.
00;59;37;22 - 00;59;39;03
Dr Rob Waller
Is a lot of it's.
00;59;39;03 - 00;59;44;24
Dr Rob Waller
Challenging. Perhaps. Traditional ideas of church leadership role.
00;59;44;24 - 00;59;58;27
Dave Quak
Please keep me posted on that because as soon as you mentioned both of those, I got so excited because there are so many Peter's out there who don't think they usable within church systems, and then they go and succeed in other endeavors, which God bless him doing that. But we need them in the kingdom to.
00;59;59;04 - 01;00;00;02
Dr Rob Waller
Innovating.
01;00;00;02 - 01;00;02;15
Dave Quak
And being Ross being around the edges.
01;00;02;17 - 01;00;06;19
Dr Rob Waller
So it's similar to similar to college. Yeah, go a.
01;00;06;19 - 01;00;07;27
Dave Quak
Little bit and I'll get the link.
01;00;07;29 - 01;00;08;16
Dr Rob Waller
To get the link.
01;00;08;16 - 01;00;10;01
Dr Rob Waller
Later and you can post it in your show.
01;00;10;01 - 01;00;28;01
Dave Quak
Notes. Yeah. Put it in the notes for sure. The Caleb one especially too because we're at it. We got a few fellows in our world looking at retirement and they're still. So they got 30 years a usable life left in them, you know that. I mean, just sit around fishing. Maybe they'll do that for a few months. But then after that they love Jesus and want to be mobilized.
01;00;28;01 - 01;00;46;06
Dave Quak
So yeah, bring on the Caleb College. And it's a great idea. Well what's your passion coming into the future role. What are you looking forward to. I know you've got to I imagine you've got a book coming up or some more writing since you've got about 6000 articles I imagine you're writing something.
01;00;46;09 - 01;00;53;02
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah I think there's no immediate book at the moment. I think I think kind of my, my sort of.
01;00;53;02 - 01;00;59;01
Dr Rob Waller
Personal thing at the moment is, is it's probably actually going on the journey that I've been talking about and writing about.
01;00;59;04 - 01;01;00;03
Dr Rob Waller
For some time.
01;01;00;03 - 01;01;04;19
Dr Rob Waller
So I'm, I'm 50 this year, you know, so I'm sort of thinking, right, what.
01;01;04;19 - 01;01;06;19
Dr Rob Waller
Is the what is the second half of life.
01;01;06;19 - 01;01;12;06
Dr Rob Waller
Look like? And, and the first three books, were look, I sort of this is.
01;01;12;10 - 01;01;13;16
Dave Quak
The stuff of life.
01;01;13;18 - 01;01;16;18
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of, you know, this the stuff of life. Yeah. That was about.
01;01;16;18 - 01;01;20;13
Dr Rob Waller
Student student mental health. That was with with fusion. So, yeah, that was the very first one.
01;01;20;13 - 01;01;22;20
Dr Rob Waller
But the books two, three, four were.
01;01;22;21 - 01;01;38;11
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of quite sort of cognitive behavioral therapy, theology, psychology kind of things. So we had one about worry or slash anxiety, one about depression, slash guilt, and one about, you know, perfectionism, which is, which we always joke is, is the one you want to read.
01;01;38;11 - 01;01;39;21
Dr Rob Waller
If you want to get.
01;01;39;23 - 01;01;41;11
Dr Rob Waller
Stressed or depressed because you will, you.
01;01;41;11 - 01;01;46;07
Dave Quak
Go to it. And that's the best. So, you know, so if it's the perfectionist book, like, yeah.
01;01;46;10 - 01;01;53;01
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. Well it's actually the, the worry ones that really. Well because the problem with perfectionists is, if you're still a.
01;01;53;01 - 01;01;55;06
Dr Rob Waller
Succeeding perfectionist and the wheels have.
01;01;55;07 - 01;02;00;26
Dr Rob Waller
Been falling off, that's why I want you read a book. You don't have time for it. You know, I people pick it.
01;02;00;26 - 01;02;11;23
Dr Rob Waller
Up when the perfectionism is starting to fail, and they realize that their approaches to success are not getting in the way of their goals, and they're, you know, that procrastination and their perfectionism.
01;02;11;23 - 01;02;12;10
Dr Rob Waller
Is actually.
01;02;12;10 - 01;02;16;18
Dr Rob Waller
Stopping them doing things. By that point, it's almost too late.
01;02;16;21 - 01;02;18;02
Dr Rob Waller
You know, you've the idea.
01;02;18;02 - 01;02;25;24
Dr Rob Waller
Is to really spot it when you're, a succeeding perfectionist and, you know, at some point, the irresistible force will hit the immovable object.
01;02;25;24 - 01;02;26;15
Dr Rob Waller
Oh, yes.
01;02;27;11 - 01;02;33;19
Dr Rob Waller
And it's about trying to sort of get hold of these sort of perfectionists before that point and say, wheels are going to come up, wheels are going to come off.
01;02;33;20 - 01;02;36;15
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. So, so the last book, The Power of the.
01;02;36;15 - 01;02;45;28
Dr Rob Waller
Belonging, was kind of written in terms of a sort of slightly deeper dive going it a bit more sort of personal, looking at the story of Moses,
01;02;46;00 - 01;02;47;21
Dr Rob Waller
Who, you know, had it all.
01;02;47;21 - 01;02;53;23
Dr Rob Waller
He had the career, the qualifications, Prince of Egypt, all this kind of stuff. And then it all went belly up when he killed an Egyptian.
01;02;53;26 - 01;02;54;23
Dr Rob Waller
And he had to kind of.
01;02;54;23 - 01;02;57;04
Dr Rob Waller
Run off and do some deep work in Midian.
01;02;57;06 - 01;02;58;24
Dr Rob Waller
And he almost.
01;02;58;24 - 01;03;09;17
Dr Rob Waller
Got it right. So he went to be a shepherd, and he water a shepherd for his brother in law. And, he watered sheep. And the problem is, he wasn't quite right. He was meant to be a shepherd for God, and he was meant to water the people of Israel.
01;03;09;20 - 01;03;14;03
Dr Rob Waller
And so, you know, he was he was kind of looking out for the wrong flock, and he just needed.
01;03;14;03 - 01;03;28;22
Dr Rob Waller
To sort of realize that and then come back and, so I think for me, that was my, my sort of trip to trip to New Zealand was to sort of realize at a very pragmatic level that the grass is not greener over here, the grass is not greener over there, the grass is greener where.
01;03;28;22 - 01;03;31;22
Dr Rob Waller
You water it. Yeah. Which which we all know that saying.
01;03;31;22 - 01;03;38;18
Dr Rob Waller
But sometimes you have to go on your sort of crazy midlife adventure and, and find that out and.
01;03;39;05 - 01;03;39;26
Dr Rob Waller
You know, have.
01;03;39;26 - 01;03;47;24
Dr Rob Waller
Absolutely no regrets about going, I think, you know, said earlier, I grew up in a foreign country. My wife was born in Jamaica. So she she grew up with the sand between the ties as well. You.
01;03;47;24 - 01;03;48;10
Dr Rob Waller
Know, we wanted.
01;03;48;10 - 01;03;53;05
Dr Rob Waller
That experience for our kids. And we had a great couple of years with all families also right to come home.
01;03;54;18 - 01;03;56;14
Dr Rob Waller
But I think it was that sort of.
01;03;56;14 - 01;03;58;16
Dr Rob Waller
First pass of.
01;03;58;19 - 01;04;01;22
Dr Rob Waller
This is a deeper work that I need. So, so kind of.
01;04;01;22 - 01;04;24;25
Dr Rob Waller
What I'm thinking, sort of working through at the moment is I've got sort of roughly ten years of, full time work for the NHS, and then I probably will work part time and perhaps pick up some other things. So I'm, I'm really sort of trying to spend the time getting some of this healthy habits in. So for example, one thing I've, I've, I've just done over the last couple of years is, is really just try and start the day with scripture.
01;04;24;28 - 01;04;27;11
Dr Rob Waller
You know, the the idea I suppose, is, you know, screens before.
01;04;27;11 - 01;04;29;14
Dr Rob Waller
Screens and, you know, sometimes.
01;04;29;14 - 01;04;40;09
Dr Rob Waller
It's amazing and sometimes it's just habit. But just, just getting up. Yeah, it's reading is, dipping a bit into the sort of mystical tradition, the lectio divina. Nice. Seeing a spiritual.
01;04;40;09 - 01;04;46;05
Dr Rob Waller
Director. That's hugely helpful. You know, so I think, I think just really wanted.
01;04;46;05 - 01;04;54;10
Dr Rob Waller
To make sure that and again, it's all part of what we're saying about, you know, generational patterns and, and that sort of thing. I want to make sure that I'm.
01;04;54;12 - 01;05;03;16
Dr Rob Waller
In my 50th year physically healthy. Yeah. So I'm trying to keep fit. And so that was sort of your challenge with to I want to be psychologically healthy.
01;05;03;16 - 01;05;06;12
Dr Rob Waller
I want to have a good work life balance. I want to say no to stuff.
01;05;06;13 - 01;05;07;08
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah.
01;05;07;11 - 01;05;12;27
Dr Rob Waller
And I want to be spiritually healthy. I want to have a spirituality that will work.
01;05;12;29 - 01;05;14;29
Dr Rob Waller
You know, for me, it's all about the.
01;05;14;29 - 01;05;27;17
Dr Rob Waller
Presence of Jesus, I think. I think sometimes, you know, particularly in evangelical circles, it's all about right. You know, Jesus came and paid the price. Unforgiven go to ten other people.
01;05;27;17 - 01;05;31;20
Dr Rob Waller
So what do you tell them? About what? What's the good news? You know. Sure. The good.
01;05;31;20 - 01;05;33;07
Dr Rob Waller
News is that my sins are forgiven, and that's.
01;05;33;07 - 01;05;34;02
Dr Rob Waller
Great.
01;05;34;05 - 01;05;35;28
Dr Rob Waller
But that's not good news. That's just an absence of bad.
01;05;35;28 - 01;05;36;15
Dr Rob Waller
Yes.
01;05;36;18 - 01;05;41;27
Dr Rob Waller
The good news is I get to follow the rabbi. Yeah, I get to.
01;05;41;29 - 01;05;42;28
Dr Rob Waller
01;05;43;00 - 01;05;44;28
Dr Rob Waller
Be like him. You know, I've really been enjoying.
01;05;45;00 - 01;05;46;18
Dave Quak
Oh, brother. I knew you were going to say that.
01;05;46;19 - 01;05;48;04
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. Practicing the. So.
01;05;48;05 - 01;05;52;17
Dr Rob Waller
Good. It's just. It's just it's just been great to sort of rebound.
01;05;52;17 - 01;05;53;13
Dr Rob Waller
And dip into that.
01;05;53;13 - 01;05;57;19
Dr Rob Waller
And so I think really putting that out and I mean, I've known myself.
01;05;57;19 - 01;06;06;17
Dr Rob Waller
Suffered with mental illness as such. But I can definitely see patterns, attitudes, relationships that that kind of stuff that I feel.
01;06;06;20 - 01;06;08;12
Dr Rob Waller
I want to.
01;06;08;14 - 01;06;11;15
Dr Rob Waller
Kind of bottom this out because I don't want this to be an influence on.
01;06;11;15 - 01;06;11;20
Dr Rob Waller
My.
01;06;11;20 - 01;06;14;04
Dr Rob Waller
Children. You know, my, my kids are.
01;06;14;06 - 01;06;14;14
Dr Rob Waller
Sort of.
01;06;14;14 - 01;06;18;28
Dr Rob Waller
Just starting to do exams and that sort of thing with high school exams and so on. And one of the things that I'm.
01;06;18;28 - 01;06;20;01
Dr Rob Waller
Really trying to focus.
01;06;20;01 - 01;06;21;00
Dr Rob Waller
On is to make sure.
01;06;21;00 - 01;06;24;02
Dr Rob Waller
I don't live through them. Yeah. You know, they sure, I'm.
01;06;24;02 - 01;06;27;21
Dr Rob Waller
Going to encourage them to study hard and do some revision and, and that kind of stuff.
01;06;27;21 - 01;06;29;03
Dr Rob Waller
But that's not.
01;06;29;03 - 01;06;29;15
Dr Rob Waller
Who they are.
01;06;29;15 - 01;06;29;29
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah.
01;06;30;02 - 01;06;32;16
Dr Rob Waller
Who they are is my child God's child.
01;06;33;02 - 01;06;33;12
Dr Rob Waller
If.
01;06;33;12 - 01;06;50;20
Dr Rob Waller
If they get reasonable grades, great. If they don't, well, you know, if they were some latent academic hiding inside there, they can always come back and discover that later in life. So, you know, the most important thing, it's the is the, you know, that their faith in their emotional well-being, those are the most important things.
01;06;50;20 - 01;06;52;06
Dr Rob Waller
So I think really just.
01;06;52;09 - 01;06;56;20
Dr Rob Waller
Pushing into some of those things that perhaps are unconsciously laid on me.
01;06;56;20 - 01;06;58;21
Dr Rob Waller
By, who knows.
01;06;58;21 - 01;07;07;01
Dr Rob Waller
Maybe my school. You know, I was always bright at school. And then I went to Cambridge, as we were saying earlier, and it's kind of boom, boom, boom, you know, success, success. Yes.
01;07;07;03 - 01;07;12;15
Dr Rob Waller
And it, it I think that's I really want to bottom into that. And I'm very grateful.
01;07;12;15 - 01;07;14;27
Dr Rob Waller
For those things because I've got a bunch of skills that hopefully I can.
01;07;14;27 - 01;07;15;21
Dr Rob Waller
Share, but they.
01;07;15;27 - 01;07;17;14
Dr Rob Waller
Can't be my identity.
01;07;17;14 - 01;07;19;15
Dr Rob Waller
So the short answer is the books.
01;07;19;15 - 01;07;36;04
Dr Rob Waller
Have been getting more personal, over time, so I'm not quite sure what the next one looked like. But, you know, it'll probably be a slightly sort of deeper, deeper kind of dive, probably something around sort of leaders and mental health and that kind of thing. But it'll probably be about, you know, kind of my story and journey in there as well.
01;07;36;04 - 01;07;52;28
Dave Quak
That's so cool. I wish we could talk about this for another five hours, because what you mentioned about the practicing the Way stuff and all of that, exactly what you said, it transformed the gospel into good news for me. Like beforehand, I knew I should share the gospel, you know, because you should. Well, what do I want people just to live a sinless life?
01;07;52;28 - 01;08;05;09
Dave Quak
There's got to be more than this or a sin forgiven life. And then once you start engaging with the actual practices and the man and Jesus, then you'll, oh, this is something I want my friends to know about. I want to share this, you know.
01;08;05;11 - 01;08;06;05
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, yeah.
01;08;06;06 - 01;08;21;12
Dave Quak
You know, what a legacy you'll get to leave. Because if you're fresh, that means you can write for another, like 20 years and just leave so many resources for, like, my generation and the next ones. I'm only seven years younger than you, Rob. I really feel like I've got to hurry up and do a few more things. By the time I'm 50.
01;08;21;14 - 01;08;27;00
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah, I do do that. Yeah. No. Right. I think you, you get more by saying no value.
01;08;27;00 - 01;08;32;07
Dave Quak
So just on a practical note, the best way to buy your books is straight on Amazon. Or do you have a preferred way.
01;08;32;11 - 01;08;34;13
Dr Rob Waller
Amazon's good that they're by different publishers.
01;08;34;13 - 01;08;46;19
Dr Rob Waller
Some of by IVP. So InterVarsity press yeah. And I've got publishing house in, in Australia, but so the last one's by David C cook. But yeah, Amazon probably is, is as good as your.
01;08;46;22 - 01;08;47;21
Dr Rob Waller
And then and you know, I.
01;08;47;21 - 01;08;48;16
Dr Rob Waller
Think you mentioned earlier the.
01;08;48;16 - 01;08;50;18
Dr Rob Waller
Website extracts.
01;08;50;18 - 01;08;51;16
Dr Rob Waller
You know, a couple of sample.
01;08;51;16 - 01;08;53;00
Dr Rob Waller
Chapters talks.
01;08;53;00 - 01;09;02;26
Dr Rob Waller
On on the topic as well. So if you're a sort of audio listener rather than a reader, you know, we've got the YouTube web and podcast and all that kind of stuff.
01;09;03;01 - 01;09;09;23
Dave Quak
Can I just say your website's the best one I've found for resources? I have no idea. It's 15 years old now. He's at Rumble.
01;09;09;25 - 01;09;11;24
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. We just we just chucked stuff on it. It's the kind.
01;09;11;24 - 01;09;14;05
Dr Rob Waller
Of Google principle. The good stuff flows to the top, right?
01;09;14;05 - 01;09;26;17
Dave Quak
It is so good. And I just appreciate that it's all free and that there's some proper good resources there. I don't know how you're getting funding for that, but God bless whoever's behind that because that is a proper great ministry.
01;09;26;20 - 01;09;28;07
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah. To be honest, it's just.
01;09;28;12 - 01;09;32;26
Dr Rob Waller
We just get occasional little guests from people. The website's not super expensive, I think.
01;09;32;26 - 01;09;34;20
Dr Rob Waller
I think, you know, the nice thing is we have no staff.
01;09;34;20 - 01;09;37;19
Dr Rob Waller
I think a lot of people look at the minds of our nation and think, we must have about 30.
01;09;37;22 - 01;09;40;10
Dr Rob Waller
It looks like it know there's there's there's basically.
01;09;40;10 - 01;09;43;29
Dr Rob Waller
Five of us who've, all got full time jobs and just write stuff periodically.
01;09;44;05 - 01;09;46;16
Dr Rob Waller
So, I like I say it's been a little bit quiet.
01;09;46;16 - 01;09;56;29
Dr Rob Waller
Recently because we've been doing this big sort of change of focus into leaders, but, new website coming shiny, you know, looks a bit more modern, that kind of stuff. So there'll be a whole bunch of new stuff coming later on.
01;09;56;29 - 01;10;08;25
Dave Quak
It's not so good. Any listeners, I'll put the link in the show notes, but get on it because it is really good. Rob as we one down, I love to ask our guests to pray if they're comfortable. Are you happy to pray for our listeners?
01;10;08;25 - 01;10;10;19
Dr Rob Waller
And yeah, definitely of course.
01;10;10;19 - 01;10;13;21
Dr Rob Waller
Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Father God, we.
01;10;13;21 - 01;10;17;25
Dr Rob Waller
Just, thank you for this chance to to chat. It's amazing that we can be 12.
01;10;17;25 - 01;10;18;29
Dr Rob Waller
Thousand miles apart.
01;10;19;01 - 01;10;27;22
Dr Rob Waller
And able to, to talk through the wonders of technology. And, Lord, isn't it wonderful that when we when we follow the rabbi, when we follow Jesus, we realize.
01;10;27;22 - 01;10;28;21
Dr Rob Waller
That,
01;10;28;24 - 01;10;30;10
Dr Rob Waller
He's someone who.
01;10;30;12 - 01;10;31;06
Dr Rob Waller
Had a natural.
01;10;31;06 - 01;10;44;05
Dr Rob Waller
Understanding of the importance of community and relationships. He's someone who had a a natural understanding of psychology and encouraged us to to renew our minds and to put things into practice and, and do CBT.
01;10;44;05 - 01;10;48;22
Dr Rob Waller
Basically, he's someone who understood family relationships.
01;10;48;29 - 01;10;50;07
Dr Rob Waller
And asked in very.
01;10;50;09 - 01;10;50;20
Dr Rob Waller
Pointed.
01;10;50;20 - 01;10;53;05
Dr Rob Waller
Ways who were, father and mother.
01;10;53;10 - 01;10;54;20
Dr Rob Waller
And, and he's also.
01;10;54;20 - 01;11;07;04
Dr Rob Waller
Someone who when he left he promised the along Paraclete was the same but different alongside presence. You know, we thank you so much that you have sent Holy Spirit to be with us.
01;11;07;04 - 01;11;07;16
Dr Rob Waller
To to.
01;11;07;16 - 01;11;16;01
Dr Rob Waller
Help us as we try to discern this, that we can rest in your presence. And, Lord, I just want to pray particularly for any listeners who've been.
01;11;16;01 - 01;11;20;19
Dr Rob Waller
Encouraged to be more, multi multifactorial.
01;11;20;19 - 01;11;25;02
Dr Rob Waller
In terms of how they think about things, about the biologic, the psychological.
01;11;25;02 - 01;11;28;12
Dr Rob Waller
The spiritual, the social, but still not quite sure the.
01;11;28;12 - 01;11;33;03
Dr Rob Waller
Proportions. And, you know, I want to pray, first of all, they would know that you are.
01;11;33;03 - 01;11;34;17
Dr Rob Waller
Their father.
01;11;34;19 - 01;11;41;23
Dr Rob Waller
And those proportions don't matter. But secondly, the that you have given them a Holy Spirit. And as it says in the book of James, if anyone likes.
01;11;41;29 - 01;11;42;26
Dr Rob Waller
That, we should ask.
01;11;42;26 - 01;11;44;28
Dr Rob Waller
And it will be given. So I do encourage.
01;11;44;28 - 01;11;46;21
Dr Rob Waller
People to to rest in.
01;11;46;26 - 01;11;48;14
Dr Rob Waller
The presence of God, to to.
01;11;48;15 - 01;11;49;01
Dr Rob Waller
Hear his.
01;11;49;01 - 01;11;55;09
Dr Rob Waller
Gentle voice, to to know that that empowering voice that draws us close in, to be able to.
01;11;55;09 - 01;11;58;13
Dr Rob Waller
Spot the negative voice, perhaps.
01;11;58;13 - 01;12;03;17
Dr Rob Waller
Of our, negative bias in our brain or or the enemy who will draw us.
01;12;03;17 - 01;12;05;00
Dr Rob Waller
Away from God.
01;12;05;02 - 01;12;06;05
Dr Rob Waller
And make us feel not.
01;12;06;05 - 01;12;07;19
Dr Rob Waller
Worthy. And though we say.
01;12;07;19 - 01;12;09;20
Dr Rob Waller
No to that voice, we say.
01;12;09;22 - 01;12;12;04
Dr Rob Waller
No. That voice arises from.
01;12;12;07 - 01;12;20;05
Dr Rob Waller
Either a reptilian brain that's looking on the lookout for danger, or it arises from the evil one in whom we we say, in the name of Jesus, no.
01;12;20;05 - 01;12;22;19
Dr Rob Waller
Space hear, no place to hear. Your voice is.
01;12;22;19 - 01;12;23;16
Dr Rob Waller
Not allowed here.
01;12;23;16 - 01;12;27;23
Dr Rob Waller
Because I am a child of God. And no, we just pray.
01;12;27;23 - 01;12;30;00
Dr Rob Waller
For people as they go on this journey of.
01;12;30;02 - 01;12;34;18
Dr Rob Waller
Of discovery, of whatever it is I don't want to use.
01;12;34;18 - 01;12;35;13
Dr Rob Waller
Terms like mental.
01;12;35;13 - 01;12;36;09
Dr Rob Waller
Health or.
01;12;36;10 - 01;12;43;24
Dr Rob Waller
Mental illness. We are who we are, father, as you love us just as we are. Even when.
01;12;43;26 - 01;12;44;24
Dr Rob Waller
We were.
01;12;44;27 - 01;12;47;00
Dr Rob Waller
Exhibiting symptoms of perhaps serious.
01;12;47;00 - 01;12;49;05
Dr Rob Waller
Illness like the the.
01;12;49;06 - 01;12;52;22
Dr Rob Waller
Chap in the kerosene region, you you landed and you spoke and you.
01;12;52;22 - 01;12;53;15
Dr Rob Waller
Empowered and.
01;12;53;15 - 01;13;03;16
Dr Rob Waller
You encouraged. And I want to pray particularly to or for any perhaps who you have got a history of severe mental illness, who don't feel qualified, who are more like the the Peters.
01;13;03;18 - 01;13;06;12
Dr Rob Waller
Who, who feel that they are, rather.
01;13;06;12 - 01;13;20;04
Dr Rob Waller
Rough and ready because of their experiences? Lord, I want them to be empowered knowing that they have a unique ministry. They have a richness. They have an experience that education cannot, cannot meet. So we just pray for those who are listening. Pray that.
01;13;20;04 - 01;13;21;16
Dr Rob Waller
They would be able to.
01;13;21;18 - 01;13;27;01
Dr Rob Waller
Dip into the website and have a good, good rummage. Use the search engine and find useful stuff. But but.
01;13;27;01 - 01;13;35;12
Dr Rob Waller
Most importantly, they would know your love for you alongside those in Jesus with whom.
01;13;35;15 - 01;13;47;15
Dave Quak
God bless you doctor, Rob, Lola and your family, your legend and we really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on the.
01;13;47;17 - 01;14;11;02
Dave Quak
For more candid conversations on faith and mental well-being, check out Something and souls.com. You can subscribe to our podcast on any major provider, or contact us directly to book us to preach or speak. Some of that souls is a faith based ministry, and we want to thank everybody so far for their generous support. If you want to get behind us, pray our message reaches the ears of those that need to hear it.
01;14;11;04 - 01;14;20;27
Dave Quak
Feel free to donate financially online, but if you feel obliged or manipulated to give you better off shouting a loved one a coffee instead. I'm Dave Clark from Somewhere and Solace.
Conversations with a Christian Psychiatrist... Dr. Rob Waller
Jun 30, 2024•1 hr 15 min
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Episode description
Sunburnt Souls – Where Faith and Mental Health Collide
In this episode of Sunburnt Souls, we sit down with Dr. Rob Waller, a seasoned Consultant Psychiatrist with over 20 years of experience. From his medical studies at the University of Cambridge to his work across the UK and New Zealand, Dr. Waller brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to the discussion of faith, mental health, and the integration of spirituality in professional mental health care.
Faith and Mental Health: Understanding the Intersection
Dr. Waller helps distinguish between spiritual, mental, and biological issues, addressing key questions such as:
- How do we discern when struggles are spiritual, psychological, or medical?
- Can supernatural faith and medical psychiatry coexist?
- What role does deliverance ministry play in mental health treatment?
A Balanced Approach to Healing
With nearly 15 years as a Consultant Psychiatrist in Scotland, Dr. Waller offers a thoughtful and biblically grounded approach to:
- The reality of mental illness and why acknowledging it is essential for healing.
- The importance of integrating professional mental health care with spiritual support.
- How churches and faith communities can support mental well-being responsibly.
Listen Now: A Conversation for Those Seeking Clarity
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in integrating faith with professional mental health practices, whether you are a Christian leader, mental health professional, or someone walking through personal struggles.
- Learn more at the Mind and Soul Foundation
- Explore the work of Peter and Caleb Stream
- Subscribe to Sunburnt Souls for more deep and relevant conversations.
- Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred platform.
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