What a Girl Wants: Elyse Dehlbom

I love What a Girl Wants. Not only does it allow us to take an extra day off, which let's be honest, I need as many days off as I can get, but it allows us to get to better know the people that are also in this franchise. And this week we have a very special episode for you. It is a lease del Bomb. She was on Colts and season Uh. She, as Jared has so eloquently put it, was in the running for the Bachelorurette. I still think

she might be at some point later on. She's probably gonna grace her screens again on Paradise at some point in her lifetime, hopefully. But she's fantastic. She has a great guest this week as well. Uh this week on What a Girl Wants is a lease be sure to stay tuned. What a Girl Wants help my second dating spinoff, and then I have already podcast. Thanks so much to Dan and Jared for having me again. I'm so excited to be taking over this episode of What a Girl Wants.

And you may know me from The Bachelor as the self proclaimed cougar. So today I want to talk about what it's really like dating in your thirties. There's certainly some obstacles that come along with it. For instance, I honestly do not know how to approach some of the subjects that I would never have thought to even talk about when I was in my twenties, such as divorce, kids, all of these things that quite frankly, I never would have even thought to bring up when I started dating

someone um in my younger years. So now I'm trying to navigate how to approach these subjects in a way that doesn't absolutely terrify men off. And today I'm so excited that we're going to have a guest on that might be able to help us. But um, specifically for me, I've noticed that when you're dating in your thirties. Not only is there this societal standpoint of you should be married and you should already have kids, but for those of us that decided to focus on career or maybe

we just haven't found that person yet. UM, when you're having initial date conversations, you have to get to those deal breaker points a lot quicker of do you want want more kids if they already have them? Or do you want kids in general? Have you been divorced? What's the relationship like with their ex? All of these things are so difficult to figure out how to properly navigate without, like I said, completely terrifying the eye off, as if you're just in a rush to walk down the aisle.

Have you um dated anyone with kids or that's been divorced, And what was that like having those conversations with them? You know, I actually most of my serious relationships have been with people that have children, and I think that gives me a little bit of perspective of being on the other side of it. They were um, significantly older than me, had gone through divorce, had kids, and it

was it was a bit of a struggle. I loved the children, absolutely loved them, but it's difficult to navigate those relationships when you know it's just not you and that person, you're also in a relationship with the X because they are then you know, the mom of the relationship and trying to figure out how you fall into

line with that. UM. So I think that's been beneficial to me having those experiences in my twenties, but now doing it from a position of, hey, maybe I'm in a place where I'm thinking about having kids or um. You know, like I said, the biological standpoint of all right, we need to get to these conversations a little quicker because I don't want to invest the time and emotion into a relationship if I don't know that we are at least on the same page of what our future

goals are regarding those topics. Yeah, like what are some of those I guess deal breakers? Um that you come to learn our deal breakers as you get older. Well my list has certainly expanded since I've gotten older, having gone through some not so great relationships. But you know, for me, as someone who is and I'll be honest, I'm not sure if I want children. I loved the experience of kind of being that um standing mom, But

because I'm unsure of it. I want to have someone that is open to the possibility that we can if I found the right partner, we can have that dialogue of Okay, we're we're ready to expand not just us as a couple, and maybe start a family. And I don't know if I would be willing to be in a relationship with someone that maybe is coming from a divorce where they've already gone through those life experiences of having children and feel like, Okay, I've been there, done that.

I'm happy to raise the children I have and don't want to bring anybody else into the mix. Um. Those are conversations that are really really difficult and and sensitive to but also have to be broached UM kind of early on, because again, I don't want to invest the time or energy into someone that doesn't want the same things as me. Yeah. I a couple of years ago I dated someone with UM that was divorced. I'm twenty three. Excuse me, I'm twenty three, and I was like twenty one.

And I look back now, and I mean it was only two years ago, but I was like, what was I thinking? But something I thought was like very difficult? Was UM not thinking about like, wow, they've already had those first um and like I won't be the first for some of those things. Do you think that that's something difficult that you had to like get I guess

get over or like move on from knowing that? And do you think that in future relationships, like a future relationship, you would want to have those first experiences with them? To me, and I completely agree with you because I was twenty three when I didd Um the first guy that had children, And I have to say it was tough because I was so used to relationships where you are there you know, maybe work or family come first, but otherwise you're their first priority. And when you're dating

people that have children, you're not. And so that comes with a little bit of an ego struggle too of

navigating that. But also where you're talking about first, that was a challenge because I was thinking, Okay, this in that significant age gap, he might be kind of over and done with this experience and have already raised kids and changed diapers and we won't potentially have that experience together, which was so important to me just for myself that that maybe I wanted to have those first to have the morning where you're videotaping kids on on Christmas morning,

taking apart their gifts, and trying to understand how I could get over not potentially having that experience, but fully immersing myself in the fact that he had wonderful children and being trying to figure out my role a little bit, figure out my role as I might not be used to this situation. I might have my own, maybe ego or just nostalgia driven ideas of what I wanted for my future, but learning how to adapt it to the current situation of the current relationship I was in. And

I think it is a struggle. But the biggest takeaway I have from someone who's done this a couple of times is it is so so incredibly fulfilling, whether the children are not biologically yours or not, to be able to take part and have the trust and respect from not only the person you're with but their past partner

to be allowed into those situations. And I'll tell you what you go through, Like I said one Christmas of watching kids open presence in it definitely changes your perspective a little bit of feeling like this is family, and family comes in all different shapes and sizes, but it's getting over what you had is this ideal for your own personal life, and especially when I was twenty three, I'm gonna do this and this and this at this age, and and just realizing that life is is crazy and

takes you in ways that you didn't expect and just being open to your situation might look a little different, but the feelings are still the same, and they're still so much joy in those those moments that Um, so you said that, Uh, it's been interesting to navigate the biological conversations while dating. Can you give us a little more detail on that, what that looks like and maybe some reactions you had. Yeah, absolutely, I think it's it's no secret, right we've all heard that good old stair

type of like, oh the clock is ticking. Whether that's coming from um, just your own perception of what's going on in the world and society's ideals of where you should be at and especially in your thirties, but also I'll be honest, we have those family members that tell us to like, Okay, I want grandkids. What's happening like at this point, you don't even have to get married, Just give me a grand baby. Um, it's it's really tough trying to figure out what you want versus what

you think is expected of you. But then once you really narrow it down to like I said, for me, I'm not sure if having my own biological children is a huge priority in my life, but I want someone to be open to it. So trying to have those conversations right away in a relationship is so incredibly awkward, and I still am trying to figure out how to have those conversations in a way that doesn't seem like, hey, excuse me, sir. You know pounding on your wristwatch clock

is ticking. I know we've been here for forty five minutes. But do what kids? Do you want to get married? Do you want children? What is your future goals and aspirations? I mean that can come on a bit strong. So just I'm I'm glad that I'm on this podcast, and I might not be the one to particularly talk about because I'm still trying to navigate how to have those conversations, UM in a way that doesn't make someone go running for the hills. Yeah, well, luckily we're gonna have an

expert on later and maybe they can with that. UM. So you were considered the cougar. But you said that you've been UM dating a lot older, So have you still been dating younger? What is that looking like? Are you? Do you have a preference in uh in men and

like age that I was that self proclaimed cougar. I knew it was going to be a joke going into Colton season that he was significantly younger and less experienced than I was in a lot of ways, so I figured if I made the joke first, nobody else could. But since the show, and I will give them credit, it kind of opened my eyes because, like you said, I haven't dated anyone younger than me ever, and I think because I had gone through a lot um in my early twenties, I felt like I connected to people

that were UM a little older than I am. I have to say since the show, I've had some flour takeeations with men that are younger than me. But I still think UM as much as I understand that every relationship looks different for me, I hate to say it, but I think I'm still looking for someone my age or a little bit older. UM. Maybe not the great age gaps that I dated in my twenties, having a thirteen year age gap I mean, wow, that's a lot. Yeah,

that's a lot. Yeah. But I think now I'm just looking for someone that maybe it'sn't so much focused on age, but has similar experiences whether it comes to dating or just life experiences where we're on the same um, in the same place as far as what we're looking for and in our focus on that and priorities around it help. I second dating, we how do you reach only on with Dean and Jared? And you said that during quarantine you dated someone, but ultimately you realize that if you

weren't in quarantine, it probably wouldn't have happened. Um. And they after you got off, they were so curious and they were like, who is it? And they felt like, uh, it was someone possibly from the franchise? Was it? It was not someone from the Bachelor. Um, it was someone that maybe people would recognize. But here's my thoughts on being public and social media and all that good stuff.

I've already shared way more about my life on television than I ever anticipated, and why I think it's great to celebrate love and relationships until I'm in a committed monogamous relationship with someone. Um, where I think, all right, we're in a good place. I have no desire to share that with the world because I'm sure anyone who follows anyone from this franchise you see a lot of critiques and criticisms, and when you start sharing your relationship,

you're also opening it up to those same critiques. And I think you need to be in a really strong place in your relationship, at least for me personally, before I would ever share that. But no, he was not from The Bachelor. Um, But I just made a decision that until I'm in a committed relationship, I'm not going to divulge their privacy and open them up to those same criticisms that we receive. Relationships are hard enough without social media's opinion on on your partner, right, is there?

If there's like one thing that you took away from your season on The Bachelor, like, what would you say that that was? It was probably something I didn't anticipate taking away. I kind of went into it thinking like this is the world's craziest blind date, and what I took from it is we all want love, right, And how much of my time have I really focused to

the pursuit of that I was in? Like I said, pretty serious relationships in my early twenties, but then right before my thirtieth birthday, went through a breakup and decided, Okay, I've given my time, my money, my attention, my everything to these relationships, and now I want to focus on

me and be quote unquote selfish. And it was kind of alarming to me when I was on the Bachelor of how little time I was actually prioritizing for what I felt like it's a huge priority of my life, which is finding a partner and trying to in my normal life kind of navigate those priorities. I didn't do very well. I was focused on work and business and things of that nature. So my biggest takeaway was when you are really wanting something in your life, you have

to set aside the time to dedicate to it. Because we all say we want love and to find that, you know, happily ever after, if you will. But so much of our life is full of distractions and things that we have to get done in our relationships with family and friends, that it really doesn't afford a whole lot of time unless you carve it out purposefully to

finding your person. Do you is there anyone like in your family or friends that are kind of like a model for you, or something that or someone that you like, like your family's relationships like is that something that you value and like seek in a future partnership as well? One hundred percent I think in my life a huge

turning point for me. Um. I talked a little bit about it on when I was on the Bachelor, but when my sister got sick, I found just this huge, huge takeaway from that experience was not only you know, grief and all of those things, but watching my dad and how he interacted with my mom during that time,

and how her husband dealt with her. It took away just the desire to date someone who was, you know, the good looking guy at the gym, to really wanting a partner in life because I had such strong male examples of what that looks like. Of when excuse my language, but when ship hits the fan and things are just at their absolute worst, that not one of the men that I saw. My dad her husband complained once and it was immediately taking care and nurturing their partner, taking

away any ego. UM obviously experiencing their own feelings around it, but there was never a doubt of if those men were going to stand up for their partner and be there. And I realized in that moment watching that that I had dated a lot of men who I would question if they would stick around in those very difficult times. It's easy when things are, you know, honeymoon phase and and it's light and area and it's candles and romance.

But when life hands you a really difficult card, you want a person that is without question going to show up for you, because I know for myself I would do the same, but I had not seen it so tangibly until I watched how they dealt with what was a horrific time in our family history. And I just can't applaud them enough and honestly thanked them enough for that lesson that came from such an awful experience, but definitely taught me what to look for in the future

when I'm entering relationships. That's huge, and I can relate to that because my mom recudainly passed away and um no, but I can relate to that grief and that that grief is so substantial and it's like a a level of trauma that like you don't even have words to describe. So the fact that you had men to be that example of like what union looks like. I mean, that's incredible, and like I can imagine that that UM is like a standard that is like non negotiable at this point

for you. No, I mean we talked about deal breakers early on in this episode, but I think that is the hugest part is My takeaway from that experience is truthfully, you want a partner. Yes, it's nice to hear all these stereotypical like I want a best friend in romance and you know, we watched the Notebook and think that

that's how life should be. But in reality, I want someone that even in the most difficult times of our life, I will never have to question if they're going to be by my side trying to navigate through those And that is something that I have certainly said a standard

for because I've seen that in the past. And I'm not, you know, trying to inflate my own ego when I've said this, but in the past relationships I've had, I've been that partner and have very rarely gotten that in return when something in my life was a struggle it um, I didn't have that partner that would stand beside me through it. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because you've been vocal about UM, difficult things that

you've been through in past relationships. UM. Do you feel that, um, it's been difficult to get into to be present in like healthy relationships or are you healed from those past traumas? How does that play a role in navigating the future relationships? You know, I wish that it didn't play as much of a role as it did. Um. I think we have this idea of Okay, it happened to get over at movement on? You don't that is not something that

you move on from. There's going to be things that trigger I mean just silly things that you would never have anticipated that trigger certain painful moments in your life, and especially when you've gone through an abusive relationship like I've shared it is. It's something that I would like to believe isn't an obstacle in future dating relationships, but

it absolutely is. There's times where maybe I'll get into an argument, which we all are going to argue in relationships, but maybe certain words or how it's delivered certainly bring me back. And that's something that isn't the responsibility of your partner because they didn't do anything wrong. You can't take, you know, all of your baggage and blame it on

the next person. It's something that I will have to personally take accountability of, Hey, this is what happened to me in this moment, even though you are not the one that did this to me, it's triggering something from my past. So either take a break and come back to the situation um or just the acknowledgement of like, hey, I'm struggling right now, and that's a really vulnerable place

to put yourself in. But I think it's so important because, like I said, we have this idea that you just get over things and move on and you know, be a bass girl, bass babe, whatever they say. But that's just not true. We all have gone through things in our lives and that have affected us and will continue to affect us in ways, like I said, that are unexpected. But it's just taking accountability for this is not that

person's fault that I'm in a relationship with. Now. I need to own how I'm feeling in this moment and not make it about them. Wow. I needed to hear that because and I'll share later on my story, but I feel like I'm in that right now. UM. Not UM not being able to let go of past traumas and carry those into future relationships and be president then UM.

So I'm excited to hear what our expert has to say and what you have to say, and maybe I can get some guidance because I'm sucking at dating and this is the spin off of UM, What a Girl Wants? So UM, on a lighter note, what are some embarrassing moments you've had dating? And UM, maybe maybe that you did or that the guy did embarrassing moments. I mean, how long is this podcast I have? I think I have to say probably, And this was not necessarily anything

that I did. But trying to date after the show has been quite interesting, especially with men. And because I don't, you know, I'm not like Hi and Meleese, I'm from The Bachelor, do you know? Me? Hi, That's not how I approached things. But UM, I will never forget the first date I went on after the show, and I believe it was still airing at the time. I went out with a guy. I cannot seeing this guy's praises loud enough, but we wanted to keep it casual and

we took his dog too. I think it was a rugby match, which I had never been to before, and he had no idea. I was on the show and all of a sudden people come up and you know, oh my gosh, can we take a picture. And the look on this guy's face was like, who the heck am I on this date with I'm just at you know, college rugby game, And it was very flattering that, you know,

people wanted to do pictures and stuff. But because I hadn't been upfront about being on a show, I learned very quickly that maybe you have to divulge that information. Because he stood there like I just can't describe it.

He was massively uncomfortable and so incredibly confused. So that has been one interesting thing that you have to navigate if you're ever on one of these shows of how to also be like, hey, um, it doesn't define my life, but I was on a reality TV show and potentially people are gonna I think that we're in a relationship, talk about it online and I hope you're okay with that. Have you had some guys that are like, heck, no, I'm not doing this, or has everyone just kind of

been like, Okay, I mean whatever, it's fine. I think for most they've taken it in stride, but it's certainly bizarre. I've never had any desire to be in the public eyes and makeup artists and very comfortable behind camera, so for me, it's been weird. So I cannot imagine what it feels like to be on the other side of like, Hey, we're just, you know, going out for a lunch date, and why are these people coming up and and saying hello as if they know her? And she doesn't have

any clear idea who these people are. Especially on a show like The Bachelor, people have a pretty clear understanding of maybe their perception of who you are and your life history. So you almost become like friends that have never met, and so there's a bond there that it's it's hard to explain that to someone who has maybe never watched the show or been through a similar experience.

I think that's why so many Bachelor of people end up dating each other, because you don't have to have that awkward conversation of hey, if we go on a date, people might come up and chat with us, and and for them how to navigate that as well, right, because you're you were both in it, you're both currently in it, so that seems a lot easier to navigate. Well, we clearly have no idea how to navigate this, and I'm

still figuring it out. So we're going to have after this break a man that I he doesn't know this yet, but man, I've come to love and he is a therapist and maybe he can give us some pointers of

how to have these difficult conversations and be better in relationships. Alright, guys, we are back with what a girl wants and have I'm fan girl in a little bit because we have Dr Kirkanda, who has an amazing podcast and YouTube channel that as someone that was on The Bachelorette, I found because he reacts to reality TV shows and as the therapist and professor, has a different perspective than most of the audience. So Mr Dr kir Conda, I'm so happy

to have you, Thanks for having me. Absolutely. We talked a little bit earlier about navigating in dating in your thirties, but something that really struck me when watching your videos was not so much the conversation around past traumas and how they affect your current relationships. Although we can certainly

talk about that as well. But I have referred a few of your videos too, just a boatload of my friends, because you talk about when you're approaching difficult times in a relationship, how to navigate that from a place of or approach it from a place of the baseline emotions of either fear or hurt, which is a very vulnerable

and uncomfortable thing to do. And I just want to kind of pick your brain a little bit today and ask why approaching conflicts in relationship from those baselines of either hurt or anger is so important to having a much better outcome and conflicts arise in a relationship. Sure, well, the first thing I'll say is that no one is very good at this. I've never known anyone, including myself, who even when they study it for twenty five years

and preach it all day long, such as myself. I probably get it right, I don't know of the time, and good then I have a little grace in my failures. It's just one of those things. It's an instinct, of course, when we're afraid, and when we're hurt, we're perhaps flooded, we're confused, we're protecting ourselves. It affects the way we think are are the way we perceive things, and so

I just want to say that up front. But the important thing that I think is I think rather intuitive when I put it this way to people, which is that we all evolved to connect with other people close to us. We have tremendous needs for it. Hatchment. All you have to do is look at other primates and see their behavior during the day at the zoo or on you know, public television or documentary. David Edinburgh, This

is this sort of thing. There's a tremendous amount of togetherness that primates will exhibit, a soothing, grooming communication, helping each other out. Um literally just being next to each other and we're the same kind of makes total sense when you think about our behavior and our needs and how important relationships are to us, particularly romantic relationships, that without those attachments and those attachment needs being met, then

we have feelings and the feelings motivate us. And I feel like that's another important point that it again makes a lot of intuitive sense when I explain it this way to me anyway, which is that when we feel pain, you know, you put your hand on a hot plate and you feel pain, it's an emotion, it's hurt, and you pull your hand away from the hot plate because

the feeling motivates you to do something. If you didn't have an emotion, you just let your hand burn in the same In the same way that when you're trying to get your your attachment needs met, or you're in a romantic or you're dating, say six months in and the person doesn't text you back right away, it hurts your feelings. You feel hurt, and that's a motivation. It

motivates you to do something. It's a natural response. The emotion is alerting you to the possibility that maybe this person is moving away from you, and maybe this person is finding someone else to be with, or maybe this person is displeased with you in some way, and and start going into the what ifs. Well that that's the result of the emotion. The emotion is the beginning of it. In the same way that pain from the hot plate. The emotion is is pain. It's a pain response and

a worry response of anxiety and a pain response. Then, because we're advanced creatures, so to speak, we there's pros and cons of that. We end up trying to uh figure out what to do with that emotion, and because we have so much societal pressure is on us to seem quote unquote strong and above our sort of primary emotions, we will either try to suppress that emotion or we will transform it into anger. That's usually the two different pathways.

While either to get angry and say you are a neglectful person for not texting me back, or where were you today when you didn't text me back, which is a transformation of the original pain in the anger which is not an accurate communication of how you felt about it, or suppression I'm being too needy. Uh, there's something wrong with me. You know. If I do be too pushy, he's going to push me away or something like that. Instead of just saying so you know, I don't know

if this is my fault to your fault. Maybe it's my fault. But when I text you today and you didn't get back to me, I'm sure you're busy, and I'm sure you know it's not a big deal, but I just want to let you know that it really it's sort of hurt. On a scale from one to ten, it was like a three. It wasn't that much hurt, but it was a little bit of hurt, and instead of suppressing that or transforming that into anger or starting to have a lot of thoughts about like, what's going

on with him? Is he cheating on me? Um, I just thought I'd just tell you that it's sort of hurt. Then gives the other person to rise the occasion and now they can see, oh, they're not accusing me of anything, they're not pulling away, They're giving me a chance to rectify the situation. And you'd just be like, oh, one, uh, you know, I'm not really into texting during the day too. I didn't know that you were hurt by that. I

don't want you to be hurt by that. So maybe I'll adjust my texting you know, procedure policy such that I won't hurt you, or or maybe if you text me around this time, I'll get back to you. People care, you know, they want to help. It's an instinct that we all have when when someone trips on the sidewalk

and they're genuinely hurt. You know, humans run to that aid or at least internally, you just oh, you cringe, and you want to help that person, particularly people that are close to us, and so if we can tell people those primary emotions, it gives the other person a chance to actually meet our needs. Do you think that? And I mean, I just can't tell you enough how many people I've sent this conversation and videos of yours too, because it hit me so close to and resonated with

me of how I've dealt with with relationships in the past. Um, because I've come out of abusive relationships before, I feel like I often go into that submissive where I don't tell people how I feel right away. I unfortunately just kind of let it linger and then becomes like my own resentments that they're probably not even aware of or

how to change. But when you go into a conflict in a relationship and you talk from a place of this hurt me or this I'm angry and here's why, do you find that it also helps the other person not be defensive so that the conversation doesn't escalate. We've all had, right, We've all had arguments where you're like,

what are we even arguing about? And I think a lot of that comes from when you approach things with anger, or like myself, sometimes build a little bit of resentment because you're not voicing you those emotions that it puts them on the defense. So putting immediately those emotions of I'm hurt and I'm going to take ownership over that. But here's why I'm hurt and how you could maybe do something to make me feel better, it takes away

the need for things to escalate. Do you find that yes? Uh, it's nuanced though, because even when you're doing things perfectly, and as a therapist I help a lot of people do this, both in couples therapy and into chemotherapy, and even when you do everything perfect, the person receives so, you know, going back to our example, the woman says, Hey, you know, I'm not blaming you. It's not your faults. I have traumas in my past, so you know, if you could really help me out by sort of validating

my feelings, you're just understanding. You don't have to just your behavior. But I just want you to know that when I texted you today and you didn't get back to me right of way, it threw me into a panic and it kind of hurts my feelings. And it's not your fault. It's it's it's totally on me. I

own those feelings. Um, So you could, you could do it that way, and given his traumas he could, he could become defensive regardless because he has been accused of being withdrawing or neglecting or a bad boyfriend before, and he just projects that onto the situation even though it's

not really applicable. And so this is that's why a couples therapy is so important, because when I'm talking to individual clients about what to do, sometimes they do everything perfect, they go home and the other person it doesn't know what's happening because it seems so weird. You know, It's like, well, surely behind that veil of niceness is accusation and anger

and hostility. So so that's why a couple of therapy is so important because then I can actually go to the guy and say like, okay, wait a second, you seem to be reacting against something, you know, what's going on? What did you hear her say? And He'll be like, well, she's angry at me. And I'll be like, well, let's go back, let's listen to what she said, and so that you can help him to really here. And you know, it's a brand new way of thinking of it. You know,

when I discovered it years ago. It just completely transformed my life. And I guess I dipped into it randomly at times, But once I understood attachment, and I really appreciated just how attachment oriented we are and how really, on a minute by minute basis, we're having these little hurts and little fears, and uh, it really just helped me to understand that it's so important to do this.

But it makes sense that most people just don't know what's happening, and it takes some education and some experience and trial and error to to really figure it out. Well, especially like you said earlier, we're kind of trained in our society to think, you know, buck up, get over it, you know, let it go, move on when you do go through those hurts, So it's hard to then, ah, try to separate what you're being taught is, you know, get over it, move on, and hey, I'm not going

to get over this experience. It hurts me deeply. But how to make sure that it's not something that turns into a problem in future relationship when the part you maybe have a really great partner and they're not the one that is causing that pain, it's from somewhere else. So that has been a real battle for me of um as I go into relationships trying to to not be so reactive to something that they didn't that they didn't know that they did. Yeah, and I want to

rephrase that the reactiveness is normal. We can't change our primary emotions of fear and hurt. We can't change that. It's just going to happen the same way I can't change how much it hurts when I have my hand on a hot plate. It's gonna hurt, and that that reactivity is going to be there. It's what we do

with it, and it's easier said than done. In my work with people, sometimes often we bump up against relational traumas that they have in their past that cause as them to be in the moment at the very least very distrustful of the other person that the other person actually does care, because you have to trust the other person. If you're gonna say you hurt my feelings, you have to trust that the other person is to be that vulnerable.

You have to be like almost sure that that person is going to respond well, that they're going to hold your feelings, that they're going to hear you, they're going to care. They're going to communicate their care. They're not gonna reject you because it it's a double hurt to be vulnerable about something you heard about and then to

be rejected on that level. Well, we have on the line Miss Becky, who is a producer from this show, and I don't know her story, but we want to chat with her a little bit and maybe you can give some insight onto what she is navigating in her current dating situation. Okay, before we go into this, I just want I didn't know we were going to do this, but I can't provide any professional advice over podcasting. So

I'll be wording it. You can ask whatever you want to, that's totally fine, but I'll be wording it in a way that will be ethical to my license. We're not anticipating that you're giving a therapy session, but maybe we'll just hear her side and maybe I can relate to it. She's touched on, maybe she's gone through similar experiences me and you can give us some pointers in how to

navigate it. So um Dean and Jared of the host of the Help by Second Dating podcast, They recently have me on for an interview and long story short, there was a guy that heard my interview. UM. He reached out to me and we have been talking for coming up on two months now. And he lives in Michigan. I live in Los Angeles and UH he actually flew in to meet me this weekend. UM, and he is an incredible man like he is definitely different than anyone

I've ever dated. I've come out of very abusive, in toxic relationships UM, and I've just overall have never really had a good relationship with men UM from just several traumas UM throughout my life and I found myself dating the same kinds of guys, the same type prior to this guy, and UM, he has just been I've been very We've been very vulnerable with each other, which has been very difficult for me, UM and I I'm really struggling to be present in UM allowing him to pursue

me and be there for me and UH this weekend while he was here, there were a lot of actual like tears, like really difficult moments UM where I've just been feeling like UM unworthy and unqualified of love and accepting UM. Someone who is so patient, is so kind and is so open to listening um to everything that

I've been through and just wanting to be there. How have you Dr Kirk like, how do you encourage um, you know, your clients and people that you talked to to not come up from a place of fear again in a place of just pain and trauma and lead with love and be present in those moments. That's a great question, um, and I applaud you for your vulnerability. You're modeling for a lot of listeners how to acknowledge

your own issues. Everyone has issues at least in one shape, way, shape or form, and so you know, kudos to you for having the strength and breaking the mold of the

American individualism and quote quote unquote strength. Um. So uh Again, I don't know you particularly, but the thing that I think about is what I sometimes will talk about a schema therapy, and this the research looked into how people see the world in ways that get in their way and how the way they see the world was developed when they were young, and they are eighteen different schemas or ways of seeing the world that are unhelped full

to their needs. And one of the ways that are developed early in life is this schema of I'm not worthy of love that was developed because one was treated that way at a young age one, two, three, four or five years old. You're treated in a way that indicates that you're not worthy of love, you're not getting enough love or an attention. And it might even be explicitly told to some kids, the reason why I'm not hanging out with you is because you're a bad girl

or something. Whatever. The messages it could be explicit or implicit, and oftentimes kids will just come to these conclusions in a very understandable but tragic way, and then we just retain that way of seeing the world as we get older. And it is an assumption that is deep. It's not just a cognitive idea. As you talk about it, you reflect on that assumption and you seem to be questioning it.

You seem to be like, I don't know why I I see it this way, but it's deep in my in my soul, and the idea is I always sort of try to there's a there's literally four plus theories of psychotherapy, and so I try to melt all of it down to two ideas, which is one awareness and to healing. So one is awareness and just building that awareness for people that suffer from this schema is just

becoming aware of the whole thing. Becoming aware of the schema, becoming aware of when you're in this situation and you're receiving love and you're starting to have both positive feelings and negative feelings, you look at your feelings and you try to figure out, like, which which is rational here? You know, similar to you really want to go bungee jumping and you get to the edge of before you jump,

and you have a tremendous amount of fear. Well, that's kind of the point, right, and your body doesn't want to jump off, but your mind is saying everything is fine, you know, everything's gonna be okay, but your body is like no, no, no. So so evaluating the emotion. Whereas if you didn't have a bungee cord tied to your feet and you were standing on the edge of a cliff, the fear would be rational. And so you have to have the ability to look at your feelings and say

which is rational here and which is helpful? And that takes a lot of time, you know, it takes a lot of investigation. But that can only goes so far because our emotions can be really overwhelming at times. Uh. Then the next part is more the long term goal,

which is to heal from our relational traumas. So for people with schemas that indicate that they're not worthy of love, they have to experience love and attachment in a way that indicates that they are worthy of love and that people can be trusted, and that can only be done through experiences. You have to do it over and over again. The analogy to the bunch you jumping, I guess is that the only way to be able to jump a

bungee jump without any fear is to do it. You know, dozens of times just me thinking about bungee jumping makes my hands wet by the way. Um, so I would need to bungee jump I don't know how many times before I would just be able to do it and not have fear as I did it. So so my cognitive understanding of the rationality of the fear only goes

so far. Um, I just have to through repetition, have to get my body to habituate to the scary situations such that my body learns this is okay, you can trust it, And so you need to People need to engineer as many secure relationships as they can, and if it's it's hard when you have these worries that are

alerting you of just like danger, danger, danger. And this is where therapy comes in therapy is you know, therapists know, or they should know what to do in these situations such that the therapist client relationship becomes a very secure

relationship for that person. And then as the person experiences that relationships and says, oh, I guess I can trust other people then and that's a much more safe environment, right because it's a professional and they know what they're doing and it's not very threatening to the therapist to engage in a relationship with a client. And then that learning in your body can be translated to relationships outside of the therapy office. I don't know if that answers

your question. It does absolutely, And I think that I m am struggling being the gatekeeper of my mind and be what it start flooding in and UM feeling very out of control. Are there any like UM coping mechanisms that you you share with clients to kind of reel it back in and UM feel well. Getting back to what I was talking about before is to value your

emotional reactivity. It's there's this notion of whenever I hear the word coping, I don't know what you're exactly asking, but a lot of people mean, how do I get rid of these feelings? And that's not possible. So and it's a notion that is given to us by society that is possible, that you know, strong mature people have total control over their emotions. They can get rid of them. And it's like, no, you can't. In the same way I can't get rid of my pain as I'm holding

my hand on a hot plate, I can't. I'm I'm an animal. I'm not a robot. I can't delete the file. It just happens. I have a physical emotional reactivity. And to deny that is like extremely self destructive. And so many people do that, particularly men, by the way, but anyway, so so because we're taught to um it's the only way to be a man in a lot of ways, but or just anger anyway. The point is is that

value your emotions. So you're having fear, you have tremendous fear. Okay, now to transform that into I'm gonna push him away or thus he is not trustworthy, or I need to run, or I need to drink or I need to smoke pot l right, whatever it is, that's that's the attempt to get rid of the emotion, to just live in the emotion of just like, by the way, right now, I am terrified. I don't know what to do with that. But I am. I am utterly mortified and terrified what's

happening right now? And I don't know what to do with it? Can can can people listen to me? Can you listen to me? Can? Can? Can everyone help me with my fear? And then you know, people come to you and help you and listen to you, and then you're still a raid. But it doesn't it doesn't have to be transformed into some other thing like anger or pushing away or there's something wrong with me. Um. These kinds of things are results of shame upon our own fears.

It's you're I don't know, it sounded like you just started dating this guy. You should be afraid. Who knows who what this guy is? I mean that, you know, people often say this like how do I trust you know to date? And I'm like, why would you trust people you're dating? You don't know? This person could be the next serial killer. You really just don't know. I'm not saying be paranoid and assume, but just it. It

lives in that fear. It's okay and it's normal. It indicates that your body knows that you're in a dangerous situation because you are, and that's and just be okay with that. In the same way that you're standing on the edge with you know, bungee cord tight and you're just like, I'm afraid. It's okay. You know, if you weren't afraid, there'd be something wrong with you. So get support, talk about it, tell the partner, have them do what they can. It's not going to take it away. That's

all right, It's okay to be afraid. I think, UM, my takeaway from what you said was these metaphors of bungee jumping in the hot plates are so relatable because these are things that you just learned with time, and Becky and I are coming from totally different standpoints of me being thirty three, she's twenty three, and I just wanted to validate that it is amazing that you're being so vulnerable, but also that um from someone that's a little bit older and has gone through similar experiences as

you that it really it's really amazing when you open yourself up to the opportunity of letting people show up for you. And like he said, with that bungee chord, it's a little less scary than the next time you jump when you've had people that might not have been your for a partner but just choose to show up when when they can, and it just takes time. And I oh, I'm just so happy that you came on today, Mr Doctor Kirkonda, Psychology and Seattle. I hope everyone watches

your videos. I hope you continue to cover this season of The Bad Strett because I'll give you a little insider scoop. It's going to be a good one. You might have a lot to unpack for everyone. But I just thank you for taking the time out of your day to help us navigate our dating woes and give us some perspective on things. All right, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. All Right, Well, we talked with Dr Kirkanda, and I think he gave us some so

some pretty heavy things to think about. Um. What I really love from his podcast is how much he talks about how important therapy is and I've to my past relationships, struggles that I've gone through, and today you're talking about a current struggle you're going through that is again not reflective of the person that you're with, he sounds amazing, but struggles that you carry on from previous interactions, whether romantic or not. And I just am so thankful he

was on. But also I think we can all take away from his talking that we don't have to have this idea we have to get over things, quote unquote, that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to say, all right, I am not dealing with this. Well, whether you can't have a conversation like he talked about from the baseline of these are my emotions and you're in a position where you don't feel that you're safe enough

to be vulnerable with whoever you're talking to. UM and come from a place of just the pure emotion and taking ownership of that is so incredibly difficult, But I think it's something that we all could benefit from UM instead of just being reacting, taking a pause and trying to figure out where that reaction is coming from. So

I'm so thankful he came on. I think it ties back into even having those questions answered about how to navigate talking about deal breakers and kids and all these things and divorce and dating in your thirties and these conversations that what I took away from his conversation was that we need to just allow ourselves to be vulnerable enough, and if that person doesn't respond to the questions and

the way we want, that that's okay. At least you got the information that you needed and you allowed yourself to be vulnerable, and like you said, the next time you jump off the bungee cord, it will be a little bit easier. And I don't know, I'm just I'm taking a lot away um from our conversation today and maybe how to interact in future relationships, how to approach

subjects that aren't easy. And I think the biggest takeaway is that it is just okay to be vulnerable and sit in your emotions and allow someone to show up for you. Thank you so much for coming on this week.

At least, I think this was so informational. It gave me so much perspective, um, someone who um from someone who has gone through things that I've gone through, and I know that listeners will be able to relate to a lot of things that were discussed, and um and gaining some wisdom from this and maybe um realize what a girl really wants and me from this podcast, I

certainly hope. So I cannot thank Dean and Jared enough for letting me take over and for you allowing me to kind of share and give my insight on your story but also open up on my own story. And I mean, hell, we all suck at dating, right, but at least we now know how to maybe approach it with a little patience and grace with ourselves.