Slow Loving

world and what a glorious world it is. And I'm gonna say we've talked about it before on this podcast, but I know no one cares about it. No one else besides the person that's involved cares about it. But fantasy football. Let's talk about fantasy football for a second. Yeah, we're gonna do this whole podcast football. Actually, So if you guys were listening to Dating, No, Jared, we don't want to. We don't want them to close out of

the podcaster. For the first time in my life, I am in Jared's fantasy football How this is my fantasy football league. All of a sudden, Tanner is the one that put this thing together. Yeah, he's your best friend. And on top of that, I I am playing Jared this weekend fantasy football and we don't know who's gonna win. Jared's projected to beat my butt by at least like thirty points, and I don't think projections were well, projections

are worth. I know that we we we briefly text messaged about this, but we do need to have some sort of some sort of penalty for the loser. Let's let's say you lose by ten points. I need you to do something for our audience. Well, I say both humility, humiliating and hilarious. This is what I think I think everybody should either. I think people should d m us on help I suck at dating and tell us what the punishment should be. So Dean and I will have a side bet right now we're playing each other in

fantasy football. The loser will be punished, and the punishment will be dictated by the suck army themselves. So d m us on help I suck a dating instagram. I will screenshot it so it's all valid and post on there, and whichever punishment has the most votes. Uh like I'll figure out a way. If there's like, if there's no more than one punishment that's you know, somebody listed, then I'll post on on social media, and whichever punishment gets

most votes Dean and I will have to do. Also, Dean and I just executed a trade in phantasy football, so there's a lot of important stuff happened. Of course I accepted it. Yeah, it was the Patriots defense. Yeah, congratulations. I'm glad you're happy. I feel like I got the better end of the trade. Anyway, moving on, so, yes, d m us help I suck at dating. Tell us

what the punishment should be. Dean and I are playing each other in fantasy football, and of course we will announce which what punishment we're doing on next week's episode, and then we'll figure out how best to broadcast that to You are wonderful listeners that we love so much. But back to the dating world, because that's what we're all about. Dean, you were in the mall Deves right now with your girlfriend slash wife Kaylin. Tell us how

that's going. Because if you guys followed Dean on on social media, you have seen literally the most beautiful place on earth, the Maldives. How's the vacation going. Well, Maldives is definitely the most beautiful place on Earth. Yeah, it was definitely a spur of the moment situation that arose for us. It's funny because in both of our heads we were like, we shouldn't been traveling right now. Obviously

we're in the midst of COVID and everything that's going on. Um. But despite all that, we are and we feel safer than we have at any moment that we have in Los Angeles. I obviously I've been driving around through Colorado, up in Montana and over to Washington and all these other people places. But it's funny because there is such a stigma against travel internationally and and obviously there's only so many borders that are open to American citizens at

the moment. But even posting like our initial posted like hey we're going to the mall on Instagram, but was met with a lot of backlash, and like, I fully understand it. Like people obviously they are are are scared, they're concerned, they want everyone to stay healthy and and and they want everyone to be safe. Um. But it's so interesting because while we see that and we understand that uh. We and and myself specifically feel safer more

in Maldives than I have ever in Los Angeles. Like I've got tested just even board the plane got tested once I arrived. Again, everyone else here has been tested. It's like you could go to a store, a grocery store in Los Angeles and be surrounded by a hunter. People that I've never even been testament Alives. You have an idea where they've been. Everyone here has gone through

the whole procedure to to be deemed as safe. Um, it was a difficult choice, but Caitlin and I have always dream about coming to Mall Deaves and it is there of us have ever been. We're loving every second and we kind of understood that it's gonna go with some turmoil, but yeah, it's been. It's been pretty great. I mean, it looks like you're that villa that you guys are staying on that's literally in the water and

you have a water slide there. Holy Like, I've been lucky enough, you know to go to Italy and Greece and Ireland and travel around and man, those videos you're posting on like, Holy Christ, this is the greatest place on earth. We're getting some figures of like every time we like check in a new place and I'm like, hey, like how much how much money does this cost? If it was to be like in the middle of the high season, I think the bill that we stayed in and again I I don't know if this is true.

This is just what we were told, but it was like thirty thousand dollars per night. Oh my. And it's like when other what other opportunity were going to get to stay in? No other opportunities. As long as you guys are being safe, you're fine. Just keep wearing your mask, keep social distancing, keep washing your hands, keep getting tested. You guys are doing the right thing. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was definitely a difficult decision to make, but we guys are fine. We we wanted to make it and

we decided life happens fast. If you have this opportunity, you can do it safely. Right now. Take the opportunities because you just don't know how many more opportunities you'll have in life. And the thing is, there's no convincing someone that thinks it's unsafe that it is safe. Like everyone's every you know, if you think that I have

nothing that I'm gonna say, is going to convince you otherwise. So, um, it is what it is, and we are definitely doing a percent everything that we possibly can do to keep ourselves safe and keep the people around us safe, and we will continue to want to get back to the United States next week. But yeah, anyways, what's up with you, Jared? Give me an update on your life. Oh you know, I just want to uh go on to like a Halloween movie, horror night Hell yeah, we did free Forms

Halloween Road. It was fantastic because usually they have a set up where it's a Halloween house and you get to experience like the hocus Pocus House and Nightmare before Christmas and Beetlejuice and Ghostbusters and it's all cool. Obviously you can't do that COVID. So they made a Halloween road and it was fantastic. It was great. I loved every second of it. Big festive guy over here love Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas. So it's a good time of the year.

Right now, my wife is walking into her glam room. Not sure why you're disrupting my podcast. Anyway, before we get unbelievable, at least once a week, I mean granted, I am in her glamor room recording, so I guess it's only fair. But before we get to Dr Helen, we do have. We didn't get too dating terms last week, and I felt so bad because every week we're supposed to give out new dating terms to the suck army audience, and we didn't do it last week. So I am

here today. Eastern down the line as well. So Eastern, if you want to chime in and give us what you think some of these dating terms means, that would be great. You appreciated there he is East, and say hello to the people. Hi, people, great job. So the first one I have, I figured, you know, Halloween October, why not go to a little spooky term. So the first dating term, tell me what you think it is? Jekyl ing, jekyl spooky. That was spooky, Oh, Jacky, great guesses, guys.

I was trying to give Dean the the courtesy of going first. It's his podcast. But okay, jack Ling, this is um when you spend all of your time trying to develop a chemical that will make you a different person. Eastern came prepared for the phrases today. He had a little bit in his back pocket, and I appreciate where you're coming from. Are we talking? Are we talking like costumes? Like you're gonna put on a new costume costumes entirely? Well,

think about Jekyl. That's that's the keyword right there. Jackal. I'm gonna think Jackal is a combination between uh jackal and heckel. We all know. Heckling is like when you're screaming at players on the fields, obsd, absurd terms, all those types of things. Jackal is like a cap from Egyptian time or something like that. I don't know jack what a jack is. To combine the two, and you get someone pretending to be a jerk and and you know, essentially yellow the players in the field, but in reality

you are like a pretty good guy. So that's actually pretty close. Now. The reason I said Jekyl because come on, guys, Jekyll and hide the qualities of appearing to be one person but actually being someone else. So have you ever been approached by a man or woman online or in real life and thought that they're initially keen to shower you with compliments and flattery and the quest to get your attention, but as soon as you reject their advances. He turns nasty, very nasty. Usually this is more guys

and girls. Obviously, that's jackling right now, than where you meet someone who's overly showering you with compliments and kind to you and sweet and caring, and then as soon as you reject any advancements by them, flips the script turns nasty. That's jack ling right there. I want to say, jack ling is like the quintessential boy move. And I want to say I almost know the right on the head. I kind of have actually like the inverse of jack ling. I thought it was mean and then nice, but really

what this is nice and than mean. But I do want to say that I have friends I have. I have friends on both sides, friends that have both jackled and received the jackling. And it is very very frustrating, very frustrating. So last one before we get to uh the doctor. Uh, this one's funny. Uh term deja you, deja deja o. I'm gonna go before Eastern because it's

so hard to follow perfection. Sometimes dejat is when you meet someone that reminds you so much of an ex that you've had that you absolutely despised, and yet there's something about and that you just can't keep yourself away from. M H, I mean, I guess I was thinking something similar, like when you're dating someone you're like, hm, I feel like I've been disgusted by this before. This is something

that I've seen before and hated. Very good guesses. Both are pretty close, so uh, they want you to picture this scene. So both close your eyes and picture this scene at Ladies and Gentlemen, You're you're flicking through your chosen dating app and you come across the profile of someone you've already spoken to or have even been on a date with. It did not go well. That feeling, friends is called dejah you know, a bit of deja vaux,

but worse, that's deja ill right there. When you're on a dating app and you see somebody that you've already talked to or matched with, or even have gone on a date with, and it did not go well. It's like when you're on Tinder for a while, you go on a tender date, you delete Tender, get on Bumble. You're on Bumble and then you see that same guy on Bumble. It's honestly like dating in Rhode Island. Everybody knows each other and you've probably already been on a

date with everybody. Uh. So that will do it for dating terms. This week on the podcast, like we said, we have Dr Helen Fisher coming up. Very exciting, super knowledgeable. She takes an analytical approach to dating uh and give some intelligent advice, something Dean and I try to do mostly fail. So make sure you stick around. But before we talk to her, let's take a quick break. Welcome back. To help I suck at dating, we have a very

special guest who is on the line right now. She is a biological anthropologist also a senior Research Fellow at the Kinsey Institute of Indiana University. Dr Helen Fisher, Doctor, thank you so much for joining us. I'm glad to be with you. Um so, uh, we obviously looked you up a little bit research you. Now. I have a paragraph here from my producer that I actually would love to read to you, uh and our our listeners if

you don't mind. It's just a little bit of a background on you, and it might be the most impressive paragraph I've ever read, which is why I'd like to read it out loud. Um. Oh, it's great. So it says, of course, Dr Helen Fisher are our guest biological anthropologist

and senior research fellow. UH. You have written six books on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery and divorce, gender differences in the brain, the neural chemistry of romantic love and attachment, human biological based personality styles, why we fall in love with one person rather than another, hooking up friends with benefits, living together, and other current trends in the future of relationships what she calls slow love.

I would like to list off my and deemed credentials. We were on Bachelor and Paradise a couple of times, so that's apparently why we host this podcast. A little bit of a stark difference there. So doctor Um, I really just kind of want to ask you a couple of questions. I was listening to your talk at Google, which is very impressive, UM, and you brought up a couple of questions in that talk that I find very interesting because you obviously have done this this this research before,

and you talk about is monogamy natural? Why we fall in love, like I said before, one person rather than the other. So I'd really like you to talk about this this the seventy people that you put into this brain scanner to study the brains uh circuitry of romantic love.

I was wondering if you could kind of touch on that a little bit, give a little background for our listeners, h and why you did the study absolutely well, First of all, um, we've not put over a hundred people into the scan are using functional magnetic resonance imaging, and

we're I was really studying romantic love. I just think that we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems from mating and reproducing sex drive being one, second being feelings of intense romantic love, and third being feelings of deep attachment. So what I was looking for is what happens in the brain when you fall madly in love. And Um, we've put a lot of people in the machine, and

we actually know the brain circuitry of it. You know, I've always wondered, I mean, people painful love, they live for love, they kill full love, they die for love. It's a very powerful human experience. Instant when you look around the world, were saturated in all kinds of these artifacts of this. I mean not only myths and legends and and stories and plays and sitcoms and therapy books, but also operas and symphonies and and plays and holidays

and holiday cards and you name it. I mean, you know, we're saturated. And of course the Bachelor and and all the rest of them. I mean, you know, I mean, we're all looking for life's greatest prize, which is a mating partner. And this brain system evolved millions of years ago to enable you to focus your mating energy on just a single person and start that dating process. Uh. And of course you know, if you find the right person and you you form a real partnership, you're going

to send your DNA into tomorrow. So it's basically a survival mechanism. And so I thought to myself, well, if this is such an important thing, you see it everywhere. Everybody is craving to have it, and if one fails, they go and do it again all throughout their lives.

So why use it? So anyway, we began. I began to put people into the scanner with my colleagues, and I had them bring in two photographs, one of the person that they were madly in love with and one of a person who when you look at that picture, it calls off for no positive or negative feelings at all. It's just absolutely neutral. People would bring in, oh, a roommate from long ago, somebody that they know from the street, etcetera.

And what we had them doing, the machine has had them look at the photograph of their sweetheart and look at the photograph of the neutral individual, and then see what happens contrast what happens in the brain with the two of them. The problem with that is when you're madly in love with somebody, you can't stop thinking about them. So I had to do something to get the brain back into sort of a resting state before I showed

them the neutral photographs. So the way it ended up being is you look at the photograph of your sweetheart for thirty seconds. Then you we cast a large number on the screen, like eight thousand, four hundred and twenty one, and for so and so many seconds, you've got to look at that none birth and count backwards in increments of seven. Guess the whole brain uh into a different kind of state, and then we look at the neutral.

So it's positive count BacT neutral count BacT positive Dada's six rotations twelve times, And that way we were able to compare what goes on in your brain when you're madly love and what you're what the same brain under neutral state, and I my hypothesis was wrong. I had really thought that romantic love was an emotion or a whole series of emotions from high to love, and of course it is that. But it's basically a drive. It comes from the most primitive parts of the brain way

at the bottom of the brain. UM. In fact, it lies right next to a factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today. Romantic love UH enables you too, drives you really to to find the right person and send your DNA into tomorrow. So it's a very powerful brain system and we've been able to to locate it. D Helen, I got a question for you here. So you talked about over saturation, which I I totally agree with. It's everywhere, there's no hiding from it.

No matter what you're doing, you're gonna absorb it in somewhere or another. You also said that you test for three credentials for the hundred plus candidates that you tested. UM, do you screen for any like pre existing type of ideas for these candidates, because when you were naming off the three credentials that you test for, I was thinking in my head how I would fit into those categories, and I would almost say that I don't fit into a single one of those categories. So now I'm trying

to think of what are you testing? What? What's what's sex? Driver, romance and attachment? Or what are the three categories you're talking about? Those are the three categories I'm talking about. Named of those categories, I thought that none of those were really driving factors for me in my everyday life. And again maybe it's just my own oblivious nous, oblivion to my own self. But when you were naming them off, I was like, Okay, well, am I an outlier in

the sense? Or are does does everyone distinctly following fall into at least one of those categories? Or I'm just kind of curious, like what, let's let's say like someone as at least as self described as me were to be tested, what do you think that there was still be a reaction to be taken from it? I guess is my question? Like if there was, if you're not following one of those Okay, so they're not categories their

brain systems, their pathways in the brain. And when when when you're feeling the sex drive, you're feeling the sex drive. And I would imagine you're a young, handsome man, you gotta felt a sex drive at some point in your life. So when you're feeling the sex drive, it's that those brain pathways that are active when you're feeling intense feelings of romantic love, which probably have because almost everybody has.

You're feeling, uh, the elation, the giddiness, the euphoria, the sleeplessness to focus, the motivation, the obsessive thinking of romantic love, and when you're feeling a deep sense of attachment to somebody, uh, You're you're feeling sort of a cosmic connection. So they're they're basic brain systems like the anger system or the fierce system or and and I'm positive you've got all three of them. I mean, old man wals do. But

about the bottom line is they come and go. I mean, I mean, I you know, with my men, I mean there's times I look at him and I say, oh, man, is he ever is sexy right this minute? Oh? Is he? You know? Wow, let's let's go kiss and hug and then there's other times he'll say something hilariously funny and I think he's so charming, so so over the top the cool, and I feel that race of romantic love

for him. And then there's other times that we're cuddling and he says something really sweet and I feel that sense of deep attachment. But there's other times when I'm not thinking about them at all. I mean, I'm a writer, I'm a public speaker, and and none of those three brain systems are active at the time. So these are basic brain systems. We all have them to different degrees. Now, some people really feel his sex drive more than others.

Some people fall a lot more often than others. Some people feel deep attachment more often and for longer times than others. But the basic brain system, kid, and you've got them. That is a lot of information to take in. I'm trying to condense my next question because you talked about the feeling of love in the brain is right back there near thirst and hunger, pretty much necessities of life. So my my question is, I guess that feeling of

love would that be designated as a necessity of life? No, I mean, well, let's let's talk about which brain system. I mean the brain system for romantic love. Um, it's not a necessity. None of them are. I mean, you know, I have run into people who said they've never felt a sex drive. I mean not many, I'll tell you that. Uh. And I've found young people, um, who have never experienced

of romantic love, and they will. As a matter of fact, I have two friends who actually never They both married happily, they were deeply attached to their uh spouse, that both had children, and not until their fifties did either of them actually fall in love. And strange not with their partner with somebody else. In both cases, they never left their partner. They went on this ride really for a couple of years, and then they got rid of that

relationship and went back to their deep attachment. But they booth said the same thing to me, which was very interesting. They both said, you know, Helen, I read Romeo and Juliet, but I never got it. Now I get it. So these are basic brain systems. Everybody, almost everybody feels them. Now there's some people with oh, problems in the brain really, or they're too scared. They've had a problem in you know, in teenage or something. And they said I'm never doing

this again. But the vast majority everywhere in the world, you where, you know, as I said, we are deluged with the the artifacts of this incredible brains. It's like the fair system. I mean, everybody gets scared. You know. The youngest person I ever met, too was madly in love with two and a half, not talking about next drive. Every time a particular little girl would come over to his house, he just sitting here and just stroke her hair, and then when she left, he'd be depressed for about

an hour and a half. And I know a man right now, it was eighty seven. Who's nuts about it? Woman? I mean, he can't eat, he can't sleep, he cries when she doesn't call him. So it's a basic brain system. We all have it, and it evolved millions of years. Other animals have it too. By the way, um you know, in one of my books was why him? Why her? No, it was I guess why why we? Anyway, the bottom line is as a chapter about animal romance, and it's

a basic brain system. That is, it's the dopamine system, and they can be triggered in an instant. It's very easy to explain love at first sight but I remember this one story that I read in the New York Times. It was about a moose who fell in love with a cow, and from about sixty eight seventy six days, it just followed this cow, and the cow didn't pay any attention to the moose at all. And after about uh, you know, sometimes the moon gave up. Well, we all

make mistakes, and this most did too. So bottom line is it's a brain system that we inherited. Now, for example, a rat apparently only feels that attraction, that deep attraction that we've come to call romantic love, that deep attraction for about thirty seconds. An elephant you can see it for about five days during the person, the females period of vestres, etcetera. So it's gonna vary. It's not always

linked with attachment. What's amazing about people is that we not only fall in love with them, but then we sign up for a long term thing with them. I mean, uh, we form pair bonds. Were an animal that forms partnerships to we are young, very unusual of mammals do not pair up to the really young people do. And in fact, in our brain scanning, we not only looked at well, we ended up stumbling on the brain region linked with feelings a deep attachment as well as romantic love. Ok. There,

I got a question for you. So, so, gathering the information has to only behalf the battle, right, What do we do with that information once we have it? Oh? Brother, Well, you know I spent my life on this. You know, I'm chief science advisor to match dot com and I've been it for fifteen years. And um so I not only study love of of what's in the brain, but I want to know what you're looking for. Um uh, you know what kind of person, what kind of way

you're going to express your love, etcetera, etcetera. Well, I think there's a great deal that you can learn from it. Let me tell you something that's very important to me. We put people, and people say, well, what makes that happy partnership? I mean, uh, psychologists will say all kinds of things, which is very good. I mean, don't express criticism, don't show contempt, don't be defensive, don't stone wall, don't

don't don't shot down. All good, All good, But this is what the brain says when you are happily in love, not just loving, but in love in a long term partnership. These are three brain regions that become active in a long term, happy in love partnership. A brain region link with empathy, a brain region link with controlling your own

stress and your own emotions. And a brain regionalate with what I call positive illusions, the ability to overlook what you don't like about somebody and focus on what you do. So that's where this brain scanning come in and can really add what the brain is doing when you're madly in love. Um, and so I mean there's I mean, I can go on forever, but I'll just say one thing about the Internet. I mean, um, knowing what I know about the brain, we're misusing these dating sites. Nothing

wrong with these dating sites. In fact, they're not even dating sites. All they are is introducing. So all they do is introduce you. Everybody's up in the air that they're going to change humanity. Probably do is introduce you to somebody. You meet them, you smile the way you always did, your laugh, the way you always did your parade, the way you always did you you assess them the way you always did. So that's all they are is introducing sites. But we don't really know how to use them.

And that's where knowing about the brain, and I'll be happy to go through it, but I don't want to go rambling on here. Uh. There's ways to use the Internet that I have been able to learn from, uh from internet dating, uh, from knowing what I know about the brain. So it's very useful understanding the brain, understanding um, the psychology, what people are looking for, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. No more you can know about love, the better you

can handle it when the time comes. Um. So dr you also did a study with match match dot com talking about how has transformed dating and there's some interesting facts uh that are in here. Um of the people that you serve a s singles said they spent quarantine without sex, um and of the other who had sex, one in four so about of them had sex with their non romantic roommates. So how is and how has quarantine changed the world of dating? Well, um, weirdly enough

in in a in actually a very positive way. I mean, you know, it's a horrible disease, no question about that. It's get given this almost perversely strange, oddly good gift to two singles. But first of all, back to the uh person who who had sex with a non romantic partner. I'm not at all surprised at that. Academics call it

situation a situational sex. I mean, it's very clear that you know, if you're in stuck in jail or some other sort of institution, or if you're traveling in places where you don't know anybody and you're lonely, you're gonna end up having sex with people who you might not have chosen back at home. So that's what's going on.

And uh, I'm not at all surprised. You're stuck in a place for months with somebody, You're gonna get to know them, You're gonna have a lot of meals with them, You're gonna watch a lot of TV with them, You're gonna, you know, share a lot of your your hopes and disappointments with them. And all of this self disclosure does um amp up intimacy. So I'm not surprised that people are having sex with somebody who they are they didn't

were in love with. What interests me about that is, I wonder how many will remain whether they actually do fall in love, and we don't have the data on that yet. But anyway, back to your other question of why this horrible disease, how it's changed dating? Is it changed it in a very interesting and significant way. As you mentioned in your introduction, I talked about slow love. You know, I've been studying with match for fifteen years.

We do not pull the Match members. This is a national representative sample of singles based on the US Census, so it's real science. We got dat on fifty people. And what I've found, uh, is that I call it slow sex. I mean sorry and slow low. You know, we used to uh, you know, meet somebody in our early twenties and marrying our early twenties. Now we're marrying in our late twenties. Uh, and we're seeing this long period of getting to know people before you tie the knot.

It's called slow low. I've really impressed with the younger day. They want to get this right. They they want to They want um, you know, transparency, they want honesty, they want meaningful conversations. UM. They want somebody with a with a with a good education and a and and a job and financial stability. They are serious about it, and they they're gonna stick it out until they find the

right person. So that's a trend that I have been seeing for several years that I call slow love, And what the pandemic has done is slow it down even more. You know, prior to the pandemic, um, people really met on the internet and then they went out on the first date. Now they meet on the internet and then this whole period of video chatting before they go out in person. And I think that's very adaptive. I mean, you know on that first date, it's the first dates

are very awkward. I mean, first of all, you know, do you spend a lot of money going to a fancy bar or do you just buy a cup of coffee together? Uh? Money is off the table when you do video chatting. Sex is off the table. You don't have to decide whether they're gonna kiss and hug or hold her hand or anything. Sex is off the table.

And what we're seeing during this pandemic is, um, people are spending a lot longer on the internet, UM, having these video chats, getting to know somebody before they uh have to kiss any frogs. Um. Uh. They are having more meaningful conversations. We've got good data on that. It came out this week. Um. They are having They're more honest, they're more transparent. Uh. They're less interested in the in in in good looks, not only in themselves, but in uh,

potential partners. They're even more interested in somebody who's got a good job and it's financially stable. They're doing more of what I call intentional dating uh and uh, and they're slowing down the process us. And from an anthropological or Darwinian perspective, I've got data on a d cultures through the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations. My data goes back to and as it turns out, the longer you court and the later you marry, the more likely

you are to stay together. And that's what we're seeing with this pandemic, the slowing down of courtship. And we may well and we're gonna get out of this pandemic at some point and people will get back to meeting in person. But what's interesting is fifty eight percent of these people, when I asked, uh, you know, will you do you think that you would continue doing this video chatting before the first date? Percent said yes. And I'm not surprised because it's easy. It's a vetting process. For

God's sakes. You know, you can get rid of the ones you don't want before you go out and spend money and time and get all dressed up and have the awkwardness with sex. So it seems to be a new stage in the dating process. It's slowing it down

even more. And slow love is I think going to lead to relative family stability, And you think that the eight percent is gonna hold because when I think about it, I think people are just kind of stuck in this idea and so they're just saying, yeah, I can see this happening post pandemic, but it's hard for me to

imagine that happening after the fact. And then I also follow up question, do you think that I know, we touched a lot of the positives for this, uh slow love as we talked about, but what kind of negatives do you think we can possibly draw from it too? Oh, it's a very good question. Um, it's funny Nobodyson asked me that question. I got to think coming in fire and hot, t me out, man, do you have any ideas of what would be bad about getting into somebody slowly?

I mean, listen, I've got I think we all kind of have bad ideas, not bad ideas, but ideas of how it could be bad. It's but the fact of the matter is we're kind of confronted with those ideas as it is anyways, the single people as it is. You know, it's like your worst ideas are already kind of happening in front of you, so it's easy to kind of pick and choose the positives that are coming

from it. Um. I'm just trying to think that maybe some long term side effects that maybe wouldn't be so positive, And You're right, it's hard to it's hard to pick and choose and find those things that maybe are are going to be long lasting that aren't. I'd say one thing that I and I don't know if this is a true negative or not, or if it's just my own mind, but I do feel that sometimes people give up on love too easily, or give up on people too easily, and I'm curious that with slow love, if

they're they're more willing to give up even easier. Um, that would be one side effect I'd be interested to see, because you know, with when within relationship, we all know that there are going to be certain times when the relationship isn't going well and you kind of have to

overcome some obstacles together and and figure things out. No relationship is ever perfect, and I'm curious if slow love is going to lead people to even thinking that they need more of a perfect relationship something that just doesn't exist, you know, for some reason. I think see that as Apple's and oranges. I mean, slow love is is just talking about the courtship process, the slowing down of getting

to know somebody. That's all it is. And I think that what you're talking about is in a relationship, and certainly in a relationship there's escalation points and there's breaking points, and all the way along, uh, you know, you can they can say something hilariously funny and oh man, this is this is you know, gosh, I'm really with the right person, and then all of a sudden they're going to vote for somebody you think is insane, and uh, you think, oh my god, where am I coming from here?

You know. So, I mean, you know, it's a rocking road for contexts. Beautiful not romantic love is that we're able to overlook what we don't like about somebody. I mean, as Chaser said, love is blind. And what we found in the brain scanner was that people who were madly in love showed less and less activity in brain regions linked with with decision making and uh uh you know objective thinking. So um, the brain is built to fall in love. And I think the flow of is just

a just the slowing down of the courtship process. That's all it is, is the slowing down of the courtship process. But I don't think that's gonna make people give up. I think the people are going to give up are going to give up a different kind of reasons. I agree. I think what I was referring to is whenever I hear friends go on dates with people, and they always kind of point out the negatives rather than the positives.

For example, they always I feel like a lot of my friends are they're almost making excuses as to why they shouldn't see someone or why they don't think that this relationship would pan out because you know, oh well he uh you know war blue shirt and I hate blue so I'm not sure if it's gonna work out.

I'm obviously being dramatic when I say things like that, but I have seen examples within my own friend group where even before the relationship begins, they're unwilling to give it a shot because not because it it doesn't feel right, but because there there seems to be some sort of obstacle in the way, which I find more as an excuse,

maybe because they're nervous of jumping into a relationship. And I'm curious if that has been bred from quote unquote slow love, because you know, forty years ago it was you know, you you you got married for different reasons. People will get married because they they lived close together, or because you know, it's what society kind of deemed upon them, or um, you know, for financial reason, stability, kids,

so on and so forth. And obviously people are getting married now later in life for a multitude of different reasons, most most of all being that they are in love with the person. And I'd argue that, of course, at the end of the day, that's the right course of action. But I'm curious, you know, if we're just talking about any type of negativity or or side effects from quote

unquote slow love. I'm just kind of throwing stuff against the wall, and I guess I could see that maybe being a minor, minor side effect, even though I'm only just playing Devil's advocate really, and I'm all for slow love. First of all, Jared, I love that you said that, because, um, we don't know how to use the internet. And the biggest problem is exactly what you said. I don't think it has to do with slow love, so love is just the courtship process. But I do think that it

has a basic problem. You just hit something really important. There's a huge brain region called the ventral medial preferntal cortex. It's a giant area in the brain that is linked with what is called negativity bias. From millions of years, we have evolved a mechanism to remember the bad negativity bias. For millions of years, it was adaptive to remember the bad.

I mean, for example, let's say you're walking along in a little hunting to gathering group a million years ago, and you know who All your male friends are very cool, but if you forget who doesn't like you, you could die. So the bottom line is the brain is built to remember the negative. And when you go out with somebody for the first time or whatever, the brain is going to remember that he wore a blue shirt and I

don't like the color blue. He likes cats and I like dogs, she likes uh, you know, wind sailing, and and I like concert pianists, you know. I mean. The bottom line is we're built to remember the negative. So there's two things that I say about using the internet. Nothing wrong with the Internet, it's just an introducing site, uh mechanism. But when you go out with somebody, you know so little about them that you that we tend

to put too much weight on those few things. So the first thing I think of is to your friends who said this to you, think of reasons to say yes. Overlook the negative. Now, I mean, if the person is two ft tall and ten feet wide, and and it doesn't speak your language and is missing most of their teeth, it's pretty obvious. But the bottom line is the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them, and the more that you think that they are like you.

So what your friends are suffering from is not slow love. That's just a courtship process. But it is a primitive and ancient bias of remembering the negative about somebody. And so the bottom line is get tell your friends who are a doing this, overlook the negative unlessen so obviously, over accentuate the positive. Think about what you like about the person, and and try to get rid of what you don't. So I've got a question for you, and

it's it's burning inside of me. Uh so for someone as intelligent and especially in a little quays you you mentioned this at the top of the conversation, that you are with someone. How I want to hear about the genesis of your relationship, right, because we all overthink things, we all go into, like you said, negative byas all these things, I want, I want to know more about how you found your partner. Well, um, so, I'm old, I'm over seventy and I got married to him about

eight weeks ago. Congratulate. Okay, here's without getting married with somebody. I married somebody when I was twenty three for about four months. I didn't want to marry him. When I did, I was scared of my mother. I went through it, but that was ridiculous and nobody had any property. Every he was happy with the divorce, et cetera. That and you know, and I've had long, beautiful partnerships with with two other men. But anyway, one thing led to well,

this is a good story. Actually, um So this guy. First of all, he um was on staff the New York Times for for twenty two years. So He's interviewed me many times over the years, and and um, I've liked him, but I've never put the move, ever put the move on anybody in my business world. So we came and went and now and then I always really admired who he was and everything. Anyway, Uh, six years ago, we were invited out to a private ranch in Montana and this and our host had invited about twenty UM

journalists and writers. And he offered to give me a ride back to the airport. So we were in his car for about two and a half hours, just the two of us. He's driving along and he says to me, I didn't know him that well. Uh you know, he said, I'm never he was going to a horrible divorce, I mean really really bad. And he said, I'm never going out with another woman. Never. Never, as long as I live, I'm never ever going out with another woman. And I thought to myself, you know, I'm the only one in

the car. I think he's trying to tell me something. So so I said, well far out. You know, those other boys in the in the world for god sexy. But anyway, so we started to go out every six weeks or so with a group of people and at the end he'd give me a nice hug. And I always liked them, but I never going to put the

moves on them. So anyway, finally we were I don't know if you guys are from New York, but bottom line is it was in May and we were a week a year later and we were going to have an early dinner, walk the high Line and then go play pool. So I don't know what got into me, but I pulled my cocktail napkin out from underneath my drink, and I said, why don't we secretly right down, um what we would like to win if we win at pool? So I wrote on my a real kiss. And I'm

sick of the hut. I didn't know. I didn't know what I anybody had written down. So anyway, um, we go play pool. He kills me at pool. I had play pool ten times in my life. He grew up at the pool table in his basement. So I opened his little napkin and it says sex and clarity to the point. So I said, I got you. I got you. Yeah, I figured out what you mean by the sex, But

what do you have in mind for clarity? And he wanted to be friends with benefits, and he wanted to make it very clear, and I said that would be fine. But I said to him, we walked up town and we weren't going to do anything that night. I would say three am. But then and I said, I said, I said, you know, I studied love, and uh, I said, I just would like to ask you one question. You know, when you have sex with somebody, it can triggered the

brain circuitry for romantic love. Any stimulation of the genitals can drive up the dopeming system and trigger feelings of romantic love. And with orgasm there's a real flood of oxytocin link with attachment. There's a possibility that you would fall in love. Are you willing to take that chance? And he said, yes, I don't know. I don't know all is the right response to that. That's like the most like analytical. I think that's really adorable. It's so

it's not falling in love with you. That's that's the that's the adorable part. I mean, listen, listen, I get it, and I agree with you. It's a beautiful story. But it's so funny that we've all had that same conversation, probably multiple times with multiple different people, but we never put it so eloquently as saying exactly what Dr Helen said. We all try to say it, we all all try to say multiple times, but we don't put it that eloquently. We don't. We're not that clear, you know what I mean.

Thank you, Dean. There's another part of the story. You know. You asked what have I learned? And I there was something very very valuable with him. You know, he really was going through a terrible divorce. I mean, I won't go to the details, but anybody would agree that this

was an otter nightmare. And um uh. And after about three months of starting our friends with benefits, it was about Thanksgiving time and he said to me, said, you know, Helen, I am just overwhelmed with it, all of my issues here. I just have to stop this relationship. I wasn't mad at him. I've never been mad at him, because he was clear and he was honest. And he said I said, okay, you know, I get it. And it was in Grand Central Station. He says this over a drink. I walk

home in tears. Of course, I never called him again, I never wrote him again, I never badgered him to change his mind. I never showed him that I was suffering. Never. And about six weeks later he writes me, and he says, I think I made a terrible mistake. And what he had learned was that here is the woman who he could get rid of. It's very important to hold somebody with an open hand so that they know they want to be there. And I think I would have done

that even without knowing what I know about love. But I certainly have learned it. And I mean and and it was a success. And so the bottom line is that people don't want drama. They want to know that

they're there because they want to be there. And um, and he learned that, you know if you and I even said to him, you know, after we got married, I said, I'm never going to divorce you, but if things go bad, I'm just gonna move out and change my will, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, we oddly enough play this one day at a time. I mean, I'm in it for the life. I'm in it for life. He's in it for life. It's not a problem, and we will not have a problem. We

see the world the same way. But the bottom line is I like this concept of of doing it one day at a time on some psychological level, so you know, I mean, you know, uh, And also we are l A T. I said, I said, I'd love to marry him, that's for sure, but I'm not moving in and uh, um, so we'd keep our own apartments. He lives in the Bronx. I live in Manhattan. What does l a T stand for? Living apart together? And so there last night. Uh, I'll go back on Friday night and we're gonna go away

for the week all next week. That's great. Um, So there's a long periods of time that I stay with him. But he likes his evenings of eating pizza and and reading all night. And I like my evenings of going out with girlfriends into the theater and all this stuff. And you know, we weren't built for two seven. I mean, as an anthropologist, our ancestors were always what they call it fish and fusion. I mean men would go hunting for several days and women would go gathering and go

see friends of relatives for two weeks. I mean they came and went, which you can do if you trust somebody, and and we do. So we're l a t Look, that's one of the beauties of today. You know, we can build the kind of partnerships that we that we really want to have. It's not a cookie cutter thing.

I remember that. You know, Jared was saying, well, in the past, you know, um, you know, you really had to really a hundred years ago, you had to marry the right girl or boy from the right ethnic background, from the right social background, with the right amount of money, with the white religion, and hopefully from the farm next door. They really had some very rigid criteria of who you could with. These days, that's all off the table. Uh. You know, we can now pick somebody for whatever reasons

that appeal to us. What we're really looking for in my studies with match is for companionship. What singles want today of all ages is a companion. Doctor. What I what I find so so interesting as well, but not surprising. The slightest is that earlier in this conversation as well, you mentioned how important education, intelligence, but most importantly communication is. And I've noticed the thing that you continue to touch on about your partner now is how communicative and honest

he is with you and you are with him. And I agree with you. I think that communication and honest you are the two most important pillars, uh for anything, because it's like, okay, cool, do I waste my time with this person so I continue carrying on? If I carry on, are they gonna be honest with me about the things that I don't like? The things I do like? All these types of things, And then you can obviously

make your own decisions. There's no guessing, there's no trying to figure out what they're thinking or what they're doing, all those types of things, and that definitely seems to be the thing that makes things work the best. But Dr Helen, we appreciate you joining us. Um. We hope to have you again soon. We hope to hear from you again soon. In best of luck with everything okay, and thanks Dr, thank you so much. A lot is up, sucky dators. Welcome back to our favorite segment. It is

the email segment. Before we get into it, do not forget to email us. I suck at dating at i heeart media dot com. It's our favorite segment. It literally is the only reason I signed into this podcast every single week just three you know, I could care less about Jerry's true and it's it's in his I could care less about anyone else. All I care about is the email, So keep emailing us. I Suckle dating at i heeart media dot com. We have Easton on the

other side of the wine, who is very gracious. You're gonna read this email for us, so let's get to it. Thank you for the invite, Dean, I appreciated. This email is from Grace. I am newly married and my husband and his family are still not over the fact that I don't want to take his last name. Every time I go over to my in laws, they bring up the fact that I don't have their last name, and that gets my husband fired up. I lost my dad as a teenager, and I built a career with my

maiden name. How do I have this conversation with them without hurting their feelings or insulting them. Well, Dean's phone died, so I'll answer this email. Um, I think listen, Chris, don't feel pressured into taking your husband's name. It's if you want to keep your maiden name, keep your maiden name, or not even made a name, keep your name. Uh you know, I know it's very traditional. Some people feel compelled that they have to change their last name to

their husband's last name. Who cares keep your last name? Like you said, you've built a career on it. Uh, your your father. Uh, you lost your father at a young age. You want to keep his name? Keep it? Uh, don't feel pressured. Okay, that would be my advice. Don't let somebody pressure you into it. And if they are pressuring you, I think that's wrong on their part, especially thinking about the circumstances that you're going through. Uh. It's

your name. Uh, you are an independent person. Uh. While you're in a marriage, you are very much allowed to keep your last name. So I would just stick to your guns and tell them exactly how you feel and be honest with them. You're not insulting anybody, uh, and hopefully you won't hurt their feelings. Um. And I just feel like their feeling shouldn't be hurt. I just feel like they should understand. Yeah. I think a name, uh is the name is most important to who holds that name,

and that is you, Greace. So what of her name you want? I mean, frankly, when when I got married, I told my wife, I was like, I don't I don't care if you take my name or not at the very least, it's a ton of paperwork and it's a lot of time and effort. Like, Man, if you don't want to do that, I understand, I don't care. Um. But but she did it because she know I'm just kidding. Uh, but she she she did take my name, that that was important to her. Um. But at the very least,

it's so much work to change your name. I mean, I understand if you don't want to do it. For anyway, it's a lot of homework. Yeah, so tell him, tell him to tell him to shove it. They can keep

their name. Yeah, I told, I told Ashley I'd like for her to take my name, but it certainly was not a requirement if she wanted to keep her name, keep your name, because especially I can understand where Grace is coming from about losing her father at a young and she wants to keep her name because actually Ashley's dad had two girls, so his iconected name is not gonna last because there's no one to pass it on. Um. So, but actually wanted to take my name. I think she's

hyphen ating, but it's her name. She can do whatever she wants with it. I have no say in the matter. Uh and that's the bottom line, Okay, because stone cold Steve Austin said, so ere we go. We're just talking about fantasy football and w w E on this podcast. Really just you know, honing into our target audience. So now that Deans has gone on, behalf of Dean Anglert. Thank you so much for tuning into this podcast, everybody, We really appreciate it. A big thank you to Dr

Helen Fisher. Please go to Helen Fisher dot com. She's written a vast amount of books on love, relationships, sex, uh, dating, slow love, lust, so go check her out. Um, big thank you to everybody listening, everybody emailing in grace. Thank you so much for emailing us. Please keep your emails coming. Like Dean said, it truly is our favorite part of the podcast. We love you guys because without your podcast, without you listening to this podcast, there is no podcast. Uh.

So you guys truly make this uh this engine go. Uh. Thank you to everybody who follows us on social media again, Shamus plug go check us out. Help I suck at dating. I posted a video the other day and it's probably my favorite video in the history of filmmaking. So go check that out. Where in the world is Dean Unclert is the title of it um. Thank you to Easton, Thank you to everybody who makes this podcast. Go uh. And Dean Unglert may or may not be back next week.

I think he will be as long as he has more than one percent on his phone. So make sure you tune in where hopefully we all suck just a little bit less. Follow help by Suck at Dating on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcast