Shrinkage with The Shrink Chicks

is gonna be a wonderful episode. Um, but we're psyched to be here. We're two licensed marriage of emmy therapists and sex therapists and we love helping people get a little bit better at dating and relationships. Even if it's just a little bit, just an issue. You could help us suck a little bit last. We've been trying for years and trust me, it's still is. We're not going anywhere. Okay, we'll make one inch of progress today for Everything podcast.

We're not looking for miracles, but a little little, a little becomes a lot. Okay, that's a promise. We're gonna hold you to that one inch. That's all we need. UM, it's great to have you guys here. It's nice you guys are your presence on the podcast, it's it's it's very obvious you guys are really good podcasting presences. I have to say it took us some time. Yeah, do that just made we have a face for radio. Like, isn't that a thing you said? You're like, you want

to know what these girls these girls to say. But I will say this. We talk for a living, spend every day helping wonderful people improve their lives and relationships. That's what we specialize in. And one of the cool things about podcasting is a lot of people are free to have by therapy. So why not make this information totally accessible. Let's not gate keep this. Let's help everyone move a little bit farther along and normalize that, normalize

it healthy, make it more relatable. Did you guys, are you guys friends that are both therapists or are you therapists that became friends that if that makes sense? We met in grad school. We met in grad school, so as we were becoming therapists, we were also becoming friends. So why did you want to become a therapist? Um, you know, I think there's a bunch of reasons where I personally was always the friend that everyone went to.

It came really naturally for me. Um went to therapy at a very young age, had an amazing therapist, and then had some other therapy experiences that weren't so great. Um. So it's just something that I think was really natural for the both of us. I'm a spiteful human. I went to a bunche of therapist that I hated, and I said I could do this better, and that is basically how. But I think in general, we're always very interested in how relationships worked in you know, dating ourselves.

I was someone who desperately wanted to be loved, desperately wanted to be in relationships, and was always desperately and needy about it. And so I think by trying to figure out our own ship, it was really helpful to look at other people's and go along the journey. Because we believe that you can only take your clients as far as you're willing to go yourself. Yeah that's fair. Um. I noticed you guys at the beginning, you said you're not You started the podcast because you didn't want to

keep any information that you have, which I think is great. Um, my question for you is, have you noticed like a paradigm shift towards like the destigmatization of therapy because I feel like a lot more people are talking about it, a lot more people are open about going to it. Um, have you guys noticed that within the profession at all? A thousand percent? It's like the cool thing to do now, is they My therapist said, right, I mean there's all

these things. I think that there was a really great meme going around that said like baby boomers would be like my therapist said, and like you know, millennials and gen z are like, let me can tell you about this. My therapist se so like it's just a difference in generational about like accepting help and knowing that we don't have to be experts and everything. And I think also for a long time, especially couples therapy, it was done as a punishment. If we don't figure this out, I'm

gonna make us go see a couple's therapist. The thing is, a couple's therapy shouldn't be about a discipline or punishment. It should be about because like we want this to be really awesome. And also because we have this next generation of people. We also don't want to screw up a lot of us. Our parents should have been in therapy. They just and for many of us, we say this if if the generation above us had done the work,

we wouldn't have had to do so much. So for many of especially that are becoming parents as well now, we want it to be different for the next generation. And I think that's really cool. Yeah, definitely, do you

guys want to know? One of my biggest pet peeves is one of the one of the things that gives me the biggest if you will, is when, uh, I'm sure every one of us can attest this to Anna and Jared specifically, because you know, you put yourself out in the public eye and people feel like they have an obligation to tell you a bunch of things. My biggest pet peeve is when someone says, oh, you need therapy.

And the reason it makes me so angry is because not that they're wrong, because I think everyone could benefit from therapy, but what they're basically saying is, Hey, there's something really wrong with you, and I think you benefit by going to see a therapist about it. Where it's like, okay, like are you saying that I don't know, just something

about it really just irks me so much exactly. So it's also right, it absolutely stigmatizes therapy because in the end, we could all benefit from therapy, right, And I think that that's that's part of the issue, is that we say you have to be in such a horrible place to go to therapy, as opposed to like, no, we're all human beings, like there are all things that we struggle with and it can be beneficial for everyone. And so I think that that's that it almost adds to

the stigmatization of therapy by saying that. And I think one of these we you know, we work with lots of people have put their lives out for the world to see in some ways, and people think because you consent to a certain part of means you can consent to the terrorizing you experience on social media, which I do not agree with. Just because somebody chooses to share parts of themselves with you does not mean that I

owe you everything. And that goes back to a larger conversation about like paras social relationships and like what I owe to you because I choose to put myself out there, which is actually nothing and you're all only right, the world is only seeing a certain part of you. They're not seeing all aspects of you, and so I think it can be so polarizing for people right there only

seeing this one specific part. That's like entertaining for people as opposed to like, here's my whole backstory, here's everything that has gone on that has led up to this point, which is where empathy really develops, is our ability to see the whole aspect, the entire context that we grew up in and what has led us to this point. Yeah. Absolutely So for you guys, what's uh, what do you find people coming to you most in terms of like

what they're looking for for help with? Is it relationship stuff? Is it personal stuff? Is it like child driven stuff? Do you guys notice like a trend in terms of anything like that? Okay, I will say we've noticed a very big trend when we started, when we started being a couple of therapists ten years ago, people were always coming in as a last ditch effort. I'm about to get divorced, I'm about to walk out. This is people

will call up. I mean, I can't even tell you how often we get phone calls and say we're calling up as the last ditch effort. Well, if there's not much I can do, when you've already called the lawyer, I gotta tell you that when you have already like already, yes, you're already out. So ten years ago it was last ditch effort for couples therapy. Now it's Hey, I've heard other people a couple of therapy change their life. I

have heard that I want to be better. So I think now it's much more about growth and compassionate curiosity about your partner. I think on an individual level, a lot of it is I do not want to be like my parents. I don't want to make the same thing. I don't want to make the same decisions they did, And whether I am going down the same path where I realized that I'm overcorrecting and trying so hard to not be my parents, I'm going the other way. I

think it's really about like the personal growth aspect. But honestly, in the past decade we've seen a massive change, and I think it often happens when people are at these like transitional points in their lives, right like if they're going for it to from graduating college into the workforce, if they're getting into a relationship, if they're playing on getting married, if they just had kids, if they're struggling to have kids. Right like that, there's all these really

these pain points in transitions that can be really hard. Um. So is it one specific thing? I would say no, but it touches it ends up people might come in and say, oh, like I have this one specific thing I actually talk about in my relationship, it ends up going into deeper childhood stuff. Right, Even if they're coming in for one specific thing, it ends up getting deeper. Um, even if that's not what they came in for. Right,

that makes sense. I Caitlin and I have been to a couple of therapy a couple of times, and it's always when we're like in the middle of an argument and we're like, this will help us, but reality, we should be going to a couple of therapy even when things are going well. So exactly, we talked about it

in terms of maintenance. Um. And it's the same kind of thing that people will say, oh, they're going a couple of therapy, like things must be really bad as opposed to know, relationships are just hard, they are so complicated. You're both bringing in from your childhood into your relationship, and we trigger the biggest pain points with each other

within our relationships. And so as opposed to it being oh, they go to a couple of therapy must be so bad, you know, like it's actually just important maintenance to do in your relationship. Also, I think it's really cool. It's like I care enough about this relationship to, you know, kind of do whatever I have to do to make it work. I think it's I think it's at what point in a relationship do you think it's good then to go? Because if you're sitting pretty, you're not really

thinking about doing it. But is there like a certain mark like seven months, eight months, or like when you're talking about moving in, or what would you say would be a good time stamp okay. So statistically we know that people go into couples therapy seven years after it's first brought up. So the first time it's mentioned is when you go. Obviously, the therapeutic response, because we're a couple's therapist is like you should be going. It's expensive,

that's not realistic, that's not gonna happen. But the first time somebody says we should do this is when you should do it, because so often it gets brought up. Once it gets brought up, twice it gets brought up.

We call make the appointment that we never actually show up. Right, all of those things is what keeps these We talk about it in terms of like if you think about a crack on the sidewalk, right, if it's not repaired, it's gonna keep getting bigger and bigger, even if it's a smaller crack and it doesn't look like that big of a deal at the beginning, all of a sudden, people are falling slipping inside this crack. That's what's gonna happen. So the first time it's brought up is when you say,

let's do this. Now, you don't have to go for ten months. You don't have to go for this long thing. But going in preventatively, just like Dean just said, like I think it is also a commitment. I care about you. I care about the same thing about my health. If I don't take care of my body in certain ways, well what's gonna happen. It's gonna get harder and harder to do and come back from. Once I sort of

let it go. I think some of the toughest times to do that, right that we tend to write if we get into a fight, say like, oh, we should go to therapy to help us really figure this out. But I think it's even tougher when you're not talking about things right, when you when there's tension in the relationship but no one's talking. We always talk about a

couple of therapists. So much easier when a couple comes in and they're fighting than when a couple comes in and they're not talking at all and they're like, everything's fine, right, So I think that that can make it even more challenging when you're not talking, but you know, you need to talk about some of these things to be able to say, let's go into couple of therapy so we can have someone mediate this because it can be scary. Yeah,

I think that's that's really good advice. Um, what about what do you guys have to say to people, whether they're looking for solo counseling or a couple's counseling or anything that I think one of the things that make people so nervous is like how do they find it? How do they go about it? Like what does the

process look like? So what do you what kind of advice do you have for people that are like nervous about even starting it for the first time, and even like about finding a therapist, which I'm sure you guys can go on and on about, but like people that have considered it but maybe haven't followed through with the

action yet. I think one of the things that we see is that sometimes people will go in for a therapy session with a therapist, have don't have a connection with them, and then write off therapy for the rest of time, right like, Oh, I went, I tried therapy, it didn't work. When we talk about your relationship with your therapist is the most important predictor of therapeutic success. So you have to find someone who's the right fit.

We almost talk about it in terms of dating, right, like there are certain people you're going to connect with and other people you're not going to connect with, and it's so important to find a therapist that you feel a connection with. Sometimes you can hit it off off the bat, sometimes it takes a few sessions, but we recommend you know, having initial consultation calls just so you can see if you connect with the person and if they work with what you're looking to come in for

and so that can take time. It can be intimid dating. Ask friends if they have therapists that they would recommend. Right, Some people rave about their therapist. Anyone have a friend that they're like talk about their therapists like they're their friend.

I've never close personal connection with a therapist before. I've always i guess I've always kind of walked in and looked at them, at them as like a like a like a like authority figure, and since you know so, it's hard for me to like lean and be friendly with them. Yeah, So that's that. That is why we started our practice because we have gone and had therapeutic experiences where the therapist very much had that clinical wall. You looked at them as like in this one up position.

And we really believe that if you have they're a therapist who you can relate to, who you can connect with, that that is really going to help you more so in therapy than someone who is an authority figure who has this clinical wall. And so that's something that we really preach at our practice. Yeah, I think it's one

of those things. Also, if you a lot of people feel this about doctors, right, like especially if we when we talk about the sex education side of it, if people like to go away and the doctors like, well,

do you have any unprotected sex? And you're like no, no, never me, never row dogs in my life, but like come on, you did, and we need to know that information to test for certain stuff, right, So, like part of this is also but if I see you as this like old dude that like freaks me out and like I think you're gonna shame me if I say I've had unprotected sex, which is just like kind of part of the human experience, Like you're not this horrible person.

You just made a decision. But when we don't, when we can't admit that stuff to the person who's supposed to be there to help us, they actually can't do their job properly either. So if you feel so uncomfortable, same thing, like you know, and like everyone kind of lies on things like how many times a week do you drink? Like you know, like all of these things that we like don't really tell the truth on when

we see people as this really hierarchical thing. You're the authority figure, you're on top, You're on part of this. I'm not gonna go and be honest with you. And guess what, I can't do my job as well if I don't know what's going on. There's only so much I can do. If you're tell well, we don't actually ever fight ever, but also you haven't had sex in ten months and you fight every day. And also I tell you nothing about myself and I can hate you, you know, like I can't really do as much to

help you. Then I remember one of my first coming coming to Jesus moments with my therapist. I started therapy and I was like, I've been in and out as a teenager and stuff, but I I self admitted when I was twenty six for the first time, I made

the decision myself. And I remember one of my sessions I lied to my therapist about something like pretty early on, like maybe it was like session six or something like that, and I like took a step back, and I was like, I just lied to the to the person that I should be able to be perfectly honest with because they're trying to help me in a lot of ways. And uh.

And then I stopped seeing her because I was like, if I don't feel comfortable to tell her all the truths that I need to tell her to get off my chest, then maybe this isn't really gonna go how I need to go. Um. So that's great. I love that you guys are knocking down those walls and are allowing people to do that because I think it's so important.

And it's like, if you're not willing to tell the truth to the person that's like there to help you, then like, what else are you like hiding from yourself? I guess in a lot of ways, so exactly. And I think that's a question, right if you find yourself lying to your therapist to say, what's going on for me? Like, what's my fear is it? Is it that I fear

that this person will judge me? Is that coming from a sense of I feel that in every relationship or is that coming from Okay, I don't have a connection with this therapist. I don't feel comfortable with them, because sometimes the relationship that we have with our therapist is reflected in all of our relationships, and that's something you

can really work on in the context of therapy. Um. But that's a question to ask yourself if you find yourself lying to your therapist, say like, what where was that coming from for me? And it's something if you feel comfortable enough with your therapist that you can process through with your therapist in your next session. Like, Hey, I lied to you about this. I don't know why.

I think we should talk about it. And I think especially with couples, especially when the fighting is maybe what we deem is unhealthy fighting right where like there's a lot of screaming or there's aggression and our throw a glass at the wall. There's so much shame of what

this person is going to think about me. And the thing is that like we've heard it all, and like really truly, if you're feeling judged about your therapist, like if they say stuff, don't see them they suck, Like that's like it like you don't have to like you're actually paying this person. They work for you, so it doesn't mean that they have to be nice to you and like co sign all your stuff. Like our job is to tell you the truth and sometimes that sucks

to hear. But if you feel like you can't be honest about what's actually happening, it's not the right fit. But the reality is is that sometimes stuff is dirty fighting. Sometimes things are so bad and I'm past aggressive and I mean to you and I shove you and I don't sleep with you when I use it as threats, and like, these are very real things that we have

to talk about more. But we're so worried that that makes us evil or bad or for women crazy or for guys boys, what any of the other things that we've sort of made into We've got to come back to, like being honest about how real this is the amount of times clients will come in and say, this is going to sound so crazy, and it never sounds crazy, never, never, but people people feel so much shame or they there's they you build stuff up so much in your head,

but there's something that's so healing about saying it out loud to another person who's saying, like, no, that's actually very human. That's you know, it's very natural. But also like if you say something truthful and the response is not what you expected because it's like what you did was messed up, that probably just means what you did

is like the wrong thing to be doing. And so maybe just like stop putting that and figure out and get to the bottom how to fix it, which I think is super There's there's two phrases that I think are really important for us all to hear, which is one is normal marital hatred. And that's from Terry Real, who was a great author with the first book of mail Depression, but he talks a lot about relationships. And one is normal marital hatred. We talk about normal relational hatred.

It's actually normal to hate your spouse sometimes in your partner. What can you explain that A litle bit, that's interesting, it's normal. There's if I spend my time to someone, if I am with someone for I've been married for five years, I've been with my partner for twelve, I hate him. Sometimes we have a child together, there's annoying he does. And I can guarantee you if he was here right now, he'd say I hate you sometimes. That does not mean we're bad together. It means that we're human.

And so when we can normalize this that like, the thing about marriage is like it isn't so easy and pretty and perfect. It's actually really really hard. And if we keep thinking that it's so easy and great all the time, we think that we're the ones failing when

it's not always like that. That's a toxic positivity. And then the other phrase, and I think it's important for us to hear is that something that your therapist might do to you is what's not very popular is appropriate shaming, which is if you tell me that you're hurting and abusing other people, I'm gonna tell you stuff. I'm gonna tell you it's abuse. I'm gonna call you out because it's my job to be honest. And maybe no one

said that's you before, so that might feel shameful. But sometimes there is behavior that is abuse of harmful behavior that we should hear about. Yeah. Yeah, I think people get caught up to especially with like the social media

and everything. They see all these pretic relationships and they compare their relationships exactly and people will always say right, like if it's right, then it's going to be easy, or like when you just know when you know right, and that's we don't really believe in that that that takes, you know, it takes, It really takes work in a relationship. No matter what, it's just gonna happen. There are always things that are going to be brought up in your

relationship that you have to work on. So what's your advice to people who are working kind of on a budget right now, because obviously you have to pay for therapy, and so when somebody says, hey, I'm in a relationship, I'm not sure if we need therapy, but it's always good to work on ourselves. What would your advice be if, well, you guys should go every six months or check up every year. Is it's like a doctor's appointment. I'm not

dreaming being facetious. I'm just asking. No. I mean, so, the one thing I would say is that, like what can you do at home? All of the top couples therapises in the world have written books freedom they have to create like a chapter a night. I don't know how much people I read. The realities. It is expensive and it's also very hard. We're also currently in the midst of a mental health crisis in this country, so lines to to use your insurance. It's unbelievable right now.

I mean, people have our we have a company. We have thirty clinicians. We just got down from our wait list. We had a three month wait list. Right there is a lot going on. Tons of people need help, and it's expensive and it's hard to find. But there are free resources. Books, you can read together podcasts, who can listen together e courses online. It's about to say listen to shrink chicks. You can listen to shrinks, but there

are e courses. Tons of therapists have put out free worksheets and there is tons of Yeah, there's content follow all the therapy podcasts and so instagrams. It's not it listen, it's not personalized. There are things that that cannot give to you. But if you're on a budget and it's it's all you have, then you can absolutely collect resources that are free and you and the two of you can work on together. So but you ask a question,

which is like how often should you go in? I don't think you need to go in all the time just for fun. But like I said, the first time, we stay for fun, fun last just like spend for fun um, you know, like what, But what I do think is when it's the first time it's said is we could use a therapist. That's when you go in first time. Because guess what if you go in the first time, you're not in it for a year, you're

in and out. When you wait seven years to come in and you have three kids and there's so much resentment and so much stuff that'sopp and said, it's gonna take a lot longer. So it's one of those things, do we right, if you if you hurt yourself, you break an angle, and then you keep working out on it, what's gonna happen, Gonna get worse. It's gonna take a lot. It's gonna get worse and worse and worse. Right, So you don't think it's like, oh, I have to go in once a year, but I do think you should

do every month something for your relationship. Every month there you go. For a lot of people, especially who have kids, they try to do a two two two rule, which means that I go on a date night every two weeks, I go on a night away every two months, and I go on a trip, a really big trip away every two years. So that's like a thing that people do. So there's all these things that we can do so many maintenance. I hope, I hope the two two two rule we can make that more happen more often. You know,

if you can, that'd be your ideally. Obviously, if you can't, yes, well you guys, thank you so much for joining us. For the listeners out there, This is Emily and Jen be sure to listen to their podcast, Shrink Chicks. Where can we listen to it? On Spotify? Where else? On everything? All the amazing places. I heart radio, Spotify, any place you get a podcast, you can find trip. I'll tell you what. You got three new listeners here between me,

Jared and So. I'm sure hopefully someone number one number one listened right there. The suck Army decides to listen to it. Sounds like there's a lot to learn. Just been listening to you guys. Um, you guys were great. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it. Thank you for having it. Take care anytime you guys want to come back. We're always happy to have you. So we're here for Thank you guys so much for imparting your wisdom. So, hi, guys, take care. Thank you.

Well that's interesting. Did you guys get anything out of that? Yeah? I did it. I mean you've got some bounces on Dawson. And how about you? Would you and Chris ever do a couple of therapy or it's way too soon for that obviously? Well you said, would we Yeah? I think you're both big fans of therapy. So and early on in our relationship, like speaking outside help was de stigmatized

for us completely, especially coming from the show. I think almost everyone who's been on the show sought after therapy at one part and job. Uh so yeah nice, I love it. Yeah. Like I said, I think it's only good things can come from it, and people need to realize that too. It's not like nothing's bad it's going to come from it. Only good things really come from it. So the only bad thing I guess is the chunk that gets taken out of your your wallet every once

in a while. But whatever, that is what it is. I wish we could have I wish we could have asked it. They've seen any relationships that they're like, no, be done, or like, at what point our relationships done? Especially in the dating world when you haven't made that

commitment yet. Are there things that happened that it's like I may love you, but this won't work true, right, like long distance or something we get a lot of long distance questions or even yeah, like fights, you know, or like even we could have gotten input on like the Amber heard Johnny depth thing or something like that. I don't know that would have been interesting, but you guys, thank you so much. Interesting, thanks for thanks for co hosting this episode with me and um Anna. We looked.

I'm gonna follow you on Instagram right now. I'm gonna look for the updates from you and Chris as often as you guys are willing to post them. Um can't wait for you, can't wait for the agement. Would you ever propose to Chris or are you expecting him to propose to you? Oh? No, Oh my god. We right when we saw the Thomas Becka thing. We love that for them. I love whatever any couple needs. But we look at each other and we got that will never be Just like I like the tradition, I want a

big fat ring. I want you to make a big deal out of want to be with me for the rest of your life. That's fair. I saw that and I was like, those sons of pitches. They took my idea, so it's what we had. You'll be like, we'll have to think, yeah, that's gonna do it, and you rock. Thank you so much for joining us. This is great. Thank you to the sucky datas out there for listening to us. Be sure to tune in on Sunday where

maybe we suck just a little bit less. Follow help by suck at Dating on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcast