Open Ended Questions

favorite part, we have our great guest. He is um podcast host to Deer Therapist and you can obviously listen to that wherever you get your podcast. Guy Winch is on the program today. Sound we sound like real professionals when we say that, um, so make sure you tune in for that. But before that, Dean, are you in a car? Are you in a house? Where the hell are you? I'm in a house. I'm sitting in front of my Xbox playing some color. So if you if I get a little distracted, just know that I'm you know,

I'm getting some some headshots over here. So yeah, you just need to turn the Xbox off. There's too much distraction. That's why I like I that's you know, there's good things about working from home, but there's also bad things from working at home. One of the good things is you can wear pajamas to work. The bad news is there is about a million distractions jun your house that just keeps you so unmotivated. I'm not saying that to you. I'm saying that to me at the end of the day.

We've been doing this podcast for a long time, right, I think almost like two or three years. You and I together for two years, I would say, And through those two years, I've really learned to just turn my brain off as soon as you start talking and just kind of tuned back in like five or six minutes later, just because you go off on these tangents, you know. So this is a great way for me to kind of like remain like keep my neurons firing while also

not paying attention to you speak. So it's like kind of a win win in a weird way. Great, I'm glad to hear that. Anyway, Let's get into our first topic of the day. Beckham Martinez, bachelor A long um uh if I think everybody who probably is a bachelor fandows who Becca Martinez is? Uh? She uh just had an article written that said that her and her boyfriend have actually had talks about having an open relationship. So uh it says that, you know, Becca obviously is not

afraid to embrace her nontraditional views on relationships. She's done this many times. During appearance on Tuesday's episode of Dear Media is Not Skinny but Not Fat podcast. That's the first time I'm reading that. I like that title. Uh. Becca opened up about her relationship with her boyfriend Grayston Leonard who they have one child there, she's pregnant with their second, and they talked about having an open relationships. She said, we've talked before about it, Uh, you know,

wanting to get married. I don't know if I want to have sex with you for the rest of my life. So at least Becca is very honest. She was quoted as that. She also quoted said, and so we've talked about that maybe one day we could have an open relationship. Said that her boyfriend, Grayston first of all, great name, God, I love that name, uh, said that he was possibly open to the idea. Becca went on to say he's

not that jealous. She went on to add that no matter what the future may hold, she and Graceton will always be committed to one another. Uh. They have two kids together, obviously, like we just talked about, they love each other. Uh, they want to be together, but they might want to be in an open relationship. So, Dean, what are your thoughts about being in an open relationship? You ever talked to Calin about it? I've I have not talked to Calin about it seriously, maybe like jokingly

or whatever. I don't know. I think, Uh, if that's what you want to do, by by all means more power to you. It's like a very progressive way of thinking. Maybe not progressive, but just like kind of against the grain modern modern day. I feel like I feel like more people think about it today than thirty years ago, right, And I think that the reason that they even considered as an as a possibility is because they have the kids.

Like it just kind of it's like, look, will always be committed to each other and these kids, but like, let's say we have these desires elsewhere than just like no that you're allowed to explore it. And I think that the way that I at least understood. That quote was like, we're not in an open relationship now, but like we possibly could, like I could see ourselves entering one later on down the line, which, like, I think

that's a really a mature way of thinking. It's like, you know, you don't know how you're gonna be feeling about things in five or ten years, but you do know that you're gonna stay committed to your children. Um, And so I mean, I respect, I respect that. Would you ever be in an open relationship? Um, I have no idea it's possible. I don't really I don't see why I would ever want to be in an open relationship. Um, But I don't, like I said, I don't know how I'm going to feel in five or ten years at

this moment in my life. No, Like I don't really care enough. Uh. Like I think Becca kind of touches

on it in that quote. It's like, I think the only reason to pursue an open relationship is because, for whatever reason, you're not being fulfilled sexually, right, And so it's like, as long as you're having that fulfilled, and I don't really see the reason to be in an open relationship unless you kind of just get off on the on the you know, random people thing, which totally fine too, but uh, at the moment, No, I don't necessarily see like I could. I could, I could see

myself maybe one day. Like, I'm not really a very jealous person at this point in my life, so it's like, I don't like that wouldn't really bother me too much. So let me put a hypothetical in your mind, say, like somebody was Um, of course people are just going to assume this is me, but I'm literally just spit bowling off the top of my head. Say someone was in a committed relationship and they were having thoughts of cheating on their spouse because they were so sexually attracted

somebody else. Do you think the right thing to do would be to either try to bury that and push it to the side, or discuss with your partner about possibly bringing someone else in for maybe not an open relationship, but maybe some openness in the bedroom. Yeah. No, that's an interesting question. I don't know if you should necessarily talk about bringing I mean, obviously, who the heck knows

what they're talking about. I sure don't, But my interpretation of it would be don't don't suppress it, don't talk about bring them into the bedroom down to either of the things. But in the middle ground, you could be like you can approach your partner and be like, hey, like I have these, uh, these thoughts or these feelings

about someone else. Uh, let's just talk about it. And I think once you just talk about it, that hopefully would be enough to kind of like alleviate any type of feelings that you might have for that other person, whatever it might be, or even just like you know, the openness and honesty and all that kind of stuff I think kind of like helps you, like sometimes it's not like a sexual desire. It's just like you kind

of like need to just like talk it out. And so that's kind of my take on it, at least. What about you, What do you think? Well, my neighbor uh is a gay man, very very sweet human being. He was in a thrupple, which is an open relationship with three people, uh since we moved in, and they have since broken up, and then two of the three stayed together while the third moved out. But they seem

to like it. I don't know. I think it's so hard to navigate when you first of all relationships are difficult to start off with, like, you know, I love my wife, but obviously it's you know, there's certain given takes that you have in any relationship. The idea of adding something else in there's somebody else in there and adding to that stress who that's a heavy burden. So I looked up pros and cons of being in an open relationship. This is from a website called Polly coach

dot com. So it says some of the pros. First one, personal growth. Open relationship lifestyle offers a sea of opportunities of personal growth. Being in an open relationship has taught me how to be more true to myself while staying in connection with my partner and with others. They also say, my alarms going off, my laundry is done. I gotta change that anyway. Uh. They say more variety is another pro. Do you ever think that you could have your cake

and eat it too? People in relationships can say that. He They also say that improved communication is a pro. Communication is the biggest area of focus for anyone practicing ethical nonmonogamy. Um. They also okay, so now we're getting into the cons. Obviously, the first one feelings feelings and emotions are a natural part of being human. All feelings come and go. That's the natural nature of the game. So obviously jealousy would be a big one. Logistics is

another one. Uh. Saying love is infinite but time is finite is commonly used by people who practice ethical nonmonogamy. I don't know exactly what that means. Love is infinite, but time is finite. Well, yeah, but times finite. I know what that means, but I guess I'm trying to understand in the context of an open relationship what that means. Um. But they go on to say, there are only so

many hours of the day, work, family, relationships, all of that. Uh, there's just not enough time to do everything that we want to do, let alone add another person to the mix. Uh. So obviously you know time is constrained when you're an open relationship. They also say limited resources when things get tough. One of the main reasons why this apparent. This person says they choose to work with the open relationship niche is because it is a very undeserved population. Underserved population.

Excuse me. There are resources available online, articles, books, podcast, bada ba dah blah. A couple of struggling. It's hard to find someone to talk to who can both understand their situation. So pretty much what this person is saying is that, like, it's great, you get more you know. The pros are, you get more variety, you get to have your cake and eat it too, which is always

a positive. But apparently this helped them in communication as well, adding another person, which makes sense because you all have to be kind of on the same page if you're all going to be in this open relationship and be happy in it. But obviously logistics, jealousy, and lack of time with both people, uh is some of the cons which I can totally understand. So I mean, good for them. I don't know if I could ever be in an open relationship I get uh, I just overthink everything in general.

So the idea of adding another person in their wolf plus like, you know, I'm just not you know, I would feel like the worst of the three, you know what I mean? Yeah, my self confidence couldn't handle an open relationship. I would be constantly insecure. Wait one second, let me just pause, call do you here real quick? That's kind of exactly what I was talking too. I'm just kidding. Uh uh no, Yeah, I think the insecurities definitely play play a big factor in it. But it's like, okay,

like picture this ten years down the line. You know, you and actually married, you have we'll say two kids at the time, Um, and things are getting like a little stale. Maybe that would be like an interesting way for you to kind of come in and like reinvigorate the you know. The prime allerges is the is like an open relationship the same thing as a threesome. Um. I don't think, I mean, is a relationship same thing

as like a one night stand? I know, I agree, I think it's a little bit different, but it sounds like, well, an open relationship is being open to having threesomes. I don't think an open relationship means throubles only. You know. It's like you're a couple and you just like kind of swing every once in a while. Um, and I have friends who are in the swinging community, which is kind of funny to say. Uh, and it just it sounds really interesting. They're happy with it, but it really

does boil down to communication. UM. And the big thing that at least I've understood with all of that stuff is beyond that, make sure that both people want to do it, and not that one person wants to do it and the other person is doing it because that person wants to do it. Because if that's the case,

then that's how that's how bad feelings start to fester. Um. But if both people want to do it, I think it's a lot better rather than one person doing it just to like make the other person happy, you know what I mean. Well, that's why I think this person said one of the proses communication because it forces you to talk about things with your partners, because, like you said, you have to be all on the same page or

else jealous, he's gonna take over. People are going to get insecure, and it's just gonna turn things into a far worse situation. Right. But if you if you wait till after the fact to get on the same page, then you're kind of are like looking back with regret and remorse. But if you're on the same page before even getting into that situation, uh, then that's obviously a

much better place to be, you know what I mean. Like, Yeah, so I don't know, I mean, I I can't say it's never gonna happen for me personally, I don't I don't expect it to I don't plan on it ever happening, but it's freaking We've all seen how crazy the world can get, so you never know what you might want to do before the world explodes. Yeah, that's true. You know you gotta check certain things off the bucket list before the asteroid hits right, right, right, And that's on

the list. I mean it's low on the list, don't get me wrong. Priority is very low on it. But if I were to make a list I probably would have something like that on the list at some point. Yeah, why not? You know you gotta try everything once, right, right, So yeah, I think we kind of agree on that. Um. I also read up on this New York Times article because you and I are obviously in relationships, so we

don't know, like too much about the dating world. So I looked up the dating world during the pandemic and there was this New York Times article that was pretty interesting, said true stories of hooking up during COVID nineteen, and it just went through different stories of anonymous people and it is pretty crazy when you think about it, Dean, because like you and I were single for a while.

Dating was great but also sucked many times, you know, going on dates, the the nervousness of of meeting someone or not knowing who they are, where they come from. Now add in a pandemic, and like, some of these stories are crazy, Like one person went on a date and she got like berated by a dude who was kind of making fun of her for asking him to keep his mask on. Just the idea of going on a date and staying six ft apart is something that will never cease to amaze me. I don't know how

people are dating right now. Like I get nervous when I encounter someone I don't know and we're like still six ft apart, but I still get weirded out. I feel bad for people who have to go on dates right now. It sucks. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I agree.

I think I was talking with my buddies the other day who is single, and I was like, dude, it's got to be absolutely brutal, and he like, uh, most of my friends are like self sufficient enough, like the single ones where they're like yea, like I don't really need to be in a relationship. I don't think that either of us were ever really like that either, but it would just like it would suck. It would absolutely suck. So if you're listening to this podcasts and you're single, um,

maybe tell us how you're getting through this quarantine. You can email us I suck at Dating at iHeart media dot com. I think it would be cool to get like firsthand accounts of how people are coping and how they're going on dates, um, all that kind of stuff. And obviously, like California just opened up. I think today is the first day that they've allowed outdoor dining since like October or something like that. Yeah, it's finally starting

to open up. Even though like this new strand of COVID apparently is more contagious than the the other one. This this I think South African strand they're calling it. I'm not sure, dude, I don't know. It just seems like it gets worse every day and we're never getting out of it. But I hope I'm wrong about that. I'm also a pessimist. Um, I'm just curious, like I want to know from the people out there are more

people like sexting or doing like zoom sex chats. I'm very curious about that because I feel like there's always a stigma against sexting, and now I feel like it should be more prevalent than than any other time in history. Uh. There's another another friend of mine, UM who she she doesn't like sext but she sends like like sexy gifts to the people that she's talking to. It's very strange. Um, But I mean, I'm sure there's gotta be more than that.

But Jared, so yesterday before we before we jump into our guests who you mentioned above, Guy Winch, we also took these apology quizzes. You and I, Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, well we need to discuss that at least a little bit before getting into our guests. So we took Jared I both took apology quizzes on the five Love Languages website. The five that it would be a good idea. I I think, I don't know.

I don't know what it tells about me. Well, so, so for the listeners out there, go to the five Level Languages website and take the apology quiz if you're interested. But there are five ways to apologize properly, according to this website. UM expressing regret, accepting responsibility, making restitution, genuinely repenting, or requesting forgiveness and you take this test. It probably takes like ten or fifteen minutes, and it like it rates which way that you like to apologize and you

like other people to apologize to you. Yeah, it's like a psychological test because it was like, I don't know if you noticed this, but every question they asked that it gave five different answers of the way people like the ways you want people to respond, But all five ways were very similar. They were just kind of worded differently with different phrases. So it kind of felt like, I forget what that test is called, but it's the

tests you have to take before you go on the Bachelor. Um, it's a psychological exam where questions are are very repetitive but worded differently to see you know how sane or insane you are. So do you remember which like when taking this apology test, do you remember which one you

apologize properly or like the way you apologize? Well, yeah, I mean I it's pretty easy, like you read the question and then you read the five answers, and after a couple of questions you start to realize which answers are, Like you can tell It's like compartmentalizing the responses and then it's going to give you back an answer depending on which one you answered the most. You know, yeah, I see yours. I see yours. Now your primary apology, Dean,

your primary apology language was accept responsibility. Yeah, it's funny too, because I sent that to Klin to take the test as well. Um, I got accepting responsibility, you got expressing regret, and Calin actually got expressing regret as well. Well, all the kids get expressing regret. Obviously, I guess, but man, I don't know. Like it's funny because Kylin and even

had a conversation about this at breakfast today. It's like I need I don't need you to express or regret or or guilt or remorse, Like I know you feel bad, but just like tell me you made a mistake and let's move past. Like I just need ownership of the mistake that was made, like just be like, oh crap, I messed up. I'm so sorry, Like uh, it was like a bone head move. I want to do it again. Like that's all I really need to hear. I don't want to say I feel so guilt. See what you

please forgive me. I'll do anything like I don't want to hear that. I don't want you to like gravel. I just want you to be like, I messed up, I'm sorry. Yeah. You know. The funny thing about this is I feel like I'm more like you with accepting

responsibility expecting responsibility, than I am expressing regret. Because al right, here's the definition of somebody who has uh the apology language of expressing regret says, for most people, an apology is not really an apology unless they hear the words i'm sorry. For many of us, in order to truly forgive, we need to see that the person who has injured us regrets what they have done. This is the most essential of the elements of an apology, but some people

feel it more keenly than others. And then the definition of someone like yourself whose language is accepting responsibility is we can all find good reasons and explanations for why we behave badly. She was pushing my buttons, I was running late, she hurt my feelings. Whatever the reason, it doesn't change the fact that what we did was wrong or hurtful to a person. Isn't that kind of like the same thing oppose to that it is very similar. I think I think they're similar. I think they're They're

a little bit different though. My My big argument against expressing regret as an apology a way to apologize, is it kind of like it exonerates bad behavior, Like I could do whatever I want and then just be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again. I apologize like I feel so bad, boom forgiven. Like it just it's it just seems like a like a like a way to wipe the slate clean without really

putting any work in. Just by saying I'm sorry wipes the slate clean, you know, and at least by taking ownership, you're like kind of like maybe processing it and internalizing it a little bit more and be like, Okay, I messed up. And then to me when I hear someone say that, I'm like, great, you know you messed up, and so now you know, if we're in a similar situation again, you know how you already messed up before, which makes me think that you are less likely to

make the same mistake and mess up again. That's kind of how I look at it. Oh, I agree with you. It's way better to except responsibility but I'm such a pansy and those situations, if somebody just expresses regret, I immediately forgive them, and even though I know they're gonna screw me over later anyway, So it doesn't even matter. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. But I mean, I guess it's a good thing, Like obviously you want to be able to have like empathy,

uh and forgive people like that. And I that's so an extent to an extent totally, and it definitely depends like a lot of the questions on the quiz um some of them and you're like, like a lot of the times I wanted to answer like I don't care enough about this, like you don't need to apologize, and then some of them were like pretty severe, um, And so it was just one of those things where it's like, obviously it depends on a case by case basis, but

it's interesting. So check it out. It's at the Five Love Languages website. It's the apology quiz um. I got accepting responsibility, Jared got expressing regret along with Kaylin. I was hoping that you were gonna have Ashley ticket because I'm curious what she would be too. What do you

think she would be? I think that Ashley would be I don't know, probably the same as me expressing regret because I don't know, I mean genuinely repenting and that doesn't sound like her, requesting forgiveness that doesn't sound like her, and then accepting responsibility. She's more like me. If somebody just says I'm sorry, She's like, okay, that's fine and just moves on. But let's ask our our guest, Guy Winch, about this. I want to get him on the podcast

as well. Of course, he's the host of Deer Therapists the podcast, so we're gonna have Guy coming up in just a second. But before he comes onto the podcast, let's take a quick break. Hey, welcome back to help I suck at dating. We have our very special guest, Guy Winch joining us. He is, of course, taping season two of his I Heart Radio podcast Dear Therapist with co host Laurie, which, of course you can go listen to wherever you listen to your podcast. He's a licensed psychologist,

Guy Winch. Ladies and gentlemen, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Thanks. It's always so weird introducing people over zoom because like we're in the where we're in the like the the podcast studio. People like applause. There's more people now. It's like, hey, hey, I was giving them some snaps over here. I think snapps are like the that's the new applause. I think, yeah, So Guy, tell us a little bit about what you do and what

you talk about on Dear Therapists. I'm a psychologist. I write an advice column for Ted called Dear Guy, and I do this podcast with Lori Gottlieber's advice column is for the Atlantic, and so with both therapists, what we do is we bring on our guests every week, we read their letter, then we discuss it as a therapist consultation, so you get to be a fly on the wall and here how therapists talk about things. Then we bring

the person on into an actual session with them. Then we give them actionable advice they have to do within a week. Then we unpack it as therapists do when you get to hear that, and then we have them come back, which is what the what's different about our show. We have them come back and tell us, so did they do it and how did it go and what happened,

and then we have a discussion about that. So you actually get to hear full arc of what their issue is, what we think their issue is, and then we tell them to do stuff and they do it and we hear how it went. What types of issues do you typically see these couples having, No, it's not couples. It's individuals. Mostly. We have a few couples, but it can be we did a mother daughter recently. It can be two people. Um. But really it's it's advice. So it's pretty much everything.

It can be about relationships, it can be about work, it can be about the heartbreak, it can be about dating. We've got a lot of dating stuff. Um. So really it's about, um, pretty much anything you would expect to talk to a therapist about or write an advice columnist about. So, can you give me an example of like some of the stories that you've heard and then some of the advice that you give them, And then has anybody failed?

Has anybody not come back a week later? Or is a week a long enough time for someone to accomplish what you're asking them to do. First of all, that's a good question. So we as you know, when you do therapy, you it's a process. You don't expect somebody to have to do something within a week. And also you don't expect us to have to as a therapists, to be able to tell you how to solve your problems in a week. But um, here'sn't it so our first episode, I think one of the most popular ones

is was a woman called Sherina. She was heartbroken, she got dumped, and she was trying to figure out like what happened, why that keeps happening happening to her and we and what it turns out, which is often what turns out is somebody comes and writes a lot because they think their issue is X, but it turns out we think it's something else. And we were talking with her about why she doesn't realize that she's trying to go for these guys who she's not suited for. They

have they seem very very different. She's trying to bend herself into a pretzel to fit without even asking herself

whether she wants to, whether they fit her. And so there was some unfinished business with this person, and it was related to her history with her family, and we had her um Actually they had to it's COVID, so they had to like exchange the stuff, you know, Like he had stuff left at her, she had stuff left at his, and then COVID hit, so they weren't able to She wasn't able to do that part, but she

was able to think very differently about what happened. We've had one guy, for example, whose wife cheated on him and then asked to come back. And how feeling was She's back because it's convenient, not because she really loves him, And so we had him ask a tough questions like do you really care if that guy that you know said he wasn't willing to leave his wife for you if he said tomorrow that he would, would you go with him? Like really ask the tough questions and hear

what she had to say. So it depends on the case. We'll ask people to do certain things. We'll ask people to write, people to confront the people with whom they're having. The issue really depends on the case. But what's interesting about it is that a you really learn something about yourself because relationships are pretty universal and the issues are pretty universal, but be you get to hear what real therapy sounds like, and you get to hear how therapists think.

And I think that that's a nice window into a process. We don't really get to him see or hear much about how have you noticed the like the I don't want to call them problems, but like the reasons people are coming to you guys, have you noticed them shift from pre COVID to you know, the past year or so of all of this, Like what is there a noticeable shift in like the issues that people are looking to to amend or is it more of the same stuff?

You think, well, it's a good question, but actually the issues don't change because the issues are the issues, but COVID complicates every single one of them almost really right, you know, Like one woman for a holiday episode, we had a woman who just got divorced, and she and her parents divorced, so she usually had to do the guilt about do I got to mom? Do I got

to dad? What do I do? And this one she actually, because of college, she actually couldn't, so it was a great opportunity for her to reclaim the holidays and actually, for the first time in her life do the holidays the way she wanted with her friends, and in a way that was joyful for her and joyful it was. It was great. She She not only sent a follow up, she sent us an email with pictures from the zooms of everything she did. And she was so excited and thrilled.

It was really nice to see COVID was an opportunity for her in that way. Yeah, yeah, nice, It's it's nice to see that people are still being able to make the most I guess out of a bad situation. Um, what about I've always kind of wondered this, uh so before before any of this came about, right, you have You've been working I'm sure, uh in psychology and in

therapy for a long time. How does like becoming a quote unquote celebrity therapist in a way or at least like like publicizing a lot of your findings and all that kind of stuff, does that change like your full your like your approach to therapy at all or or I'm just always so not not confused, but just curious about how um it like might affect your just your job in general, you know what I mean? Yeah, And

you know what's interesting about that? My um, I guess got more attention when my first TED talk came out, it was like five or six years ago, and it went viral and uh, you know, it's like hand eleven million views and and um. Then another one came out and it went viral. And so I get a lot of people coming to me, and many of them from internationally, and many of them just one a one off session. They want one session with me, one hour with me to deal with something. And that's not a typical model

you get in a therapy office, per se. Why I love it, um, and why I really like it is because as a therapist, usually you have to kind of hold back a bit. You have to time what you want to say. Is the person ready to hear it or not? In an hour, you don't hold back at all. I get to kind of really let fly. I get to really just put it out there, say exactly what I think is going on, blunt as all hell, and uh and and that is kind of liberating for me

as a therapist. And then that transfers very nicely to the podcast in that way. You wrote an article on Psychology Today entitled why some couples should argue via email, which sounds like people shouldn't argue over email, but you say they should. Why First of all, Um, email by email, I mean email, text, electronically really anything, UM. And I can't tell you how many couples argue that way today,

whether I recommend it or not. They're in the house and they're having an argument from different rooms over text rather than just get up and talk to one another. It's very, very, very common for some couples. It's a good idea because those couples are ones in which they escalate so quickly. The argument escalates so rapidly when they're in person that they don't have time to think to edit and texts. Um. Really, because text is more than email.

Text slows it down. They have to type, it takes it makes them slow down, They have to they have an opportunity to read what they wrote before they send it. If they have the you know, the impulse control to do that, it actually slows it down and it prevents escalation. You can't just blurt something out in text. You can, but then you might think about it and you can. You can't stuff words back into your mouth, but you

can e raise them on a text. So for couples who are very fiery who escalate very quickly and go from zero to cursing and yelling within six seconds. That might be a good idea until they learn how to argue more productively. What about that there's that key and Peel skit where they're having a communication via text. I

don't know if you've seen this guy. Uh, And one person sends a text that's like completely innocuous and harmless and like almost borderline friendly, but then the other person receives it as him being like snarky and and and standoffish and aggressive. Uh, So what do you say about that? Like how how people can misinterpret the texts just by simply reading the same words but just in a different tone,

you know. And it's something that's again ridiculously common. And the problem is we don't we we forget, we don't remember that in text there is no tonality, there's no facial expression. You can't modify what you say by tone.

You can say things that with tones sound radically different, like, uh, you know, you haven't asked me that in a whole week, you consider very sweetly, or like, you haven't asked me that in a week, or you and and how that's read depends on the other person, and so we misinterpret, miscommunicate both in terms of how we interpret a text and set and in terms of how we send and what we think our intention is versus what comes across. It happens all the time. Now, I just want to

say one thing. As a therapist, I love texts because when people sit in a session and they tell me and then they said this, I'm sorry, don't tell me

what they said. Let me read it, and then I can see and I'm like, no, no no, no, I I would read that entirely differently because I don't have your baggage, so I don't have to it doesn't hit my nerve, and then I can read it with a very different tone and people go, oh, I never Yeah, I can see that now, But it never occurred to me that it could be meant entirely in a different manner than what I perceived. So people really have to remember that

it's very inaccurate of communication. Because there's no tonality, no facial expression of body language, we can misinterpret easily. Yeah. I heard a great piece of advice one time where people who rant and rave on Twitter, they say, type it out, save it into a draft. Go to sleep. If you wake up the next morning and you still

want to tweet it, then hit the tweet button. Um. Yes, So also, doctor, you talk about prioritizing your physical health, possibly over your emotional health, which is obviously quite different than what we hear a lot. So what do you by that, I mean the opposite effect what I what I say is that we do that. That is, in fact what we do. We tend to prioritize our physical health over emotional health, and that's a problem. Sorry, I

met thee Never mind. So you're saying prioritize your emotional health over your physical health, but a lot of people do. I am saying, treat them equally. My I'm an identical twin, and so that comes from me feeling like, hey, these things are like twins are physical and not emotional health. We really should be giving them an equal amount of attention.

But the attention goes to our physical health. When we wake up in the morning and you have a twins in a muscle, or you're feeling a little off, or you have a little bit of a fever or whatever it is, you have a thing in your throat, you immediately pay attention to it. And you're like, oh, maybe I longer running because my my coat is hurting, or you know, maybe I better, you know, wear a scarf because I've got a little bit of a sore throat. We just naturally monitor, right, We we brush our teeth

and flows twice a day. What is the action we do for our emotional health on a daily basis? There's none? What isn't What do we teach our kids about emotional hygiene? Nothing. There is a way in which we completely ignore our emotional and psychological health. We're completely ignorant about it. If you get a cut on your arm, if anyone gets a cut, they anyone at past the age of whatever can tell whether that requires a stitch, a bandage, or

an emergency room. But when we get hurt emotionally or psychologically, we don't even know if it's a wound. We don't even know what to do. We are terribly, terribly behind my sophistication. I think the issue is that a lot of people just don't know what to do. Like with physical health, there's you know, you can go to the gym, you can go to for a run, you can do whatever you need to do. So what are some of

the things that people can do to help their emotional health. So, first of all, there is a ton of information out there, and but we tend to not look for it. We tend to not and we tend to ignore it when we hear it because we think, you know, that's his bullshit. We don't pay attention to it, and and we should. So for example, one of the when it comes, let's say, to rejection. It's one of the things I write about in in in one of my books and else from

first AIG. So rejection, when we get rejected, one of the most instinctual things we do romantically, right dating show Romantically, one of the instinctual things we do is we start to figure out why it happened, and that usually goes to I'm not this enough for I'm not that enough, for if I were only this or that, then the person wouldn't have rejected me. We we literally catalog all

are are perceived faults and shortcomings. And that's at a time when our self esteem is hurting, and we're actually hitting it and hurting it even more when it's already hurting, when we should actually be doing the opposite. When you get rejected, you should revive your self esteem and your feelings of self worth by actually focusing on what you do bring to the table to feel better about yourself,

not focusing on what you don't to feel worse. Um and and so it's just in an instinct we have which we need to override, but if we don't know to overwrite, it will indulge in the self pity and the self bashing at the time where we need to do exactly the opposite. Yeah, that's interesting to me, just because I equate. I think maybe I'm just vain a lot of my emotional health to my physical health, Like when i feel like I'm gaining weight or I'm not working out a lot, I feel mentally a lot worse.

So I feel like they almost go hand in hand at times. You talked about your physical appearance and not your physical health because where pounds doesn't necessarily do that much for your physical health. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm talking about the image. Yeah, more image, right, and for you and look, and we each have different things. So so for somebody the for somebody for whom the image is important, it's a part of their work and it's an important part of the of what they do,

and it's important. That's going to matter a lot um And for somebody who's an accountant, um, their ability to operate with numbers and pay attention to detail is going to matter a lot. Right. So it kind of depends. But our physical health and our emotional health fully entwined. Here's one example. UM, when people are lonely, we tell to think of loneliness. Says, well, you know, that's something that happens to the elderly. The loneliest people these days

are eighteen to thirty four year olds. That's the loneliest group, the people who report being most lonely, way more than the geriatrics. Why do you think that is? I'll say in a minute. But here's the finding. When you're chronically lonely, it increases your likelihood of an early death by thirty something percent. Lonely people die sooner, get sicker, live shorter lives, have more dementia, and I could go on and on and on. It does a massive number. It literally kills

you over time. We don't think of it. We think of it as a psychological emotional thing, but it's very much also a physical thing. Because those those two systems

are tightly tightly linked. Now, why young people are feeling more lonely these days is because loneliness is a comparison between what your expected emotional connection to others are and what your reality is, and when you're really that is I have five dred friends and one thousand followers and all these contexts, and I don't feel that any one of them really sees me. I don't feel like the phone,

you know, I haven't gotten the text. No one's chipped in on me in two days, and supposedly all these people around me, I guess no one cares. And when I look on social media, everyone else seems delighted, happy and connected. It makes you feel really, really, really bad. And so that social media can be something that is a comparison tool, and it can make people feel like crap because when they're feeling bad, everyone else looks happy. It's highly curated and that's why. But that's not something

you think about when you're feeling lonely and invisible. Well let's talk about that then. So you talk about emotionally healthy, right, Uh, what what do you think about people dating that are in an emotionally unhealthy state? Like, do you think that's something they should be doing. Do you think they should they should prioritize that first and then start dating, or do you think it's okay for them to kind of pursue you and look for a partner while they're in

like that vulnerable unhealthy state. It's a great question. I think it depends on what the emotionally unhealthy state is actually about in that way, because if it's about, for example, feeling lonely or feeling a lack of companionship or really wanting a partner not having one, actually dating could be

the very thing they need to feel better. If it's about they're thoroughly depressed but not for that reason, or they're dealing with an anxiety situation, or they're having other kinds of problems of grief or whatever, um, then maybe they need to get to a better place to be more emotionally available. Um. But it really it's it's one of those it depends on swers the psychologists give all the time, and I apologize for that, it kind of does.

Are there are there signs that we could look for in like partners or other people that might signal to us that they're emotionally unhealthy in any sort of way? Yeah, but here's the thing. You know, research on couples shows that if you watch five minutes of a couple having an argument, UM, a couple of therapists like myself can predict within nineties something percenter accuracy whether that couple is going to get divorced, because the signs are very obvious,

and the signs and dating are very obvious. I always say that dating is like um and and relationship dynamics. Your relationship is like cement. When the cement is wet, you can form it, you can make changes in it. But when it's dry, you're really got to take a hammer and chisel to make any changes in it. And and when you're dating, the cement drives very very quickly, So within a very quick amount of time, you've fallen

into a specific pattern with that person. And now to change that pattern is gonna be much more difficult than if you have changed at the beginning. And one of the mistakes a lot of dating people make it is like, yeah, that bothers me, but I'll deal with it later. It's gonna be way harder to deal with it later. I want to kind of take a couple of strapy now with with calin and see, uh, get someone's professional opinion.

I think it'd be curious just to kind of get a better understanding for it, because, like you said, it's like, especially when you start dating someone, I feel like we do a lot of these things sub conscious lee, uh, and it kind of takes someone like a third party to kind of observe it, uh and and tell you what you're doing, because who the heck is going to

be able to identify those things themselves? Most most of the time, I would say, right, well you can, but you actually have to stop for a minute and talk about it together, because you know, she probably has observations about you. You probably have observations about her. Some of them are occurred, some of them not, but the discussion could be interesting. Gotcha have you? Are you familiar to all with the five love languages and like that whole

kind of yeah. Yeah, So Jared and I just before, just before bringing you on, we were talking about how just yesterday we did the forms of apology or what was it called Jerry or something like that, right, it was your apology language. Apparently there's a different apology languages, and Dana and I took a quiz to tell us which language apology language we speak and so and so there are five of them. I'm sure, I'm sure you

know them. But it's expressing regret, accept responsibility, make restitution, genuinely repent or request forgiveness. Uh and so, I don't know. Just an interesting thing that Jared and I were talking about and I had my partner do hers as well. Hers was expressed regret and so is Jared's mind was

accept responsibility. Um, how how do you kind of feel when you maybe not even couples, but just like when you see people that maybe struggle with with that type of stuff like forgiveness, um, accepting responsibility, expressing and get all that kind of stuff. Do you see that kind of as like a roadblock in couples ever? Oh? For sure. And I see there was a roadblock a knife and people come to do do it. But I have a slightly different take on it. My take on apologies as the following.

The mistake people make when they're apologizing is they make apology about them. In other words, they offer the rationalizations and the excuses and the context of why I did what I did, etcetera. If if it's an authentic apology, if you're really trying to get the person to forgive you, the apology needs to be about them. In other words, you need to be able to convey to them that you get what their experience was, what they felt about what you did, not why you did what you did,

but if they felt about it. If you can convey, hey, I can understand how upsetting it must be that I did it, and how frustrated you must have been, because I know you've said that to me before and you have to keep doing it and I'm trying not to. But I can see how upsetting that must have been for you, and I can tell you I'm really gonna try harder. If that person feels like, oh, yeah, you know what, you really do get it, they'll forgive you. If they feel you're just talking about you, they might

say it, but they won't really. So if I had a guess, I would say, guys, apology language is genuinely repenting. I'm just gonna go ahead. That's my guess. Actually, my answer to those five is all of the above. Okay, that's fair, that's kind of the beautiful. That's kind of the beautiful thing about it. Right, There is no wrong answer. They're all right, just based on No, I'm saying you

need all of those components as research. There's science about what constitutes a useful apology when they really work, and it's when they have all of those ingredients. Okay, that's fair, I would agree. Well, doctor, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your insight. Make sure everybody listening go check out your guy which is podcast of course, it is called Dear Arapists, which you can listen to anywhere you get podcasts. You can also go

to Guy Winch dot com check out his books. You have tons of good stuff up there. Thank you so much for joining us, doctor, We really appreciate it. My pleasure and thanks for having me. Hey, Ricky, it's your birthday today. Happy birthday, birthday all right, and we are back after Jared and Ashley's wonderful cameo moment. Thank you for sticking around through that. If you guys want the books, you can go to cameo dot com. Ashley and Jared. We do birthday shout outs, we can sing, we can dance,

we can do whatever you'd like. Really, that was that was tough to get through. But hey, we're all stronger people because of it, and before we get into the emails, I would like to say, email us your dating situations. I suck at dating at iHeart media dot com. Good, bad, ugly. We want to hear them all. I suck at dating at iHeart media dot com. Shoot us over some emails. Uh, Mark, I think I heard to chime in. Do you want

to get to our first email? I do. These are challenging today, but hopefully you know they're looking for the male perspective. Hopefully we can give him some. Trina, Yeah, we do, but I'm not sure what to say about these dudes. Trina says, I've been married for five years now. When we were dating, and what made me want to marry this man in the first place was his constant desire to speak, touch, a firmer relationship. He was low

key obsessed with me, but I loved it. Also might be important to note I was his first everything girlfriend, kiss, et cetera. So we got married, and I noticed on our honeymoon he's already different. A few months into marriage, he decides he's made a huge mistake. It's too hard being a husband. He doesn't feel the same about me. So my question is, how is this even normal. How can the switch be flipped so quickly, so dramatically? Is this a man's psychology? That the chase is over and

now it's boring? But what do you guys answer? I already asked some questions, like she's still married apparently because five years five years now, and it was right after the honeymoon that things kind of fell apart. So I'm not sure what's going on, but she'd like to get some inside of their husband's psyche. Poor Trina, you've been married. I hope you haven't been miserable for five years. I

would be depressing. I think this is a classic case of of like I don't know if you guys discover this, but like with your first everything, kiss, girlfriend, taking your virginity, so on and so forth, like you you you, I think you get like lost in the moment a little bit. They always talk about like puppy love. I feel like that's like to the tenth degree when you're dealing with someone who's like been your first everything, and then I think you kind of discover, well, wait a minute, like

what are other people? Like? You get curious and you want to kind of figure things out on your own. That's what happened with me at least where I was dating this girl, she's my first everything. And then I got my early twenties and is like, well, you know, I'm attracted to other women and I kind of want to play the field a little bit and I want to date around. And so I found myself kind of falling out of love with my first girlfriend because of this.

And I'm curious if this happened to this guy too. Yeah, I mean I think you just, uh if that's the case, which I mean, well, honestly, probably is pretty pretty good chance that that is the case. It's like, why would you start feeling that after the like the marriage though, you know what I mean, Like especially on the honeymoon

so quick. It's just like it's just like such bad timing on his part, you know, like if you're gonna have those feelings of maybe curiosity or or whatever, just like have them earlier before you get married to someone, um to kind of save everyone in the heartache. But I agree with you, Like my first girlfriend and the girl that I lost my virginity to all these things, like I was insane about her, like like like what would have done anything? Like I cry, like I don't

cry ever anymore as an adult. Uh, not bragging about that. I don't think it's a good thing. I just want to say, Um, but this girl may be so freaking emotional. All the freaking time I was crying about it. I was like my gut was in knots all the time about it. Um. And I probably felt the same way that this guy felt about you before you got married. But like to Jared's point, like eventually that stuff disappeared. Uh, and I realized, you know, for whatever reason, that we

weren't meant to be together. Uh. I didn't marry the girl after I realized it before I realized that, fortunately for me. But I mean, I don't know. I don't Mark, what kind of advice do you have for Trina here? That's the saying. My only guest with this guy is that he's young. I'm wondering if he's young, But I don't know what to do at this point. Guessing that you're five years in and you're not having a great time and it's kind of the same as it's been

for the past four and a half years. You guys are gonna have to talk to somebody, and they're gonna have to go to couple's counseling and and not rule out maybe moving on from each other. If he's really not the man you dated, then that's not on you. You've clearly tried on this. If it's just not happening,

I'm not sure what else you can do. I question, guys, if a guy is or if somebody in a relationship is obsessed with the other one while you're dating, is that a red flag and shouldn't be treated as a red flag? I actually, yeah, I think it might be a little bit of a red flag because I feel like that just flames out so quickly. I mean, with the example of Trina right now, that it could cause some issues where you're like, this is a girl I'm

gonna marry. I'm all in, and then the day comes and you start having doubts, and then you, guys get married. I'm curious about if this guy was having doubts before the wedding and he just never vocalized it, and then he got married and realized I made a huge mistake, and that's why it seemed like he flipped switch, because his mood just immediately changed realizing, oh what am I getting myself into? Um I think it's I think the argument could be made for that, but because Actually was

obsessed with you, yeah it was. It was wildly unhealthy. She should I told her that a million times. I'm like, listen, you don't understand. I'm crazy. I'm a psycho, like I'm a dude, Like I'm not this guy you're building up in your head. And she's like, now you're perfect and

I'm obsessed with bla and it's like okay. And then luckily, after years of friendships, she started kind of like those feelings started subsiding, and we still had strong feelings for each other, so it kind of worked out in the end. But I still say to this day, if we got together when she was in that first phase, I don't know if it would have been a healthy relationship to

start off with, because those feelings would have subsided. And I feel that, like we you know, I just feel like it would have been a vastly different relationship and than what we have now. So do you think Actually is less obsessed with you now than she used to be? Hey, Ashley, No, she went to walk Lois never mind. I would say, I know, I would say she's less obsessed with me now than she was before. Not in a bad way. No,

I think that's healthy. I think that's healthy too. I mean that's kind of the same situation that tritons and he was obsessed with her and now he's not. It's funny because I kind of think of my situation the same. Like when Caleb and I first started dating, I got the feeling that she was obsessed with me. Uh and now she like, you know, she still likes me. He'll get me wrong, but she definitely that obsesses me. Like, I don't know, it's it definitely is something that that fades.

And I think that I don't know, maybe Trina maybe it happened so quickly or something like that that that's why she's thrown off by it. But I think that what you guys have both thought as the normal arc. I think, you know, they're obsessed with the idea of you, and then when they get to know the real you, if they're still in love with you, that's a very good thing, and that fades. Now it's faded for this guy. I don't know what's happening nowadays, but I'm I'm concerned

for the future of Trina's marriage. So, Mark, are you obsessed with your wife. I think. So, here's this tangential topic. But on that point, I work with somebody who says, and I think she may be right about this. When she first said, her to kind of scoffed, but she may be right that the best relationships the man is slightly more in love than the woman. Interesting. Ashley tells me that all the freaking time. She's like, you're supposed to be more obsessed with me than I am obsessed

with you. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's not the way this one worked with my wife and choose with me. I need an explanation. Why is that the Why is that true? I'm not sure why, but I think there is something to that. I think it creates more stability somehow, because if the the woman is more obsessed, I think it maybe makes the guy back

off a little bit, or maybe increases wandering eye. I'd also like to see the statistics in terms of I mean we're really generalizing here, but like a relationship between a man and a woman, the statistics of who ends the relationship more the man or the woman. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the time it's the man. Who initiates ending the relationship rather than

the women. And in that case, I do find it healthier if you're in a relationship where the man is more obsessed with the female because most likely he's probably the one who's gonna end the relationship. Does that make

sense right? Well? To Mark's point the wandering I I think men are more likely to have have a wandering eye, and so by being more obsessed with the other person than the wife, is uh, it kind of like brains that in a little bit, so I can see that being And to bounce off your point, I don't even just mean like the man broaches the conversation. I mean the man could do something to jeopardize the relationship. First, That's what I'm including in my argument, Like you said,

possibly cheating or doing something stupid. Well, anyways, let's let's let's help train out. So she wants to know if it's normal, She wants to know how the flip the switch could be flipped so dramatically, and she wants to know if it's just a man psychology that the chase is over and now it's boring, And I think I don't think those things. Yeah, exactly, I don't think I

think all those things are true. I just think that there has to be more to it than that as well, um, because it's like, yes, obviously everyone likes well not everyone, but the chase is the fun part, Like that's the exhilarating, exciting. That's why he was obsessed with you because it was like exciting and and uncertain and like he wasn't sure what was gonna happen. And then marriage came along and obviously you're like, okay, cool, now we're together for life.

And so I think the excitement uh not disappeared, but maybe it changed to something else. And so it's just a matter of like kind of tapping into what those feelings would be. I mean, I I don't know, five years is a long time. If if you started feeling um reserved about this on your honeymoon and then five years later you're still together obviously, like he's still with you two, so you guys both still love each other. I think you just need to have a conversation about it.

All right. I'm totally gonna name drop right here, but this person gave me a great piece of advice one time. Mr Rob Thomas told me one time he said, with the person that you're marrying. Don't ever forget that this is the person you're going to be having a conversation with every day for the rest of your life. So make sure, whoever you marry, it's someone you want to talk to every day for the rest of your life. And I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,

I found this on psych central dot com. Of all divorces are initiated by women. See that's an interesting stat though, because sure the divorce might be initiated by the women, but how many of those guys did something stupid to jeopardize That's very true. And also for non married relationships, it's even. It's there's no statistical difference. They're interesting. A lot of minution there, though, I'm sure a lot of Next email also challenging. It's from Alexandra. I've been dating

my boyfriend for over a year now. My biggest issue in our relationship is he can't commit to taking trips with me. He always looks into them with me, but when it comes time to book, he pushes it off. Flash too now, we were supposed to go on a weekend trip this month, and then when it came time to book, he wouldn't book because he said he had

all these unexpected expenses and he couldn't afford it. But that night he was booking a plane ticket and planning a golf trip for his cousin's bachelor party and told me we'll do something in May. I promise. Money seems to be no issue when it comes to things you want to do, or his family or with his friends, But when it comes to me and doing things together, he complains about spending too much money. I need a man's opinion, please, m M. I see no red flags here.

I'm not even joking like I mean in terms of yes, he needs to put more effort into the relationship, but in terms of like him trying to cover something up or him doing something nefarious, I think this is the most guy thing I've ever heard in my entire life. He's willing to spend money on bro trips because he wants to go and hang out with his friends, But he's not going to spend money on going on a weekend getaway with you because he spends all his time

with you. That's his rationale. He's like, well, babe, why would we pay hundreds of thousands or hundreds or thousands of dollars to go on this getaway weekend where we could just hang out in here, which is what we do constantly. But he feels like he's valid in spending money on his bachelor trip because he never sees his friends. I think that's what he's thinking, right. Um. It's funny because listening to Mark read that for the first half, I was like, Oh, he's probably like broke and he

just doesn't want to admit it or something. But then obviously it kind of unravels to him talking a lot about money, So that's not the case. I agree with Jared. I mean, uh, it's like, if you guys are spending

a lot of time together, what is the appeal. It's It's funny because Caitlin and I talked about this, not talk about it all the time, but um, it's been a point of conversation before where she's like, I want to like have a weekend get away up into Malibu, And I'm like, what is in Malibu that's not in Venice where we live every day of our lives together, Like, what what are we going to get up there that

we're not getting down here? And She's just like, I don't know, I just want to get away, and I'm like, but what, like, what what are we what are we getting out of it? Um? Long, sure enough, every time we have that conversation, we end up doing what she wants to do, So we go on these trips anyways. Um, But I mean I agree with Jared. It's just like, you know, you're spending a lot of times together as is, and he sees that kind of as like him doing what he not like needs to do. That kind of

makes it sound the good shore. But but he wants to like use his getaways and his trips like with his buddies, with his family, that type of thing. I don't never I don't necessarilygree with Jared. I do think it is a red flag, but um, it's a small flag or it's like a you know, it's not a very dark shade of red. It's not the biggest deal in the world. But I definitely see it causing some issues if it if it persists. Why why is it

a red flag because she's not a priority for him? Well, I mean yeah, I guess like it's it's always a red flag if someone wants to do something and the other person isn't willing to do it for him, especially something as harmless as this, where it's like, just spend a couple extra dollars, get a hotel, drive up the

coast an hour. You know, like you might not even like like the idea of it, but it's it's kind of similar to like me and Kalen, like I never really liked the idea of those little baby trips, but then we like leave on them and go on them, and I'm like, this is fine, Like this is fine. I can see why you wanted to do this, you know what I mean. So it's like it's not like the worst thing in the world at the end of

the day. In my opinion. That's flag, Jared. I mean sure, if you want to like a little putt putt flag, like a tiny this is more like I I agree, Like, listen, this guy needs to put more. This guy just needs to like not be a stupid guy and be like, oh wait a minute, I gotta maybe I should take her on a weekend trip and you know, make her happy.

It's kind of like, you know, if there's a playoff game on and it's your anniversary, like it sucks you gotta go to dinner and you know, you gotta go to dinner with here, Like it's just that's the way the world works, you know, So like this guy just needs to have that moment of lightbulb and be like all right, yeah, wait a minute, I gotta we gotta go somewhere. I gotta make her happy. But I certainly

don't think like something like sketchy is going on. I think, Alex, I think you should just like tell him like, this means a lot to me. It would mean a lot to me if we went somewhere together to bond. It does seem like he's taken her for granted a little bit, which you know, guys probably young early in a relationship. I get that, but so Jered is like it's like a red flag with a little one in a club sandwich. Yeah, the little one that you you put like in the

picture perfectly, Okay. I mean I think, like I agree with Mark. I think that he is taking you for granted. And I don't think that you should like resort by saying something like you like we do a trip like this, or we break up, Like, don't give that kind of ultimatum. But he probably knows that, like he doesn't have to take you on these trips and you're still going to be his girlfriend at the end of the day. You know,

not necessarily a bad thing. Not necessarily a good thing either, but uh, you know, I don't know, do you guys agree with that? Yeah? A little pickle flag. Yeah, yeah, the pickle flag. And also it's good to change it up every once in a while, especially you know, how do I put this tactfully? Um? You know, the the intimacy hotel intimacy is way better than home intimacy because because you can just you can clean it with anything, you can rub it on the sheets, on the curtains.

I mean, Mark, that's that was a bold statement, but you're absolutely right. Well I think we have different reasons, but eventually, just make sure you leave a tip at the end the day. All right, Well that's gonna do it. For this week's episode of Help I Suck at Dating? What a way to end it. Thank you A big thank you to our guest guy which make sure you go listen to his podcast, Dear Therapist wherever you listen to your podcast. Um, and then yeah, I think that's

gonna really do it. Dean. Thank you for being the wonderful human being that you are, UM Ashley, thanks for constantly interrupting our podcast. Uh and make sure you guys tune in next week. Were hopefully we all suck just a little less. Follow help by Suck at Dating on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcast