Jared and his “Things”

like to or maybe current wife of Dean Anglert. Truly, we still don't know if you guys are married or not. But we have a wonderful guest uh joining us very shortly from the host of the podcast Lovers and Friends. It is intimacy expert Shan Boudram, which is a lot of fun to say. She's gonna be joining us rate. Actually I think she just hopped on. Shan. You're there, I am here, are we're starting. We're just gonna go right into it. How are you. I'm doing great. There's

a box of clothes behind me. I've got to move because you know, you can't see what it looks like until it's too late. So here we are the worst first eate night. It makes you feel any better. I threw a bunch of ships in the kitchen so that way you guys couldn't see it in the back. So I was in the same boat. So well, at least you did the thing, Caroline. You threw it. Now mine is literally obviously, But Mike, it's a mess in the kitchen. You know what, Just to make you feel better, I'm

gonna show you what I did. Oh God, here we go. She's taking us on a tour through her kitchen. There it is, yeah, right there, because so just you know, to keep it real so you feel okay about your box back. You're good to. Caroline is the type of person that just sweeps everything under the rug. I like, yeah, you gotta hide. I trust me. I do the same thing. So Shan, thank you so much for joining us today.

I really appreciate it. We know that you are an intimacy expert and you spent many, many years is discussing everything from relationships to sex. Uh. You have millions and millions of views on YouTube. You've been on Netflix and Hulu ABC. I don't mean to give your whole bio just right now, but just tell us a little bit about what your passion is in life, why do you why you host the podcast Lovers and Friends? Uh, and a little bit of what you do. Oh. I think

you just hit the whole thing in the head. My passion. It's always interesting. People are like, who's trying to see if we align with your brand? And like, if it's about sex, love, relationships and dating, yes, If it's not, probably not. So I think I'm pretty simple in that way. I just have a passion for connection and a passion for intimacy and in general. It was just kind of the aha that I had after a really shitty teen

sex life of why isn't this information more accessible? And why is misinformation more accessible, more palatable and consumable than actual good information education? So I saw a need for someone to bridge the gap between sex selling and sex education. And that was back in like two thousand five or something. Um that I had that A Haan, I've been rocking with that same mission ever since. So what got you

into it? Because I I love that you're I love that you're making sex easier conversation to have because it needs to. We're actually talking about last time on the podcast about how there is this taboo with a lot of different aspects of relationships woman's bodies, sex relationships were just nobody knows what the hell they're talking about, and they just say things that don't make sense and don't ever actually come to fruition. So how did this start

with you? You You said you had a shy teen relationship. That's exactly it. Yeah, on my own best case study that essentially I was somebody who was you know, some kids are naturally drawn to the piano when they're young. I was just naturally drawn to the human body. I mean like four or five years old. You know, my barbies were naked all the time, and I just like, I loved the body and I was very fascinated by connection. Um, But unlike the piano, that was not an interest that

my parents encouraged. So I definitely went through a lot of shame and repression around my sexuality, which led me as I got older, to finding back doorways of teaching myself. So when I turned fourteen or so, um, I knew I couldn't go to my parents where I went to a Catholic school, I couldn't go there. So to answer the questions I had about what is intimacy and what is sex? I watched a lot of porn. I read

a lot of fiction books. I watched TV shows like Gossip Girl and n their fiction TV shows, and I thought, ah ha, this is how it works, this is what I should do. Um, And I essentially threw myself into my intimate life with that as my guide post. And it took me to several dead ends. And at that point, as at the fork in the road of Okay, either my parents and my priest and church was right, this is a terrible thing that you should just ignore or else it's going to lead to pain and suffering, or

I have had the wrong teachers. And so why don't I try myself? So I enrolled in a library and I spent an entire summer just reading every book I could about sex, from Masked as in Johnson's to the Kinsey Institute. And I was like, Wow, there's great information here that could have saved me so much heartbreak, so much unnecessary trips to the sexual health clinic. UM, if I would have had this. However, it's just not sexy.

You know, sex ed is not sexy. And that's again because kind of where I had that aha moment of because I actually was enrolled to go in school into school for journalism that coming September when I turned nineteen. So that was for me of like, this could be the thing that I talked about, This could be the stories that I share and that I tellum, And that's

I'm still rocking with that today. It's so incredibly self aware of you because you're eighteen years old at this point again nineteen eight Like I feel like I'm thirty one and just starting to kind of have these conversations with myself and I just went through a really atrocious breakup and with an abusive boyfriend, and um, it's it's so I'm now like re evaluating and looking at everything.

And so it's so cool to be that young and to be like, hey, like this it doesn't work, something's not right, and to take that initiative is so impressive to me because they're so you were so young when you started. Well, congratulations on your breakup. That's really people say that. Thank you so much. I want to high five about it, because yeah, you don't there's this weird shame associated with breakups and it's like I'm unwanted and I was like, no, this is great, and so thank you.

Not enough people say that because it is a let's congratulate high five about it, because well, I actually my episode of my podcast this week, which we're charting at number one O nine this week because it's been a really great one, and it's by Cammy Crawford, and it's called um Breakups Are Fun. And Cammy just went through a breakup. She's the host of Catfish right now alongside

the Girl Yes and the caracting girl Yeah. And she was just sententially talking about how her breakup UM she's hoping becomes a breakthrough, and I was just sharing the science behind how this can be one of the most incredible catalyst and people's lives now. A lot of people there's kind of just like thought process out there that you have to go through the bad to learn, and I built my career off the premise that you don't

have to do that. But the truth is, yeah, Unfortunately, the reason I got into this space is because of so many negative experiences and getting to that place of rock bottom of like I have one of two choices either I stop all together and quick because it's so terrible, or I find a brand new route that has felt inaccessible to me. So you know, whether it happens at

thirty one, or happens in nineteen, or happens in sixty five. Um, hopefully we get to that place where we realize that the information that we're given is not leading us to the life that we want, and then we decided something about it. But hopefully, hopefully the newer generation actually has educators and accessible leaders who can help them so they don't have to go through those really dark places to find their light. I was gonna ask your typical audiences

that it is it people in relationships or single people. Um, I have to do a poll for kind of to see what that is. My I know, my, you know, you know, you don't get those stats like on your

algorithm stuff. You know you get I know that it's people twenty five and app So it's usually people who are, um, you know, in that place where they're starting to think more mindfully because unfortunately, yeah, when you're in your teens in the younger years, maybe you want to know how to give the best blow jobs, like how condoms work. But like, are you worried about your attachment style at that time? Probably not, should you be, absolutely so five

to thirty five ish. So it's that person who's in that space of trying to find their person and find their groove. Um. And it's probably a mix of of single and connected people because you know, my podcast Ranges and Topics and we did Dating in your twenties last week and people loved that because a lot of people are single and going through that period of like this is nuts. But I would hope it's a mix of both. Well.

I feel like intimacy is so weird now, especially with the pandemic and like trying to you know, be intimate and even just even just meeting people. It's like so interesting that pandemic was you know, hard for so many reasons, but people in my industry blew it open. And I don't know if you guys can to test this because you obviously are contributors and educators in this space as well.

But it's almost as if when we stopped worrying about like our Starbucks stamp card and our commute to work and if we're getting a promotion or if our gym membership is serving us like everything else. When that got shut down and all we had was the people in our home, people had to really rethink and all of a sudden they started to prioritize or intimate relationships in the way that they didn't. So I feel like my

work and the need for my work went huge. The spike went huge, way up as a result of the pandemic. So it changed stuff a lot for datas and it made things. I think it made things more difficult or more easy, kind of depending on what your style is, because some people the way things weren't doze nineteen was not working for them. Now that things are slowed down and they're much more intentional um and there's a lot more of a focus on things to know people versus

getting to touch people. Some people really benefited from that shift, But I think overall, everybody rethought their intimate relationships in the way they hadn't before. I also think that's probably pretty evident from how many relationship podcasts that have like sparked in the past a little bit um So I think it's dalin all been pretty good for people. Reprioritizing relationships shook it up in a way that we clearly needed how did we get here? Why did sex become

such a taboo thing to talk about? I thought you were asking about the pandemic, and I was like, how did this get tell us? We know you have the answer. Yeah, this is where I started spending all my crazy conspiracy theory. So I'm sorry I got lost on Muhan. What was her? What were you actually going with this question? I wanted to know, how do you think that we got here

with sex being such a taboo conversation to have? Man, I mean, I would like to think altruistically, like when I think about the Bible, right, like why in the Bible is it promoted to wait for sex until marriage? And why is it promoted not to have multiple partners, not to touch yourself into masturbate. And I think that

health care access is a big part of that. So you know that many years ago there there probably wasn't a systematic healthcare practice that there was like one person in the city, and so people having multiple partners, and there was no birth control, so people having children out of wedlock where they couldn't support that child and getting several venereal diseases that obviously probably was an ideal for

like society's progress. So I think creating a belief system that hey, like if you have stained from sex and make smarter choices, and you know, as much as marriage is like a cure all for not getting a STD, but it does also also ensure you have two parents who are like hopefully equally prioritized in child rearing. So I understand it from that perspective that it actually was a solution to a world that didn't have birth control and didn't have healthcare and probably didn't have as much

information or knowledge around sex in general. And and then I just think people got getting weird with it. I don't know, it just became some yeah puritan and it twisted into something that was about control and shane and fear. I'd like to think that it started out of a place of altruism, and I also like to think about it's like encouraging connection. Also, It's like, you know, because

obviously sex feels good. So if we were all just kind of running around like with everybody, it's kind of again, you're lacking that intimacy if you're just kind of going out and thinking everything that walks. It's nice to have that kind of moment where you go oh hey, wait a minute, Let's not just you know, think with our downstairs. Let's you know, work on this intimacy and develop this connection. So maybe, I mean, I agree with what you're saying.

With at the time, it probably made the most sense, but obviously that doesn't really it doesn't work for us anymore. But again, rather than just sleeping with every everybody, just kind of focusing again on the intimacy and connecting with people. Yeah, one of the greatest things I think that I get to do is the study of science and sex and love is so fascinating. And you know, what we know now is the difference between like a sex drive and

a romantic drive. And there's a difference between obviously lust and love and passionate experiences and companion experiences. So it's very possible to separate sexuality from emotional intimacy. But they're

coupled together in a way to support evolutionary function. But if you're aware of that, you can like decouple them kind of like how our addiction to sugar or are draw to sugar is based on evolutionary merit, because you know, if you're out there in the wild and you eat something sweet, very few things are poisonous that are sweet, so your body is like more and more and more

and more and more. Obviously, now that doesn't really work when like snickers are on deck in two thousand twenty two, So we have to now decouple our like natural drive for sugar with like what our actual biological needs are. Not to be said, I think it's very That was a very heavy way of me saying, like, yeah, tens of thousands of people, as long as you're very well aware of how to de couple emotional connections from that, because you know, doing both can be very damaging unless

you're in a very mature, polyamous relationship. And then furthermore that you have the ability to ethically choose partners who are able to do the same so that people are not having sex at the cost of their mental health. So how do we change how do we make things better?

You know you're doing you know what my question is, because you even said that a lot of your demographic is twenty five and of but you know, as someone like even my own experiences as being a guy being friends with guys, a lot of what I learned about sex was also from porn, which I don't think is

the best thing. I'm not anti porn, but I am also anti learning how to have sex from porn because then there's certain expectations and both women and women feel like they should be, um, you know, reaching a certain level of satisfaction that's probably not realistic. Definitely not realistic. So I think, you know, and then there's also like the addiction part of porn, which is a different conversation.

But I guess my question is what do we do because I think that there has to be conversations had with the younger generation, but how do you how do you blend that together with being not overly um, I don't know how to describe it. Like I just couldn't imagine a lot of parents not wanting to have to have their kids go to school and have conversations like this. But also I think it might be needed, especially in teenage years where those hormones start, you know, coming full

full scale. Yeah, I mean, it definitely is necessary. It is a challenge. I started in this space at nineteen and thirty six now, so I think it needs to

be a younger person than me. You know, if you're going to it's about peer education, having somebody who's got like a relative knowledge or who's in the school system or has a kid around that age, Like you have to immerse yourself and the experiences of what it's like to be young growing up today and sexual and aware of how to talk their language, and also meet them where they're at right now. So I think it takes

that special expertise number one and number two. Yeah, when I did work more predominantly with teens and younger people, like my first book, Laid came out in two thousand nine, and that book was four people under twenty four. Like I was very clear that like, if you're over twenty four, I don't want to hear from you, and like I'm not interested in your perspective, and also like this is who this is for um. It was hard man, Like

there's so much more judgment. You have to be very cautious of the language you use, you have to be very cautious of the topics you talk about when you get parents involved, and then you know, ultimately I started, I don't know about yourself, but I started watching porn at like thirteen fourteen. But you're supposed to pretend that nobody's sexual until eighteen, So it's difficult to access that crowd because parents are still under the illusion that their

kids are here. So it's very difficult to get into the teen education space. And to those people who are doing it now and do a good job, like, kudos to you, because you gotta really, like you know, in those movies where you break into a bank and there's all these like lasers and you have to like jump in between them, like make it to the other side,

like to actually make an impact. I think in that space there's a lot that you have to arm yourself with, both education wise, but then also like censorship because you have to tread that line so carefully. It's funny that you bring this topic up because I literally was having

a kind of conversation with myself yesterday. Um so, Shan, I'm in the middle of doing fertility treatments and I'm freezing my eggs and that kind of congratulations again, look at you making all these great choices for your life, trying to um But so in going through it, you know, I think about being a parent a lot, and like the conversations, and something popped into my head and like, oh my god, one day I have to give a sex talk. And it was just like oh, like as

we never know. And then for a second it was like scary to be like, oh, that's a big deal. And then I thought about it, like how my mom me, you know, the sex talk, she and my dad waited until they were married and blah blah blah, and she was just a liar, Like she just lied to me and she was a big fat liar and in her path that I wish she had told me because it would have won and made me feel like I could have gone to her with more and to like I

would have. I think that there was just so much shame associated with it and like you were the same as me, like why and so yeah, like what the hell?

And so it's just so funny that those gets brought up now because I was thinking about, you know, the way I want to approach these conversations, and I think it's so important to be honest with your kids, because let's be real, like how old were you when you lost your virginity and you're trying to ask your kid to wait longer than you And it's like, I don't know, I've been watching three I don't know if you guys are watching and it's fantastic, highly recommend But it's just

it's cool to watch the way that they parent their daughter in that show, and they give her so much trust and responsibility because you know it is your your child, so you know, you obviously want to shield them and protect them. Um, but having these open conversations with them and treating them like an adult and like the adult that you thought you were at that age, I think

is helpful. I think it's just kind of creates this open space to have this dialogue and where your kids can come to you and have these conversations and just to be like, hey, I don't know, I don't have all the right answers, but this is what happened to me, and here's what I learned from that. And you know, hopefully you know you can make these decisions for yourself, and I can't be the one to make that choice

for you. I can't tell you what is the right age to lose your virginity, but I hope that you can make that choice and make it and don't. It's

not something that you take lightly. And so I just think parents need to be having more honest conversations and being real with our kids about Hey, um, I was fifteen, you know, yeah, I have the exact same exsweris of my mom where it was like, I'm supposed to tell the person, you know who waited until mayor our age and was in love and it was like the perfect person my mom. You know, I did a different you. She had one partner before my dad, but that was

like her long term high school sweetheart. Of course, to your point, later on I found out and there was a couple one night stands in there. Then we forgot to mention, but how am I supposed to tell this person who did everything so perfectly that like, hey, I'm having sex with carrots? Is that normal? Right? That didn't

feel like a very accessible conversation. So I love what you just said about being honest and also to acknowledging that not the sex talk, it's the conversation, right, Like I have a one year old daughter and if she, you know, is around her genital region, I'm like volvo volva. So you know, you're providing the language right away, and then it's built into just a part of your natural dynamic.

Doesn't have to become this thing that like we've never discussed and now you're twenties, So like, let's try to get this right in one shot. If you're just naturally always bringing it up as an age appropriate thing and it's you know, or get it to your relationship, I think that people would find that it's not this daunting, overwhelming thing and you don't have to think of out

when to bring things up. Things will naturally present. This parents said to me, which I always think about and loved, is that they watched Gray's Anatomy with their kids, which is that show. You know, it's been on probably since many people I think or something watching it. She said that they watched that religiously, and that has that's the sex education because every time something happens in the show she has a personal story or she asked questions as

inspired so many conversations between them. But again, it becomes this ongoing dynamic and a part of the way that the two of you communicate, so it doesn't feel weird or unnatural. And I love what you said because it's completely normal to be like, I don't have the answers to that, but you know, we talked about the softens. Next time I will, I'll look it up for you. We think that like to be a parent, you have to like have all the answers and you have to

shield them from everything. You have to know everything, like I don't know what, Like I looked at my mom again. This all stemmed from watching three, and I looked at my mom in this new light recently because again there's just this amazing dynamic with this show. Highly recommend ten out of ten you should watch. But like looking at my mom is this person who is not like all the way grown and knowing, has all the answers and

all the things, Like she's just a kid too. She just happens to be sixty two, Like she doesn't know what she's doing and she's just she's still like she's just me figuring it out. But like later on in life, like you know what I mean, she's not I don't know. It's just a cool dynamic to like see your parents in this new light and you're like, oh, you didn't know what you were doing. And also, my grandmother gave my mom the sex talk on the night before her

wedding and my Mom's like, no, I know. Like so they've been raised by a completely different generation and so I think it's important for us like moving forward you know, with our kids down the line, just to change that because you know, they got this weird sex talk the night before their wedding, which isn't isn't realistic, And so I guess that's the kind of cool thing with us and all this means of communication that we can be like,

I don't know, more comfortable talking about it. I don't know. Yeah, I think what's changing too massively is like I think for the older generation, there was this idea like don't bring up your imperfections, don't talk about the likea that you drink at your job, hide your tattoos, like you had to compartmentalize everything about yourself to the point if you were lgbt Q plus, like don't let anybody know.

And now we live in this place of like expression and bring your whole self to everything that you do, Like your job should know that you have a neck tattoo, and your um, your partner should know, like you know all parts of yourself. You don't have to create all these like siloed versions of you. And I know that when I first started as an educator, my parents were like, your way too raw, Like people want to see perfection, they want to see Oprah. They want to look at

you as aspiration, like you have everything together. So the fact that you're sharing your mistakes, that you're swearing, or you're not always polished, like if you're never are going to gain people's respect that way. And I was like, your people's respect. You know, I'll come from a different generation, right, which likes authenticity, and so it's about again bringing your full self to things with J as we know, is

also healthier for a true intimate relationship. I think there's a lot of ships that are happening Generation generation is happening with gen Z. Gen Z are so much more sexually fluid, They're so much more aware of their kinks. There's so much more comfortable talking about consent the millennials were, and so it continues to get better in that realm. And I'm really happy to hear that those are two things.

That's funny to bring it up, like about kinks and stuff, because I my last relationship, he was like what are your things? And I was like, am I supposed to have things like? And I just don't like And it's it's funny that like knowing to like, how do we explore that side of yourself? And then also like the

boundary with consent. There's so many times I was just like, oh, we're here, like and're just like okay, and it's just I love that they're having this conversation where they feel comfortable to you know, how their boundaries and their things like that. I guess I don't have things. I'm very boring. You don't think you have things, and you should spend some time you find out what your things are there. I'm kidding, I have things. Oh what are your things?

That's that's that's happened, you know, in the spirit of authenticity and openness, Jared, what are your things? I've talked so I'm married and uh so that's my king. That's definitely my uh so Ashley and I yeah, she um man, it's weird talking about this. I guess we I mean I talked about it helps no eye contact. Yeah, no kidding, uh you know, I definitely. But also, I god, this is this is when you need Dan on the podcast, because Dean will talk about anything. Here's what would talk about.

That's what I keep trying to think because I'm so I don't know why I'm so uncomfortable with sex. I think it's because I grew up in a very Christian household, and I'm like hearing you guys talk about it, and I'm like, I don't know why. I feel like I can't talk about that, and I think it is like the Christian aspect. But so I'm like, what would Dean say? What would Dean say? And he'd probably just say something like super ridiculous, like he always does, but I just

I can't think of what it would be. I think, well, like, all right, it's hard to talk about because it's it's so weird to be vulnerable in this status, like even saying like we talked about a lot of what I learned about sex was through porn, so like through through watching porn, Like I like to be a little bit more aggressive, and so that was something that you know,

my it's so weird to talk about. My wife was a virgin for a very large portion of her life, and so it was sex was was different from us, you know, and so it was honestly a little bit of a learning curve, Like it was always really good, but they were they were you know, we had to kind of learn each other's bodies a little bit. And and so I, yeah, one of my kins is definitely like, yeah, you know, maybe you know I've been I don't know,

I don't you know. So I feel like one of mine that I've discovered is I like someone to be a little bit possessive in the bedroom. But like if you take that outside of the bed room and you try and tell me what to do, I'm gonna punch you in the fix. Not actually metaphorically, Oh totally, isn't it so like I can have we can have this conversation.

Is It's so funny how like sometimes you do things behind closed doors and then you know consensual and then you leave and you're like, I cannot believe we just said or did that, Like that's crazy. It's so funny the way that this like kind of um like drunk thing comes over you and you're just like, I'm just saying things and I don't know why I'm saying them, but they're happening. That's the thing to make the point of great sex, right, because in everything else in life

we have to be so buttoned up and so aware. Um. I read this book is called The Mastery of Love and just talks about humans being domesticated, like from the time that we're to write like, if you want to go in public and spinning a circle, don't. If you want to yell because you're on an airplane, you're frustrated, don't.

Like everything that we do is so conditioned, and so we get this one place in theory where we're supposed to be able just to be authentic and live in the moment and be expressive and make faces we don't get to make. Usually it make sounds we don't get to make, and bring up desires and you know, things that we've been repressing for so long. And hopefully if you are a well adjusted person and go to therapy, your desires are not you know, offensive or harmful to

other people. But there's in it's beautiful form. Yeah, it is like the ultimate release and the ultimate expression of self and of freedom when you can get to that place some sex, and I think that that's what we're all trying to get to. So I actually have a personal question for you. So I was in an abusive relationship. Um he never visibly, but there was sexual abuse and

there was um just a lot of emotional abuse. And I am physically incapable of being like the idea of being with anybody else's like really really hard, and like, how do you get past that? How do you? Like, I haven't even I can't go on a date, I haven't been kissed in since, Like how do you move past that? Like? How do you get past that point? Where like it's it feels so terrifying to be vulnerable and intimate with somebody and to let somebody else in, Like,

how do you how do you get past that? Well, first and foremost, I'm so sorry you went through that, And that is so beautiful of you to share. So many people can relate to that, and you know are afraid to say exactly what you just said. So I'm sure it took a lot of time and healing to even get to a place where you can name it and claim it for what it is without blaming yourself. Um, So I think that that's really beautiful and inspiring. So

I appreciate you sharing that. And I think if the idea of being with somebody else is too scary, Like what's not too scary is going on a chat room to VR chat room as an alias and just talking to people and talking something. Is that scary? Then do that is going to your friend out with your friends is a wing person where it's not for you, but you had a single friend that you're like, I'm going to try to like talk to different groups, like get you socialized even when you like anybody. So I'm your

wing persons not for me. If that's not scary, do that, Like find meet yourself where you are. You don't have to try to push yourself past the place of comfort because you won't even show up. It's the best version of yourself. You put yourself in fight or flight, so you're not doing yourself any favors by being like just do it, um. Instead think about, like what is the next step for you that does seem accessible, whatever it is that allows you get into the flow and gain

the confidence. And I don't know what your specific pain point is or where your boundary is a fear um, but I think if you can locate that for yourself of like what I'm afraid of is falling in love again, I'm afraid of me another terial person, I'm afraid everybody's negative. Kind of figure out what that fear is, and then I did defy, what is the most accessible logical way for you not to step into that new you know, you, but to tiptoe. I think that that's where you meet yourself.

It literally makes me shake, like I'm like sitting here like and it's like it is what it is, and it sucks that it happened. And I definitely think it has made me stronger, but it's it's it's hard to be like wanting to move forward and take that step to like like I want to just be healed and done with it and whatever, and it's And I had therapy yesterday and she reminded me that I'm still very much actively in my trauma um and so that kind of helps because I was like, why don't I want

to date? Like what's my problem? Like why like and like why can't I get there? And She's just like, you don't need to be there right now. But I love the idea of like kind of like walking like visualizing like what it will be like when I get back into it. So I was like, what do I do? So that's a good idea. Just kind of be a wingman for somebody and just kind of take the pressure off myself. I sure even doing this podcast is probably

a step in their great right direction. If you're meeting new people, this is the first date, right, Like, I don't know you guys, you don't know me, We don't have any ideas. It's a little uncomfortable. We're coming together and trying to pretend that we're all best friends for forty minutes. So there's a challenge with that, but that's

what dating is. So you're kind of putting yourself back into that groove and then also being like, wow, there's a lot of really interesting, cool people who I feel like I can share parts of myself that I couldn't share with the part person I was with for years because I was afraid of them and I was afraid of who had they would respond to the authentic meet.

So I think you're already doing that, you know, right step and if you kind of reframe your mind to like everything is intimacy, right, Like majority of things are about close personal relationships. Just building that confidence up again. Um, but yeah, you're obviously already well on your way because you have a therapist and you have all these incredible like ah ha moments you're able to share so vocally and you're literally a public figure who talks about data,

you can share it vocally. But then actually putting me actually it's like you get there right. I'm sure Sharon talking about it vocally a couple of years ago felt crazy to YouTube. True true too too. Well. Shan, thank you so much for joining us today. That was awesome. And Caroline, thank you so much for sharing that story. Um, probably pretty difficult. So uh, Shan bood Ram, make sure you check out our podcast Lovers and Friends. You can listen to wherever you listen to your podcast number one

o nine right now and rising. Hey you said from your lips to the charts baby, yes, yeah, well Shan, you were awesome. Thank you so much for your for a lot of knowledge that you you've bread on this podcast and on your own. So everybody go listen to Lovers and Friends with Shan bood Ram. Uh, and thanks again, please come back soon. I'm look at your books. I'm excited. Oh I appreciate that the game of csarre is also

my heart. Um, this was a joy talk to you guys. Bye, thank you all right, I'll do it for this week's podcast once again, go listen to Sham bood Rams. I just like saying her name podcast Lovers and Friends. You can listen to that wherever you're probably listening to this podcast right now. Caroline, thank you so much for coming

onto the podcast once again. You are such a joy. Kalen, thank you so much for joining us and uh filling in in Dean shoes, but it's always wonderful having you on this podcast and seeing your face, so thank you so much, UH and everybody listening, thank you for listening, because without you guys, there would be no podcast. UH and please tune in next week where hopefully we uh I'll suck a little less. Follow hell by suck at Dating on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcast