Hello there and welcome to Successfully Depressed, and I'm your host, Kerry Finsand. This show is all about helping solopreneurs navigate mental and physical health in life and business. Today's guest is Britney Smith, an A D H D, productivity and technology coach based in Portland, Oregon. She holds a master's of science degree in cognitive neuroscience, but don't let that intimidate you.
Britney is passionate about using cognitive science to help people be more productive in their day-to-day lives with or without technology. She creates engaging videos and courses that incorporate the latest gadgets and pop culture references to make the process more enjoyable. Her ultimate goal is to help her clients audience and ADHD Guild members get more done with less stress. Now let's get to the interview. Welcome to the show Britney Smith. Hey, how's it going? Pretty good.
Well, I found out about you through online looking up a D h D coaches from various websites and found out we had some connections on LinkedIn as well. And you're based here in Portland, so I was like, this is the perfect person to talk to. What I wanna start with is, look at all that fun stuff behind you, You have the Mandalorian helmet, I believe. Mm-hmm. that's, I love that show by the way. Mm-hmm. I know you're a big Star Wars fan and.
Tell me a little bit about like your background, cuz I remember reading your bio and you said that you worked for, for Disney for a bit in TV production
Um, yeah, that was long time before they bought Star Wars. Uh, yeah, I worked, I mean, at first 14 attractions. I love wearing costumes, so I was like, I'm gonna get a job where I can wear a costume. And they worked in entertainment and then the last place I worked was TV production. And, and what that means is mostly shooting commercials for Disneyland at Disneyland.
So you. You were one of the, they call it the cast members, right? When you wear the outfits, is that
correct? Technically, all Disneyland employees are cast members. Oh, okay. That's what they call 'em. Yeah. Yeah. And all of the outfits are not uniforms, they're costumes. So the answer is yes, uh, but, but maybe in a less exciting way than you'd envisioned
What were some of the costumes that you.
um, I, I worked in fantasy land and then in entertainment they were more of the kind you were probably thinking of, um, you know, fit fitting in with an area or a show theme or, you know, stuff like that. I'm just gonna leave it there. Strongly hinted. Um Sure, sure. And, and then, you know, TV production, you just wear something that's vaguely business casual, emphasis on the casual for TV production, which is how you can tell 'em apart from the rest of the managers and stuff.
more, more tennis shoes when you're doing TV production, cuz you might be in them for 18 hours.
it's a long day. Um, yeah. Yeah. So you went from TV production to being a A D H ADHD coach. So tell me this progression, how did this happen? What's your background?
So I decided I was gonna go to. Vaguely be a kid expert. was what I decided. So I was going, um, to back to school, getting a double major in, uh, child development and psychology and um, finally hitting. One of the interesting things when you combine a ADHD and some level of giftedness is you sometimes see these compensating strategies.
So I'd finally hit the point where I couldn't just raw intelligence my way out of all the work I was slow at doing, and that's when I got diagnosed as a, with adhd, it's telling you the longer story in the pre-show, but, um, realizing I, I couldn't, I couldn't do this at this level and that there was a disconnect there. And then as I was going through, I started really loving my cognitive classes and anytime I had a chance to do a research paper, they let me read about adhd.
I would choose that cuz oh, it's a cheat. I get to learn how my brain works and then maybe I can do this thing a little bit easier. And then when I went to graduate school, which was more of a cognitive neuroscience bent, like I did even more of that and I really, really focused in on, you know, attention, working memory, uh, the cognitive aspects of it.
Whereas you, there's a lot of brain things we don't think about that much, that are not, not so much I'm doing a thing and worrying about the resources involved with that.
What I like about, about your story and one of the reasons that I definitely wanna interview is that you have, uh, academic back. and you have ADHD and you've practiced, uh, coaching with people.
So you have a, you have a, you know, different tiers of knowledge versus, you know, someone like with me was diagnosed with it late in life just a couple years ago and understand like, oh, that me doing all these things aren't, like hyper being hyper-focused for hours and not paying attention to anything else and not like getting up to take a drink of water or just, this is the number one thing I'm locked in on. That's not a normal thing.
I thought that, you know, sometimes it's a superpower, we were talking about in the, the pre-call, you know, talking about in college, like procrastinating where it's, okay, well for some reason it's easier for us at the 11th hour to, oh, let's get this thing done. Let's just knock this thing out. Versus if we have 30 hours or let's say days beforehand, it's much harder for us to get that done
Yeah. Yeah. And when I got sort of burned out on academia and I really liked the practical applications of the cognitive science, you know, I wasn't so interested in so exactly which neuron is doing, how much contributing to looking at this exact horizontal or this exact diagonal line angle. That was not so much my jam and more that practical applications. That was when I moved towards ADHD coaching cuz I gave me a chance to apply a lot of the things that I'd learned.
Yeah, some people just really like to know every detail and I like your approach more about what's, what can I take away from this? for me as like just someone learning more about it in the last few years. I don't want something that's coming at me in all this journal talks like, you know, there's all this this great, um, peer review journal article on such and such. And I look at it and I'm like, no, I, this is not no thanks. I don't understand what they're even talking about in this.
That's why I've, looked at YouTube a lot and there's uh, what is the, how adhd, there's a bunch of great mm-hmm. videos on there that just from people that have ADHD and the things that they learn how to understand it better and then explain it. And those are very helpful. So I know from from you and your experience, you've developed this kind of fun environment cuz you like costumes and pop culture, and on your website it's all about Star Wars. I love the nerdiness of that. That's great.
It makes sense. There's actually a website called Nerd Fitness. I don't know if you've ever heard it before.
No, but I'm
stoked. It is so cool. Check it out. They have all this great information. you can pay to be a part of their program, but they also have just great resources on exercise and they use all pop culture stuff and Star Wars and it's super well done. So when I saw your website that kind of connected me to that a little bit of like, okay, let's kind of combine something more fun and approachable versus just the sterile type of information.
Yeah. That it's just not that effective. And one of the things about people with ADHD is we tend to be very passionate about the things that we are passionate about. Really struggle with the stuff we're not. But I think that's one of the reasons that you do see a lot of people with ADHD in entrepreneurship because oh, I'm the one that's the most excited about this one thing.
Yeah, I know For me In college, I got this, bug where I wanted to do everything like, oh, this is cool. Look at butterfly over there. And so I was in, I dunno if you ever saw that movie, Rushmore, where he is a college student and he's in like every club. That was basically me. In all these different clubs and like starting entrepreneurial clubs and starting my own business in college and just very curious person, curious to the world and everything.
So always learning about something new was fun to me. But then sometimes staying in that, okay, this isn't fun anymore, what's the next cool thing to check out? You're an entrepreneur too. You have your own business and you're coaching people. So how do you keep it exciting for yourself?
uh, the Star Wars website came out of. there's just this, oh crap, I gotta redo my website. I hate it so much. And, you know, we were getting, getting ready for Force Awakens. And so my friend and I just decided we were going to, you know what, let's just make it Star Wars. And he was gonna help me do it because it's always easier to do things with a friend. Coworkings great. And so he's gonna help me redo it.
And I was like, okay, great, we'll, we'll set it all up and then I'll take the Star Wars out, but like, we'll do this just to make it palatable. And then when I was done, I was like, you know what, this looks fine. It helps me pick my business colors and not, you know, die in decision fatigue forever. And anyone who doesn't wanna hire me with a Star Wars website probably won't be any fun to work with anyway. And, and it turns out people don't just come who like Star Wars.
They come when they're like, I appreciate your liking of Star Wars.
Yeah. it makes a, a fun niche cuz you know, some people might not be into that, but I think a lot of people will be into that cuz it's something different. It's something fun and it, it catches their attention. Cuz if you say, yeah, I'm an ADHD coach, that's great and all, but what's kind of your, tagline, what's your, what's your kind of concept that kind of makes it differentiate from the other people? How long have you been doing the coaching for?
See, I just need to start putting on my website the year I started, because even before Covid, and it's doubly after covid, I have no idea how long I have been doing anything. I think I'm getting close to the 10 year mark, which is why I should actually write it down. I might be there. Uh, I should, I should go look.
Yeah, sometimes you just, you do stuff and you've been doing it for so long and you're just like, oh, when did I start that? Because you don't initially started somewhere around there. Yeah. When you start, you're like, is this something I'm gonna do long term or who knows?
And you'd think I'd know, cuz I started not that long after I got my master's degree and I can't tell you when I got my master's degree either. So
I can pull up LinkedIn. That's all I would know again, from LinkedIn on your LinkedIn profile. Oh, that's a good
idea. Yes. I bet that the year is there. Absolutely. Yeah. Smart. We'll probably have a 10 year anniversary coming up very soon if I didn't already miss it. Yeah.
Well, that's your fun homework assignment, I guess after I interview today. Okay. Nice. Now we kind of got into a general conversation about adhd. ADHD and we both have it and entrepreneurs deal with it I mean, a lot of people deal with it nowadays, mm-hmm. can you maybe get into, like, let's start with 1 0 1 a, a adhd, what it is, and some of the terminology that goes along with it.
Yeah. So I mean, the acronym is attention deficit hyperactivity Disorder. Call it that weather or not. You personally have hyperactivity. They sort of combined the, a d D and ADHD into one, and then they sub have subtypes.
but I mean, really the things are not always like that kid you knew in elementary school who sit, couldn't sit still, which was definitely the stereotype I had in my head when someone first said I should get diagnosed and, you know, part of my life's mission is now fighting that stereotype because I, I know how easy it is to have it. But yeah, there, there is the thing where you struggle to focus on stuff, but it's, it.
Because there are so many things that are so situationally dependent, that's what throws us. Right. You know, I'm asking my friend if she thinks maybe her husband has adhd. She's like, oh no, because sometimes he can focus for hours on a thing. It's like, yes. So, um, it's actually more about not, not always controlling the focus rather than that it's absent. And although ADHD is an imperfect term, it is now a beautiful thing to Google.
So there are people who wanna change it, and I, I fight against that cause they're like, well one, you don't understand that much because the human race doesn't understand that how much about how our brains really are functioning to give it a better name. And two, there is so much Google knowledge that we can search for with this great term. Um, so I don't think they can come up with anything better. So just keep it right. If you can't improve upon it, keep the status quo. so, right.
It's not just that thing where you can't pay attention. It's not just the thing where you can't sit still. a lot of times hyperactivity in certain people, often women, but not always, or girls will present as lots of talking or just fidgeting, but, but are perfectly capable of staying in their seats. I mean, I thought my initial diagnosis was for, inattentive type, which is not hyperactive. Um, I watched these old home movies that that little girl cannot sit still. She is bouncing all around.
Well, she's answering all the questions and I'm like, a, as a professional now I'm like, oh, yeah. There, there's no, there's no way. I did not have hyperactivity. It's just I didn't get out of my seat in school. Right.
Um, well, there was a, the awareness back then was like, oh, this kid's hy Hyper given, give him or her Ritalin and that was the thing, and you're like, oh, wow, these. The, those kids just, they, you bounce off the walls. That's what I, you know, all my life. Like, that's what I thought. And it's completely different than that. And then the fact that mm-hmm. you know, you said too that it's like, oh, you actually are good at focus.
Uh, you have good attention on things that interest you, just not the other things. Unfortunately,
both a d, ADHD, and autism spectrum have a lot of very motivation based, differences. Uh, which is one of the reasons. So most people get them mixed up. Um, But that, that is one of the things that we didn't always know about as much was the motivation piece. When something is really boring, it's, it's not a lack of willpower that makes me struggle with it more than my neighbor at the desk next to me.
It's that hitting that threshold to really tackle it is much higher for me than it is for the person that's sitting next to me. And if I'm already tapped out from some other thing, I'm not gonna hit that threshold, or it's gonna take forever, and I'm gonna keep falling out of it because it, it can't sustain my interest. And sometimes, uh, for folks who are on the more gifted spectrum, it means that they were bored in classrooms and they did even poorer and got held back.
which is always sad, but it is a thing that totally happens. You know, I challenged a family one time like, well, we're thinking about keeping him back in this thing. I was like, do you think he already knows the material? I was like, I wouldn't, I would, this is a kid who needs a challenge, you know, in that particular instance, um, sometimes, excuse me, sometimes the workload can get higher, but Yeah.
Yeah. Not interest. I mean, off Oh, no, no, no. Totally. I mean, I just,
different symptoms. One of the ones that has been, uh, gaining in understanding that was definitely not a part of the lexicon in the eighties. Is a rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is that thing where our feelings are hurt way easier than it feels like they should.
Like, you know, somebody gives me feedback on a thing and I'm glad because like, I won't make that mistake again, but I'm gonna need 10 minutes or longer before I'm gonna be glad because at first it just, like, it hits me at a 10 when maybe it should have hit me at a two.
And, and that can come up in the procrastination issues that a lot of people see because we don't wanna face that thing that's old because in our heads it's yelling at us and telling us how terrible we are for not already doing it. And, and that much harsher, louder, more frequent inner critic is one of those things that we're only just now starting to really understand how much that has been playing a role in some of the motivation issues with adhd.
Yeah, definitely that's something that I just learned that probably in the last year. Um, the thing about it that's interesting is just this overwhelming of sensitivity to things. Mm-hmm. and just you feel things more like, I'll watch something and like I feel it more, whether it's like funny or sad or scary, whatever. And like, or you know, maybe I'm watching a show and this person's doing something b really dumb. Like this really annoys me.
This is a TV show, but why is that character doing that? They shouldn't be doing that. That doesn't make sense. And it's interesting just like, oh, that's just like how I work. But there is a term now, which is not always good to have labels, but also it helps you with understanding that other people are. Having similar
problems. There's obviously a bad kind of label, but, but language helps us understand things. That's how human beings work. And when we don't have language for a thing, it is very hard to understand it and explore it further. And that's, that's just brains, I mean, labeling and stereotypes of other people, that's obviously bad. Um, but, but label as in, I have a noun or a descriptor I can use now suddenly that, that allows a placeholder.
So we're not keeping, keeping all of the information actively in our head and it allows for further more advanced, cognition about whatever the thing is.
Well, like you were mentioning earlier with in the eighties, especially with with kids and stuff growing up, Ritalin was, a big thing. And like we're talking about hyperactivity, but so I was biased to thinking that's what. You know, attention issue. Mm-hmm. that's, that's all it is. You know? That's all it is. And then, yeah, and then you're older, you're like, what? It's all these other things that makes so much more sense now. I had no idea it was this thing.
And so that's why when you watch videos of, of different people that have ADHD and they talk about it on YouTube or whatever, TikTok, it's like, oh, that's actually kind of cool because I do that too. I'm not just some random person that has these behaviors where I don't feel motivated to do X, Y, and Z.
Yeah. Yeah. The, there's a reason and that feels, it feels better to understand that, but it also robs some of the power away from that really harsh inner critic, which is going to get in the way when we're trying to do things like market our own business, remember our own strengths so that we can sell it to other people.
Then there's some other terms that are newer to me as well. like, uh, time blindness, for example. Uhhuh, could you kind of go into that?
Yeah. So, um, contrary to how it feels, uh, if you do have adhd, the rest of the world thinks time is linear. And that's so weird to me, um, because that's not how I experience it.
You know, if you don't have adhd, it's, it's like that thing at the beginning of Covid where it felt like it had been two months, but it had been like a week, but like all the time and And so having those things where we'll get sucked into a thing and have no awareness of the time passing, and unless we're very good at externalizing and tracking, Innately, we don't have a very good guess of how long things will take.
And that's partly because many ADDers tend towards big picture thinkers, which means we're not thinking of the little steps. You know, if I'm thinking it's going to take me 30 minutes to get ready and get to an appointment that I drive in my car, you know, those days, I'm not thinking about the step of grabbing my bag, are my keys where I thought they were? Did I get food? Sometimes that's not one of the steps that we've considered. Um, and, and then it's a 20 minute drive. Great.
But did I count for the, how long it's gonna take to park or walk from my car to the building? And those little steps get left out in terms of our time estimation. And so that's one of the places it comes from. Um, but, but then also like when you've got interesting stuff happening inside your head, it's very easy for the world around you to pass without being aware that that is what has been happening.
When I was diagnosed maybe a few weeks after or something, I realized something. I was working on a project for work and it was a pretty big project, but I actually really enjoyed doing it. And I was just working for several hours and the heater in my room, in my office was broken. So it was just coming out super hot right in my face instead of like blowing around.
And it was this, and the room was, the door is closed and was super hot, and then one of my coworkers ca opened the door and like, it's really hot in here and your face looks red. And I'm like, oh yeah. Just because I was so dialed into what I was doing, I was like, Hey, whatever that this is, like, I'm, I'm kicking butt on this thing right now. I want, I wanna knock this thing outta the park. And then I was like, wow, that. Yeah, that's not normal.
Yeah. And that, that thing where you're like, how is it three o'clock already? I don't understand. Like it was just barely 1130. Um,
Yeah. I like to use those. You think, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, go for it. I was gonna say, one thing I like to do is using a time Tracker app, whether it is on my computer or my phone, and set it to like smaller chunks of time, of like 20 or 30 minutes. And then I see this clock ticking down and it's a good pressure for me cuz it's like, oh, okay, I need to be really efficient.
And then the 30 minutes I can, if I focus on this, not a problem, versus, okay, I'm focused on this thing, oh, I got this email coming. Oh, well that's interesting too. Maybe I'll switch over that. Mm-hmm. So it's just like, no, you're just focused on this for 30 minutes. Are there other, tips that you recommend for people to kind of keep track of their time better?
Yeah, I mean that's, so that's one of them. I mean, doing something akin to a Pomodoro or like, I am dedicated to doing this task for this period of time. For some people I'll recommend like always having paper or you know, an iPad and pencil or something right by where you are doing that thing so that it has a place for all of the ideas that occur to you that are not, that thing can go.
Um, like, you know, if sometimes doing a really hard task is exactly when we realize I'm thirsty, I didn't eat lunch, I need to use the bathroom, right? All of those things that I was unaware of until I tried to do a difficult task. Um, and if I have a, if I have a set for very unpleasant tasks, I'll usually do a shockingly short one, like 15 minutes. Um, very few of those things, unless you are diabetic or have other biological issues, none.
Very few of those things need to happen in 15 minutes. And so I'll say like, Nope, I'm doing this for 15 minutes, but if those things occur to me, I'll write them down. Or if it's like, oh, right, and I need to look up this other, I write it down, it all just goes on the paper. So that, or iPad or whatever, um, so that I can. make sure that I have this time as my protected time window for whatever is the thing I was going to do with the time.
Yeah. I, I think one thing that's helpful, I know for me too, and, um, you know, I love the book, uh, Tomic Habits by James Clear. Mm-hmm. and then BJ Fogg's, uh, tiny Habits and, you know, habits stacking, so is like when people are brushing your teeth, you already do that then, you know, floss, like add a little thing. But one of the things they were talking about is, every time get up, it's good for your body. Get up every 20 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever. So Right.
Every time I get up, you know, do a stretch or do a pushup or something that gets you in that cycle to do something else. Uh, so you're not just stuck on, you know, oh, I'm, I'm laser focused on this project and everything. So, uh, I really like. Some of those more approachable, kind of the, the micro habits versus just like, oh, here you have to do this major. You wanna, I wanna get great shape in, in 30 days.
So it's, it's just not really an approachable thing versus like, let's find little things like, oh, how about if we walk a little bit more every day?
Yeah. And, and those are great things for keeping out of the rabbit holes too, like Yeah. I've got, um, I'm gonna get up and stretch in a couple minutes, is one of the ways we can make sure we didn't, you know, go down the wrong path for two hours and realize that's two hours of not billable time or something because we, we were working on the wrong problem.
Um, another thing that's great about, you mentioned the habit stacking, uh, because one of the things we struggle with sometimes is activation energy. So having, there are people who cannot form, uh, habits either for trauma reasons or whatever. I'm not. This that is, that is a rare exception that does exist, and I just wanna acknowledge it.
But for those of us who can form habits, it's not easy to form habits like that with adhd, but it is possible and beneficial because you're not using, I don't have to use up activation energy every time to get in the shower. If I do it as soon as I work out every single time, and now I don't have to use up that same energy if I'm always, you know, flossing with brushing. I don't have to use that up because after a period they have been paired and linked in my head.
So that one just happens after the other. I mean, still need to use a checklist or whatever, but, but I don't have the same activation energy when they are part of the same combined habit.
Yeah. Yesterday for like a cue. You know, I have all my exercise clothes out, so when I wake up I see them. There they are. So it makes easier versus like, oh, where are my shoes? Where is, where is this, where is that? Um, one thing you mentioned is the, what was it? The attention, the en tension energy. What, what was it that you said? Activation energy. Activation energy. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about
that? Yeah. And it varies for people with ADHD and like how difficult a task, like how burned out already we are. But it's sort of that energy to like, okay, I'm gonna start a thing. You know, I, I know people, some have ADHD and some don't, who are like, I'm gonna empty the dishwasher now. And I, they just go and empty the dishwasher. And then there's other people that are like, I'm gonna gird up my loins to empty the dishwasher. And, and that's requiring more activation energy, right.
Um, If it's a thing that can happen organically, you don't have to use the same amount. If you don't have to gd your loans, you don't have to use it up. But there's also nothing wrong with needing to, like, this is not a moral failing. Um, it, it just means that that resource is getting used up. And that's, that's all it is. It's a, it's an exchange. So for me of having a podcast on is a great thing to have before I start doing a task.
Um, so, you know, if it's my turn to do the dishes and we're not watching a show already, I may be like, okay, spouse, you keep doing your thing. I'm putting on a podcast because if I don't have something else, it's just too boring for me to, to get through it. And so that's one of the ways I sort of gerd up my loins to, to make that activation energy to start something a little bit easier.
Okay. With activation energy, I know that for me, if I lay in bed in the morning and kind of think about what I wanna do, it takes up a lot of energy. And then I might not want to do what I want to do or might, might not be as motivated. So, mm-hmm. that's, is that activation energy then basically, um, or
I, I, sometimes it can end up being like, We almost put too much pressure on ourselves and, and it sort of goes away for that.
I mean, I wanna be clear, like activation energy is not a thing we have measured in a laboratory that I can point to, but it is a thing that resonates as feeling very true for lots of 80 years And, and I can feel it in my body, but I, it's not like I've read a study that's like, let's talk about activation energy, partly because you can't do single cell recordings in humans. like, how would you
do this? Not yet.
safely. You can do it just not safely. Okay.
I don't wanna be involved in that. I'm good on that, but, uh,
I'm, I'm good too.
So another thing that kind of maybe ties in that maybe not is, you know, dec decision fatigue, where you only have mm-hmm. you only, your decision bank only has so much money in it for the day. And I feel like for me, if I overthink. Too many things I want to do, or the same thing I really wanna focus on then it's, it's harder to make decisions later on. Like by the end of the day, I, so does that kind of, is that a different thing or does that tie in, or,
it's related, right? I mean, yeah. The decision fatigue is sort of like a bank and, and you can do an overdraft, right? But there's gonna be a cost later associated with that. Um, it does seem to pull. Pull from like a similar pool of resources as willpower. When your decision fatigue goes down, you'll notice willpower does too. I walk ho, you know, I walk in the door and somebody left cookies out on the counter and I'm hungry.
Even though I don't like those cookies, maybe like a whole lot of them go down my mouth before I stop to think about it. And, and it wasn't that I did a lot of other things, but like that my decision fatigue, my ability to like make these decisions in a way that I would like to has disappeared by the time I get home sometimes. Right. Um, so, so in my case it was, Hey, how about if we don't leave cookies on the counter anymore, please. Thanks. Oh,
that's, they're, those are gone. If that's for me. I already, I already had some cookies after lunch today and then went back for more. I have, I have a cookie problem, but that's just
Um, I mean, so the decision fatigue is real. And, and one of those things is, um, with the adhd we have spectacular imaginations, which is awesome in the right condition and leads to more decision fatigue cuz we can come up with more possibilities and more permutations. And the higher our intelligence goes, our higher ability to come up with stuff and the faster we can hit decision fatigue. which is just all kinds of fun.
Uh, so, so our capacity to hit decision, decision fatigue goes up and, and not down. And so it's something to be aware of that it could be even harder in those cases for activating on small things. Um, some things that are useful are like writing a now list. This is, this is what I'm going to do right now, which is different from thinking it through because it is decided, right? It is, it is captured somewhere that I don't have to keep rethinking it because it's outside of my head now.
Um, I can reorder it if I need to. At least I can on the app I use. Um, but, but I don't necessarily have to. Like, if you just write it down, it's like, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get up and days that I feel really low, this is something that I'll do is. okay, what am I gonna do when I get up? I am going to put on my exercise shoes. I'm going to, you know, down to that level, like I'm going to use the restroom. It will include that level of things.
And the, the thing that people don't often understand about adhd, especially when they're looking at it from, I don't know a better word than judge your perspective, but a judge, your perspective is we struggle with the small things, not the big ones. I can manage a gigantic project that's like singular in purpose. Please don't ask me to make five phone calls. And just that it's the things that are harder, that they seem harder and bigger that are fine.
It's, you know, what order do I get dressed to get on the exercise machine that can throw us the.
That makes a lot of sense. And that's, I'm always curious about, you know, the decision fatigue and then the willpower, cuz that's limited too. And, and so that's why we're, if you build something as a habit, then you're using less willpower in theory. Mm-hmm. So that's a lot of those, those, uh, like topic habits and tiny habits, those books, uh, I think are very valuable with that kind of information. Kind of breaking it down into steps.
Uh, but yes, it's lots of fun things to learn about really. right.
All the things.
so with, with adhd, so there's basically an attention side and there's a hyperactivity side. is that, is that correct? Kind of. Or they, that's
how it is in the dsm. Do I think that's a very incomplete picture? Yes, yes I do. Yeah. Um, so yeah, in terms of if you are looking for a diagnosis, there are three subtypes, inattentive subtype, hyperactive subtype, and combined. I am combined, um, and it's sort of like, are my, my brother's in attentive, my sister's hyperactive. So those are our my family gets all of it.
Um, those are pieces of it, but it, it does appear to be a thing that there are very few areas of the brain that you don't see some differences. You see some differences in overall, um, cortical matter. You're gonna see differences in the cerebellum, which is weird because that involves a lot of motor coordination. And then like, there are spectacular athletes with adhd. There's no way in. Peds your ability to be an athlete. Um, so why, who knows?
I've seen it in a study that says that there's weird activity during a working memory task. Why? Who knows. You can make guesses, right? Um, but, but another thing by that is there has been for a long time, a, a belief amongst people that it disappears in adulthood except for some tiny people. And, and I don't think I need a neuroscience degree to not think that a brain fundamentally does not alter, magically because a person is hit 18.
So I think it's worth saying like, if you struggle with things in childhood, you may just have good adaptations now. And be aware if your adaptations stop working, it's okay to ask for help in finding new ones.
Yeah. I would say that having to adapt to it for sure. We build that in, in, in ways and just because we think, oh, this is just something, this is how I am. And, and so if I do these other things, I can, you know, uh, I can be really successful. Cause I know for me, when I've done really good in sales jobs, I have, I plan the, the night before and then in the morning mm-hmm.
I have my notes and I review them, and then I have this whole thing I follow and then the next, the end of the day I review it. And when I do that, it's very easy. I know what to do. It's just easy peasy. Versus if I don't have that, then it's like, okay, what am I doing again today? So Yeah, really having that, knowing yourself and kind of finding the little tips that kind of work for you at least. Yeah.
And because this is a podcast that it's more mental health focused, I feel like it's worth mentioning. There's a quote, I can't tell you who originally said it, but it's been in the ADHD community. Forever, which is adhd rarely walks alone. So it would not, it's not surprising when people are like, yeah, and I also have depression and I also have anxiety, or I also am on the spectrum. Um, that's not unusual because a lot of, or I'm also dyslexic. There are a lot of others.
Comorbidities? Is that what it's called? They
call 'em comorbidities, but coexisting conditions sounds a lot less dramatic. Okay. over dramatic. Because mor morbid, you're like, are they dying? What's wrong? um, co coexisting conditions is, is I find the more palatable version.
So what, so when you were a kid, and, and I think we talked about this maybe before in the pre-call, when you're looking back at, I think like home movies, were you very, very outgoing and very talkative.
Yes. Very, uh, very outgoing, very talkative. Um, bouncing around while my parents asked me questions. Always were always playing some imagination game. That was always what was happening. Um, and until my sister came along who managed to outtalk me, which is just amazing
Oh, uhoh a talk. Athon. I'm like you in that way. I'm a, I'm a big talker. And, uh, my quick funny story is that recently my parents were like, you know, you're 43. We still have a bunch of stuff in our attic at our house. like last fall. They used to wrap. They used to wrap presents up and give to me was like my childhood presence and stuff, so mm-hmm. and my wife didn't want any this stuff at home, so I got rid of most of the things.
But yeah, uh, I found like old, like report cards from like grade school. and they were always like, Kerry's very talkative. Kerry laughs a lot. He's disrupting the class because he's just so chatty and, and jovial and everything. So I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah, see, it's been going on for a while. That makes sense. And that's just kind of the personality. And
I have this one spectacular teacher just, you know, curious in all the right ways, just willing to try things. I, I heard she became a principal later, um, Ms. Lackey, and I remember her talking to me and I'd been moved to this other seat that was like, sort of in the corner a little bit, like, not like bad in the corner, but like front, right by the window, so that I was near fewer people. And she was like, Hey, how are you doing at this spot? I was like, that's fine. I didn't notice anything.
She goes, are you having an easier time focusing? My thought was I had a hard time focusing. I remember that. I don't remember any of the stuff that led up to her making this call where she puts me on the side. I was like, and I just remember thinking like, I'll just say yes cuz that's what the grownup expects me to say. Um, but this is like fourth grade
But this is the same thing for me. I think this is like fifth grade, but this is so similar to that because, um, I don't know if I told my fr my teacher or she suggested it that I'd not sit next to my friend. I'm like, he makes me laugh too much. And I, and so she moved us apart cuz I was just laughing too much in class and and, and so I can, I can see that. So that, that, that makes sense. When you had those great teachers and my fifth grade teacher Ms. Donica was the best teacher ever.
And I still see her occasionally, like, well, we're friends on Facebook, but I ran into her like probably 10 years ago or something, And she's just, she's awesome. So when you have like a good teacher that gets you, it's, it's, it's so, so shout out, what was your teacher's name again?
The, this one was Ms. Lackey.
Shout out Ms. Lackey. It's kind of, it's interesting to talk to other people and kind of see what they went through and, and it helps us to kind of Oh, that makes sense. Another thing as far as with ADHD is the working memory, the executive function. Can you kind of get into that, explain what that is and.
Yeah, so working memory is easy to see and the one on an IQ test is not the best metric of working memory, but what is is hardly debated amongst researchers. But, um, but there is a section on working memory in the intelligence test. And when you look at somebody with A D H D, usually what you'll see is a big discrepancy between all their other areas and then the working memory. So mine, my three other subsets are high. Um, and then there's working memory where I am below average.
Like for a lot of neurotypical folks, those four, they're similar. They, they end up correlating with each other most of the time. And that's just straight up, not true for us. And the working memory comes into a lot of play in a lot of different places. It comes into play where, um, you know, even more than other people, we should write stuff down cuz. Stuff you wanna hold onto or even think further about doesn't belong in your head.
It's way too easy to get sort of twisted around in the overthinking and, and externalizing it is important because we can't think about it and examine it at the same time. Like when it's only inside, we have no perspective for examining how, how can we make that decision about whatever it is. Even if it's like, when do I get up, when, when there's nothing outside of us. It's just right there.
And, and that's one of the places where, you know, if you remember to use it correctly, having a phone on you can be great cuz it's like, oh, I can write down the stuff I'm about to go do right now. Um, and that, that can be really helpful. Um, the, the working memory, it just, it comes in in so many places cuz it's, what am I holding onto right now? I. it, it affects our ability to do those small, tedious tasks, right? Like, I'm trying to do a thing and I need to reference something else.
At the same time, like all of a sudden this has become this complicated thing when really it's actually a tiny, small thing that it's just like I need to remember what prescription I'm asking for and also call the pharmacy at the same time. And it seems so silly that that should trip me up when I can, you know, manage big, giant projects in a business. But, but it does, and, and it's when those simple things are tripping you up.
Um, it, it's also why it's harder to keep neat for a lot of people with adhd, but also at the same time more important because we're less likely to be able to filter out, are surroundings to find what we actually need. and it does come down to that control piece again, where it's, it's not about having attention or not having attention, it's how much control do we have over it. So, you know, um, I can't remember where my driver's license is and I have to look for two days for it. Real example.
Um, but somebody in my family says, Hey, have ya seen, uh, this wallet? I wasn't trying to remember where this wallet was. It's not my wallet. I assume that the person knows where their wallet is. But all of a sudden I have the image, like I must have paid attention to it at some point. I didn't control that. Right. I can't, I can't make it happen next time. It just, I happened to notice that because my attention wasn't entirely in my control.
Like where that working memory, what it was collecting and keeping, I didn't get to pick it. Um, and one of the ways we can pick it is, and as silly as it sounds, is just limiting. That stuff, like if there's a room you have a hard time getting work done in, that might be the room to clean first. Like, so there's just less in it to sidetrack us on the way, so less we can have cluttering up our memory like our, our active working memory, what we're doing.
W when you declutter it, like there's less to see. And I'm not saying literal decluttering is the only way to do it, but you know, it could also be I have an automation on my computer that's gonna close every window except for the one on the project I'm about to work on. And, and there're tools to do that, at least on Mac. I don't know about pc, um, nearly as much. Um, but it, what it can do, and I use this.
in graduate school for my thesis is it's closing everything except for the things I need now. I don't have to use as much of that resource to remember what am I working on, what do I wanna see? There's less open to distract me in the middle and, and have me veer off on the wrong tr like, what can we do ahead of time? You know, what are those habits I wanna do? You know, you work organizing, you did it the day before, um, and then checked in afterwards.
Like, what can I do in advance to limit it so that my brain is an asset in the environment I create, create instead of, uh, a deficit.
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I actually, even today, uh, we had someone looking at painting or upstairs where I'm at right now, and so we have a lot less stuff up here and, and it felt like, like this feels kind of nice. Like there's not a lot in here actually, and my wife is more of a, a minimalist and stuff. Um, but I like to collect things. Uh, so there's that kind of balance of things.
So I have like to have my little knickknacks here and there, but, uh, but yeah, just looking around, not seeing as much stuff. There's not as much distractions. Uh, and with, with technology how great it is. It also is very distracting. And so, especially with, with going online, you can Google anything and you can go down a path and something comes down your head and if you're getting off your subject right now and then going to that, it's, it's a problem.
So that's, what are some of the ones, I guess, for the Mac that you use as far as the one that closes down the browsers and whatnot?
So, a simpler one than the one I use is Bunch. Um, I tend to actually use Keyboard Maestro because I built that habit before Bunch existed, which is a tool by keyboard. Uh, uh, bunch is a tool by Brett Turkstra. Um, And, and keyboard Meister was another one that does a lot of very fancy things. Um, and focus modes is another one. You know, who's allowed to contact me or interrupt me Right now, just generally making really mindful choices about our notifications.
Um, very few people work in an environment where emails ever need to make a sound. Um, things like that. Like what, what are the things that could cause me to go down this other hole that isn't where I'm meant to go? And one of the most important things that any, any ADDer can learn is to sort of develop the mindset of a scientist instead of as a self judger. Um, instead of saying, oh, that was terrible. I'm awful.
I, you know, was on Google for an hour and a half, um, thinking, oh, how did I end up there? And, and looking at it as an observer, like, there's not something wrong. except that that wasn't what I intended. How did I get there? Was there a notification that went off? You know, I'm a big proponent of that sheet of paper. I talked about all things I could Google go there because my first instinct of I should Google that is right, like 15% of the time.
And most of the time it is not in fact something I need to Google at all. And, and so I try to write those down rather than going off on that road right now because curiosity is one of the ADHD strengths. Um, but not when I'm supposed to be doing something else And, and so figuring out like where, where are those tangents coming from so that I can then make a plan to not have it do it next time.
Well, I just wanna briefly touch on, on this is like, this is a whole nother conversation, what I'm about to bring up. But you have a course focus pocus love the name from Aggravated to Navigated, and uh, Kindly, you're very kindly let me to, to go through your your course. Excuse me. And I just started going through part of it and it just kind of nicely breaks things down. I like how you're very positive and animated with, with everything.
I like that it's genuine because these are things that you deal with as well. So tell me a little bit about that. This course you have.
One of the top things that people would ask me is needing a task manager. And there were a lot of folks with ADHD and because we can get stuck in that decision fatigue so easily and, and there were just a lot of things that I found myself. Saying over and over again that I, I thought it was worthwhile putting some of that out in, in a reliable location, to say like, Hey, here's a bunch of the stuff that you need to know if you're wanting to get good at this task stuff.
And it's primarily around choosing a task manager. Um, and sometimes choosing one for now that isn't maybe the one you want someday, but it's good enough for now. Um, but it also touches on things like building up those habits and, and things like that. Um, you know, I, I, if folks wanna do it and they wanna do it as part of coaching, I do offer a discount on the coach.
On, on the course when people are coaching with me, um, I'm looking into doing an NSYNC version, like with a cohort, uh, either later this year or early next year, sort of depending on some life stuff.
Um, when you, sorry, when you said nsync, it made me go to the band right away. That's my moment.
I. I'm so sorry, but, but it's become co common with like over covid. Like this was your sync class, so you're not sync class. Yes, yes. So sorry, um, co cohort based. Um, and, and anybody who signs up before that will get a discount to the cohort one. Um, but at the moment it's, it's, it's very self-paced unless you choose to do it with a coach myself or anybody else.
Um, but it's, it's sort of that, like these are all the things I want somebody with ADHD to know who's picking a task management system. Um, and, and a lot of it is on not overthinking things because we can get really, really good at that.
Yeah, I'm definitely guilty in trying. all these different type of project management classes or course, or sorry, project management software out, uh, I've kind of just went back to, to Goodwill Google cuz it works across my devices and Google calendar and tasks and Google keeps kind of my repository for ideas. Yeah. With different tags and stuff. So cuz I was having it on my phone or pieces of paper, I'm like, okay, well let's just keep it in there. Um, I'll worry about it later, I guess.
The yeah. Yeah, the massive re repository. So where can people find that particular course?
I made a fancy link and I can't remember it off the top. Oh,
it's okay. We'll, we'll link to it. And I know, I believe you had, you have some type of, uh, code to my listeners that you're offering till the end of 2023. Indeed. Which I really
appreciate. Yeah. Um, so it's just one word, successfully depressed. It doesn't matter if you capitalize it or not. Um, and, and yeah, that's for 20% off of, of the self-paced course. Um, cuz I just want people to be able to try it and learn some things and get something out of it.
I appreciate that, you know, everyone I've interviewed that's in this space has been so kind and trying to get their information out and, or if they have courses, you know, offering at a, at a discount rate. So that's, that's great to make it more, you know, approachable for people. Uh, for people that maybe don't have a budget to, to go to do your course, what are some great mm-hmm. you know, free resources that are ADHD oriented.
You had mentioned one of them, which is Jessica McCabe's channel, um, how to adhd. There's also, and I'm blanking on her name. In fairness, we haven't actually met yet in person. ADHD is the new Black has some stuff. There's some YouTube things. A lot of my YouTube videos are mostly, mostly iPhone based actually, but they tend to have an attention bent because that's what I care about is technology and attention. Yeah, go through focus modes, things like that.
Uh, Chadd puts out some interesting information if folks are wanting to learn more about ADHD coaching in general. There's the ADHD coaches organization. I, I am on the board. Um, but it's, it's a place where, you know, there's a listing of ADHD coaches that have all like said, I have done a, some ADHD coaching training, whether or not finished their certification, they have done some amount of actual training to do it.
There's some resources like that if folks are looking for like, really not free, but very, very lowcost community support. There's ada, their website is ad d.org. Um, and they run a lot of peer support groups. So this isn't with, this isn't group coaching, which is a different thing, but if you're sort of wanting to dip your toes into the water and that's in your budget, um, then, then add as a place to go for that.
And then maybe just briefly touch up upon your ADHD guild that you've played with a, a colleague.
Yeah. Um, so a colleague that is also a gigantic nerd with me and we love nerding out together, um, who's also an ADHD coach. Uh, we made a community for folks with h ADHD who, who want to improve themselves. And it's really focused on nerdy deers. There's a whole lot of d and d players, um, There's, uh, but then there's people who nerd out on things that like, they're just theirs. But it's so cool because adhd nerd Energy is awesome, nerd energy.
We have a member who nerds out on vinegars like making vinegars. I didn't know that's a thing you could nerd out on, but I learned that. Are they Portland? In
fact, are they in, are they in the Portland? They were?
Yes. Okay, so Cause that's
very
point Portland. Yes, it's very Portland. They're not there anymore, but, um, but they were, at the time when they joined the Guild, um, at the top tier we have group coaching. It includes once a month ADHD coaching. But then at the bottom it's, you know, just joining the community and being a part of it. Maybe posting your daily goals to the daily goals channel. Um, you know, if you have a question, there's an ADHD questions channel that.
Your peers and when we can and have time, one of the coaches will come by and answer it too. And so there's a lot of opportunities for shared support. The middle tier and, and the highest tier both have co-working. So we talked about like getting stuff done with a person can be really helpful. And so we have a co-working channel. It's, it's Discord server based. And so there's just a, a voice channel in, in Discord that you can hop on anytime and, and some people can join you and work.
It totally depends on other people's availability obviously. But yeah, it's got a lot of things like that and they're just, is there any super fun supportive
group? Yeah. And it looks, it looks fun from the website and like I, it references the Simpsons and stuff on there, so, uh, yeah, I love The Simpsons. So that's like just the fun pop, I love pop culture too, so I just love the references to things like that. Is there anything else that you want people to know or a good place for people to find you?
Um, I'm branching out into TikTok, but I'm still very woo-hoo certain of it. Um, I'm, I'm working, I'm working on getting more comfortable. I went to film school. It's not, it does not come naturally to me to have this non-IT editing thing. I do have a YouTube channel. I dunno how much I will keep doing it if I move to TikTok. That's something I'm exploring with a business coach right now, which are great.
Recommend them Um, uh, and then, you know, anything you wanna know for me, my, my website for coaching is conquer.consulting.
Well, again, Brittany Smith, I appreciate your time today. I always like to end the show. Remember, you're not alone in life or business. Not at all.