¶ Intro / Opening
My perspective on it is being neurodivergent comes with strengths. And it comes with struggles. There's nothing to be ashamed of with any of those things. And it's okay to recognize that like for an ADHD or having a hard time with executive functioning might also be coupled with having excellent divergent thinking skills. So recognizing that those things
can go together. But as a clinician, the way that I view my work as a therapist, as far as D pathologizing, is my goal when I'm working with a client is to help them get what they want, and get what they need. Without changing who they are. You should have the tools at your disposal to recognize what your strengths and what your struggles are and when when you went to access those.
Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Shipman. Let's get started. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to successful with ADHD today I have the pleasure of interviewing Emily carrucha Morris she has two master's
¶ Emily shares her journey of being identified as gifted and diagnosed with ADHD.
degrees in LPC and she's inspired by her own experiences as a neurodivergent person and abroad are on today to successful with ADHD because her mission is dedicated to de stigmatizing neurodiversity and supporting neurodivergent people of all ages. She started her career at education and is now in private practice near St. Louis, Missouri as a licensed professional counselor, where she specializes in supporting neurodivergent kids and adults
and their families. And I had the pleasure of being on Emily's podcast, the neurodiversity podcast, which explores the psychological, educational and social needs of neurodivergent people. She's the author of several books, not just one related to parenting, educating neurodivergent children and teens. She speaks at statewide national international conferences and frequently provides virtual and in person professional developments to educators, mental health clinicians and parents
worldwide. And many of our presentations and workshops can also be found at the neurodiversity University online learning platform. Emily and I met at the International ADHD conference when she actually was talking about this very topic. And today, we are going to get into the topic that not enough people are talking about which is twice exceptional children, and adults, also known as to E. We're going to talk about all of the ins and outs, why it goes
undiagnosed. Why it can be challenging for children to get the services that they need as twice exceptional, and what it can look like in adulthood. So very warm. Welcome, Emily, thank you for being on successful with ADHD.
Oh, thank you so much, Brooke, I'm excited to have this talk. Me
too. Me too. So I just wanted to talk about again, the twice exceptional or chewy as pupil See, which refers to intellectually gifted children. And generally these people have one or more learning disabilities such as dyslexia, ADHD, ASD. And it's hard to tell if someone is twice exceptional as a child, because they're often labeled as gifted and do well academically in school. So Emily, when did you learn you are twice exceptional?
Well, first of all, the term twice exceptional really hasn't been around all that long. So you mentioned that I have two master's degrees. So my first master's is in education, with certification and gifted education. I got that master's degree in the early 2000s. And at that time, while we were talking about giftedness, and that there might be some gifted students who also have a diagnosis of say, ADHD, we weren't even using the term
twice exceptional. So so it was kind of it's kind of a new concept, but for what it's worth, I was identified and placed in a gifted ed program when I was in second grade. And I was diagnosed as ADHD when I was in fifth grade. So I've known about those two kind of competing pieces of my psychology since then, but didn't necessarily have the language to describe it really, until the last, you know, 15 or so years.
So what happened, were you So you were putting to give to classes in second grade and then later diagnosed with ADHD? What happened in between those years that got you to the ADHD diagnosis?
Well, my mom was a special educator. So she was really an advocate for me, and she was the one who insisted that I was tested for the gifted program, actually, because I was not one of the students who would have been referred by my teachers. I was very disorganized, very impulsive. And, and one of my teachers was quoted as saying at one of my parent teacher conferences, you know, Emily, Work is generally correct, we just have to dump out her desk
to find it. And you know, and so I was, it was really difficult for me. So, as with many types of neurodivergent, as I got older, the struggles became more prevalent that came to the surface more because the expectations for my executive
functioning were increased. So by the time I got to fifth grade, I had my classroom teacher who was advocating and saying that I should not be allowed to go to the gifted education program, because it was a privilege and I wasn't doing well in the classroom, my grades were really pretty poor. I had a lot of missing work, but I would take the tests and do
fine on the tests. And so you know, it was, again, my mom who really advocated so this was in 1991, at a time when really, ADHD was still a pretty new diagnosis. That was, it was back when we still had ADD versus ADHD, you know, and they were kind of separate things. But she took me and got me diagnosed, even though it was a girl again, which was pretty rare. I do always also like to just mention that I was assessed and
diagnosed in 1991. And Asperger's at the time wasn't even added to the DSM until 1994. And I know that if I were a kid today, we would have looked at that piece as well, because I recognize a lot of those traits in myself, and especially when I was a kid when I look back at that, but yeah, it was it was an interesting process and having the diagnosis. I mean, I don't know how much it helped, necessarily. I mean, it did in some ways. But there weren't a whole lot of
supports for that. And my teachers really didn't know what to do with somebody who could do the work, but just wasn't.
Yeah. So do you have an ASD diagnosis as well?
I don't I don't I question that often. And I have some mixed feelings about self diagnosis. I think as a clinician, I kind of have one foot in the medical community, which I know, you know, I tried to be as non pathologizing as possible. And one word, one foot in the neurodiversity community, which really advocates for self diagnosis. But it's kind of hard because I know so much about it. I don't I don't know. And so I
suspect that that. Like I said, I know I have a lot of those traits, they may be sub diagnostic, I don't know if it would meet diagnostic threshold if I were assessed. But I question a daily,
I definitely want to go into what you just said a little bit more, if you don't mind. But first, I want to go back to when you were saying that you had a mom who advocated for you, she was in special education, which is amazing. We all need advocates, mentors, and you were performing well on your tests, you just couldn't find
your papers. And I can't tell you even today, how often that happens with gifted students and them either not getting the advancement that they need, or not getting the support in those advanced classes. So what have you noticed in your work since you are working as a clinician, and you're part of the neurodivergent community yourself, with students in the classroom today who are labeled as twice exceptional.
¶ The shift in gifted education programs towards universal screening.
So here's a shift that happened in gifted education programs. Because gifted education programs historically have been not very diverse. As far as as cultural and linguistic diversity, there has been a push within the last decade, maybe even a little bit longer, to really make sure that we are catching students who come from different backgrounds, right, that are not part of the
majority culture. Because typically when we would rely on teacher referrals, the students who were identified were the students who were compliant, who followed middle class norms. And were, you know, highly verbal.
And so, so in this process, we've moved to what's called universal screening, where best practice really is for schools to at certain grade levels, usually at least one or two in the elementary level, where they test every student and try to screen every student for placement in the gifted education process. So with that happening, what also ended up happening is we ended up finding a lot of these twice exceptional kids who weren't previously
being diagnosed. And so right now, education in general, is having a really interesting time trying to figure out how to support these kids. And I work with schools across the country. And it's very, it's very different in every single building or district that you go to. And I will say, you know, I've had teachers, especially teachers who've been in the profession for a longer time.
And you know, they might be in the Gifted Education Program, or they're teaching and they will look at me and they will say, I don't understand the kids that we're getting today are just different. They're not you know, it's like and I'm having a really hard time with their behaviors or executive functioning. I'm like, You're right. They are different. They weren't being identified previously. But that doesn't mean that they don't need and
deserve services. Correct. And so that's kind of where it is now, but but there's still a long way to go. Just as far as understanding, I find that people who work in gifted education tend to have a greater knowledge of it. But even general education, or especially special education teachers, often are unfamiliar, sometimes even with the entire concept, let alone how to support those students.
Yeah, you're absolutely right, I'm seeing it in my own stepson who is definitely twice exceptional, he's gifted, he has ADHD. And he is being not supported. Granted, he's in a private school. So they don't have to. There's the distinction. But I'm curious on what's going to happen to him if he goes to a public school because he is in honors programs. But he's not getting accommodations, he's not getting special education services. And
I used to be a co teacher. And I worked with a general education teacher in sixth grade. And we worked hand in hand with people in our class who were gifted, and who were not gifted, and people who are twice exceptional. And I don't understand. And I hopefully, because I've been out of public education for six years at this
point. But hopefully, what you're seeing is that there are more special education teachers who are pushing into those accelerated classes and to those gifted classes for the twice exceptional it so they could have that opportunity to be met with their potential.
¶ The difficulty for twice-exceptional students to qualify for services.
What I find, as far as services that are available is that a lot of twice exceptional students really have difficulty qualifying for services under Ida. And partially, that's because their academics aren't necessarily suffering, it's much easier for them to access accommodations through section
504 plan. But I have yet to find a school that has a special education teacher who pushes into the advanced level courses, the student might have, like resources like they might like even if they do have an IEP, they might be able to access special education, like a resource teacher or something like that. And I understand from a logistical standpoint, when you're doing a co taught class, you typically have a small cluster or group of students who
have similar needs. And I can understand that a lot of schools probably have a hard time justifying putting a co taught teacher in a class for a single student, because you're not probably going to have a whole lot of students who have IEPs in those co taught classes, nonetheless, what I find is, is a bigger barrier more than anything is that usually what those kids need are accommodations, extended time, audio books, you know, those types of things, and teachers in those honors and advanced
placement courses. Frequently, their suggestion, suggestion to those students is to take a lower level class. Yep. It's so but that's not an accommodation, that's a denial of access. And
that's, that's putting them down in the more restrictive environment, which right makes no sense because they're not given the opportunity that other children without services are given. Like, is that that denial of access? Well,
and I think also, it's important to realize with two week kids that just because a student can take an honors or an AP course doesn't mean that they have to, or that they should, I think it but but for example, though, like I know, a lot of twice exceptional kids who are gifted autistic, and a couple of them have this passion for history, right? They also pretty slow processing speed. And so they want to take those advanced placement classes, but they do
need some accommodations. But cognitively, they know that material, they're passionate about that material, we should, they should absolutely be given the opportunity to take those courses. But it really is a shift in mindset that is required for the educators to kind of wrap their heads around, like how is this course it's supposed to be very rigorous? How do I accommodate without making it less rigorous? Because I think there's value to that.
And I think that that's just a just a situation that they haven't been faced with as much to really develop those skills.
Yeah. And what I've noticed too is the longer you wait, as someone going into an accelerated or honors class, the harder it is to bridge the gap. So if you have that ability to go in, right, like start when you can, and if it's too rigorous even with the accommodations are like sensory overload or behaviorally, you just are breaking down even with every accommodation that you're receiving then You could always go back, it's a lot easier to go back and move forward.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I had a client one time who she was in a co taught math class. And the reason they did that more than anything, so it was so she could get her IEP minutes in. And so they put her in that Kotak class because she didn't want to give up any electives. And that was during middle school. But then when she got to high school, she wanted to take an advanced level science course. But she had because she had been in that Kotak class, she hadn't had the
higher level math. And so then even though they allowed her to take that science class, it was very difficult for her because her math was a year behind those other students in that class. But they, you know, it was they weren't forward thinking, when they put her in that class. They were just, and I mean, the parents were a part of that, too. I mean, I think they just didn't really consider what that full impact would have been for her, you know, as she got older, but a co taught class
is supposed to be at the same level, it wasn't
let me let me rephrase the Advanced Math, though, would have been a grade above, right. So like in school level, like you can take algebra as an eighth grader or whatever, whereas most students, so she was in the typical, she was in what would have been appropriate for her grade level, but she wasn't in the advanced level course. Then she wanted to take the advanced level science. I
see. I see. So besides the academic piece of either not being given access, not receiving appropriate accommodations, because technically, they're not seeing impact in education, even though if you look a little bit deeper, there probably is an impact on education, because they aren't performing to their potential right. What else do you notice about twice exceptional students? In schools?
¶ The frustration and imposter syndrome experienced by twice-exceptional students.
Yeah. One of the big pieces is that it's very frustrating for those students to have this discrepancy between their ability and what their performances. So whatever setting they're in, they know that they get the content, but then when their work doesn't measure up, it kind of can definitely lead to this imposter syndrome. Right? Where, where I know, I can do this stuff, sometimes why can't I do it all the time? Why is it so inconsistent, it also frequently
gets explained away. So, you know, there is a lot of stigma surrounding neurodivergent diagnoses like ADHD and autism. And, and giftedness is not so much just like, oh, no, they're gifted, that's, you know, wonderful, like, society values that in a different way. And so frequently, because some of those signs can mimic each other. For those twice exceptional kids, often one will get missed. So if they're identified as gifted, it's often much harder to get that diagnosis of that, you know,
second exceptionality. Or if they are identified with that diagnosis, again, it's then sometimes they don't get referred or placed in those in those other classes. But for example, you can also have twice exceptional individuals who are bright and dyslexic. And that is really hard, because what you'll find is that these kids have extensive vocabularies and lots of background knowledge. And when you speak to them, they
have all of these words. And then when they go to read and write, it's, it's much more basic, because there are so many barriers to them being able to, to sound out the words or whatever might be happening there. And so it's just really hard for them to figure out always where they fit, and who they are, as a student. Sure, having
that reading, learning disability, and you know, having that discrepancy, may be reading on a lower grade level, fluently. And comprehension wise, if you're reading the text can be extremely challenging, especially when you have your standardized test. And you're not given those accommodations. You don't have audio books while you're following along. And yeah, I can imagine that it's
frustrating for the child. It's frustrating for the teacher, it's frustrating for the parent to put a comprehensive plan and put all the pieces together. So he's every child is unique. Just because you have a two year label, does it mean that this is a one size fits all solution? Well, it's
kind of like saying somebody's neurodivergent, right, like it's such a broad label, it could mean a million different things. And even if you boil it down and say, Oh, well, this is a gifted, you know, ADHD or Well, again, one that can look very different from one student to the next.
Yeah. Wow. So tell me about what happens, or what you've noticed, in people who have not been identified as twice exceptional as an adult, but they are I should add that piece. So
¶ The challenges faced by twice-exceptional adults who were not identified as such.
you will sometimes see memes going around people will share things about being a burnt out gifted kid, right like a gift, someone who was identified as gay. If did when they were young, and now they're an adult, and they're basically failure. And not, I mean, it's a meme. It's, you
know, exact short. But my personal theory about that is that those are probably all twice exceptional people who never were identified when they were young, and never had any supports, but were able to get by, they kind of flew under the radar and did well enough, they did well enough on the test where they got through, or they used anxiety as a coping skill to like overcompensate for areas that were difficult for them. And then they get to adulthood. And it's, it's hard, and it and
it kind of falls apart. And for what it's worth, even students who don't have a lot of supports in school, explicit supports, school is a very structured setting, there are a lot of built in supports there that you maybe don't have in adulthood. And so then again, that imposter syndrome, that that you know, feeling ineffective, you know, you have burnout, that is can be a factor. And so there can be a lot of those pieces that really impact adulthood.
I see out there a lot that people with memes, and on social media now are identifying as having an autism burnout. Hmm. So I know that not everyone with, you know, who identifies as having autism is also gifted. Hang
¶ The higher proportion of autistic individuals who are also gifted.
on, let me I'll interrupt you for one second on that. Okay, search does show that of individuals who are identified as autistic, they are one and a half times more likely than the general public to also have intelligence in the superior range. And so, so there is a higher proportion of autistic people who are gifted compared to the general population. Anyway, continue. I just find that fascinating.
No, I appreciate you sharing that. So that's, that's really good information to know, especially since you brought that up. And I'm not going to get too far into it. But you know, love is on the spectrum. You know, they're showing people who are artistic and are of lower intelligence. So it's nice that you can bring to the community into the listeners here that there's one and a half times the chance that if you are autistic, you're also of higher intelligence. Yeah.
Yeah, I haven't watched the new season I watched the last season, I had mixed feelings about it. I think, in general, it's a benefit to the neurodiversity community to have people interested in learning about this and working to kind of normalize some of those experiences, it's not a perfect
paradigm. But when we're talking about autism, specifically, and this term is really not used very much anymore, but some people still refer to high functioning autism, what we would say now is low support needs or level one, but what you have to realize is like, basically what that means high functioning autism, quote, unquote, is not the same as twice exceptional gifted
autistic. What that means specifically is that somebody who is verbal, who probably would have qualified for a diagnosis of Asperger's back when that was the case, they didn't necessarily have a language delay. But But intelligence wise on an IQ test, you're maybe looking at, like maybe like some in the average range or about so like 90 or above. So there's a big range there have what that might be
considered. The other thing too is for what it's worth is you might have somebody who is gifted autistic, who has very, very hard time with social connections and that type of communication. So what you see on the surface isn't necessarily always what you might get in other situations.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that social piece too. Can you talk a little bit more about that for adults who are autistic.
¶ Emily's thoughts on the social aspects of autism.
One aspect of being autistic is is differences in social communication, and connections. There are some autistic individuals who don't personally have a lot of value on social relationships, they're happy to just be on their own. And that's fine. I think sometimes, especially for younger autistic people, their parents kind of push them to be more social, even though that's not necessarily a drive that they
themselves experienced. But also you have people who are autistic, who are very social, and really want those relationships, but just maybe have a harder time kind of figuring out how to build those connections and find people that they really connect with. I have found that many of those social skills, again using a medical term, quote unquote, deficits, not my favorite word, but those those difficulties actually melt away when autistic individuals find people who share similar
passions as them. So when they can talk about Pokemon, or computer coding or movies or whatever it is, it makes it much easier to develop those authentic relationships and connections. And so I find that for autistic adults, that is a good way for them to fulfill whatever that social need is that they that they feel.
Yeah, there's so much more I have to say about autism. And I also want to get into the topic. And I know it's highly controversial, but I'm gonna go there. So pathologizing versus looking at the individual and meeting them where they are, again, as a clinician,
¶ Navigating the controversial topic of pathologizing.
it's, it's odd to kind of see both sides of this. Do I wish that we lived in a world where we didn't need labels, and people could just have accommodations that would meet whatever those needs are? Absolutely. But we are not there yet. And so I recognize it is important for people to have accurate labels or diagnoses.
And I think sometimes we have to address the fact that you cannot completely deep anthologized something, but then also talk about it as a disability, which sometimes people in the neurodiversity community want to do. They want to say, you know, this shouldn't be pathologized, it should be normalized, it's my way of being, but also, it's a
disability. And when you get into that, you start talking about like, the social model of disability and recognizing that as the environment that is not accommodating, that then makes something a disability. But, but I kind of have a difficult piece there. My perspective on it is being neurodivergent comes with strength, and it comes with struggles. And there's nothing to be ashamed of with any of
those things. And it's okay to recognize that, like, for an ADHD, or like having a hard time with executive functioning might also be coupled with having excellent divergent thinking skills, right. And so and you can't like if you took away some of the executive functioning difficulties, you probably wouldn't have that divergent thinking. So recognizing that those things can go together.
But as a clinician, the way that I view my work as a therapist, as far as D pathologizing, is, my goal when I'm working with a client is to help them get what they want, and get what they need, without changing who they are. And that's what I think the essence of D pathologizing is, it means that you are not broken, you are not wrong, I went, I went to honor who you are. And there might be times when you want to choose to mask or to camouflage some traits.
There might be times when you want to request accommodations, and other times that you don't, but you should have the tools at your disposal to recognize what your strengths and what your struggles are. And when when you went to access those.
I love that. And thank you for sharing that. I think that is really intelligent. And beautifully said, and I'll kind of just leave it at that because I don't really have much more to add than what you added. I also want to just talk about masking for a second. Because people do very often, especially on social media look at masking as a bad
thing. But I would challenge the listeners here and people out there to say that neurodivergent or not, we all mask at different times, you're not going to show up the same at work as you are with your closest friends as you are with your partner as you are with your kids. Right. We are acting differently all the time. So what would you call that?
¶ The nuances of masking and camouflaging, and the importance of having the tools.
Here are my thoughts about masking and camouflaging? Because I think what sometimes happens for people who are very, for the terminally online of us, which I claim I'm part of that yes, yes. But but in especially in the neurodiversity bubble, we tend to have this conversation that masking is inherently bad. camouflaging is inherently bad. And I think what we miss with that is a little bit of a dose of reality, which is the fact that this is the world we live
in. And unfortunately, as much efforts that we make to create a neurodiversity affirming world, we have a long way to go. So for example, one of the very stereotypical things that people talk about with masking and especially with autistic individuals is the difficulty with making eye contact, right? Not all autistic individuals struggle with that, but but it is kind of one of the things
that people know about. And in the past, from a therapeutic standpoint, what people have done is taught you it's like well, you can either train somebody to make eye contact, or you can help them learn like well you can look at somebody's nose or you can you know, look at their ear or whatever. You can even fake it. So teaching them how to mask My perspective on it is that it should never be the expectation that somebody
should do that. But they might want to have that tool at their disposal for when they go to a job interview or something where it's like they can mask if they want to, or they could self advocate and say, I actually can listen and focus on what you're saying much better when I'm looking at the ground. So just please know that I am paying attention, right? I think when we bring it back to the school
setting. So often, we teach kids to mask, because it makes them look like they're focused, based on neuro normative standards. But I don't know if you've noticed this book. But I'm sitting here and I'm swinging back and forth in my chair, as I always do. It's one of my little stems, I've got my little fidget ring here, right. But these are things that are useful for me to help me focus. And I just
explain it if I need to. But but at the same time, though, I know that there are times when even those little things can be distracting to other folks. And so I try to be aware of that. But But when I'm, if I were a student, though, in a classroom, and I didn't have some of these little abilities to move into fidget and to you know, have some of that that movement, I promise you, I'd be more focused on the fact that I couldn't do that then on whatever it is that you wanted me to be focusing on?
Sure.
So then can you define what masking actually is?
Sure. So So technically, this is where I, this is where you see some of my autistic traits coming out, I like to be very specific and exactly it's due. So so technically in the literature, camouflaging is actually the the umbrella term. So camouflaging refers to a variety of behaviors that somebody might engage with, in order to blend in. So within that you kind of have subcategories. So the subcategories kind of can be masking, which is suppressing
one traits. So So holding back my authentic traits, whatever those are, in order to not draw attention to myself, or to look more similar to others around me, or mimicking, which is the addition of behaviors that aren't natural to me. And so then I'm imitating either maybe verbally or behaviorally what others are doing in order to, to gain acceptance, or to to blend in. And so those are really kind of the things that you might
see. So ADHD ears, a lot of times will mask as far as really trying to curb how they communicate, especially like if they tend to talk without, without the pauses, and, you know, or they interrupt or, again, some of the fidgeting, those types of things. You know, autistic individuals have a lot of those those pieces as well. But just to kind of try to build that connection with community, which is important. So
do you think that anyone can truly unmask or on camouflage their entire day, their entire life in all situations? Well,
it would depend on what their life looks like? That's a hard question to answer, because I think it's so unique to individuals. So for example, a lot of neurodivergent people either have their special interests are their hyper fixations. And what I have found is that I have a job that lets me talk about my special interest all the time, right. So that does allow me to be much more authentic in what I'm
doing. I don't have to mask and try to fit into other conversations, because it is more natural and automatic for me to talk about the things that I have that high interest with. So it kind of depends on what the environment is, you know, and hypothetically, if somebody worked from home, and you know, whatever their job is, they might be able to unmask quite a bit of the time. It just kind of I think, really, there's just so many factors that influence that. I probably don't think
it's real. It's realistic to really think that somebody could not camouflage at some level. Some of the time.
Yeah. Yeah. And then my last thing on masking, what do you think is an unhealthy level of masking?
¶ Defining an unhealthy level of masking and the importance of weighing the benefits.
So this is how I talk about this with my clients. When I talk about empowering people to make decisions about their masking, it's always about weighing out benefits and drawbacks, right. So so what is the benefit to me? Not swinging in my chair when I'm doing this interview, right? The benefit is if if people are, are watching a video of it, it won't be distracting to them, it won't be as distracting to you I might look more professional. The drawback is that it takes
away my focus. It's hard for me to do that. I'm not as comfortable. I'm a little more anxious, right. And so Oh, the benefit versus the drawback is the, it's much more beneficial for me to go ahead and not worry about that and not try to mask
that. Right? So if I'm going into a situation where I'm with my peers, and I am wanting to develop some friendships, but there are people who maybe I don't know as well, when I went do that, weighing something out, you know, what are the benefits of masking a particular characteristic versus the drawbacks? How much stress or how much anxiety is going to call cause me to do that, and then just making a decision
about that. But you have to really be in tune with what works for yourself, in order to really realize this, because I do believe that some neurodivergent people develop a real sense of learned helplessness, as far as I always feel this uncomfortable, I always feel this anxious, because I'm always trying to fit in in different situations. And they've never been empowered to
make those decisions. And so if you don't have an awareness of like, what your tolerance level is, or what it feels like, when you're not masking, it's hard to make that decision about whether or not to do something or not do something. Does that make sense? Yeah.
And what would you say would be the first step of awareness of when to unmask? For people who don't know? Well,
I guess my thought would be, you know, trusting one's instincts, like, what are your feelings, right. And so if you're feeling really anxious, or uncomfortable, that's a sign, you know, understanding your emotions about that, really kind of reflecting on what the impact is on yourself and what it is on somebody else. And then And then, you know, try to kind of just train and experimenting with different forms of that expression, different levels of unmasking, to see what feels
right. And you have to do in safe environments. And hopefully, maybe you have some trusted people that you can check in with about that, to see what they how they reflect on it. You know, I think more than anything, I guess, the biggest negative outcome for excessive camouflaging and masking is stress, anxiety, and eventually burnout. And so, so when you are noticing those things in yourself, that's really is the cue to say I need to kind of figure out what's, what's going
on here? And are there some things that I can like, let down my guard, you know, in those areas and be more authentic, where I feel safe, in order to reduce that constant pressure and stress?
Yeah, yeah. I love that. Going back to twice exceptional. I've interviewed a couple of people who are tui, I also have had coaches who are to e, in coaching with Brooke, and not knowing the coping mechanisms as a child, they have dealt with burnout, they have dealt with drug abuse in the past, because they just didn't know how to cope. Right. Have you seen a lot of that in your practice?
¶ The impact of prolonged exposure to stress and lack of support.
You know, it's so interesting, the factors that influence our identity. And so much of that comes from the time that we are young. So if you are a student who is twice exceptional, who isn't provided any support, so as you grow up, what are the messages that you're learning about yourself? What are the things that you're tying to your identity? Am I somebody who is a perfectionist
and has to get all A's? Because I had some negative feedback, you know, and now I like overcompensate again with that perfectionism. Am I somebody who just doesn't try things, and I procrastinate because that's easier. And I have a hard time motivating myself. And maybe I just attribute that, you know, while I'm lazy, that's, you know, that's how I that's part of my identity. That's how I see
myself. And I think that undoing that recognizing the prolonged exposure to stress, which ultimately can lead to trauma in an educational environment growing up, like it just is really difficult to unwind all of that. And to put it all into perspective, in order to then figure out like, what are the actual healthy coping skills that I can use?
Yeah. And it changes to over time because your situation changes, for instance, growing up, I had undiagnosed ADHD, and I was bullied my entire life from fourth grade on till I realized I had ADHD and got coach. And once I started coaching, I was able to set boundaries, right, I was able to feel a lot more like I had this intrinsic self esteem. But as my life evolves, I remember Parents, I have to nurture diverging kids, I have a
toddler. So everything changes, right, there's a lot more interactions and stress, good and bad stress, right? That can bring you back. And those negative memories get encoded. So just because you feel like you have worked through a lot of this don't, I guess I'm what I'm trying to say is Don't feel ashamed if you ever have to go back and do the hard work, because you know that those negative memories are so much stronger than the positive ones. Well,
and I think also, especially as parents raising neurodivergent kids, first of all, there are so many parents who don't even realize that they're neurodivergent until their child gets diagnosed. Sure, but but also the the countertransference that we experienced with our kids as they go through school, and having to try to advocate for them, but it brings up all of those feelings from our own past experiences in school as
well. And, you know, we have to kind of really be aware of that, to recognize how our experiences are influencing our decisions about our kids today, because maybe that's maybe not the best place to get information. You know, based on our own past emotions, I mean, we just have to be observant. Yeah, of where those things are coming from, which does require, you know, some self awareness and therapy, coaching, all of those things. That's those are helpful.
Those are very helpful. Yeah, it's
hard to do that on your own. Absolutely,
absolutely. I see that so much like so the and I'm gonna stop talking about myself in just a second. But the boys have a mom, because their stepmom who has a very different past experience than I do. And we all have different thoughts, including my husband on their education, right? And then we all have to look at ourselves as adults and say, and ask each other because it's not an easy decision. Where is the best fit for them educationally? Where's the best fit for them? When they
come home? Like how much time and energy should be spent on homework? How much time and energy should be spent on interests, all of these things? And then you look back, and you think about it, right? And how much of that, like you said, is influenced based on how you were brought up and your experiences as a child? Yeah.
I mean, you can never eliminate that. But awareness is key. Absolutely. Like reflect on it. Yeah, absolutely. So
wrapping up, if someone thinks that they might be twice exceptional student, parent, or they are, and they're going through school, or work, and personal life, what would be your number one tip for them in just getting to that next level in their life, your number one success tip for them.
¶ Emily's number one success tip for twice-exceptional individuals.
Recognize that whatever your strengths might be, you can use them to your advantage to leverage those areas of difficulty. And finding a way to be aware of those and to accept them is going to be really key. You don't want to get rid of the difficulties, because that's probably not realistic. You want to figure out how you can work with or through them, and having a lot of self compassion along that process.
I love it. Emily, this was a really intelligent and insightful conversation. And I know that a lot of people are going to be impacted by this, whether they're twice exceptional autistic have ADHD or not. And if they want to reach out to you, where would be the best way for them to contact you?
Yeah, I mean, first of all, they can always listen to the podcast if they just want to hear more. And if they are interested, really in getting in touch, the best way would be at our website, which is neurodiversity. podcast.com. And we have a contact page there, or I'm on all the social media platforms. And so if you search neurodiversity podcast, you'll find the podcast or you can search Emily Carter Morrison find my personal pages.
Wonderful. Well, thank you for being on successful with ADHD. It was a pleasure talking again, and I'm glad that we were able to connect on a different level.
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey. And if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching was broke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke and remember, it's Brooke with any Thanks again for listening. See you next time.