¶ Intro / Opening
I do have extensive childhood trauma, which means that when you've been exposed to things that children shouldn't be exposed to your brain is going to go to some pretty dark and messed up places. I don't indulge the thoughts that kind of flit across my brain. But I do. Oh, that was interesting that a part of me just thought
that right now. Wow. And the thing is, if you ask most people, and I've said this in front of like, hundreds of very professional buttoned up looking people, like, Hey, anybody had really messed up thoughts that if there was a microphone to your brain, that you'd be mortified if we could all hear what you were thinking. And the answer is, yes, that's just
being human. I'll say to that part of me, like, hey, the part of me that just had that really messed up thought, like, do you need me for something like, Is there something I need to be paying attention to? Or are you just saying hi, and more often than not by just attending to that voice and paying attention to it, it goes away, but occasionally it's like, no, we were triggered. And now we're having thoughts and now we need help. And then that's why I have a therapist.
Welcome to successful with ADHD. I'm Brooke Shipman. Let's get started. Welcome back to successful with ADHD. Today, I have the Britt Frank, the author of science of stuck, and she is a licensed neuro psychotherapist, and author. As I mentioned, she received her BA from Duke University and her Master's from the University of Kansas, where she currently resides. And V comes an award winning instructor later on, and you're recovering hot mess of a human. I love it.
Thanks for having me on. That was great intro. Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you. You're far too kinds. So why do you call yourself a recovering hot mess of a human please?
It's so funny to me that you know, all my shiny resume things like no one cares about. I've had clients come in,
¶ Britt explains why she calls herself a "recovering hot mess of a human".
they're like, I heard you say fuck on a podcast. And that's why I'm coming to see you. So I have my shiny resume. And then my sordid history, and I was a drug addict and a relational dysfunctional addict. And just a real hot mess of a human, I would have been diagnosed with what we now know is a neurodivergent thing, but would have been known as borderline personality disorder. You know, I hit all the things on the list. I was textbook didn't know
that was trauma. So yeah, recovering hot mess of a human with clinical training is pretty accurate.
Yeah. And we're always a recovering something, right?
It's so true.
That recovery never goes away. So I was given your book from Penguin publishers, I was happy that it was given to me because it's been amazing and even more amazing, which is hard to compare. Is you the author. So I would love to know, first of all, like, how did you get started in writing this book? What was your motivation? Yeah,
so I've always been a writer. And I think everyone has a book in them. And I've always known at some point, I want to write a book, not a memoir, I had no desire to write a memoir of my ridiculous backstory. This book came about because I started posting on social media, just little snippets, and just my random brains, you know, little brain,
children brain farts. And after a while, I looked at like my hundreds of posts, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is like, a show and tell of all of the things I've collected over my, you know, 15 years of trying to figure out how to human and it's really good stuff. And so the science of stuff came because someone asked me who's like not in the Recovery Wellness world, what do you do? And I was explaining and she's like, just give it to me straight. I'm like, I help people the science
of stuff. She's like, that's a book title. Like that is a book title. And then I didn't want to write a here's my opinion on how you should live because No, I wanted to write a here all the books I've read here, all the teachers that I think are good, so you don't have to dive through 25 books. It's like, here's just the bottom line nuggets from lots of different I've snuck my own theories in the middle. But generally speaking, it's me explaining really academic stuff in normal human language.
I love that because as a neurodivergent, myself with ADHD and anxiety, it is so hard to make this decision when you're not an expert. And you know, to spend all that time and try all of these different tools. It is debilitating when you don't have the right tools. You haven't found the right book, you haven't found the right social media. So you are an expert. And you've taken 25 Amazing, highly qualified experts and put it in a book so people can choose from the top of the top. Yeah,
and I don't know if it's 25 Exactly, but it's like, it's in the suggested reading list. There's at least 25 And they're the little tiny exercises that you can do very quickly. So very quickly. You're gonna be Like, no, that's not
¶ Using the metaphor of chess moves to tackle problems from different angles.
for me or, you know, this is stupid or yay, that's interesting or whatever. And so I've sort of breadcrumbs that out if you like that this is the trail that you can follow to go to that. And I wish that existed for me really, I wrote the book that I needed when I started because I had, I was sitting on the floor in the bookstore with my pile of everything on the Self Help section. And I was overwhelmed. And I didn't know where to start. This is before I
became a therapist. And I'm like, I wish someone would just hand me like a Cliff's Notes guide to all the books. So you know, and again, I'm not saying that I've read all of them. This is what worked for me. It's certainly not universal. But I wish I had this book when I started. So I'm hoping it will be useful for other people. Oh,
it has it has. So you also talk about like chess moves in here. Can you kind of get into that a little bit. I thought that was really clever. Yeah,
I really like deep, mystifying and D academic in this. Like, it doesn't need to be so technical and so complex. That's why I have cartoons to explain things in the book. It's like Can someone please just explain this, to me, a chessboard is a great way to and I don't play chess, and you don't have to play chess. But if you think of a chessboard, there are strategies. And each piece has different moves that it can
make. And if we think of our lives, like a chessboard, you may want to move your Pete like, let's say that you've got like, you're really stuck. When it comes to relationships and dating, you really want to move you're dating chess piece, but it's stuck in the corner. So you can't do it. So like, let's move other pieces. So in moving other things that frees up your board to get to the things you want, rather than just what's wrong with me. Why can I it's like, well, you can't right now today
in that area. But look at all these other moves that are available, we get so often, we get so fixated on what's not going well, what we can't do what we don't have. And there's no I mean, that's legit,
and negativity bias, right?
I mean, it's true. It's not like I'm like Pollyanna, like, just think positive, and everything will go crazy, fine. No, but the fact is, there are moves available. And if we don't know that, then we're gonna stay in the corner and not know if there's room over there to make some moves. And in doing that, you're going to move everything and perhaps be able to move the thing you want to move.
I love that. So I also, you know, talk and evaluate all the different areas of someone's life, right? And you're right, like, when you have too much chaos going on, it's really hard to tackle everything. So do what's easiest, first, build that momentum, then you feel more confident. And then you can get to it. And also, sometimes because you're doing other things, the thing over here, just magically like goes up to so I love how you said like move
your chess pieces. And it all kind of like becomes this puzzle that you can put together.
Yes. Which is for me a better metaphor than the balance. Like I know that the wheel is something that they use in therapy and in coaching with like, here's your we'll have all your life areas that we need to have an equal balance of home and family. And that's like No, for who? No, no, no,
no, I actually put it into cups instead of a wheel. Because every single one is separate. That shouldn't be the same, right? And you're never going to be equal and balanced in all areas. Because whatever you focus on is what grows, right? So how could you be a 10 in all areas of your life, especially if you're a high achiever? You're never a 10. Right?
Right. Or if you are, you're gonna burn out really quickly, and it's not gonna be sustainable. But I love cups. I love cups. I love chess. I love anything that's not balanced is good for me. Yes, that's exactly,
exactly. So you are a recovering hot mess. You were an addict? What was that like for you? Going from addiction to recovery.
So my path was confusing, because I tried the extreme versions of lots of things. I tried hardcore, 12 Step. And I tried hardcore, like spirituality to the point where I joined a fundamentalist cult. I'm like, maybe that'll work. And I tried hardcore, fasting and hardcore exercise. And it's like, the extreme versions of lots of things can help you not be addicted to whatever you're addicted to. But then you create
a whole new set of problems. So what I found is that addiction is not a problem of character or willpower, or some sort of mental flaw. Addiction is a problem of pain. And if you don't know that, then you're just going to try to behavior manage your way through it, and not or numb it right? And that's not living. That's not like that's important. Like I'd rather someone be living on numb than actively addicted to heroin. But that's it's not enough for me. We were on this
planet for such a short time. I don't want to just be sober. Like that's not life. To me. It's not about abstinence from a chemical it's about what do you add it like the addiction world often focuses on don't do that. restrict this less of this? How many days have you not done that? thing, versus what are you
expanding into? Like, let's just render this addiction irrelevant by building your life to a point where your cup is so full, that it's not like I don't wish that cocaine wasn't bad for you. Like, I wish the crystal meth wasn't a horrible evil drug because it's fun before it's not. But it's not good. So let's fill it. It's not like I don't ever think about it. But it's not hard for me to not do drugs anymore. It's not I have a life I don't need to escape from fortunate. So
¶ Overcoming addiction through finding a sense of purpose in life.
for you, it wasn't like an all or nothing type of thing. You did the 12 step and it didn't work for you. So you said okay, what's my bigger purpose kind of thing? And like, How can I realize my expectations in life,
kind of the, the problem is the 12 steps works. It works beautifully if your goal is abstinence, like if you want to not do a thing, 12 Steps awesome. And it's free. So for access problems and privilege problems, 12 steps is available. But abstinence from chemicals is not the end of the story. There's more available to us. And I didn't want to identify as an addict. Like yes, I have parts of me that use addiction
to cope. But I don't like this all encompassing identification of I Am, addict like I don't I think I am an addict. I think I have parts of me that use that to cope. And that line of thinking wasn't welcomed in my particular 12 Step community. So that was no longer a place for me to work life out. So I left so
let me ask you a question then do you partake in drinking or you know anything else that a 12 step program would otherwise say? Be abstinent,
I don't like THC, because it makes me really paranoid and anxious and it feels horrible to my system. It's just not a helpful thing for me. I don't do hard drugs. I'll have a drink here and there, but I get sick to my stomach when I drink too much. So it's I'm not fully abstinent, but there's no like, for me if I have a glass of wine, I am drunk to the drunk drunk and it takes me like a week to
recover. Right? Not worth it all the time. No,
like I did better with hard drugs and alcohol in terms of being able to bounce back. But I'm just not. I don't mind having a drink here and there. But I'm not a big drinker.
Yeah. On one of the other podcasts. I haven't released it yet. But I talked about cults, actually, in a couple of them. It. It's not out there enough that neuro divergence neurodivergent people are more susceptible to being in a cult. And I literally interviewed two people recently who were in cults as well. So I don't know if you knew about that connection. But it's so fascinating, because very often cults can prey on the neurodivergent community.
That's FAS, I did not know that that was a link. But having been in one and identifying as neurodivergent, it makes sense to me. My head was such a chaotic, just scary place to live. I had no idea why life didn't work for me the way like why do I think in this way, and nobody else seems to struggle with the things I'm thinking about call life is if you read this, were this, eat this, drink this do this, then you're good. And we will love
you and we will accept you. And it's a just add water and stir all access pass to belonging. Now, it's not real belonging, it's a counterfeit. But when you're starving, the counterfeit feels really damn good. And so you know, the cold experience for me would not recommend it. But it was a nice respite from drugs. And for a time, it offered me some relief. And then I started thinking for myself, and that's not really allowed. So that didn't work long term.
Just like with the not all 12 Step groups, not all 12 Step groups don't DM me with not all I know, the ones I was in, like, you're not a lot like oh my god, I drink occasionally that doesn't fly in a 12 step community.
It's interesting that you say that because I was in a coaching program that literally changed my life. I'll be honest. However, with that being said, it was like a cult, if you did not sell the program and become their marketer. You were wrong. And you had to you received pressure all the time to sell to sell to sell to bring more people in. No, I don't want to mention this by name, because there's a lot of people who are in it, and I would still
recommend it. But for people who are going through this self help journey, you got to think about like how you're utilizing people who might not have the strength that they would after going through it. So like, you know, be careful with people's minds.
And those people are unlikely to so on our side, I would say be careful with your own. Now I if you had told me like 15 years ago, you can trust your intuition. I'd be like fu No, I cannot and that would have been accurate. But at the end of the day, I don't care who the expert is, whether it's you or me or even William meaning generally skillful, non culty people. I don't know what it's like, I'm not the expert on the person in front of me. I'll give you all the best tools in the
world. But I think real wellness and real healing is about learning to hear what you think taking in all of the resources and going, Yeah, nope, that doesn't work for me. I'm like, okay, like, that's great. Take it, use it, modify it, toss it upcycle, do whatever you need to do to make it work. Anything that makes you less of an asshole and more of yourself is good.
Yeah, yeah. I've noticed in my work that many people who deal with trauma, especially like deep rooted trauma, have a difficult time, feeling like they're making progress, especially in coaching, even though they are it's that like, you just said, this tool is not working for you toss it, let's try something else. But like that flexibility, that gray area is really hard for Neuro divergence, because we, we take a failure of something that working is us
networking, right? So I would love to hear your strategies for people who you're working with kind of explaining it to them, like, Hey, this is just part of the normal journey. It
helps with whether you identify as neurodivergent, or ADHD or a trauma survivor or whatever. The human brain however yours is wired specifically, is not it was very helpful to learn our brains are not wired for success. Our brains are not wired for happiness. Our brains are wired for survival, like they are optimized to keep us alive at any cost. And they're trained to recognize patterns. And so that's what brains do. That's
how your brain brains. And so when I have people that are minimizing or throwing off their tiny little gains, it helps to explain like think of feeding an infant, you're not going to shove a T bone down an infant's face and expected to go well, like you have to give them little mushy carrots. But in doing that, they start to grow. And as they grow, their capacity expands and their tolerance for more solid food expands. And that's how human brains brain that the last day I ever smoked
crystal meth. I walked out of where I was got to a safe place. I hadn't eaten in days, I was seeing things It was awful. And my sponsor, I was still in control steps at the time. She's like, Britt, what was the last time you ever ate food? Oh, my Oh, no, I sat there. And she sat there and talked to me through eating a yogurt one spoonful at a time. That is not a like Instagrammable let me make a real to show you my progress kind of moment. But that yogurt
¶ Making micro-changes to create macro results.
was the thing that allowed my brain to hang on until I made the next micro I call them micro yeses. And you don't have to, all I'm doing is eating a yogurt. What the hell is wrong with me? I'm never gonna get anywhere. It's like, no, yay, me, I did a thing. Now I've programmed my brain to do another thing. And each of those micro yeses gives you a micro dose of dopamine, which over time allows you to do the bigger
thing. So when my clients know your brain brains in small bites, then it's a lot easier to see the progress
exactly. You have to make these micro changes to make the macro changes in the end. And you have to be able to somehow understand those tangible wins along the way or, you know, get it reinforced to you. So I love that. And I love the whole like baby analogy too. Because we treat I have a 19 month old and I treat her so well. Like I treat her better than myself. Right? And she has the best life I think she sleeps, she eats, she goes to the bathroom, she is happy,
right? But we forget about those basic hierarchy of needs when we become adults. We have to relearn and really be intentional about treating ourselves like a baby before we become an adult.
And what you're talking about which I love because it's such it's something I'm so passionate about is self parenting. So your daughter is very fortunate that she has you lots of little babies myself included I don't know your
¶ Self parenting when you aren't treating yourself well.
history did not have caring and available and presents caregivers. And so once we adults, it's like wait, this sucks. I got a bum deal like no one did this for like I don't want to parent myself I want I want someone to do it for me. I want someone to fix me Save me rescue me show me what to do. Give me the three steps and self parenting and what you said we treat people I don't have kids but like people generally treat their children and their friends better than they're, they treat
themselves. Right. But if you think of it as you're parenting all the voices in your head, just like you were coaching for the men I work with they like the coach analogy, like all the voices in your head are your team and you're the coach and you can't treat them and you can't fire them and the goal here is to help coach them into a place where they're working at their best and work everyone's working like my life works better when all the voices in my head get along.
Huh? Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that my my voice works better when In all, sorry, my brain works better when all the voices in my head get along. Yeah, very cool. Very cool. And yeah, you don't want to suppress what's going on, because it's going to show back up even stronger. So you have to acknowledge that they're there. And some
of them have really jacked up things to say, like I do have extensive childhood trauma, which means that like, when you've been exposed to things that children shouldn't be exposed to your brain is going to go to some pretty dark and messed up places. So I didn't and the mental health world was like, generally, they would be called intrusive thoughts, you'd be trained to ignore them, you'd be trained to run away from them and to try to
suppress them. And what you just said, like, I don't indulge the thoughts that kind of flit across my brain. But I do. Oh, that was interesting that a part of me just thought that right
now. Wow, like, and the thing is, if you ask most people, and I've said this in front of like, hundreds of very professional buttoned up looking people, like pay anybody have really messed up thoughts that if there was a microphone to your brain, that you'd be mortified if we could all hear what you were thinking? And the answer is yes. Because that's how
they'll bring drama, or is that OCD? That's just
being human now trauma will? Like, I don't think people who haven't had my trauma would necessarily have the specific thoughts that kind of darkened my consciousness. But the human brain is complex, and our psyches are infinitely complex, and having weird, really wacky thoughts dark, dark, like murder. I'm not saying all behaviors are okay.
Yeah, it doesn't mean that you are going to act on it. Yeah.
So it's, it's really nice when you can learn whatever to whatever degree, your dark thoughts come on, if you don't have to be afraid of it, then you don't have to run. And I do have OCD. And so I get I get stuck on, it's more than Oh, pure Oh, and I get stuck on these loops. And that's because there are parts of me that are afraid of what I'm feeling or
what I'm thinking. And if I can train myself to tolerate my feelings, and my thoughts, all of them life is I don't get stuck as often or for as long.
Yeah, and know that you have the data that you haven't acted on it, and you won't act on it. Right, exactly. Yeah. It's so refreshing to talk to someone who's so real about what's going on inside the brain. Because I have spoken to so many people, including people close to me who have dark thoughts and have OCD, and no knowing they would never, ever do anything with those thoughts, but they have them. And if they can't talk about it, or they can't acknowledge that it's okay
to just let it pass. It makes them really stressed and depressed. Which
makes sense. I didn't know how the brain works when I was going through my mess. And every person I've ever seen as a client, whether they have trauma or not, has these really messed up thoughts. And it's like, their options for dealing like normally, like on a given day. If I noticed one, I'm just like, Oh, hey, they're part of me. I'm really glad you're here. Thanks. And then it
passes. But sometimes I'll ask like, and again, none of us are trained that you can actually set issr Yeah, yeah, you can talk to the voices in your head. We're all thinking all day. And it's like, we're just talking about thinking, Yeah, I'll say to that part of me, like, hey, the part of me that just had that really most of thought, like, do you do need me for something like, Is there something I need to be paying
attention to? Or are you just saying hi, and more often than not by just attending to that voice and paying attention to it, it goes away. But occasionally, it's like, no, we were triggered. And now we're having thoughts and now we need help. And then that's why I have a therapist,
¶ How Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy helped Britt process her intrusive thoughts.
you know, so funny, while you're talking the protector and me because I'm doing internal family system and EMDR is like all of a sudden, starting to choke me, right? Because my protector makes my throat feel weird, right? So it's a crazy how like a thing can trigger a physiological response. And I know that Richard Schwartz, who is ifs he commented and endorsed your book. So talk to me a little bit about your can I know how cool
so cool. Can't talk to me about your connection with internal family systems.
So I like died the day that I got the note that Richard I just like reached out to him just cold on lie. And I found you know, his contact info. Oh, yeah. Hi. Oh, yeah, your model saved my life. When I was in the cults and we would be doing we were supposed to be doing these marathon 24 hour long prayer sessions. I had started to become disillusioned. And I found I just found my way to the original ifs book that he wrote. And so I would bring that book into the marathon prayer
sessions. And I read it and it absolutely rocked my world. And that was the book and the model. Like I use a lot of different models of therapy. But ifs is the one that kind of clicked all of the pieces into place for me. And so before I was even a therapist for I was even trained in ifs that model sort of helped me figure out how to get from point A to point B. And then later on, I became I'm certify, you know, I took the classes and I took the other workshops, and
I did the three year training. I just reached out to him and I was like, oh my god, I love your work. And here's my little manuscripts and you know, I would be so honored if I could share this. And he was so generous and so kind in being willing and yeah, I think I like lost my I think a happy dance for like 48 hours when I got that.
That's so cool. That's so cool. So here you are. Fast forward, you are psychotherapy neuro psychotherapist, who is recovering and helping people like your past self. So what would you say to your past self Britt, when you were high on crystal meth? Yeah, what's
nice about ifs is you get to I do talk to my past self. And I do get them out of the scenes that they're stuck in. And I bring them all here. That's what ifs is so beautiful. It's like the past is not actually in the past, the past is in our cells, organs, tissues, it's in our mind, it's in our behavior, it's in our choices. So I have talked to that version of myself. And I've told her, I hope it makes sense that you're here. Like, let's figure this out, let's get you
out of there. It's not about going back and pretending that things didn't happen. It's about going back and letting those parts of us know that they don't have to stay on that loop. Like the brain is weird with like times that imaginary thing that we made up to make sense of life. But like anyone who has ever touched a hot stove or wanted to sleep in, when you want to snooze, like time goes by really fast, when you're touching a hot stove, it's like the pain lasts forever. So time
is relative. So you can go back and talk to those parts of yourself and tell them that it wasn't their fault. Or that even if they made bad choices, that you're not going to abandon them. And like there are consequences to choices and behaviors. But it's helpful to know that you don't ever have to abandon your parts.
I love that. So, for someone who is in that position right now, and is going through really traumatic times, what would be a word of advice for them
get to safety, none of the therapy shit that I do is useful. And until like I was in a really several really violent relationship situation. And it's like all the good therapy in the world is not going to help when I go and walk through that door. And life is very, very unsafe. So like the first door, you talked about the hierarchy of needs. First order of business, don't worry about therapy. Don't worry about meditation, don't worry about affirmations or
journaling. Like we need to figure out what are your choices for safety, safety has to come before anything else. Otherwise, it's not safe. It's like you wouldn't do surgery in you wouldn't ideally do surgery in a situation where it was chaos. Right? This is the same thing with soul surgery. Like we don't need to do inner work when your outer environment is profoundly unsafe.
¶ Britt's advice to focus on safety first when going through trauma.
Yeah, yeah, you need to really focus on the here and now and what you're not attending to. So attend to that be safe. I love that so much. So for those people who are looking for guidance, or looking to have a new best friend who is in this field, too, has walked their shoes and can help them now. Where can they find you?
Oh, I was gonna say that's not me. I don't know what it's like to be you. But yeah, love it. I love that. I'll be your online bestie I've come find me on Instagram. It's social media, like yes, it's evil, horrible. It makes us all compare. But social media is actually an incredible resource. And I wish I had had it. Some of my favorite people are people that I have met through Instagram. So say hello, I don't have a team. I do it all myself. That's how I met you. So it's just average Frank.
Yes, I love it. Thank you for making a difference on the neurodivergent community. And thank you for being raw and real.
I'll have vulnerability hangover later. But thank you for having me.
Thank you for being here. Thanks for listening to this episode of successful with ADHD. I hope it helps you on your journey. And if you need any additional support for you or a loved one with ADHD, feel free to reach out to us at coaching with brooke.com and all social media platforms at coaching with Brooke and remember, it's Brooke with Annie. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.