Episode 73: Moles (Star Trek: Section 31)

Hello, and welcome back to Subspace Radio. It's me, Rob,

and me, Kevin,

and we are back to talk about Star Trek. We are here to talk about Section 31, and then that'll springboard us off into a topic that we are focusing on.

Yes. Moles. We've chosen moles.

We have focused on moles. I'll be focusing on Moley from Wind in the Willows, who's one of my favorite characters. Which mole will you be focusing on, Kevin?

Well, we'll just have to wait and see. Won't we?

Ha ha! Oh no, I spoiled too soon.

Uh, yeah, Section 31. This is the last time we'll be doing this for a little while because, uh, the, the premiere date of the next new Star Trek, uh, Strange New Worlds season three is not yet announced as we record this. So who knows?

Who knows? And especially all that is going on in the larger scheme of things when it comes to Paramount and, uh, everything like that. Who knows what the future holds? We have, uh, been a you know, there's been a glut of Star Trek within the modern era within the last couple of years. Everything is, you know, on tenterhooks at the moment about what the future holds.

Yeah. Hopefully before the end of the year, I think it's probably safe to assume that we'll get a season of Strange New Worlds at some point this year, but,

do know that they have been greenlit for a fourth

season.

Yeah.

And, uh, Starfleet Academy is, has wrapped and so is in post production, so that'll come along at some point, but possibly not until next year. Uh, I, I feel like we're heading into a period of like Doctor Who sort of release schedule where, you know, you're lucky if you get something once a year. It won't always happen.

Yes, and as always as we've talked about many times with, uh, with the history of Star Trek, um, it's never as long or as, uh, full of episodes as, uh, we used to in the good old days.

But, uh, I feel like we are, uh, beating around the bush because, uh, we reluctant to get into the primary topic of this show, which is Star Trek: Section 31.

Do we have to talk about it? Can't we just catch up? You know, tell us what's been going on. What's been going on with you?

I have some nice things to say about it. I mean, when we last spoke, Rob, we talked about how low our expectations were.

Very much so.

Um, and I'm glad I went in with low expectations because I think I was primed to enjoy what is there to be enjoyed.

I'm glad you found something to enjoy within that.

Well, why don't you tell us what you thought, Rob?

Okay, well, as we've talked about last time, uh, in sort of like, passing. Um, the idea of doing a Section 31 TV show has been around for, on and off, for about a decade or so really. I mean the, when Section 31 was first introduced, and I think it was introduced in sort of like the 90s era,

Deep Space Nine was the first, yeah, it was invented for Deep Space Nine.

it was invented for Deep

And then it was backported into Discovery.

Yes. Um, so it's been around, it's been around for a while and it's always been the thought of, Ooh, let's look at the darker side of Star Trek with Section 31. And then with Discovery, incorporating it into their back history, um, as if there's any other kind of

Mmm.

feeding that into the story of, uh, Emperor Giorgio, with, uh, her storyline. It's been, they use the word tantalizing to bring this to life, but then everything has shifted. Uh, Michelle Yeoh went from being obscure but well respected actor, um, to then being Oscar nominated and then Oscar winner. So, this new life with Star Trek then got shifted around because of this commitment and, um, uh, interest in her from her Oscar win.

There's a sense that, yeah, they missed their moment. And I, uh, I mean, it seems we can blame COVID for that. Like this was intended to be a COVID era production. And when shut down, it shut down with it and they had trouble bringing it back. Um, I guess maybe we can thank all of that for the appearance of Jamie Lee Curtis in this movie, if else. Um, but yeah, it, it, it was definitely something they were planning to do and they knew they had promised it to us.

that sounds very, that is very Michael Burnham, I think Michael Burnham was going through an emotional trauma at time, yeah.

but

it wasn't, that's about me, I'm the lead of this show.

It feels like if not for those dangling promises, Emperor Georgiou could have stepped through that portal, and because schedules never quite lined up, we would have never gotten more of Emperor Georgiou in Star Trek canon. But they, they kind of promised us something they had to deliver and, or at least felt obligated to. And so we got something.

Look, yeah, so, the positive we can look at it, this is the little show that could, or the idea that just would not die. Despite COVID, despite Michelle Yeoh's success, this Section 31 promised series then evolved into a promised TV movie, which was then promised into just an online streaming movie. But no matter what has happened, it has come out. So the mere fact that it is existing is something positive. However, a testament of persistence. However, you can see the compromise

Yeah, there's lot of seams here. It's like a stitched together Frankenstein's monster.

It does definitely feel like they've taken elements of the first two or three episodes, and the first, and the, and the final 20 minutes or so of the final episode script or arc. It's even, so much so they don't even hide it, that it's broken up into three clear literally, yeah, they literally

at Baram. We've got The Godsend and we've got The Passageway. And then there's the little epilogue that promises more. And you, you remember what I said, Rob, that if this, if this ends with, and maybe there's more, if you renew us, I was going to say, no, I don't want it?

And be careful what you wish

Hmm.

So yeah, you can just see the comp. Compromise is the big word here and it's such, I'm not going to say a shame because I'm not really.

too to what might've been there?

I mean, I'm Section 31 has always been better in the shadows. Um, it's kind of if we want to bring another, you know, you brought up Doctor Who, I'll bring up Star Wars yet again. You know, everyone's going, yeah let's bring Boba Fett back. Yeah, let's do Boba Fett. Let's give Boba Fett a TV show and be careful what you wish for.

The mystery is the product.

Exactly. And Section 31 is espionage and it is like, you know, how, what, what darkness is done to keep the light of the Federation.

Let me chime in with my take on that, because I think there is, I do want to provide a little bit of contrast to that point, because I agree that Section 31, as portrayed in Deep Space Nine, and more or less successfully in Discovery, I agree that that version of Section 31, the, the Starfleet department gone rogue that doesn't officially exist and, um, and powerful people protect it, um, is the less, the less we know about it, the, the better it is.

Um, I see that because I was watching it going, this doesn't, they don't, they're not Section 31. just.

This a different time. And I feel like maybe this is early Section 31, before it all went wrong. This is, this is the IMF in Starfleet. This is the misfits who, who, uh, to pay their, uh, their penance to society, take on the missions that no one else will do.

It's a little bit, it's a little bit, uh, Suicide Squad, a little bit, um, uh, uh, Thunderbolts, if you wanna do another reference, and a little element of Dirty Dozen.

And you could say that, uh, uh, you know, something that unserious as an idea probably doesn't stand up to scrutiny in the Star Trek universe, but the tone helps it here, like the, the, uh, quippy comedy sort of light touch tone that they use to the storytelling here and the characters helps us accept that, that unserious idea could actually to, uh, like exist in this world.

The big worry for me was they pushed hard going, oh, this is unlike any Star Trek you've seen before. And for me, the reason why I didn't like it is because I didn't think it was done well,

Right. it was bad on its own terms is

bad on its own terms and its terms were it was in the Star Trek universe. I sense this. I wasn't there going, they're trying too hard not to be Star Trek.

Yeah, you saw

I saw a connection to within that broad, I think it's mostly big, you know, a big part of that is watching Prodigy and watching Lower Decks especially

It's a big tent. There's

Yeah, it has evolved so much and there are fans out there who are the purists only see Star Trek as original series and 90s Star Trek and anything else after uh, Nemesis, no matter how much we hate Nemesis, it's still a part of that original canon, and anything after that is a bastard eyed, mutated form.

Yeah. I, I think I take your point. I mean, I don't want to spend too much time talking about what this wasn't and what it wasn't trying to be. But I think what I got a glimpse of here that could be good is I personally have less of a taste for that Guardians of the Galaxy quippiness. I think that, that's maybe good as a popcorn flick, but if you were really trying to build an ongoing story here, to me, I would have leaned more towards the Mission Impossible.

I felt, yeah, because all that quippiness and that humour stuff would've, I assume, uh, felt more at ease and more settled over that eight or nine episode arc. It felt very condensed, and so therefore everything was heightened, and it seemed a bit it came across as forced, and so therefore it's harder to get that connection because it was

I'll pull in another movie reference and I'll say The Fifth Element. It was like so, like at points so, stylized and forced that you almost had to buy into that stylized forced ness, uh, to enjoy it. And I think for whatever reason, uh, I mean, I guess production value, if nothing else, The Fifth Element succeeds better at that than

Yeah, yeah, um, a lot of people got onto the Fifth Element bandwagon. I never did. Um, I could see what they were trying to do, having, you know, that almost ruthless, um, uh, danger of, yeah, any character could die any moment that, you know, they, bring that risk back, as opposed to just making them red shirts, but because everything was condensed to a telemovie, those who we did lose along The way, we didn't really have that much of a connection with.

Yeah. I, uh, yeah, we lose Mel very early on

very

And, uh, as soon as she, as soon as she evaporated in pink, uh, dust, I went, Oh no, she was like the most interesting one.

Ha ha ha ha! ha!

We had a Deltan back and maybe this is our opportunity to go through this entire motley crew, but let's start with Mel. Um, great to see a Deltan back since, uh, since Ilia in the Motion Picture, we have not seen a Deltan. And, um, yeah, I love the idea of those, uh, sexy time powers being a superpower for spy work.

Very much so. Yeah. That was, that was, that was some nice stuff and, you know, that spy work was kind of connected into that bar as well. Because, you know, James Bond always has to walk into a club or a, or, you know, a a, a lead VIP space, and to have all the cool misfits there doing their tricks, um, was very cool. And yeah, it was a case of, alright, this is cool, she's cool, oh, you know, well, that's a, yeah, had to kill the good character, the the, the interesting character.

Yes, another body on the floor is, uh, Zef the Mechanoid, um, who I enjoyed. This was the actor who, uh, was quoted in the press as saying, I hope they give us a chance even though this isn't the kind of Star Trek everyone wants. Um, and, uh, he seemed very charming and I, I liked the, the, the dumb meathead character. It was, it was really good.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

We just got very little of him before he got taken over by a tiny, uh, pilot and self destructed.

Yeah. Now, let's talk, let's talk about those, shall we? Have they appeared before?

Are you talking about the mechanoids or the tiny

The tiny tinies.

Nanokin. No. Also a first appearance in Star canon. Yes. Fuzz, the nanokin. Very annoying.

And, and Fuzz's wife, at the

Yes, Fuzz's wife at the end. And look, I have to pay the actor, the fact that it was his wife. I thought, ooh. You're doing some acting there and it's actually working. I don't like you anymore though. I, I mean ultimately he was one of the villains and so probably not there to be liked but yeah, it was something grating. There's, I think, a lot of ink been spilled about the Irish accent and

Oh my,

was appropriate.

It was, look, it was a choice, um, a choice was made, and Yeah, that was one of those elements that maybe a bit more, if they had more time to develop it, but it was so crammed in and forced. It came across, um, harsher for our, for our gentle ears and eyes. Um, yeah, that was one part that didn't really work.

That whole character was facing an uphill battle as soon as it was like, it's a Vulcan. It's a laughing Vulcan. No wait, it's not a Vulcan. Like, I felt like there was an immediate cancel in the promise of that character. Uh, yeah, and if it's Star Trek and you put a Vulcan on screen, we are going to be disappointed if we don't get a Vulcan. And we did not get a Vulcan here.

No. No, we didn't. And especially if there's such a tantalizing thing of it's a laughing, oddly behaving Vulcan. Ooh, I wanna see where that comes from. Oh, it's just, you know, it's being controlled by a mini creature inside.

I read some interview where the actor was saying he was given a whole like plot arc that was going to take place over the entire first season of the show. You were going to meet his family. We were going to visit his planet. There was going to be a whole Nanokin arc. Uh, and in the end, none of that happened here, um, except for little hints of, you know, small things can survive explosions and things like that. A lot of these lines apparently were, like, bigger things in the original

Of course.

So, uh, yeah, it's, it is, I feel like this character is one of those things that was boiled down to nothing worthwhile.

Yes. Yeah, again, there was the the compromise, uh, yeah, he was one of the Um, sacrifices of that compromise.

We had Quasi the Cameloid, another movie, uh, alien coming back from Star Trek VI this time.

Played by the great and gorgeous and incredible Iman. And Sam Richardson, who's, um, uh, a a, a wonderful comedic actor. He's done a lot of great stuff on Veep and other, uh, such shows.

A noted Star Trek fan. Uh, he has been saying for quite a while that he loves Star Trek, and so it must have been his dream come true to get cast in a series and then sadly taken away. But this character I am here for. He is great fun. You might criticize of, he always plays the same character, but it is such a delight every time that, uh, I enjoyed it in this context. So, Yeah,

He, he's got a, he's got a natural charm. He's a wonderful performer. And I haven't seen, like, he's got that, awkwardness type of style of

And even in the strangest, like, tensest moments, he has still got that awkward charm going on. Like, right at the climax of this, when the bomb's about to go off, Rachel Garrett turns to him and says, You better beam them back. And he goes, Mm. Mm hmm. Mm. Mm. And, you know, it takes him second to realize what's being said to him. And it's just, that stuff could not possibly have been on the page. That is full Sam Richardson, I

Yeah. And especially, like, the great stuff with, um, uh, which was great, I'll say it unironically. The cute little play at the end where he's, you know, morphed into the other character and flirting with, uh, Giorgiou and then, you know, she takes the bait and flirts back and then it all falls out and awkwardness, uh, ensues in hilarious state.

It was good. Uh, and then sadly, that last pullout where he's making a, I thought a funny joke of like, just making fun of the planet that they're being sent to Turkana IV. And he says, I heard it was your mama IV, but if you, these things are in 4k, Rob, and you can see the actor's mouth is not moving as we are hearing those

ha ha ha

pulling out of the window and he's just sitting there, but they have dubbed lines over top, uh, for a funny outro. And, uh, I was like, wow, yeah, they re this really fell apart at the end.

Yeah.

And then the whole space station warps out for no reason.

No reason. no reason. But look, but that's how you end a Star Trek, right? Everything goes to

everything goes to warp. Yeah. Maybe we were going to warp. And when you go to warp. all the things that say still appear to warp away from you? That's all I can think.

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. I, I, I love you to bits, especially because you try, and justify

I try, Rob.

You try so hard

Let's keep going. Rachel Garrett, what did you think?

Because I don't know much about Ra— I know she

Oh, Rob, you gotta go watch Yesterday's Enterprise.

Yesterday's Enterprise. We have spoken about it before, and so this is a very important character within, particular

There's just a few episodes of Next Gen that people often cite as their favorite one of the entire series. There's obviously All Good Things at the end. the Inner Light is a popular one. Darmok is right up there for me. Yesterday's Enterprise. Oh, Best of Both Worlds,

Best of Both Worlds, obviously. Measure of a Man.

Yeah, for sure. Um, and Yesterday's Enterprise right up there as top tier, S-tier

The Next Generation.

That has been mentioned so many times within this podcast, so yeah. I liked, I liked Garrett. I was, uh, really, I was really, uh, impressed with the actress, and, uh, what she got out of the role. I thought, and I was really interested to see where she would go, and like, surrounded by so much deceit, she's a, uh, Starfleet within that situa within the, the darkness of it was, was interesting to see how it plays out.

Yeah, I, I have, I have watched this movie three times now, Rob, and I still cannot say whether Rachel Garrett, I agree. She is like one of the bright points of this movie and I can't tell. Is it the words on the page or is it the performance of the actor? Because she is very charismatic and I can't tell if the charisma is coming from the the words or the performance.

It's the performance. Dead set, a hundred percent the performance. And the, uh, performer. Was it um, uh, Kacey Rohl,

Yeah.

Kacey Rohl. Canadian actress. Um, uh, yeah. What, what a stunning screen presence and what a great natural charm she brought that roles and did some incredible heavy lifting. That's what we, that's what we say is, uh, is, is you know, that's, that's the triple threat right there, picking up the script, making it work and then just sprinkling it with the magic.

Yeah, this movie would have been much less watchable without Rachel Garrett, like bringing the commitment. Like, I feel like when everything around her was not quite serious enough to take seriously, she was taking things seriously enough that you wanted to take the movie seriously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, unfortunately, canonically, Rachel Garrett's presence here is, as far as I can tell, the only reason for what I consider the biggest plot hole here. And I'm not usually one to worry about plot holes, but this plot hole is 70 years wide, and I'm going to talk about it in a moment.

Yes, she's aged very well.

It's not, uh, it's not Garrett's, uh, age that bothers me though. It is, uh, a different character, but we'll come back to that. Um, yeah, Rachel Garrett. Great. She, several, uh, like, uh, lines mention, conspicuously mentioning that she must stay alive to become a captain one day. And that's precisely because we know her as the captain of the Enterprise C in Yesterday's Enterprise.

Yes, that's one thing that has inspired me, I, I was there going, I have to, I know, I know there's some that I still haven't watched, uh, but, yeah, I do need to watch Yesterday's Enterprise. I've watched Inner Light, and I loved it, and so now I need to watch Yesterday's Enterprise.

And all that's left for our new, uh, cast of characters is the captain of this, uh, this motley crew, Alok Sahar. What'd you think of him?

Um, yeah, played by Omari Hardwick. He, again, he was another one who had a lovely charm about him and an earnestness and a seriousness about him, but, um, I didn't see much in the way of uh, much in the way that drew me to him. I was appealed to the actor, the actor was doing well, I'm there going, come on, you're doing your best, son, love it. Um,

gave him a big backstory in dialogue, but I agree. There wasn't a lot here in this actual story of substance. He was kind of a blank blank page.

Yeah. And he's, he's that sort of like point man

Yeah, he was playing straight man to all the weird people around him, I Yeah, including, um, Emperor Georgiou herself.

Especially Giorgiou, yeah, very much playing the, um, uh, Abbot to her Costello, if we're using,

But a compelling screen presence. I would, I would happily see more of this character I think, like. there was nothing to put me off here I guess in a blank slate straight man sort of performance I guess that's all you can hope for.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing to write home about, but, you know, it would have been interesting to see where that, if there would be any shift or change. And we're gonna keep on saying that all the way through this. Oh, if they had the whole, uh, 8 or, you know, 8 to 10 episodes. But would we keep on watching? That's another thing.

Well, you know I would. Uh,

Yeah,

the bar is low.

And then I'd have to watch it as well, because we'd have to review it, so.

I'm waiting for the day where I have to, uh, record solo and report our listeners I just couldn't get Rob to watch it this week.

Oh no, I'd be, I'd be on the Zoom call, I'd just be, I'd just be, I'd just be listening you. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be like reading a book while you're doing it. Um, and now we get to, to, uh, the star of the show, Michelle Yeoh.

Yeah. I don't know this. I still miss Captain Georgiou from the Battle of the Binary Stars right at the start of Discovery. To me, that captain, the Prime Universe version of that character, was so much more likeable and compelling and interesting. It's, uh, the, the mirror universe, irredeemable, but somehow redeemed, and at the same time, attempting to quip her way through every story she's a part of, has never quite worked with me. What did you think Rob?

Yeah, I mean such a tantalizing open to Discovery. I'm there going this is amazing I'm gonna get a full season of Michelle Yeoh as the ca— oh, all right. Okay. And then when she came back as it's it's I mean Michelle Yeoh is an incredible actor an amazing performer, physical performer and emotional performer as well. Her work from you know Uh, her early work in Hong Kong cinema, you know, her work as being the best Bond girl ever, because she's not a Bond girl, Bond is her boy.

It's not the acting that doesn't work, it's the character that doesn't. She is so full of contradictions, that character, that I cannot buy it. And every time I start to buy it, she changes in a violent, like, sharp left turn that reminds me that this character doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh, the Terran Empire characters are fun, and I do that in inverted commas, because you only get them for an. You only get them for 15 20 minutes. They're

am not hanging out for the Killy series either.

I don't wanna s I don't wanna see, you know, I I love seeing Mirror Kira, mirakira, haha, for, you know, being all s yeah. I love seeing her one or two times being sexually ambiguous. I could not sit through an entire series of that character. No. I want to see her for a, you know, it's, it's a blink and you'll miss it moment, so you get back to the good stuff. I could, yeah, I, I don't know if I could have tolerated, you know, 10 episodes straight of Michelle Yeoh playing, uh, Breaking Bad.

And yet the craft is so here, like those, that scene in her throne room where San seemingly poisons himself in front of her and see her fighting back the tears and pulling herself back together and putting her composure back on and going, Okay, this is what my life is now. Hold it together. You're the emperor. Like it. It is there. You feel it. And it is amazing. And then she's like, uh, Meh. You know, to the, to the, to the, group's plan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And seeing that story fleshed out, the ghost of Sarn, what that means to her, would have been great to see played out. But to have it, you know, again, condensed into, you know, a 90 minute, uh, hour 45, and so the arcs are so rigid, and the turns are so sharp. You can't keep up with it, and you don't really believe it, no matter how much she's investing in those type of scenes. You're going, I only saw him for like five minutes, and I'm meant to feel that?

The overall plot, this is, this is one of those twisty plots that you have to, at the end of it, you sort of sit back and go, What was his plan? exactly?

Ha ha. What was his plan? You saw it three times! Ha ha

Here's what I can make sense of. Um, So we had the, we had the dude Dada Noe at the start, who came into Michelle Yeoh's bar. And this was the guy that the Section 31 group was sent to intercept, because he had this super weapon and he was going to sell it on the black market.

The Godsend.

Yeah, and it turns out we discover that this is not Dada Noe from our universe, this is Mirror Dada Noe who has replaced himself. And the weapon actually comes from the mirror universe. Dada Noe brought it to the prime universe because he wanted to sell it and live here on the proceeds. He was tired of living in the mirror universe where the Terran Empire was falling apart. And this is this is consistence with what we know of Star Trek mirror universe history at this time.

Yes.

Yeah, so

is four lights,

Yeah, the four lights, exactly. So there is an accusation that, that, uh, that the Federation is developing weapons on Minos Korva or something to that effect. And so Minos Korva at the time, we, we understand it to be like, an uninhabited, mysterious place where weapons research might be happening.

Of course, yeah.

So then San enters the picture. Now, San, uh, also got here from the Mirror Universe somehow after faking his death?

Yes.

Now, uh, Rob, you're a, you're a Doctor Who fan and you're familiar with the concept of taking the long way around, right?

We are very much Doctor Who fans, we love the long way round, both in the show and as a show franchise outside.

As far as we are told, San took the long way around to get to this point. He did not do any time travel to get to this point. He hopped universes. He came from the Terran universe to the Prime universe. Somehow, presumably, he found the same passageway. But we have no indication that he is out of time. Emperor Georgiou, however, is out of time. She traveled forward to the 32nd century from the original series time frame

Discovery happened. And then she traveled back to this point. And this point is actually, uh, post Star Trek movies, pre next gen. It's a, it's period of time that we do not have many stories about. But it's the time where, you know, Captain Picard was just joining the Academy, and Beverly Crusher was just being born, and a lot of our cast from Next Generation, this is the time of their birth. Um, so it is 70 years in the future from the time where, um, where Georgiou started.

Yes. Yes. very true. And

This is, big thing that doesn't work, plot

It doesn't work.

And it's, it's It's not something you notice when you watch it the first time, but by the third time you're like, where did you come from? How did you get here? Why are you not in a wheelchair?

Yep. It is. I like that. That's the thing you go to. Go from, how'd you get here? And Why aren't you in a wheelchair? That's Um, yeah. It's very much a case of It does seem like the infamous opening lines of Rise

somehow, Palpatine returned.

Somehow, Palpatine returned, exactly. There's been some to go, maybe there, maybe this particular portal from the Terran universe has a time shift and it's the, the past of the Terran universe connecting to the present of the Star Trek universe. But that doesn't work because of our guy Dada Noe, who came across and replaced himself and no one looked at him and went, wow, you look 70 years younger.

Why are you out of that chair?

So, yeah, it feels like an odd thing to miss, given how long this thing was in the hopper. And can only figure that they were committed to certain things, and this is the closest that they could get to, you know, tying everything up in a bow.

And any justification that could have been done over ten episodes is just blown off the wayside because they've only got, you know, an hour forty, and just gone, he got here, he survived somehow, we can't explain it, and hopefully you are so caught up in the drama and the emotional truth of everything that you won't care. But.

I wonder if there is an explanation that was left on the cutting room floor at

There has to be. There has to be. Uh,

were going to try and write the story that explained this, I would say, look, he faked, he faked his death, right? But he knows this super weapon that he's created that he feels guilty about creating for this mad woman still exists in the world. So he faked his death. And he put himself into suspended animation and if he connected it to the weapon, if anyone ever took the weapon out of its storage box, he would, it would trigger him waking up and that's what's happened.

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Look, as soon as any time discrepancy, you just go, unlike Doctor Who where you can just pop in your TARDIS, it's just, okay, cryogenic freeze, bang, there you go.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, okay, that, that is my head canon for what has happened

Good. Good, good, good. I'm right there with ya.

So San, coming out of suspended animation, is going after the weapon. And now for some reason is motivated to use it to, to, to destroy Emperor Georgiou and get his revenge. That's his plan.

Yes. And, do they still love each other? Do they still have feelings? It's a case of, we spend five minutes with a fight scene, then someone's stabbed, and then we

I'm so sorry now that I'm dying.

It's, yeah, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, emotional truth. Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, emotional truth. You know, you know what you could do? You could weave that into each other so it actually makes sense. So you're not just there going fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. Oh my god, this is what I feel. Yeah, very clumsy, very clunky, poorly edited.

There is in this plot, I feel like one or two big coincidences, like the Mirror Universe weapons facility dude just happening to walk into the bar run by the woman who ordered the thing to be built, given how circuitous a route that Georgiou has taken to get there, beggars belief. And I think this is why the first frames of this film are the quote that talks about fate

Oh

fades in and then the quote fades out and the word fate stays there for a moment. And it's, it's basically saying, brace yourself, this is going to be a huge coincidence.

We're just gonna wash our hands of any type of logic. We use the word fate we faded just to that word.

Yeah. I've said before that I, I kind of don't mind fate in Star Trek. It's been an element ever since, uh, the original City on the Edge of Forever episode of the original series, in which Spock remarks that it is, you know, there is a theory that there are Eddies and, and a flow to time and space that will bring them together, even though that they've been separated in time.

Hahaha. Oh, we notice. We, Star Trek fans notice everything.

Yeah. It also doesn't quite, I don't know, I don't know how much to obsess over this stuff, but when, when we last saw Emperor Georgiou in the 32nd century, she was being torn apart by the fact that she was displaced out of time and out of her universe. And she was told that she couldn't be both at once, so they had to send her back in time, so she was only displaced from her So why send her back to 70 years in her future instead of where she came from in the first place?

Yes. And that seems like it's done for no other reason than to fit in with whatever plans they

Well, this is the Rachel Garrett of it all, is look around, I watch this show and I'm like, there is nothing here that couldn't have happened in the TOS timeframe, except for Rachel Garrett. You want Rachel Garrett, she would not be born at the time where Georgiou came from.

And that begs the question, why her? Rachel. Yeah. Why Rachel Garrett? Great work. Great actor. Great character. Um.

It's like they were setting up, they wanted Rachel Garrett to be a fixture of this TV series that they didn't get to do. They've been dropping Rachel Garrett things, like we had the red, the red woman statue in Lower Decks got destroyed. That, uh, was that in, or was that in something else? It was in Star Trek Picard. There was a, attack that destroyed the big red statue of Rachel Garrett. There were several mentions of Rachel Garrett in later seasons of, uh, Lower Decks as well.

They did so much heavy lifting and it all resulted in nothing. A big pile of nothing.

So anyway, the rest of this movie is just kind of like running around after moles and, uh, chasing people through nebulas and it's, it's a spectacle for the eye and it gives the characters fun stuff to do and say,

There's definitely, there's definitely something appealing about the tension at the end and the team working together in different areas.

I really liked the garbage scow. The whole thing of, it's a garbage scow, it has this shield with tractor beams that can collect junk and are going to hack that thing to, to heck and back just to make it, the weapon they need in order to take down San's sports car ship. Like was all super fun. I really liked Rachel Garrett digging through the trash and finding the doll that she could make explode because she's a chaos goblin. Like I ate all that stuff up.

It did definitely seem, yeah, it's just a case of, it wasn't a specifically written movie script, it was a compromised series of scripts that was condensed down. It's the same thing that happened with Obi Wan in Star Wars. Obi Wan was meant to be a movie, then they went, let's expand it out to a TV series, and the padding shows.

Yeah, how does this sit for you? I mean, I think I know the answer, but where would you rank this in the Star Trek movies? I think that is doing this show an unkindness like said it was not set up to be a movie but And, and I am inclined to treat it as a different thing entirely and not call it a movie, but at least Memory Alpha cites this as the 14th Star Trek film, right after Star Trek Beyond.

Definitely when it comes, it's, it's definitely a fight with, um, uh, Nemesis and, um, Into Darkness, for sure. Um,

Three, five?

What's that?

Three or five?

Um, no, no, no, well, I, yeah, there's, there's,

For all their faults, they were still the good, good cast from back

It's still, still for all their faults, you can, you can, you can laugh it off, you laugh off moments and you go, oh gee, oh my gosh. But, yeah, when it comes to, like, Into Darkness, it's just, it makes me angry. Um, same, and same with Nemesis, but Nemesis has

plug should have been pulled on this one. Like, the fact that you were like, Well, we came this far, we might as well release it to cinemas. That does also bother me

Yeah, it's, it, this doesn't make me angry, though, like, so, maybe a little bit above, uh, Into Darkness, um, yeah,

Well, that feels like, some kind of accomplishment that this ill fated series come movie at least was not the worst Star Trek film.

No, no, and I could, I, I, I definitely enjoyed the performances better than what they did in that. How about you, where does it sit for you?

Oh, it's hard to say.

ha ha

It's because it is such a different beast. Um And I'll say, Into Darkness, and also to a certain extent, Beyond, feel cheap in a way that we didn't have a story worth telling as a movie here, but we had a theater date that we had to hit, and so we made a movie happen. Um,

Especially Beyond, Beyond because they're going, we've got to do something for the 60th. It was more along the lines of, oh sorry, for the 50th. Definitely need to

All respect to Simon Pegg and his co writer whose name I can't remember just this moment But they were basically told you have a weekend something, and it feels like it. So yeah, I and three and five flawed, but like, I think, like you said, there is enough there of a, of a worthwhile character story. Those films have a reason to exist. I wish they had been done better than they were, but I don't regret that they were done at all. So yeah, I think I might put Beyond and Into Darkness below this

Mmhmm.

And, uh, say it's the third worst Star Trek movie.

Yep yep

There was a time when I might have said the motion picture was also a bad Star Trek movie, but the, uh, the re release and revamp of it recently, I feel like has, um, rekindled my like for that movie, if not love. There's a certain amount of nostalgia as well of just seeing those characters in their prime.

The most recent director's cut that's been done is actually very good. It makes it a very good film.

It's still really slow in parts in a way endemic to the time, but, uh, yeah, the, again, I think the movie holds, it justifies its own existence in a way uh, those two that I rank below this one do not. And does Section 31 justify its own existence? I'd say it's right on the bubble. Like, if they had given up and said, we're not doing it, it's not good enough. I could have understood that choice.

Hehehehehe. Yeah. Yeah.

seem to be having fun at times in in this movie as well, which I pay a certain amount of

And I think it definitely does put a full stop at the end of, you know, this has been decades worth of talk about Section 31 happening. And as opposed to creating the definitive series of espionage within Star Trek, this is what we got? A compromised fail? Um,

from Deep Space Nine Section 31 for. Is not an espionage story.

Nah. But like you said, that's a great way of describing it. It's like, yeah, a Mission Impossible, uh, you know, Soldiers of Fortune, A Team type of thing. Um, Suicide Squad.

I presumably, you know, in a world where they did anything else with this idea, you probably, I can't see it being sustainable to get Michelle Yeoh and Jamie Lee Curtis back every, every time for another movie. But the concept of this motley crew doing impossible missions in, on the fringes of the Star Trek universe, I would watch another one of those that was written to be what it ended up being.

Yes. The one is it's hard for me to see it as a movie because it, it just doesn't. It doesn't feel like, you know, at least with Star Trek: The Motion Picture, no matter how slow it is, you can feel the scale of it being cinematic. Um, uh, and even with, you know Beyond and, um, Into Darkness, no matter how much I don't like Into Darkness, it is cinematic. J. J. Abrams know hows to shoot for the big screen.

There were certainly a some effects shots that felt like juiced up even beyond what we normally get in a weekly Star Trek show where the budgets are pretty high already, but some of those nebula shots and the the ship exploding from sabotage over the surface of the planet as the camera, like pans over the tiny people beaming out in the foreground, like some of that stuff I was like, wow, they spent an extra 50 percent on making this look great. But I agree.

Of course, Garrett. Bring back Garrett. Justice for Garrett.

Oh, one more thing. Turkana IV, the, the planet at the end that Jamie Lee Curtis sends them to? I thought you would like to know, Rob. I looked it up. That is Tasha Yar's home planet. That is the ill fated colony where she was dodging the rape gangs, infamously.

I'm not even, I was gonna do a gag there but I won't.

So, can't you wait for the story on Turkana IV?

Oh, if only, if only. Sadly, we can't get to see what would come of that series on that planet. What a, it just, yeah, the, the sadness swells within me even more.

So yes, moles, we had, uh, we had our mole here and, uh, we thought we would go looking for some other examples of, uh, turncoats, double agents, um, enemies hiding in plain sight. Um, and, uh, I'm curious what you came up with. I've been on a bit of a voyage with this one myself, actually.

You have?

Yeah, I got, I started compiling a list and then at a certain point, I actually went and looked up what, what a mole means.

Yeah?

And I don't know how, how accurate this is, but at least memory alpha contends that a mole is not just a spy in, in the ranks. It is a double agent. It is someone working for an opposing government that your, your government agency has turned, uh, to work for you. So, for a mole to exist, uh, according to this definition at least, you need two military bodies and one of them has a traitor in the ranks who is working for the other one.

you

Which is a much finer definition and it, it eliminated a lot of my possibilities. So, like the earliest one I thought of at first was Arne Darvin from the Trouble with Tribbles and Trials and Tribble-ations, the Klingon in disguise.

disguise, yes.

But unless I'm mistaken, Arne Darvin was not a Starfleet posing as a Starfleet officer. He was just like a, uh, a middle functionary who was, uh, who had infiltrated that the space station K 7 in order to try and poison the Quadrotriticale and get, get the, uh, quadrant secured for the Klingons. So he's just a spy. He's not a mole, necessarily. I also thought of Valeris in Star Trek VI.

Yes. Kim Cattrall.

A character I really enjoy. A performance I really enjoy.

Especially where she was at that point, you know, she got her break as, you know, in Porkies and Mannequin and so, sort of like those raunchy, uh, comedy romps

Would famously go on to be in Sex and the City. That

Sex and the City. Um, but

Sex and the City.

But this is Kim Cattrall. She is a classically trained theatre actor. She has played Cleopatra multiple times. Uh, she loves her Shakespearean times on stage. And you see, and Shakespeare and Star Trek go hand in hand. So you see her in a different light. And considering it was meant to be a character we've already seen

Yeah. originally written as Saavik and then I am, I have read that at a certain point Valeris, uh, was going to be revealed during this story to be the daughter of Spock and Saavik from

That's right. We have talked about

the Genesis planet. Um, but all of that was taken out before the, uh, final version of this story and Valeris is just a Vulcan who makes some bad choices, and decides Klingons are not to be trusted.

An incredible performance

Yeah, really great. Uh, but she is, she is just a traitor. She is just a conspirator, not mole. Heh

She's a dirty,

heh heh.

She doesn't earn the right to have the word mole associated with her.

And a big one that I spent a lot of time refreshing my memory on was Julian Bashir replaced by a Changeling in, uh, Deep Space Nine's fifth season.

That's right, yes, yes, yes.

Um, and he also, I mean, not really a mole. Like, he's been replaced. It's not that they turned Julian Bashir to the Dominion side. It's that they literally kidnapped Julian Bashir and replaced him with an imposter. So he's an imposter, not a mole.

Yes.

Uh, but yeah, lots of fun for those who don't remember or who haven't watched Deep Space Nine. Um, there is a series of episodes after which we discover Julian Bashir on a Dominion prison colony, having been abducted and then you, you, you're like, Oh, so how long has Julian Bashir been a changeling? And we're told in the story he's, he's been, uh, kidnapped for about a month. And you're like, well, that's probably more than one episode.

yes.

Often the, the episode where the uniforms changed is used as a marker where, okay, then that means that's no longer a real Julian. The first episode without the uniforms is, uh, Season 5, Episode 10, Rapture, where, um, where Sisko, uh, has a shock in Quark's holosuite, and it lets him have a lot of visions to find this ancient Bajoran city that's hidden underground, and then he goes a little mad and, uh, advises the Bajorans not to, to join the Federation yet,

That's

be destroyed by a swarm of locusts coming out of the wormhole they do. Um, and there's The Darkness and the Light, Episode 11, that comes after this, where, uh, where Julian gives Kira a late pregnancy checkup, um, and repairs her placental laceration, diagnoses that Kira was unaffected by the sedative, uh, that a, an evil Cardassian gave her, thanks to the pregnancy herbs that she was taking. So a fair bit of doctoring happening there for a changeling plant.

Gives Odo his ability to shapeshift again. It's a beautiful moment where he runs through the promenade and can, uh, change into a bird.

And when all of the, the, like, conspicuous mentions of time in the various scripts are tallied up, this seems to be the, the, the episode where Julian was first a changeling. And it kind of makes sense that he was mostly administering to the health needs of a baby changeling in this episode, which you can almost buy he does. Kira famously gives birth in this episode as well to the O'Briens' baby, and a lot of people are like, Ooh, did Julian deliver Kira's baby?

Ha ha ha.

Uh, in For the Uniform, the next episode, Bashir does not appear at all, but we have heard, um, off screen that Siddig, uh, Alexander Siddig did film a scene that was deleted from this in which he was told as the actor for the first time that he was a changeling in disguise, but they took it out. And I guess they said they didn't want to tip their hand too early. And then, we have In Purgatory's Shadow where, where it's revealed, where we, we find him on the uh, on the prison planet.

Another one. Another, yeah, when it comes to changelings then, it's, uh, it's very hard to, to see, uh, the definition mole being used.

Yeah, so I, I did land on one mole, and I'm curious if it's the same one you came up with. It's another Deep Space Nine episode.

Mm hmm. Um, yeah. Want to say it at the same time?

Is it, uh, Season 7, Episode 16, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges?

No, it is not. And I'm, I'm. I'm questioning it now because I'm looking at the story, and they're going, Are they moles? I don't think they are.

I'm sorry I poisoned you with that thought that don't know if Memory Alpha is to be trusted I think mole is open to interpretation

Oh, look how, how, how Memory Alpha has gone from being a trusted source possibly now being fake news. Well, let's go back to mine. We're going, uh, Season 4, Episode 11 and 12. Homefront and Paradise Lost.

Yes, yes, yes, of course.

This is an incredible two part story. This is friggin great. There is so much happening in these two 45 minute episodes of television.

Largely on Earth. I, you know, I love a visit to future Earth as well.

There is so yeah, exactly. So, uh, Sisko and Odo are sent back to Earth. Uh, they are to find out more about the fact that there is a changeling within Federation or on Earth somewhere.

Yeah, they got this revealed to them. They're like, there is a, there is a mole or there is a in Starfleet or something.

They're shown, uh, footage, there's a, there's a conference in Antwerp, and, uh, they slow down the footage, and a pot, uh, just before the explosion,

that. Yes. That

that they fo enhance, and as, as Worf says, enhance, um, and the, just before it explodes, the pot shifts its shape and you see the changeling uh, uh, form, and, and the explosion kills 27 people.

I know a low blow, but That one gag is more interesting and satisfying than anything that happens in all of Star Trek: Section 31.

Ha ha ha ha. Yep. Yep yep yep. Um, and so there's layer upon layer, so Jake goes back with Sisko so they can go see, uh, Grandpa, uh, the beautiful, uh, Brock Peters, uh, in New Orleans, uh, to try their Creole food, and you don't even know the difference between Creole and Cajun. Um, plus you've got, uh, Odo going through the trauma of uh, going up against his people and the distrust within the Federation, the

remember this thick sense of foreboding as well, of like, we're going home, it's supposed to be like a happy reunion, but there's this sense of doom that the changelings are everywhere, and it's too late.

And, um, Sisko connecting with his old captain, who's now, uh, Admiral, uh, Leyton, um, and layer upon layer upon layer of, of what's going on, and who's the real trouble behind it, and, um, we have the President of uh, Earth, uh, played by the same species, or the same species that we see in a later, um, Lower Decks episode with, uh, upper, upper decks that comes in to look at the space cows, uh, and then it reveals to be the insectoid rip apart and going, I've seen that species before.

I would not have been able to get that from memory. I had to look it up, but

We've got so much. Like about the presidents didn't want to be president and he didn't want to have to face this, you know, this incoming war and possible, um, martial law. So it's all about who is the changeling and then that evolves into who is betraying the Federation.

Hmm.

Um, there's a lot of layers. You've got Nog coming back in, you've got Red Squadron. You've got, um, you know, a beautiful little moment in episode two, I believe, where they talk about religion, and, but, you know, Kira talks about how we're very religious within Bajor, and, Worf does the most incredible speech about going, we did have gods, but they were killed by our ancestors.

I love that. Um, and yeah, it tracks as well. I mean, they, they worship Kahless, who is just a, a really great Klingon warrior. And the fact that, uh, he was such a Klingon warrior, he killed the gods makes sense.

Killed the gods because they, yeah, they were, they, you know, they took advantage of the Klingon people. Um, so it's a lot of lack of trust and moments that to deal with. Of, you know, who's a changeling and taking blood tests and everyone has to do it and it's very, it hits so much with today, especially with, you know, are you getting vaccines? Are you not getting vaccines? Are you, you know, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I don't need to do this. Everyone that needs to do this.

Yeah, harder now than at the time this show came out.

God, very much so.

Families torn apart about whether you should trust the, the establishment with blood and so on. Yeah.

And we talked about it a little bit, uh, in the past about just seeing a successful, um, black family in science fiction or in any drama. Um, uh, played out well and not having to deal with anything other than their own personal dramas, um, is a beautiful sight to see as a representation of, you know. That stands out as a symbol for not being, uh, it, it, it hits an issue by not dealing with the issue, but hitting it.

And a lovely, uh, a lovely bad admiral who turns out to be worse than even we feared.

So he's not a changeling, but he, uh, is very much along the line of Brock Peters' character in Star Trek VI, the Admiral who goes against the Federation because he believes he's more Federation than the Federation.

Yes, that's right.

Admiral Leyton wants to bring in martial law, and stricter protection to protect the Federation and believes the Federation and, uh, everyone else is being too soft, that the only way to protect is, you know, causing all this espionage and problems and subterfuge so that he can get his way and have more troops on the streets and more protection out there in the sky, but the threat is already there. Um, so yeah, is he a mole? Not really. Is he a traitor? Yes.

Is he a spy or like an imposter? Yeah.

Yeah. Is he, Yeah.

But I love that double layer of, like, we, we, know the bad admiral prototype, the fact that you would not agree with his takes that, um, our characters would be hard done by the admiral, that's all standard Star Trek trope stuff.

And he goes through quite a journey, cause he's quite pleasant and amiable at the start.

they always are, Rob, those bad admirals, they're always very, they have a very firm handshake and a very nice smile.

That's how they get ya, and then the next scene he sort of like has a bit of a run in with Odo, and then he turns out that that's a changeling, uh, admiral, so he runs away and flies off. And then it turns out It's a double double bluff, when he comes out and actually he's the one all behind it, uh, but he's not a changeling, he's just a

Oh, that's right. So it's he is a bad Admiral. It's just the changeling was impersonating him. Ah,

one scene, one scene.

Yeah, right.

And then it all ends at the end with, uh, O'Brien arriving, O'Brien the changeling, having a chat with Sisko about, you know how many changelings are actually

So creepy. So creepy.

And Colm Meaney is such an incredible actor, he's just smiling the whole time going, Four! We did this with just four changelings! We pretty much brought your whole culture to an end, uh, close to the brink with just four of us.

So they're kind of literal moles in that they're burrowing tunnels under your backyard and everything's about to collapse in on itself.

Weakening the structure from within.

Yeah, wow. Oh, real good. Okay.

Yeah, so there's some incredible, like, they have confrontations with the Defiant and, um, uh, one of the Federation ships, uh, there's some incredible space sequences, you've got family drama, you've got, uh, intrigue. You've got amazing stuff going

Those stories of like the, the enemies at the gate and we can't stop fighting ourselves. Um, yeah, so tense. Really

You've got like Nog doubting himself cause he's only been at, uh, he's been at the Federation and he's been at Starfleet for like a couple of months. And so he's getting support from, uh, all the Siskos and they introduced this Red Squadron, which we've kind of seen, you know, those, um, uh, Federation cadets going, gone bad. Um, because they think they're entitled and above themselves. There's so many layers here.

Yeah. Oh, good. Stands up, uh, stands up on rewatch, this two parter?

Oh, it's, I, I watched them last night and, um, I was meant to be doing work while I was watching. Uh, that work did not, that work did not get done.

Yes. I know the feeling.

Um, so yes, let's skip ahead to season seven.

Yeah, Season 7, Episode 16, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, which is a Latin quote by Cicero, the playwright, that, uh, it is, this quote is said and explained in the episode. It means in times of war, the law falls silent. And this is a Section 31 episode, strangely enough.

Do we have Mr. William Sadler in

We do indeed, and he is better than I remembered.

I love William Sadler. He's such a great actor. What a wonderful actor.

I remembered him being a little more mustache twirly than he actually was. He is a smiling villain who is utterly convinced that he's right, and doesn't need to be mean to make his point. He is, he is no more dismissive or unkind than his mission requires. He's relatively personable. And it's just that everyone violently disagrees with everything he's doing, and he's okay with that.

And this is, and this is all with Bashir, isn't? This Bashir, yeah, Bashir and Section 31 are so tied together

Well, we've had several previous run ins between Bashir and Section 31, and the start of this episode, Bashir is under instruction from Sisko to play along the next Sloan shows up. And that's more or less what happens here. Um, Bashir wakes up in the middle of the night in his bedroom to find Sloane sitting in an armchair at the foot of his bed with a

And, and Garak is very very jealous.

Indeed. Uh, and, um, oh man, I, I'm thinking back to those Julian Bashir Changeling episodes where Garak gets a lot of great stuff to do as well. He gets to meet his, uh, his old master who turns out to be his father, Enabran Tain,

That's right. Tain, yes.

he, he goes to rescue him, but he's too late. Tain dies, but, uh, in his dying moments on his deathbed, acknowledges him as his son and tells him he's proud. And yeah, real good stuff for Garak

There's some great Garak stuff, yeah.

But yes, this is, uh, very much a, uh, story for Julian Bashir, who, um, who plays along with, uh, because he doesn't have much choice, he is sent on assignment to a conference on Romulus. And at this point, Starfleet is doing everything they can to keep the Romulans on their side war against the Dominion. very worried that they'll, the Romulans may change their minds and switch sides. The Romulan government is, it is somewhat controversial that they are in an alliance with the Federation.

This of course this is of course all after, uh, By the Pale Moonlight, where, uh, Sisko did, he compromised his, uh, moral beliefs to get the

Brought the Romulans into the war on their side. Yes. So it's all on a shaky foundation of lies.

Love Love it. Bring it on.

So yes, on the surface, Julian is there just to share, um, he's an expert in Ketracel White and Dominion weapons, biogenic weapons, and he's giving a, uh, a conference talk on Romulus about it.

Ah, excellent.

And, um, and it turns out, Koval, spoilers for this episode, is our mole. We think, on the surface, we, along with Julian, are led to believe that Koval is the one who is arguing against Romulus being in this alliance. He is the one we want to keep from rising to power in Romulan government. And so, his assassination will actually help Starfleet keep the Romulans on side. But in fact, Koval is secretly working for Starfleet.

the traitor. All that, yeah.

So, so, so, so, satisfying. Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a great one written by our friend Ronald D. Moore. So, you know, he's great at a twisty political intrigue story and

hail Ron.

Yeah, at the top of his game here.

And that's the thing, and that's where, you know, Deep Space Nine went darker and warlike more than any other. But having this Section 31 show up for an episode here or there, you can hit that darkness. And then

And he's represented by one dude. You don't know who he works for or where he's from or what his childhood was like. He's just a, a, a person who works in the shadows for forces of darkness. Um, and every once in a while, gets some, uh, protection from senior officials who should know better.

Yeah.

The, the admiral in this episode, who seems all, uh, on the straight and narrow, Um, it turns out, like Julian figures out at the end that he was working with Section 31, and they have a badges off conversation where Julian, protests the injustice and the admiral says, well, I can live with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was Julian, what Julian was so good at is that, um, there was a wide eyed naivety in some ways to that moral high ground that he always strived for, and that's why it's so great within the darkness here to be going, you know, I am above this. I will not stoop to this level.

Yeah. Uh, very much a, uh, Alexander Siddig episode. Like he's away from the station, and so most of the regular characters are not present or just like here as bookends in this episode. Um, he, he very much carries it. And along the fantastic guest cast.

Wonderful actor. Wonderful actor, Alexander Siddig. Quite an underrated, I think, within the Star Trek annals. He's gone on and done great stuff. Um, hasn't really, you know, skyrocketed himself into any stardom, but

No, yeah, I feel like he has matured like a fine wine as an actor as well. If, if there were some excuse to tell a elder Bashir story, he would do such a good job with it.

Most definitely. Most definitely. It would be great to see where Bashir is at now. Um, and yep, and that young naivety and see what has, if that hope is still there within Bashir. Um, well that's strive for, you know, um, for the greater good. Um, yeah, yeah, it's a great, yeah, you talking about now, I remember it. So, the double play between Saddler and, uh, Sidig is just incredible.

It's a beautiful self contained episode as well. This was like one of, if not the last episode before that, like nine part series finale epic that

Yes, I think Badda-bing Badda-bang is just after it or just before it?

right. Badda-bing, Badda-bang is just before it. There's this, and then we go into the, the final arc. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the final standalone episode of Deep Space Nine, if you will. And what a good one. It really does stand alone. It's a tight, tightly plotted puzzle box that with a really satisfying resolution.

And a Section 31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Boom. Look

who have known that the only two moles I could find in Star Trek were both in Section 31 stories?

And done much better than what we've just watched.

All right, well, Rob, it was fun to tease it apart with you. I hope the next helping of new Star Trek we get is a standing on less shaky legs.

I particularly enjoy the fact that it just didn't become, you know, an hour of bile. I love the fact that you are able to put a spotlight on, uh, what it could have done, what it did achieve, what, uh, things do do well. So it's not just, there's far too much of just, you know, Uh, darkness and hate online at the moment for us to look at something we, we didn't like it. We didn't, we didn't, it didn't achieve what it could have done, but we can find what was done well. And I, I really appreciate

Look, if nothing else, it opened with a map. And I, as a nerd, love a story that opens with a map I have read that there are two Starbase 17s on that map, so the map is not to be scrutinized too closely. Nevertheless, it's a map, and I

a map. We'll, we'll take it. We'll take, we'll take whatever win we can.

Well, until we next meet in the, uh, in the currents and eddies of fate and time, Rob,

I'm going to go watch Yesterday's Enterprise, and I think I'm going to binge watch, re watch all of Deep Space Nine again.

Well, start with yesterday's Enterprise. I can't wait to hear what you make of Rachel Garrett and whether you too see the connection in the characterization.

forward to it. You, uh, take care of yourself and, um, we'll get, we'll go into, we'll go into a deep sleep, a cryogenic freeze, and come back in 70 years,

Very good.

to talk about Strange New Worlds when it's there.

See you 'round the cryo chamber.