Welcome to the Sub Club Podcast. a show dedicated to the best practices for building and growing app businesses. We sit down with the entrepreneurs, investors, and builders behind the most successful apps in the world to learn from their successes and failures. SubClub is brought to you by Revenue Cat. Thousands of the world's best apps trust RevenueCat to power in-app purchases
manage customers, and grow revenue across iOS, Android, and the web. You can learn more at revenuecat.com. Let's get into the show. Hello, I'm your host, David Bernard, and my guest today is Daphne Teidman. speaker, writer, and freelance growth advisor specializing in subscription apps and other D2C products. On the podcast, I talk with Daphne about why skipping user interviews is costing you growth.
how to bring your product's aha moment forward into your marketing, and why your assumptions about why people use your app might be wrong. hey definitely thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today Thanks for having me. Really looking forward to chatting. This topic is one that we've kind of touched on on the podcast before, but we haven't done a deep dive. I think that's a shame. So I'm excited to have you on and talk about.
jobs to be done. You've done a webinar, some blog posts on the Revenue Cat blog. So let's say again, what is jobs to be done? So it's definitely a great topic to talk about because it's something that once you understand it, it changes everything the way you see it. And it's getting away from like, what is it that your app actually does? And thinking instead, like a job to be done is like, what is your end user trying to achieve? What is the end goal?
And I always think of it as like they're going from A to B and you're helping them along the way in that journey. And it's working out what does that journey look like and how can you support them to get there. rather than just thinking about like, look, this is what we do, these are the features we have. Because so many apps are constantly talking about, we have this feature, that feature.
But that's not why people use your app. How do you discover those jobs to be done? How do you go through and figure out how people relate to your app in that way? So I think the most important part of it and working out is really speaking to your end users and having those interviews and trying to understand like, OK, what led you to actually using our.
And just treating it again as like almost a journey that you came along halfway in that journey. They probably didn't just suddenly start struggling in that very moment. They probably been trying to work it out for a while and trying to figure out like what was then. the reason, the problem they were trying to solve and diving really deep into that as to what were they doing before that? How were they solving it in the past?
And what then led them in that moment to think, hey, let me try out your app. And that will really tell you like, okay, what are they trying to solve? What are they trying to achieve? And asking really about like that outcome, what difference were they hoping to see by using your app? That's for me the most valuable way of doing it. But often when I'm trying to work this out with a brand, I like to have multiple data points. So the other thing I also like to do is go through all the reviews.
Obviously, there'll always be some reviews that are just purely about like the functionality of the app. Hey, it crashed. I'm unhappy about this or great app. And that tells you nothing. But I've also found that review mining and going through like all the reviews and reading the more in-depth reviews of like them saying like, oh, I came across this because I was really struggling with my ADHD and I was trying to find a way to better focus.
Someone recommended this to me. We'll also help you work out like, okay, what are they trying to achieve? The other thing I also like to do is look at like, okay, with a survey data, working out who are the ones who are staying the longest. so who's been subscribed for a while who's actively using your app
They're not just basically have a subscription they've forgotten about, but they're actively using your app. They're making the most of it and asking them through a survey. That's really a good technique if you have a big database to make sure that your interviews are more focused. But if I could choose one thing, I always say to interviews because that's everyone's least favorite thing because it costs the most time.
but it's the most valuable. Yeah, totally. When going through that discovery process, how do you think about primary jobs to be done and secondary jobs to be done? and how those relate to each other example i've given on the podcast before and what i think about constantly is you know i still have my side project weather app and
It's interesting to me that there is a primary job to be done of like, is it going to rain tomorrow? What's the weather like today? And I can kind of go through and figure out some of those. jobs to be done but then there's also like weird subtle jobs to be done where kind of weather is almost entertainment for folks weather is a topic of discussion and part of the job to be done for some people using my weather app or any weather app
is knowing the weather so that you can have a conversation about it later. So, oh, you know, it's going to rain tomorrow or gosh, wow, like it's going to get really cold next week or. It's probably not something I would use for messaging. You know, like this is the best app to be able to talk about the weather.
But it is kind of like part of the subtlety of how people think about using a weather app, even if it's not a primary. So how do you think about those aspects of the primary jobs to be done and the secondary jobs to be done? And even the... you know, apps where it's maybe not as tasked oriented but maybe the job to be done is a little more subtle so i think it's really good to get that layer deeper of like what is it
that's actually driving them to come back because that's also for the retention side hugely important and also in terms of your differentiator because a lot of apps can tell the weather so you just feel like messaging around like, hey, you know, you can find out what the weather is tomorrow and you're not going to stand out. And I think it's actually in those secondary, more subtle things that you allow things to stand out.
We did the painkiller versus vitamins webinar with Weltery. It's a health tracking app. People love the data side of it, but it's actually making it more fun, making it almost like fun to check out and like little learning moments and almost as engaging and scrolling through like, you know. X and reading these little nuggets of wisdom that get people back.
So I think it's really good to know those secondary ones. And even if you don't use it in your messaging, they might be what drives that retention because they might be that extra side of it that creates an emotional connection. And I think when we talk about...
jobs to be done there's like the functional drivers like purely like i'm trying to solve this problem like i'm trying to stay fit but there's also the emotional drivers like i'm you know i'm not feeling as strong as i was i feel like i'm getting insecure about how i look and
Those emotional drivers, I'm not saying misuse them in any way, but I think they're stronger. They are so much stronger than the functional drivers. So I think even if they are secondary, they might be stronger for you to get it back. So I don't think you always have to pick one or the other. I think it's good to understand.
both sides of it and to then work out like what do you want to like show also and that was also a really good thing that came out of the webinar when we were talking about it was this example of rather than trying to tell people with your messaging like messaging is so much more than that it's not just the language it's how you're positioning yourself by showing them things rather than telling them.
And like going back to that Welltree example, they would basically pull in your data in the onboarding and you'd immediately get some insights about yourself in the onboarding rather than tell you we can give you insights. You mentioned another category too. It is nice. for folks when they're thinking through this jobs to be done discovery, like what are these jobs to be done? You also mentioned social drivers.
So yeah, functional drivers, emotional drivers, and social drivers. So what is that social driver piece and how should people be thinking about that? Yeah, so I think with the social assignments, like we can pretend that we're very rational people. We're really not. Society's expectations and what...
plays a role in our decision-making and also that desire for connection. And we see that also growing as a form of gamification in a lot of apps of like, how do we connect with others that we might not even know that we might have never met? and that that can also create a driver to do things
Like going back to like the workout, it's the thing that we know we should do. But for a lot of us, it is a struggle. It is a struggle to do it. And so having people hold you accountable and also appreciate it when you do things. I don't very actively use Strava, but I always get kudos from a few people who always standardly are like, kind of supporting on that and i i go on there to support them too especially when i know they're training for a race or something or a competition like
And that social aspect can also be a driver and a reason why you use something. So that's also a consideration, especially with apps where there's a community scent or there's some fun little gamification about the social aspect. That can be a big reason why they use your app is to feel that connection. Yeah, the founder of Ladder Fitness App had him on the podcast twice now, but the most recent episode, he talked about how
There's a new feature they added. It's like a cheer feature where live while you're working out, other people can kind of cheer you on. And he said that they ran the data on that and people getting cheered on was highly correlated with. additional retention or like some amount of increase in retention. I forgot exactly the numbers he shared, but it's exactly what you're saying is that, you know, the latter app.
is now more attentive for incorporating those social dynamics into it. And then, yeah, we see this a ton in community apps. There's another health and fitness app I've had in the podcast, a food logging app. And they have a huge community and the community is a huge driver of that long term retention. So, yeah, there's so many examples of how this social dynamic. And again, you don't think of it as a job to be done. You wouldn't necessarily say like.
The job to be done with ladder is to get cheered on in a workout? No. I mean, how would you reframe that then under this kind of social driver? How would you frame that as a social job to be done? That's a good one. When I experienced this, I want this so that I can is usually the framework I use in Framing News. And so I would almost say like, let's take ladder as an example. And I really can relate to this because I've had it. I use Peloton.
And I've had it also on Peloton where like some random person claps me on and I just suddenly start biking fast then. It's ridiculous because they can't see me. They can maybe see how many like... output i've done but like i just like start biking faster so i believe this really does work but i would say it's like okay when i want to let's say when i want to get stronger i want to feel supported and motivated to work out
so that I can stay consistent and see the results. It's not the perfect framing, but we're going on the spot here. And I think it's almost like the... How, how you get your users there is that social kind of driver. It's like, if you understand what drives them, you can play on that to help them achieve their job to be done. If you understand that.
the social aspect of it matters to them or helps keep them consistent and that accountability, then you can play on that. So it might not even be in your job to be done sentence, but it might almost be like that.
Understanding that that's what's driving them and knowing that underlying drivers of that job to be done might be what helps you then help them to achieve their goal, if that makes sense. So there's so many ways once you start to... understand the jobs to be done for your app to then apply them across all different parts of the app. So let's start with messaging and how to apply this understanding of jobs to be done to messaging. And I really liked what you already said about my weather app.
If all I'm messaging to people is, You can check the weather. There's a million apps that can check the weather. And that's part of understanding these jobs to be done is also helping identify those differentiating features. So how do you work that into messaging? how impactful can that be in more effective messaging? Yeah. So I think my first step is always narrowing it down because I think that's something that a lot of apps struggle with is that there's quite a few potential ones.
And then when they try to cover all of it, it's really hard to get that in there because, you know... you are more limited in like okay how many places and how much can i communicate and obviously in the end of the day you can always personalize it or make different personalized flow but you kind of want to have this starting point
of like what is my initial messaging so i always first with the jobs to be done try to narrow it down a bit you should have already narrowed it down by only speaking to those like high spending users and those high potential ones but then i also look at like What is the problem that we're trying to solve?
How good are we at actually solving that problem? How good a solution are we for that? And how much chance is there that we can differentiate? And that's where, like, another part of my research... which we haven't talked about yet, comes in, which is competitor analysis and understanding which angles the competitors are going on. back to the weather app, like if everyone's just saying, you know, check it within a moment or talk about the weather, like...
then you're not going to stand out on that. And then I'll narrow that down. And then what I'll do before I integrate it into all the messaging of the app itself is I'll test it first. And if you're running ads, meta ads are great for this because what I've done in the past is I've literally tested very similar visuals with different messaging overlay on them and different messaging in the text.
and then tested those against each other. First on like the job to be done level with a more general like image that isn't skewing people too much in one direction or another. And then narrowing it down of like, do we want to talk about pains? Do we want to talk about the gains? of what people are trying to, you know, get in terms of benefits? Do we want to talk very literally about the jobs to be done? Do we want to talk about the situations when you're experiencing this?
This could help you. There's different ways of bringing it across. So I tend to narrow that first down within the ads and everyone's always like meta is so visual, so visual, but it's insane. Like the differences I've seen in like the click through rates just with like.
these different jobs to be done. And then I start to see like, okay, how can I then start to not only be able to like, like what we talked about before, like bring it across in a copy way, but how can I bring it across in a visual way? And so when we're talking about messaging and integrating it, we need to be looking at every single visual we do, every single message we do, like how can we bring this across to the user in a way that it then resonates with them.
And if you've done all set up review mining and gone through all those reviews and kept like a nice log of the reviews, and yes, you can speed it all up with AI, but. I really believe strongly and also just spending a few hours just completely immersing yourself in the language, you'll have this extra benefit on top of that with the messaging for the copy side of it where suddenly your language becomes more human.
it starts to resonate more and so like I would start really first with like the acquisition side not to like improve acquisition but to use it as a way to test different messaging and once you've tested that in a few different ways you can also use emails for this if you've got a good size email base you can test with push notifications you can test this in different ways
Once I start to get confident of like, hey, we're consistently seeing this win, that's when I start to test integrating it step by step and seeing like, how can we bring this better across? And you're actually looking at in meta, the different conversion rates and even the different monetization of the user, depending on the way you frame the job to be done. Yeah. So I'm literally looking at like, okay.
If they have enough data and the cost per trial, for example, is low enough, then we can do it based on that. That's the ideal. If it's not, or if they're a very new app and they don't have big budgets, then I'll look on click-through rates and see what seems to be resonating better versus the rest.
I will say when I do it on a click-through rate basis, because click-through rate doesn't always perfectly correlate, I will try to run a few tests and see if I can test it somewhere else. I've also, by the way, like... used for example a usability hub to run five-second tests with two messaging and Ask people like what their preferences and why and like what stood out That's also really really good in refining it because sometimes you use a word that just
triggers people the wrong way or people don't understand what you mean you're trying to be too smart And so that can also, like, if you feel like, hey, I really don't seem to be getting it right, or I feel like there's something quite off, but I don't know what, of getting a bit more qualitative feedback on it. How do you think about different personas, too? In latter, you know, my wife. is a persona which is so different than like me as a persona and you know there's so many different
perceptions of those jobs to be done. So yeah, how do you hone in on that? Because even in the A-B testing, maybe overall one message resonated more, but the other message did resonate well with a different audience. How do you think about the percentage in that? The reality is we rarely have just one job to be done. And we rarely just have like one way of like resonating with that job to be done.
So I first tried to get the most out of that job to be done because I think people are very quick to try and do everything at the same time. And I will build a persona around that job to be done. So for me, personas aren't about fluffy demographics. They're really about like, what is the person trying to achieve? What are their struggles? What are their questions?
And so I'll first really try to get the most out of that job to be done. But then I'll go back and see like, okay, also again, based on that survey data, we probably had a few jobs to be done. that we're spending quite a bit, that we're retaining, that seem to love the app and using it actively. So I'll go back and like interview a different group and try to work out, okay, what's different with them versus the other one? And how can we basically then adjust?
the way we're doing things to them and i think that's a great thing like about like if you are using ads meta will find people who will resonate with your ads so you can have different groups of ads one that's speaking to one job to be done one that's speaking to another where i think it gets a bit tricky is like obviously you can use like custom like landers for them like in terms of like what they're seeing in the app store or if you're doing web to app it's you know you can also do it there
But where I think it gets a bit more tricky is once they're in the app. I think that's where the personalization within onboarding flow is really important. that you're adjusting like the content that they're seeing and the experience they're having in that onboarding to the different jobs we've done. So like Headspace, for example, they're very focused on sleep.
But if you say you're struggling with anxiety and stress, you're going to see very different content in app than if you click on see. And I think that's how like apps can also adjust this, like making sure they're asking the right questions and onboarding to work out. what, like, variant of that job to be done.
are they speaking to and what do they then need to show them to to actually be able to onboard them and resonate with them like they're probably going to be showing a different form of social proof they're probably going to be
talking about different content and that they're probably going to be using different language and i think that's where that onboarding comes in like it's not about like learning it for your sake but it's learning it for their sake so that you can still feel like it resonates with you
in terms of that job to be done. And I think LADA does that too. I haven't used it myself, but I've gone through their like quiz ones before and they seem to ask you quite specific questions where they're trying to work out. Who are you and why are you potentially going to use it? Yeah, totally. I finally started using the latter app myself recently. It's funny because it gets to the point is that I was using the app FitBod.
And my job to be done was that I want to specifically build some muscle. I'm 46 and all the experts are saying to age well, you need to have a decent amount of muscle mass on you. And so I didn't associate ladder with that as directly as I did FitBot. And then it's like in the home gym and I like to customize my workout. And so like there were all these like subtle things where I just thought, oh, the ladder app's not for me.
But once I went through the onboarding and then I found the right. So what they do is they ask you all these different questions and then they pair you with a specific coach. What's fascinating there is that in the ladder app, in a way. They have lots of different jobs to be done because for my wife, she has totally different goals. And what's great is they have different coaches inside the app that have different.
they almost kind of satisfy those different jobs to be done. And so I got paired with... a coach who was very specific to like what I want in a workout. And then once I finally did the workout, it was incredible. They do kind of like take you through this whole process of figuring out.
who you are, what you want out of a workout app. And then they pair you with like the exact right person. We talk about that a ton on the podcast. I almost feel embarrassed saying I just started using it. And then also that we talk about it so much. But they're just they're crushing it. I mean, they're growing like crazy. And part of the reason is.
things like this. It's like the FitBot app. It's great. It's a great app. I used it for years. I've really enjoyed it. But why I think Louder is doing so well is that they're able to satisfy the jobs to be done of a fitbot app and a peloton app and enough it's like
Because they have so many different coaches, because they have such great personalization, they're really executing on this whole idea that we're talking about with the jobs to be done. And it starts, again, all the way in their advertising. I did want to kind of step back.
to the advertising again before we get into like using jobs to be done for activation because i do want to dig deeper into that too are there kind of specific examples because i love for folks to be able to like tangibly take away things and to try in their app, in their marketing and everything else. So what are specific examples of messaging in screenshots, in marketing, in social copy, in all the different ways? you're going to be getting attention and funneling people into the app
How do you think about that messaging and what specific examples can you give of communicating those jobs to be done in the messaging? And you mentioned this concept, I think, in a blog post, a message market fit. How do you fit that message to that market? Yeah, so I think there's two sides of it.
What's the messaging for that market? And then that messaging breaks down into like the positioning and the language that you use. When it comes to like the ad side of it, I think one of the strongest formats that gets used a lot is just the transformation. And that's what, you know, I've been hammered by the ladder of their ads, like basically showing me like, hey, this is what I looked like before. Now I've been using ladder. This is what I look like now.
And Cooper, a personalized running app, had a really good one of this before where They were also showing like the pain point of, I actually knew the person in the ad, Esme, she's a fitness influencer. And she was showing like, okay, this was my marathon time. And then again, and again, and each time I'm not improving, I'm getting similar times.
And then I started training with Cooper and I've actually, you know, I'm training less, I'm feeling better. And I finally got my marathon time down and I'm hitting the like. you know, the goal I want. And so I think that transformation is such a good one and makes like a really good like, because then it's like what you said, like it was only when you saw people like you.
that you thought it was for you. And I think that's like format of like seeing people like you with the same struggle, trying to do the same thing works really well. And one of the examples I've given recently is of this app called Tractive, which is a dog tracking app. and they are a combination of an app and a physical product, a tracker that you can mow your dog.
I have a half husky, which anyone who has a husky or knows huskies well know that they are notorious for running away. My dog likes to run away. And I saw a million of their ads. but all their ads were 35% off on dog and cat trackers. gps and health trackers like if your ad is just saying get this discount this is what we do that's not speaking to someone's job to be done Then I read one of their reviews and it was about this Siberian husky that had run off.
and the owner was so grateful she had attractive it gave her so much peace of mind Because the dog literally got in a car with a stranger who was trying to find their owner. They weren't stealing. They were literally just driving around. And the owner could follow this car for 15 minutes to the vet that they decided like, okay, let's just bring the dog here until we can work out.
you know, with maybe the microchip roots front, and they could get their dog back and just literally follow their dog on having this little ride along with a random stranger. And I was like, if I saw an ad showing this, I would have bought this years ago, but it took me losing my dog for the 10th time. And multiple people telling me, you're like, you're an idiot trying to fix this with an air tag. You keep losing your dog. Either you don't let him lose or you put him on, you know.
Well, you get a better tracker for me to realize this was the solution I needed. And so I could have bought it five years ago. They could have had so much more money for me if I'd realized that I didn't just didn't know that I needed a GPS tracker. I didn't think that was the solution. I spent. ages trying to train my dog. I spent ages trying to find alternative ways of doing it with long leashes, with using an air tag.
But I just didn't process like that. That GPS tracker would work so much better until I actually lost my dog again. And I just followed him through the forest on his little wander around until I could get him back on the edge and be like, OK, you've lost walking loose duties.
So I think like trying to bring to life that journey, either the start of the journey or where they can be, is one of the most powerful ad formats out there. And there's a reason why Lado, who you're right, are crushing it. And I've been tempted to use. at so much from all the ads I've seen.
I've just been very strict on myself because I just got my Peloton and my Peloton subscription. But it's because it's like you say, it's exactly like they're speaking so clearly to like my pain boy of like, hey.
you know you want to get like more into shape you want to do it efficiently and not over train you want to feel not just like that you look a certain way but you feel strong you feel good and they're showing literally people who look exactly like me and the transformation they're seeing that i'm like i'm so tempted by this but i really shouldn't yeah yeah there really is such a good example another good example i've been seeing lately and i don't think they would
frame it this way. But in this conversation, it dawned on me that so many of the strategies I'm seeing on TikTok end up being kind of jobs to be done strategy. So... Cal AI is a great example. They've been blowing up lately and they pay a lot of influencers. There's a little bit of mixed messaging on Twitter. People act as if it's fully organic, but they actually pay a ton of creators to create this.
It's a different form of paid marketing when you pay UGC creators. And I think even they're putting money behind some of that as well. But when you look at some of their ads, the ads are brilliant because... It's a TikTok like day in the life of or different things. I mean, there's so many different formats they've used. But one of the ones I saw.
They just incorporated Cal AI into their normal routine. And so the job to be done is like, you know, wanting to track your food, but tracking your food is a hassle. And so they show them like going to a workout and then they're coming home and they're eating a meal and then they just take a photo of the meal and it tells you the calories and then they move on with their day. It's almost like it's not an ad because it's in passing.
that they just happen to show it but it ends up being so compelling because We all know if you're trying to lose weight, you really should track your food, but tracking food is a hassle. And to your point, what's the differentiation of Cal AI? Take a picture. And so they're very almost subtly working it into this TikTok that can go viral and get more attention because it's not an ad.
But then they're showing the job to be done in such a powerful way because instead of it being this big hassle, pulling out the app and logging your food, you just take a picture. I think that's a great example of, you know, again, I don't think they would, they didn't sit down and think through the jobs to be done framework.
But it works out that way. And by sitting down and thinking through the JavaScript framework, you can start creating those kind of ads that really do more directly show off the differentiation of the app.
and how it satisfies those jobs to be done in a better way. I think if you were like, okay, ignore the job to be done framework a different way of almost thinking about it where you're doing this accidental thing which it sounds like they're doing is they've realized what that aha moment is Like, what is the moment that people realize this is something I need to achieve whatever they're trying to achieve?
And they're just working out like, how can I bring that forward in the journey and to help bring it across it. And the reason it's working is because it's speaking to that, you have to be done with like, hey, I want to be able to track it with ease. But it's just bringing that almost forward. And that's what I was also saying about like.
show don't tell rather than having an ad saying like we do this it's so easy it takes two seconds I think what we need to remember is there's so much emotions, like even if it's not an emotional driver leading them to use it, there's always emotions around these things. Like you can say like, oh, I just want to learn Spanish because I'm getting married in Spain next month and it's helpful to speak Spanish. But there's always that emotional drive with this insecure moment.
and that feeling stupid that you can't say something, and that fear of mispronouncing. And I think, like, you might get people on board just speaking to the functional. But I think you hit a certain ceiling with that and you get past that ceiling by understanding the emotional drivers behind a job to be done and really speaking to that and finding different ways to bring that across.
And the thing is, it's like, you know, you said they were paying those people, but those people were probably also just being like, okay, how can I show this? Let me show it as part of my life. And it's actually ironically, it's so easy to almost find these different angles and stuff. when you do it that way because you don't have to come up with it yourself You look at your customers, you speak to your customers.
And they'll give you all these ideas. And like, whenever a brand also says, like, I'm running out of ideas or like angles with the ad side, like, yes, there's different ways you can ask AI to do it. But I think the most powerful ones are just watching and learning from your customers and seeing how they're doing. yeah totally you said something in there that i thought was really fascinating
is bringing the aha moment into the ads. And again, I wanna get to the activation and onboarding and stuff. But that is, in a way, you know, starting the onboarding process and getting that aha moment into the ad is so powerful. And I had never thought of it quite that way before. It's like if you have an aha moment. can you work that into the ad in some way that kind of
brings people into the app already excited, already motivated, already kind of understanding that aha moment. Because I think in a way ladder failed you because you only realized you needed them when you went through the whole onboarding. And it was the same issue I have with Tractive. Like, I only realized I really needed them when I'd basically had the same issue multiple times and exhausted all other options.
But if they'd understood, like, what was the app you were using before that? And see, that's what's funny, though. The app I was using is Fitbob. What's funny is I never saw in the latter ad. I think that was my problem, is that I talked to the CEO. I heard about the app, but for some reason, I never got ladder ads.
and i don't use instagram a ton but i use it enough that i should have seen an ad so for whatever reason i didn't ever see an ad and so maybe that was the missing piece was that their ads would have convinced me but i never saw one And maybe that was intentional. Maybe you weren't the like primary jobs to be done that they're focusing on because I do feel like they're also really heavily going after this kind of like the female audience that.
And that might just be the ads because of the ads I'm seeing. I'm assuming this, but I. female audience that's very focused on like getting stronger without you know getting overly buff and like feeling more confident around it but i think it's like if they could understand like there's a reason why you switch and i think understanding also like what's that feeling underneath like what would lead you to switch
Are you actually missing what's not fulfilling you with your current solution? And that's often one of the key questions I ask people. It's like, okay, what were you using before this? And it doesn't have to be an app. because you can also track calories manually yourself and write them down. You can also make your own workout plans. You can also go to a personal trainer or use a YouTube video. So it's like...
What were you using before? And like, what's the reason why you're not happy with it? What's leading you to consider something else? Or like, if you weren't considering something else, what was the reason that when you saw something else that you were like, you know what, let me try this instead?
And I think, yeah, that's why that, like, once you really understand that, then you can work out, like, okay, what's, there's the aha moment that keeps you on board, but there might also be another aha moment that helps you realize it's time to switch. because most of the time people aren't you know they might not be 100 happy but they're not actively looking and that's where i think that like aha moment bringing that in earlier
And that's why I was like, with Lado, it's like, if you had seen an ad, it was almost like, I think they do quite heavily like a web-to-app funnel, if I'm not mistaken. But if it wasn't a web-to-app funnel.
like you almost want to think about like okay with the ad with the app store where are all these there's so many moments before you get to the onboarding already that you can start to, you know, create that feeling that they understand you and that get that almost I have, like, this is actually what I need.
Because with the competition there is now, it's never been easier to make an app. I think you said that in one of the recent podcasts. It's so easy to make an app these days. You can't wait until... they're in the app to get them to that moment. I think that's also what's really changed in the last five to ten years is there's more and more pressure for us to bring that in earlier.
But when we do, there's more spending power than before because that's the other thing that you saw in the state of subscription apps is the amount people are spending. seems to also be going up if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, since we turned this into a ladder product market fit seminar. Sorry, yeah. I haven't even used the app. That's the worst part. It's so unintentional.
I've only used it once because it was just last week. But in talking through that, it made me realize that the reason I didn't use it. was because I've had lower back issues since my early 20s. And what I liked about FitBot was that I was in control of the exercises. I built my own plans and I built them around knowing which exercises trigger my back and being careful to not do things where I know my form or whatever. So the aha moment for me in ladder.
And I think this is a recent addition. And so this is maybe why the aha moment was that they actually make it now so easy and honestly, even better than FitBot to customize the workout to where you can hit the right muscle group with like. different exercises. And it's really easy, like the user experience of switching out the exercises to accommodate your needs.
is really really good and that was the aha moment was when i was able to like go through the workout and like in like seconds customize it so i don't you know it's like i don't know if they could
job to be done for enough people. I mean, maybe I'll send this episode to Greg, the CEO, and tell him they should maybe do some experiments with the job to be done of people who you know have specific needs and are worried that a workout app is going to force them to do exercises that hurt them or you know problematic whereas now the app is so good at being able to just go through and make those customizations and i think that kind of touches on another key part of like
We'd like a job to be done. Like, logically, we think everyone just wants to achieve that. And if we show them they can achieve that, that they'll do that. You had the concern up front, will this hurt my back? You know, will I be able to create something that I need? You were like, okay, great. Let me try this out. That's the other thing I always ask people. It's like, okay, what almost stopped you from signing up? What kind of concerns did you have?
And sometimes people don't know it. And then I ask them, have you recommended this to friends and family? And they'll say like, you know, yeah, I recommended it to this person. I ask them, what questions did they ask you?
Because they'll forget what they might have been worried about because they want to confirm like, hey, no, I made the right choice. I wasn't concerned. But they'll remember the things that other people ask them, what came up, because then it's like uncomfortable. It's like, oh, I... encourage you to do this and you're basically like will I actually do this did I actually know if it did that or not because sometimes you can't answer those questions and
So I think that's also a key part of it. It's like, again, like it gives you so much content when you understand these jobs to be done because you don't only just speak to like showing the transformation, but you can also then lower in the funnel, like speak to like, hey, all these different concerns. Don't do certain exercises, no stress. You can customize it completely to what you need to prevent yourself getting injured.
There's so many different ways you can then bring that in and create also content around that. But that's why I preach those interviews so much because I'm like... You only realize this stuff by speaking and having these conversations. That's such a great one too, of asking... Those questions of what stopped you. You know, if people don't end up in the app, I guess this is the more like user research kind of things where you're doing user research with people who.
have never used the app, didn't see an ad. And then you just go through and you walk them through the process and then ask those kind of questions. Or how do you get at these blocking points? And I guess you could do it in the app. at different stages of the funnel where people drop off the funnel, figuring out why they dropped off the funnel. But yeah, how do you figure out those like blockers?
I'd probably combine it with something else that, you know, we're talking about these huge apps right now. And the reality is that most apps don't have a huge database always to work with, especially if they're just starting out.
And I work a lot with startups, so I really know and feel that pain. So I would say like, if you want to like speak to people who've never got that far and like do those kind of like interviews with them, I would look at like what other solutions fulfill your jobs to be done.
and then recruit users for example using a platform and i have no affiliate with them but like for example userinterviews.com or respondent.io like use a platform like that to recruit users who have used similar solutions in solving the job to be done and then asking them a question about like okay which of these is a pain point for you and just give them a load of like bogus options in there that they don't that you're not asking them like
hey, have you struggled with this pain point? Yes or no, because everyone would just say yes then, but like making it more difficult for them to work out what's the right answer. And then you can basically indeed do like those interviews with those people who... have never even converted, might not even know you yet and first what I tend to do is
work out their job to be done, again, confirm, figure out what solutions are they using, what do they like and dislike, where have they looked for alternatives, and then do exactly what you said, like a user test with them and walking through.
it and then getting them to talk out loud through their experience of it to see like okay where are they getting the hesitations what questions are they having what's not clear that tends to be something i do slightly later in the process because I want to first work out like are we on the right track with this and then once we've kind of like validated this is the messaging, this is the angle, we've improved our onboarding around this.
Have we actually got it across? Where are the places that we're still not working out? Because you can do it before that for sure too. But I think it's so much more powerful to do it once you've actually understood like what you're trying to bring across and you've refined that initially.
to really take it then to the next level. Because again, I'm always thinking like, people won't want to do five rounds of this because everyone's always you know doesn't don't have enough time to do this but it is very impactful Yeah, but these are the things that make or break.
I mean, just talking through this is just a reminder to me. I've done some user testing in the past, but I have not done it recently. And I'm not talking to users in my side project app. Why? Because it's hard. I have a full-time job. It's like I squeeze in a few hours a week, if that. But these are the things that make her brave. This is how you grow and become a much better, stronger app is not just.
your own individual product intuition, but it's actually talking to users. It's a fantastic reminder. And for those folks listening and thinking like, I don't have time, this is too hard. It's like, well.
If you're struggling and you're spending... hours and hours and hours and hundreds of hours on product development you're spending hundreds of hours on marketing you're spending hundreds of hours on other things like this is going to supercharge all of those things going out and talking to users and guess it's hard but you got to figure it out it will also really save you time because you'll end up doing less features you'll remove things that aren't helping people on that journey like
You end up refining your product roadmap so much because of it versus trying to test everything. You'll get really a lot smarter in terms of testing. And the challenge I'm going to give you for this is because it's a web app, right? It's helping people. You can literally go out to a park.
and like offer to buy them a coffee from a local cafe or go into a cafe and do it there i had an app that's like a 24 7 that app i love working with dog brands because i have a dog so another dog example but it basically you can just send in like a short video short audio note if you're having an issue with your dog
or cat or whatever pet and they'll get back to you within minutes and let you know like hey do you actually need to go to a vet what should you do so if you if your dog eats something in the park You don't have to rush immediately most of the time, but if you don't know that, you kind of like do it out of panic and spend hundreds.
for this app like i basically went into my dog park and just asked a lot of people there who were walking their dogs we walked the dog together strangers i'd never met before and just ask them to test the app. And I said, I'll give them a year free of it as a thank you, like a year subscription for free as a thank you for it. And I just asked them to go through it, sign up and just send them one random question they have on their mind about their pet. And if they didn't know, I'd give them one.
and i just go through that flow and i find so many issues and so many things where it just wasn't resonating bringing things across It was clunky. It wasn't working. And it took me just like an hour or two of walking around the park with my dog.
to get like so many insights i just put my phone record on like it was very like low-key nothing fancy you know so that's the other thing i would say like if you say you don't have time for this next time you're in a cafe just strike up a conversation it's scary for the first two times
But I promise you, people are actually like half the time find it really intriguing and just like kind of go along with it. I've done it even for like non-apps, like a pension grant to just talk to random people cafe, bought a load of people coffees.
and learned so much from all these random people about how the site was performing. I'm sure lots of folks will be mortified by that idea, but maybe you can hire somebody who is more outgoing and have them... video record the conversation or something but i did want to move on to activation so we spend a ton of time talking about you know getting the messaging right for ads for screenshots for that initial messaging but then how do you translate that into the activation moment
And how do you iterate on that to really dial in the activation using jobs to be done? Yeah, so... I think when it comes to the activation side, it's hopefully if you've already integrated this before, you've already kind of built that trust of like, hey, you're going to have this at a moment. But it's like, okay, how do you now bring this across? And how do you start to like build a habit around this?
And I think what's really key with this is understanding what could prevent them from actually consistently using it and how can you make it easier or funner to actually do it. Because I think for a lot of jobs to be done, We don't, we say we want to do one thing. And this is something, again, we talked about in that painkiller vitamin webinar bit. It's like, we say we want to, you know, practice gratitude, but do we actually take the time to do it?
We say we want to learn a language, but do we actually take the time to do it? And so working out what those kind of like barriers of them achieving it in the past, like what's the reasons they failed to achieve that job to be done in the past can then help you work out like, what is it that I need to integrate into that?
And that's why I think gamification often does come in and making it even more fun or making it more engaging to basically achieve that and have that sense of progress. And so I think your whole activation is about giving them that feeling of progress and getting there. so like i was doing some work with like in gratitude app and like One of the ideas we talked about is like, well, why don't we do like a three-day challenge potentially in the onboarding already?
And then actually have them already do that first gratitude practice so that they feel like... I've already achieved something. I've made progress already. And I think that's why a lot of these language apps will immediately try to get you to do your first lesson and just make it as small as possible. So I think bringing it into the activation, it's like, what is the...
tiniest step you can get them to do to make them feel like they're making progress from A to B, even if it's a false sense of progression. With a workout, you might not immediately be able to work out in that moment. But is the feeling that you have a plan in place, that you have clarity? You know, does that almost like give you that takeoff feeling? And I'm not talking about like just streets or that because I think they can be quite flawed as a mechanism, but that's a different topic.
But it's that feeling that you progress, that you've done this tiny thing, whether even if it's just planning it, like what gives people the feeling that they're moving towards achieving that job to be done, even if it's a false sense of progress, but it's just giving them that feeling of. Let's help you get there. Yeah, you keep saying false sense of progress. But honestly, I mean, I think this is one of those like subtle secondary jobs to be done.
What's one of the jobs to be done of a gym membership? Part of the job to be done is making you feel guilty that you're not using it. And paying $50, $60 a month and not ever going is part of the job to be done because that's highly motivating. I'm spending money. I'm wasting money by not going to the gym. So even like you were saying with the fitness app or even the gratitude app, I think that's really cool how.
In the onboarding, you could even ask the questions and this would be, you know, real direct progress. What are you grateful for today? It's almost like you can page by page step them through. What is the gratitude practice? And then at the end, like, congrats, you've done it. You've successfully completed day one. Now move on to day two. But you can work it in in a more subtle way. And then, you know, like you said, with the health and fitness app.
The plan is progress, like having a plan in place, being ready to work out. versus just showing up and like having to figure it out on the spot. I mean, again, bring this back to me and louder, but that was part of my problem with FitBod was that they do have an automatic feature that. automatically generates a workout but i never liked the workout so then every time i would go work out i would go through and have to customize and customizing the workout would take a long time
So then I created some preset workouts, but then I only had two preset workouts and I'd alternate between them. And then I got bored of those two workouts. And so having that plan in place, and that's what's now the killer job to be done about ladder. is that I have a... Super experienced, super talented, pre-selecting all the workouts for the week. All I have to do is show up.
And then it only takes me a couple of seconds to customize it. And then I'm on and going. And so having that plan in place is part of the job to be done of a fitness app, of a meditation app, of a lot of these apps. There probably are examples of false progress as well, but I think progress toward the goal is progress.
So yeah, help people along the way and then celebrate that they're made some progress. Yeah, I think I'm just trying to think of like the fact so I work a lot with wellness and like eco-friendly kind of brand so it's a bit easier in that space to have immediate progress but i am also very conscious that there's also different types of apps where the end goal where you want to get to might be a bit
bigger or you might not be able to do it at the moment of downloading so let's say you've got an app that's helping you with doing your tax return you might download it with like hey i really need to do this but i don't don't need to do it right now but in your mind
doing the job is doing the tax return like and that's what you need to work out is like what does progress look like for them and you can then reshape it because like you're saying like hey i appreciate that having a plan is part of it But not everyone might see or understand that. So I think it's like trying to work out with like that initial moment, because I think my activation is longer than that, just that initial moment. But I think it's so important with that initial step of like.
showing them like hey you are one step closer like I think LinkedIn also does this really well it's like where they show you like your profiles x percent complete so it's not a huge task of doing the whole profile but it's I've already filled in a bit, you know, I'm leavening up, I'm improving it step by step. With my tax return, I might not be able to do it yet, but maybe...
I've got a clear idea and I've completed step one because I know which documents I need. Or I've set a reminder, like a push notification that I'm going to do in this moment.
put it in my calendar like i think it's just trying to figure out like if you can't get them to do it in that moment because a lot of people download apps on the go you know they see it they think it's interesting they're like oh i'll try that out sometime How can you still like get them in that few minutes that you might have while they're commuting or doing whatever? get them to feel like this is actually going to help me achieve what I want to achieve.
And then the retention side of it is really interesting because that's what you also just mentioned. It's like you got bored. And I think that's what we also forget. It's like our jobs to be done and our knowledge, they evolve over time. I've been using a recipe app for a long time to work out recipes, but they just got repetitive. They got similar. It didn't feel as inspiring anymore. And that actually led me to try out a few other different recipe apps.
I got to a point where I didn't feel inspired the way I did before, or maybe my cooking is also like evolved in like, hey, I want to try more new things or do different things. Like I love to cook anyway. I wanted something that was like challenging me in a way that doesn't anymore. And I think we're going to use a different fitness app for once. Sorry, Lada.
Really happy to still try it out. But sweat is a really good example of this because I use them just when I was starting to get into working out. been running a bit before that but like I'd not been like very consistent in it and I really wanted to see a difference in it and they had all these programs that each time I could go from like beginner, intermediate, advanced and really feel like I was getting to a next level.
And I think like that's, if we go from like activation flowing into the retention side, I think it's also like working out like how is their job to be done changing over time. And what do they need to get to the next level? What is it that's going to lose them? And that's where your trend customers are so important to speak to them.
Because if they'd spoken to you and asked them like, hey, what's going on? You'd be like, I'm really bored of this. I just don't feel motivated anymore. And the irony is they probably had the content to keep you engaged.
they weren't making it easier being conscious and like proactive in like preventing that yeah i mean and that's actually a good example again to bring it back to ladder is that i had actually downloaded the app and gone through the onboarding i don't know it's six or nine months ago In the intervening time is when they added that feature to be able to customize the workout.
but i don't think i ever got an email saying hey you can now customize workouts and ladder and so that's a good example of the like retention and reactivation is that don't forget as you add things and create new features and refine things there are people who have previously used the app
who may come back or may get activated for the first time by showing them that you now solve this better in this new way or you now solve this other problem that they had at the time but you didn't solve that problem so yeah it's a powerful framework for retention as well and reactivation We promise this is not an ad for Ladder. Neither of us are sponsored by Ladder. But the irony is we've done one workout between the two of us on Ladder.
But yeah, I think it's definitely like a great way to always to get people back. It's like, this is why I think it's so important to have a way within your app to identify jobs to be done. So even if you're not being direct and asking the question. knowing specific content or knowing specific actions.
or parts that people will use if they have a specific job to be done. It means that when you then speak to churned customers of that job to be done, you understand why they churned, what were they missing, what never spoke to them if they never even activated. You can then use that to also segment and push people hopefully back in. And ideally, you know, like it's easier to keep them on board initially. But if you haven't managed to do that or you're still evolving in how you speak to it.
or you've expanded the jobs to be done you're working with, like Lada seems to have done, then you can basically still go back, like you said, and pull people back in and show them like, hey, now we do. get it like you know we let you down with this we get it it wasn't good enough and it's a physical product but i saw a um laundry detergent that like Basically, people weren't happy with the packaging of it.
and they sponsored it was called tallow and ash it's an eco-friendly laundry detergent in the uk they sponsored a post about saying we're sorry about our previous packaging it wasn't good enough and it was such a weird thing to sponsor and like do as an ad it was just an organic post probably on their social that they've just boosted up boosted to get more reach but i actually thought it was genius because it was basically saying like hey sorry we weren't good enough for what you needed
you know you came to us because you wanted to reduce waste but then it was making a mess and you don't want to make a mess when you're doing your laundry And like, just being very direct about that, like, hey, we're sorry, we weren't fulfilling your job to be done. We weren't helping you in the best possible way. But now we are.
And this is how we're going to do it and make it better for you. There's so much more we could talk through about retention and reactivation with jobs to be done. But I did want to touch on monetization before we wrap up. So how do you think about jobs to be done in relation to monetization? Yeah, so I think one of the key parts is what we started with is like, who's actually spending the most?
Because you're going to have customers with a high LTV and you're going to have customers with a low LTV. And if we look at like the fact that like cost of acquisitions are going up and up and up, the people who have that high LTV understanding like what jobs to be done have a high LTV versus those don't.
should be determining who you're focusing on. And as a result, that's actually also helping you improve your monetization because you're basically focusing more on those high value customers and serving them well versus trying to serve the loudest voice.
I think that's one side of it. Another side of it is that often I see like brands shaping their pricing around users and having different packages based on like hey what are you trying to achieve what job to be done do you have because for some jobs to be done like you'll see that they need all of your features and with other ones they only need part of it
And they should have that option then to basically, if those are both strong jobs, then they both have a lot of potential to spend, but one might be spending, you know, slightly more over a shorter period of time versus slightly less over a longer period of time.
You can also look at, like, how can we shape our different, like, package options to really speak to them and make sure that, like, people can figure out what's the right one for them. If we look at, like, Memo, I think people are sick of that. may be sick of our working out or they're really inspired to work out because of this. If we look at Mimo at a coding app, there's people who want to learn to code just for fun.
And there's people who want to learn to code because they really want to become a developer. Now, I know from my conversation with Katja, their previous head of marketing and growth, that that first audience is more valuable. But they do have, like, a different, like, tiers and, like, if I'm not mistaken, in terms of, like, how actively you use it, how much support you get.
what features do you need? Because someone who's just casually playing around with it might not want as much, but they might still be a valuable user. So I think that's the other one is like seeing like, do jobs to be done have different like requirements and different like... also like amounts that they're willing to pay so that you're not just blanket pricing everything but that you're adjusting it according to what they need.
And also according to what they're comparing you to, because I think that's why I was going to go back to Lara. I'll leave it. I had another latter example. But yeah, I think it's working out like what will allow you to also charge them the right amount that they're willing to spend on that job to be done.
And I think that's that final part of it is like when you become a painkiller, so an unmissable app in their life that they really need and want to use constantly, people are less price sensitive. They aren't going to care as much when you increase things.
They aren't going to be as difficult around it because they see you as something irreplaceable. And so if you've made yourself irreplaceable, you're going to see those conversions rates go up. You're going to see that you're going to be able to put through price increases. so much easier because you become such an integral part of their lives. This is something we've talked about on the podcast here and there, but I do think this idea of being able to charge more.
for users who find more value is where things are going to go next with subscription apps. And again, we already see this in the biggest apps. Tinder, creating a $500 a month subscription tier. And we've talked about it at times that if you're early, don't complicate things with multiple subscription tiers, like focus on the higher value job to be done and just, you know, stay focused. Tiering is such a powerful thing when the time is right. too early you're probably just gonna like
screw up and divide your focus and complicate the product at a time where you just need to be moving forward and moving as fast as you possibly can. But It is such a powerful thing that, like you said, once you're solving a really painful thing in a really elegant way. Your pricing power is so much more than you even realize. But then on the flip side, I think what's happening to a lot of apps as well is that they're charging so much.
that it only makes sense for the users who are perfectly aligned with that value prop. And by introducing a lower tier, You can retain users who don't need those other features. who don't find it as valuable. This is something I'm actually, after advising not to start it too early, I'm actually right now considering, even though my weather app made 100K last year, it's like... It's showing signs of product market fit. It's headed the right direction.
But I've been charging $40 a year because we have really expensive data. But what I've realized is that the job to be done for a lot of my users isn't that expensive data. I can just use the cheap... apple weather data and create a lower price tier at 20 a year instead of 40 a year which is pretty expensive for a weather app I don't know if I'm going to do it right away, but I will eventually create two separate tiers where those more advanced, like multiple data sources.
is in the more expensive tier. And then the kind of more simple just use Apple weather data will be the lower tier. And that will also even be a great retention plan for those who, oh, it's a great app, but I don't want to pay $40. Well, hey, here's.
So depending on where you're at in the stage of your app, you should be thinking like, what are those jobs to be done that are more valuable? And is there an opportunity to... add another tier and and when you're solving new problems that's a great time to think about that as well is if you create a really big new feature that solves a new job to be done or solves an existing job to be done in a much much much better way that's a great opportunity to introduce that higher price tier
where you bring a lot of the users who are already paying and increase that revenue per user by introducing this new feature. And it's also a lot easier than just raising the price across the board. It's like, hey, we're giving you this brand new thing. but it's going to cost more. There's so many ways to apply jobs to be done across the app.
monetization, activation, messaging, ads. Yeah, it's been so fun talking through all this and really appreciate you coming on the podcast to talk about all this. Yeah, likewise. And I think you're right. it's not a matter of like can it impact it it's like thinking of the right stage for you and I think like that's like if there's one like overarching takeaway for it is like when you're using jobs to be done like apply it in a way that's right for you at the current stage you're at.
If you're starting out, focus on working now, working out, like, what is that job to be done? What are the hesitations? What are they using right now? what is their perceived value of solving this problem use that to work out that initial pricing because it's not about how much it costs you to like sort that data end of the day like if they don't see value in it like you said like not every user does
They don't care. They don't care what your costs are. They really don't. How much do they value this problem being solved? How much have they spent on it? And how can you basically make them feel like they're resonating? If you're at a later stage and you already have an existing user base and you're already quite good at speaking to a certain job to be done, use it as a way to identify an additional audience.
Like if you've already really felt like you've done everything for that initial audience, but you're struggling to grow because you've kind of got the most out of your first niche. use it as a way to figure out like okay what are other jobs we've done that I'm already kind of serving maybe I don't have a perfect yet but I could be serving it more and maybe that will be the inspiration for a separate price tag maybe it'll be an inspiration to
add in a certain feature or maybe it'll be an inspiration to actually remove certain fluff that isn't serving any of them that will make you more applicable to them because you can make sure that they get closer and quicker to that aha moment. So I think it's really trying to work out like where are the issues and
There are signals if you don't understand this. If you're asking your team, like, you know, what is it we do? And, you know, who's our target audience? And everyone's answering completely different things. If you're struggling to like convert them and activate them, but you're seeing that once they get it, once they really get it, they're retaining. that's usually a signal that, hey, you haven't got that quite right and you're not speaking to their jobs to be done enough early on.
because you're having to work so hard to get them to that next point. And that's often also a great thing then, because it means like, hey, fundamentally, we've got something here, but we just need to figure out how to bring it across. And that's where mostly done is nothing more than a tool, but it's a very powerful way to bring that across.
Yeah, well, I think that's a fantastic place to wrap up. It is such a great tool across the entire lifecycle from messaging to activation to retention to monetization. Anything you want to share as we're wrapping up? No, I think that definitely helps you move on with it. If anyone wants more content on this. I'm regularly writing for Revenue Cat, so there's every month a few new blog posts, and I regularly come back to one of my favorite topics.
And you can also check me out on LinkedIn. I share also a lot of tips and examples there as well. Who knows, maybe Ladder will be one of my newest examples after this. Yeah, great follow on LinkedIn. If you're not already following Daphne on LinkedIn, she posts a lot of great stuff. So definitely follow her there as well.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was really fun chatting through all this. And I think there's so many great takeaways for people to, you know, we shared a lot of examples and hopefully, you know, people listening can take those examples and reframe them into their own app of like. you know how do you think about those people like me who didn't see the right ad and how do you find those different solutions
Not everybody has a fitness app. We talked about Ladder too much on the podcast, but hopefully people can generalize some of those examples and think through how this works out in their own app. It's the most powerful way to understand it because it brings the human aspect back to it all. And it's when you realize, hey, I've been in these moments myself and I can identify with.
how someone's feeling even if it's a different type of app it helps you see those moments for your own app so i think examples are the way to go with this because i think that's the issue why a lot of people have heard the phrase they know like oh yeah we should focus on jobs too done we should work on our messaging but it's a harder thing to fully get wrap your head around and i actually find like
The more examples I give, the more you start to see what I like to say, life through job to be done glasses, because you start to think of like, what's the underlying job to be done for everything you're doing and also other people doing. It ruins it slightly, but it's also very helpful because it helps you work it out better for yourself. So yeah, and there's loads of practical tips and examples for your ads as well of what you can be doing there for improving your onboarding.
So definitely take that along to and apply it to your own setup. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me. This is so much fun. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening. If you have a minute, please leave a review in your favorite podcast player. You can also stop by chat.subclub.com to join our private community.