Who killed JFK?

covers conspiracy theories. And we are podcasting on who killed JFK the day before the anniversary of that Fateful Day anniversary, right fiftieth anniversary November nine in Dallas. And so you made a joke that Matt was just gonna be over there the whole time going shia. Really uh huh. Yeah, it wasn't a mob. Yeah, three tramps whatever. I like the three trans want It's it's ridiculous, but it's my

favorite one. Yeah, I got some good stuff on that um In two thousand three, Josh An ABC News poll came out ten years ago, seventy of Americans believe the assassination of John F. Kennedy was part of a broader plot. What percentage believe that and believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Well, so it's the thing. It's it will not die. No, it won't. It never will, I don't think. Well, it's very much entrenched in popular culture as well too,

Like even it's become a parody of itself as well. Yeah, you know, was just the idea that there's this outstanding question that will never be put to rest. Yeah, Like Lone Gunmen and Grassy Knoll, like all these are almost like buzz terms. Now, Yeah, the Lone Gunmen, they made an appearance in the X Files, they were recurring characters. Trio of Guys, Uh and the Misfits have a song about the afk assassination. Um magic Bullet but there's a

band called Magic Bullets. There's all sorts of stuff. Um, So let's get into this because I think our colleague Jonathan's Tricklin of tech Stuff did a really good job of like handling what could have easily been like a fifty page quagmire. And he basically says like, but here's all the facts, and this is why the what's on the surface is probably the likeliest thing to happen and happened.

We should see U a little bit here. There are hundreds of books written about various conspiracies, uh conspiracy theories on the JFK assassination, and we are we don't have like eighteen episodes to dedicate to this, so this will be a skimming of the topic. UM. I don't want anyone to be like, oh, Josh and Chuck are gonna get down the bottom of this, like people, that's some people's life's were, you know, dedicated to this? Yeah. I mean, if we're anything, we're dilettants. Every week we go from

one subject to the next. That is true. So I guess let's begin at the beginning, just to get it all out on the table. Okay, all right, Okay, so Chucky. On November eighth, nineteen sixty three, UM, the Secret Service found the proposed route for the president Presidential Murtorcaide's visit to Dallas. And there was a reason the president was coming to Dallas. It was a very good reason. And UM, this is why he was in Texas, why he was

trying to basically sort of unite the Democratic Party. Um, he was meeting with with his vice president and the governor of Texas, and there was some bickering going on within the party and he basically wanted to He's trying to get reelected, is what he was doing, right, But that was a big part of it. But it is true. Governor Connelly Um and Senator Richard Yarborough were publicly feuding.

Um and they're both Democrats, so basically their great father was going to come and make peace with them among them publicly tour the state of Texas to help him self get reelected, but also to show Texas like, hey, the Texas Democrats are all family. Here. Family fights sometimes, but we're still all family and we still have the same grand vision. I know, I'm a Catholic from New England, but we're all the same. It me nine Texan. Uh so, okay, where are we? They find out the route from love

Field to um Daly Plaza. They publicize that in the newspapers. Everyone knew about it because you know people, they wanted people to come out and wave like they did on November nine. The route was published in the papers and

the published one Yes. And then on November twenty ninety three, that fateful day, Air Force one lands at love Field the President gets in his presidential limousine and they started making their way toward Deeley Plaza, along with Governor Connelly and his wife and of course Jackie and then a couple of secret service dudes. That's in the one car. In a car behind them is lb J Senator Yarborough

and some other secret service guys. Right, that's right. So they're apparently as they were headed toward Deely Plausa, they got delayed because um, Kennedy stopped and uh kind of soaked up the people waving and cheering and all that and gave gave some back to him. Yeah, and so they were a little bit delayed, um getting to Deely Plaza. But when they did, at about twelve thirty, as they were arriving in the presidential motorcade, a shot rang out

and then there was two more shots at least. Yeah, and uh with the second shot, they think the president he threw his hands up to his neck and Jackie leaned over to kind of like say what's going on, and then all of a sudden, the back right side of the President's head blew off. Yes, it is very graphic. If you see the slowed down enhanced Zapruder film on YouTube today. Very affecting too. It's really sad. Yeah, it's terribly sad. And this was not even a part of

our generation. Like this kind of stuff still makes people like our parents breakdown sometimes, you know. So that was thirty Within about anywhere between four and eight seconds, at least three shots were fired, one missed probably the second and third one hit the president first in the back of the neck, exited his throat, and the third one blew his head off. Yeah, let's talk about the that magic bullet since we should go ahead and clear that up. H it hit I guess this is a second bullet

that passed through his throat. It went on to hit Governor Connelly in the back, but in his armpit. Yeah, below the right armpit. Um exited below the right nipple. Um then hit his wrist that was in his lap, and then continue through the wrist through his left thigh. And that's why they call it the magic bullet. And if you've seen Oliver Stone's movie, they kind of, you know, m make fun of it in court like that is

one magic bullet. That's where it got the name back into the left back into the left Remember the Seinfeld thing, yeah with the spit with Keith hernandez. Um. But and I remember my brother in law, the Marine, explaining to me years ago that bullets tumble and can do some really crazy things, like he's seen it happen on firing ranges and and pus. Also, this is a very very powerful bullet. Yeah. It was a six point five millimeter bullet, which is basically like a little um howits her shell? Yeah,

it's huge and it travels very quickly. Yeah, and um, they have done test that, even though it seems unlikely, that show that it is possible that a bullet can change directions and do kind of crazy things once it starts hitting bone and other things. Yeah. So um that was, like you said, the second bullet most likely. Um, Within just a few seconds after the first shot, Kennedy is lying there, um motionless. Jackie's like reaching back across the trunk of the car. Yeah, trying to get help from

a secret Service agent who I believe jumps into the car. Yeah. Well actually they they think that she was picked up part of his brain tissue. Okay, I heard that before too. Yeah, I looked into that today, but I was watching the repruter film and it looks it looked to me like she was reaching back like help. But I've heard that before as well. Well. Apparently she was quoted um by I think Connolly's wife and one other person at the time of saying he's dead and look, I have I

have his brain in my hand. Um. She I read her testimony for the Warran Commission and she says she didn't even remember any of that. But whether or not that's true, it's awful. So when she was trying to hold his head together on the way to the hospital, Yeah, So in the car behind them, uh, a Secret Service agent pounces on LBJ and like throws him onto the seat and lays on top of him. Um. I think his name is Rufus young Blood, the CIA or the

Secret Service agent. The motor kid just takes off to the hospital park Memorial Parkland Parkland Memorial and um again, the the motor kid inner dally Plase at twelve thirty. By one pm, the President has been pronounced dead at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas. It was just a few miles away. Um, so that was one pm. That was

one pm. Um, I guess we should talk about the grassy Knoll real quick because a lot of people, um have said, you know, a shot have There were a lot of misleading and conflicting accounts, which is where a lot of the trouble started. I witnesses not collaborating stories. Uh. The acoustics at Dealey Plaza were funky because of all the buildings and it's three side buildings and then one side like Grassy Knoll. Basically yeah, so like, where did the shot come from? I thought it came from over here.

From the sounds, um, it was basically pretty tough to pinpoint. And the Grassy Knoll there was a police officer named Clyde hey Good that there are pictures of him, you know, running towards the Grassy Knoll, and a lot of folks thought, hey, he's running like towards a suspect, when in fact, he was running toward another police officer to you know, say, hey, what should we do? I guess? So the I guess.

The way it's been explained away over the years is the the acoustics and the fact that that cop was running towards the Grassy Knoll has made some people think that there was more than one shooter, and another shooter was on the grassy knoll. That's right. The official line is that that's not the case, though, that's right. Um,

so one PM, the president's pronounced dead. At two thirty eight, UM Johnson, Jackie Kennedy, UH, Johnson's staff, pretty much everybody was back on Air Force one and UM they called Bobby Kennedy to ask what to do and to tell him what had happened. And Bobby Kennedy said, you need to swear Johnson and before you guys leave the ground. So they found a judge, brought her on board, and she swore Johnson in as president, and then they took

off and flew back to Washington. Very famous photo, yeah, with him being sworn in on board Air Force one, right with Jackie on NASA's or Jackie Kennedy's face. Just like the fact that she was able to stand is pretty amazing. Apparently they turned her in such a way so that the blood stains were an apparent in the photograph. Man, I don't know if it was Air Force one yet

it was. UM, alright, so where are we? Uh? Four minutes after the shooting, Dallas police uh looked at the Texas School Book Depository building and said, hey, that might have been where this came from. It's a pretty prime location for a sniper. And there was an eyewitness named Howard Brennan who saw a figure in the window and gave a description which fit Lee Harvey Oswald. So this this one dude actually saw him in the window on the sixth floor. Pretty believable that you could see someone

from that range. The guy said, I knew it was Oswald all along. So there was a cop that was in the book depository within two minutes of the shooting. Yeah, Marian Baker was kind of took the initiative to go ahead and get in there. So we went in there and he met up with the superintendent of the building, a guy named Truly, and they started um walking up the steps and at the second floor they came upon Lee Harvey Oswald who was leaving. He was leaving. Truly

vouched for Oswald, and Oswald was allowed to leave. And the reason Truly vouched for Oswald's because just a couple of weeks before, about a month before, Oswald had gotten a job at that book depository, so he checked out

as far as Truly was concerned. The officer who was with Truly said, well, okay, and they kept looking and a few minutes after that, lieutenant showed up and took over the crime scene and they started scouring the building and on the sixth floor they found the sniper's nest that's right with UM three empty cartridges and the gun UH telescopic rifle, UH telescopic site, and a bolt action rifle. And it was pretty much a no brainer at that point,

or at least on the surface. This is where it came from, right, So, um, after Oswald left his uh left the book depository, he went to um the place where he was running a room, the house where he's running a room, and grabbed a pistol. And as he's walking along and this is about the same time that Kennedy's being pronounced dead, he's walking along the street, he Um encountered a cop named J. D. Tippett, and apparently Oswald just opened fire on this cop, shot him four times,

killed him instantly. Yeah. Well, he was investigating Oswald because the the A p B had already come through with the description of Oswald, and he was like, well, this guy fits that description. Let me talk to him. And it didn't take long though I don't think there was much of a discussion before Oswald shot him and killed him. And um, actually, when Oswald was finally apprehended, it was for the murder of the cop. They they didn't know

he had anything to do with Kennedy at the time. Yeah, yeah, at the time. Uh, he ducked into a theater, the Texas Theater, into the movie War as Hell, And I think he snuck in, And that's why they called the cops because they're like, hey, someone stuck in the theater. So he would have had a bought a ticket. He might not have ever been caught. You never know. You know what's interesting about that, there's all these parallels between

the Lincoln assassination and the Kennedy assassination. Um, some are untrue, some are just ridiculous. But one of them was that John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln in a theater and went and hit out in a warehouse, and Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy from where our house and went and hit out in a theater where he was caught. That's a pretty good one. I like that one. Um. So he was apprehended in the theater and reportedly said, well, it's

all over now. But he also said something interesting at one point to the media I'm a patsy, which has fueled speculation over the years that, uh, well, we'll get into the different theories before we go any further. Get this, the president of the United States of America has just been shot in front of a crowd in Dallas. That's right. That's huge, that's enormous. That's what's going on right now. And there's a man hunt for this guy who's just

been caught for killing a cop. Yeah, so people don't know that the president's killer has just been caught as well. That's right. So this is a it's a pretty emotional time. Uh, and let's talk about Oswald himself. But first, um, let's do a message break and we'll talk about Oswald when we come back. A h alright, So here's a little bit about Lee Harvey Oswald. He was a mixed up guy. Um, he was sort of an outcast, sort of didn't really

fit in. He was born in Um his father died two months before he was born, which I think, you know, probably has a lot to do with emotional scarring later on and maybe being a mixed up kid. Uh. He was in an orphanage for a little while with an older brother and half brother, but his mother was able to get him back out of that orphanage uh and raised them age five five when he got taken on the orphanage, which was enough years to also do some

damage psychologically. I think that probably set the theme because I read a little bit about what you know, contemporary reports of him growing up concluded his problem was and that it was. One social worker said that he believed his mother doesn't give a damn about him, uh so uh and that somebody else said that they've never met a kid more emotionally starved than this guy. Uh So.

I'm quite sure that being left it in an orphanage, even being picked back up after a while it was, probably did have a pretty big effect on him on his development and how he viewed his mother. Well. Yeah, and when you look at what he did for the rest of his life, um, it seems like he was always looking for a new family quote unquote, um, whether

it was the Marxist or the Communists, or Cuba or Russia. Like, it seems like he never and it's kind of a it's like one oh one, you know, he was looking to fit in somehow somewhere with somebody, but at the same time, it was always on the fringe of wherever he was at. Yah, you know what I mean, Like he's never happy with where he was. He wanted to fit into whatever was counter what he was doing or with the status quo of where he was right. So at sixteen he drops out of school and tries to

join the Marine Corps. Um he was too young, so they said come back later. He wrote the Socialist Party when he was Socialist Party of America when he was seventeen, to say, hey, I'm weigh into Marxism and like, can I come join your club? I guess at the very least we send me a free button. Uh. And then at seventeen he reapplied to the Marine Corps and he was old enough at that point. And turns out he

had quite an act for shooting guns. He's a sharp shooter during boot camp, but then during the actual ranking testing only rated as a marksman, which is still really good. Yeah, just below sharp shoot the sharp shooter the highest or is that the dead eyes the highest level. I think sharp shooters size. But at the same time, even while he was a marine, a Marine marksman, he um he taught himself Russian. He studied about the Soviet Union and communism.

And this is during the Cold War. This is like during the most paranoid finger pointing part of the Cold War. But Oswald's in the Marines, like teaching himself Russian and everything, see what I mean, like a confused guy. Yeah, but even still like it's just it's so strange to me learning about his experience that he was relatively left alone while expressing pretty publicly this interest in the Soviet Union

and communism during the peak of the Cold War. It's just I thought, if you had if you even wore the color red, people like communists get him. But apparently you could just hide him plain sight or admire the

Soviet Union plain sight. Well, he eventually would find himself on a watch list because he went to Russia um under um he obtained a passport falsely with an application to a college in Switzerland and applied got to Moscow, applied for citizenship there and they were like yet, and so he he goes, oh, yeah, if you know, I mean, I'm gonna kill myself. He basically did the same day he was rejected by Russia. He slit his wrist and the warmhearted Soviets were like, well, okay, you can stay

a young man. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, that's what allowed him to stay. Ye, like, yeah, that's just weird. Yeah, is so he said, I don't want to be Um. Well, he he did not officially announce his citizenship in America, although he expressed interest in doing so. Yeah, he kind of mouthed off about it, but never actually did it. That's right. Uh. In Russia he fell in love with a lady named Marina Prusakova. And you're not going to

try our middle name nicola Venna nice Nikolavna. Yeah, I think that's right. And um, basically he was like, you know, we should probably go back to the United States because it turns out Russia sucks. These breadlines I weren't expecting them to be so long. Yeah, it said he'd become disenchanted. I think that's a nice way of saying that Russia sucked. Right, So he says, Hey, I know a place where you're

gonna love. It's called Texas. Let's move back there. Uh, just forget the fact that you don't speak any English. You don't know anybody in Texas. Everybody back in America thinks I'm a weirdo and I'm your husband. Uh, just let's go and move to Texas. And she's like, she said, what did you say in Russian? He's like, nothing in Russian?

And so they moved to Texas and uh, she apparently very quickly became just she felt isolated, she didn't have any friends, and a woman named Ruth Payne UM felt bad for her and took her under her wing and they became kind of friends. And Ruth Payne will come into play a little later on. Yeah, and this is where he was finally sort of um on the radar of the FBI. Yeah, when he moved back. Yeah, you

can't move to Russia and then come back. And they just, you know, don't even bother talking to you know, but they did talk to him and they said, okay, well listen, if if the USSR gets in touch with you and want you to do sp N, just let us know. Sure. Okay, They're like, all right, we'll have a great day. Thanks for the coffee, ma'am. She's like, what did you say in Russian? It's pretty remarkable. So on April tenth nine, Um, another interesting thing happened a few days after losing his job.

He tried to assassinate Major General Edwin Walker. This guy was a piece of work himself. Yeah, he was a hardcore right wing conservative, possibly gay man. Oh I hadn't heard that. Yeah. Later in life, in his seventies, he was arrested twice for fondling men in public. I wonder if he was the model for um, the dad in American beauty. Oh, maybe I could see that then. Yeah. I mean he never married, and they I don't think they ever came right out and said he was gay.

But he was arrested twice for fondling police officers. If that's the case, email and let us know. Okay, Yeah, which is neither here nor there, but it's interesting. No, but he he was, like you said, extreme, a right wing extremist in the very definition of the work. He was very um, well respected, decorated military leader, like he was commanding all of the troops in West Germany. At

one point when no he hated the Kennedys. He called Harry Truman and Eleanor Roosevelt pink, which means that they were communists sympathizers, which is a big deal. He was temporarily relieved of his post while he was investigated for that, and he said, you know what, I'm not even gonna I'm not going back because the US has given up his sovereignty to the United Nations and I can't fight

for it any longer. And this guy was so convinced by his own convictions that he refused a military pension for years afterwards because he didn't want to have anything to do with him. Well, apparently he refused it, but then kind of quietly tried to get it right. Well, and they gave it to him. Yeah, um, But then he was celebrated as a great soldier later on in

life and after his death. So another example though of Oswald is sort of a confused guy, like he tries to assassinate this right wing conservative general he also was at a marine. He also killed Kennedy. He was just sort of like it didn't seem like he knew what he believed. Well, he believed that Um was the general's name. Walker was like Hitler in the making. Yeah, basically that he was an extremist who needed to be taken up,

but he missed. Yeah, from about a hundred feet away, he shot into his dining room from the street where he was sitting in a desk and hit the window pane and uh that you know, made the bullet go a different directions, so he missed. So Lee Harvey Ostal, it's basically doing anything he can to insinuate himself in

international global politics. Yeah, but he got away with it like they never It was a cold case until they finally caught him and put the you know, I think his wife was the one who's who fingered him later on, Yeah, because he comes home and says, hey, we're moving to New Orleans and she's like, what did you just say? And so they moved to New Orleans and UM while they're there, she's like, I've had enough, you're shooting at um public figures. Now we're moving from Texas to New Orleans.

I'm moving back, and she moved in with her friend Ruth Payne. And that surely had an effect an impact on Oswald. There's no way it couldn't because he already had abandonment issues from his mother. Now his wife leaves him because he's just crazy, and he's like, well, you know what, fine, I'm gonna stay here and I'm going to start a chapter of a pro Cuba pro castro sympathizer club and I'm gonna be the one and only member, but I'm gonna be a loudmouth member. I think you

wanted more than one member. But it was another example of like nobody was interested in this guy. Nobody. Russia didn't want him, No one joined his club, his wife left him, Cuba didn't want him. No. He went down to Mexico and visited the Cuban and Russian embassies, trying to basically get in them with them, and they're are like, it's okay, thanks man. Yeah, like nobody was. I think the words strictly used was no one was ever very

impressed with Oswald. They were unimpressed Soviet and Cuban officials. I mean, if this guy was a Patsy, he was the perfect Patsy. Oh yeah, but you can also take all of this evidence and say, well, this is what made him do this. Yeah, if he was a Patsy, you imagine how easy it would have been for like one of the theories is the mafia, for them to put their arm around and be like, you're you're a pretty great guy, right, you know what you should do?

You should kill the president? Yeah? Yeah, he would have been very easy to manipulate, I imagine because he's also just twenty four. It when the kid, which is crazy, um so he uh he left New Orleans, went back to Dallas, got a job, and about a month later at the school book depository, Uh shot and killed John F. Kennedy. Yes,

so um Oswald's done is shooting He's called. They started to investigate his background, and Lynnon Johnson ordered a um an investigation of full investigation into the Kennedy assassination, what happened, what lessons learned, all that stuff, And this commission, led by Chief Justice Earl Warren UH was called the Warrant Commission, and the report they compiled several hundred page reports called

the Warrant Report. And in addition to the several hundred page report, they also released twenty six volumes of transcripts of the hearings that they conducted. So it's this exhaustive investigation that was very transparent. Supposedly, there's so many documents that to try to censor them, really censor them, it would be virtually impossible. So a lot of people point to the very fact that the Warrant Report is so voluminous that it is like in fact correct, and it's

not part of a larger cover up at least. Yeah, and acsuently the article did you read the one in the New York Times that some people think they're still documents the CIA won't release. Well, they won't. Well, but the one anti conspiracy guy that they interviewed said, people that I don't know how the CIA works that believe this stuff. He went, there would be no documents period. They wouldn't be hiding things, they wouldn't exist Operation killed

President Kennedy. Yeah, I mean he's sort of like a little pad on the head, like you think there are documents, you sweet little conspiracy theorists. Um, alright, So the warrant Commission comes out and immediately conspiracy theorists start to suggest different things, like one theory was that it was an outside job by the KGB and or Cuba. Right, we should say, the warrant Commission concluded that Lee Harvey Oswell killed President Kennedy on his own volution, by himself, um,

without acting at the behester the benefit of anybody else. Yeah, just a lone, singular, crazed gunman. So the conspiracy theories are everybody else saying no, that's not the case, and we gave the example of the Grassy Knoll, the acoustics and daily plause of the fact that a cop was running towards the Grassy Knoll, and conflicting eyewitness accounts, like

from the literal beginning of this event. In history, there have been all sorts of hey, that people have been able to make conspiracy theories out of, Like there's been no shortage of all sorts of different weird things that you can start to piece together with other things and come up with these very interesting, some um sound conspiracy theories, but that when you really get down to them, they're

not supported by evidence exactly. I'm glad you said that. Uh. The KGB or Cuba theory that maybe their governments were acting out and trying to kill Kennedy had some legs because the Bay of Pigs had just happened. They were certainly no friends of Kennedy at the height of the Cold War. There was definitely a motive there, but um, there was no evidence to tie Oswald in any substantive

way to either of these countries. No, they looked at his finances over they went back a year and a half and looked at his finances to see if there were any weird payments or whatever, and apparently the only amount total that they could have they couldn't account for came to like a hundred and sixty dollars could have been cash and diamonds, though I guess it could have

been so how they liked the deal. One of the other popular theories I mentioned was the mob and that Jack Ruby was working with the mob, and the second Oswald said I'm a patsy. They're like, we need to go take care of this, like right now. Yeah, we haven't mentioned Jack Ruby. Two days after Um, Kennedy was killed, Um, they were transporting Lee Harvey Oswald and a guy named Jack Ruby, who was a Dallas nightclub owner, came up and shot Lee Harvey Oswald in the chest and killed him.

Lee Harvey Oswald actually died in Parkland Memorial, the same hospital that Kennedy had two days before. Yeah, very famous photo which has since been made into very funny photo. Have you seen the band one? No, you never saw that. It was big years ago. It was, you know, the photo of Ruby killing Kennedy, and someone went in and photoshopped and in musical instruments because they're all like have different,

you know, pained expressions. And Jack Ruby's at the keys and I think Lee Harvey Oswald has a guitar and it looks like it's pretty funny. Check it out. How about another moment here for a message break touch All right, let's get back to it. So we were talking about the mafia. Um, because Jack Ruby owned a nightclub, Everybody's just like, well, he's went down with the mob. What's more, Lee Harvey Oswald probably was acting on behalf of the mob because he had an uncle in New Orleans who

was mafia connected. Mobbed up, as they say, Is that what they say? Yeah? But um, apparently there's no evidence that Oswald and his uncle communicated at all, and the these connections are fairly h tenuous at best. Jack Ruby himself said that the reason he did it was because he wanted to spare Jacqueline and Caroline the heartbreak of having to come back to Dallas to testify against Lee

Harvey Oswald. That's what he officially said. And apparently there's a transcript of and it is just hearsay, but it's um Oswald talking with his lawyer saying that, Um, he's saying like this whole charade we're doing that. He that he shot Oswald while he was blacked out, and he he can't be held responsible. That it's all just it's just just stupid, and they should go with the truth that, you know, he did this because he wanted to spare Jackie. Interesting,

that's supposedly it. But then apparently also it's supposedly he said that that was a charade as well, So who knows. Well. Another theory is that it was the CIA and it was an inside job. Kennedy had criticized their practices and um was, you know, trying to scale down Vietnam, and those weren't very popular things to do at the time if you were in the government. And so a lot of people say, you know what, Lennon Johnson might have orchestrated this whole thing, and it was an inside job

with the CIA. They're like, he barely ever wore pants, for God's sake. Uh. I don't know if this remained true to her death, but both Bobby Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy at one point I believe that quote he was felled by domestic opponents. Um. And of course Bobby died not too long after five years but um, I don't know if Jackie held that opinion her entire life. I'm not sure about that. I'm curious, but it seems to ring a bell that like she was suspicious of LBJ. Yeah. Um,

I know. Since two thousand, there have been five legit tenured historians that IT published studies, and four or the five concluded that there was probably some larger conspiracy at work, but none of them agreed on what it was, so it's it's hard to get a consensus. So ultimately, what the what it came down to the official line was that there were Um, there was a rifle that had Oswald's fingerprints on it that was found at the crime scene, that there is a picture in existence that of Oswald

holding that exact same rifle before the crime was committed. Um, he had already tried to kill a general. Yeah. And the fact that he said well it's all over now when he was apprehended. You take all this together, everybody who a lot of people think it was Oswald. That's the official line, right, Yeah, And the Suppruter film has been used to that. You know, hey, how can you shoot someone from this direction? And they had to go that direction? Um, there were other films of the incident,

but the Supruter is the most complete. I did look at some of the others. I've never seen any of those before. It's weird to see it from different angles, yeah, if you're used to seeing just the Brooder film. UM. So, the Warrant Commission did not put this issue to bed at all, even back then. Uh. The there was another commission that took place in nineteen seventy six, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and they investigated both JFK and

Martin Luther King's assassinations. And this is a group of UM House representatives who, you know, it's true, are known for being the rabble rousers of the government, that brands of government. UM. But they basically investigated this, carried out a full investigation and found that, you know what, we actually think that JFK did die as a result of a conspiracy. We don't think it was the mob, we don't think it was the c i A, we don't think it was the FBI, and we don't think it

was the Cubans. But we do believe that it was a conspiracy and that um Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone. This is the House of Representatives saying that, yeah, well they initially said that there were four shots, but they were actually wrong. And then later we can did that um with acoustic evidence and said, you know what, we were wrong on that and they did never find any like hard evidence. But was there did they remain true to that statement? Yeah, that was never their final report.

Interesting yeah, um, yeah, that it was part of a conspiracy. So that definitely didn't quell any No. And as a matter of fact, it's like, oh, well, the House of Representatives just said Kennedy was killed as part of it a conspiracy, like if if it was dying down before it flared right back up. And there was another one almost at the same time, a Rockefeller Commission by Vice

President Nelson Rockefeller. And a lot of people think that the Rockefeller Commission was basically just like a fact finding committee that was there to basically cover up and um derail any other investigations. Really yeah, kind of like we got this, we got this. You know. It didn't work though, because of the House Select Committee. Well, they invalidated one of our favorite little parts of the theory, the three

tramps theory. Um. At the time, there were these three vagrants that were detained by police that had been traveling by boxcars supposedly, and um, that's how they travel often, that is how they travel. And two of the men for a while, we're believed to have been E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis, who were the dudes who broke into Watergate, which would be a nice little coincidence. Yeah. Well there's a whole side by side photographic comparison of the two. I mean, it looks a lot like them.

Well it does. Um, the FBI got experts to do the same thing though that said, no, that that's not them. Uh. And the third guy, And if you're a conspiracy theorists, you're like, oh, okay, well thanks, FBI appreciate that. I believe you. Um. The third guy was rumored to be what he Harrelson's dad, Charles Harrison. He was a hit man and he they were estranged. By the way, what he Harrelson is not like he doesn't talk about this much. It's not one of his favorite topics. Sorry, we got

to talk about it. But um, he he killed a federal judge and then when he was caught in a standoff in nineteen eighty high on cocaine. He said I killed Kennedy too, and then later on recanted that and said, I just said that because I was high on cocaine. Yeah, and I was trying to elongate my life. And like they I don't think they would have killed me if they if I had information. That's what he said in a in an interview from prison. But conspiracy theorists latched

onto this and said he's the third tramp. He was the youngest one of the three. And the pictures kind of look alike, you know it to Harrison's dad was one of a trio of men who killed JFK. Well, all of this could have been put to bed if the dudes look nothing like the other guys, but they all kind of did. So another thing to add field to the fire for sure. And we should say also, there's um even more like you were saying, the CIA still still will not declassify documents that they have about

the JFK assassination. That's not helping things. Something did come to light though, from UM investigations into the CIA. The guy named George Joannity's he Um was a CIA agent who was basically in charge of a group of anti Cuban Student Dissidents right or anti Castro Cuban student dissidents, and he was running their operation in Miami and New Orleans.

They actually beat up Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans handing out pamphlets that were pro Cuban and pro Castro um like a few months before the assassination. So George Joannity's ran that operation and then later on in when the House elect Committee was investigating it again, he was the liaison for the CIA, but no one told the How Select Committee the involvement he'd had before. Interesting, well, uh,

with Wood, he's dad. He actually had a co conspiracor that said, you know what, He's confessed this before to me and even drew maps about where he was hiding the day it happened. Um. But in arrest records were released and identified the three tramps as uh Gus Abrams,

Harold Doyle, and John Gedney. It was all sound like suspicious names and they I think they interviewed a couple of these guys later in life and they were like, yeah, we were the guys, and we were just buckscar dudes, even though we had suits on and we're clean shaven and oh well, everybody back then was like, even if you were like just the total complete hobo, you still wore a suit in Fedora usually. Uh. So again people point to that and say, these clearly weren't you know,

these guys were paid or you know. And then a lot of other pinky things happen. People disappeared, witnesses disappeared. Um, it's it's never going to die. I don't think I don't think anyone will ever let this go. No, but that's that's what makes a great conspiracy theory, right. There's just too many facts outstanding that just can't be put to bed. So you got anything else, I got nothing else.

If you want to learn more about this, or if this piqued your interest, you should definitely check out our buddies over at Stuff. They don't want you to know. They have a huge, awesome body of work, um that they've put together over the years and continue to do so. Uh And you can also read this article on how stuff works dot com by typing JFK into the search bar and see what comes up. And since I said search part, it means it's time for a listener mail.

I'm gonna call this Chinese zombies from Sam LaRussa. Hey, guys, don't know you're aware of this, but you have a bit of a cult here in Wuhan, China. Awesome a whole two people, my girlfriend and I still it's pretty great. Yeah. We listen to you all the time and as you tell us about the stuff we should know. Um, we're both English teachers, and outside of with each other, the Stuff you shoud Know podcast is just about the only

English speaking we get on a day to day basis. Um. I have an incident though to write you about where Stuff you Should Know save my butt And it just happened yesterday. Wu Hand schools have a three hour siesta to avoid the hottest part of the day, and I usually use the time to plan lessons or take a nap. Um. Yesterday I decided to forego planning lessons in just nap and woke up a mirror twenty minutes before my afternoon dred and twenty minute lesson. Completely unprepared. I started panic,

But then remember, do zombies really exist? Stuff you Should Know podcast I listened to just earlier that day. My students are well aware of the zombie apocalypse theory. At the end of the world. But neither I nor they knew anything about the history of zombies, and I had

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following will grow to five, maybe even six people. Uh and Sam Larusa, thank you for being lazy and napping on the job and then using our work to uh do your job. But not really though, because he could have just been like, oh, well, I guess they're just gonna sit there quietly for two hours. He like, really hustled, that's true, he took initiative. Uh. And thanks to you and you're his wife, right for girlfriend, Thanks to girl friend.

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