The True Story of BlacKkKlansman

Oh nice? Yeah good? Huh Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I like uh. I like his choice at the end, like just completely pull a somersault on the viewer. Oh sure with that last bit. Yeah, like spoiler alert pretty yeah, for sure. We should probably say that out of the gate. If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want

it to be spoiled, don't listen this episode first. But um, yeah, I guess now that we said that, we can speak freely, right, yes, So, um the if if the entire movie was basically to disarm you up to the end, then I think it's one of the greatest movies I've ever seen. In my life. And even if it wasn't, that wasn't the entire point of the movie. It was still it was still great.

And how he pulled it out at the end, I think, yeah, well this was I don't know if you remember, but this is the movie I saw in Perth, Australia that happens at the end, that big, you know, sort of gut punch of realism at the end. And I stood up and I was like, hmm, like, I wonder what they they're thinking here in Perth. They're probably thinking what just happened? What's wrong with America? Yeah, and I'm going I might good to see you. I'm not American, I'm Canadian.

Can't you tail bloke? Oh goodness? Uh yeah it was. It was one of those things where I was like, I'm kind of slightly embarrassed right now. Like that. I enjoyed the movie, though I thought to see Spike Lee, who am just He's one of my favorite filmmakers in his sixties, still just bringing the juice like this. I loved it. Yeah. I also loved that it was controversial too um and that like some people criticized Spike Lee for like not going far enough for maybe kind of

um glossing over some of the ugly aspects of the story. Yeah, well you want to get to that at the end, maybe, Yeah, yeah, for sure, but we'll we'll give it a pre mentioned shout out, which is what we just did. Right, So we are talking about the uh, the true story of the film Black Klansman, Spike Lea's movie that won the Grand Prize at the con Film Festival. It's nominated for

Academy Awards. Yeah, three Oscars, I believe for including Best Picture, Yeah, I think Picture Director, and Supporting Actor for who I would guess Adam Driver. I didn't see. Really. Yeah. I was surprised because Denzel's son did a wonderful job as well. He loves he loves that being known as that, right. I can't remember his first name, but you know, Denzel's son.

He he was um like, there were several times when he was talking and I was like, oh, you're definitely Denzel Washington's son man, just the way he talked, the the sound of his voice. But also is acting too, He's a good actor. Yeah, so alright, Best Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Adam Driver, Best Director, and Best Original Music Score. Oh nice, but yeah, he is. I didn't know he was Denzel's son until after the movie. Yeah, I could see that. And he was a football player,

do you know that? I didn't. Who do you play for? He played for Morehouse here in Atlanta. He was a running back and then played an NFL in the practice squad for the RAM and then eventually played a few years in NFL Europe and the UFL until he hung up his cleats six years ago. Oh that's cool. Yeah, playing football in Europe has got to be a surreal experience. Yeah, because it's a soccer ball and everyone's like, what are

you doing? This is all wrong? All right? So should we way back in to the nineteen seventies, the groovy seventies of Denver, Colorado. First, first we should say his name is John David Washington. You were kidding Denzel's son? Yes, So yeah, let's get in the way back machine and see. Uh, let go inspect their terrible, low quality pot. So Ron Stalworth is the true to life character's name. Who There was a football player growing when we were growing up

named John Stalworth. So I'm always wanting to say John Stalworth, this is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stalworth, that's right, and he had a few designations that are pretty important. He was the first African American police officer to work for the Colorado Springs Police Department, which he joined as a cadet at the age of nineteen in seventy two, and then a couple of years later on his twenty one birthday, on his twenty first birthday, that's

what I saw at June eighteenth. I believe Nice was sworn in as a full on officer of the law, right And I'm not sure if like they just swear you in on your twenty one birthday or if it just so happened that the ceremony was on his twenty first birthday, But regardless, it was a big deal. He's the first African American cop and then later on detective for Colorado Springs. So that's that's a big deal, especially starting out at age twenty one two. That takes a

lot of cojones as they call it in Colorado. I think they call those rocky Mountain oysters. That's right, that is what they call him. So he worked undercover for about thirty years um long great careers and undercover detective, but it was this case which only came out about four years ago when he wrote a book about it about his career. Um, when he went under cover as a well as a klansman. But it's a little more complicated than that. It is. It was a very complicated operation,

right yeah. And and this wasn't something that like um, I mean he even says in this NPR interview that he didn't. It was just a job at that particular point in time. And when that particular job ended, that is the undercover stint, which was about about eight or nine months, I moved on to something else and it just happened by circumstance. So he didn't come in there with a bone to pick with the clan, aside from probably every bone to pick that he had with the clan,

right just as a black man in America. Oh yeah, And I knew it would probably help to give a little background on the clan at the time, because you know, the clan was very well known for being really big and really violent at over. Three waves is basically how the clan history is divided. Like the first wave was when they were um, they were founded in the wake

of the Civil War. UM. Then they had the second wave came around the nineteen teens, like nineteen fifty fifteen, I mean, um, that that era, and then they had another big resurgence during the Civil rights are in the fifties and sixties. But you know, in between these waves and after that third wave, it's not like the clan just went away. They just they kept on going. Their profile was lower and maybe there um the public violence or terrorism that they were engaging in wasn't quite as pronounced,

but they were still there. And in Colorado in particular, they had a really long history with the clan where basically the city of Denver was in the under the control of the clan back in the twenties, just you know, fifty years before um Ron Stalworth's started working there. Yeah

he was. He got when he when he got hired there, he got access to files like secret FBI files, and he got to go in and dig in and look at the history of the clan in Colorado, and boy, like you ain't kidding, they were in the House of Representatives. There were senators. Both senators were Clans members. The mayor Benjamin Stapleton, who the airport was named after, until yeah, his great grandson ran for governor um on the GOP ticket this past election and lost to who is Colorado's

first ever openly gay Jewish governor. Wow, Colorado is a weird state. It is an odd state for different ideologies all packed in together. It's very purple in all sorts of ways. Yeah, so, uh, Mayor Benjamin Stapleton was a clan member. The governor Clarence Morley was a clan member. UM a chief of police, which is I mean, you don't want anyone in these positions to be clan members, but I imagine the chief of police is one of the more problematic areas a person in that kind of control,

particularly that one too. He was basically he was picked by the clan, the Colorado Clan um and basically foisted on Benjamin Stapleton. Who who Who was even like, Wow, this guy's even too much for my tastes, and UM eventually fired him. But like the clan picked the chief of police of Denver, Colorado back in the twenties. Oh yeah, And they tried to recall Stapleton at one point. It didn't work, and when that effort failed, the clan burned across on the top of Table Mountain as a celebration,

a show of public celebration. Right, So the clan has deep roots in the old story in Colorado, or at least they used to, and they were still very much around when um uh, when Ron Stalworth started as his stegationer, started as the um, the first black detective in Colorado Springs, right,

that's right. And so he started out, I guess is kind of playing clothes and was assigned um undercover work pretty quickly, just just by his um, just by being the only African American UH officer in the police force. Because Stokely Carmichael came to town once, that's right, And this is in the film. We're gonna talk about a few differences between the movie and and the real story.

But he did, in fact to go to a speech and a rally by famous black panther Stokely Carmichael, and he was, you know, fully kidded out in his bell bottoms and his wearing a wire he picked his afro out, and he in fact did make a point to meet him, just like he did in the film. And Carmichael did apparently say arm yourself and get ready because the revolution has come ing. And I imagine Stalworth had some mixed

feelings about that assignment. Yeah, I guess so. Um, it's kind of like, I don't really have any idea of what he personally was like because the movie mixed things up so much and like added layers that weren't necessarily there. So I have no idea what what that experience would have been like for him, you know. Yeah. One thing we do know is not true is the character in the film of Patrese, whom he meets at that rally, young woman that he falls in love with. She was

made up for the movie. Spike Lee wanted a a love interest basically and to represent sort of the the female black power movement as a whole. So she was completely made up. But she was terrific in the film. Yeah. Yeah, Laura Harry Or she's in the New Spider Man movies too, She's awesome, cool, the New Spider Verse movie No no, no, that's animated. Okay, well, she could have been a voice actor,

I guess right. Yeah. Now she's in then the One, the New Ones with the New the New Kid, okay, the New Spidy Kid, the Current spider Man, Current Spider Man, which is great. Those are good movies. I haven't seen any of them. You're not super into that stuff. The ore you Well, I saw the Infinity War when he was in that. I think, Yeah, he's a bit of a smart alec. Frankly, he is um so okay. He he does his research on the deep roots of the clan in Colorado, he goes undercover and then I don't

think he was even assigned this thing. I think he kind of came up with it on his own by chance, almost uh, in October night. He was twenty five at this point, and he was looking through the local paper. Well that was part of his assignment, to gather intelligence by reading the paper. Well, right, but I don't think I think this was his idea to go undercover like this. That's the impression I have to. He seemed like a

self starter, uh in a lot of ways. So he found this ad um classified ad in the paper for the clan, UH said get in touch of you aren't further information. He sent a letter posing as a white racist to a po box, just thinking that he would just get back some pamphlets or something. So he signed his real name, which is uh. He didn't really think

that went through. No, he didn't, and he didn't he never really fully explained it aside from the best explanation I saw is that he didn't think anything was going to come of it. He thought he'd get, like you said, a couple of pamphlets and that would be that. UM. And he just wasn't planning to create like a large investigation out of making contact through this this ad. And

and again we should probably state this. It was an ad in the paper for the client to get in touch with the clan, to get more info about the clan and maybe you might want to join who knows? Um. So, so he he makes contact with him by sending off a letter. And if you ask me if if if Spike Lee were directing this episode, he would put an ad break right here. That was good. Who are we to disagree? All right, we'll be right back, okay. So, like we said, ron Stalworth is thumbing through the newspaper.

He mails off a letter to get more info about the clan, and um he uses his real name, and and like like you said, Chuck, he was expecting like a pamphlet or something in return, like so you want to be a clan member or something like that. Um. Instead, about two weeks later he got a call from the number. So he used everything as far as the undercover operation would go. Um, he used all of his undercover info

except for his name. So he got a call on his undercover phone line from a guy named Ken O'Dell And he was pretty surprised to get this call because again he was expecting a pamphlet and instead he had a real life, living, breathing Ku Klux Klansman on the other end of the line saying Hey, I got your letter about hating black people and other minorities. Let's talk. Yeah, he was like, why are you interested, and Stalworth immediately

just kind of goes into character. Uh, and I guess that's what you You know, when you're undercover, you you got to be part improv actor, right to be able to pull that off. Well. He also he said he drew from his own personal experiences because he grew up in El Paso and encountered a lot of racism there and I'm sure on the force in Colorado Springs too,

so he drew from his own experience as well. Yeah, so he basically right out of the gate says, well, you know, uh, my sister's dating a black man, and every time he puts his hands on her, on her pure white body. I cringe, and I want to do something about it. And Ken O'Dell says, he sounds like a great guy. Why once you come on down and let's meet, because you are just the kind of uh kind of dude we're looking for. You sound like real clan material. Yeah. I thought about maybe doing an episode

on the clan. I thought about the two and then I'm like, do you want to give him a platform? Yeah? But then I thought, or you know, you could just talk about it and how stupid they are? All right? Like it when I was a kid. I mean, of course, being in Georgia, that stuff was around. I never like saw it firsthand, obviously, but you heard things even like growing up in the seventies in Georgia, and I was always so scared of the whole thing because of the

outfits and everything and the fire. Uh. And I was a good little Baptist boy, so there was a lot of fear. But then I got a little older and I was like, they're just dumb rednecks wearing sheets, right, sort of demystified it. This is the moment you become an adult. Yeah, But I mean, of course, then I would later learn that they did real horrific things and took lives and you know, or a terrorist organization. Right.

But I think what you're saying is they made themselves up to be Boogeyman exactly, and they definitely can be that way, especially in the young mind or something like that. But yeah, um so, so back to the story. Ron Stalworth is on the phone with this guy named Ken O'Dell who wants to meet him to see if he'd like to join the clan. And this is a big problem because I think, as we mentioned a couple of times, ron Stalworth was African American. He's like, oh boy, what

do I do here? Right? So he actually recruited a fellow detective who he in his book calls Chuck. That's all he's ever publicly referred to the guy as his Chuck. Wait was it you, Chuck? It was not me that that gentleman is I guess either still undercover or just never wanted his identity out there, right, So he yeah, he may still live in Colorado Springs. Who knows, maybe he's on a case right now for all I know.

But so this Chuck guy, uh, he's he was recruited by Ron Stalwarts, who play Ron Stalworth to the clan. Because Chuck was white, he was already an undercover narcotics agent, and apparently he was friendly enough with Ron Stalwarts to say, yes, I will, I will join this investigation, buddy, let's do it. Yeah. And here's the thing, though, he was, uh, this wasn't his like primary case. So Chuck is undercover on a lot of different assignments, so he's not around as much

as Stalworth needs him. So, like in the movie, most of this stuff is done over the phone. Like, he spends a lot of time in this investigation on the phone speaking to these klansmen who think that he's a white man, and when they needed to meet, he would send Chuck in who uh And we'll get to the voice part in a minute. Because that's when I was

watching the movie. I was like, didn't know that these dummies not realize that they don't sound anything alike, right, you know, because they've been talking to him on the phone at length. Um. But they had their they had their first meeting. Um, they got together and I believe they met. Um they met somewhere at first and then went to a bar after like as the second part

of that meeting. Yeah, they met at a convenie. So the movie is supposedly portrays this realistically, they they this Chuck guy, who is portraying ron Stalworth through the clan um met They met at a convenience store and he was said he was told to get in the car and then they drove to a second location, which, man, that's scary stuff. And also he's also wearing a wire at the time, Like that's something that that the movie kind of gets across, but especially like articles about the

story don't necessarily dive into this. Chuck cat was like putting himself out there as every undercover detective does, right. So, I mean, ron Stalworth is conducting this investigation, he's the mastermind of He's leading this whole thing. But this poor Chuck I has to go hang out with these you know, violent clans members or clan members on you know what, like fairly frequently from what I understand. So hats off

to him. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean it was it was definitely like it required both of their best efforts to get away with this for that long. It was quite the ruse. So Chuck meets with them eventually earns their trust along with the phone work of Stalworth, and then he actually gets um successfully admitted about two months later and got his little I guess you get a little membership card. He still has it, he does. He

did not throw it away like in the movie. He hasn't framed in fact, and on the back of the card where six codes of conduct, one of which said, UM never discussed any clan affairs with any plain clothes officer on a state, local, or national level. So there is a lot of comedy in the movie if you haven't seen it, Um, I mean, it's it's a serious thing that they're doing, but there are a lot of laughs as well, a lot of laughs and a lot of like movie formula steps that Spike Lee purposefully follows,

you know, very faithfully too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Um there's a big point there that we left out the Chuck so to get that membership card supposedly, again, as they say in Colorado, the oysters on this guy his he had so he met so the fake Um, fake Ron Stallworth Chuck met with the clan impressed them enough. Between Ron's the real Ron Stalwarts phone calls and Chuck's whatever Chuck was saying in in person. All this combined made the Colorado Springs Clan members say, okay, we like you,

we want you to be a member. Fill out this application and we'll send it off to them to the national director of of Again the clan al we should say. I don't know if we've ever said that. The clan calls itself the organization rather than the clan. So they and and the guy who ran the thing, I don't know if he still runs it or not, but he definitely did at this time during this investigation is a guy named David Duke, who if you grew up in the eighties or I think even the nineties, you were

probably pretty familiar with David Duke. I believe he ran for president once. Didn't he? I don't know. I mean he was, he was. Wasn't he the governor of Louisiana. I don't. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe he ran for that. But he was the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and he was trying to make it

a more political organization. Let's let's have a terrorist organization and more of a political organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan Like there was still plenty of times when he was wearing robes and stuff he just never did in public. So during this time he was he was the national director, the Grand

Wizard of the clan. And when ron Stalworth didn't get his application pushed through fast enough, he picked up the phone, had called the national headquarters and ended up talking with David Duke and saying like, Hey, my application is taking a while. Is there anything you can do about it? And this kicked off like a what what um ron Stalworth would later characterize in a weird way as a friendship between him, a black undercover detective in Colorado, and

David Duke, the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah. And by the way, I don't want to get uh angry emails from David Duke's reporters. Uh. He was a Republican UM Louisiana State rep. He was not governor UM, but I think he ran for some some high off he did. He ran, Uh. He was a candidate for the Democratic presidential primaries in the late eighties and then the Republican primaries in ninety two. He ran as a Democrat and then a I could see that solid South

kind of thing. Yeah, And I think he ran for state Senate and lost U S Senate and lost US House and loss and he did run for governor of Louisiana but he lost got okay. And and you maybe if you're if you didn't grow up in the eighties, you may have heard his name more recently because um, he fully endorsed uh Donald Trump's campaign and after Donald Trump won he um, this was his quote on Twitter. Make no mistake, our people have played a huge role in electing Trump. So he was he was in the

news again more recently. Well, he was also in Charlottesville. Um, if not leading the rally to Unite the Right, definitely a big speaker at it, a big a big part of it. Um. And Spike Lee uses some of his footage from that rally. Uh, they kind of get across that, you know, this stuff is still going on. This isn't from the seventies or or earlier. How great was so for Grace? He was wonderful. It was so good. And he looks a lot like David Duke of the seventies.

He really does. Unfortunately for Stash in the three piece suits and all that. So you had a good job, but so so yeah in the movie Too for Grace, from that seventies show, um always he will always be from that seventies show he plays um what do you want me to say? Like he he had a bit part in Oceans eleven or something. Brad Pitt's character was

teaching him to play poker. I think you know that guy, know he's that sevent so so he he plays David Duke in the in the movie and there this this is, this is it's really funny, like Spike Lee added stuff that it's just you you would think like, well, yeah, of course it's totally believable, like Chuck being Jewish in real life, and he actually wasn't. That's that's fabricated by the movie. So you would just not even think twice

about that. But it turns out that's not true. The stuff that seems the least true was actually the stuff that actually happened, and for a very long time, at

the very least. Over the course of this nine month investigation, there were multiple phone calls that were very cordial and friendly where um ron Stalworth would call David Duke, imposing as a White Clam member and pump him from information they would talk about, you know, David Duke's family and like, just have no normal conversations that would inevitably turn back to racism and the um the weakening of the white race at the hands of you know, the Jewish media

and all the minorities who are taking over, and so it would it would inevitably turn disgusting. But he said later, I think in the book in an interviews where if you could separate that stuff out, he was actually a pleasant person to talk to, and that's where that weird friendship that he characterized it as kind of developed from those conversations. But there is exactly but there is at least one video of David Duke basically admitting that, yes,

this he had conversations with this guy. He tries to downplay it, but he does basically verify that, yes, that's true, that really happened, and probably, like I can't remember every phone call I had with every random racist over the years, even this guy posing his one um. All right, well let's take another break and we're gonna go We're gonna talk a little bit more about this weird David Duke relationship right after this. Alright, so he's buddying up with

David Duke on the phone. He's fooling everybody. And he even like you get the sense that he does have a little bit of sense of humor. Um Stalworth, because at one point he even goaded him on the phone a little bit. And this is in the movie and it was totally true. He's said, you know, Mr Duke, have you ever worried about like a black man posing as a white man and infiltrating your organization? And Duke said no, and he said uh. And this this is

from the NPR interview with Stalworth. He said, I can tell you're white because you don't talk like a black man. He said, you talk like a very smart, intellectual white man. And I can tell by the way you pronounced certain words. And he said, you know, give me an example, and he said, black people tend to pronounce the word are aura. And I can tell by listening to you that you're not black because you do not pronounce that word in that manner. It's science case closed. Oh boy, he was

so easily duped. I love it. Uh. And then they also, uh did in fact meet in person. Um, that part is true as well. Duke came to town um and was having lunch. It was not a big ceremony like in the movie, but he came to town to have lunch and the department assigned Stalworth to protect him, and so he goes there to the restaurant, introduces himself to protect him. Duke says, all right, I appreciate you them,

you know, sending someone my way. And Chuck is undercover there as well, and he does, in fact, Stalworth pose with David Duke and gets a polaroid with him. So this sounded to me like what what was the what was going on here? Like, I mean, like, you've got this investigation going this is this takes place during this this undercover investigation that Stalworth's conducting. You have a guy who's already like putting himself out there, Chuck, as as

the white Ron Stalworth. And then the chief says, oh, yes, by the way, Um, you the only African American police officer in our entire um squad. You go be David Duke's bodyguard for the day while he's in town in

Colorado Springs. Like that was just bizarre. And not only do it, um do that that that very like obvious over act slap in the face to David Duke, which was great, but if it but it could have jeopardized like this whole, this whole thing, because also you had the guy portraying ron Stalworth um in the same room at the same lunch. It just seemed really strange. And again that it was one of those things where when you watched the movie you would think like, well, that's

just made up. No, that actually took place, at least according to ron Stalworth's memoirs, and that that that Chuck was in the room was asked to take a picture by Ron Stalworth with David Duke and the Grand Dragon I guess who must be like the head of the state in Colorado. And then the last second, when he was counting down, he put his arms around the shoulders of the two clan guys and then got his hands on the picture. Apparently all of that was the case,

but he's since lost the picture. Yeah, and Duke really did try to get it back, and uh, Stalworth like got to it quicker and said basically like if you try to take this thing, I will have arrested for assaulting a police officer. Right, don't do it, don't think about it, right, So he said he lost it in a move he wished he had taken better care of it. But um, the idea that it was like that, that's

just so nuts. It tells you a lot about the investigation though to me, Like it makes you say, like, okay, how seriously were they taking this investigation at the time. If Stalworth later said all right, this is this is just um, you know, this is just another job to me. When I started it, I did the job, and then when it was done, I moved on to another job.

The fact that he didn't talk about it much until I think he spoke about it to the press once in two thousand and six a Desert News article, um, and then didn't talk about it again until two thousand fourteen when his memoirs came out. Um, it was just like a thing that they were doing that other people

were doing other stuff too. Um. And then to to have like that part of it, that the idea that you would you would jeopardize it in that way, it just makes it like they weren't taking it as that big of an operation as as like the movie would like to to believe. I'm not sure. Well, I think in in real life it was it was a information gathering investigation Like it was never we're going to take down the clan in Colorado. UM, it was let's infiltrate

and get as much information in fact finding as we can. UM. And in the end, after eight months, UM, that's kind of what happened. It was he considers Stalworth considers it a success and that they fulfilled their mission. UM. They did prevent three cross burning ceremonies during that eight months

span or at nine months span. And they did identify UM clan members who worked at Norad right who apparently they said they, I mean these days they would be fired probably, but they said they reassigned them to like Greenland or something, right because they had access to the two nuclear weapons. Apparently they had very high level clearance at nora Ad, which is scary. And then they also found plans that they didn't act on, like the whole bomb plot in the movie was was made up for

dramatic purposes. But they did find links between for a plan to UM bomb a gay nightclub and another plan to steal automatic weapons from an army base, like an inside job. So it was, you know, it was valuable work they were doing, for sure, It just wasn't like, we're going to take the clan down, Like, I don't think it was the the Department's big, big job at

the time. No, certainly not. And and in the memoirs and in the movie to the the reason that's given for the the U the undercover operation to end is because it started to become successful. Um Ron Stalworth was nominated to lead the Colorado Springs chapter of the clan. Like Ken O'Dell basically said, you should take my job. Everybody likes you. You're really good at this, you're smart, Um, you should lead the clan here uh and the the

police chief of Colorado Springs. So that's it, close it down, burn all the evidence of this investigation. He apparently was worried about what what a pr nightmare it would be if it got out that some of his detectives were in the Colorado Springs Clan. But at the same time, what strikes me is odd is that the FBI wasn't like, oh, well, geez, this guy is like being nominated to lead the Colorado

Springs Clan. He's talking to David Duke like, really that this this could not be kind of blown up into a larger investigation or a larger staying or something like that. And then secondly, and um Ron Stalworth himself addresses this, there's a very frequently a criticism of well, if this was such a big operation and they found all this stuff, why wasn't anyone arrested? Why weren't there any arrests? And right,

not just David Duke. Stal Wars says also that some that in law enforcement to people question that, like why wasn't anyone arrested? And he said, it was an intel investigation and and that's what they did, is they gathered stuff. But then he very rightly points out, like you said, like the fact that they prevented cross burnings alone makes it a worthwhile and valuable operation. I think just some people on the outside are saying, well, why wasn't why

wasn't more done? Why didn't more come out of this? You know? And I'm not quite sure what they're driving at, but there are you know. Stalworth brings that up in an interview I read with him like that people do ask that and wonder about that. Yeah, and Stalworth it's very proud of the fact that with the cross burnings.

He was like, no, I can't remember the quote, but he said something about like, no children in Colorado Springs got you know, no young black kids had to see crosses on fire during that eight or nine month period, and uh, very proud of that, as he should be. Yeah, for real. Um, so I mentioned the voice earlier and the fact that he had a different voice obviously than Chuck, and um, he said one time, only one time. Uh, and I think this was in the movie, wasn't it was?

I was actually know it was. I remember. Yeah, So one time in the whole investigation, did someone say like, wait a minute, you sound different? Um, Chuck had just been at a in person meeting, came back. Uh, and then um Stalworth wants to follow up on the phone with Ken O'Dell about something right afterward. So he had just heard Chuck's voice for whatever this whole meeting and was talking to him and he was like, wait a minute, you sound different. What's going on? And he just pulled

it off. He coughed and said he had a sinus infection, and Ken O'Dell was like, oh, well, here's how you clear that up and gave him some good sinus medication advice. Yeah, they definitely appeared in the movie. I mean you could not make this thing up. You know, it's crazy. No for real and no, apparently for a long time, Stalworth was saying like, yeah, I was just another job. It was just another operation. And I guess he told some some fellow like law enforcement friends or whatever about it,

and they're like, dude, you this is a movie. You need to write this down, You need to get this out there. You this is a one in a million story. Yeah. I wonder one reason it didn't go bigger operation wise was because the sort of hackneyed way they got into it, like he's the voice, but they're sending a a white man like it's it's I'm surprised he pulled it off for that long. Yeah, I could totally see that one final thing that did not happen in real life but

did happen in the movie. And this is what when you usually will change real life is to to get a more satisfying ending. But Stalwart did not, unfortunately, reveal his true identity to David Duke like he does to hilarious effect in the film. Unfortunately. No, he was saying like, yeah, he just he didn't really talk about it until the two thousand's, So David Duke didn't know until I guess the memoirs came out. Yeah, and you know, well, I

guess we should talk about Spike Lee getting criticized. Um, Boots Riley director, Uh who, I had a movie crush by the way, he um, what was his movie? Sorry to Bother You? Was his film that he made? No, I mean his pick for movie crush. His pick was a movie called Mishima, A Life and Four Chapters. Okay, yeah, it was a great film and his like, his knowledge on movies was deep. He turned me onto a lot of cool things. Thought for a very a very terrible second,

you were saying his pick was his own movie. No no, but he uh, you know, Boots does not hold back on what he thinks. Um. And while you would think that he would be like, oh no, I'm gonna be a champion of Spike Lee and telling the story, he came out very publicly on Twitter and the very uh intelligently criticized that he didn't just bag on it. He wrote a big, um long statement on exactly what he

thought was wrong with it. Yeah. He basically said, look, man, if you take away all the embellishments that Spike Lee added to this movie, what you have is a a guy who who's probably biggest assignment. And I'm not sure where he got this, but he focused on that that um Stokely Carmichael thing and the fact that UM ron Stalworth had worked undercover UM to infiltrate the Black Power movement in Colorado Springs and that he had worked on that for like three years. That this clan thing was

just a like a nine month thing. And he also criticized Spike Lee for making it making the movie seem like law enforcement and the Black Power movement came together to fight racism and that that like that was a larger pointer, that that was historically accurate or something like that. Um, it was a really interesting It was like a three page essay that he posted on Twitter that made some

good points. He basically said, from what I can tell, it looks like ron Stalworth was working for co intel Pro, which is the FBI s um it was their their program to undermine groups, including Black Power group, which we mentioned it in the Black Panther episode we did, and it the Coentel Pro definitely deserves its own episode, and it was it was ended officially in ninety one, but I think Boots Riley's point was, um, it might have been officially ended, but the work was still going on.

And if this guy was infiltrating Black Power UM like groups in Colorado Springs, he was almost certainly trying to break them up one way or another, probably using cointel um purposes or or practices. And Ron Stalworth he had a pretty great quote in response to it. He said, um, I pray for my demented, dissolute brother in response to Boots Riley and Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever, So who knows. But you make a good point that like he's he's he's not just giving like blind allegiance

to anything. Sure. Well, Spike did comment eventually, Oh I didn't see that. Yeah, he was. He was in an interview. In the first thing he said was like, hey, I'm a I'm a young man of sixty one or something like that, and like, you know, young me might have kind of gotten into a war of words, but he's

just not into that anymore. Um. But he did say, uh, briefly something about listen, I'm not gonna come out and say that all cops are a racist and all cops do bad things because they don't all do bad things. There's a lot of great cops, there's also bad cops. Um, And he kind of just couched it in that and then was like, but you know, I'm not gonna be really talking about this anymore, right, Yeah, I hadn't seen that he'd even had that comment. So it's interesting stuff

and it's a good movie at the very least. Oh for sure. You know, I think I think ron stalwarts like, man, they made a movie about my story. That's pretty awesome and at the very least it's a pretty great movie. How about that? Totally totally so um, if you you got anything else, I got nothing else. If you want to know more about black claims, mean, you should probably go see that movie. And I guess we probably should have said at the outset this episode is not an ad,

of course not. We just like the movie a lot, right, Yeah, I mean you could say it's an ad, but like, no one gave us money or asses to do this. Sure, Uh, okay, endorsing it. Okay, there you go. I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were, rest in peace Roger Ebert and giene Ciscal two thumbs Okay, So if already already said that. How about some listener mail. Yeah,

I'm gonna call this ping pong response from a former pro. Hey, guys, want to come in you on the job you did covering a sport that you didn't have an extensive, extensive knowledge of. I'm a professional table tennis coach and former player. I started playing in college. Thought it was really good until I was coerced to go to a tournament at Princeton University about twenty years ago and I got destroyed. I didn't like that, so I saw it out to

coach and the rest is history. You guys clearly did a lot of research and to highlight the things that most novice players aren't aware of. But there were a few things I couldn't help but point out. Josh, you mentioned the components of the modern racket. You said the pimpled sign those are called pips are for spinning the ball, that the smooth side is for defensive play. But the opposite is actually true. Um I didn't catch that because

I would have pointed that out. I thought everyone knew that. Thank you for that. You get good spin on that smooth side for real? Oh yeah, yeah, it's grippy. All right, uh, he said. The smooth side is very tacky um as in sticky, and that combined with the sponge underneath, allows the ball to sink in just enough so that the taxi service grips the ball and generates a lot of spin. Also, you can have really have any combination of rubber that you want as long as it's I T t F approved.

Players are not restricted to having one smooth side and one with pips, but one side does have to be read and the other black. Most defensive players use pips on their back hand because ups vary the spin that is coming back at you and it's very hard to read. Also, Chuck, you mentioned that defensive players are called chiselers. They're actually called choppers, as they chopped the ball back with varying back spin. I've never heard the term chiselers. I'm wondering

if it is extremely outdated. Maybe I bet you that was the gates I had old research. Chisela's all right, that's what they call them. That's funny, he said. If you guys are ever in the done Ellen, New Jersey area, stopped by there right now, stopped by the Lily Yep Table Tennis Club and I'll gladly hook you guys up with a lesson. I will gladly humiliate you in person. And that is Thomas from Philly. Thanks Thomas, um much appreciated. We like it when we were gently corrected because we

like to be right, so thanks for that. Uh. If you want to get in touch with us, let us know, UM, I don't know something we got wrong about black Clansman. Let us know. You can find all of our so show links on Stuff you Should Know dot com and has always Send us an email to Stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. H