The Science of Break-Ups

Point Modern Triad. Yeah, the Tryad. So Hey, before we get going, we want to tell everyone alright, at the end of this episode and before listener mail, actually instead of listener mail, we're gonna have in a couple of dudes from new show on our network and they're gonna

break up in front of us. No. There shows called how to Money, and these guys are local and they were big Stuff you should Know listeners, Matt and Joel, and they were like, we want to start a podcast about finance and money matters in life that's sort of like what you guys do, that's approachable and real and just like a couple of people talking normal but about money. Yeah, and it's really really good. Yeah. So we're gonna have those guys on at the end for a few minutes.

But it's a show I think everyone would love, so stick around for that. Cool. Uh. So I picked this one out because mainly, um it, uh, this is a refrain. We get an email a lot um we hear from heartbroken people a lot more than you would think that are just like that's so sad heart and you uh, you guys have helped me with this show as a distraction, which we will learn is one of the official ways to get over a breakup. Yeah, look over here, Yeah exactly.

Um So it just got me thinking about, like, is there any science behind breakups and the emotions that go along with it? And it turns out there's a lot, like a disturbing amount of study has been done. When you look at it, you're like, oh man, maybe you should have allocated that money towards research toward other things

like cancer. Yeah, although social psychology couldn't do anything about cancer. No, And it's you know, it's not like they're like, oh, well, we'll just it's all taken from one big pool, so we'll just allocate some of this break up money towards cancer research. Well, you could allocate the money, but the

mental energy, I guess is what I'm talking about. Yeah, but this that was just it seemed like study after study, and and also we should point out to that I think there was one case in here of one study where they looked at homosexual couples, But most of this study is like cis gendered straight couples through that lens, only they're not doing a ton of research outside that.

I found. I found one that UM that that tracks um it core relates the likelihood of breaking up to time, and they had it broken out by same sex and um straight, married, and unmarried. Those were like the four categories. So some people are doing it, but yeah, for the most part now. And I think one of the reasons why I chuck is a lot of this is from the mid two thousand's, early two thousand tens, and that was you know, that was about the last the last,

like the tail end of that. Now I think it's starting to change, fortunately, right because people of all genders and sexual orientation break up and get dumped, and we're here to help all of you. So buckle in, grab a hanky, and let's get through this. Yeah, I mean, let's we should go ahead and start out by saying I guess that um in theory, more people are breaking up now because people are generally waiting longer to get married.

So if you could extrapolate that if you're not married for in more years than let's say our parents were, then maybe you've gone through a couple of more breakups along the way. Yeah, we should give a shout out to Kristen Conger of Unladylike Media congs who wrote this article our old pal and she points out that that typically means that you are going to find somebody who you work with rather than rushing into it. But it also, as she puts it, like leaves the window open longer

for heartbreak to be dumped. One thing I saw, Chuck, this is mind boggling to me. Of people, according to this one study, um will be dumped in their lifetime, will experience being a breakup in their lifetime? That means of humanity won't. That is, those are some interesting people have not had a breakup or been broken up with, will not in their lifetime just going to either never have a relationship or the first time they're going to hit it out of the park. But that doesn't mean

like or settle. I've never been dumped. Yeah, like they'll never have gone through a breakup, But I've been through breakups I've done. I've been the dumper, right, I know what you're saying. No, I believe that they will not have experience a breakup in their lifetime. Either way, Well, that's great. That means say I met the person that

they love when they're young, probably again. Or it means that they decided to live their life alone just fine, right, or or both they like I said, they decided to like, yeah, I'm just gonna stick with this person. Yeah, I don't want to. I want to be what. I don't want to ruin my record, a spotless record. I think it's very interesting here that um supposedly and this is very hanky how they found this out about the spikes and breakups from like that's a Facebook data place. He doesn't count.

Social psychology doesn't count. I agree, But it doesn't make a little bit of sense. And I could see this being true that generally dumping someone or getting broken up with can happen on any day of the year, but there are spikes in early December, in early March because of Christmas holidays, in spring break. Yeah, and technically you could see that being true. There has I'm sure it's true at least on Facebook and yeah, this is a pretty big day to pull. But it's like, that's so lazy.

It's lazy, but I could see it because it's it makes a little bit of sense that you would not want to go through the holidays with someone that uh and you send a thing to. And this is important to point out, like when the breakup happens, when that talk or these days text message or phone call happens, that is the end of something for maybe both of you,

but definitely one of you. Yeah, sometimes most of the time that that actual act of saying we're breaking up, that's at the end of many, many weeks or even months or even years of contemplation about whether or not

you want to still be with this person. Right, And that's why being broken up with is almost across the board way harder than breaking up because by the time, like you said, by the time the person who initiates the breakup initiates the breakup, this is this is at the end of a long road of decision making, whereas the other person might have been blissfully unaware or at least willfully ignorant um or not willing to address the issues. And so they are one way or another largely caught

off guard by being broken up with. So the person who does the breaking up has already gone through all these stages of grief of separation, Whereas now it's this person, the person who's just been dumped, it's their time to go through. Right. So if you're if you're doing the dumping, like the hour after you have that conversation, you're like, what a relief, I'm I'm starting over. Let's go get some gin, whereas the dumpy is like that, goes get

some jew. That begins, That begins their process. Although the only thing I'll take issue with that whole line of thought though, is that a lot of people, even that might get dumped, aren't like what like they may have known and just didn't want to admit it or weren't brave enough or strong enough to do it themselves. Um and I agree with you on that. I think that there's still a thread that they had not been preparing themselves just by being insane, denial, unwilling to address it,

face it. Now they have no no choice but to face reality, whereas the person who did the breakup was like facing reality and coming to terms with it quietly and then now it's your right, which brings me back to my original point, which is Christmas and spring break make a little bit of sense because the person who was desperate to get out of a relationship and break up with somebody, they're staring at those Christmas holidays and

that first week of descend rolls around. They're like, I gotta do this now because I don't want to travel a lot of time with this person and get through the whole gift thing, and the holidays are just it's tough to be in a relationship that's a lie. Well sure, because I mean, holidays are so about like connecting and feeling and warmth and all that, and if you're faking it or have to fake it, you know, some people

are like, I'm not going through that. I also saw an explanation in Harper's Bizarre of All Places that some people may do that because of the pressure of coming up with a really good gift, that the relationship is not worth the pressure of coming up with a good gift outweighs the value of the relationship to those people.

Or there are some people who don't want to put their significant other through that, so they just break up proactively, which also means that they didn't value the relationship that much either, But at least in their mind, they're not doing it for themselves. They're doing it for the other person because they don't want to put the other person through that that sure of having to get the perfect gift. Yeah.

I've never had that thing either, where you start dating someone and it's like a couple of weeks for their birthday or Christmas, and you'r and then that pressure of like, man, how do I play this one? You know, a couple of after a couple of weeks, yeah, this person? Or but how do how deep do I go on this gift? Here? I don't really know you, So I got you a basket of socks. Everyone loves socks. So here's an Amazon gift card forty eight fifty right after a couple of weeks.

That's a little that's a little close to come up with a perfect gift or even be expected to. And I did mention breaking up by text or whatever, like you would suspect if you were born before nineteen five, like myself, Um, you break up in person supposedly about seventy at the time. Post if you were born less than fifty percent the time you're gonna do that in person? And they say generation? Why whatever that is? I think it's millennials, is it? I'm pretty sure when did they

name them? The like? Do they know what? Like? Does my daughter have a generation already? I don't know like a name. I'm sure somebody out there is your daughter's generation. You're annoying? No box her in right? Well, you got a pigeonhole, folks. Let her grow up, be her own person. But if you are gen y, you're more likely to do it over the phone. Uh. And of course this says a searing instant message or an email. I think

these days you would call that a text. An email is the lowest percent wise and compassion wise for four of people. That's the worst email. What was as pretty bad? Email is as bad as it gets? Is it? Sex in the city? Where it was a sticky note? I don't remember, feel like I didn't see the movie Sticky Note? Break? I think? So, um, should we take a break? Yeah, let's take a break? Man. This is going really really

well so far? Okay, alright, Chuck, So we've talked about when people break up, how they break up, why did they break up? Well, actually, there's one more, Okay, I think pretty important thing about the how, which is men and women. Women tend to present And this sort of makes sense too if you want to be stereotypically, you know,

stereotypical about it. Women to to present a list of grievances, here's all the things wrong with you both pretty much, whereas men, uh, it's a little more uh supposedly a little more nebulous. Where the magic go. Yeah, there you go. That's apparently. The differences as far as like rationale for breaking up and these are so macro level and broad and how we talk about it. It's a little embarrassing to even do. But to talk about this stuff, I know I would do this. Some women do this, right, No,

it's absolutely true. Um, that's but I feel like when you talk about this, people can find themselves in the contours of thinks of all if you put all this stuff together, if you just took one study and said that this is definitive, people should punch you in the kidney. Agreed, but not really. Don't punch anybody. You know, everyone. Over the last almost eleven years of stuff, you should know, I've said a lot of things that make it sound

like I'm inciting people to violence, friendly violence. So I was joking every single time. Why someone said something, I just I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I was never ever actually serious and saying hit somebody in the head with attack camera or someone in the Actually, I'm kidding all the time, except for when you recommend that you pants somebody, And I was kidding even then. To have a classroom or that's psychological abuse.

It's physical, but it's more psychological than anything. You've ever been pants in front of people? Yes? Really, yes, And I can tell you it's psychological. I don't think I've ever been pants. Boy, I can't imagine anything more horrifying than being pants. What's underwear? On what? I can confirm that because I can't remember being pants. I just remember that I have been pants. So I think I just immediately blocked out everything. Yeah, no story, no story there.

Um okay. Uh So if you get broke en up with um, you will feel And we're gonna talk about the science of a lot of this because it's very similar to overcoming addictions sometimes but um, of course depression and anxiety, uh sometimes suicidal thoughts, sometimes homicide. Oh sure, that's a that's an outcome and the worst case outcome that and suicide of breakups. But they are directly related

to breakups. That's how bad breakups can be. Yeah. Uh And apparently you know when people do right in about getting dumped and stuff, always say, you know, it's the most trite thing in the world, but like time is the only thing that really helps, Like ice cream and stuff like that is good, but like it really does

decrease over time. However, in studies, um, eight weeks after being dumped in this study, people still had signs of clinical depression, and twelve percent appeared moderately or severely depressed. So depends on the relationship along you're in it, how much it meant to you, what kind of person you are. But it can stick around for for a bit, it can so. Um. The thing is, though, there are things you can do to help accelerate the healing process, and

we'll talk about those at the end. How about that. We'll make y'all wait, all right, So, um, where are we at, chucker? We at the the well the attachment styles. I think it is interesting because um, we did talk about like gay straight cis gendered. Uh, you know, on the gender spectrum, maybe none of that matters. Maybe what matters is what they call your attachment style. That's that's what this says pretty plainly, that that's what it comes

down to, how you attach yourselves to other people. You can be a needy, clingy dude, You can be um a avoidant woman, or you can be either one of those things anywhere on the gender spectrum. That's the thing. Like the the idea that women are clinging men are distant is is fabled. Yeah, it's at least ham fisted. Yeah,

I think so. It's it's sort of that thing in social science that bothers me, which is like you're either this or this right, like one thing or the other, and really all you are as a white college student, that's what they really mean. Yeah, we had a little time on their hands, right, you needed extra credit. But there are two supposedly again two things um attachment styles, anxious attachment and avoidant. Congre points out like that's two ends of a spectrum, and you can fall somewhere on there.

There's actually a it's pretty straightforward. It's um uh the oh oh I s I believe or O s I. It's a scale where you pick how your relationship is best described by a series of ven diagrams, and one

circles you. One circle is your significant other, and they're just increasingly together, from just barely touching too almost completely merged into one single circle, and you just circle the one that best describes your your sense of what your relationships like, and that supposedly gets your your spectrum replacement

on the spectrum of attachment across. So interesting, So it's real subjective and self reported, so that is to say, not scientific, right, Unfortunately, um, Supposedly two thirds of women initiate divorces. Uh, and this article says that might give them a statistical edge over getting over a relationship because they initiated the breakup, so they've been in the process already.

Maybe that's what I think she meant. I think so, I'm just not so sure that just because a woman initiates a divorce, it may have been after years of systematic abuse, you know, which may not mean like she's so ready to get over this uh quicker than he might be, right, you know, Yeah, No, I mean you can't just say, like if X, then I with this stuff. It's relationships sir as messy as as humans get. It's

a relationship. Yeah, that's all you need to say. Well, let's talk about the brain a little bit, because this is where it does get a little more interesting, I think, slightly god slightly more scientific. Uh. There was a study in two thousand eleven by neurologists at the Einstein College of Medicine which sounded totally fake, but it's not. I have sounds made up for written down. It's in the bronx. Yeah, there's also they were also anthropologists from Rutgers and Sunny

to legitimize things. Oh, in this study its Rutgers is legitimizing things. We're in trouble. Is that? Is that? Really? I thought Rutgers was all right? Or am I confusing it with toughs Ah, you're probably thinking Princeton, Okay, both in New Jersey schools. I thought Rutgers was the public ivy Okay, sorry, Rutgers I tried. Then they're gonna be so mad at me. I've hung out at Rutgers. I've been there people, so you know what you're talking about. And exactly what is it like the Detroit of New

Jersey colleges or something that's not untrue? Okay? All right, he don't disagree. Boy, we're gonna get killed. That's okay. So this study from Einstein College of Medicine found that just looking at a photograph of an ex partner caused um, the second somo somato sensory cortex and the dorsal dorsal posterior insula. Jeez uh. And these areas process physical discomfort.

They start lighting up. The same thing as happens is when you get physically injured, basically like you are in actual, legitimate pain as far as your brain is concerned, in the midst of a breakup, at least when you're stuck in an m r I machine and showing a picture of your recent acts, which is a big deal now with social media, because every modern article I read about breakups and getting over them talked about what a deletrious effect social media will have on your recovery process. Are

you taunting me? Because the stuffs everywhere? Now. It used to be easy. You could just throw everything in a shoe box and set it on set it on fire, and send it down a river and a little boat made of rage. Um, But you can't do that anymore because they're everywhere. No, but that's that's tip number one from psychologist Guy Winch, author of How to Fix a Broken Heart. Stay the h off of social media. Do not stalk your X on social do not check in,

like just separate. Imagine that would be really hard because in the old days, it was just left to your imagination to think about how much fun they were having with you know, now you can see pictures of the nine new boyfriends that she has. Hum but yeah, you're right now, or you know, maybe it helps people. I don't know. I think it's imperative that you not do that to help to help. Like, it's not like watching them on social media will prevent you from ever getting

over it. I think no matter what you do, you're going to eventually get past this. But all you're doing is prolonging the process, and that like unnecessarily uh. And then also when you were on the f m RI machine and they did brain scans from people who have been broken up with recently, they found that very much similar to people overcoming like an addiction to cocaine. Uh, and that that same circuitry is of overcoming addiction is

just lighting up. It's that potent. Yeah, so so far with this m r I study from Albert Einstein came up with is that you were in physical pain from the breakup, and you're the same centers that are activated by addiction cravings with draws are activated by the breakup as well. That's astounding. Yeah, And this weird mental cycle happens basically when you do look at like a photograph of a uh what they say, a former lover right

over like the burger king laying rug. But you will, you'll see the photo and the weird thing is you'll immediately get a reward. You will get a dopamine hit, like a pleasurable feeling by seeing this person. And then you realize, oh wait, well then you get sad all right immediately afterwards? Uh and then that sagnus sagness. Where did that come from? It is a little saggy feeling that triggers the brains ventral tech mental area and the nucleus uh acumen bins acumen bins. I think so, I

know we've run into that before. We just talk about the brain a lot more human beins. I think we figured out the brain though, right, so we stopped. We were like do um, But the these two things working together regardless of how I mispronounced them. They trigger the urge to see that person, so you get sad, and then your brain lights up in two areas and then you go, hey, I remember that dopamine hit you get from looking this picture. Why don't you just give him

a call and see what's going on? Right? You want the real stuff? Go go? They also those two areas apparently also UM are analytical as well, so they're responsible for rehashing the the relationship, but apparently they're not very realistic because most people, when rehashing the relationship, highlight the good parts and forget about all the bad parts. I kind of have tended to do that, I think everybody does.

I don't understand why. I don't know. I don't agree with that, like Emily, and when we of course, I've been married so long the subject never comes up anymore. But I was always like, oh, with the old girlfriend, what was so bad there? And then if I really thought about it, I would remember where She's always like,

oh that was awful? Yeah gotcha? Well she's smart. Yeah maybe so I'm dumb dumb so but but okay, so even and you're not dumb dumb, even if UM like you represent a third of people or a half of people who do real when rehashing, only think about the good stuff and forget about all the negative stuff, like

what is that? Why does that even happen? It's bizarre if you think about the personality thing, like if I tend to be optimistic maybe or yeah, yeah, I guess that's a pretty good explanation to tell you the truth. What I was going to say is if you look at relationships or romantic love as um a a evolutionary drive to pair and mate successfully over and over again and to stay together, that would bring you back to this person that you've already connected with, rather than making

you go look for another mate. That makes sense, So may be it's kind of like a backstopp or fail safe for breakups evolutionarily speaking, right, like I was so close to having nine babies, Like I really want to start all over again, right, Which is funny because that means that Emily is more evolved than you in that sense. Yeah, in every sense. But the end of that mental cycle, basically though, is those areas light up that say go back and see that person. Then you are immediately unsatisfied

and about the fact that that's not happening. That's when you're a pre frontal cortex trips into gear and that's when you get angry. And it's just that mental cycle that starts seeing that photo on a social media platform and ending up upset in the end. But UM, the same study led by Helen Fisher, found that UM, after

over time, the same process is greatly degraded. I think they did a follow up in well months, Congress says, uh, I found that the whole process and in all of the neurochemicals and the brain regions are much less active, which again just time, give it time, right. But if you don't give it time and you do the thing where you do get back together, UH, that that can be great. You know it's UM. Sometimes you can work it out and people can't change UM. But there's a

big caveat there. Well, right, go ahead, no no, no, no you you say yours okay, because I think I'm talking about something else. So UM. What I saw was that if you get back together, rather than saying like this is a fresh start, we're gonna try this over again, UM, we're gonna really make a go of it. If you do that, all you're going to do is just walk right back into the same pitfalls and pratfalls because the separation probably did nothing or virtually nothing to your individual personalities,

which are the source of all of your conflicts. So it's not like you just magically worked your conflicts out and you're getting back together there and everything's fine. That's just a charade. But if you get back together and say I decided I love you the way you are and I don't want to be away from you, and I just accept you for you, and I accept our relationship with all of its problems, you're probably going to

have a successful reunion. If you go into it like all of our problems are solved because we broke up. You're just going to do the same thing again down the line. And that's apparently a fairly frequent thing. That something like six or some crazy percentage of UM younger the younger generation generation. Why I guess um the process of breaking up the majority of them that that breakup

involves getting back together multiple times, not just once. Yeah, so they're you're getting back together and just going through the same pattern. I think there's a field of thought and psychology called scripts. These are scripts that we're playing out one another scripts, and if you don't alter the script, you're gonna go through the same script over and over again. Uh, You're you're working out the same things from your past or from your childhood against one another, and you're not

doing it in the right way. So all you're doing is creating conflict. And that doesn't just magically go away because you spend a couple of months apart. You have to just say I love you for who you are and we're going to just just keep going. Yeah, I think what I was gonna say was, Um, don't they think though? That that also depends on just what kind of person you are in terms of thinking. Either people can really make substantial change in their lives or they can't.

That's how how you deal with a breakup, which we'll talk about in a minute. That sounds like a good place for a break I think so too, all right, before we get to that, what we were just talking about before the split. Um, this is one piece of data UM from the same sex couple community. Supposedly from studies, they do think that same sex couples are better at staying friends. Yeah, I saw that after a breakup, which particularly UM lesbian couples, yeah, and then gay men and

then straight couples are like, forget about it. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Can you really be friends after And it all depends on how intense and how long and and how kind of a person you are, But um, yeah, it's interesting when I meet people that legitimately are friends with people that they seriously dated years later. It's pretty rare,

I think. Actually, I think it's too. I think it seems less rare because you see it on TV shows a lot, you know, um, And it's also almost aspirational, like, oh, look at how like how laid back and like with these people are that they can be friends after this, you know. Um, I think it's pretty rare. Actually, I think it's an idealized form because people like to you like to think that like you're on good terms with everybody in your life. I think that's usually the person

breaking up though. There it's like I'd like to still be friends, whereas the person getting broken up with it like or you could get it by car, right, yeah, and that would solve the problem. Um. And then sticking with the whole same sex straight thing, are we saying straight? Still? I don't know that doesn't feel right, does it. It doesn't, So let's just say same sex and hetero. Yeah, hetero, there's a there's a clinical name for it. Boy. Um

so uh. The time and marriage seemed to be the two greatest indicators, at least as far as this one study I saw went um for the likelihood of staying together over long periods of time. Like all relationships, same sex and hetero um man woman, all of them are in at the greatest risk of breakup within the first year or two, and then it starts to drop precipitously. But I think married hetero couples have a fairly low rate of a low chance of breaking up over time

is pretty much flat the whole time, um say. And then with same sex couples, the same thing happens. That the chance to break up is pretty high at the beginning, and then it starts to come down, and then it's basically tracks with hetero couples for marriage. So marriage is kind of the factor. Time is a second factor, but then time stops being a factor after like thirty or forty years. For unmarried couples both hetero and same sex, they started to break up after year like thirty or forty,

Like the chance of a breakup increases. Yeah, but once you get married, once you get a ring on it, um over time, over like you know, decades is what we're talking about. Your chance is almost nil of of breaking up all right, like less than I think a percent. But that doesn't sound right because that the like half of all marriages into divorce. Yeah, this thing was way off, but maybe that's when taking into account maybe that's frontloaded by all the divorce that happened the first five years

or something like that. Yeah, OK, that would make a little bit more sense. They do find that your chances of getting over a breakup or adjusting to that new post breakup life, um, really centers around regaining your sense of self. Um that when you couple up with someone. Uh. It's not saying you can't have a sense of self anymore, because it's very healthy too. But there's an inevitable um absorption and morphing that happens, and a little bit of

your sense of self goes away when you couple. Yeah, all the same friends, the same phone number, yeah, and the same madre yes. Yeah boy? What about couples that share the email address? Yeah? You mean I have one really never had one, But you have your own too, Well, yeah, we just have our own, but we have our shared one too. I think I'm talking about the people that just have the shared address. I've always found that interesting. Yeah, I'm judging. I don't know anybody who just has a

shared address. I don't get why people would have the same one. I guess I just always Emily says a mind spring address. Wow, is it Emily at MindSpring dot com? No? And that is the truth, because I'm not saying that just to keep people from emailing her. But she's she had it for so long and I make fun of her all the time because she still pays like twenty dollars a year for this what And she was like, I've had it for so long that I just can't

give it up. Well, that's why people stay on Facebook. Yeah, Like, I'm not changing my email address. There's like many memories there. It's like even that just contech list and every email. Like, I don't know, I just think it's funny. I was like, where's that money going? Who owns mind Spring? The air of the mind spring fortune? He can count on twenty

bucks a month back of cigarettes every months because oh man. UM. And then for recovery, uh, the the whole stress related growth thing that can happen with recovery, which is UM. And I think women tend to be more apt to do this than man. But like, all right, you know what, I'm free now, I'm gonna do all those things that I lost while I was with him. It didn't have time for my friends anymore. I lost connections with them. I didn't do I didn't fly model airplanes or RC

airplanes any I'm gonna drop some weight. I'm gonna start eating healthier. The post breakup weight loss is a huge, huge thing. It is, and partially from stress, but partially just because like I'm gonna make myself the best I can be and I'll show her or him. I think it's also like, um, just as simple as like more free time, you know too, and something to do that is, you know, exercises also stress relieving. UM, you might not be eating as much because your stomach is tied up

into stress. Not so there are a bunch of reasons for it. But here is that here's where that um, that part you're talking about earlier I said we would get too kind of kicks in is how much of the self you identify with UM does relate to how well you handle a break up, how much of your how much of the U is the we in the relationship? And what they found is that that's a huge part of it, but more significant is the amount of growth

that happens while you're in a relationship. Like you can share a tremendous amount of the same self with your significant other and grow as a person as a result. And if you do that, UM, you're actually going to have a harder breakup because that we that that uper attachment UM that led to that personal growth is related

to that other person who's now gone. Whereas if you were even if you were totally in messed with another person, but you didn't grow much personally, if you experience a burst of growth after the breakup, you're going to have the easiest breakup of all. Even though you were super in messed with the person, you weren't growing. But then you grow afterward. Now that period of non growth is related to that person who's gone, And you can be like, so long zero, I'm gonna make myself a hero. Yeah,

do you see sure? Did they come across? Yeah? Because sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things, which is pretty funny if you think about it, there really is UM. In two thousand, they did a study at Northwestern University where they did find out though that UM. They asked people, I believe, how bad do you think this breakup is going to be? If you if you you know, you're

in a relationship, what if you broke up? And then they found out that they weren't as bad off as they thought they would be, which is encouraging, it is, but also think about this, chuck, These vultures who are running the study where like, you're in a relationship, just just we're going to study just in case you guys break up, And so they would get that info, that self reporting info about how bad the breakup would be, and then they swooped in upon the breakup there like

how bad is it? Tell us? And the person was like, well, this is as bad as it is. And it was almost across the board, not not anywhere near as bad as the people thought it would be when they were in the relationship, which is pretty surprising. And what was even more surprising is the more in love you are, the easier it's going to be relative to how bad do you think it will be during the relations, Which makes sense if you stop and think about it. Yeah.

I thought the other interesting thing too when we were talking to out, um getting over a breakup in your sense of self that's closely tied to how you feel about rejection and um, there are a couple of I mean more than a couple of ways. But if your reflection of your how you think about rejection is tied heavily into how you feel about yourself, So there's some people that might be rejected and it might devastate them because they start to analyze themselves and what did I

do wrong? And what's wrong with me? There's a whole other camp out there, And I think this goes into personality and ego and all that stuff. But you call these people healthy or sociopaths. Oh you think so? Maybe I just we just put both of our cards on this table. Then. But the people that are like, yeah, I got broken up with and I but and I got rejected. But you know, as happens that happens in life.

People get rejected. It's not because of me, I thought everyone you know, so you find it, you find this quote sociopathic. I learned that two people can both be quality individuals, but that doesn't mean they belong together. That's sociopathic to you. That's that was Oh wait it says you said that it was dead Bundy Patrick Bateman. No, no no, no,

I don't think it necessarily means you're a sociopath. But I think someone with that is a true sociopath would probably be way more apt to be like, oh yeah, well it was them, not me. Yeah, it's like it's fine, breakup. There's a sub subgroup to that sociopath as you call it camp, and they are like, well, breakups happen. Um, I heard what the other person said, and there's some things that I feel like I need to work on, Like sin, I was a terrible communicator, so I'm gonna

work on becoming a better communicator as a result. It's called stress related growth is what that's called. Where you're growing out of this horrific experience. Um, and that's healthy, that's super healthy. But they the key is what's unhealthy is to say this was all because of some fatal flaw that I have, that's part of my personality that I'll never be able to get rid of. And so all I'm going to do is poison every relationship from here on out, and I'm just gonna build walls and

keep everybody at a distance. And that's just some people do as a result of a breakup, and you can't do that. Even if your brain starts to go that way, this research says, stop it. Don't you have to disassociate yourself become the sociopath. I guess if need be to say, this is not because of an inherent flaw in me that's uncorrectable. Even if the person was right, even if they're like, you're a terrible communicator and you have serious mommy issues, that doesn't mean that you will always be

a terrible communicator with serious mommy issues. You could work on those post breakup and become a much better s O to the next person or whatever. The key is not not being a fatalist, like there's nothing you can do to change. And then also you should evaluate whether the person was saying that in anger, how much faith

you put in their opinion of you. There's a lot of factors that you need to take into account before you take on that kind of thing that just puts you in the bottom of a well where you could conceivably hang out for the rest of your life if you're not careful without copious amounts of therapy, agreed, or turning the drugs and alcohol, which is a big, yeah, big thing that a lot of people do. Jim cuts both ways. Uh, should we talk about some of these

tips from this guy psychologist Guy Winch. Remember number one is, um, don't check up on them on social media. Here's why. He says that this will reinforce your excess presence in your mind and will make it harder for you to stop fantasizing about your broken relationship. You're basically just like literally keeping them right there in front of your face through social media. Yeah, which is why it's a bad idea to avoid creating mysteries about why the breakup happened.

And again, this is along those same lines of just keeping your ex like forefront in your mind, which is hard. I mean, it's gonna take a little while. It's makes day to pop up and just be like, well, they're out of my mind. That's sociopathic. Yeah, even if you're the breaker upper, Um, you know, it doesn't mean that

you don't have a process to go through as well. Sure, you know, but That's why he says, avoid creating mysteries like it's it's probably going to happen, but like be mindful when it's going on and be like enough, I'm gonna go work out, yeah, or go drink some gin or both. Uh. Number three, Make a list of all

the comper this is a good one. Make a list of all the compromises that you had to make that you don't want to make again, and start to think about, like, yeah, you know, when I was with this person, I felt like I could never really have my real sense of humor out in public because they thought it was loud. The counters that that um that rehashing, that just focuses on the positive. It cuts the legs out from under

that cutting legs. What about number four? Do the things that used to bring you enjoyment is kind of what I was talking about earlier, even if they don't seem interesting now. That whole thing where like, jeez, I used to really love pottery and throwing clay, and I just I quit doing it once I started dating Josh. Yeah in my house uh, And Josh hated it when Chuck went to the Potter's Wheel because it reminded him of Ghost and Josh hated that movie, so he wouldn't allow

me to do it. But you know what, I'm gonna reclaim that pottery wheel, which is ironic because I was always walking around our house just like Patrick Swayzey in that scene. But I still hated that movie. Oh that was more like the Chris Farley chipping Dale Patrick Swazy version.

Um number five, remove reminders, Um, this is the box that you will burn, which is now just a your laptop in the fireplace, right in your smartphone, and then like reconnect with your friends, like, yeah, you left him in the dusty years ago, but they're still alive and

they probably wouldn't mind hearing from you. Yeah. The problem here is is if you truly do have a mix of friends that you both love, and it's not like I didn't leave behind all my old friends or the worst case scenarios like all of my friends are from you. Now what do I do? Go down to the Y m c A and make some new friends? I guess. So I found this one last study I thought was interesting, The best way to get over a breakup according to science.

This is actually published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology. UH and they tested a bunch of strategies. We're getting over a breakup, twenty four heartbroken people. They just thirty seven that had in and at least a two and a half year relationship, so pretty significant. Some were dumpy, some were dumpers. And they said there were three strategies. One is too negatively re appraise your ex. I just

think about all the bad things. Um. The other one was called love reappraisal, which is, uh, believe in read statements like it's okay to love someone I'm no longer with, It's all right. And then the third was distraction literally the ice cream and movies drake, the black mirror trick. And then there was the fourth prompt, which was the control, which was don't think about anything. Of course means you're thinking of the state of March about I don't think

about anything really, just undermine the science of that. Clear your brain. So those were the four prompts. Then they showed everyone They hooked everyone up to an E e G machine, showed them photos of their exes, and they measured the intensity of emotion in response to that photo, and then had them use these different prompts to see like which one works best when they looked in the people who were not thinking about anything, they were bleeding

out of their eyes, sucking. They were um And according to the readings, all three, all three of the strategies significantly decrease their emotional response through the photos relative to the control. Um. If you looked at your ex in a negative light that first one, like they was such a jerk, you had a decrease in feelings of love. But you left in a worse mood like that drudged up bad feelings like you you wasted your time or something that maybe or just like just really took me

off thinking about all that stuff. Right, you know? So now did dump study some clay? That's right? Uh, distraction made feel made you feel better overall, Um, but didn't that have much of an effect on how you really felt about them? You just didn't leave in a necessarily a bad mood. You just got ice cream and watched funny movie good enough, which is fine. But they said that that doesn't do anything long term to help you recover, just like a temporary whatever does it prolong it? Though?

Do you think? I mean, you know, as much as the people conducted it said, it's a form of avoidance that is shown to reduce the recovery. Okay, so it would prolong it. Then I guess everybody stop eating ice cream and watching Black Mirror. Uh. And then Love Appraisal showed no effect on your mood or how you feel about them, but it did dull the emotional response a little bit. So there's really nothing to do. Doesn't sound

like it. I saw a couple more tips. One is, you can write a letter that, under no circumstances will you ever send. Yeah, that's a good trick relationships. It's like anything bothering her. It also really works well for grieving too. Um, you just write a letter and you say whatever you want because you know for a fact that the other person will never read it. Dear, you can say whatever you want, and it's just like a

cathartic process that can help hasten things. And then also, why do sad songs feel so good when you're going through a breakup? Why do people seek out sad songs?

And the best explanation I saw, the best theory is that a song is a little capsule of emotion, and when you're seeking out a sad song, you're confronting the very emotions that you're probably stifling right then, and confronting it in such a raw form forces you to express those emotions i e. Cry and that helps you process them faster because you're you're not pushing them off any longer. You're you're you're you're expressing them, you're sorting through them.

So that's what sad songs make you do. That's why people seek out sad songs when they're down, and it actually helps hasten recovery. Lady and Red, I don't think that's a sad standing with me. That's the saddest song. You're like, it takes me away? That uh sailing by Christopher Cross A lady in Red and then um Dan Vogelberg's saying, same old anxide three set a song. Jerry knows that song. Those were two Christopher Cross songs. He's got two of the three sets. Lady and Red's not

Christopher Cross. I think it is five dollars Jerry. We're all nodding now, five dollars is on the table. All right, I'll look it up. Well, you guys will find out next episode whether I was right or not. I remember the guy's name. It's Christopher Cross. Oh, Jerry's rare is doing one of her rare speaking parts. She says, Chris Christoph Waltz, that's the actor. You know what's funny is I miss type something and it changed my search to Lady in Red Wings like red Wing boot must be

a fetish site, I guess. So yeah, Well, while Chuck's doing that, if you want to know more about breakups, go read about them, because that's way better than going through them. Uh. And since we said that, it's time for listener mail. Well no, no, First of all, that is Christin burg Um. Who is Krista Berg. It's a it's amazing burg Oh, I got you, not Krista burgh I'm sorry, but I think he was a one hit wonder. Probably he's British Okay art rock performer. Lady in bed

Night says, wow, So Christopher Cross did not have that song? No, he's great to look so no, no, no, no listener mail. Let's get the How the Money guys in here. So here we are everybody, as promised, we have a very special non listener mail listener mail segment. Instead, we're gonna hang out with Joel and Matt, the dudes from How to Money. So welcome guys. Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah,

I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for being here. Listen to those voices, right, podcasting voices for We've been working on him. It takes a while, you know, to develop a voice this golden, but it takes time, but you get there, you know, yes, you know, I've just learned the English language. So so how this all happened was my friend from high school is a mutual friend of yours, Matt keg stand Todd. He got in touch to via

social media and said, hey, I got these friends. It was sort of that thing that everyone dreads, which is like they have a podcast, would you have coffee with them? And then I listened to the show and it was great, and I was like, you guys are sort of doing and stuff you should know. He approach to finance and would you join our network? And it was kind of

that simple. Yeah. The thing is is it wasn't a mistake, right, Like we've I've been a fan of s Y s K for for years and the approach of just talking about things that you're interested or that you find, you know, a curiosity, and it was it was a huge draw to finding a way to talk about money in a way that was helpful, uh to folks out there needing help with their finances. Yeah. That's the key, isn't it, Just to like be actually interested in what you're talking about. Yeah, So, like,

what are some of the topics you guys cover typically? Yeah, so we cover all sorts of topics really more than anything, stuff that interests Matt and I, and so we cover Uh. We just realized that every time we got together, when we end up talking about money related issues, that's just kind of what we care about. And so we wanted to help people figure out how to handle their money better because it's like a huge issue, right, And so we talked about tax refunds, We talked about student loan debt.

We talk about how investing is like so much simpler than you think it is. There's this concertative effort to make it seem like it's a really hard thing, and people they get there, they get their panties in a lot because they don't know how to invest, and they decide not to do it at all because it's so hard, right, And so we want to just help people make it easier.

So it's like a public service. Basically, you for doing that because there is a lot of like scary thought and um it just fear of the unknown for sure with finances and a lot of people have problems with money. So to go out there and do that to to explain it to whipping into shape for people, um is

it's it's hats off. Yeah. I mean there's just not come station happening around personal finance, Like right, fewer folks were talking about it that that that need to actually be be discussing it, right, It needs to be talked about more. And I think you know, by leading by example to a certain extent, by talking about it and having conversations about it like that alone kind of demystifies

these you know, financial topics and principles. And you know, if we can do that and encourage conversation through the show, through the podcast, then you know, we see that as a as a huge win. Yeah. I think the danger for especially like um, younger listeners and millennials, that they just sort of shut it down because they might think it's boring or it's scary and so I don't even

want to like go there. And you guys do it in such an approachable way that it demystifies it and makes it accessible and it really kind of is like a public service in a way. Yeah, so I think it's so uh for Matt and I to to do this show right first, it just came out of what we generally talk about, like, Hey, what do we do

when we get together. We drink a beer and we talk about money, and so on the show we drink a beer too, which is part of our kind of approach, like let's just be normal human beings that talk about money, that care about this stuff. And so it's been really, honestly, it's been super cool to see the listeners respond, to see them taking action, to hear the sorts of moves

that people have made in their financial lives already. And the cool thing, the best part about the whole thing is that at the end of the day, they've they've empowered themselves, right, They they've made a change their own lives that makes their future self so much happier and even honestly there their self today because as you start to kind of take um, take the range of your own financial life back. Uh, there's something that's so free

getting out from under debt. There's like no better feeling than that, like you feel like the man doesn't own you anymore, you know, like you're not indebted literally and figuratively at that point. Yeah, but it's like, how do I start, how do I even like get the ball rolling? And that's what keeps people from like sitting on the couch and not doing anything. And so yeah, we want to be that motivating factor but also kind of explain

some of us that that typically are shrouded in secrecy. Well, you said, you guys talk about beer a lot on the podcast or it's a part of it's like a third third host kind of another character. Right, it's the Jerry of How to Money. I wish Jerry was a beer. Um, so she'd be long gone by now, though, Um so have what beer have you come across that is expensive

but worth the outlay in your opinion? I mean I would. So. One of the reasons we have the beer on the show is that it's an example of us focusing on enjoying life now while also balancing saving for the future. Yeah.

That's important. Yeah, because a lot of times folks get too caught up in u compounding interest calculators and they look ahead and they say, man if I don't spend another ten bucks this month like that back thousands and thousands down the road, and what happens is folks end up just depriving themselves of of things that they enjoy now or something, but with money, yes, exactly, And so pretty much any beer that we know we want to

have on the show. Certainly there's some that are better than others, but we enjoy every single one that we have on because it's a it's an example, it's an illustration of us taking time, taking time for ourselves, you know, like we don't do that enough, but but really it is a huge part of the show, and we felt that it was always important that we maintained that, Uh, that we maintained that in the podcast. The fact that you don't discriminate from beer to beer. I just I

love both of you. Hats off to you again. Well, I mean, you guys are the mystifying the process. You're making finance um interesting and funny, and uh I I feel great that you guys thought of us as an inspiration for doing that, and uh, I think you really are doing a great service. So, like, if you're out there in podcast land and finance scares you or bores you like, listen to How the Money for Real, because it can. It can be a great sidekick and a

teacher for you. Thanks. Thanks, guys, We appreciate it. And um, yeah, we're just glad to be a part of the network and we love what you guys are doing. Great too, man, thanks man, thanks so much. It's a lot of fun to be part of the family for sure. Yeah. And so they can find you, guys, what on Apple? Podcasts, on iHeart radio app everywhere they get podcasts, okay, great? And when do you publish Mondays and Wednesdays? What's your social Oh, let'sten how to Money pod? Pretty much everywhere,

I believe, yes. And the best part is our Facebook group, so if you want to join in there there's over a thousand people asking each other questions, commenting, and that's the community is super fun. Yeah. The fact that the community has sort of formed around the show. Yeah, there's folks helping each other out and you know, asking questions, answering other questions of stuff that they do know about.

That is super cool. Like between that and the emails that we receive of folks, you know, explaining how they have created a budget for the first time ever, or I'm starting to set aside money towards you know, putting money in my four oh one k uh, finally accepting the employer match, like just different things, Like it's so rewarding, it's huge. I wish I would have had this show because I was a late bloomer, uh in knowing anything

about finances. So if I would have had the show on my twenties, I'd be a lot further along then I am today. Goes. If only weekend time travel, you know, exactly getting the way back, I'd be richer and slimmer. Thank you for coming by you guys who appreciate it. Uh. If you want to get in touch with me, Chuck or Jerry, you can shoot us an email to stuff podcast how stuff Works dot for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com