The Massacre at Tiananmen Square

worked out that way. Yeah, And we also wanted to say that we grieved the death of George Floyd and everybody who's ever died unfairly at the hands of the police, and we stand with Black Lives Matter and anyone who's fighting for justice in the United States. Absolutely. So when you hear this episode on Tienamen Square and think, well, that could never happen much less in the United States, be careful because that's the kind of dangerous thinking that you can get us all in trouble. And on with

the show. Welcome to Stuff. You should know a production of I heart ratings as how stuff works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles w Chuck Bryan over there. Uh, and it's just the two of us, Chuck and I decided we can make it if we try just the two of us. Chuckers and I. How long did you plan that, buddy? It just came pouring right out of my brain through my mouth and just lay indo with a thud on the desk. Yeah, r I p to the great Bill Withers. Oh. I

was thinking more, um Austin Powers. M hmm, yeah, alright, what Austin Powers? He died a long time ago, right, You got me there for a second, Yes, you did. Mike Myers had passed. I thought Mike Myers had passed, and then I was like, wait to Dr Evil died? I was like, wait, Dr Evil's not real. It was

really confusing for a second there. Man. So I last night did one of the things that I loved doing as part of our work, Chuck, which is watched a really great documentary, paid for it, but you love that great There's a really good documentary by Frontline PBS show about tank Man, which you probably girl. Tank Man totally different kind of thing. This is not Lori Petty. This is an unknown person who no one, as far as anyone knows, knows their name. But even if you're familiar

with tank Man, just the name. You've probably if you live outside of China, seen this picture. It's a picture of just as a lone man um wearing a white kind of dress shirt and black pants, holding a couple of shopping bags to the side, staring down a column of heavy tanks that he has stopped single handedly just

by standing in front of him. Yeah. I mean it's one of those uh, indelible images that if you were you know, it still resonates obviously, but if you were, um, you know, cognizant of the news in nine then you could not escape this image or forget it. Yeah, And I mean what you were close to around eighteen or so, so I'm sure this really had a big impact on you.

And it was going on right yeah, I mean just just had graduated high school, so like this must have really kind of raised the hackles on the back of your neck and gotten you pretty worked up like the rest of the world, I would guess. Yeah, I remember it being kind of one of the first big political events that uh got my head out of my butt. Yeah,

it did that for a lot of people too. I mean, like what happened that that day or those days like think June three and fourth of nine, the communist regime that had a iron grip on the country and still does today, maybe even more so today, Um almost fell. It was almost toppled by popular uprising, and to stamp it out, the government went to the most extreme measures possible,

which was commanding the army to murder citizens. Unarmed, peacefully protesting citizens were gunned down in the streets like like like they were enemy combatants, basically in the in the their own city in Beijing, And it was just a horrific thing that managed to kind of trickle out and definitely captured the world's attention, pulled the world's head out of its butt, as you would say. Yeah, so you know, to tell the story, we need to go back in time a little bit. And big thanks to our pal

Dave Ruse for helping us out with this one. This is very good. In fact, it was on a different laptop and I kind of forgot it was sitting in my folder when I it has been there for like a month or so, right, yeah, it's been there a while, And then I saw it. I was like, oh wait a minute, we got tenement square on the burner. So yeah,

they did a great job. And we have to travel back in time to uh, previous to nineteen nine, when the sort of feeling among students in China was that, you know what, this communism isn't working out so great, and we want to start making a little bit of noise. And we're not saying to topple our government or anything like that, but we're saying, um, let's get the corruption in check, and let's maybe um get some free speech going on and see some free press and free expression.

And they thought they could get there. Uh, they thought they could get there, which is what makes this really really sad, among many other things. Yeah, and then even sider than that to me is they almost got there, you know, like this was I mean, this was close.

This is like a hair's breadth away. Where they brought this so so much to the government store step and laid this at their feet that the government had to at least consider, if not openly to one another, at least you know, to themselves, like do we just bow to the will of the people and just say, okay, we're gonna do things differently. Like it was a big, big deal. It was a big deal, and um, I guess preemptively, we should say we're going to do our

best with with some of the pronunciations of the names. Uh, they are tough and well as usual, we'll do our best and probably failed and stop short of being perfect. I think we we learned our lesson on the underground city. At least, we're not going to pronounce X like X right. Right. So the students had a little bit of wind in their sales because their college students, and that's what college

students are like, that's why we love them. And they thought they had um an Ally who was a pro reform leader and pretty high up in the Communist party and hugh yao bang sounds are about right, okay. Uh. He was forced out of power in eighty seven, though, and when he died in April April fifteenth, nineteen nine, the memorializing in the morning of his death is what really kind of kick started this whole process that led

up to June three. Yeah, and in the late eighties, what you call the president of China was named Dan Jao Ping, and he was he had been in charge for a while. But in addition to the president in a communist country, you also have the leaders of the Communist Party. They're not exactly like lateral, but they're pretty high up. You have like a prime minister, you have the leader of the party, the general secretary. Then you also have the president of the country, and Um Dang

was the President of China at the time. But there within the party and within the leadership of the country, including Hugh and he was kind of the face of this movement, there was this idea that, Okay, the Maoist Revolution happened. Mao was great, but we we can't run a country just living by these kind of lofty principles

that Mao espoused. We need to kind of get a little more loose gripped here, at least economically um And there was a whole contingent, led again by Hugh that that basically said, maybe we should kind of ease up on the government planning a little bit and let a little bit of free market go and see what happens. We really think that, like there's gonna be a lot less starvation, a lot less poverty if we just led a little bit of this stuff into there. So there

was this kind of progressive movement. But then when Hugh when this when these protests kind of started in. They basically showed Hugh the door, like you were saying he was. He was removed from office because he had kind of demonstrated that that level of like loosening of the grip on the people would lead to things like protests and demonstrations. But it was too late. They had opened the door now and then, like you said, when he died, that was that was kind of the the lip match that

got thrown onto this powder keg. And I take it you're on a first name basis now because it's easier to pronounce Hugh. Hugh was actually his last name. In China, they say last name first. Yes. So I'm doing I'm having my um my dumpling and eating it too. Oh man, that's the best way to have a dumpling. So uh and I learned something new today too, thanks Chuck. That's basically why I wake up in the morning. Uh So, what happened is uh, you know, he died on ape.

Bunch of students, like thousands of students got together in Tianamen Square to mourn his passing. And Tianamen Square, we should say, is it's an enormous place. It's the largest public space in the world. Right in the middle of Beijing. Uh, it is just it's the town center, unlike any town center in the world. Yeah, there's like no trees any where. It's just flat and then edged by enormous public buildings.

It makes you feel very small. Yeah, and it's also a perfect place to get like thousands and thousands and thousands of people together. And this is what happened during

the funeral celebration in Tianamen Square. And it didn't go on for too long before students started to sort of use this as an opportunity to not only mourn someone that they believed was going to champion their cause, but they said, we can use this now and let's just let's just camp out un let's hold some speeches, and let's sort of start giving our demands for a political reform, like throwing peace signs and just basically peaceful protests that

you would imagine students from. And most of them came from Beijing University, which from what I understand, is the the premier elite university in the entire country. So these were like the children of the elites, as it were.

There's definitely a measure of tolerance of this going on whereas had it been you know, just a popular uprising or popular protests from the start, they probably would have been treated a lot more roughly, and it certainly would not have been allowed to have go on as long as it had. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting you mentioned the um the sort of split and ideologies within the party, which is really interesting to think about now. Um,

but they were split about what to do about these demonstrations. Um. This was the biggest civil protests, longest running since communism had taken hold in ninety nine. And there were some people it wasn't just like all right, let's go in there and mow him down. There was a complete faction within the party that was like, you know what, Um, these are students and they want what's best for us,

and maybe we should listen to them a little bit. Yeah, because it's like you said, they were saying down with communism, down with the China Any's Communist Party. They were they were saying, like down with corruption, and you know, we wanna we want a little more free speech, like some really basic stuff that didn't require the entire system to be overthrown, which was I think another reason why they

were kind of allowed to continue. And then yeah, like you're saying, there were sympathetic members of the Communist Party, high up in the party who were like, no, no, we should just you know, maybe hear him out or just let it this thing fizzle out. But then on the other side was a guy named Lee Ping, and he was the he was the antagonist in this whole thing.

Most people paying him as the villain um, but I read an article about how he's actually the fall guy, that it was really Dang Jao Ping who was the president, who was the true architect of all of this, and that Lee Ping, while he gets all of the um notorious credit, yeah for this whole thing, he he he didn't. He didn't. He wasn't the architect of it. But he also didn't stop his boss, um Danjo Ping, from from carrying this out or from being the architect of it too.

So it's not like he was a good guy. He was easy to hate, I think from what I read, and it made him an easy target of the protests and then the aftermath as well. Yeah, and I think it's you know, I think people it's easy to paint a good guy and a bad guy in a situation like this, and he was painted definitely is the bad guy. And again we're not saying that he was some awesome person.

But on the other side was the Communist Party General secretary and his name was Zal's Yang and he was the one that was, you know, more sympathetic to the cause basically, Yeah, and so he was kind of holding back Danjo Ping's um worst impulses and saying like, no, we just need to kind of like approach this peacefully or whatever. And he got removed to Um, which I really think kind of highlights just how uh how much crossing or opposing Dang Jo Ping where it would get

you get your removed at best. And actually jaos Yang he Um spent when he was removed from office, he spent the rest of his life under house arrest, because I mean that's what happens when you are removed from office. There they just say go home and don't leave again here under political quarantine. Yeah. So, you know, they had

seen this happening all around them. The Soviet Union was crumbling. Um, they saw countries, communist countries, people just like these students kind of rising up and saying that they've had enough. So they were nervous and when zalox Yang went on, he went out of town, basically went on to Korea on a state visit. This is when Lee Ping said, all right, now is our time. This guy's out of the country, and he's like, basically, we can we can start the the first piece to toppling these students. And

it wasn't initially a violent piece. It was an ad. It was in April. It was an ad in the People's Daily, the state newspaper, and it was an editorial basically that just denounced the demonstrations. And that was their first sort of shot fired. Was your friend is out of town. Well they didn't say that, but because he was out of town, they said, we're going to run an editorial denouncing this. Yeah, And they basically said, look,

these students are being misguided. That the whole thing started earnestly as a memorial for UH, for Hugh Um, but that that it had been taken advantage of by probably outside agitators, maybe even like plants from other governments, who were fomenting like a popular uprising out of this um genuine you know, sorrow for this guy who was you know, a real real advocate for them Um. But regardless of how it started or what's going on. We can't we

can't abide this any longer. And if we do, there's going to be I think they put it, will never have another day's piece unless we act. Um. They didn't say brutally resolutely. Unless it's checked resolutely, they said, which is then in the margin it said, see brutally right exactly. Yeah, I mean like that's not checked resolutely? Is against a popular protest? Is this menacing stuff? Should we take a break?

More menacing stuff? All right, we'll take a break and we'll come back and talk about the effect that this editorial had right after this stop No, alrighty, So they ran this editorial. They said that the uh, they would be checked resolutely if they didn't disperse, and they thought that that would do the job basically, But all that

that had the complete opposite effect. Like literally overnight, people all over China, four hundred cities across China had people coming out and protesting because they were invigored by these students and what they saw going on in Beijing. And I think it says Dave had an estimate here of one inten citizens took to the streets and these were

people of all social strata, all walks of life in China. Yeah, yeah, one intend in Beijing, but then tends to hundreds of millions of protesters all pouring out into the streets and cities across China, like they had a huge problem overnight on their hands. Like they they people were like that was the that was that editorial was the exact wrong move. Move. Yeah,

it was the wrong move. And uh, things just kind of went on this way for a little while until I think about in mid May when Gorba Chef was coming to visit in China. So they said, this is the perfect chance, let's stage a hunger strike and Tienamen Square. And this was not a good look for the Chinese Communist Party. They were not happy that this is going on. What Gorba Cheff was going to pay the visit, Yeah, because I mean, you wanted to impress Goreby. He was

probably the most popular guy in the world. Right then in nine Um, yeah, they lost face and it was it was a pretty well done move on the part of the students who carried out the hunger strike. Um, but that that editorial that kicked all this off, that really kind of changed things. There was a huge turn.

There was a sea change in the entire thing when regular people started taking up this protest, because it started out as a student protest and now all of a sudden it was an everyday Chinese person protest um, and that apparently changed the entire attitude of the government towards this whole thing that was no longer paternal and kind

of head patty and um uh patient. It was like, wait a minute, I saw in this front line documentary that somebody said it was like, the workers are the ones who who put the Chinese Communist Party in power, and now it suddenly looked like the workers were about to take the power away from them. And this scared the bid Jesus out of out of them because again

this is a very um. They had an iron stranglehold over their population, and they were also there's a lot of corruption in the government too, so the the whole idea of being removed from power had a lot more at stake than just you know, losing power. Like there there was they these people that had done quite a bit that they might have to answer for after they lost power. You know, oh yeah, big time. They were. They were officially worried at this point, um, he still

had Zo calling for cooler heads to prevail here. Um. But and this is before his removal, just before but Leeping said, you know what, the only way to take care of this is by kind of cracking the whip in a hard, hard way. Um, martial law should be imposed. Students heard about this, and this is when the big, big protest at Tenement Square. I think they estimated like over a million people, one point two million people, um, students.

There were police involved, there were some military that we're protesting, and this is when everything really started to gain some momentum. Um. And you know what students thought was the right direction, but it turns out was a bad move. Probably yeah, I mean in high you can never yeah sure, yeah, yeah, I mean like like yeah now. But at the time, it was like, okay, we're gonna go to the mattresses rather than backing down. And they said, okay, we're gonna

escalate on our end as well. If they're gonna amass troops and invade Beijing, which is what they did, we're gonna meet them and try to drive them out. And at first it actually worked. There was a a first incursion into Beijing of about three hundred thousand Chinese soldiers. The Chinese military showed up in Beijing and tanks, armored personnel carriers, troop transport trucks, the whole shebang. The imagine three hundred thousand soldiers showing up in Atlanta and just

basically being like, everybody needs to go home. The thing is, everybod go home. This first probably this first um, this first incursion I guess into Beijing, UM didn't actually make it to the city center because the people in the suburbs, uh came out and swamped these army convoys and prevented them from moving forward and actually kept them there and gridlock of a sea of humanity for about four days. I think. Yeah, I mean it was a it was

a huge victory. Kind of right off the bat. They had UM you know, they they went after these personnel carriers and these tanks. They had children, they had older adults, they had They basically kind of paralyzed what they were trying to do and then decided to do a very kind of brilliant thing, which was appeal to the good nature of these soldiers as human beings. UM. I saw one article that that kind of guess that about six of the p l A soldiers were illiterate. Um, they

were uneducated. They were from out in the country, and these Beijing city folks would approach them and they would bring them food, and they would bring them things to drink, and they would send their children out to talk to them and say things like, you know, you should be defending us, you shouldn't be attacking us, you should join us,

And some of them did. Some of those soldiers stepped down and kind of quit on the spot, knowing full well that that not end well for them, And the majority of them obviously didn't right right, But even you know, even if they didn't step down and and quit, some of them did step down and mingle and talk. And I saw footage of them when they finally left on the fourth day, they turned around and retreated away from Beijing.

You know, a good third or half of the troops on these trucks that were driving away were waving to the to the people of Beijing who'd just been who just spent the last four days like feeding them and talking to them and basically trying to change their minds about this. Because I don't know if we made it we made it clear when the people from the Beijing suburbs swamped these trucks. This is a big non violent form of resistance. It wasn't violent, it was it was

a charm offensive. It was just straight up non violent resistance. And it worked, like it totally worked. On the one hand, it worked because the Chinese government hadn't given them orders to fire on anybody, and probably gave them orders not to carry out any violence against the people. Um and

that that's really why it actually ultimately worked. Because if if you're being met with that kind of resistance and you can't meet that resistance with violence, it's not like the soldiers We're gonna explain their position or the government's position to the Beijing residents and change their minds. There's nothing they could do but just sit there and then finally turn around and leave. And so at first, the uh, the residents of Beijing were kind of chugh with themselves,

you know, like like that really worked. This non violent resistance turned back three hundred thousand troops from China's equivalent of Arkansas who just showed up in China's equivalent of New York and um and and kept them from invading. Basically, yeah, so the government sees this happen, and they they're on

full uh, they're on high alert now. They're fully worried, and they see the riding on the wall that this could be the end of the Communist Party as we know it if we don't squash this thing once and for all. And so they said, all right, here's what we're gonna do. Let's send the army in again, just like we did the first time, except now you're going to get to Tienamen Square and squash this uprising. If they come out and meet you in the suburbs, um take care of things. However, you need to to get

to Tienamen Square, like full authorization to use deadly force. Yeah, and I saw again on that documentary they were saying like they were given guns and ammunition, and the ammunition they were given were um, thumb sized bullets. The kind of bullets that um from what I could tell, they were um what's that kind that like turned into like like circular saws inside people. What's it called? It's like a really common word. Everybody knows all the point. I

think anyway, they they were meant for like combat. The bullets they're using, these weren't rubber bullets. They weren't even regular bullets. They were like combat grade bullets that these the troops were given and you have to you have to remember to chuck. By this time, there's nobody now because Zoo has been removed. Um, there's nobody arguing against this impulse, at least not openly, and so this impulse is allowed to go and check. Nobody stopped and said, well,

wait a minute, wait a minute, this is crazy. We're talking about going in and slaughtering our own people. Um, we have to find another way. Nobody was saying that, and in fact, Lee Lee Paying was at the very least keeping his mouth shut, if not supporting this whole thing as well. Yeah, so you know, the students get word that this is what's coming, basically a second wave. They were victorious in that first wave. So they were,

like you said, they were checked. They were probably like, all right, bring it on, Well let's do the let's do the same thing again. We're going to charm you again. Yeah, pretty much. And they did the same thing. They had these they improvised these barricades at the entrance points. They blocked off roads with people with busses uh tired like stacks of tires and stuff. And on June third, the night of June three, the tanks roll in, the personnel

vehicles roll in. By this time, there are some rocks being thrown and some Molotov cocktails and stuff like that, and things start to get a little unruly, and the p l A just charged through and at nine pm the first shots rang out, and it was very clear, very quickly that they were just gonna mow people down. Yeah, but apparently even though it was clear to some people, to other people it was so surprising and just so utterly unbelievable that it took way too long for it

to sink in what was going on. I'm sure everybody was shocked. Yeah, So some people, i think, just started running when they saw people falling and bodies starting to pile up, But other people were still, you know, throwing rocks, and it hadn't really sunk in yet. And then ultimately, eventually everybody got it and they started to turn and run. And then as they would turn and run, the government there the soldiers would fire into their backs, keep firing

into crowds that are running away. Unarmed crowds maybe have rocks, maybe a molotov cocktails, set a bus on fire. But they don't have guns. They don't have machine guns. I was looking and apparently chuck, China has one of the strictest gun policies, um in the world. Like, if you're

just an average Chinese person, you are not armed. You could get a gun if you apply for one and the government gives it to you, if you have like a real need for it, like maybe there's bears that live around your house that keep killing your livestock or something. But if you live in Beijing, you don't have a gun. And it makes me wonder like would this have erupted into civil war if Beijing was armed, you know, um?

Or would it have been even worse? You know? Would they have fought back a lot more if they had had guns? Who knows. But the fact of the matters these people did not have guns, and they were shot in the back running away by government troops from their own government, from their own country. And this is just the first time this happened. This was in an isolated incident. Yeah,

so I read this article. UM. I think about three years ago there was a sort of first hand account from a writer from England named Sir Alan Donald, and it was declassified three years ago. He wrote this account on June five, so you know, we'll we'll finish up on what happened June three and fourth. But it was

a very fresh account of what happened. He was over there, and he got his information from a source who had spoken to a very close friend in China State Council who apparently previously had always proved very reliable, very even handed,

um and very factual. And the things that he would, uh, I guess leak um out to his friend, and the account of what happened is just like mind boggling that they were there were snipers shooting people in on their balconies that weren't even not down on the street protesting um. They said that there were snipers using street cleaners and things just sort of a target practice. Uh. They were young women who were begging for their life that were

bayonetted through the chest. There was one account of a three year old that was wounded and the mom was racing to try and help it and they mowed her down. Uh. They were you know, hosing body parts and entrails into the drains of the street. It was just they were mowing people down at like forty miles per hour, just running people over in these personnel trucks. And it just

can't be overstated what a complete and utter massacre this was. Yeah, I mean the end result of this was as on the high end, maybe ten thousand people civilians, almost almost to a person was were killed overnight from June three to fourth, and the violence that took place, and then on the next day, June four, unarmed, many of them shot in the back, just just killed and including Yeah, like, like you say, some people weren't even down on the street,

They were in their apartment. They just had the misfortune of having an apartment whose windows looked out onto ten m And Square. Uh, and who had caught the attention of a sniper on nearby rooftop. Like it was just just ghastly one of the worst things that any government's ever done to its own people, certainly in modern times. Um, it doesn't really get much worse than that. Yeah, So one thirty am, the army is finally in the heart

of Beijing. They have surrounded Tenamen Square. All of these protests are not all of them, Sure, some people got out of there, but most of these protesters are still there. Um there order to leave the they opened fire again. I think at this point they sent in something called the twenty seven Army, which the best the best I could find is that just as was a very um loyal division, apparently that would they knew that would just obey the orders no matter what. And so now they're

in Tiennement Square. They're throwing rocks, they're getting strafed by machine gun fire. And within a few hours and most of Tienamen Square had empty out. Uh, they were down to about three to five thousand students. They took a vote um the student union basically said do you want to go or do you want to stay? And most people wanted to stay, but the leadership said, no, we got to get out of here otherwise we're all going to be killed. Basically, yeah, they just said the ghost

have it, let's go um. And in retrospect, that was the smartest possible thing they could have done. There wasn't any anything that would have been gained necessarily by the slaughter. But they were all very surprised that they weren't just indiscriminately slaughtered themselves like they you know, a lot of people have been killed in Tianamen Square already and they

were cornered by the military. But then rather than just mow them down like had been done to everybody else, they were given an ultimatum that they could either leave now and and just dropped the whole uprising thing, or um they could be jailed, prosecuted and probably killed. So

they decided to go. And it makes you wonder like would it have had an effect if they had been killed, because these these must have been the very students from the elite Beijing University who were the sons and daughters of the elite leaders in China at the time. Um, So what repercussions would there have been had they died? But ultimately it was the right move, It was the smart thing to do, and the best thing to do

is for the leadership. These students themselves, they were in their early twenties, tops to say let's we should leave, and they did. Yeah. So, you know, Tienamen Square itself gets all the press and the and the historical record kind of lies in Tienamen Square, but uh, it was it was all over Beijing the um June four, like it was on June three. On June four, Some say that that's where the most loss of life happened and some of the bloodiest. H I was about to say battle,

but it wasn't even a battle. The bloodiest part of the massacre happened the next day in the surrounding streets. Yeah, for Tienaman Square to have, like you say, all the press, very little actually happened there. It was mostly in the

area around it in the rest of Beijing. Um. But the the street that actually runs in front of Tienaman Square, UM, shooting on Yeah, shooing on avenue it Um, it got the most coverage and has the most record of what happened because there happened to be a high rise hotel along shune On Avenue that that housed a bunch of Western journalists who were surreptitiously recording and photographing this whole thing and documenting it. Yeah, so they that was very fortuitous, um,

because you know, we'll get to tank Man later. But on this avenue, the protesters gathered and they started to get on the p l A troops demanding answers. The army said, all right, you need to disperse again or face the consequences. And once again, just like in the other instances the army just opened fire and they just barreled down the avenue and people were scrambling, they were getting out of the way, they were hiding behind trees and buildings, and there would be a little period of

calm and then people would gather up again. And this is what makes us also tragic, is the people would continually get the nerve to try again over and over. Yeah, and a lot of those people the next day on on shooing on Avenue UM, were the parents of these these protests or who they wanted to get into Tianneman Square to find out what had happened to their kids. They didn't They hadn't heard from him yet. They thought

maybe they were dead in there. So I think that might have been what drove them to to come back over and over again, even after being fired upon UM And I saw footage of this. There's like after that first wave, maybe even after the second wave, this whole thing went on a dozen or so times where the people would come back up and confront the military, the military to open fire them, they'd run away, and then the people would like gather their courage up again and

go do it again. At least after the first or second wave. Uh, there's an ambulance that shone like rushing to the scene, and they fire on that. And they seemed to have either killed or possibly injured the driver because it like years off course and runs into like a booth or some of some sort. So they were firing on ambulances that were coming to help the injured

who they had fired on just a few minutes earlier. Yeah, I saw one report that they uh one I'm not sure how it's split up, but one troop fired on their own officer and murdered him because I think he had shown a little bit of resistance or maybe the way I read it, it was a kind of even just like hey, what are we doing here, like a little bit of self doubt about their mission, and so

they murdered him. Man, I mean, imagine this like whether you're in America or the UK or Australia, Like, imagine your own army doing this to you, like showing up in your city and just opening fire like what I just nightmare situation. That would be. Yeah. Should we take another break? Yes, all right, we'll take another break, and we'll talk about tank Man and sort of the legacy of the massacre at Tenement Square right after this stop

stop you. So, like I said, Chuck, there was about on the high end, ten thousand residents of Beijing killed June three and fourth. Um oh really, Um yeah, I mean the account from the one guy said that it was at least ten thousand, and that was from his supposed source from inside the Chinese government. And that's that's just killed. That's not killed or injured. That's not just

total casualties. That's that's killed. Um. The uh, the government of China, whenever they did acknowledge that this even happened, which we'll get to in a little bit, they said, I think it was like to tote like two something, is what they said. And they included in that a lot of soldiers and officers. And it is true that there were reports of you know, some of these barricades that people had put up around Beijing where they there were enough people that they overran you know, troop like

troop transports and killed soldiers on board. So there were some soldiers that died, but far in away, the most casualties were on the civilian side, unarmed civilian side. Keep in mind, yeah, I think I saw the Chinese Red Cross initially said twenty seven hundred, but that was quickly squashed. Uh, and that even seemed super super low, right, So um, this is uh. That was June four that the worst

of the massacre happened. It was in broad daylight. And then June five, Um, things had calmed down some in the sense that there was not necessarily indiscriminate mowing down of people in the streets anymore. People had just basically resigned to give up and stay inside. The TENEMN protests

have been completely squashed. Um, And it was I guess calm as calumn as could be, considering that there were still plenty of like tanks and martial law in the area and on shooting on avenue, like a column of I think eight tanks or a few a few tanks, I'm not sure how many there were, um gathered into a line and sort of going down the avenue, and then just out of nowhere, this one guy tank man steps out of nowhere and just stands in front of the lead tank, and eventually the tank just comes to

a stop. And I guess there were This is all right in plain view of the Western journalists, of a lot of people who were watching this waiting for the tank to just run this guy down or to just shoot him with the machine gun, just basically treat him just like like you know, ten thousand or more other people have been treated in the last day, and to everyone's great surprise, it didn't happen. Instead, the tank just

tried to move. Yeah, so he stops the tanks. Uh. He's motioning, you know, like kind of get out of here. He's kind of sweeping his arm around and then, you know, this footage is just remarkable to look at even today. The tank tries to go around him, and like you said, then the guy gets in its path. The tank stops again, the tank goes to the left. They're doing this just surreal dance of the tank moving and the guy moving

in front of it. And then finally the tank stopped again, cut its motor, and the guy climbs up on top of the tank and starts yelling at the soldiers. One of the dudes in the tank, uh, pokes his little head out and they start talking, and I say, little head. I think he had a normal size head, but just from the the vantage point of the footage was a little head. Uh, or who knows, maybe he was a tiny headed person. It was smaller than normal. You can

never say. So they start yelling at each other and having an exchange, and the guy gets back down on the ground. Tank Man does. The tank starts this engine and he gets right back in front of front of it again. And that is when that very famous photo from Charles Cole is snapped of him just standing again with those shopping bags by his side, just as defying as the human being has ever been. And I mean this is after ten thousand of his fellow Beijing Beijing

ors have been killed in the street. And this guy said this is enough. Like that's the thing to me. The guy said, this is enough. I'm sick of this. S you guys need to go. That very clearly what the guy was saying. But the beautiful thing about tank Man is you can't hear what he said. You can't see you can't see his face, uh nearly enough to to even tell who he was. There's no way anybody saw who this guy actually was, um at least not from like a camera or anything. So you also couldn't

read his lips or anything. So it's left up to you and your imagination what this guy was saying and what he was doing, and then actually comes through in the fact that China, right after this incident, broadcast it

on TV. But they broadcast it as clear evidence of just how much restraint the Chinese military had shown in Beijing, and how all of the casualties that had actually come out of it were the fault and the on account of the these um rebellious anti communist uprisers, and that the military had really done a good job with us. But it really kind of underlines like you can put into tank man what you want, but far and away

the vast majority of the world. Because that Charles Cole photo quickly got out, we'll explain how in a second, the vast majority of the world was inspired by this guy showing courage. That that's how they took it, that this guy was saying, and not if you can do what you want to me, but I represent the real true feeling of the people of Beijing, are the people of China, of all freedom loving people in the world, I represent how they feel about you in that tank

and all the people who sent you here right now. Yeah, it was it was remarkable. Um So Charles Cole takes this picture, he is seen by some security officials that are on a rooftop across the street. And he knows this, and he's like, they're gonna come for my camera. Um, for sure, So he very smartly pops this roll of film out and hides it in the water tank of his toilet in his bathroom. I was, Oh, I don't know, I think can you imagine? I think the keyster would

be sought out sooner than the toilet tank, right. The first thing they did was probably bend him over and see what he had. So they did come, and they did compensate his camera, and they confiscated a roll of film, but it was from the day before, and he came back the next day and that that roll of film was still in the toilet tank. Yeah, I got it. Otherwise the world may have never seen this image. Yeah no, I don't know that that's necessarily true, because there's that

video footage of it that shows the whole thing. And did we say also that he um, have we gotten to the part where he's hustled off? Who cole tank man? Oh no, okay, well I just spoiled it. So I mean there is the video of it. But yeah, that that that photo that the world got to see because of Charles Cole's quick thinking, that that became like a symbol of you know, the tenam and square uprising, like tank Man just standing defiantly. I wonder if do you

know the release date of the video footage? No, I don't. I know that stuff leaked out pretty quick. I imagine that everybody was kind of like, ho, um, I'm just leaving Beijing for no good reason. I'm a Western journalist just traveling to Shanghai to fly back to London for no good reason. You don't need to search me for anything, and just got out of there as fast as they could. I just wonder if they released the footage after the

photo had become released. I'm not sure. I know that there were a lot of journalists watching that at the time, including just you know, UM text journalists when writers, I guess you'd call them um that that that were witnessing this and writing about it and memorizing and documenting it. Um. And the fact that they were left alive let this idea get out, because we'll see the Chinese government like washed a memory of this. This is a lot. It bears a lot of resemblance to um to the Tulsa

Race massacre. Yeah, you know, it just follows a lot of the same key points, but um to some up tank Man or to wrap up his story. Um, after this this, like you said, this weird dance goes on for a little while and he's just standing there and there's there in a standoff. It's between him and the tank. A guy runs it, comes up on his bike and you could tell he's just kind of like you, Okay, you need to get out of here. This is not

going to go well for you. And that kind of cues up a couple of other guys who run into the frame of this video footage and just grabbed tank Man and hustle him away. And there's some debate over who those people were and what became of tank Man. Some witnesses say, well, they were clearly you know, members of the Communist Party, you know, secret police, and he was taken away and executed. But if you watch the footage, to me, these are these are people who are getting

him out of there to help him. That's how it would Yeah. Yeah, So they think the fact that the Chinese government did not parade this guy around, hold a public trial and probably a public execution to make an example out of him, and the fact that no one has any idea what his name was and no one's ever said it was this guy definitively makes people think that he is still alive and hadn't told anybody that he he made it out of there alive. Basically, Yeah,

I really wonder. I mean, there have been various accounts over the years of who they think it was. Some people have even named individuals. Uh. Some people have said that no, he was executed. Some people said no, he wasn't. Uh. Some people said he was incarcerated, never to be heard from again, and we just there's really no way of knowing. Uh. It is interesting to read though, all the accounts of

what people think might have happened. Yeah, I like to know with that he was absorbed by a crowd and disappeared like live to live, not disappeared like disappeared like from the government's radar. Yeah, it's like at the end of Victory, the Great World War two soccer movie. Oh I never saw that one. Well, should I spoil it? Sure? I think I kind of did they win? All right? If you want to see this movie, don't listen to

this people. But the whole deal is as they stage the Allies prisoners of war stage the soccer match against Germany. But the real plan is that they are to escape during a tunnel in the locker room. Uh, this rag tag team of soccer players that the prisoners as symbol featuring Sylvester Stallone as the loan American in goal, and uh,

they think that they can win the soccer game. At halftime that they don't escape, they decide to not go and to play that soccer match and they win, and it's amazing, and the stadium is field is stormed and they are absorbed by the crowd and you see images of them getting hustled off and having like street clothes put on them over their soccer uniforms, and that's the end of the movie. It's great. So they were very fortunate that the crowd treated them that way, but they

didn't know that that was going to happen. No, they then that was one of the dumbest decisions ever made by a group of human beings in the world to try and win a soccer game instead of this game, because it doesn't matter. The soccer game doesn't matter, that matters. That was so dumb it's such a good movie based on a real life true story. You know, I have

no idea. I don't think so it has to be I've hoped so Okay, So anyway, Um, we don't know what became a tank man, but the the his his image, they think, or they say, actually inspired a lot of those um protests in Eastern Europe that had made the Communist Party so nervous for a wild chuck that um they actually inspired those protesters to go all the way and actually led to the downfall of the USSR. What he did not lead to the downfall of was the

Chinese Communist Party because they won. They they they went as far as they needed to go to make sure that they held on to power, like they went far beyond like any reasonable point and engaged in not civil war, a massacre of their own people, just to hold on to power and keep things the way that they were. But one thing that really changed that directly came out of this June popular uprising was a shift toward economic reform that they had said, Okay, you people, you want

some economic reform. You want a bigger shot at life, you want more, you want to make more money, you want you know, luxury brands build malls and open up stores here, We'll give you that. And they did. They opened up China to foreign investment. And I mean we all know how that story went. Um, this rise of China that we're seeing now and have been seeing for the last couple of decades directly came from the June uprisings and the decision for the government to say, okay,

we'll open up some economic reform. Yeah. And in the end, like we said, you know, up to and perhaps more than ten thousand people murdered, um at least six d people imprisoned. I gotta think it was much more than that. But that's from a human rights group called the Dii Hua Foundation and uh, you know, imprisoned for uh you know,

crimes against the government, um, re education camps, life sentences. Supposedly, in two thousand sixteen, a man was supposedly the very last prisoner from the Teneman massacre to be released twenty seven years later. But who knows the truth? And a lot I mean a lot of public executions, like making examples out of people, scaring the the Jesus out of the population, saying like this is what happens. Look, what

happens if you're a um, if you're anti government. But again they were they were doing in a was saying like, there's just a few people who were really against the government. We know you would never do this, and it really had this huge chilling effect on that. And so they said, we'll give you economic reform. Do not ever ask for political reform again, because this is what happens when you do. We're in charge, we're keeping things the way they are, but we'll make it so you can have more money

or whatever. And now China is basically like um, much wealthier. There's a huge middle class than there was before. But there's also a tremendous amount of inequality that wasn't there before. But you can also say, on the other hand, everybody was equally poor. Um, now there's a lot less people who aren't poor, and even a lot of the poorer people are way better off than they were, but they still live under one of the most repressive regimes in

the world. UM. And that was the that was the tradeoff,

that was the bargain that was made. Yeah, and you know what, there's one thing that I think I really learned from this, and it was that you have to nip corruption in the bud before it takes true route, Because if you let your government and your leaders get away with corruption, they're gonna try to get away with a little more, and a little more and a little more, and then before you know it, corruption is so entrenched in your government, it and in your society that the

people who are in charge have so much to answer for. I have so much that they've done that they would not want people to know about that. They can't ever afford to let go of power, and so they will do anything to hold on power, including murder their own people who try to take them out of power. And I mean, this happened in China, but if it if it reaches that point, you could make a pretty good case that this could happen anywhere. That's what I took

from it. You cannot as a society, You cannot as a um, a political group of citizens, a citizenry put up with corruption, no matter how big your house small, in your leaders, in your government, you can't do it. Yeah, it's a man, what a time. But like you said, it's it's a cautionary tale. Forever agreed. Uh, Oh, one

more thing, Chuck. They showed some They showed a picture of tank Man to some kids from Beijing University when that documentary was made in two thousand six, and either either they pretended they didn't know who it was or they legit did not know what they were looking at.

Yeah it looked real to me, man. Yeah, But you could also make the case like that this is such a taboo subject that like you would pretend on camera to some Western journalists with government mind or sitting right next to them, or had no idea what it was. Yeah yeah, um, well that's tenemn square now, you know. Um. And if you want to know more about it, there's a lot to read about it, um all over the internet, thankfully, as long as you live outside of China. It's about

one internet, right Uh. And since Chuck said one Internet, it's time for a listener mate. Uh, this is which one should I read here? So you know what? Let me read this? This was a this one just came in. This was a uh listener male prediction and that puts Jared from sub from subway to shame. Did you read this one? No? I don't know which one that is. Uh, well just sit back then and hold onto your seats. Hey, guys, My family and I live in Oregon have been in

lockdown for the past ten weeks. My husband is a firefighter paramedics, so we are really staying home so we can minimize the risk of spreading the virus because he has so much exposure due to his job. I am a substitute teacher and I am not work right now, but I'm homeschooling our kids age two, six, and eight. We're very lucky. My husband's job is essential, though, because so we're not in the position that so many Americans

are in with losing both of our jobs. And when I'm not homeschooling, I get to listen to as much stuff you should know as possible. So onto the reason I'm writing this. I was listening to the Globe of Death episode from December two thousand seventeen, and I went back and listen to this. In fact, maybe we should play this one again. Uh, listener mail, Well, let me just read this. We'll see if we need to. We'll play the entire episode in this listener mail. No, just

the listener mail, gotcha? Okay, the listener mail. And this episode was really eerie. It's a woman who predicts the next global outbreak will be a flu pandemic, and it calls on the government for cutting c DC funding to prepare for an event like this. It's very strange to be listening to this listener mail on this situation after being in quarantine. I know you guys love it when you're show predicts events, so I thought I would throw

this out there. Thanks that you do all that you do to keep me sane, and that I'm able to hear other grown ups talking about interesting talk topics. My kids are always asking what I'm laughing at and then asked to hear what Josh and Chuck are saying. Thank you, guys. That is from Tiffany Hallock and uh, shall we play a portion of that? Yeah? We should. All right, Well, here's the listener mail from two thousand seventeen, and see if this is uh sounds a little eerie to you.

I'm gonna call this flu epidemic. Hey, guys, I'm a Master's of Public Health candidate in Atlanta at Emory, and we spend a good amount of time discussing the flu. I remember you mentioning the Spanish flu and wondered if such an epidemic could happen again. Bad news is, it can and it probably will. According to public health scholars, that is the culprit is our meat industry, which keeps an overbundance of foul and pigs and tight unsanitary quarters.

Because of the way this industry is growing, and some might argue due to its lack of regulation. Uh, these unsafe conditions lend to the rapid mutation of the virus. This, coupled with the ever decreasing c DC budget, makes it harder and harder for vaccine scientists to create accurate vaccines. On top of all that, the flues scene is a low threat by most of our society, rendering us ill equipped and underprepared. Most people are scared of ebola or

other difficult catch viruses. However, influenza is a rapidly mutating and highly aggressive virus that is easily transmittable and is right here on our doorstep. Scientists predict the flue might be the next most deadly epidemic if we're not careful. My recommendation to our congress people stop cutting the CDC budget. Prevention is key. I know will probably sounds like a quack not to me for real, but just wanted to spread a little knowledge and say hey to my favorite podcasters,

thanks for putting on such amazing show. And that is from Jasmine. Wow, that was pretty eerie. Turned out to be Dr Debra Burkes herself. Uh well, thanks dude, that was a that was a good listener mail. And that was from Tiffany, you said, yeah, that was from Tiffany.

Thanks for that one, Tiffany. Thanks good catch, um, and thanks for letting us know that you guys are doing okay, Uh, hanging there with the home school in and hanging there everybody who whose job was not essential, who's on furlough or um beating up the unemployement an office website. Uh, hang in there, everybody, because things are going to get better. Uh and we will be here the whole time too. Okay,

that's right. Okay. If you want to get in touch with this in the meantime to say hi or whatever, well you can do a via email. How about that. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.