SYSK Selects: Is Stockholm Syndrome real?

still sick. I'm sorry about that. Like this is this is actually me with my nose blowed. I think at this point we could recommend to listeners who typically listen with earbuds or headphones, maybe get this woner, try just in your car speakers. That's probably a good idea. Yeah, Jerry was like, dude, have you heard this you headphones? Did you listen to it? No? Not yet, But we

don't wear headphones here, which is odd for audio recording. Yeah, a lot of people like hearing headphones right in there here. I don't like that. I don't either. We're told we're the only ones here, who don't do that? Hey, we're tazed. Maybe that's a secret. Yeah, um, chuckers, Yes, have you ever been kidnapped? Uh? Not in a in the strictest of senses. I have been kidnapped in the fun church

youth group. Way, oh for like diabetes or something like when someone comes back and kidnaps you for a cause, you know, yeah, which is an odd thing to do. I always felt kind of left out because no one ever kidnapped me for any cause. Oh yeah, yeah, Well maybe I'll do that one day, just get the crap out of you. Break in your house with ski mask on duct tape. Um, I probably recognize you by your clothes. You can wear a ski mask and be like, what

do I know that kidnapper? I know that beef stew smell. Anyway, Um, it's a good thing that you were kidnapped just for a cause, because there's a very low likelihood that you would have suffered from what's known as Stockholm syndrome from being held uh basically ransom until you raised X number of dollars for Juvenile Diabetes Foundation. Um. There are a lot of cases, a surprising amount of cases, even in the statistics that are used to poo poo the concept

of Stockholm syndrome or its prevalence. It's still a surprising amount of cases of people who are abducted. Um, people who are held in like slave as slaves or hostages. Yeah, it's not like a ransom deal. It's just I'm gonna take you now and put you in my seller for fifteen years. That's that. Depending it depends on how you look at it. But yeah, and it depends on the factors involved. But there there is a weird phenomenon that we do not yet have fully pinned down yet. Even

that toy dinosaur can tell you what it is. And it's called Stockholm syndrome. That's right. Uh, And it's got a pretty it's it's it's a crazy thing because it's a psychological disorder that almost no one ever will endure. Um, the press loves it, so they talk about it all the time, and it has an awesome backstory, so basically has everything there for everyone to just overestimate the prevalence of it. Yeah, I think the press loves it because it's a has the like the name, and like you said,

the cool backstory. But I don't agree. But to the press, I think they think it's just like, how can anyone ever feel for their captor? It's so remarkable that this happens. But when I read this article, I'm kind of like I get it a little bit in some cases, and and like, especially in this day and age, after so many incidents of it being reported and covered in like US and people and time and whatever, um, it's it almost comes off as disingenuous. Where the press is the

tabloid press particular, is like, how could how could this person? Yeah, you know, identificitely sensational and not like empathetic, it seems like. But that's the point though. I mean, I guess we should probably define what Stockholm syndrome is for that one person who doesn't know. Yeah, it's well, when you're held captive for some period of time and you end up um, and it's actually not always being held captive because they said in battered spouse cases or slave master relationship, um,

you end up feeling empathy and identifying somewhat with your captor. Yeah, it's destructive culture. Another one. Uh, And I would advise everybody to go listen to the Brainwashing episode and if you've already heard it a lot of this stuff is gonna sound kind of familiar because the two share a lot of common traits. UM, there are some some specific traits to Stockholm syndrome, some factors that that psychology generally agrees have to be present for somebody to develop Stockholm syndrome. UM.

But let's talk about where this came from. You wanted to sure the first the seventy three. I wonder what they called it before this. UM. I saw two other names for it, but I don't know if they predated Stockholm syndrome. Terror bonding and trauma bonding. Terror binding tuating new kind of phrase. It seems like a traumatic bonding was the other one. That's the no frills, like, we're

not sensationalizing here. This is the real deal. Well, it came from a bank robbery in nineteen seventy three in Stockholm, Sweden. And this article actually has it wrong. It's his two men entered the bank. There's actually just one dude, Wilson entered the bank. Uh, cops showed up for this bank robbery. Shootout happens in there, some cops. He takes some hostages, and then he demands that his buddy Olafson, who I think just got out of jail. No, he was in jail.

I thought he was in jail, and they freed him and sent him to this bank, and I guess was like, thanks buddy, here's a gun. Yeah, a hostage standoff. And he was kind of a career criminal, so I doubt if he was like, well, great, now I'm out of I was two months from being let out. Right now

here I am holding people hostage. Um, he sort of looked the second guy I thought looked a little bit like koresh Oh really yeah, a little bit, which one Olsen or ericson because okay, oh yeah yeah Olsen, Yeah, Olsen looks kind of like Charlie Manson a little bit. Then again nineteen seventy three, everybody looked like Charlie. So what happens in this case is, um, it's a it's a standoff. There's a hostage situation. And reportedly the hostages ended up showing uh love for the captors and we're

sort of against the cops. And one reason I saw a side it was because they felt like the cops were put them in more dranger like with their violent tactics that they thought were coming down upon them. Yeah, so that's what happened. They said, Stockholm syndrome. I wrode this rite up by the guy. Um, a psychologist named Nils Bergerat. He was actually the one of the hostage negotiators, the a liaison for the police to these hostage takers. That credit Bonkin. Is that how you say it? But

the bank? Yeah, credit Bonkin? Yeah. Um, So he was there and they actually he's usually credited with coining the term Stockholm syndrome. Um. But he was saying, like, after talking with these guys that they weren't insane, they weren't on drugs. They were like, like you said, career criminals, and every move they made was to like benefit themselves or their situation. It was beneath them to hurt these people,

to hurt their hostages. But they loved shooting at cops because they hated cops, and they were not above threatening these hostages lives to the point where the hostages were taking it seriously. But yes, um, it seemed like the police were putting them in danger with these raids. Yeah. What surprised me was how quickly like the only reason Stockholm syndrome makes sense to me is that when it takes place over like years, Like this was a little

weird to me. Okay, here's the thing. There's a great debate over whether and by great debate, the people disagree over whether Stockholm syndrome develops over a short intense period or a long protracted period. So like in the case of say Um Natasha Kemp, push, yeah, let's tell her story. I guess real quick. Okay. She was an Austrian girl who disappeared in the way to school and she was kept in a fifty four square foot seller with sound proof with no windows by Wolfgang uh prick Lapel and

told her the doors and windows were booby trapped. You can't escape, um, and they like, how many years was this? She was held for for eight years? Eight years? Sorry, and they were you know, they ended up. You know, she went on a ski vacation with them. Um. Eventually was like let out of the basement during the day, had to go back at night always, and like would

go to restaurants occasionally. Uh. And she eventually escaped when um she was vacuum ng and uh he took a phone call when in the other room and she left the vacuum running and bolted, which was pretty smart. And when he found out. She eventually made it to a neighbor's house and I went inside, and this old lady called the cops and she's like, I'm this girl that's been missing all these years. And eventually, Um, he jumped in front of a train when he found out she

got out, killed himself. And apparently she cried and like lit candles at the morgue where he was kept, and also denied that she suffered from Stockholm syndrome. Okay, so I can't give you another one. J. C. Lee Duggard. Um remember that much more recent, much more familiar, I'm sure to those of us in the US, especially those of us who pay attention to us weekly. Um. But she was held for eighteen years. She her captor, She

assisted her captor with his home business. Captors captors um with their home business, emailed customers, took phone calls from customers, greeted customers at the door by herself. Um. Basically it was a lot like Natasha's story, where like she was like living out in plain sight with these people and like had all these opportunities to like make a make a run for it, and like never did. Um. And he was a kidnapper. He was already serve time for kidnapping. Yeah,

I believe so. Um when she was finally freed, she um her I guess her stepfather was explaining it to the press that she really had strong feelings for this guy, and like she thought of this as like a marriage basically, I mean, she was held captive for eighteen years, right. So on the one side, those are two really good examples of Stockholm syndrome to like coming to see your captor as your husband, or to cry and like, you know, light candles at morgue for your captor after he kills himself.

But then on the other side, there's like the remember the t w A hijackers. Um, somebody who was freed after that relatively short stand off um said that these were, um, they weren't bad people. Quote, the terrorists weren't bad people. They let me eat, they let me sleep, they gave me my life. And that was a really short, brief, intense encounter. And those are like kind of the different

sides of the whole thing. So like, which one if you become a member of your captor's family, is that Stockholm syndrome or is a slightly differ for netable, if you come to see your captors your savior simply because they're letting you live over like the course of like twenty four hours while they're holding you. Or is that Stockholm syndrome? Which ones which because we have slightly different

things going on and they're both really abnormal psychologically speaking. Agreed, and I think it was the girl in Austria said that, like, on the plus side, I didn't drink or do drugs or smoke, and I didn't hang out with like bad kids. Sounds a seller, so I mean, obviously we're not laughing at her, but it was definitely a unique take on being held captive. And one of the things too, like, uh,

I guess we'll eventually get to um Patty Hirst. But in the case of these girls, they were like, you know, the one was ten years old when she was originally kidnapped, So I mean, when you're ten, I think you would be much more acceptible to something like this over the course of like your entire adolescence growing up, is your teenage years like this your you know, it makes sense to me a little bit that you accept it and see these people as your protectors anyway, But that's the

common thread. Whether it's a short, brief, intense period or eighteen years of captivity, the common thread is that Stockholm syndrome developing. It is seen as a survival strategy. So let's let's talk about the factors involved. Shall we we shall what traits must be? The three traits are a severely uneven power relationship, which makes sense. The captor is

completely in charge of every facet of your life. When you eat, when you sleep, how you sleep, where you sleep, what you eat, what you drink, if you can shower or not, like everything, if you can talk, what whether or not you're like chained to a bed um threat or threat of death or physical injury um, and a lot of times that includes like you know, rape and assault and severe beatings. There's another one like I'll talk about that in the second, but there's there's a disagreement

about whether that's can be president or not really. And then finally, self preservation instinct, which is what we were talking about. They believe, like the only way my butts gonna get out of here is if I obey, Yeah, obey, And it's called a healthy ego as this is a self preservation instinct. Like your ego starts to take over and says, okay, um, we need to figure out how to stay alive here. Its solution on the skin right exactly?

Or else what? Or else it's the hose again. Uh. And so that ego takes over because all other normal tactics available to any free human being to stay alive, grabbing a gun, calling the police, shouting, um, whatever are stripped from that person. Well. Sure, And in the case of the Austrian girl, she was told things were booby trapped, like windows and doors, and that he said he had a gun on him at all times. And when your tin and you grow up like this, like how are

you going to figure this out? You know you're not watching TV, you're obviously not on the internet, Like for all she knew things were booby trapped and she's trying to live. Um. There's two other factors that usually have to be present too, is the prisoner has to believe that escape is impossible, like you were saying booby traps or whatever, um that there there's just no escape, there's no there's no um other thing to focus the mind on, like how how can I dig my way out of here?

It's totally focused on the captor being the means of escape or survival um. And then the the prisoner also has to be isolated. So this one kind of like undermines the idea of somebody who's held captive in plain sight for eighteen years developing classic Stockholm syndrome because if you if you were totally isolated from the outside world,

other opinions of the captor are sequestered from you. Yeah, so that Lieutenant Denzel Washington out there an inside man, and what he thinks of Clive Owens is not coming through. All you have is your your increasingly deranged mind um to tell you what you think about Clive Owens. You know. I'm gonna add my own here too. I think that part of it has to do with just humans desire

to connect with another human. And if all you've got is this one person and it's over the course of eight to eighteen years, that's gonna take over at some point and you're gonna want to connect with this person, you know. I think you may have just hit upon the distinction between the two, the short intense period and the long duration. Yeah, because think about it like you do.

If you are just kept apart from everybody else, you do still have that need to connect with pure That's brilliant, Chuck, that may be the most brilliant thing you said yet my dinosaurs clapping. Yeah, it's better than the caveman Milton in Neanderthals a good theory. Um, okay, so we we know all of this stuff that has to be present. Right. Basically, you're a hostage that is totally subject to the whims of your captor. You think you're going to die, Um,

you don't think there's any escape. You're sequestered away from other people. Um, and your captor likes to remind you that he or she is in charge. Yes, okay, let's talk about the stages. Well, that is the first stage and I just went over it. Um. Also threatening the family, like hey, you love your little brother and your mom and your dad, while I can kill them very easily, like if you try to escape, and if you're talking to a little ten year old girl, that's gonna you know,

do some serious damage. It has more effect than saying like a forty year old single guy, yeah I think so, yeah, or a married guy well no, I don't know. You can still threaten a married guy's family, a family man's family. It's just yeah. But I think they would react like, you know, like Harrison Fordwood on Air Force One. Yeah, not cowering. They would be like, oh, yeah, what was the famous line you shouldn't test me? You know, was get off my plane. Yeah, that's what it was, you

shouldn't test me. That's pretty good though. I think that was in the initial script. Um. Well, of course my line got revised. Very funny. Um. So time goes on U and then what happens is the captor gets stressed out because I'm sure it's pretty stressful to keep someone captive like that. So the captive, the kidnapp e, sees these wild mood swings maybe and maybe feels threatened by this, and in order to survive again, they feel like they

have to learn the emotional patterns of this person. And so what happens is they end up connecting and by learning about this person, by studying their behavior, they get to know him and like that sits right, yeah, And that's like when they figure out that just obeying everything the person says is not enough, because the fuzz outside shooting tear gas into the bank vault is really starting to take the hostage, take her off, and you can obey all day long, but the police are screwing. Thing

is up. And I'll bet that's also about the time when that um, that third step where you come to see um the outside world, the people who are trying to rescue you as harmful as a threat. Yeah. Um, So you get to know your captor you're obeying um. And then it comes this part where if you listen to the Brainwash episode, this will make a lot of sense. Um your captor displays some minor bit of kindness towards you. Yeah, this is the key, I think, and this is why

they think possibly abuse can't be present. Oh yeah, yeah, because because it breaks down this very essential ingredient of kindness, or it can't well or if the abuse stops, they said, sometimes just the lack of violence from a certain point the scene, as like, will you do me a kindness? Okay, quit beating and raping me. So I would I would agree with you on that one. But for the most part, say,

it could be offering food. It could be something as simple as stopping abusing some buddy, or just saying I'm not going to kill you yet, or I'm not just not killing the person yet, and the the captor, Um, no, the hostage comes to see the captor as some sort of savior because the captor not only can kill you because he's got your life in his hands, he's not killing you, which means he's protecting you. And now your

brain just broke a little bit. Well. And and if they're the one bringing you your food and water and books and magazines, like, they're essentially the one caring for you because they're keeping you alive. And in the case of J. C. Lee Duggard, um, I think like on the very first day after she was like handcuffed and raped, the guy was started to tell her like amusing stories

and things. I mean, this dude was seriously twisted, but um, and like would get her fast food and things like that, so like kind of right out of the gate, he would like do these little random acts of kindness, which I'm sure just confused the hell Ouever, Oh yeah, bet, because she was pretty young when she was I think she was ten. There's nothing can you imagine you could do to these people that would be as bad as

what they did to those No, you know it's absolutely true. Um, there's another woman whose name I don't recall, who was kept in a box under a bed Helena. No, No, it was like for real for years, Like she wasn't like allowed out or anything like that, Like she was kept in a box. Yeah. And it's like, you raise a pretty good point. What what can you possibly do to somebody who did that to someone else? I mean that,

do you think just desserts like eye for an eye? Yeah, while you put him in prison and they eventually get out or down't. I guess that's similar. But the prison is although it has some of those hallmarks because the guards are in charge and can beat you up, and there a lot of stuff. You're still connected in some ways to the outside world, and there's still a lot of dependence that the prisoner would have that somebody like being held hostage like this stuff like it would probably

be solitary confinement for the duration. Yeah, uh, the old Quaker sentence, right. Remember they're the ones who came up with solitary so you could think about what you did. So, um, the captain now has emerged as your savior and as a friend kind of. And I think it's in the sense of, you know, when you go through something like really hardcore and intense and threatening with somebody, but it's

not because of them. Like you can feel either tight with that person or you can feel like Homer and Mr Burr is getting trapped in that house during the avalanche.

I never want to talk about it again. Yeah, you never want to see that weirdo again, right, um, But this would be type A. But the it's you're identifying with your captor, Like you guys are going through this crazy, intense thing together, and you're throwing out the window the fact that the captor has started all this and has dragged you into it, put your life in jeopardy, and now you're friends with this person, and you think that if you guys work together, you can get out of

this mess and maybe like go, you know, live in Jamaica and hang out well. And I'm sure that the captors at some point over the course of these years say things to reinforce that, like you know, what are we doing here? Like what's going on? I've kept you in this thing, and how look at this mess we are in You think, oh, that's I'm just surmising, but yeah, I think, but I think, well, like saying a bank robbery or something. It's like you're you if you have

classic Stockholm syndrome. You're saying, you know, let me talk to the cops. I'll get us out of here, Like I'll tell them that like they got it all wrong or something like that. That that level of identifying with your captors. Now you're just raised yourself to the same level as the bank robber as well, which I guess probably gives you a little bit of humanity. So the

prevalence of this stuff is definitely debatable. Um, there's an actual database, Chuck called the um Hostage Barricade Database System, and it's an FBI database, and it's cases of people basically taking hostages and surveying this they found about hostages showed no signs whatsoever Stockholm syndro. These kidnappings or hostages are both. I would say hostage taking, I believe. UM, so that means people do show some affinity, you would

think so. But at the same time you can us to say, well, like it's some high percentage of hostage taking their domestic disputes, where like you know the person, so they already have an affinity for them. If they shoot themselves, then you immediately feel bad for that person too, So we almost need a set of data just about like strangers taking strangers hostage exactly. That would give us a probably a better view of Stockholm syndrome. That's um And I think I had a larger point, but I

don't remember what it was. Oh, I've got it, you're ready. So despite the the a lot of law enforcement people poo pooing the idea of Stockholm syndrome or it's prevalence, they do think that there's something to it, and they actually hostage negotiators encourage the formation of Stockholm syndrome because

it keeps the guys alive. Yes, because when you hit a certain point where you've got a classical Stockholm syndrome case going on, but with the hostages identifying with their captor as a friend, they may turn on the police and it may make prosecution even down the road harder because the people may refuse to testify. But in the short term it can help keep the hostages alive because the captor in turn will start to see the hostages as human beings, because these are people who are coming

at them like friends. So what's going on and like, what's your first name? And your kids and now the idea of executing these people is much more removed. Interesting. So yeah, hostage neghostiators will try to like get the whole Stockholm thing going. So now this can live in a suite with brainwashing, cults, hostage negotiation and that's probably it, right, amazing. It is now a four podcast suite. It is where it was previously three. It is. But we're not done yet, No,

we're not. So I guess we should wrap up with Patty Hurst, very famous case of Stockholm syndrome, granddaughter of William Randolph. First the newspaper Magnet, was famously kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army in the seventies, and uh was reportedly abused and and brainwashed to a certain degree and ended up sort of joining them in a famous robbery. Yeah, she was. She turned into a bank robber, like with the bray and the machine gun and the whole deal.

Everyone's seen the photo. But then after she was freed, she publicly came out against the Symbianese Liberation Army um and opposed it, which is unusual for somebody with Stockholm syndrome. Yeah, and a lot of people thought maybe she was faking it. Maybe she was making it up, but I think the consensus now is that she was. Um, it was just a survival tactic. Yeah, But for I remember many years though, when I was a little kid hearing about this, like, oh,

some people thought she'd like you said she was. Now she's tricking all us. She really did get into it, and she's trying to save her bay can. Because look at that photo with the machine gun beret. It's pretty convincing but definitely interesting. And then it's a Warhol, isn't it. Didn't he paint that? Really? I think? So he painted up that photo and then he went on to uh or she went on to starring John Waters movies. Oddly enough, have you seen the thing on the video of vaner

Herzog like figuring out that John Waters is gay? No, it's pretty great. Really, he's talking to people and you know, the accent is just what makes it so priceless about how you know people are just people to me, I don't even think about gayle straight to something and he's like I was. I've known John Waters for like twenty something. He is and I love him. And I said to my wife recently, I said, I think he might be gay,

and everyone in the room just cracks up. And he was just illustrating a point like I just don't even see people like that. Never donned on me that John Waters was gay. It's pretty funny, all right, That's all I got. That's good. If you all learn more about Stockholm syndrome. You can type that word into or those two words into the search bar at how stiff works dot com able to bring up this point article. And I said search bar, So that means it's time for melicitor. Male, Josh,

I'm gonna call this. I'm a musketeer. Did you read this one? No? I missed that. If there's a good one, Uh, this guy, all right, I'll just read it. Um, Lauren McNett, my father and I are abbot outdoorsman and carry a flintlock muzzleloader whenever we can cool. We're also configured, Uh, we've configured our flintlocks to be twenty gage shotdowns as well. We would be so nervous pulling the trigger. They know what we're they're doing, though. Um, we got through the

same process as the minute man. We load the powder charge, load the patch load, the ball charge, the pan cock, the hammer got to charge the paint and pull the ceterric and finally pull the main trigger, at which point the flint and the hammer strikes the frisen, showering the pan. Was sparks that ignites the black powder in the pan, which is adjacent to the touch hole. This guy's just

show it all. That in turn ignites the powder charge, sending the one and eighty grain lead ball out of the barrel at about eighteen hundred fifty ft per second, which is faster than the speed of sound. Uh. There is a difference in that true muskets do not have rifled barrels where ours do because it increases accuracy. We've been hunting for many years and we aren't anywhere near the speed of the minute men, which was three shots

per minute. Um. We also don't have targets that fire back, obviously, but they hunt like bits. They hunt deer, turkey, bear and ducks with flintlocks, and it's really challenging and it takes careful consideration, special tools and lots and lots of patients. One yard shots are possible, but we generally try to get within forty yards with the rifles. In twenty arts with the shotguns, and he said, can confirm the inclement weather does take a toll on the ability to fire,

even on human days. It can dampen the powder so where it will not ignite. And then he just goes on to point out that they are uh responsible hunters. They typically only get one shot, so they do their best to ensure that it is the swiftest, cleanest harvest possible, and then they process the animals themselves and waste as little as possible as a way of honoring an animal and being respectful of natures. So that's Lauren McNett, ps keep powder dry. Un let's have t shirts and say

that thanks lord. Yeah, pretty cool. That is pretty cool. Um, we did it for the killing animals part, but I get I get it, your hunter. But we did a remember the is knife hunting the Fairest Way to hunt? Episode? Oh man, that's an old one, it is, but it was a good one. Remember we ended up like talking about how if a boar comes at you and you have a knife and that's it, you're on pretty much equal footing. Yeah that's pretty fair. But then or the

end we started to go off on internet hunting or that. Yeah, that was a great episode. Dig that up Everybody's knife hunting the fairest way to hunt. That's the only article I ever refused to write was the Internet Hunting. Yeah. I was a signed that. I was like, I'm not gonna write about this. Yeah, good for you. And it went away because of that. It did like the next day Internet Hunting. Yeah no, um no, but it has gone away about that time. They chuck that contributed to

its device. Um let's see. If you wanted to tell us about something, it can be anything, anything at all. Oh, if you've ever had Stockholm SI, how about that? Yeah, then I would you feel very bad for you. But I would like to hear story for sure. For more on this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com