Selects: History's Greatest Traitors

Hello, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's Select, I've chosen our twenty thirteen episode on History's Greatest Traders. Turns out history is rife with treacherous people, and if there's any lesson to learn from this episode, it's be careful who you cross, because once your name is associated with treachery, it turns out that that stays pretty sticky. It's tough to get rid of.

Enjoy Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast on Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Bryant. So, Chuck, Yeah, I have a story for you.

All right, let's hear it. Come back with me, wayback machine.

Sure, okay, A couple hours ago.

Yeah, so here we are. It's December twenty second, nineteen seventy two. Oh yeah, something really bad is about to happen. It sit down in front of this TV.

Okay.

Our good friend and hero, Peter Brady is trying out for the school play. Yeah, it's a story of the American Revolution. I remember that he tries out for George Washington, but he doesn't get it. And in fact, the name of this episode that we're sitting here watching on this nice brown and orange shag carpeting is called Everybody Can't Be George Washington. Peter doesn't get the part of George Washington, but he does get another very important part, the part

I was a tree in my last six plays, right, This is.

A huge step up for him, until his classmates point out that Benedict Donald was a trader, and since Peter's playing a trader, he must be some sort of trader too. So basically the whole school turns on him because he's playing Benedict.

Donald, which is really kind of silly.

It is very silly. And of course Peter tries to get out of the play again and again, yeah, affecting laryngitis, pretending he has a limp all of this stuff, saying he forgets his lines.

Yeah, I think I remember that.

And finally successful, and then his dad points out that he has turned into a trader. Now Peter against the whole cast.

Don't tell me. He had a lesson for him, and he sat him down and had a talking to.

It was a good one. Yeah, it was a good one. And so Peter goes in and plays Benedict Donald and knocks it out of.

The park and learned a lesson in the process.

But the whole premise of this episode of Brady Bunch is that Peter was suffering from a smear campaign started two hundred years before by George Washington, and it was so successful that even today, you can get a rise out of some by calling them Benedict Donald if they've done something traitorous.

Yeah, and we've learned there are quite a few synonyms with trader that were in fact notorious traders, Like if you call someone a Judas or a Benedict Donald or what quisling? Yeah, that might be popular in some parts of the world.

Right, this is the USA. Sure, so we call people Benedict Donald's.

That's right.

Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about Benedict Donald to start.

Okay, Well, you know, first of all, we should point out that this is a curated show from our buddy Sam t Garden.

This is the Summer of Sam.

Then, yeah, we're continuing into our second Summer of Sam. And for those of you that don't know. Sam is a local fan of ours and a good kid, and he's actually on our TV show.

He was in an episode, the Make It Rain episode.

Yeah, is one of our softball teammates. And Sam's a good guy and he sends in great ideas, so we like to highlight them when we do them.

Yeah, all right, so summer Sam, Hey, Sam, hope you're doing well. Buddy. Were talking about bened mac donald and why there was such a smear campaign against him, and it turns out rightfully so, although possibly I think a lot of Arnold's side of the story has been lost to history.

Well. Yeah, and coincidentally or not coincidentally, some of these traders that we're going to mention today, history is born out that they may not have been traders. Yeah, but been an Donald definitely was.

So he was a document and trader. Yeah, as traitorous and treasonous as you can get, as far as in the context of war.

Yeah. So early on in life things started out pretty well. He was born into some wealth, but his family, specifically his father, squandered their fortune with some bad business dealings. Apparently he was quite a drinker.

Oh, you turned into the town drunk.

Yeah, well that'll do it.

They lost their family estate.

Yeah, they lost their dough. Three of his sisters are sorry, siblings died from yellow fever. He had to drop out of school.

He became an apothecary.

Yeah, so things weren't like Rosie for the guy, although he did quite well later on in the military.

Well, he did quite well even before that as a merchant. And actually, by the age of twenty two, was able to buy back his family's estate. Oh really, which he then turned around and sold it a profit.

Well, good for him.

So I guess he wasn't the sentimental type flipped this estate. Yeah. I think it wasn't that he wanted his family's to state back. He just didn't want to lose out on the potential profit from it, I guess.

Yeah. And he seemed like he may have been like add before there was add.

Yeah.

Yeah, from the sounds of reading his thing, I was just like, man, this kid had add. He was always in trouble. He's getting kicked out of school. Yeah, but it was just because he was like busy.

Yeah.

He wasn't like a bad kid, it seemed like, but he was just always had something going on.

He finally, I guess found his niche and he did become quite a businessman and fabulously wealthy, but he wasn't wealthy enough in his opinion, and in fact joined the Sons of Liberty, the revolutionary group in New England, because he was mad that his riches were being taxed by England.

Yeah, he liked the dough, he did, and he did have a pretty remarkable military career in Jefferson and Washington were big supporters of him for a while.

Yeah, but he also suffered. Apparently there are a lot of petty jealousies that they don't talk about among the founding fathers and the second and third echelons of all these guys, and apparently Benedict Donald frequently suffered.

Yes, he was slighted a lot, a lot.

Yeah, he missed out on honors and stuff like that. And he doesn't seem like the type to let things go, nor was he the type to air his his feelings, so he just kind of sat there and stewed, right.

Yeah, I saw most of the times he was slighted. He fought really hard to get either reassigned or reappointed to the position he was going for. And so you're right, he couldn't let it go. He needed therapy. But instead he was appointed to run West Point, not the military academy, the four right, Yeah, this is pre I guess they probably named it after that though, didn't they.

I think it turned into the military Academy. Okay, but I think this was before it was an academy.

Yeah, it was definitely. Yeah, and so he, you know, went Benedict Arnald on everyone, and little did he know he was being a Benedict Arnald. But he sold secrets to the British, like plans, war secrets, armament locations for about three million bucks. I think it was ten thousand pounds at the time.

Yeah, so he he The reason he did this, ostensibly was a because he'd been slighted.

Yeah.

But also, and this is what it's been lost to history, is that he he came to believe that the revolution had lost steam, that the people running the show didn't really know what they were doing and probably wouldn't form a very good post revolutionary government if successful.

So did he genuinely think the Brits were going to do a better job.

Supposedly that's what historians say, but again he didn't really. He may have been the type to just kind of say that's what he was right thinking too, and then somebody wrote down at some point, but he ultimately said this, the colonies are better back in the hands of England again.

Gotcha.

So not only am I going to try to sell the map to West Point, I'm going to join the British Army, which he did, Yeah, and led at least two raids against American revolutionary forces. So he really switched sides.

Oh yeah, yeah in seventeen eighty. I can't believe whoever wrote this article put that. When the plot was intercepted, he went from he wrote a zero.

I know, I know.

I was all of a sudden, I was in like in the US magazine Ers or.

Like a Springer show.

Yeah, that's weird, but that's what happened. He was convicted of treason and his name was erased from the record books, and England promised him. They're like, hey, if you defect over here, we're going to give you land in Canada. Yeah, we're not going to give you land here. We'll give you land in Canada some money, and we'll promise your family pensions and you're going to be a British provincial

They're like, yeah, yeah, that comes up again and again, like yeah, even the side that you're trying to or whatever. They yeah, they're like, you're a trader.

Well, I think it's because basically you're just a big liar.

Yeah, and you're treacherous.

Yeah, and so people are like, how can I go to trust you? Thanks for doing that, but can you go live in Canada?

But it does pop up again and again. Anybody who's ever turned trader and expected some sort of glory has been sorely disappointed.

Yeah. So in England he was sort of poo pooed. Then he moved to Canada they didn't like him. Yeah, and then he moved back to England and died there without ever like making a whole lot of money or getting any important military action. Right, So sort of a sad ending.

It really is. And today if you go to West Point, there's I guess twelve plaques of some of like the head revolutionary generals, and his name is literally wiped from the record. It has the year of his birth and I think the town of his birth. Well, his name is not on the plaque any longer, just says is this smeared or there's a sharpie through it?

Right? All right, So that's been an arnold.

Let's go a little further back. Okay, let's go way back. I'm talking like maybe forty four BC.

Cassius and Brutus. Yeah, Marcus Junius Brutus the younger.

I'm glad. Do you look that up?

Yeah, I'm sure he had a fuller name.

Yeah, Brutus. It's like it's like a whole country of share or something.

And here's the thing with these guys. They were definitely traders as well, but they're also singled out clearly. They killed Caesar we all know in the IDEs of March, which is Caesar the Senator and dfl dictator for life, which self declared. But they are like sixty dudes that took part in this.

Yeah, and Caesar was self declared Caesar for a civil war one informed a triumvirate with the people that he vanquished. Yeah, so he wasn't entirely dictatorial, although as like popular opinion started to swell around him, He's like, maybe I will just be leader for life. Let's save all those voting days and I'll just be leader for the rest of the time. I'm alive. And Cassius and Brutus had both

And brand new knives.

And they said, and they said, still not enough. Well, Cassius especially apparently he was very envious of Caesar and his power. He was the rebel rouser, and that that was ultimately his motive, although he used the concept of the Republic of Rome turning into a dictatorship to lead the assassination against Caesar.

Yeah, and even cooked up evidence and like letters of support to show Brutus, because Brutus was much friendlier with Caesar. There were buds, but he was swayed by Cassius and said, you know what, this is going to be good for our country or our kingdom or whatever they were calling at the time, and took part. But they weren't like that. The lead I mean, maybe they cooked it up, but they weren't the initial aggressors.

I thought Brutus was the first one to stab Caesar.

No, this dude, Tillius Simber came out and like pulled down his tunic first of all, did he really? Yeah, I guess he said pulled it down, But I don't know what that means. If he I imagined he was pulling it hockey either pants him or no. Tunic's like a shirt thing, so I thought he pulled it over his head like a hockey player might in a fight.

It's like reverse pants.

It reverse pants him, And Caesar was like, you know, what is this violence going on? And then another dude, Kaska, he came at him with a knife, and Caesar blocked him away and defended himself and was like, basically, what's going on here? And then that's when everyone, like sixty guys descended upon him. Wow, among you know, Brutus might have been the lead of that pack.

Though, yeah, okay, okay, Well.

He stabbed the crap out of him, So I knew.

I thought Brutus was the first one to stab him. I knew that some other guy was the first one to strike him, and it may have been the guy who reverse pants to him till he yeah, you, me and I were at Pompei who actually walked around Pompeii And there's a table there and it belonged to that guy. Oh really, And I guess somebody in Pompeii like bought the table of the first guy to strike Caesar and like had it in their via and it's still there today.

And did you eat at it?

No, we stared at it. Oh okay, we looked at it from like three meters away.

Oh gotcha.

You have to say meters because in Italy that's obnoxious.

And apparently only one of the stabs. He was stabbed twenty three times, and like continued to be stabbed even after he was on the floor dead, but only one of them was a fatal blow. He was a like the second stab I think went through his heart, and the rest were just you know, but before they felt injury.

When Brutus stabbed him, yeah, Caesar very famously said a two brute yeah, which literally means and you brutus or what the hell brutus?

Yeah, you too, And supposedly he kind of gave up at that point, like it killed a spirit when he saw Brutus was involved. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah.

Supposedly he didn't want to live in a brutistless world, in a world where even Brutus could assassinate him, so he resigned himself to dying and hence became a hero.

It's very sad. It was on my birthday?

Your birth is it the fifteenth? Fifteenth too? But not of March?

That's right? Uh so? Oh? Also too, apparently that was the first autopsy report. Oh really, first post mortem death report was made on Caesar Greeks man.

If that's true, I've heard the Romans. Whoops. Whatever, I'm really glad I caught that one.

Yeah, to lead to their email. Anything else I want on these two traders?

No? Oh yes, Dante had a special hatred for Brutus and Cassius, and in his Inferno he says that they are being perpetually eaten by two of Lucifer's three mouths.

Wow.

And the third mouth is reserved for the next guy. We'll talk about, a little guy named Judas as Carrie.

Oh really, yeah, Satan's third mouth.

So Lucifer's three mouths are eating Cassius, Brutus and Judas.

Wow. All right. Judas is one of these that recent evidence has emerged where he may not have been such a trader, but we'll get into that. But then that was refuted as well. Everyone obviously knows the Judas kiss very famously. Judas betrayed Jesus. He was one of the disciples. He betrayed Jesus with a kiss. Yeah, and it was actually a signal to the guards to come and grab him. I guess he was identifying him.

Yeah, apparently the Romans didn't know who this Jesus was, Yeah, at least by sight. And Judas went and said, hey, you guys want this Jesus, what do you give me? And the signal was like, well, you kissed the guy that's Jesus, and we'll come get him.

And we'll give you thirty pieces of silver.

Thirty pieces of silver. I mean, the west Egg inflation calculator doesn't go back to you know that date, but I can imagine it's still probably wasn't that much thirty pieces of silver.

I have no idea.

Well, apparently it was used later on to buy a field to turn into a potter's field to bury unclaimed dead Oh really, but I mean it's field, how much. It couldn't have been that.

Much, Like how much was land going for back then in the Middle East?

They had tons of land.

Okay, So Judas betrays Jesus. He was we didn't know much about his life at the time, but recently there has been I think in two thousand one of the Gospel, a new gospel was revealed, the Gospel of Judas.

Yeah, colon my story.

My side of things.

Yeah.

And it was a of course, a papyrus document dating to the second century a d. And it was written about in a book called the Lost Gospel, and it portrays this Judas as more of a facilitator of what Jesus wanted. Basically, Jesus is like, hey, turn me in because this is my destiny. Yeah, Like sacrifice yourself. I sacrifice myself and we all go on to live in heaven and you know, fulfill our destinies.

Yeah, which a lot of people are like, Okay, I kind of like this different view of Judas, you know, and it makes Jesus even more prescient than he appears in the Bible, sure, because you know, he's betrayed by someone he thought was his friend, and this he is

Yeah, so quite two different stories. Yeah, all by changing a few words in this Coptic text, which isn't the easiest stuff to translate. Like it's tough, you know, it's not like and even the person that poo pooed the original translation was like, this is a very hard job.

You know.

I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose, but that's not what I think it says, right, And so, and that was April Deconic, a professor of Biblical studies at Rice University. And I don't know did other people come out and support that. I can really find much.

I don't know.

And apparently actually in the Bible it's hinted at that Jesus could have known about it, but.

Well doesn't he say like one of you will betray me?

At least? Yeah, he definitely said that.

The Last Temptation of Christ. Yeah, who Harvey kai Tell does a pretty good Jesus or Judas.

Yeah, yeah, you know will in Dafoe.

Yeah that was that was a good movie. But yeah, that was how I when I like anything I'd ever heard, I always thought like Jesus knew it was just never as explicit as this Gospel of Judas put it.

Right and then Gospel of Judas. I even claim that Jesus even asked Judas like, hey, will you do this for me? Do me as solid? So kiss me, put one right here, right.

So Judas realizes what he's done, feels horribly guilty, tries to give the silver back. The high priests that he's sold Jesus out to won't take the money, and so he throws it on the temple floor. They end up figuring out that it can be used for a potter's feel, and they use that thirty pieces of over for that, and then Judas goes off and hangs himself.

Yeah, and I don't think we said Jesus was crucified. I thought that went without saying. Yeah, but in case there's like one person out there was like, what.

Happened to Jesus? All right, whatever, it became a Jesus, That's what happened. And then Judas supposedly fell headlong and his body opened up. And there, if you go back and read some scholarly translations, they think that his body opened up means that he was left his body was left hanging for a while out in the heat, and when it finally fell, like a branch broke or whatever, and it fell, it kind of ruptured.

Across where'd you find that out I don't remember.

Somewhere online?

Wow?

Yeah it was. Yeah. They were talking about how he went headlong. He became headlong, and they were saying, like, if you just switch out like a couple of letters, headlong becomes swollen, and then that would explain why his body opened up.

Wow.

Yeah.

And now Judas and Judas kiss are both part of the lexicon. And you know, in terms of betrayals, yeah, you know, treacherous treacher So I know, thanks Sam.

How about Chuck, I know you've seen this movie.

I love this movie.

Uh, the assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Coward Robert Ford.

Yeah, we've talked about it. This is a good movie, very good movie, written and directed by h Andrew Dominic and uh has Paul Schneider and my buddy, Paul Schneider. Schneid's right, he listens, Oh, hey, was he he's in it? Yeah, he's he's one of the gang. And he's a great actor. He's We've since become like email pals. That's so.

Uh. That was an excellent movie. I'm sure Schneider did fantastic in it.

He did great Schneid's Schneid's.

And it seems to me I don't know a lot about the whole saga of Jesse James, especially his demise, but it seemed to be pretty true to everything I've ever heard about it.

Yeah. I think the movie was pretty accurate. Yeah, and it was great, like gorgeous to look at, beautifully filmed. Yeah, and not just because Brad Pitt was in it, but Casey Fleck as Robert Ford was amazing.

He really so. Anyway, if you haven't seen that movie, go out and see it. In the meantime, we'll spoil it for you.

I think he was nominated for an Academy.

Well, I can't imagine how he wasn't. Yeah, he was so creepy.

So what's the deal with Jesse James.

Well, Jesse James was a member of the James Ganga, the leader, a full partner. Well, I think he and his brother Frank were kind of co leaders really, that's the impression I have, Like Frank stallone. Yeah, and they were very successful at robbing trains, robbing people, robbing banks, robbing everything, and they became outlaw folk heroes everybody loved to hate, but he also still loved.

Well, they didn't kill people.

No, not until the second to last robbery by Jesse James. They botched it and a couple of people died. Most of the James gang was caught, and Jesse and Frank went off and assembled a new gang that included Robert Ford.

Yeah, he was pretty new. He had long tried to get in the James Gang and was sort of shunned as a weirdo, a little weird and like not the most skilled robber and gunman, and it wasn't taken very seriously, which always bothered him.

Right, So Jesse James pulls off one last train robbery in eighteen seventy and decides to retire. Frank James retires and Robert Ford kind of tangs along with Jesse James the rest of his life, and the Governor of Missouri put a bounty on Jesse James head of I believe ten thousand dollars, which is pretty substantial for eighteen seventy. Sure, And in eighteen eighty two Robert Ford took the Governor of Missouri up on this. I apparently met with him, Yeah,

Yeah. Well he was supposedly just supposed to capture him.

Oh okay, and.

Did the shooting on his own volition.

And there's a wood cutting in this article of Jesse James dropping a feather duster just like he does in the movie.

Oh yeah. He stands on a chair in his own home to dust a picture and Robert Ford shoots him in the back of the head. Yeah, and kills him just right there, very like low key and anticlimactic.

With his wife home and everything. Yeah, And then they leave, and so Robert Ford kind of like I think Benedict Darnold, expected to be concerd something of a hero. Yeah, and he was considered a coward a zero. Yeah, yeah, he was.

Actually, he and his brother were both indicted, found guilty, sentenced to hang, and pardoned in a single day.

Oh that's a heck of a day.

Yeah, pretty like emotional rollercoaster going on there.

And they became an ostracized socially. Robert Ford just became the butt of many jokes. And then finally one day he was confronted by a man who sought him out because he wanted to kill Robert Ford for to gain his own acclaim.

Yeah, Edward O'Kelly brought a shotgun into it. He was a bar owner I think at the time Robert Ford was. And after by the way, they toured in a touring production. Oh yeah, like recreating the murders.

Yeah, Sam Rockwell.

Yeah. And so Edward O'Kelly goes in the bar with a shotgun, says hello, Bob, He turns around, shoots him in the throat, and he gets a sentence commuted after a petition and his pardoned killing Robert Ford.

Yeah, back then, the prairie job mob rule definitely had like a ground hold.

Yeah.

I don't know what that is, but I think I got my point across.

Yeah, they were like, he was a coward and you shot him, so that makes you a good guy.

Exactly.

So that's Robert Fort. You got anything else? Nope? Should we move on to Mada Hati?

Yeah, I knew next to nothing about Mada Hai.

Yeah. Same here.

She turned out to be a pretty fascinating woman.

Yeah.

Possibly not a trader at all. Yeah, actually, probably not a trader at all. Yeah, let's let's talk about her.

Well, she was a very sexual being. She was very close to her father apparently, who doted on her, and she has been described as sex as being her driving force. And she was said to have an insatiable longing for male attention her entire life and for the time period early nineteen hundreds, she really really slept around.

Yeah, and she didn't just like you the sex with the men. She liked them to buy her stuff.

Oh yeah, well she used it as a means for sure. Yeah.

She blew through a lot of guy's money, right, Yeah, and just loved to live lavishly, racked up tons of debt and became something of a toast among Parisian society, European society.

Actually, yeah, she was Dutch, we should point out.

Yeah, her real name was Margareta Zelli.

Yeah, but she looked like Indian and she tried to remake herself as this Indian exotic Indian dancer.

I read Indonesian. Oh, Indonesian, Yeah, because Mata Hari is Malaysian for eye of the dawn, which means sunrise. Gotcha, So her name was Sunrise, the stripping dancer.

Well, and she she didn't just dance like this was at a time when the mulan ruge was like they were like pulling their skirts up a little bit and and some ankle and some nickers, and she was like taking it to you another.

Level, apparently on stage in people's living.

Rooms, private dances, like traveling dancing, like really erotic and exotic stuff for the time.

So from what I understand, she was also a sometime prostitute when things were really bad and sure and then she but ultimately she just kind of went through a succession of lovers around Europe, and at one point she found herself in I guess in Amsterdam and was approached by a German officer and said, hey, we want you

Spy, yeah, without actually spying yet. And she was, as this one writer puts it, she was traveling alone. She was wealthy, she was an excellent linguist, and very foreign and very educated and admitted to having lovers and like all of this stuff for the time just meant we don't trust you, even if we don't have evidence. This makes you untrustworthy, right, So at some point the French decided that they were going to recruit her to become

She went to Russia. Yeah, she ended up going there for a little while in exchange for becoming a French spy, agreeing to spy for the French exactly. She ended up in Spain and came across this German officer and apparently he suspected her of being a spy. So when she started asking him questions, he gave her old information.

Yeah. Well they went to bed together as well. Sure we should mention this thing is just rife with sex.

Right, and he gave her some old information. This the frenchman who the French intelligence officer who recruited her as a spy but still suspected her as a German spy. Yeah, finally said you know what, I think that what you were really doing was giving French secrets to the German. You're a double agent and we're going to arrest you. And she was arrested in France again no evidence, no evidence whatsoever, and tried for treason and convicted.

Yeah, and basically Thunder knows that the whole experience and was like, I'm going to hold my head high, I'm going to blow you a kiss right before you shoot me. And the firing squad.

Well, supposedly it wasn't the firing squad. It was two nuns that she became friends with and her lawyer who also she had slept with. That's who she blew kisses to, but she refused to blind Ok, that's what it's in this article I saw elsewhere is like to the nuns.

She also slept with her headmaster when she was sixteen.

Yeah, it got kicked out of school for it. Yeah, So she refuses a blindfold. In the end, she's all dressed up and everything for her execution. She's standing ankle deep in mud on a cold October day in nineteen seventeen. Yeah, she refuses to be tied to the pole behind her. She refuses a blindfold and is executed by firing squad. So the weird thing is is about thirty years later, one of the prosecutors in France admitted, quote they didn't have sorry, here's the quote. There was quote not enough

I wonder if there's been a good movie on her, surely there, I don't know if there's been a recent one. She was tall too, she was like almost six feet tall.

Yes, she looks very long.

Yeah, look at her. It's hard to like sometimes it's tough to look at pictures from back then and see the attraction, you know. Yeah, it's just a different time period.

I think it was the fact that she took off her clothes.

And was real sexy and tall, right, yeah, slept with everybody.

Selfish should know. So Matahari probably was not a trader, and they really had a lot of trouble trying to prove that another famous trader was actually a trader and that woman was i' have a toguri.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was. In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and say it, she was not a spy and she was not a treson As trader because it was proven so, and she was pardoned by Gerald Ford.

Right, so she was born. So I'm just going to take her off the list. Okay, we'll finish the story though. Yeah, it's a worthwhile story. Yeah, I have a to Guri. She was born in America in Los Angeles and had a degree in zoology from UCLA, And in nineteen forty one, she traveled to Tokyo to take care of an ailing aunt her family center over there. Yeah, despite the fact that she didn't really speak Japanese, she hadn't been raised

Yeah, and they're like, Hey, you're American, Japanese American, and you have a great voice, and you're perfect for this new thing that we're going to do. Its American rock and roll music, and we're going to play it for the morale of the troops and.

Well to deteriorate the morale.

Well, but she they told her a different story at first though.

Oh okay, they told her it was.

To boost the morale. Really, yeah, Like, I don't think she knew what she was getting into.

That's crazy. Why would the Japanese boost the morale of the American troops in the Pacific.

Well, it was later said that it did, in fact boost the morale. They said Americans love the music and thought the Tokyo Ro's banter was funny and it lifted their spirits.

That's funny.

Yeah, okay, So if they were really trying to do that, it did a pretty poor job of it.

Okay. Nonetheless, she was reporting on things like ships being sunk. Is that correct?

Yeah, she called it. Well that's what she was. Eventually the one thing that they penned on her.

Okay, Well, then that didn't actually happen.

Oh really yeah, okay.

So well let's get back to the story. World War two goes along, yeah, right, it ends, and she tries to get back to America, and as she's doing that, apparently the Japanese government identified her as Tokyo Rose.

Yeah, she was orphan. Anne was her radio name, and Tokyo Rose was just sort of the name of the operation as a whole and not a single person, even though they tied her to that name.

Which led to some great confusion, apparently because they were trying to get her as Tokyo Rose, even though she called herself Orphan Anne, and there were like twelve women including her that were all Tokyo Rose collectively.

Yeah.

Okay, So the Japanese government says that's Tokyo Rose, and she said I'm orphan An. The American Intelligence Services of the Army investated her and could find no evidence that she committed any form of treason, and they were going to let her in the country, back in their place of birth because she traveled without a passport. Yeah, and now she's trying to get back in she needed a passport. Apparently a lot of veterans groups were like, you can't let Tokyo Rose into the US.

Yeah. It was this one guy kind of started the charge and was successful.

The reporter had at Bundridge. Yeah, yeah, Well apparently he got a couple of Japanese guys just to commit perjury and present false evidence against Tokyo Rose.

Yeah. The two most damaging witnesses actually like just completely lied, right. The FBI put him up to it, coached them, yeah, and said you're going to get tried for treason if you don't do this.

So she ended up being tried and convicted for treason. And sentenced to ten years, and she got out in nineteen fifty six, and they tried to deport her, and she successfully battled deportation and moved to Chicago. Yeah, died in two thousand and six.

She worked at a retail store until two thousand.

And six, her father's store.

Two thousand and six, she was working in a retail store. Yeah, at ninety years old, and nobody even people didn't like come in there to see Tokyo Rose, like she was just a worker. Yeah, isn't that weird? It is like such a prominent figure in history, It just a ringing people up.

Yeah, like you said, uh Ford Pardner.

Yeah, Gerald Ford. Then he fell down.

So let's talk about the quizzling just briefly.

Yeah. The quizzling is we mentioned earlier as another name. If you live in perhaps Norway or maybe other parts of Europe, you might be called a quizzling if you're a trader because of Vidcan Quizzling.

Yeah he was.

He basically tried to seize power after buddying up with Hitler in nineteen forty and said, you know what, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to make Norway my own.

Yeah, and he did so for a very very short time. Yeah, he invited the Nazis to come invade Norway. They did. He made a power grab and said I'm now the ruler of Norway, and the Nazis let that slide for about a week.

They're like, sure, sure, ruler.

Then they installed their own guy as the head of Norway and demoted Quizzling to president Minister President. Yeah, and apparently he went to work sentencing Norwegian Jews to concentration camps.

Yeah. He really bad guy.

Yeah. He was very much anti union. He was a fascist, and he was trying to make Norway fastist and he did so. He became the first person to ever announce a coup de ta on television. That's how he made his power grab. Oh really Yeah, I think it was television, although it seems early so maybe it was radio, but I guess he became the first one to announce it over a broadcast.

Right.

So, after the Nazis defeated, he was like.

Oh no, yeah, I have a feeling this is gonna end up bad for me.

Yeah, And he was convicted of treason, sentenced to death, and executed by firing squad.

And you are a quizzler. I'm sorry, quizzling.

If you collude.

Yeah, if you're a Norway and you're trader, you're a quizzling. Yeah.

It's like the Benedict Arnold of Norway. So chuck, you got anything else?

No, And as per usual, this is a top ten that we do about six of and encourage people to go read the rest, including Robert Hanson, who we've talked about.

Yeah, Ezra Pound as we talked about in the Insanity Defense.

Yeah, and the Cambridge five. Yeah, not the Seattle seven or the Jackson five or the Jackson five.

Yeah.

And did we skip another one? Was at it?

I don't remember. Oh the intro, we didn't mention the Cleveland Cavaliers iyre Lebron against Lebron, which I just think that's weird. Well, I think then went berserk.

That's sort of past. And there's rumors of him going back to Cleveland anyway next no way, really maybe his contract's up and they think that he might love nothing more than to go back there and win a championship.

Huh. Well, we'll see, Yeah, we'll see what happens. If you want to learn more about traders, you can type that word into the search bar at house tofforks dot com and it'll bring up this article. And since I said search bar, it means it's time for listener mail.

This is Capgrass. Hey, guys, thanks so much for doing the Capgrass syndrome episode. It was amazing timing came out right around Father's Day and my father suffers from the syndrome. It's been very painful to watch. No yeah wow. During my marriage, we have never lived very close to my parents, but just under three years ago we moved close enough

Well thanks a lot, Jill. We appreciate you sharing that.

Yeah, and I you know, I hope things improve for your father.

Yeah, for sure. If you have a story about something we've talked about ever, we want to hear it, especially if we've helped you explain that to other people. We like that kind of thing. You can tweet to us at sys Kate podcast. You can join us on Facebook dot com slash Stuff you Should Know, and you can send us an email to stuff podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

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