Selects: Finders Keepers: Real Law

Edition Losers Weepers. Yeah, I know, so, Chuck. This is like, this is an actual thing. It's not just like a child's fantasy. Like this is law in some places. And while it doesn't actually state losers weepers, I think it's implied. It's implicit in the law where the finder is the keeper, but you lost it, so you're legally obligated to weep in public. Yeah, and it's funny reading through some of these examples, it sounds like playground stuff. I'll say that

I'll get to some of these. Some of these examples though, I'm like, man, that's not yours, Like, come on, give it up? Did you say that out loud to yourself. I did a couple of these. I was like, man, seriously, man, that's not yours, that's not yours. I'm just have a big justice thing, you know, So yeah, me too. It's when I see people acting like a big baby in saying like this money I found in my wall, this is mine, Like, no, it's not. Well, you would be

a great arbitrator, Yeah, get out of here. It's not yours. You'd be like, my ruling is this man, that's not yours? Give it up. Uh. But no, let's start with John and Mary not their real names. No, No, I guess that's worth pointing out. These are anonymous, an anonymous husband and wife team from nor Cow. Yeah, from northern California. And they are anonymous because they didn't want a lot of attention. And they are still anonymous. We'll call him

John and Mary. And they are famous. Uh. Well, I guess they're not famous, but their cases a little famous because they found ten million dollars and are you know what could be ten million dollars in rare gold coins buried on their property that they own on a walk

and it's known as the Saddle Ridge Horde. Uh. In February two thirteen, they found this, Uh, these four hundred gold coins that no one knows who they belonged to, how they got buried there, but they found them and took a long time sort of coming out with this. They did about as smart as you possibly can. Yeah, they didn't rush to the press or anything and say look what we found. Uh. They took their time because I think they frightfully knew that they were onto something

pretty special. Yeah. So they were out walking on on their property put that away for later with their dog, and they noticed, I guess, the side of a can coming out of the ground, and they went and dug it out, and sure enough, there was a bunch of gold coins in there. Whenever you see a can coming out of the ground, I mean, that's your hope and wish that it's going to be filled with gold coins or jewels or something, right, But it never happens, And

it actually happened to these people. And so they went back again and again and again, and they ended up pulling eight cans filled with gold coins, pure gold coins, out of the ground on their property. And it became very apparent based on the state of preservation of the cans and the dates of the coins in the cans that somebody had buried this no more recently than the very beginning of the twentieth century and probably sometime in

the late nineteenth century. Yeah, and here's a hint. If you ever happened to unearthed a whatever, a can or a glass jar or something full of money buried on your property, just keep digging. Yeah that maybe it, but maybe not. Yeah. I wondered, like, what kind of excavation they undertok points once they were like, oh, there's more there. I'm quite sure they cleared that ground. It's it's it's verified. There's no more cans. So if you're talking actual money,

the face value it's about twenty seven grand. But because these are rare fines in great great condition, most of most of these coins, um, they're thinking that it could be worth as many as as much as ten million bucks. So they're gonna sell it. Well they have been and donate some of this money, and um, you know that it's nice that they're they're donating some of it, but it really sort of um opens up this question of hey, what is the law say about finding something period much

less like on my property? Right? The finders keepers law basically is what you're talking about, and that's really what it's called in case laws, find the finders finders keepers laws or rules. That's right. So, um, there was a lot going on here. These guys, John and Mary owned the land that these coins were found on and that was a huge mark in their favor. Um, But they're in the United States. It really depends on what state you're in, what court you go to, what judge you

happen to pull the case law on. It is so all over the place and so piecemeal that it's it's really almost the luck of the draw. And there are more things that you can do to compound your case to make it more likely that the the thing is is yours. But really it comes down to who has

the best claim on whatever is found. Yeah, Like somebody could come forward Will probably or could have come forward with John and Marry and said, wait a minute, that was my great great grand Pappy Clark's land, and I'm sure he did not intend to clark you those gold coins. Uh, so like we actually should have a claim as his family, um to to to take this stuff from you, and like that could go that could very legitimately go to court to be decided by a judge. And again, like

you said, it's who has the more legitimate claim. Um. What really helps them is, like you said, it was on their land and that it's super old, right exactly. So the fact that it's very, very old means that the person who buried them is probably dead, may not even have any living heirs any longer. Um, that's one thing that it's it's old. The second thing is that it's old, but it's also not necessarily archaeological. It's it's money. So it's the old coins are the definition of treasure.

And what we've entured now is called treasure law. And there's different types of things that we'll see, but there's one one category of found property is called treasure. And what they found was treasure. It was a gold coin, It was very old, but it wasn't necessarily archaeological. Again, it was on their property. And so had somebody come along and said, my grandpappy Clark buried those back when my family owned this property, that's ours, they would have

a claim. And and pretty much anytime something valuable, especially ten million dollars valuable, is found in the United States, it is automatically going to get hammered out in court because the laws are so vague in piecemeal and arbitrary that it's going to going to be hammered out in court. Who has the bigger claim? But because John and Mary found something that was old, that was buried by someone no one knows who buried it, and that it was

found on their property, they have a pretty good claim. Now, if you were going to come and say, my grandpappy buried that, um, your claim would be that was that belonged to my family at one point in time, we think it still does It just happened to be buried and forgotten or left um on land that these people bought. Now, there's a pretty good chance that the court would say, yeah, but they bought the land. And depending on what state you're in, that's that if they own the land, they

owned everything on it, yeah. Or bought the car with money in the trunk, or the house with a super valuable painting buried in the attic. It's sort of all the same, um and And this is modern times. This has been going on since the dawn of time when people would lose or bury something, and they've always had I think back then it was a little more cut

and dried, like an ancient Rome. If you found something like that, half of it went to the emperor, just sort of no if fans or butts uh if In modern England, if you find something um old and rare, uh, they say that belongs to the queen. Um. But here's here's like a good fee for you now now hand

it over. And that's very very new, and that's kind of that represents the the new thinking in treasure law or found property law, which is, look, we can't just let you keep this stuff that may have not just like monetary value, but actually like cultural value as well, like, so we need to have something to do with this. So England, just when I should say, the UK just said everything you find that is valuable or antique, um

and archaeological that belongs to the crown. But the Crown is going to pay you market value, no questions asked, right off the bat. So it's not finders keepers, but it's finders. Here's here's a bunch of money you didn't have before for finding this and bringing it into us.

And the point of this from this position of the Crown or the UK government is that it encourages cooperation with archaeological archaeologists and historians to preserve cultural stuff rather than just having it sold out onto the the commercial market to private collectors because of finder keepers laws. And

that's how it was before. Yeah. I mean, if if it's in the UK today and you find something that is not an ancient gold coin, but if you just find it, let's say, you know, ten thousand pounds bundled together, buried in your in your attic or on the street for that matter, I think you have to file paperwork at a police station. Uh, the owners have twenty eight

days to claim it and then it's yours. In the United States, it varies from state to state and uh sometimes even county to county, but generally it's sort of the same thing. Like it reported to the police. They need to advertise the lost property for a week and then wait about ninety days depending on where you are, to see if anyone claims it, and then after that they might say you can keep it. Yeah, but maybe

it just depends on where you are. That's um, that's like contemporary property that you found, right, Yeah, yeah, this is not like ancient gold coins. This is I found a bundle of cold hard cash. So let's let's take a break, and then we'll take a detour into contemporary property because there are like a whole other set of laws that are like are kind of important too, all right, yes, okay, chuck. So, like we said, there's there's some categories for for property

found property. One of them is treasure, where it's just straight up I found eight cans of gold coins and it's treasure. Some in the UK, there's not really a distinction between that and say, um, like uh, archaeological artifacts. They're virtually one and the same. In the US because the age of the country is young enough, there's a distinction between an archaeological artifact and say, like treasure that's found. But there's then there's contemporary property where the person who

owned it is probably still alive. If not, they're the first generation after them is still probably around um. And that that contemporary stuff is basically broken out into three subcategories. There's lost, abandoned, and mislaid property. And depending on the status of the property UM, the finder may or may not get to keep it, and even that then it depends on where you are. Yes, So as far as

those categories go. Abandoned property is something that uh, they say, forsaken by a previous owner who doesn't have any intention of coming back for it, so they've abandoned. They have abandoned it. Can you imagine like how you would tell whether something's abandoned or not. I don't know. I mean unless they literally leave a note saying finders keepers, I

don't want this anymore. Get this away from me. You know what would it be like a big bag of cocaine that somebody left there, like, I can't do anymore. This is really bad for me. I don't want this. I don't know. Uh, I don't know. That is that? That is the one that is the most confusing. The

other two are much more straightforward. Lost obviously is like the example they gave is you've lost your engagement ring in the street um, and clearly it's something that you want back and maybe have tried to come back and find um, but you have dropped it or lost it somehow. And this mislaid is even more interesting because that is something that you intentionally put somewhere but then kind of

forgot it. And another good example like you went to the bank and we're filling out your your form and then oh my goodness, you got a cell phone call and had to bolt real quick, and you left that money on the counter that you wanted to deposit in the bank. That is mislaid, um, because you clearly had an intention for it and we're just way late or whatever. Right, So it's not technically lost because you put it somewhere on purpose. Yeah, Whereas lost, like you dropped something in

a parking lot. You may not even know you're missing it at the time, right, or you can't find it, right. Um. Mislaid is just like you're no longer where you put that thing down, but you intended to do something with it. There was intent behind it, but you forgot or something or you got called away. Yeah, and that that property mislaid property is supposed to be guarded by whoever owns the property, So in that case it would be the bank.

Somebody from the bank should go over there, collect that money and just set it aside and be like that guy, we'll be back for this, right. Which is it's funny because you know the whole lost and Found box. You think that's just like a good Samaritan thing. Well, really, it's everybody just covering their behind speaking. I guess probably I see it differently now, and I'm a little more bitter because of it. So this Arizona case is one of the ones where I got a little, uh, little pod,

I was okay a little bit. So this is a man died. He hid half a million dollars in cans and AMMO cans, ammunition cans in the walls. And years later the person who owned that house, we're doing some renovations. Outcome these cans and they were like, oh my god, it's a half a million dollars. This is ours. So this man's daughters they knew like dad loved to do stuff like this. He loved to hide things. He loved to hide things away. Uh. They they searched before they

sold the house. They even searched, but obviously did not find these these cans stashed in the walls. Uh. And when this came out, these daughters came forward and we're like, you know, that's our money, that's our our you know, should have gone to us in a will. But my cookie Dad stashed in the wall again jerk. And Uh, these people fought them for that and said, no finders keepers, it's in our wall. We bought this house. Well, so I mean I I can understand your eye or in

your anger, and that's what I'm like. As soon as someone stepped forward would have been like, oh, well here's your money, then like this is your father's. Sure it doesn't belong to me, But what if you were like, actually, we've got a like legitimate legal claim to this. Because depending on where they were and this is Arizona, but

I mean depending on the state. When you buy property from somebody, you buy the property and everything on that property, whether anyone knows it's they're or not, it belongs to you. Is the property owner. For example, Texas is huge on that huge on private property ownership, so much so that if you own property in Texas and there's an archaeological site on your property, that's yours, bub you can set it on fire, you can turn it into a reck room,

you can do whatever you want with that stuff. That's your property. That's how that's how Texas views uhum, private property rights. Right. So these people may have been like, well, we're from Texas, that's just how we do it in Texas, they had a legitimate claim to challenge. I get what you're saying, but they also may have felt like, hey, we bought this property and this came with the property, so this is our sorry, that whole loser's wheepers thing

I think is what they were invoking. Yeah, I mean that that's clearly what they did. But what I'm saying is that is not a that's not cool, right, No, it's that money did not belong to them. They didn't work for it. They didn't buy it because the house because they thought there might be money in the walls. You know, I understand if no one came forward, then great, But as soon as these daughters come forward, like that's their money to do the right thing, that's what I say.

I'm with you, like I would. There's no way I would have challenged these daughters in court, right, you would have been finders, nice guys, losers here you go. Well, I'd make sure, you know, I'd go through all the legal process of making sure that they are who they say they were and it all checked out. I wouldn't like if they came knocking on my door would just go all right here, but I would. I would go through that process and then say, well, okay, then it's

definitely your money. Would you like interview their cousins and be like, what kind of daughters were they? Were they good daughters? Or you know, do they deserve this? At the very least, you're inviting a a heap of bad luck and karma upon your head. Well, if you believe that kind of stuff, sure it comes around. What goes around comes around, That's my motto. Well that's another finders, keepers, losers, weepers. What goes around comes around. And then the third one

everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Or what about this guy in Georgia the public defender talk about a jerk? Yes, there's no this guy had no legal standing whatsoever, whether he was from Texas or anywhere. I didn't. I didn't look him up to see what his name was. But in two thousand thirteen, a public defender found um a diamond ring, I guess, an engagement ring that was worth something like ten dollars and just put it in their pocket and walked away whistling. Man,

what a I mean, especially an engagement ring? Right, that's mine? Yeah? What a jerk? No, I I agree, And um he got in trouble for it. From what I understand, they when the person went back and said I lost my engagement ring at the target helped me. The target said, well,

of course we're gonna help you. Calm down, calm down, peace, brother, And they pulled up their surveillance videos and saw the public defender finding the ring and pocketing it, and they put a warr in out for the public defenders arrest for I think larceny actually, at the very least, for not going to links to find the person whose ring it was, not even links links, pick up a phone or go into the target and be like, hey, I need to speak to a manager. Well, it's funny, it says.

One of the things that you can and should do if is like to do that and go like give that diamond ring to the manager at target, and like, I would never do that if it was something super valuable, I wouldn't trust I wouldn't trust them. I would keep it under my own control and go to the cops. Just walk around with a gun drawn on everybody, like, get back, get back, I found somebody's timond ring. Get back. It's my looking at now, And you're like, maybe I

should just go ahead and rob someplace. Now I got my gun out and I'm protecting this time and ring, and you enter into a life of crime totally inadvertent. It's a justice thing again, Like I don't want people should have stuff that is rightfully there. It's not like, uh, well I just happened to get lucky today, right quick, Like that's what's wrong with this country. Yeah, And I mean, I know you're right about the frand in the behind

the toaster oven. The diamond ring is even more cut and dry to me for sure, but um, that's yeah. This this isn't a parking lot and it was just lost, you know. Um. So yeah, there are certain things that you want to do if you find lost property that

is contemporary, that's obviously lost, that's obviously new. Um. And one of the first things you want to do is take it to the cops and say, here, here's my name and number in case somebody doesn't doesn't claim this, but I'm officially giving it to you the cops for safekeeping, and then probably take out an ad in the paper or on Craigslist or both, and then kick back and wait for the kudos and the praise for being a hero, yeah, or for that thing to be returned to you if

no one claims it. Yep, depending on where you are, I think it, Like you said, in the UK, it's something like a month. In California, it's I saw a hundred and twenty days. I've also seen ninety. Um. Yeah, if you do all the right things and follow all the right steps, it can be yours, free and clear. Not only free and clear, like you're not going to be arrested, free and clear where the person can come back and say, oh, you know I I that was

my ring. If you are a jerk, you can say no, it's my ring now, and the cops would be like, it's it's their ring now. They followed all the right moves. Yeah. They also recommend if it's something really really valuable, maybe like get an attorney on on the thing, like maybe one who would find a diamond ring and not return it right exactly. He's a public defender too. That's what I don't get. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean it was

like an entertainment, a journey. It would make much more sense, it would, I guess, But in public defenders like, well, I don't get paid, this is a really thank plus job, and I'm going to do something for myself for once and then they ended up in jail for doing something for themselves for and then needed a public defender. Yes, ironically, should we take a break, Yeah, we're going to take a break, chuck. And then we are going to go

under the sea. Yeah, where things get really confusing, all right. So this is where things get super super convoluted when you're talking about uh, shipwrecks and literal treasure from like you know, uh, an ancient galleon um, or maybe not ancient, but let's just say galleon. You know it could be yes, we'll say Italians in ancient times they had Oh you know, the oldest intact shipwreck was recently found in the Black Sea. Did you see it. It's an ancient Greek ship Okay,

so ancient Greek. Yeah, Like that's how ancient. It's not even Greek, it's Greek. It's so ancient. Um, it's the kind that Odysseus was lashed two when they were going past the Sirens. It's like that kind of ship. It's that old, right, and um, it's fully intact, just laying on its side at the bottom of the Black Sea. It's just beautiful, beautiful little shipwreck. And that would be an ancient galleon. I guess you could call it all right.

So this is where like I don't even know how to talk about this, almost because it's so convoluted, because it can it can matter whose ship it originally was us, it can matter what was on that ship. It can matter where the ship is now resting in whose waters or if it's international waters or partially on one side or the other, which is when it gets super confusing. Who the ship was leased from, who was least from, who is in charge of because most of these aren't accidents.

I know, uh that it has pointed out that sometimes like a scuba diver might find something like this, but usually it's an expedition looking for this stuff specifically, so who runs that or whose insurance companies have a claim and what international agreements are made, and it's just it's almost like it's so case by case there really is no rule. Yeah, if you thought land property was convoluted, under undersea archaeology property treasure property is just totally off

the charts. So with um, that was one of the nerdiest sentences I've ever uttered. Yeah, I wrote an article years ago about undersea archaeology, and I did a lot of that research then, and it is just really like basically what happens is is once something is found, then everyone just lawyers up and starts fighting. Yeah, exactly exactly.

And I think the reason why UM it's it's particularly convoluted in in um contentious for the undersea um treasure is that the treasures that they're finding are just so eye popping lee valuable that it's worth, you know, going to court for fifteen twenty years over billions of dollars in some cases. Yeah. There was a wreck called the San Jose that was discovered and it was announced in

two thousand fifteen. I'm not quite sure when Columbia discovered it, but it's off the coast of Cartagena and in TuS and fifteen the Colombian government came forward and said, we found the San Jose. It was a galleon. It was sunk by the British three hundred years ago. It wasn't Greek, no, no, it was. It was Spanish. But it was transport gold, silver gems from Peru back to Spain to to finance

a war. It was loaded with with valuables. And they think that this wreck today the valuables aboard are worth between one and twelve billion dollars. This is not something that any one of these parties or countries is gonna give up on. Now. It's the kind of shipwreck. It's the kind of treasure that can actually affect world markets, like the value of goods on world markets above on land, because this stuff has been under the sea and out

of the market for so long. When it comes onto the market, it could actually depress the value of the of like gold, because there's so much of it suddenly coming on the market. That's how rich this treasure is. Yeah, and it's funny here this article you sent. Um, there is a UNESCO convention in two thousand one on underwater

cultural heritage findings that have best practices. They're not actually like you know, laws and they're they're like, we'd be happy to help out with this, but nobody's called this. That's so you and yeah, they they don't want them involved. Basically, they're just like, now we're going to work it out with the lawyers. They're like, hey, thanks, thanks a lot,

Just go sit over there until we call your pretty much. Um. So, the San Jose has a lot of people arguing over for example, Spain is saying, well, it's a Spanish galleon. Give us our give us our money back. Colombia is like, yeah, it's in our coastal waters. That's our territorial waters that belongs to us. Peru says, yeah, you guys came and extracted that from our indigenous population back when we were

Spanish calling. And that's one that doesn't come up very often, but you think it should, especially in the New World stuff, right, Yeah, like that that was our original stuff to begin with. Even so we should have never been on that boat. Ironically, they probably have the least claim to it, sadly, but

there's why they're going to get it. There's I wonder though, if they'll get a portion of it, though, I think if they said no, this is this is a thing, this is legitimate, they could conceivably get caught in, but they're not going to get the whole thing. I don't think anybody's going to get the whole thing, being clear. So there's all these different groups arguing over it, and it's big of a mess as it is, it's actually not the biggest mess of a treasure found a board

a shipwreck. There's a ship called the Notre Dame de Deliverance. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, that was um that sank forty miles off of Florida in seventeen fifty five. I mean, one of just hundreds and hundreds of ships to crash off the coast of Florida, and a U S salvage company found it in two thousand two. And this is the one that I was talking about. It's partially in international waters, partially as part of the Florida Keys National

Marine Sanctuary. The Spaniards least the ship from the French West Indies company and so they all have a claim. And then complicating this is the fact that in the United States we passed the abandoned Shipwreck deck, which means all shipwrecks within US waters, uh, which is what like three miles off of any of our coastlines. Um our

US properties? Is that right? So it's super convoluted. And that's actually the territorial waters thing has kind of been the toughest one, or the the best claim that any country can lay on a ship is now it's in our territorial waters. Customarily that means that's yours, that's yours to deal with. But when the ship is in international waters, are partially in international waters, that's just a whole different

ball game. And even when something's in territorial waters, like Spain's not gonna go away now, you know, when two to three billion dollars is on the table, they're gonna say no, We're gonna use our diplomats to press you know, at least getting a portion of this. France will do the same thing, and the salvers are like, well, hey, wait a minute, this is this is ours. And actually, at first a Florida Um Florida judge said, yep, it's yours,

free and clear. Two to three billion dollar booty is yours. Take it, put on this eye patch in this cool hat and go get it. Well, but you have to get Spain's permission to go get it, right exactly, so Spain's gonna say no, we want to have something to do with this. But that Shipwrecked Act, the whole, the whole reason why the United States is even involved is from that Shipwrecked Act. It's very similar to that UK Act where it basically says, nope, it belongs to us.

Where the United States it's in our territorial waters, it belongs to us. But here's a significant portion of it, usually like of it. And the point of that is to keep um salvers and as your hunters interested enough that they're actually going out and salvaging these archaeological sites. But they're doing it under the jurisdiction of the state or federal government, which says you've got to keep daily logs.

You have to break the reck site into strings of square meters, you have to catalog everything, you have to have a certified archaeology a marine archaeologist on board throughout the entire voyage overseeing this whole thing. You gotta do it right, and we'll give you of what we can get for it, which is substantial in some some cases. But it's not like treasure hunting is like a cheap activity.

It's a very expensive undertaking. Yeah, it's seriously expensive. And like they don't just like these treasure hunting companies don't just go in there and say, hey, I think there's something there, let's go grab it. I mean, they do all their research because it is so expensive. Two ensure as much as possible that they will have a claim to it in the end. You know, they don't just go in there willy nilly and hopes that the courts

will decide with them. No, no, for sure, but I mean I think that's the probably of significant portion of the operating cost of a treasure hunting outfit. Is the court costs and fees um to to get the to to get the rights to the treasure. I would guess yeah. And in this case too. I'm sure France was like Florida judge like, I don't care what you say, but

Florida judges have a big saying this. They're about as professional as you could get, as far as as um passing judgment on treasure claims for sunken ships, because Florida has the most sunken ships of any state in the Union, something like six thousand to ten thous estimated shipwrecks from piracy, hurricanes, all this stuff. Um, Florida's got it. Also, if you're gonna if you're looking for a judge who has experience on ruling on a case like this, Florida is probably

your best bet. Don't go to Oklahoma. That would be my my suggestion. That's just good advice all around. And it can also so um if you're a treasure hunter. Not only can the court costs be killer, you might be put in jail. There's a guy named Tommy Thompson who's a very famous treasure hunter who found the wreck of the Fitzgerald. No, although, man, there are a few wrecks that fascinate me more than the MM Fitzgerald. I can just sit there and look at those eerie pictures

of it all day long. I can I just sing that song over and over. Um, you shouldn't do that. He'll drive you insane. No, he found the wreck of the s S. Central America, which was a steamer that went down in a hurricane off the coast of South Carolina in eighteen fifty seven with four d and twenty five souls aboard and three tons of gold. And um, he found it, and he went and sold a bunch of stuff and didn't pay his investors, and a judge put him in jail in Ohio, where he's been sitting

since I think two thousand fifteen. Because he refuses to say, we're five hundred gold coins from the wreck. Quent he just won't say. He said that he gave him to somebody and believes, but he can't remember who they are. That's really, that's what his that's what his lawyer had to tell The Washington Post. That's pretty funny. Yeah, I'd just be like that to somebody and he can't remember who. Yeah.

I mean, I wish we could have been a little bit more like black and white about the shipwreck thing. But it's just it's just so depends on the case. Yeah, you know, there is no solid rule. There's a couple

of solid rules. There's one above ground where if you are caught digging on federal land that's a felony um And any stone tool found in the United States belonged to the federal government automatically, I would guess, unless it's in Texas, in which case the Texas authorities and the federal authorities would fight with one another over your right to own that stone tool. That's a good point. So I think that's about it for finders keepers. Good one. Yeah,

I thought so too. Uh. If you want to know more about finders keepers, go find something and say finders keepers and see what happens and then let us know. And in the meantime, we're gonna sit here and do listener mail. I'm gonna call this Stanford prison prison experiment. Follow up angry follow up, Yeah, you read this one. Hey, guys, just want to say thank you for your episode on Zimbardo. I'm a cognitive psychologist and have been teaching for years, and it makes me angry in a way I have

never been angry before. You do your best to fact check and show that you're giving this to and she's not talking about our show, by the way, She'll nott Zimbardo. You do your best to fact check and show you're giving the students reliable information. But then someone pulls crap like this again Zimbardo and causes serious problems for us as teachers. How did I handle this chapter this year? Well? Number one, I taught it as normal as the text

takes forever to be updated. And number two I showed them the video ghost of Abu Grabe is it abigrade Abigrade and had had them right about how Simbardo's study predicted this would happen. And then three had them all listen to your podcast. Now they are all as angry as I am, partially at me for doing that, but I wanted them to feel the effort they put into it go to waste. But I had a very interesting observation in one class the publicity and popularity off the study.

Could it have actually created the dystopian prison environment and part at abi grabe through expectation? Oh, I see like a self fulfilling prophecy. I guess so. Basically, was Zimbardo the actual Lucifer in his book having an effect not only in society as a whole and what we believe about humanity, but how we act we now live in his hell? Then she says thanks again. Uh, and that is from Alison Demming from Try County Tech, temporarily insane with rage. It's right. I don't blame her. Yeah, that

was That was a good episode, man, one of the best. Yeah, thanks Allison. Yeah, thanks a lot, Allison. Thanks for writing in with the support. We agree with you wholeheartedly. It's passion. It's not anger, that's right, man. Or maybe it's anger. I don't want to tell you I feel man, Chuck, you are killing it these days. So if you want to get in touch with us, you can go to stuff you should Know dot com and check out our social links and world via email at stuff podcast at

how stuff Works dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts, my Heart Radio visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.