How the Escape from Alcatraz Worked

to knock your socks clean off. And yes, Chuck, we are indeed proud of this book. It is truly, indubitably the first Stuff you Should note book and it's coming out this November and you can order it now, pre order everywhere you get books, so do that, and we thank you in advice. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of our Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck, Jerry's

out there and that ether somewhere. Um like that one kid being transmitted from the camera to the TV in Willy Wonka. Wow, I got that one eight kinds of wrong. But anyway, this is stuff you should know which is appropriate? Did I would get something eight kinds of wrong right at the beginning. Did you ever hear the story from Gene Wilder about the move at the beginning of that movie where he walks out with a cane where he did the spill the summersault. Yeah, he see sticks a

cane in the ground and does a summer salt. He said that that was his idea. And this just shows the brilliance of Gene Wilder, And he said he did that because he knew from that moment on no one would believe anything that that character said. Oh yes, I have heard that before. That is that is brilliant. That man was a brilliant man in a wonderful human being.

I loved him. He's got One of his last interviews on Conan O'Brien was so great because Conan was just gushing and Gene Wilder was very I think, kind of taken back by how much he means to people. Um uh, have you ever seen? Oh no, that wasn't the question I had. Did you know? Did you know that? The question was did you fart? Did you know that Conan O'Brien and Dennis Leary are cousins. I don't think I knew that. According to Conan O'Brien asking a question on Jeopardy,

that is his cousin did not know that. Uh. Speaking of Jeopardy, Uh, we have a colleague named Ken Jennings who was on Jeopardy. And we have another colleague, two colleagues called Daniel and Jorge, and they have a um A podcast called Daniel and Jorge Explained the Universe. It's pretty cool. But they also, Chuck, I just saw have a PBS Kids animated program coming out September seven called Eleanor Wonders Why and it looks adorable. Wow. That sounds

like right at my daughter, Alley. Yeah, so check it out everybody. PBS Kids September seven, Eleanor Wonders Why And congrats Daniel and Jorgey. Do you have any famous cousins, famous or infamous? I think we are the famous cousins. That's that's how sad our families are. Yeah, it feels pretty great, though. I keep being like, hey, let's have another family reunion this month. Speaking of infamous cousins, Chuck, how about those Anglan brothers. Huh? Yeah, man, this is uh.

I could have thought I kind of thought, we did this, I know we do, we do one on Alcatraz, and maybe it just briefly touched on it. Absolutely because this is uh, this movie, the nineteen what was it seventy nine Escape from Alcatraz movie with Clint Eastwood was one of my favorite movies as a kid. It's a good movie. I went. I watched it just the other night as part of this. Yeah, it was an HBO special, so

I must have been. I didn't see it in when I was eight, and probably was like ten or eleven, and it was one of those movies I probably watched over a dozen times when I was twelve twelve years old, followed by Krull and Outline. Oh man, those are great. They always went together, though, didn't they? Yeah, in war games. I mean that those are all HBO specials. But this is a really good movie. And I'm a big, big

fan of prison escape movies. And I was thinking today when I was looking over this stuff again that it's so weird that like, these guys are hard and criminals, and yet when you're researching this, all you can think about is, oh man, I hope they got out of there, and I hope they lived the fat life in Brazil. Well that really speaks to like who they are, what they became because of this escape, which is put most

simply their folk heroes, I guess. So, Yeah, that's definitely a part of being a folk hero is that you can transcend the kind of like judgments that society typically levies against people like criminals. Like if you if you are so good at your craft, are so good at something to do with criminality that, um, you transcend being judged for your crimes. That's you've become a folk hero for sure. It's like dB Cooper. Yeah, and I think

it helps that. Uh you know, these guys were armed robbers and thieves and I think Frank Morris and we'll get into all these who these dudes are, but he was a drug trafficker. But they weren't rapist and murderers that I don't think you can transcend that, know, they they were definitely non violent criminals from everything that I've seen. They used to toy gun in one of these robberies. Yeah,

it's adorable. Well, let's talk about these guys like you were saying, Um, we're talking about a group of people who escaped from Alcatraz, and as far as anyone knows, they are the only ones who really may have escaped from Alcatraz. They vanished in nineteen sixty two, um, last seen leaving their cells and were never heard from again. And like you said, they were all hardened criminals, like

lifelong rear criminals. Frank Morris was thirty five when he left Alcatraz, and he had been a criminal since he was thirteen. Um, he was in and out of institutions, and like he said, he wasn't a violent criminal. He wasn't a rapist or murder or anything like that. He was he was he liked to to to sell the drugs. He had, like his forehead tattooed or a star tattooed on his forehead for a while, which he very sensibly had removed later on. Um, is that what that means

but that he was a drug trafficker? No, I think that means that he did a few too many drugs one night. Oh he really did have a star. Yeah, I thought that was some like prison thing for like the tear drop tattoo means you doesn't that mean you killed somebody or something. That's what I've always heard. But I don't know. It could just be or been legend, but yes, what I've always heard he really did have a star. Okay, yeah, I think he got super wasted,

had a star tattooed on his forehead. There was a tattoo or just far too handy that yeah, yeah, which I think the old saying don't ever make friends with tattoo artists or at least drinking buddies. Sure, that's true. But he was also super smart too. Yeah, And they point this out in the movie, um and a lot of the movie. I mean, it's pretty close to the real story that they did a really good job, but they do make a big deal in the movie about

how smart he was. I know i Q is sort of taking or leave it as far as uh that being a real measurement of one's intelligence. But he supposedly had an i Q of one thirty and the b o P which stands for the was it Bureau of Prisons. I didn't know they had rankings, but they had rankings of uh intellectual intellectuality? Is that a word? Uh? Yeah, I think so it gets the point across ergo it is. Yeah, And I'm curious what other rankings they have. But Um,

you know, best looking, best abs. But he was in the top two percent supposedly in the American prison system as far as his intellectual capabilities. Yeah, so you you hit on a point there. I think we need to at least at least bring up like the the movie did follow the actual the truth of the matter fairly closely in some cases. In other cases it veered wildly away, Like there was a character based on one guy who was very much involved, but they didn't even use his name,

and they made him seem less involved than he actually was. Um, there's a lot that the movie gets wrong. But the problem with covering this is that there's so many gaps and holes that are so easily and casually filled in that you can't help but wonder, like, wait, was this was this detail provided by somebody who saw the movie and took the movie as fact, Like where are we exactly? And just how pure the knowledge and understanding is of

this escape. So you have to just kind of bear that in mind that it's a it's kind of a blur in the annals of crime as far as um factuality goes. Yeah, but it's a good story, great story, and most of this is pretty true. I think so. Frank Morris was four years into a fourteen year stint and this was for a bank robbery and he was transferred to the rock in nine sixty. It's Alcatraz. It's a prison island or an island prison, and so I might say the island itself is a prison, which we'll

get to. And then his buddies you mentioned the England brothers J W. John William and his younger brother Clarence. We're thirty and twenty nine years old, and they were from a very big family of migrant farm workers in South Georgia. They traveled all over the country where wherever the work was, basically as a big family, and they got into stealing things from people. Yeah, and they were

the ones who used the toy gun. Later on, they were I think visiting family in a small town called Columbia, Alabama, which is in the southeast of the state, and they found out that this bank had been around for a hundred years in this town. It had never been robbed. So they assumed, we're going to change that. It'll be easy to knock over. And apparently it was pretty easy

to knock over. And they had a toy gun that they used, and they still managed to get away with at least I think like ten grand or twenty grand something, a pretty substantial amount of money. And they were on the run for a little while but got caught in the Alabama AND's were not very happy with it, and they threw the book at these brothers. They got twenty five years sentences for robbing a bank with a toy gun, and that actually was way better than the sentence they

initially faced, which was the potentially the death panel. That's yeah, so so they were they were. They were caught and busted. And they had a third brother named Alfred too, who was also involved, but he was never sent to that to the rock as you put it, I bet it was not a bet. It was actually a lot easier to rob banks back then. Yeah, it was way easier

to be a criminal, even just a few decades ago. Yeah, just in general, I think now it's like I don't even try, No, you got I mean, if it's not the cops and their cameras, he got some dumb neighbor with their cameras like me right, Oh man, I hate to get off topics so quickly, and we should post this on the Facebook page or something, or maybe I'll put it on Instagram. What I got attacked by a squirrel and it was captured by my front of the house camera. Oh yeah, everyone wants to see that. This

is great. I just I was taking out some recycling and I heard some rustling, and I went around the corner and I was like, this squirrel was freaking out, and then he literally leapt if you freeze fram it, he leapt three feet in the air and hit my leg and ran up my leg a little bit. And then wow, and I react thustily. That's awesome. You know, would be wonderful as to intercut close ups of your face when you got that Charlie Horse on internet round up.

Oh my god, in this squirrel attack, it's a good thing. I don't care about myself and looking dumb. Why did you? Why did that squirrel attack you? What did you do to it? I didn't do anything. It was freaking out. And then I turned and looked after I dropped the recycling off, and he and another squirrel we're going at it in our oak tree. So I think he was just he was all riled up. He might have been Yeah, did he have a star tattooed on his forehead, did

right on his little tenty free forehead. Yes, please do post that. Okay, So all right, these guys are all in Alcatraz. And Alcatraz at the time was um. Like I said, it was sort of the rock itself was the prison. And that was the idea was that even if you're even if you managed to get out of the prison that they eventually built, which we'll talk about, then you still can't get out of there because you gotta swim over a mile to the nearest body of land,

about one point three miles. That water is really cold, the currents are brutal, the winds are really strong. San Francisco Bay is not you know, for people that haven't been there, it's not just some lovely little chill body of water that you hang out in. No, it's not a very hospitable body of water. It's not so um. The the idea was that, yeah, like when you got sent to Alcatraz, you weren't getting off of that island

and you were either paroled or died. Um. And that was actually the reason that the England's and Frank Morris were sent there was because they had all met at the Federal pen and at Atlanta, I guess the wind down in Grant Park, right, Yeah, which that building is amazing. It's one of the most forbidding buildings in the world. I would say it looks like an old timey federal penitentiary. Al Capone was there too for a little while. Yeah.

I actually drove by there not too long ago with my daughter for the first time, and I was like, check out that building. Look at that. It's like, that's a prison to what's a prison? And I went, oh, well, I guess I got to explain that. I'll tell you when you're eighteen if you make it and don't go

to prison first. Right. So they all met at the Federal pen and Atlanta, and I can't remember if they actually made it out or if they were called escaping, but they were known escape artists like the um Frank

Morris that escaped from places in Florida. Um. They didn't stay put when you when you put them in prison, and so that's why they were all sent to Alcatraz and just crazily as they arrived between nineteen sixty and nineteen sixty one, they were all put pretty close together, and in fact, the Angland brothers had adjoining cells, which is a very stupid thing to do, but that's what they did in part, I believe because there is a certain thread of arrogance that ran through the administration of

um Alcatraz that it was just basically inescapable. Yeah, and I think you also sort of want happy prisoners, and I've heard of request like that being made possible before, like hope you put me near my brother, We're gonna be a lot better behaved. Yeah, we're definitely not going

to to break out. Um. I don't think we mentioned either, Like Alcatraz was so formidable as a just an island that the very first time they used it was when the Army put soldiers there who who cheered on President Lincoln's death, And so they didn't even bother building a prison though. They just built some barracks through them on the island. It's like, well, you're in prison now, because good luck getting out of here. Yeah, that's what I saw too, um. And when the Bureau of Prisons took over,

they they really fortified it even more. Like you said, there was a larger building that housed everything from like the mess hall to the cell blocks. So when you were in a cell in a cell block. You were in you were in a little tiny prison inside a larger prison, inside this island prison. UM. And the cell blocks themselves had like three inch thick concrete walls, reinforced iron bars. The building itself was made a very thick concrete. It was it was just meant to to to basically

tell you there's there's no getting out here. But UM, what's what's crazy is UM Frank Morris and the England Brothers. They weren't the first people to ever try to bust out UM. I believe they were part of a total of thirty six people who tried to escape in the history of the prison. UM. Everybody else, almost everybody else was either UM killed, UH captured, or their bodies were found except and I did not realize this, UM Morris and the England Brothers were not the first people to

vanish without a trace from Alcatraz. Had you heard about UM, Ted Cole and Ralph Roe. I hadn't heard about them until this, But in the thirties, late thirties, they did escape, and they did vanish, and you know, sort of like where this story is going there, I don't think anyone wants to admit that from the prison system that they could have really made it. So they're like, nah, they die,

they drowned. But the thing is, the thing that really differentiates um, the England Brothers and Frank Morris from guys like Ted Cole and Ralph Roe. They all shared in common that they escaped from Alcatraz and vanished without a trace.

The thing that differentiates Morris in the Englands is that they're folk heroes because almost exclusively because of this plan they devised and executed, and that the plan was so good and so complex and well done that it actually lends credence to the idea that they may have survived and escaped from Alcatraz genuinely. And what they had in common is that they were all top ten in best

abs in the prison system. And what everybody listening right now has in common is that you're about to hear an ad to Okay, we're back everybody, UM, and I think it's high time we we talked about the plan, the escape plan, don't you. Yeah, if you're gonna escape from Alcatraz, Um, it's not the kind of thing where you distract a guard and just run and jump over

a fence. You gotta start this thing. Uh, this plan many months in advance, and by all accounts they and by all accounts meaning from the one account that we really have this, they started planning easily six months before the escape. They start developing this plan. They start collecting kind of anything they can get their hands on that

they think they can use. Um everything from just loose nuts and bolts and screws to um things that I mean, they actually ended up using a lot of this stuff, but I got the impression that they were just kind of like any time they saw something that they could squirrel away and hide, they would do it because you

never know what you could use it for. Yeah, and so like over the six month period, they amassed something like a d tools that they either stole, had stolen for them rebuild, or repurposed out of other stuff, or just made completely out of like their own labor. Like,

they had a pretty extensive toolkit that they created. UM. One of the ways that they got a lot of the tools was from Alan West, who we haven't mentioned yet, but a lot of people don't realize there was a fourth conspirator in the Alcatraz escape UM who was a major integral part of it. But who actually didn't go along with the escape As we'll see that part of the movie is so tough. It is, especially with that poor guy. He he just looks came out of the

womb like down on my luck? Can you spare a dime's? But he was, um, I think he was the guy who played Kramer on Seinfeld in the in the pilot, in the NBC pilot. Yeah, so like in the show the I playing Framer on the show. In the show, I think that was him that he stole the eminem's I think, yeah, so he was an escape from Alcatraz to Yeah, he just he's perfect for that part. But this guy named Alan West, he he was on the painting crew and he put that to use big time.

One of the first ways he did it was he was in the prison barber shop and managed to steal a pair of electric clippers while he was in their painting and they were like, hey, this motor will come in handy. Well, let's repurpose it into a power drill, and they did, Yeah, that's pretty cool. He also, uh, I mean just having a little motor so handy. So he came across a vacuum cleaner that wasn't working, and

he said, hey, do you mind if I repair this? Uh, I gotta shake the tree first, but after that, you mind if I repair this? And that what they call it the vacuuming. No, and he got a pee on the on the chain gang that you call it shaking the tree. Oh, I guess I think that's what it's called. Sure, But I mean it wasn't have to do with fixing a vacuum nothing. It's just prison humor. Oh. I got to me a lot of prison jokes. So all the inmates listening right now is busted out laughing. Like he said,

shake the tree. Well, it's a drinking game. How we'll explain. If you're listening from prison, if someone says shake the tree, you take a drink of pruno. Well that's another drink. Yeah, that's the but that's what you would drink when somebody said, shake the tree, the tree one more time, Shake the tree, guys. I think everybody's got a pretty good buzzing prison right now. So he says, let me fix this vacuum cleaner. They say,

that's fine. He saw that the vacuum cleaner had a couple of different motors, and one of which he used to repair and actually make, you know, pass it off as a working vacuum cleaner. And then he just took that other one, and that meant that they could make a drill that was even more powerful than the other one. Yeah. Um, so they had not one, but two electric drills um at their disposal, which kind of gives you a pretty good idea of just how dedicated and smart and crafty

these guys were, right Yes, um. They also very famously ended up with fifty five zero different raincoats that were made from rubber prison issue raincoats, so they got from other inmates. And this really reveals something that I think

a lot of people don't necessarily realize. It seems like basically all the inmates in prison with England and the England's and Morris were well aware of their plans, not necessarily every detail or even any of the details, just that they were planning on breaking out, and so they managed to get their hands on like fifty different raincoats from other prisoners that they used to to build um a life raft and life vests with pretty great I think the idea was is that these guys didn't like

being on Alcatraz. So they kind of figured, Hey, if these guys actually get out, they're going to close this place down. We're going to get out of here. You know. I don't I don't know if I would have gone along with that rationale, I would have thought, it's going to be even worse for us here. But we'll we'll hang on to what happened until the end of the show. How about that. I think everybody would have kept their pruno from you had you raised that point. You know.

So they've got all this stuff. They got paint, they got paper, they collect hair and uh from the from the barbershop. They like sweep up this hair and keep that. You might be thinking, why in the world would they need that. We'll just wait, you'll see. And then they had about three and a half hours each evening after dinner, slop and before lights out where they had to work, um and create, you know, a way out of their

prison cell. And then once they get out of their prison cell, like you said, they're still in this larger building, then a way out of there. But the first trick is getting out of their individual cells. Yeah. Well, so from what I understand, that took up like the lion's share of the time between when they first hatched this plan in the time when they finally escaped. Um, they were like these little six by eight or nine or something,

very small ventilation chef cemented into the wall. Um. These the grates were cemented into the wall, but really it was just a little metal grade over a hole. So they figured it they could start chipping away at that hole and enlarge the hole into something they could crawl through. And that's exactly what they did. UM. Eventually, over time, Frank Morris and then both of the England brothers managed

to create these holes. UM. And they did so by by serving his lookout for one another while the other one chipped one night, and then they would trade off that kind of thing. And then here's the question that I have. I could not confirm one way or the other if it was a movie thing or if it was a real life thing. But in the movie they create, um these kind of cardboard false walls that they're able to fill the hole with that it looks like the

great is still there and the wall is still intact. UM. So when they were out of their cells, they could put this false wall in behind them and um, nobody would be any the wiser when they just walked past and casually glanced in there. I don't know if they did that or not. I mean, it's a pretty great detail of the movie, so I'm inclined to believe it. Let's go with it. What I didn't see in or I don't I haven't seen it in a long time. Did they have those drills in the movie, because I

just remember a lot of digging with them. They kind of just like used a sharpened spoon as a little mini pick a sharpened spoon, uh, with a the warden's fingernail clippers that he steals in like one of the first scenes. But there was no drill in the movie, was there? Not that I remember? So there definitely were two drills. One of the one of the drills, that one with the vacuum motor. They actually figured out it's just too loud, it's too powerful um and too loud

that so they abandoned that one. But I don't know what became of the um hair clipper drill. I didn't hear anything about that one other than that they created it and used it well. They managed to dig through though where they could get their bodies out of the cell uh, and that just must have felt like, you know,

we're we're halfway there, point guys. So they um from there it led to a utility cord or it was about a meter wide, and there were no guards in here because this is sort of like the guts of the prison, like why would you need to guard where there are no people wink wink uh And in that quarter or they could kind of move around freely. They would climb up to the ceiling. This is like a three story cell block still within a larger building though of course, like we mentioned, and then they had a

full on workshop up there for a few weeks. They could store their tools, they could hide their stuff, they could build uh. We haven't really talked about the rafts, but where they were much they would build their rafts there and it just sort of sort of serves as their staging area where they would eventually leave from to go buy this big heavy iron grate to a ventilation chaft, which actually finally led to the rooftop. Right. But that big iron gray was a big iron problem because the

bars were reinforced. There was they were um I think welded or maybe screwed I'm not sure into this um iron ring that covered this ventilation shaft. So it was a big problem. And then they figured out that the bolts holding this whole thing together were actually not nearly as strong as the bars that made up the great and the ring that held the bars. So they started working away at cutting these bolts. One way or another,

I think they created a wrench. They built themselves a wrench, and they managed to use that to some pretty good effect. But it went from digging out of their cells to figuring out a way to get through this great um. That was kind of like stage two um. And then let's talk about the raft, because the raft is extremely important part of this whole thing, and I think really one of the things, if not the thing, that that lends credence to the idea that they might have actually

made it. Yeah, so they got these raincoats, and back then raincoats were just basically sheets of rubber. Yeah, they didn't breathe very well, very hot things like Gordon's Fisherman type of stuff. A sweaty Gordon's Fisherman. Oh yeah, that guy was always sweaty. So they ended up creating a six ft by fourteen foot life raft from these raincoats from UH an article in Popular Mechanics which shows up a couple of times, very useful magazine if you were

trying to escape prison. And it was an article about a hunter who had gotten lost and survived hunting geese that he attracted using rubber decoys that he'd made. So they get this idea. They build these inflatable pontoons made from these raincoat sleeves, so they were stuffed inside and made air tight by gluing rubber cement contact cement over the seams and then pressing them against steel pipes which

vulcanized that it just basically melted everything shut. And then you have these floatable pontoons that you could use and craft this larger raft. Yeah. So they had something that was inflatable that because those seams were vulcanized, it would hold the air. The air couldn't escape. Um. And they used a concertina. Um oh, I can't remember, Handsome Pete.

There's like a little a little guy who plays the accordion down on the docks that looks just like Krusty the clown in one of the Simpsons episodes, and he's playing a concertina it's like a squeeze box. It's like an accordion without the keys in the buttons. Yeah, but it acts as a bellows because it moves air. Essentially, that's what they used it for. They modified it so that they could use it to inflate their raft very quickly with this concertina that I guess they stole from

the prison music room, which is pretty great. So they're working on all this stuff and the raft in particular, this this is like the the lynchpin of this whole plan is this raft in these life preservers. That work fell to Alan West. So while these dudes were chipped, we're like chipping away at the ventilation holes. Um. Alan West was standing lookout for most of them, and he was creating this raft in these life fests, and so he wasn't able to chip away at his ventilation hole

nearly as fast. So while they were out, you know, working on the great event cover great, he still had no way out of his cell. At that point. He hadn't made it all the way through. Yeah, And you know, we should point out something that earlier we mentioned. If if they happened to walk by and they don't notice a hole in the wall, because they may or may

not have made these false uh grates and walls. If you're a listener and you don't know the story, you might have said, like, yeah, but wouldn't they have noticed there was no one in the cell? Good question. What they did was they made paper mache recreations of themselves. They made these busts. They use that prison hair so cross and use that reversement again to glue this hair on. And if you see the real things, it's not Madam

Tussu or anything. It's not like, boy, look at that likeness photo realistic, but it's in the dark and you're sort of, I think, as a human trained to see what you're looking for. So if your guard that's just walking by, you see a head turned the other way with with prison hair on it and some pillows under a blanket, and you you don't think it looks fake.

It just looks like it wouldn't like Ferris Bueller style with um like a fake snore on the Hi fi system or anything, right, But you just kind of walked past it. It worked well enough, Like they did this for weeks and weeks and weeks with these paper mache busts,

and it worked they never got noticed. No they didn't because I mean remember like that that they were working between the end of dinner and lights out, So they just seemed to have made it like like they went to bed early, um and put the paper mache busts in there. Sure are sleepy. Yeah, there too much for you. Frank got a lot. I got a lot of questions about this, but I'm not gonna investigate any exactly. So do you want to talk about the escape and then

go to a break? Yeah, I think that's the way to do it. Okay. So finally they get to this point where great is the bars are removed from this great enough that they can slip through, and they realize that they have, um, they have successfully penetrated to the exterior of the building. That's right, okay, on the roof. Well, they know they can get on the roof. Now they know there's go night there at least once to be like all right, I don't know, I haven't heard anything

like that. And there's a lot of questions about why this particular night. Was this the very first night that they were able to get out and there like let's go um, which seems likely to me, or were they waiting for a particular night, or like you said, they

tested it before they do any dry runs. We don't really know that, um, But what we do know is that on Monday, June eleven, UM, J. W. Angling, Clarence Angling and Frank Moore's all left their cells and the first thing Frank Morris did was go to help Alan West finished um puncturing the hole through his cell wall. Course all had not done this yet. He's like, come on, we gotta go. But apparently part of the plan was to help him um punch the hole out the rest

of the way and then he would escape with them. Um. Frank Morris apparently tried in vain and uh went off to get Clarence England to to come try, and they traded off, and then Clarence tried. He couldn't do it either, So I guess he had the very um, uh uncomfortable I'll be right back. I gotta go, I gotta go shake the tree or something like that. I'll be right back. You stay here. And that was the last anybody ever saw of Frank Morris, Clarence England or J. W. England

from from that moment until today. Yeah, so they get to that corridor, they climb up to um the roof of the cell block, and then through that ventilation shaft that great is no longer a problem, and allan west they can just barely hear him saying like, you guys are coming back right any minute now, you said, Um, so there's this rain cover on top. They pushed that hang off and this this all makes some noise, and and in the movie they they kind of accurately displayed

that to us, some clanking and clanging around. And I don't think in the movie they did this, but in real life, supposedly there was so much noise that they did like a little forty five minute, um kind of a search of the area. Didn't see anything going on. No, they didn't go up on the roof, that's for sure, and uh, they basically didn't find anything. So the guys are out. They shimmy about fifty feet to the ground via drain pipe, which is how you always do it,

go to that perimeter fence. And I'm sure the perimeter fence was fine, but I think the idea was that they're never getting out anyway. So I don't think it had like fifteen feet of razor wire or anything. Like that. I think it did have double barbed wire at least for sure. That's nothing. It's not like concertina wire or anything. No, nothing like that. Around one in the morning, Alan West, Poor Alan West, he finally gets that cell great broken open.

I'm sure he just thinks, all right, I'm gonna catch up to these guys and it's gonna be all good, and I'm getting out of here. Followed that same route. It's been a couple of hours. At this point, though, he saw that these were genuinely good dudes, it seemed like because they did leave him a paddle. I don't think we mentioned they made paddles out of chair legs and the screws and nuts and bolts and a pontoon

that was all inflated for him. And he got a little snack, a little Bryce Crispy Treatrice Crispy treat, the little Bruno, little shot of Pruno for his for his courage, and then he looks over terrible timing, and there's a guard in a new position that basically could see anything that he tries to do. From that point forward, he's visually pinned down on the root. If he can't do anything, So this is around one am or something, and he figures, okay,

the guard will eventually move. Well, Alan West says, the guard never moved for until dawn. That doesn't this guy p right, doesn't he ever shake the tree? Um? And he didn't. He did not shake the tree, stayed put. And so eventually Alan West was forced to climb back down the ventilation shift, back down from the roof of the cell blocks three stories back to his cell that

he had just a few hours earlier. Finally, after months, punched a hole through and he went and laid down and just waited for the heat to come down on him. And indeed it did because at the seven am bed check, three dummy heads were discovered where three inmates real heads should have been. Uh, and the prison just went berserk. You know that feeling you get when you take a wrong turn and go like three or four miles in the wrong direction and have to go all the way

back the other way. Yeah, imagine being Alan West and having to do that. That time's infinity, That time's infinity. Yeah, you wanna take another break? I think? So? Man, all right, we'll get to the well, we won't get to the bottom of this, but we'll speculate all over the place

right after this. Kind Okay, so there are some things that we know about this from watching the movie, but the movie writers based the movie on a book, and the book author a belief basis stuff on an interview or interviews with Alan West that Alan West had with the Bureau of Prisons in the FBI. Because basically everything we know about the escape from Alcatraz came from the mouth of Allen West. Yeah, so he made a deal.

He said, listen, I'll tell you all about it, but you can't throw me in here for longer because I tried to escape prison. You gotta give me immunity for that attempted escape. And let's be honest, guys, it really wasn't much of an attempt. Can you give me a break here? Right? I had to make the sad walk of shame back to l I have a feeling that that definitely factored into their decision to give him immunity, Like, man, probably, so you really you really got a hard luck case.

So he makes a deal and says, I'll tell you everything. But again, this is just his account of it. Um. One thing that kind of jumped out is maybe it's not the most accurate account was that he was like, yeah, I was the mastermind. I thought up the whole thing from the start. And I don't know if that's quite true, because it seems like Clint Eastwood did. Yeah. Certainly the in the movie the movies, basically it should be called colin the Frank Morris story. He's the main character. Everybody

else is a side character. It really kind of downplayed a lot of the contributions by the England brothers, certainly by Alan Wait doesn't even use Alan West's name. Um, So I don't know how much of an influence is from that movie or if that movie was just based on the general idea that Frank Morris was, um the mastermind and the leader, that he was a very intelligent person and kind of a born leader from what I know. So it's just not clear whether Alan West actually came

up with this plan or not. Was he the one who sewed the raft all this time and he got left behind, or maybe he had really weak arms and this was just what he told the the Bureau of Prisons investigators. It was the reason why he never was able to chip out of the his cell. Who knows, but just so, just bear in mind from this point forward, just going to go on with the with this is gospel. But all of this is coming from Alan Westmouth. He

was the one that was left behind. I feel like in the movie he got to the point where he could not jump up by himself and reach the great Is that right? Uh? Yeah, So in the movie they help each other up and then um, he would he would have had to have done it himself, and he couldn't jump. He just kept jumping and jumping and couldn't make it. Yes, but from what I know, he made it up to the roof and was pinned down on the roof by that that guard in the watch to guard. No,

no, no no, no, you're right. In the movie it was like that. So. Uh. The plan was, and this is again from west account said, was to sail this raft or I guess paddle this raft across the bay to Angel Islands about a mile away a little over. And he said from there they were going to rest for a little bit, get their bearings, stash everything, and then swim to the mainland across what's called the Raccoon Straights to Marin County, and then once they got there they

would start doing crime again. Immediately. They could rob a store for clothsing money, and steal a car and get the heck out of there as quickly as possible before the word gets out. Ostensibly, which is a pretty great plan actually, except for the crime part. Like I would have, I don't know. I guess the idea is just get as far away as possible. But I don't know if I would have. Yeah, but you need to call are. It's not like somebody's gonna just give you one. I

can take a bart. Sure you could take the bart. I guess I think it was a pretty good Maybe they're just like one last heist to get away from here. Maybe that's what it was. Maybe because they just want I mean, I get that want the urge to get as far away from there as possible. But also what if all of a sudden cops are on you from stealing a car immediately. I guess it gets a risk. It is a big risk, and a lot of people say that. Um, they were actually helped. On the other side,

there was a guy named um oh Man. I can't remember his last name, but his his first name or his nickname was Bumpy. He was a Harlem crime lord, drug lord Um who was just a total b a um and they think that he may have had something to do with helping them escape with somebody who would have shown up and pick them up and driven them off. Other people say that one of the England's girlfriends was there, but the FBI supposedly investigate it did and said Frank

Morris didn't have anybody. He was an orphan, He didn't have anybody on the outside. He could have helped. The England's had family that definitely would have helped if they could, but they didn't have the means to actually to help them out in San Francisco. So yeah, but they were a tight family, and they were the kind of family where I think if one of them had called him been like I'm breaking out, I need you to pick

me up, they would have done it. That They're like that, that that kind of tight family bond, not like my family would be like, oh, well, I'll call you right back and then hello, FBI. How much of a reward do you have for giving up a prison Escapeee? Yes, a federal prison all that much? Hunk? Great? Do you have a pen? Can you do any better? So, yeah, that's exactly what my family would follow up with uh, they did find some evidence. So um, they did a

search for about a week and a half. Um, along with the FBI, like you were saying, in the bureau prisons and the Alcatraz people, they were all supermad, of course, especially in the movie version. And they searched Angel Island, They searched all the other islands in the bay, and they did find one of those life preservers that had teeth marks on the inflation valve. They found a wallet

wrapped in plastic that they figured was JW Anglands. They found one of those oars and they found it looked like most of one of the rafts or most of the raft But no bodies, no stolen cars, no burglaries. Um. No one had reported anything in the area unusual to to according to their plan, which was you know, steal closing money in a car. Yeah. And so the beer of prisons, like right out of the gate was like they drowned there. They were washed out to see that's it.

We'll never hear from them again. But they're dead. They didn't actually escape. Um. And that this was in nineteen sixty two. It wasn't until nineteen nine of the FBI closed the book and said, yeah, that's probably what happened. We we presumed that they were dead and their bodies

lost at sea. Um. But when they were building this case, uh, they cited the story of a guy named Seymour Webb who had jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge and virtually the same time the England's and Morris would have been in San Francisco Bay and his body was never found, despite their being witnesses who watched him jumps. Very flimsy yeah, um, yes, but at the same time, it does kind of demonstrate like, look, maybe this guy was never Yeah, he was never found.

He jumped at the same time the England's and Morris were in the water, so maybe their bodies were never found. There was a sighting of a body about five weeks later in July of nineteen sixty two UM by a group of Norwegian sailors who saw something kind of floating off and they're like, is that a body? They won't got binoculars, and they said, that's a body. It was

a body. It was um floating upside down, so all they could see was the butt basically kind of bobbing in the water, and the butt looked through their binoculars at least to have on jeans, have on denim, and they you know, that was part of the prison outfit, was they were wearing denim. And this, this is the part that kind of gets a little flims into me, is the FBI said that there were no missing persons in the area in that time frame that we're wearing jeans, right,

are you ready for this? So sitting down, who knows? And it was reported many weeks later, so you know, it was all it was kind of hearsay, I guess at that point it was. And then by the time they actually reported the sighting, it was October. So they're like, well,

that's kind of useless. But they they do point to that and say, okay, this combined with Seymour web, we think that their bodies were swept out to see Not everybody agrees with that, UM, including the Angland family, who very much maintained that their brothers survived this escape from Alcatraz.

And actually UM had a photograph that I don't know where they got it, but they they have a photograph that was supposedly taken of their brothers in Brazil in l Then it does it certainly doesn't there's actually a company you I can't remember the name of the company, but they do like um, artificial intelligence facial recognition. So they're just really leading the way to a dystopia. But they were like, hey, everybody, we want to introduce you

to our software. So we're gonna analyze this picture and um there a I said, yeah, definitely the Anglands. How cool is that? Yeah? I mean I certainly looked at it, and it could be it didn't look so unlike them that it was like no way. Um, and again I found myself being like, yeah, man, I hope these guys made it to Brazil and they're should Robin Banks there to this exactly right? I have them raising cattle in Brazil.

That's my that's my idea. Uh. In two thousand thirteen, there was a letter sent to the San Francisco Police Department, UH, supposedly from J. W. England saying, Hey, we made it, guys, but just barely. Morris died in two thousand eight. We kept in touch, great guy. Um Clarence died in two thousand eleven, and I'm still alive, but I got cancer. I need help and I'm gonna come for if you. If you promise in pinky swear until the public that you're not gonna send me to jail for more than

one year and you're gonna heal my cancer. Yeah, and apparently they analyzed the letter and like, this is inconclusive. But the FBI was like, we close this case in nineteen seventy nine, We're not about to open it up. But here's the thing. The the idea that they survived is at least possible enough that for this whole time, the U. S. Marshall's Office, who took over the case from the FBI in nineteen seventy nine, um, they have

have kept it open. Like these guys are wanted outlaws still to this day, even though they would be eight nine five. I think by now they are considered wanted fugitives in the cases open. Even though I believe the Marshall Service typically believes that they're dead, they haven't closed the case. Yeah. Here's my deal. If you do something like this and you don't leave some rock solid deathbed evidence,

then you're just selfish, You really are. You owe it to the world to to have this be a lead story and be like Frank Morris died and you know, here's the evidence. Here's that little flower from the movie. Yeah, exactly, teach teach your smartest head of cattle to stamp out a message in morse code. That's what I want you spending your dying days doing, teaching that cow. The marshals say that they don't think they survived and went on to lead lives of solitude because they're like, these guys

are career criminals. They would have done something again, they would have gotten caught again. It's a good point arguments for is that. And they don't know if they planned this that way or not. But when they went on the day they went, and during the hours they went, they actually had a few good hours of pretty calm bay currents. Um the you know, it could be so bad that they're going to pull you out to see or so bad that they take you in the wrong direction,

completely away from land. And they said that, you know, whether it was just providence or whether they planned it this way. They had cloudy night, so there wasn't much light from the moon, and they had a really calm bay. So in theory they might could have done this. They could have, but the winds were really terrible that night too. Um, I think they were gusts up to like twenty one sustained winds of like ten miles an hour. That's tough

to row. Um. Who knows. If if it was lucky, then yeah, if it was blowing them towards Angel Island and that was in their favor. It was blowing in any other direction, that would make it very very and then maybe maybe so they're like, well, that was fortunate. I didn't even have to steal a car um. The

The other problem is the water. The water temperature is like fifty degrees fahrenheit, which is very very cold, and you get very um numb and eventually uh sent into shock and an exhaustion pretty quickly after being in this water for thirty minutes or last. But people swim in that thing, and it's happened before. They had triathlons in the in that water, and people do it. So it's not to say that these guys could not have done it.

It wasn't so frigid that science would say, oh, no, you would die inside five minutes in this water exactly. I mean, especially if they were operating on the adrenaline that they surely would have had from the escape. Shimmying fifty ft down a drain pipe alone will pump you full of some pretty decent adrenaline, So who knows what

they were capable of at the time. I have a theory is that the Anglands killed Frank Morris out there on that raft, and that was the body they saw floating, and that's why they made it to Brazil and we never heard from Frank Morris. Again. I don't like your theory.

You don't think turning on them at the last minute. No, No, My theory is that that body was actually Seymour Web, that he was wearing Denham jeans under pants that got taken off of his other pants, and that he wasn't actually dead, but he met a mermaid um or merman who he fell in love with and spent the rest of his life under the sea with. Well that's lovely like that theory. But the cherry on top here is that those prisoners who wanted to help them escape because

they thought the prison would close. We're right. The prison was shut down the following March, and the Bureau prison said, you know what, we were gonna shut this thing down anyway, because Alcatraz is just too much to keep up. This this big concrete block on a rocky island is too expensive to keep up with very few guards. Uh so, who knows, but in the movie they definitely sort of portray it as is. That's the reason why, Yeah and the Warden never had a happy day again. It's right,

pretty satisfying film, Pretty satisfying film. And Chuck, I guess we said all this to say this. We have a book coming out that we would love for you to preorder. Yeah, that's right. Stuff you should know, an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting thing and guys. One of our lifelong dreams is to be on the New York Times bestseller list and they give you a T shirt. We really want to get on that list, and if that list came

out today, we wouldn't be on it. So we would love for you to step up and help our dreams come true. Sure, how's that for a plea? I think that's a great plea, A plea and a plug all together. It's a pleague. Was this in cost twenty bucks? I think so? And it's worth every penny. I can tell you because we wrote it. That's right. So, um, that's it. If you want to go order our book, you can pre order anywhere you get books, Thank you in advance.

And I think that's it for Escape from Alcatraz to right. Uh. If you want to know more about escaping from Alcatraz, there's some really great articles and books and all sorts of stuff out there in the Internet for you to dig into. So get digging. As I said, get digging. It's time for listener mail. I'm gonna call this Delaware response. We kind of poked fund of Delaware a little bit. We now, I guess it was me, but Delaware reends

Delawareans delawar in Delaware. They are lovely people, as it seems, because we've gotten quite a few emails, and they'll have good humor about their their lovely little state. Hey guys, our Delaware family had to laugh at your pirate radio podcasts. Delawareans, Oh yeah, it's right. There would be proud to be known as the Luxembourg of the United States. Most people drive through our state on nine five and less than

thirty minutes, but if you do stop by. Our state is rich in history and agriculture, and we have a few nice beaches. What you should know is the ark on the top of our state. I guess it's an arch is made by a twelve mile radius from Newcastle, uh in historic town. What many people do not know is the bottom of the arc formed a wedge betwixt Pennsylvania, Maryland,

and Delaware. The ownership of that land was in dispute between Delaware and Pennsylvania for decades, only to be resolved in Rumor has it that the disputed land was a haven for unsavory types who capitalized on the uncertain jurisdiction. Thanks for the show and informs and entertains my family and we wish you well from Delaware, the first state to ratify the constitution, That is from Doug Wazgat and family. Nice Doug, thank you. I would have led with the

first state to ratify the constitution. Thing. I bet Dave tout that a lot. That's it's a good thing to doubt. H Well, if you want to be like Doug and defend your state, whether it's Delaware or not, we want to hear from you and you can send it in an email to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's

How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio Because at the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.