How Quantum Suicide Works

a second there. If that was off the cuff, I'll accept that I did. I just made that up. It is not written down anywhere. That is great. Um, Chuck said that because we're going to be talking about quantum physics today and quarks are Um it's my understanding, Chuck that they're the the fundamental basis of matter. Yeah. They make up hadrons, which you may You may know that because we talked about the Large Hadron collider. Yeah, up until about like thirty seconds ago, I didn't know why

it was called the large hadron. Yeah. Well, there's six quarks, Josh. They are known as flavors, which is kind of cool up down, charm strange top and bottom, and apparently charms strange top and bottom. You can only um be produced with like a big collision, like the hadron collider, a large hadron collider. Huh. And there's also antiquark too, which is like the opposite. Yeah, those are the quarks that

smoke cigarettes and wear leather jackets exactly. Um chuck. Quarks exist on their particles, their matter, right, they're the building box of matter, That's what I understand. So they exist on the sub atomic level, smaller than atoms or below atom, depending on you know how you like the words sub um. And they exist in this weird world, the quantum world.

And they they bump elbows against photons, which are my favorite sub atomic I guess, particles, um, and plenty of other weird strange It's like this odd parade of physical things, right, I don't like it. There, I can understand why you don't, because it's a very disconcerting and uncomfortable world. The the very comforting ideals and principles of Newtonian physics, which are what goes up must come down. The Sun's going to rise tomorrow. Uh, depending on whether or not you're Robert Hume,

um adherent, David Hume adherent. Um. Just these things that we can depend on, We've come to depend on since Isaac Newton, you know, you know his breakthroughs. I learned a lot about myself reading this. Actually, did you learn that you get angry easily? No, It's just like the whole notion of like stepping outside reality disturbed me. Yes.

And what's even more disturbing is that this this universe is envisioned by some very very smart people, or I should say what I perceived as reality, by the way, I just want to clear that up nice. So, Chuck, we've done when on the large Hadron collider, right, this is just like this, this this huge, fancy, multibillion dollar

machine that's new that's still going right. Um. Back in the nineties, they didn't have these large Hadron colliders to like, you know, rely on to actually see and measure and detect things on the quantum world. They had to use their imaginations. Physicists did, and uh, specifically there was a physicist who used his imagination for what's called the thought experiment. It where Yeah, this guy's name is Max tag Mark.

He is awesome, He's he was at Princeton at the time. Now, I think he's a M I. T. And he came up with a thought experiment called quantum suicide. And will you allow me to explain it as follows, please do? Okay, So you are a guy and you're sitting in a room and there's a gun pointed at you at your head. I don't like where this is kill shot. And you're looking at the barrel, right, and the guns a little off. I mean, it's a normal gun, but it took it

up to this new fangled machine, right. And this machine is set so that it measures a cork. It measures the spin of a cork. Right, So let's just say, for simplicity's sake, although you've already said this isn't true, let's just say that a cork can only spin clockwise or counterclockwise. Okay, Um, this this machine is set so that every time the person sitting in front of the gun presses a button, the cork is measured. If the cork is measured with a clockwise spin, the gun's not

gonna go off. They'll just be a click, okay, Right. If when the guy presses the button, the cork is measured and it comes up with a counter clockwise spin. The gun's gonna go off, The trigger will be pulled, the bullet will actually the chamber, it will travel several feet across the room into the head of the man sitting in front of the gun, and he will die

guarantee death like it's a kill shot. Okay. What's weird is that in this quantum suicide thought experiment, Max tag Mark figured out that if this guy pressed the button every single time, he's going to hear a click, click click, click, click click, no matter how many times he presses it, no matter how long he tries this, all he'll be aware of is this clicking of the gun because he lives. Yes, he lives in every single scenario. How can that possibly be.

Let's go back to the beginning that first time the guy pressed the button. Okay, what happened in another parallel universe is the gun went off and he died, right. Okay, So with that first experiment, the the universe split into two, one where the gun went off and he died, one

where he just heard a click. Now if we follow the one where he heard the click every time he presses that button and the cork is measured, Uh, the universe splits into two, but he's only aware of the one where he just hears a click, because that's one where he's alive, and if he died, he clearly wouldn't understand that because he'd be dead. Yes, so part one of mind melt starts just started. I think that that's

the quantum suicide thought experiment. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, it was pretty mind boggling um and it's used to well, it's pretty exemplary of the kind of goofy, like you said, mind melting um ideas that are are brought up on to explain quantum physics. Right, what you have to do you have to use thought experiments because you can't use there. It's unpredictable at that level, so you can't use like

regular scientific method right. And one of the reasons why it's unpredictable is because when you look at, say a cork, if a cork only had a spin of clockwise or counter clockwise science quantum physicists have found that when you observe a quark um, one time you'll observe it and it's spinning clockwise. The next time you'll observe it's spinning counterclockwise. Or even more unsettlingly, they found that photons, these smallest

packets of light. You can look at a single photon at one point or measure it and it's a particle. You can measure it the next time the same photon and it's a wave. So this is kind of like some buddy running, walking, and swimming at the same time in different directions, right, this so that, like you said, it's it's it's uncomfortable that what they're finding on the quantum level. So what you got, Josh, is is a chaotic situation and that's sort of how it exists now.

But as you pointed out, you wrote this, I should point out, and this is a performer, this one has done really well. Right, you should tell yourself. But sometimes scientists think that the more we learned that some order will fall into place on the quantum level at some point well hopefully, yeah, hopefully here else either theory after theory,

either that or else. Yeah, it's like the the the laws of physics don't the laws of Newtonian physics just don't apply on a certain level down to they just apply on you know, the specified level um. One of the one of the fundamental tenants that that has long

been debated. Um is the idea of Heisenberg's certain new principle. Right, So, one of the one of the things, like early on in quantum physics and like the twenties, um, there are a lot of guys who were trying to explain why these weird things were showing up right, well, inconsistent at least, right, And one of the one of the early guys, one

of the early physicists was Werner Heisenberg. Yeah, Mexican, Yeah, Vanda Heisenfelg And he came up with this explanation or this I guess he'd pointed out, like a major flaw with quantum mechanics is that when we observe something, just the act of observing something, we influence its behavior. Right, Yeah, this is where I started to get a little hinky with this. I understand it in concept, like even like shining a light on something that's small will will cause

it to to change. But it gets a little more like philosophical than that. Well, yeah, like simply king at something will affect the outcome. That's a really great point, Chuck. There's the quantum um physics has a lot of philosophy and logic tied into math. It's not just straight up math. There's philosophy to it. Sort of appeals to me on that level, but it's it's doesn't make it easier to understand for me. Well, this is how Heisenberg' uncertainty principle

was explained to me once. Um, if you let's say you're blind and you have this ball, heavy ball that that has a lot of bounce to it, um that you've learned to basically see with you know how bat uses sonar, yeah, to bound bounce back the wave to

find out how far they are from something. Sure, Right, Let's say you've you've learned to kind of do the same thing but with the ball, right okay, and you know that there's a chair across the room and you want to figure out roughly how far away the chair is. So you throw your ball at the chair and you manage to hit it, and the ball takes a second and a half to come back to you. And after you know, being pretty good at this point, now you

know that the chairs about thirty feet away. That's how long it takes for something for for the ball to get back to you. In a second and a half, with about as hard as you threw it. Right, what you've just figured out is the position of the chair, or where the chair was when you threw the ball at it. What the problem is is you've just influenced the behavior of the chair. You just threw a ball against it, so you sent it careening off into space, and now you have no idea where it is. Yeah,

I get that. I get the ball moving the chair. What I don't get is looking at something. Well on on this level, consider this with photons. Remember the smallest packet of light my favorite quantum particle um. There is a nano machine which is it's a motor, right, and it's operated by shooting light at it. So this these packets of light that have no mass and no charge. This the partticles we're talking about so small that a photon, a little packet of light can actually influence them. So

we use light to see. Say, let's say just and this is this is a very basic elementary explanation, but we use light to see. If we have the light on, there's photons just bombarding something, right, So phots, if a photon can hit a particle, we know where it's position was.

When we turn the light on, but we don't know where it is now because the photons just sent it careening elsewhere, right, which delves back a little bit into the philosophical Like you walk into a dark room and you don't know where the chair is until you turn the light off. But did the light move the chair? Right? That's that's that's exactly right, right, That's that's what smart people have to say about quantum mechanics. What R I don't get it? Okay, I got it, But you do

get it because you just expect it perfectly. I was just kidding, right, Okay, all right, So that's Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and that's been something that kind of provided a conundrum for quantum physicists, and not everybody's bought into that, right, Well, and that's why they had to dream up the thought experiment to begin with. Okay, so if just observing a um a particle means we affect its behavior, well, then maybe we should use thought experiments, especially pre large hadron

collider physicists. This is their their thought process, right, So this is why tag Mark came up with the quantum suicide thought experiment. Um, But he didn't he came up with the thought experiment to prove another quantum theory called the many world's interpretation. Yeah, Hugh Everett, fellow Princetonian UH in seven. And I know he was stoked, like because forty years people were kind of like, I don't know about this many worlds thing until your guy came along.

Call him your guy. I've actually chatted with him. He's a good guy. Oh that's right. And I provided a picture like forty years, right, Yeah, nineteen fifty seven and ninety seven, exactly four years then, Um, and it supports quantum suicide. The many worlds theory is UH. For each outcome, each each each possible outcome to an action, the world copies itself. It splits into a copy of its right, and it's simultaneous, and we have absolutely no power over whatsoever. Um.

It's a process called decohesion. So Chuck, This this universe that we're in right now is going along smoothly because there's no choice or option. Right. But let's say, Um, I'm deciding whether or not to take a sip of this coffee or not. Just making that decision. I didn't just now, but the there was decohesion when I made that decision not to because in another universe, another parallel universe now exists where I did take a sip of

that coffee. Well, yeah, and the key here is that you don't know that this other universe has been created, No, because you know and you want to you want to imagine that you can look over to your right somewhere and you see yourself to drinking the coffee. But you can't. We're not we're not cognizant of that universe. It's it's

branched off. They're no longer cohesive, right, and that supports the quantum suicide thought experiment, like perfectly, Well, that's that is what um, that's that's what whoever came up with to explain why a particle, a photon could be both a wave and a particle, right right. The unsettling part of this is with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, we're in charge, we look at a quantum particle, we affect it. Right.

That was with who's Heisenberg heisenbergriniple, with um with the many world's interpretation, we're just observers, right, Yeah, parallel universe is happening all over the place. So let's say that

you you. Let's say I was the guy who decided I wanted to find out if there was such a thing as quantum immortality, that I could just sit there with the gun and actually carry out this thought experiment and and see right, and consider this, It's entirely possible that if somebody did do this, they could live forever and only they would know. You know why, because as an observer, under the many worlds interpretation, you're just along

for the ride. I sort of have to accept that, don't you If you support this theory, well, yeah, that's the basis of it. So let's say that I was the guy who sat down in front of this gun and started pressing the button right, and you're sitting there watching me, you know, maybe drinking a roop here um, waiting for that fire. Yeah, eventually it would happen because you're not doing anything. You're not making a decision. I'm making the decision. You're an observer, a bystander to my

decision of pressing the button right. Isn't that where predictability comes in? So eventually, just based on the chances of a coin toss, you're going to be witnessed to that that cork being measured, running counterclockwise and the gun going off and me dying, and after that, the universe can't possibly split anymore because you're not making the decision. I'm making the decision to press the button. While I'm dead, I can't make the decision to press the button anymore.

So then the universe has stopped splitting for you. So that's that's pretty unsettling, because we have no control whatsoever over anything. I mean, if I would chalk it up to free will, whether or not I'm I'm taking a sip of that coffee. But free will doesn't exist if the universe is splitting into two to accommodate every possible outcome, and just imagine it splitting into more than two. What if there's more than one outcome for a decision like

many worlds? Okay, right, So this is the many worlds interpretation, and that's how Quantum's Suicide basically proves it. By the by saying if somebody sat down and did this, they would become immortal. It shows that the many worlds interpretation is theoretically possible, which is what it seeks to do, right, right, And that's sort of the new kid on the block right when it comes to explaining this. Yes, not like the za Copenhagen interpretation. Yeah, well let's let's take it.

Let's take it, Chuck. Well, that's the one that's been accepted and still is in a lot of circles, but the one that had been accepted for like the last century basically. And you pointed out too that this whole thing is really only about a century old or so. Yeah. I believe it was Max Plank in nineteen hundred, which is basically founded the field of quantum fiss which is very new on a you know, on that scale. Newton came up with his stuff in the eighteenth century. So

this is the I guess, the newest field of physics. Right. So the Copenhagen interpretation, Josh, is uh Neil's Bore in the Night in the actually in nine and it says that a quantum particle doesn't exist in one or another, but it exists in all states, all at the same time, right. And the state of existing in all possible states at once is called coherent superposition or just superposition, right, right, And the total of all those is the wave function. Right.

So remember I said this is like, this is like a running, walking, and swimming all at the same time. So the state of running, walking, and swimming all at the same time is called the superposition. And then being able to run, walk, and swim as possible states that's the wave function that makes you an iron man. It does, but it makes you like the optimal iron maid. Right, you just finished the race immediately. Yeah, everyone else is finished with the running part and you're like dripping wet

with your bike on your shoulder. Nice. Uh so bor um, he he proved this, this whole shrouding yours cat thing, this is this is a little funny. And Schrodinger supposedly did design this to sort of show how silly it was, right, he he did. But at the same time he was also I mean, he was a serious quantum physicist and he was a huge rival of Um Heisenberg actually, and Heisenberg said Schrodinger's ideas were crap. Yeah, is that the

word he used? And um and I think I can't remember what Schrodinger had to say about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, but um, they didn't like each other all right, So Schrodinger's box, can we kind of describe this? Yeah? And and if you didn't get this, this is to the Copenhagen interpretation, what quantum suicide is to the many worlds interpretations. Experiment designed to theoretically prove that it's possible. Okay, people are like, can't you just talk about ticks being on

another regions? So much easier? All right, Schrodinger's cat, And this is I should point out, this is a theoretical experiment. He didn't really do this, right, he could, well, sure he could have. So what he did was he got a box that you can't see into, which is very key,

as you'll find out, he put a cat in there. Theoretically, he put some radioactive material in there, and then he put a Geiger counter in there and like a little device that would you know, if the radioactive material leaks out, it would smash this poison in there, and it would kill the cat. Right. If the Geiger encounter sensed radioactive decay, it would trigger this hammer that smashes the poison vial, killing the right. But that's just a clever way of

setting this up. It's really not important what he did being clever, well it was, it was very good. But the point is he did it within like an hour or so, so where it's still possible, like the cat didn't starve to death. The cat could either be alive or the cat could be dead. You don't know because the cat is sealed inside this box. So in theory,

the cat is both alive and dead, right. And the other part about that hour is that he determined, say, like over an hour, there was a chance that the the radioactive material would decay or wouldn't decay, so the Geiger counter of detecting it. And this is where I have a big problem with all this stuff. Yeah, well it's like you pointed out in the article too, and that's what made me think of it, the tree falling in the woods. Would you really hear it? I have

hated that since I was a little kid. I think it has to do with how your brain is wired. Because whether or not the cat is a the cat is alive or dead. Just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean it's both. Well that's to me as an English major music musician type. You know in this though, So the cats, the cat being alive or the cat being dead, right, that's its wave function. Those are the possible outcomes. And since the box is sealed off. Like

you said, it's very important. You can't see in it, you can't detect anything in it. Um the cat is the cats in a superposition of both life and death. Yeah. The point is is we what what Schrodinger was saying in this and how it how it supports the Copenhagen interpretation and is actually more like um the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle than Schrodinger would have liked to admit. Um, we

the observer force the outcome. Okay, by observing it. We open up the box and the cats either alive and we see that the cats alive, or we open up the box and the cats dead and we see the cats dead. The point of Nils Boers Copenhagen interpretation is so these things exist in their superposition, and when we observe them, we force them into basically a choice. We collapse their wave function, we collapse their superposition, and now

they're a live cat or it's a dead cat. But it's because we observed and until we observed there in this state of all states at once. It's that's just where I and like I said, it has it. It's got to have something to do with your brain because my brother was a big math guy and he used to tutor me some and he could never understand how I didn't get math, just like I don't understand how they get physics on that level. But I don't understand how someone can't sing on key because to me, you

hear the note and you just replicate it. You know what, I understand what what a brain cramp feels like? Right now? Yeah? Um, so chuck the again the great thing, the comforting thing, the thing that allows me to sleep at night about boars um. Aside from that, uh in Scott's um, the part about Boors theory that is comforting is that, again it's up to us, right things don't we We can't look at a cat and see it in a state

of life and death simultaneously. We force things to happen and at the very least things make sense to us in that in that way, right, Um. With the many worlds, again, we have nothing to do with it. It just happens on its own. Um. Decohesion happens signed like instantaneously whenever there's a decision made by a conscious being, and even

worse so times not linear. It exists in like these jumps and starts and branches, and so for every decision ever made by any conscious entity that includes rabbits, chuck right, that there's the universe is split into every possible outcome. It's like lost, Oh it is, and it's the basis of not just lost, but like a lot of other Um, there's been a lot of other works. Um, what was that one third contact you sent me? It looked like a student film or something like that. Yeah, yeah, there's

a bet, just because it's so mind boggling. Um. And the great thing is is that quantum physicists seem to have like a little bit of a sense of humor, or at the very least, they're well aware that what they're saying is just completely nuts. They're like, hey, don't kill them usinger, We're just trying to figure out what the hell is going on here, right, Um. Schrodinger called his cat experiment quite ridiculous, and Neil's board had a

great great quote, dedn'ty chuck, Yes, Josh. He said that anyone who was not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it. Right. That says it all, all right, it does say it all. And I think also what it did. Was it bought quantum physicists some time. Yeah, it's like you go figure this out, but we really go figure this out. Well, I would come and explain it to you.

You got a little clever there on the last page, which I appreciated when you said that, you know, there are all these different theories and when you're talking about quantum physics, and a lot of them contradict each other, and maybe if you believe in this kind of quantum stuff, maybe they're all right. Right Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, maybe the ones that contradict each other they're both right,

depending on what universe you're in, So it depends. If you're a many worlds interpretation devote, then yeah, that would be. That would be so quantum, Yes, super quantum that we should be wearing trawn outfit. It's right now. I saw that trailer the other day Man before Inception. Yeah, it looks really good. Yeah, although I gotta say I liked Inception, but I I it could have been better. I enjoyed it. I did too. Christopher Nolan can direct and write the

crud out of a movie. Yeah, but how much of it though? Is that no one else is making anything even remotely watchable. You're right, Wow, he came along in a good time, didn't he know he did? Um? So that's quantum suicide in a bat. I can't wait to see the listener mail on this man when the physics guys right in. Yes, it's and I don't I'm not making fun of I mean it's really enlightening. They take it really seriously. It's awesome. Yeah. Um, and don't forget Chuck.

We met somebody in New York at the knitting factory I believe who was a quantum physicist who explained to us, like how we screwed up the large had round collider. So if you're out there, I can't remember your name, remind us that is that the hadron the collider? Dude? You know those are those are their comedy troupe much to page on the clider. They have a podcast. Check it out. Um, I guess now what it's time for listener mail. Do you have something? All right, it's time

for listener mail, Josh. I'm gonna call this uh cool Kiva wedding. Okay, can I throw something in first? Please? There's something we've we've overlooked. Too many episodes have gone by in my opinion, but we need it, We need to put this out there. Remember Sean from Virginia Beach, the cubicle guy who just was like, I've listened to

everything and there's no there was no origin of Hippie Rob. Well, we put the call out for everybody to let us know where Hippi Rob first appeared in what capacity, and we got a great response. First one to write in was Emmy. Thanks for writing in, Emmy, but thanks for everybody for writing in. If you go back and listen to How Squatting Works and listen to approximately the two fifty mark, two minute fifty second mark, you will find

the origin of Hippie Rob. And if you want to show up, he also shows up about the same place in the Earthquake podcast too and elsewhere. But those are the two largest chunks of the Hippie Rob saga. He's peppered throughout. Isn't it funny that this dude is just out there, existing somewhere and has no idea. It's like in another parallel university exactly. Wow, you're welcome, josh Uh. This is from Janna in Minnesota and she says, Josh and Chuck, I'm a huge fan of the show. I

wanted to share a story with you. My husband and I recently got married June nineteenth, two thousand ten. So Mozel talked to that, you know, with the reception when people ding the glass to make newlyweds kiss. I'm not sure if it's a tradition in Georgia or not. Sort of is I think it is. We didn't do that. Yeah, we had paper cups, and one heard it. Did you really know? We did have a budget wedding, but we didn't have paper cups plastic. We pbr in a bottle.

That's very classy. Thank you. Everyone else starts to also ding their glass and then you have to stop eating and kiss. My husband and I didn't like that idea, and it either uh something about the annoying clanging sound didn't sound like fun. Plus it's really demanding. Yeah, you can't make me kiss. That's what I would have said. I would get all obstinate in my own weddingh So we decided that people had to put money in a

jar to make his kiss. Great idea. All the money placed in our jar would be donated to Kiva Fantastic through the stuff you should know Micro Lending Team the micro lending site, responsible micro lending site. Yeah, we should also spell that because we get called out because it's such a weird word. It is k I v A dot org and then slash team slash stuff. You should know, yeah, if you want to donate for our team. So she said it wasn't the biggest fundraiser of all time or anything.

They made about fifty bucks and kisses and they were happy to donate. So that's two loans right there. And I just thought it was cool that we've been included now in someone's wedding day and wedding night. Remember that other one. I guess I'm waiting on us to cause a divorce that would bring this full circle. I know we helped somebody through divorce, didn't we Can we get an an email from somebody who was getting divorced? I don't know. Maybe I think we have And thank you?

Who was that? That was Jenna from Minnesota. Thanks Janna and husband. Congratulations on your wedding. Uh. And if Chuck and I have hastened the end of your wedding or have been president at the birth of your kid or whatever, any major life event, we want to hear about it. Uh, Send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the house.

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