How No-fly Zones Work

should watch it again because you'll watch it now and go. Man, when was this made so far ahead of its time as far as like how things are in the media, like, uh, coma yeah, but when you watch network back then people said things like how ridiculous, like stuff like this could never happen. Oh, I see it's prescient, right, very much. So yeah, I'll have to watch it then. Yeah, it's a good one. That's uh is it? Like? Um, what is it? What's that Aaron Sorkin show? I don't like

antwork news Hour? Yeah that just thinks? Is that what it's called? News? News Room? Yeah? I didn't care for it other than the fact that it stars our guest starred Mr Paul Schneider, who's one of my one of my boys. So uh, sometimes people accuse that show being preachy. What do you think? I just I'm not a sworking guy, so he's a little worthy for me. I liked west Twink, I didn't watch it. You never watched West Wing, not

one episode. Guarantee you you would like it. You think it was he I hate to say this, but it was like his his masterpiece from beginning. I'm not kidding, Chuck. I'm telling you, this is somebody who didn't like Studio sixty, who doesn't like Newsroom. West Wing from beginning to end was just really great. I'll try it, but I swear the way that guy writes, I'm always just like nobody talks.

I'm with you, I'm totally with you. But this cast of characters, the characters that he wrote, the actors, they pulled it off. I've never seen a shot Paul Schneider is not on it. I'm coming to your house this afternoon and we're gonna watch them. Okay, okay, uh So I guess that's the segue for no flies on. Not a bad setup because this is political and presidential. I have something, actually, I have a bit of an intro. Okay, well, let's let's hear it. You've heard of the Wright brothers

Dayton's Pride, Orville and Wilbur Wright. Oh yeah, can joined twins? Yes, no, they weren't. But they did fly. They did build the first airplane that flew, and they flew it out at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. And after they had that flight, actually I think before they undertook that flight, while they were still in the development stage. Uh, they went to the United States government and said, hey, War Department, you

want in on this action. Not once, not twice, but thrice did the War Department turn the right brothers down, say what good our planes in the warfare? Exactly? Luckily there was a very smart person heading the Post Office Department who said, Okay, maybe you shouldn't drop bricks out of airplane down to people's heads, but we could use this to deliver the mail. Martin ben Ostrin, right, to heck with the auto gyro, We're gonna start using this

Wright Brothers plane to deliver mail. And for three years the only aircraft that were in service under the United States government was for delivering mail, and then a postal carrier and as a pilot accidentally dropped a mail bomb and they went, wow, that's a good idea, works very well. Yeah, it didn't take very long for the War Department and

be like, oh, okay, maybe we should use this. And then by nineteen fourteen the aviation section of the Signal Corps was set up and all of a sudden, planes were militarized. Within just years of their invention, they were being used to murder people. Yeah, and this article points out in seven Spanish Fastest dropped a bunch of bombs on the town of Guernica. A hundred thousand pounds of

explosives killed sixteen hundred people. And yeah, well, not only was it the explosive, people were running on a town and they were gunning them down civilis. Yeah, so that's what fascists do. As outrageous and horrible as that is, it was definitely the beginning of what would be a long romance in warfare with the plane. Yeah, you had the red baron Eddie Rick and Backer. Uh. They're a

very long, bloody history associated with planes and war. Um, When the fascists in Spain used planes to take out a lot of civilians, the world was, you know, appropriately disgusted. It wasn't a whole lot that could be done, And it actually wasn't until the very early nineteen nineties that people figured out a way to use planes to thwart planes from being used against civilian populations by their own government. Yeah. I thought no fly zones had been around long before that,

so this was very eye opening. I had no idea that it was in the nineteen nineties when they first did this. Right, no fly zones are new. They've only been used three times. Yeah, I didn't know. Like it just seems like there's it's something that they just commonly do, but it's kind of a big deal to issue and

no flies one. And the reason why is because what you're doing is intervening in a sovereign nation, undermining the power of the ruler of that nation, choosing sides in a way you're saying, at the very least, I'm not gonna let you just slaughter these civilians. I'm not going to cast my lot one way or the other, really, but I'm going to protect these civilians. And uh, it takes a United Nations mandate to to even get started, that's right. So, um, you want to talk about the

first one, yes. Uh, let's harken back to the spring of nine. I'm in college drinking a lot of beer. That's where I first discovered beer. I was drinking a lot of beer too, and I wasn't in college. Well, I'm just kidding. I was. Um So I remember sitting around and watching like this stuff on CNN for the first time, like being interested in politics really for the first time. Oh yeah, yeah, that's kind of when I got into stuff like that. Well, that was the first

war that was really televised. I mean, Vietnam was, but this was the one that This is the first one that had like twenty four hour coverage. Was the was the first goal four and it was spectacular to watch. Uh, it was pretty enthralling, especially when you're, you know, twenty years old and you're sitting around with your friends drinking beer. Yeah,

look at that's good. Safe in Athens, Georgia. Um. So, what happened There was a guy named Saddam Hussein he um was not doing very nice things to the people in Kuwait. Well, we'll put and the Curtish minority in northern Iraq was encouraged by American radio broadcast to two revolt like take a stand, and so they did, and Sadam Hussein Um sent gunships and with napalm and chemical

weapons and helicopters, because that's that's what you do. That's what he does when you have a civilian population that's unhappy with your rule. Yeah, and so they fled, basically hun the thousands of them, uh Curtish civilians fled Um and sort of got wedged there at the Turkish border because the turch were like, yeah, we feel for you, but stay there, so don't cross over here. They didn't

have food and water. And H W. Bush President George H. W. Bush and allies in Europe said, you know what, oh boy, I don't know what to do here because we kind of encourage these people to do this and now they're stuck in a between a rock and a hard place. And but we really don't think we should invade and remove Sadam Hussein like with all of our Mike, yeah, let's get another ten twelve years exactly. Or we could go to the U N in NTE and say, hey,

how about passing a resolution against this guy? Right, they did, but they did they said, Okay, we're gonna um deliver humanitarian aid to these Kurds who are trapped along the Turkish border, and Hussain, if you do anything to interfere, we're going to bomb you. We're going to take on your guys that you send an inner fear at the very least, right. Um. And not only that, we're establishing a safe zone for these people. It's above the thirty

six parallel. And uh, if you send any planes over there, we're gonna take them on. So this is what we're going to call a no fly zone. It was the first one, and Saddam Hussein went, no fly zone. I've never heard of such a thing. That's stupid, And the UN said that's because this brand new jerk, right, And he's like, oh, I'm the first one. He went first. First, he's so um, they did this, and then second no

fly zone. Um. South of the thirty second parallel was established to protect the Shiite Muslims, who also rose up under the encouragement of the United States. If you're interested in this kind of thing, check out three Kings. It was a lot to do about that. It was after the uprisings had started, and also after the time the United States didn't support them. Remember the one scene where when the guy made Markey Mark drink the oil. That was hardcore man, a little over the ham fisted of

David O. Russey. Yeah, you don't like that guy that you get problems with him. I like Three Kings a Lot. Okay, what else has he done? The next thing Silver li Ex Playbook he didn't like. I thought it was okay. Yeah, see, you don't love him, but I like Three Kings a Lot. I thought that was a good movie. Yeah, me too. Uh So no fly zone is going on. Sidom Hussein violates said no fly zone. He's like, yeah, well, what's

gonna happen? Let me send some jets up there. And we responded by or the coalition I should say, responded by shooting down these aircraft or destroying just you know, military targets on the ground. Because that's, as we found out, one of the parts of a no fly zone to be effective is to also bomb like radar equipment stuff on the ground that can get jets up in the

air and guide them disabled. Their force can also find your jets, So you want to disable their force, like you said, but you also want to protect your own force. The thing was this is very new. Uh The U N was a little squeamish at the idea of undermining again a sab and ruler, a jerk, everyone agreed, but still a sovereign ruler and kind of one of the stabilizing forces of the Middle East, whether the US liked

it or not. Um So they just kind of said, yeah, protect these people, but just really you got to take it all in a case by case basis. Can't be the least bit aggressive. You have to be completely reactive. And even then maybe we should just kind of chase him out of the note flies him rather than shoot him down over time after sortie after sortie after shorty.

They started just by attrition, wearing down Hussain's defenses and his um, his air force, just because he kept sting a man and we kept shooting him down until two thousand three when we, you know, went in in full force and took out something using right, the northern part and the southern part of Iraq was off limits to Sadam Hussein for twelve years his own country. There is a wide swath in the middle that he could move

around him, but anything else he wasn't allowed. Okay, so those are the that's the first use of the not fly zone ever. Uh. In the early nineteen nineties, when Yugoslavia broke up, UM, NATO forces said, all right, how about another no fly zone. We're gonna authorize this one. It's nine over the breakaway region of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was called Operation Denied Flight, which is terrible little

on the nose. I just want to talk about on the David R. Russell named said mission and it was gonna block Bosnian Serbs who controlled all the military aircraft in that region, right, and who were using it against all of their neighbors that they were um going to war against, specifically the um Muslims, Yeah, Serbian Muslims, right, yeah, in a big way. Yeah. Um. So the I guess NATO undertook that no fly zone was number two. Yeah, um,

and uh that was a little more aggressive. I believe they went after they'd learned from you know, I guess about eight years of the Iraqi no fly zone that you really and I have to go after like military installations and anything that can be used to violate the no fly zone, and maybe even go a little step further as punishment, like not only is is, are we gonna shoot down your plane, We're gonna maybe blow up your base and pants you right in front of everyone. Right.

So that was the second no fly zone. The third was even more aggressive, Yeah, against Kadafi just a couple of years ago, in two thousand eleven, that's right, and it lasted about six months, I believe. Yeah, it was extremely effective. Yeah. Well that's because they authorized, um quote, all necessary measures to protect the Libyan civilians. And that was uh, you know, that meant a lot of a lot of bombs being dropped, a lot of cruise missiles taking out bases on land. And this one was named

by Angle. It was called Operation Odyssey Dawn. It was the result of U N Security Council Resolution nine three, which is confusing because it was carried out in two thousand eleven, that's right. But basically it said, you guys, we think Kadafi is totally not so um and he's gonna kill a lot of his own people. Go in

there and declare all of Libya no fly zone. And NATO said, okay, let's do it, right, So US and British lad NATO coalition kind of took the reins and turned this six hundred and eighty thousand square mile country, which is about one point seven million square kilometers UH into a no fly zone. All of Libya was a no fly zone, all right. So since this is a new thing, it's there is no as this article says playbook, there's not like a exact way that these go into effect.

It sort of depends on what you're dealing with, what countries you're dealing with. But the first thing that you have to do, according to Chapter seven, Article forty two of the UN Charter, is UH get the fifteen member UN Security Council on board, right, which sounds easy, but it's not necessarily because you have five permanent members the UK, France,

the US, China and Russia. And China Russia loved to veto anything that the US, the UK, and UM, France are all about UM, which is good, it's called a balance of power. But UM specifically with Libya, France, or Russia and China, they were against it, but they were persuaded to abstain from the vote because all it takes is one one permanent member nation on the Security Council of veto and it's done. Yeah. I wonder what that persuasion entailed. I don't know. You know, looking the other

way on human rights violations. Maybe I have no idea, but I'm sure it wasn't just as easy as hey, you might sitting this one out. Sure, no problem, right, I'm drunk anyway. So, UM, the the UN resolution for the Libyan uh no fly zone. UM, it's a pretty good example of how this kind of thing can work. So no flights in Libyan airspace bands all flying unless it's a humanitarian mission carrying food or water or getting out um for nationals who are in like bad places. Yeah,

you're allowed to do that. Other than that, no fly, no fly, and um, it's not you don't just shoot down any plane on site when you're patrolling the no fly zone. If a if a plane is flying in Libyan airspace, you want to first figure out if it was there accidentally or if it's hostile. And if it's hostile, you go back to the ground and say, hey, man, can I shoot this thing down? Yeah? Well, first you go figure out who's who's doing the shooting. You know,

you gotta set it all up. Who's gonna be enforcing all this I was just jumping ahead of Okay, you gotta figure out who's who's in charge of the operation basically in the live in the case of Libya, it was NATO. And um, then you established the rules of engagement, which is partially has to do with hey, do we shoot first and ask questions later? Do we check passports? How's this gonna work? Right? And and like you said, Olivia,

it was pretty aggressive. Um. The first thing that happened on day one was the US and I believe the UK sailed warships off the coast Olibya and started shooting missiles into Libya's interior, knocking out military installations, radar installations, as much of the Libyan military is or at least air force as could be destroyed. Hundred twelve Tomahawk cruise missiles boom, Yeah, each one precisely shot. That's right. And uh, I love the article says the goal is to shape

the battle space in quotes. Yeah, that's the euphemism. Huh yeah, big time. So um, after this, they send in the drone surveillance aircraft to check things out. You see what's going on? And did you get the impression the US is kind of showing off a little bit like we well, we've got some missiles we can use. And then after we're we'll send in our unmanned drones and make sure everything's bombed. And then after that we're going to send in radar jamming equipment just in case you have anything

left on the ground, we'll take care of that too. Yeah, that was the first like two days. Yeah, and getafis his air force was you know, they call them vintage jets in this uh in this article, and that's in that case, vintage is not a good thing. You know, it's from the nineteen sixties. It's old gear. Basically, it's vintage, not retro um. So it's it's still it was effective. It worked even beyond the fact that, um, the jets were vintage and we crippled the his radar system, his

air force, military installations. Um, there was still a lot of shoulder launched rockets in Libya and estimated six hundred. I believe that like during this time, Kadafi was handing out to people who were on his side. Yeah, and Sadam Hussein famously offered a bounty on any aircraft shotdown of like fourteen grand which I thought, why not fifteen? You know, Yeah, that was a weird number. I wonder if that if that makes like a significant round number in Iraqi money. You know, it's a lot of yes,

thank you. You shouldn't invest in those, by the way, that's a big scam invest in denari. You have you heard of people doing that? No, it's a thing where people buy up Iraqi denari and thinking you're like, they're gonna hit it big one day. You shouldn't do that. Why, Yeah, it's just you do a little research and it's it's sort of one of those scams, is it. Yeah, So like if you bought denari from a legitimate currency broker, it's still not a good investment. Huh. I know someone

who did. Oh no, is it possible it's going to come back in ten years? A doubt it. Are they going to go euro? I don't know. Huh. But yeah, that's just a sidebar. Okay, that was a nice one. Save your money, folks. So we were talking about the possibility that a NATO jet or any jet patrolling a no fly zone could get shot down by some dude on the ground. Yeah it hasn't happened, No, but it couldn't have to be one lucky shot. It raises one

of the concerns. Uh, actually it has happened. It hasn't happened from somebody on the ground, but it raises a concern, a risk that, um, we're sending in people again into a sovereign nation that maybe he has to deal with his own problems, and um, we're putting our people in danger for that. Most people, I think myself included side on the idea of going in and protecting civilians from certain slaughter. Um, but I do agree that there is

a risk as well in um. Scott McGrady remember him, Yeah, Yeah, during the Balkan War. Uh, during that no fly zone he was shot down I guess by a Serbian plane. Uh it was a surface to air missile. But okay, so somebody has shot down somebody from the ground. Well I don't know if it was a person. Okay, Well he was shot down patrolling a no fly zone and h he was in very big trouble for a little while. Had he not been quite the survivalist, who knows what

would have happened. Because the Serbs were hot on his trail and he spent six days evading them. Yeah, he did a really good job and hero. Yeah, he ate ants and lived on collected rainwater and avoided the bad guys and eventually got through uh A radio signal and Gene Hackman picked up Gene Haman was like, we're going to get you out of there. Yeah, uncommon Valor. Man. That was the Gene Hackman was in the Ohen Wilson movie too, Was he really? I'm pretty sure he was

the one that was in charge of saving him. Oh man, well he's he's always going in and save him an uncommon Valor. It was his son who was a Yeah, Vietnam Pio w Right. That's good, Randall tex Cob Yeah, what was his name in it? I don't remember that. That movie came out at a great time for me though. It was the perfect age. He wore like a live grenade around his remember, yeah, that's the second time we talked about Uncommon Valor and like two months When was

the other one? I remember? I don't remember. I remember talking about it and probably when what happens if the earth stops spinning? Yeah? Probably so. Um, so you got anything else? I guess. We had the opportunity to to really invade Libya, and in President Obama said, you know what, let's not do that. Um, let's not do the regime change game. Well, a lot of people are like, we shouldn't be there in the first place. A lot of

other people are like, this is a half measure. If you're gonna go do that and just wipe out somebody's military, you might as well do a ground invasion and take over and top all the regime. Like you said. Obama was like, no, let's give it a shot. And he was proven right in Libya at least, because even if you take out their air defenses and their air offenses, I guess they still have way better weaponry and stuff on the ground than these uprising forces do. And it

worked in Libya. It didn't necessarily work in the Balkans. A lot of people point to Um the slaughter at um Sribrenica. Yeah, seven thousand Muslim U boys and men were killed yea by the Bosnians being Yeah, who are being tried for war crimes because of it. But the no FLI zone didn't do anything to prison prevent it. That's right, So I mean, is it effective? It can be. I say that we don't have a large enough body

of work to study from here. We need to get some more going, get some more enoughly sounds Remember how creepy it was after eleven when all the planes were shut down. Remember that. Oh yeah, it's just so odd. You don't realize how used to the sounds and the Kim trails and trail We did an episode on that Calm trails or did kim trails? We did? We did a con trails Kim Trails. Yeah, yeah, you know what

I mean. Okay, I guess that's about it, right. If you want to learn more about no fly zones, you can type no fly zone into the search bart how stuff works dot com. Uh. And before we get the listener mail, let's do a word from our sponsor. All right, listener mail time. Yeah, okay, Josh, I'm gonna call this um. She kid gets his way, which I try not to do. But this is everybody loves it when pushy kids get there.

This is a shout out for a teacher. This is Jack and Jack and I had been emailing each other and he says, by the way, Chuck, I think I told you in the past about my Civics teacher that listens to the show. This week, we have a special project in this class is to make a podcast about one of the Supreme Court cases we've been studying for some hints. We listened to tidbits of your show, and my teacher and I just grinned from ear to ear at each other like a really funny inside joke because

they're like the only two in the class of listen. Um. I plan for my pseudonym to be either Chuck or even Chuckers, if he would allow, I give me a permission, sir uh. He says he sees himself as a younger version of me, which is writing, although the actual content in the show is more like this American life because we are required to have Collins Son have Collins Uh? Do they? I don't know. I don't think. I will always think to myself that I'm sitting there in your

little studio. If you can give my spectacular teacher, Mr Kristof a shout out, that would be mind boggling, stupendously incredible. But I understand if you can't, Mr Kristof. Yep, Mr Kristoph civics teacher. And I said, sure, Jack, I'll do that. And then he emailed again from Washington, d C. And said, I hate to seem demanding, Chuck, but if you could also mention Mrs Kristof because I have her for math and I don't want to make her feel left out. So if it's too late, I get it. I can't complain.

This might be the best day of my life after all. Have a nice long weekend. And that is Jack outside Washington, d C. And Mr and Mrs Kristof, good job listening to the show, and we thank you for using it in your classroom. Yes, thank you to the Kristof's. Mr. And Mrs Kristof's. Thank you for shaping your minds. Do you conceive that shout out? Uh? And way to go, Jack? You're cool, dude. Um, if you have a shout out you want us to give. Chuck gives in on those

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