How Drug Courts Work

Tuesday October, we are coming to Salt Lake City for an evening with stuff you should know at the Grand Theater and we are super excited. I'll tell you what. You guys really came through on the emails and social meds and let us know that we would see some love if we came to Salt Lake City, a city we've talked about often in the past. So we are a coming Tuesday, October twenty three, and we decided, hey, we're gonna be out there, we might as well add

another city that we've never been to. So it is your lucky day, Phoenix eras Zona and dare I say, Tucson and in the Greater Phoenix area drive over to Phoenix and come see us on Wednesday October at the Van Buren. And this is also an evening with Stuff you Should Know. I don't even know what that means, but it sounds a little more regal than normal. So come see us October Salt Lake City and Phoenix. Uh, you know what, I don't even know if tickets are

on sale. I believe by the time this announcement goes up, tickets will be on sale, and you can go to the Van Buren website or to the Grand Theater website to get your ticket links. I will try and have them up very soon on s y s K live dot com, but I don't know if I'll get to that today, but look forward soon and we can't wait to see you, guys. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant,

and we've got guest producer Tristan with us today. Ye who's filling in for Jerry who may or may not exist. Tristan exists. Look at him. He shaved his mustache. I know, and Chuck, he shaved his mustache. Within a day of me telling him how cool it was next time I saw him, no mustache. Interesting, Yeah, that's what I thought too. What's that all about, Tristan? That's cool, that's probably the appropriate response to that one. Yeah, but he's I noticed. You can't even look at in the eye right now.

So no, luckily we're sitting beside one another, not facing one another. Else to be really weird for the next two hours. Pulls a knife. You'll know that because I just run from the room. Okay, that'll be the signal. All right, sounds good. So let's say that Tristan pulled the knife on me and I had nothing to do with the fact that I complimented slash ruined his mustache. Um, let's say that it was because he was a drug addled lunatic. Okay, like he was literally attracted to the

moon and he was on drugs and he pulled a knife. Um, had I got my phone out in time and called nine one one and the cops had shown up, you know, immediately and arrested him. Tristan could have been up for what's known as chuck a drug court. Yeah and wait, wait, that was now my best in trove. No, that was good of the ten years, but it was in the top sadly, Okay, so that means in the like about I can't even do math right now? So what's wrong with your brain? I went to a show last night,

so I'm I'm I didn't even drink much. I'm just tired. Who'd you go see? Calexico? Oh? Really? Boys? Yeah? What else? Are they? An? Iron and Wine? Well they did a they did a record with with them, That's what it was. But they're not in them, you know what I mean. So they did it. They did a joint jam together, they did, and I'm a little I'm just tired as a result. Okay, well let me set it up again, Chuck, I don't know. Okay. Well, here's the thing is, did

you uh did you really know about drug courts? I mean it was something that I was aware of. I don't sit and think about different types of courts much, um, and I've never been through drug court, but I I guess I knew it was there. I didn't know this much about it, and I certainly, I gotta say I've never run across a more glowing review of drug courts among anything in the media, and the media really loves drug courts, but apparently how stuff works heart drug courts

like crazy. Yeah, I did not specifically know what it was. I did a brief little skim when I picked up the article, but I thought when I saw drug courts, I was very naive and I was like, oh that, you know, the are just like courts set up just to run people into jail as fast as possible. Oh I see, I see, you know, like just let's turn and burn like a hundred cases a day and just throw people in the slammer. But it turns out it is the exact opposite of that. Yeah, it is, and

turning burn this is like top gun. All of a sudden, I am dangerous. So no, it's it's meant to be the exact opposite and ideally, and it sounds like there are some actually really really good, ideal drug courts out there. It is it's meant to do the opposite. It's meant to say, hey, man, you're a criminal. Let's not kid ourselves here, but you're a criminal really because you're addicted to drugs. You're addict first in a criminal second, right,

and then maybe a family member, fourth or fifth. But you kind of put that on the back burner during your drug career. Right, So, so you you're on drugs and you're you're committing crimes and even more to the point, and this is how it kind of got its towards you, in which we'll get to in a second. I've seen you before. I recognize your face. That's how bad this situation is. You're clogging up the court system. I I've got like a serial killer behind you who's like getting

very impatient. Frankly, we need to move this along, save some money. Let's figure out if there's another way, um that we can we can do this that actually helps you, but that also helps society and saves costs, and that came in the form of drug courts. Yeah, so should we should we get in our our low rider, our low rider way back machine and and drive back to the the late eighties and Dade County, Florida. So first

I bought us matching pastel suits. I appreciate that to where put it on, it's on, it's puffy, it looks like what's that grepe paper? Crepe paper? Yeah, or fish skin? All right, So we're in Miami Dade County. Um, we're in our are metallic purple Lowrider. We're driving around and

there's a lot of people on crack. It's hid the crack epidemic, right, and people are being run through, Like you said, these courts so often, and these jails are so clogged because these drug addicts are being run through there. Sometimes they are dealing drugs, maybe sometimes they're committing crimes, but sometimes they're just people who had drugs on them

and are very sadly addicted to crack cocaine. To the point like where what you said, which is these these judges are saying, man, you've been in here five times in the last six months, and this is no good. There's got to be a better way, right, So some judges actually got together and they said, let's let's make a better way. And they I don't know exactly how they did this. They couldn't find the um full story on it, like whose singular idea it was, or how

they actually went about establishing it. I guess they they the municipal court system gives these judges a tremendous amount of leeway and setting up courts on their own apparently. But in Miami Dade County, the judges got together and said, we're gonna set up what what will be the nation's first drug court. Actually I found out who the very first person it was, judge drug. Oh that's what it was named for. What a coincidence? Don't that weird? Judge

crack cocaine. But there was there's an interesting story in our our own article that we should probably highlight about this attorney, David Scott Marcus, that I thought was pretty interesting, and he was in He was an attorney on drugs. He was arrested drug possession, leaving the scene him an accident. His defense attorney. So, so, wait, you just painted a picture that I think screams Porsche. Yeah, yeah, I probably had, which I thought was kind of like the coolest car.

Time is it the one? It looked kind of like a Lotus submarine bond low to submarine. It had like the pointiest end, pointiest front. M it's the one from Risky Business. Not familiar. I think that's all right, and if I'm wrong, so be it. Porsche. I'm not going to google that stuff right now. But he was a defense attorney and a successful one too, and he was

assigned to drug court. His attorney said, can we can we put this guy in drug court and his his quote in this article says, it wasn't an arrest, it was a rescue and he was in his mid thirties.

Um went up in front of Judge Stanley Goldstein drug and apparently like this is this is kind of a great success story of a drug court situation because this guy turned his life around, committed to this program, went to the twelve step meetings, and is now a successful attorney again trying to steer his clients to drug courts

because it works so well for him. Right, And that's actually one of the ways you can be steered toward a drug court is your attorney, your defense attorney can go to the judge it when when you're busted and say this person is a really great candidate for for drug court. Judge can say I agree, let's do this and kick you over the drug court. Yeah. So this

one in Miami was the first one. It was sort of the pilot program, I guess, and uh, by most measures and well we'll talk, We'll save the poop pooing until the very end. How about that? That sounds okay? Um, But it was looked at as a success and then all around the country, they started emulating this program to the tune of today. There says in our article there's more than three thousand of these set up in the United States. Yeah, it seems to be hovering just over

three thousand. I think I saw three thousand, fifty seven, three thousand seventy six, so it seems to have topped out at about three thousands. Although there is a two thousand seventeen memo or I guess advisory from the Commission on Combating Drug Addiction and the Opioid Crisis, and it recommended this is ye two seventeen, late late two seventeen, that every district in the US established a drug court. So it's possible there will be more in the future.

I don't know how many districts are. Maybe there's three thousand eighty two. Maybe we're almost there. But they're like, come on, you guys, just just let's make it a h Yeah. So, like you were saying, it can come from the defense attorney, but it can also be a prosecutor. It can be the cop who arrested you. Um. The way I look at this is it seems like everyone sort of it's like a team effort. It's it's set

up in a way so it's not adversarial. It's not like the prosecutor and the defense attorney are fighting each other in this case, and the judge, like everyone's sort of kind of gets on the same side to say, hey, le's see if we can straighten this person out. Right. Not only is it not ever cereal and a drug court, the prosecutor and the defense attorney are required to hold

hands throughout the entire hearing. I know, and Bobby mcferron, right besides, as the bailiff, instead of swearing on the Bible, you just think, don't worry, be happy. That's the same time, and then everybody goes they clap and go drug court. At the end of every session, we should probably yes, yeah, let's take a break. That's why Skoddy should know. Should I go large? I was sk okay. So Bobby mcfarren has just left the room. Oh and court is starting, Yes,

court is started. You know who would have been a great drug court judge is Harry Stone r I p yeah, and that's it just recently passed. He was not an old man, no, and by all accounts a really good guy. When all the oh yeah people started pouring out their stories. He was It seems like he was a really good dude. He did this some really heartfelt, like very moving one man show um right after Hurricane Katrina that you can as probably on YouTube, if not on like Netflix or

something like that. Um. That was about, you know, all the horrible things that happened from the flooding and just the humanitarian crisis that arose. It was pretty great. Wow. And if you don't know who he is, people, then we are referencing the great, great show Night Work from the eighties. I would say, one great wow, build him up,

and he knocked them down. No. I thought he was accused a great individual, but the show itself was one great, not great great, so Harry the great great Harry ins and was limited by his the bad writing to one great there you go. But but he his character specifically from this this explanation of drug courts and what what is expected of drug court judges, it is exactly what he did. Like he was compassionate towards the person. He wanted to know what their backstory was. He would recognize

them by sight, sometimes by name. Every once a while he would lighten the move with the magic trick. Um. Maybe take away the magic trick part. But all of those things are boxes that a drug court judge is supposed to check. It is nothing like what normal court is. Like, yeah, correct, which is why it's let's sitcom right, it's it's more like night court than regular court drug court is. That's right.

So all right, how it's how it works is very dependent on what court it is, because as everyone knows it's it's works on the state level, and then like the city or county or municipality level as far as how they want to structure their own scene. Sometimes it's people that only people that have didn't have like a violent crime um committed in the course of their drug use. I saw that that was a federal funding requirement that really you couldn't also be up on violent crime charges.

So like so like if you shot somebody in the kneecap while you're robbing them for drug money, you're probably not going to get kicked at drug court. Well, and sometimes if you have dealt drugs, you're not allowed in the drug court. That's another one. To a lot of them tend to pick first time offenders um, people who

are new to the court system. If you are caught on like possession charges or something like that, and there's a drug court in the county that you're in or the municipality that you're in, there's probably a hundred and ten percent chance they will recommend drug court for you. Right. And then sometimes they will have the defendant sign a contract saying, you know, I'm on board with this. I'm actually signing my name on this document. Um. Sometimes they'll

even uh, they'll even have to plead guilty. Right. So there's two ways that it can go. One is that they say we have you. You are you've been indicted and charged with possession of crack cocaine right right, And um, if if you go to regular court, you will probably get sentenced. Here's what your jail time might be. Um, but we are offering for you to go to drug court instead. And what we're gonna do is we're gonna defer these charges against you pending your graduation from this

drug court program. We'll get more into the program in a second. But it's hanging out there as as a potential, Like, but if you don't, then this is what's waiting for you. Right. It's not like everybody's just gonna forget about it. After you go to drug court, right, Like, this is this is one of the things, right, So coercion is the

key to drug court, right. Um. The other way that they can do it is they can say you have to plead guilty to this charge, and if you go to drug court and graduate successfully, you will the judge will either dismiss your sentence or they might even expunge the them the conviction from your from your permanent record. Yes, I was trying to remember my violent femmes. Uh. And here's the other thing that's that's different than regular court

is this is all done very fast. Um. It's not like you're hung up for weeks and months trying to figure this out. Because their whole deal is as you you walk in there addicted to drugs, and they want to get you treatment as soon as possible, right, so in patient or outpatient. So so like within days of an arrest, you could be in treatment. Yes, which is again if you go to normal jail, that is not what happens. Most jails don't offer treatment. Um, treatment programs.

Some do, but a lot of them don't. So if you go to jail, your treatment is either going cold Turkey or just doing a bunch of drugs in jail. Right. This is this is meant to say, Okay, we're going to actually keep you out of jail. You're not going to jail right now, but you're going into this treatment program. And like you said, it could be impatient or outpatient. It can be public funded treatment, or it could be a private like treatment hospital like a rehab center. Right.

And all of this stuff is is hammered out on a case by case basis. So you are recommended by either the your your attorney or a judge that sees you in the criminal court might say you do better in drug court. The arresting officer apparently can can recommend drug court, and then they look at you as an individual and they look at your individual case and then they decide what is the best way to handle your case.

And there is definitely like a structure in a program that every drug court is going to have have, but there's a lot of room from what I understand, there's a lot of room and a lot of leeway for them to almost personally tailor your drug cord experience to make it as successful as possible. And this is the ideal version. Again, I know that we're holding off on poo pooing as you can see chuck on biting clear

through my lower lip right now. But um, this is the ideal version and it it it does exist in some places. Yes, it's tailor made. It's like a pillow menu at a nice hotel. Actually it's nothing like that. But what you are going to get, just like at a nice hotel, is drug tested a lot. Um you will be I mean maybe every other day for the first while, you might be drug tested. Yeah. I think that one attorney who was busted and became like a drug court advocate. Um, he was drug tested like five

days a week. Yeah. And again this is tailored to you, so it's Uh. One of the things our article points out is that what happens is is your judge gets to know you. Um, and that's kind of the whole point is they need to know who you are so a they can suss out whether or not you're trying to game the system. And they get from what it sounds like, they get really good at that kind of reading.

These people who are like, no, man, I can tell this guy is he's just trying to go through drug courts so we can go out and do drugs again, um or this person seems like they really want to turn their life around, right, Uh, So they will get to know these folks and assess like I think they need maybe to be tested once a week, and the more you test clean, the less you get tested, and the more um sort of leeway you have and freedom you have as long as you're you know, working those

steps and completing your program. Right. Okay, So then, like I said, though, the coercion thing is the key to drug cord, right. The whole point of drug cord is that you can you can go through a program out of court, right, and it wouldn't be like like judicially mandated or anything like that. But the what the drug court advocates are saying is that doesn't work nearly as well as the idea that if you don't complete this program, you're going to jail. And some drug courts take it

even further and say, okay, man, here's your choice. You can stick with the regular charges, go to normal criminal court for this you will probably almost certainly do some jail time, or you can come try drug court. If you succeeded drug court, you won't go to jail. We may even dismiss the case and make it like this,

this conviction never even happened. If you fail, not only are you going to jail, you're going to do more jail time then if you hadn't come into drug court at all and just stayed in the regular criminal system.

So the coercion there is very strong. And the reason that it's there, according to drug court advocates, is because that is what helps ensure the success of these treatment programs and gets people to actually complete them and become unaddicted to drugs at the end of it, or at least started on a path that they can keep up with for the rest of their lives. Yeah, and this I'm like when I said it's a quick program, the

program isn't quick. They get you going quickly, but this doesn't happen over the course of a few months, like it seems like. The minimum is is about a year, and it can be as long as two years sometimes to graduate and prove that you are are drug free and committed to being drug free. Right, so you'll have like the court all up in your stuff like during that two years. Right. Some of them are even shorter, but they're almost men is like an emergency case, like, um,

you know, somebody's having a mental health crisis. I don't know if it's federal. I know some states have it. At least if it's not a federal law that you can you can be locked up for for I think seventy two hours against your will if a court says this person needs to be emergence, they need emergency mental health treatment. There are some kind of sub categories of drug courts that have been set up to adjust the

opioid crisis. That will will be like a ninety day like emergency crash program that's basically meant to keep you out of jail but also keep you alive and like really get your your treatment going. But um, that's like an additional part to the drug court program because from what I saw, it seems like twelve to twenty four months is pretty normal. Yeah, And and who are these people? Who are these prosecutors and defense attorneys and judges, And in most cases it seems like they are people that

have specifically requested drug court. Um, it doesn't seem like a lot of people are begrudgingly assigned drug court. They feel compelled to do so. Maybe a mid career switch or maybe you know that's what they wanted to do to begin with. Um, you know, they feel like to have a calling to try to help people and not necessarily just be like I'm gonna be the prosecutor that like throws a book at everybody, the judge that just

wants to put everybody behind bars. Uh. They definitely have a more compassionate side than you're probably used to in a courtroom. Um. Although I will say most courts, I mean I've only been like traffic court and stuff, but they have all sorts of you know, traffic court is they have a range of people in there, and most of the judges I've I've seen in my life have been kind of the it's sort of harsh with a

heart of gold. Yeah. I've never seen one in person that was just like it seemed like a real jerk that was just intent on running people through the system. You know, you make a good point. I think every every scientific study that involves human subjects should be required to get their their population sample from traffic court. There's no better like perfect cross section of America then like a Tuesday morning in traffic Oh man, you ain't kidding.

So that's the rule. Now first science everybody, Yeah, that's really true, and you're always like, I feel like every time I've been to traffic court, which has only been two or three times it's been, I'm always feel like I'm the last person that all day long, and uh, always envious of the people that are are are up there first. But at the end of the day it ends up being fairly interesting for a dude like me who just enjoys um watching this sort of experience play out.

Have have you ever been to traffic court and you were like looking at the cops who showed up, and you're like, is that the one I think I gave me? Think? Because you know if they don't if they don't show up, they throw out your case supposedly, right, which I'm not even sure if that's an urban legend or not, But I don't know if it is. No, I think it might depend, but I think that can be the case

for sure. Well, I've never I've never been able to perfectly say yes, the cop that gave me the ticket is not here, because you know that's because you were whacked out. They man, I really can't remember. I wasn't even a traffic court. I was like in jail, just hallucinating at the time. Um. Yeah, I have heard that,

because that was the advice I always got. Um was, all right, you want to plead not guilty just in case they don't show and then by the time you you actually get up in front of the judge, if they've shown up, you can always change your plea bro. And they actually have another Um, they have a diversionary court or a diversion court like a side court that they've set up for a traffic court where you can go in plead guilty and then pay like a reduced fine and you don't have to sit there for the

whole day. And it's really a They just take any pretense of trying to keep people safe as the reason they give out traffic tickets. Just they completely do away with it. It's just like there's like a guy wearing one of those green brim like bankers caps, you know, if you make it fast, Yeah, pretty much exactly. And and but there's like no public safety aspect to it. It's just a money making thing. But that actually qualifies is like this kind of thing with a drug court.

It's like here's a regular court, here's something else off to the side that we're using to to divert people out of the clogged court system. For sure. Yeah, I think it's I think everyone should go to court, just at least once. I want to be on jury duty. You know, I got called not too long ago, and I didn't they you know, they didn't even call me up to be questioned or whatever. I just ended up being hanging out all day and then they dismissed a whole lot of like the thirty people I was with.

But I'm I'm into it. I would definitely do it. I certainly wouldn't want to be tied up for weeks or what do they call it when you have to question? Yes, a question? No way, But but they give you, like case, you get dinner for free. Yeah, but come on, I know would be tickets old after like two or three weeks. I think you're right free dinner. Um, all right, So where were we? We're talking about good judges and bad judges.

So yeah, everyone's sort of on the same team in drug court, which is, let me get to know this person, let me find the root of their problem, let me see if we can help them walk this straight and narrow together, which is sounds very hippie dippy. I'm kind of surprised this took root in the United States. Yes, so, yeah,

it is simpler or something, right, super Scandinavian. Yeah so um so again this is ideally not every judge is going to fit this bill, but drug court judges would tend to lean towards this, this personality trait um or or act like this more than say your typical criminal court judge. Right, so they one of the things that's expected of them as part of being a drug court judges.

They are meant to be kind of a social worker almost for this person, which is a really weird position for a judge being why not just leave it to the social worker? Well, again, you come back to the coercion, right if you. And this is supposed to be built into a good, even average drug court program. It treats addiction as a public health problem, as a chronic disease, And if you're not familiar with that model of addiction, go listen to our addiction episode because it's really interesting.

But it treats it is like, this is a chronic disease, so it's expected that this person is going to probably relapse, probably with certainty, depending on the level of their addiction, and that is not grounds to wash out of the program the first time, or maybe even the second time, or maybe even the third time. It's up to the

judge's discretion. But eventually you get to a point where the person either washes out of the program or it's clear they're not really taking it very seriously, so the judge will um issue what's called a flash in carceerrat, which means you you showed up to take your drug test, it's been four weeks since your lasting court. You're in the program, and you just failed, and the judge is

tired of you failing your drug tests. And the next thing you know, you're wearing an orange jumpsuit and spending the next ten days in jail to kind of like snap you out of it and get you serious about

this thing again. And then over time, eventually you'll just you'll wash out, You'll get kicked out of the program and end up in criminal court, and you will pick up where you left off, which is the beginning of your trial for whatever the original charges were, right, but the idea that you can be incarcerated and still remain in this program, and given these second and third chances, depending on what the judge and the prosecutor and the

court staff think your level of dedication is. That's you. You're not going to find that anywhere else in the in the criminal justice system in the United States. No. And not only are they do they try and treat people for drug abuse, but if you were a victim of domestic violence, they will you will go to an

age see to help you with that. If you they work a lot with veterans, um if you suffer from PTSD, or if you're just a drug addicted veteran, then they're gonna make really sure that they're taking care of you and providing you with all the medical and mental health benefits that you have. And I love how our article says it that you have earned, not even that you like deserve, like you have earned this right. And so this is another just crazy different thing about the drug courts.

Is imagine that Chuck imagined is basically being like homeless and addicted to heroin and you're a veteran right to to have people who have access to computers and emails and know the phone numbers of the services you're supposed to be calling, and know what forms you need to fill out and then even how to fill out those forms, to have access to people who can help you do that, so that all of a sudden you actually do get the benefits that get you off of the street and

into a treatment program and get the government to help pay for it. Like that's that's invaluable. And that's another aspect of drug Court is that you they provide those services, you have access to those people who are helping you get those services, or if your child has been taken away, they help you navigate them the child welfare system so that you can go take the classes you need to take to get your child back. Um, there's just a lot of different services that they offer that they help

people with two that I think it's just an amazing idea. Yeah, and it's it makes sense too because one of the big drawback are not drawbacks, but one of the big things holding these people back many times is when you're a heroin addict, you are robbed of any ambition to do this yourself. Even if you wake up sober and you're like, man, I don't want to live this kind

of life, but you are addicted to this drug. So you don't wake up and think, let me go to the the local library because they have the internet there and I can sign up and find out where this stuff is. And I have no family that's going to help me do this or I've rejected them, like that first step can literally just be the person it's like, yeah, this is the number I will. You can be driven there and dropped off there and that can kick start

the the process of getting healthy again. Right. So that's a huge part of drug court tune. That's a huge part of the success of it. So there's this whole court system set up there that if you if you want to take advantage of it, you can get off of drugs and you can stay out of jail. And the way that it's from what some of the studies I've seen, the best role that a judge can play is supportive but also stern, not a pushover, but also

just not a blowhard. No, there's no room for blowhards in here, but there's also no room for somebody who's just completely being taken advantage of by person after person. Right, So you want a nice mix and the judge, but you also want to Jose is going to listen to the other professionals too, uh, and act almost as an

advocate of the person who's who's in it, um. But they're also meant to kind of create this atmosphere where you are, you're you're doing this like this, you're this is good man, You're I'm this is a respectable thing that you're doing, and therefore I'm going to treat you with the respect that you're earning right now, by right, and rather than confrontation and shame, which apparently has a terrible effect on addicts, regardless of whether you're in court

or in a rehab treatment or whatever. Um. And then the the end of it is considered like a graduation, like it's meant to be a big deal, so much so that they'll actually bring other people who are in the program to court on the day that you are graduating from the program because they they it's a it's a it's kind of a big deal, and they treat

it like a big deal. Exactly, yeah, exactly, And they're treated with respect and all these people who they've probably become at least, you know, civil with, if not jovial and friendly with, over the last like ninety days or twelve months or twenty four months, um. To see them patting that person on the back. I'm sure that that means a lot, you know. Yeah, So the idea that it's this is it is it just feels really weird to be talking and not say and of course we

mean Sweden. You know, it is very, very weird. But it's out there and it's it's growing like wildfire. All right, Well, let's take a break and we will come back and finish up with um some statistics and some more glowing reviews, and then of course the dreaded poopo ing of the bad side of drug courts right after this that k should know my dumbnail large ski. All right, So the cool thing about these kind of programs, when the government is involved in pouring a lot of money into these programs,

is that there's gonna be a lot of research. And there's definitely been a lot of research on drug courts, and all data points generally point to the fact that it works on a pretty big level. Um, it works. Uh, it saves people money and saves taxpayers money. It lowers crime, it reduces crime, it lowers the rate of recidivism. Um.

One bone head word, I think we can agree. So let's start with a stat from inside jail in prison of offenders in jail in prison abused drug and alcohol like while they're in prison, in jail, okay of them are clinically addicted. So it is clear that there's a really big problem to just sending addicts to jail. Yeah, because again, remember not a lot of jails, especially like

city and county jails, have treatment programs. You're probably in a federal penitentiary or a good state pen if you're getting a treatment program, and if you're a low level drug offender, you're probably not going to state or federal penitentiary. You're going to city or county jail. Well, yeah, and sixty of of inmates who seek drug treatment, like if they have the program and you just want to seek

that program while you're in prison, drop out early. Uh. With the thinking for drug courts being that there's no like they're already in jail. There isn't that carrot dangling or rather maybe a hammer dangling above their head that said, you know, you can avoid jail by doing this. They're already in jail, so there's not a lot of incentive. So the thing about drug courts is that they they apparently change that thing this this article says they reverse

all these numbers. It's a little glib if you ask me, but they definitely are in it. They do. So. There was a UM National Association of Drug Court Professional study, and there's been other studies that should have shown similar UM statistics, but something like UM. The recitativism rate is like um SI after the first year, after the second year, which is far less than what you would find in the in the general population for people on probation UM.

And these are people who have completed the program, which is we'll see as a big caveat UM. People who are parents in the drug courts tend to their kids, tend to spend less time in foster care, and their family is more likely to be reunited after they complete the program. UM. What else reduced crime rate compared to alternatives. And then another study from the National Institute of Justice for Escambia County, Florida, which I believe is Pensacola area UM.

They said the felony rearrest rate there was lowered. So there's a lot of a lot of statistics that really seemed to show that this works, including reducing prison population which saves the state's money. Making it making improving employment opportunities, which would give more tax revenue. Uh, And so it seems like it's all like a no brainer. Why would anyone have a problem with us? Well, here, here's why I didn't get this Drug Policy Alliance when fully did you? Yes?

All right, what's the deal there? So one of the things that drug courts do is they take the war on drug ugs from the supply side, which means like invading Mexico, to the demand side, which means busting users. Right, and drug cord is just basically a new iteration of the idea of busting a user, but rather than just busting them again and again and again in the hopes that they'll eventually give up on drugs, they this is to cure them of their addiction to drug It's the

court intervening, but it's still the same thing. And the Drug Policy Alliance is like, this is, we don't need to be doubling down on busting low level users and addicts. We need to treat it strictly as a public health thing.

And if you are busted with a small amount of drugs, you shouldn't ever go to jail like it should be decriminalized and what they're saying is that this this whole thing is like a whole new direction, a whole new push that's just keeping us from decriminalizing low amounts of drugs, which the Drug Policy Alliance says is best practices. All right, that makes sense. Uh, And then you send a really interesting article, Um, what was that was that the Atlantic? No,

it was a Pacific standard. It was the Pacific. It's the Atlantic of the of the West Coast. Yeah, that one was really interesting because they paint are not paint. But they kind of tell another side of the story through a few examples of real people, which is, all right, let's say my son or daughter is addicted to heroin and they go through like what you talked about, like the flash incarceration, Like, hey, you came in here and

tested positive. Um, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw you right back in the slammer for ten days. What's happening is is a lot of these people, and it depends on the drug, but especially in the case of heroin and opioids, is they're putting people in back in jail very quickly who are in the middle of going cold Turkey, right, So that's not a good situation and kind of round me across the board. Medical professions have agreed that that methodone and what was the other drug? Oh,

I can't, I couldn't, uh like benzer. Let's just say method because most people know that one. That methodone is like an essential medicine if you are trying to kick an opioid or heroin habit and under the terms of of a drug court, you can't use methodone even right, So they they found that fifty percent of drug courts in the US have an outright ban on what's called maintenance and the idea behind matenes and like you said, it's like the medical community says this is the best practice.

If you're addicted to heroin or opioids, you go get what's called a maintenance dose, where you get a little dose of something like methodone, and you get it every day at the same time, every day, the same amount, and you get your body so used to this that you're no longer getting high. But it keeps you from going out and getting high because you are no longer

have that craving, you're not drug seeking anymore. And apparently they compare it to like being on prozac that you can go out, have a job, have a high stress job, live a normal life and beyond methodone, this maintenance dose of Method methodone and and not get ever get back on heroin. Well fifty of drug courts say no, this is an abstinence based court court. To be part of it, you can't trust, you can't um test positive for drugs,

and therefore you can't be on methodone. And so what they're doing is if you if you wash out of this court system, whether they kick you in the jail or say you're out of drug court and you've been you haven't been on methodone, but you have been off of heroin. When you get back on it, what used to be just a normal dose to you could kill you. That's just what happens with your body when you're in withdrawals.

So it's like these drug courts that are abstinence based drug courts are setting you up to overdose on heroin if you don't follow this program strictly right, And they're what they're saying is like judges are judges who don't listen to the medical community's best practices are that's a

very dangerous situation. Yeah, because you're I mean, they know that you're super at risk for uh, for relapse, and then once you're in there for ten days and you're cold Turkey and you're clean, then then you are also, like you said, significant risk for overdosing and possibly dying.

So again, it seems to be specifically with like heroin and opioids, which is, you know, maybe the biggest problem in our country right now drug wise anyway, So I'm not discounting that, but especially in these cases, it seems like drug courts need to at least be uh. They're not saying drug courts are bad, but they need to h they need to maybe work with the medical community a little more when it comes to heroin and opioids as the best practice forgetting these people clean, because that's

the goal, right And a lot of them do. A lot of them do allow for medication and maintenance. That's good to know. I thought it was rare what that that they allow for maintenance. Oh yeah, no, like like a lot of them do, say none whatsoever. Um, but yeah, a lot of them do. Some of them though the other fifty some are on certain basis bases like if you're a pregnant woman, they'll let you do a methodone treatment or something like that. Um, there's it's not like

half let you and half don't. It's half don't and then some of the other half let just anybody like maybe twenty just openly allows it. But that that is the way to cure somebody of heroin and denying them that is it's just not it's ill informed. Well yeah,

and very sadly. I mean it is anecdotal. I don't know what kind of um big studies they have on this, but you know, they sold very specific stories about people that went through drug court were released and overdosed and died because their body couldn't take what, like you said, was a week and a half ago a normal dose. Right,

it's very sad. And then again there's the other there's the other aspect where it's like they they are you know, since they can select who comes into drug court, they're selecting people who are going to likely graduate and let their make their drug court look even better. And so they're going to pick first time or scared kids who who are like, my whole life is going to be ruined if I end up in jail, um, who will

probably see the program through. And so that means that the data is kind of cherry picked, you know, like like these recentativism rates, those are for people who complete the program. For people who wash out of the program, they're actually worse off than the people who were similar criminals under the same circumstances that just kept going through criminal court because they ended up with more prison time, more jail time than they would have had if they

just stuck the criminal court. So there's definitely some criticisms of it. It can be done better, but it does seem like there are some courts out there that actually do follow like these ideal best practices models. It's just there's just so much leeway that it's different from court to court, and it just depends on the judge. Really, you need Harry Anderson in there, sure you do. All those judges need to learn at least three card tricks and look good in black. You you got anything else?

I got nothing else? I don't either. So let's see. If you want to know more about drug courts, you can search those words on the search bar hou stuffts dot com. And since I said that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call this what will be one of two North Korea responses in this in a subsequent recording. We got a lot of good feedback about that episode. I was pretty stoked. I was two. I was nervous. Um. Hey, guys, was able. Uh, this is from Ken in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

He said, I've enjoying your show for a while. Now I wanted to toss a stone to your North Korean pond. I was able to visit the d m Z. While I was there for a while, he told a story why he was there. But he was able to go to the d m Z, and he said it was fascinating. I thought it was funny that each side built super tall flagpoles to be just a little taller than the other, and also made modifications to their buildings on either side of the blue huts to also be taller and more

imposing than the other. South Korea actually trains their d MZ guards stand watch and the most imposing stance possible. One more thing I'll share is the talk I had with my Korean co teachers. I asked him what they felt about reunification, and the universal answer was that there should be one united Korea and they hope to see it happened soon. The lone dissenter was a woman. He said, she recognized how difficult that process would be, and she

didn't think it would be good for the country. And the other teachers heard this co workers opinion, they all looked at her like she had just poured mayonnaise on the kimchi. That sounds delicious to me. I don't know what the is there? If there were, the Japanese mayonnaise made me yeah, exactly. Oh man, what was that stuff that was so good? Qps and more of that please? Uh.

They couldn't believe she wasn't for reunification. Your culture is less individual individualistic than ours, so they often altered the party line on such things, but she did not anyway. Thank you for turning my long drives and monotonous tasks into opportunities to think and learn. My wife and I in most evenings talking about our days and how they went, and I often discussed the topics on your show because that's what I've been contemplate. Ken from Lancaster p A.

Thanks a lot. Ken. Say hi to the Amish out there for us because they don't listen to our podcasts. Yeah, give him an give him an iPhone. The world there was one thing that Um I wanted to mention. There are actually two things in that episode that I forgot to mention. One was the nineteen seventies six Acts attack of North Korean guards against South Korean guards? Did you hear about that? Like killed by a hatchet for goodness sake? Right? Um?

And then the current president was on the team who came out after that and finished cutting down the tree that the South Korean guards were originally doing. And then the other thing is that North Korea holds the Mass Games and they hold it in like this, it's like their own personal Olympics, and they hold it in a hundred and fifty thousand person stadium. And there's a I think it's a national geographic documentary about this girl who's

a gymnast or a dancer or something like that. I can't remember, but it's her training for the mass Games. It's a great documentary. Check it out. Okay, thanks a lot, Ken, thank you Chuck for letting me talk, and thank you for listening. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can tweek to us. So I'm at josh um Clark. We're both at s Y s K podcast and Chuck is at movie Crush. Chuck's also on

Facebook dot com, slash stuff you Should Know. Chuck's on Facebook dot com, slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and slash Stuff you Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff Works dot com and it's always joined usutter home on the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff Works dot com.