How Curiosity Works

I know on tomorrow, I know. And it is the awesome, awesome w FM you out of Jersey City, and it covers the New York metro area, and it is the oldest free form radio station in the country and very highly respected in one of my favorite stations because I stream it online, which anyone can do. Yes, So you're gonna be able to stream our show online or just

listen to it if you live in New York. Right. So, um w FMU is taking a couple of old podcasts and putting them together into an hour long show that they're gonna air pretty cool stuff, very cool and and you can hear that on If you live in New York, you know FMU, but in case you don't, it's one FM and in Hudson Valley nine point one, so you can listen to us all over the place up there. Those are total public radio. UM Mega hurts, yes, and

we are on Friday. I guess we need to say when every Friday from seven to eight pm on w FMU. You can hear us or you can stream that online and your support is appreciated as always. Nice let FM you know you like us. If you do, and if you don't, just keep it to yourself. Nice Chuck. Thanks. How's it going, Chuck? It's going harried and good? Is that you're about to go to l A max Fun Con technically Lake Arrowhead l A first for a couple of days, so then Maximum Con. That's right. Yeah, I'm

excited for you. Yeah, you're going to hang out with um jesse Esteemed, head of the Podcasting Division of the World, head of Maximum Fun dot Org, in the voice of the Sound of Young America, and Jordan jesse Go, among others. To do to is a young mogul. But I think my title that I just gave him, I think the title I just gave him he'd prefer which is what ahead of the podcasting division of the world. I didn't even hear that. Sorry, his buddy and ours Hodgeman is

going to be there. Actually, the part of Josh Clark at this weekend will be played by John Hodgming. That's gonna be pretty cool, totally. You guys are doing trip together. Yeah, I'm a little nervous. Oh, Chuck, you're gonna knock it out of the Come on, hey, guess who's there now? I do know you want me to? Yeah, Andy Rick the Yes, my all time heroes. Yeah, that's gonna be pretty cool. And tell him I said, I can ask

for some sidekick advice, dude, I'm just kidding. All right. Well, we'll probably edit out that with anyway, So having lunch tomorrow with our buddy Luke Ryan, tell him I said, high on the Paramount Pictures lot. Do you know who's losing her mind right now? Katie M, Katie M beautiful? You already forgot good enough? Let's get started, shall we? Chuck? Great? Okay, Chuck, I have a little bit of a story for you. Okay. I don't remember when I was looking for it, but

at some point in time, it occurred to me. I had no idea where the origin of the phrase curiosity killed the cat came from. Right, it's written on my page. What do you have? Oh? I don't have the origin. I just thought, you know, well, I killed the cat, so it couldn't be good. You wrote that down. Oh I didn't write that down. You had a note to remember that. I'm telling you, I went the wrong way to get here to work today, so I'll handle this. Um. I went and onto the internet with a capital eye,

and I found that. Um. I found that it was attributed to a playwright named Ben Johnson, right, um. And he wrote a play in you mean old Ben Johnson that lives out Yeah, the the immortal Ben Johnson, the one who just won't die. Yeah, okay, Um, his play every Man in his humor with a you. So you know he's like British. Uh. He is the quote helter skelter, hang sorrow, Carol kill a cat, uptails all and a

loose for the hangman whatever that means. Right, but he's got Carol kill a cat, meaning like worry will kill a cat, which is weird because this is associated with later on worry and curiosity are associated for a little while. Yeah, finally we get to eight right exactly four three hundred years later, and the first Ben Johnson still around, Old Ben Johnson, he's he's more secluded than ever. We finally get to um the Galveston Daily News, right four hundred

years later. Isn't that weird? Three hundred years later. I don't know why I can't subtract and come up with the right number anyway, In the Galveston Daily News, the first time it appears in print, the proverb it is once said that curiosity killed the Thomas cat. They couldn't just say it like the right way. But Thomas cat is a Tom cat, like Tom and Jerry. But we've had it ever since then. Did you know that I had no back then they called it the Thomas cat.

That well, that was a new thing you just learned. But the fact that I went and looked for that was really no gratification whatsoever. There's nothing offered. No one was paying me to go look it up. Is an example of curiosity. True, it was also part of your job where you get paid to do. But I know what you mean. I don't think it worked into any of the stuff I wrote so we're we I did you You've just let the cat out of the bag?

That um cat? Uh that. I was asked to write how Curiosity works in part because we have a TV show coming up here in the Discovery Family eventually called um Curiosity. It's gonna be huge when it happens. I think it's coming out this summer, answering a lot of the just really cool questions of life and beyond. And then, um, there's a website that's already running curiosity dot com. Yeah, we right for that, son too. Um, it's very cool.

It's worth checking out. Um. But I was asked when all this was going on to write how Curiosity works, and I was like, it's not going to be that great, And I wrote it, researched it and wrote it, and I thought this is really great worth podcasting on. Absolutely agreed, sir, So Chuck, Um, have you ever landed an assignment like that? What that you thought it wasn't gonna be great and

then you ended up being proud of it? Yes, not even proud of it, is like, this is not going to be that interesting of an assignment and it turned out to be good. Like two longs, one heart, right, right right, Wow, you really are not showing up. I'm here, I'm right here. All right, Well, Chuck, let's talk about curiosity. Well, what you pointed out, which I thought was kind of neat, was that it killed the cat theoretically, so the cat

wouldn't have done well evolutionarily speaking. So that's something that sort of flies in the face curiosity as a whole sort of flies in the face of evolution. Because bring back Tuk Talk. He's making another appearance. Back in the day. Tuk Talk gets a little curious about what's in the cave and talk Talk ends up with a slashed chest from a Yeah, cave bear or the clan of the cave bear. Yeah, And so tuk Tuk is not around, he doesn't reproduce, so his his offspring won't live on

to be more curious. So still humans are curious beyond that greed. Take that, Darwin. Yeah, and um, that's kind of that's a I guess that probably forms the basis of why we don't really understand curiosity because we can't explain that, and we can't explain that because we don't understand it, and we don't understand it because we can't explain it, which is to me seems incredibly appropriate. Like, think about it. So we need as humans, right, very

limited stuff. We need a certain amount of water, Um, we need a certain amount of food, and we need shelter, and then as a species, we have to reproduce. Right, Yeah, that's it, that's all we need. We don't need your modest mouse t shirts, your last chance garage hats um. Frankly, your facial hair is the ted superfluous. Really, it's not necessary. It's not really doing anything for your survival, not for

my survival. But if you look around, Chuck, I mean, like, we've got some pretty great stuff going on that enhances our existence that we don't need. So one of the well a number of the things that we have that have enhanced our existence are the result of curiosity, right, like um, penicillin, Alexander Fleming, Sure right, he said what exactly is growing in this petrie dish here? And investigated it and found out that you could save millions and

billions of lives with it? Right? Yeah, I would say many, if not most, of the big advancements we've made have been because of an initial spark of curiosity at least. But I would even go back to counter sir that even like survival does in fact depending on curiosity to a certain degree, because maybe if Tuck Tuck doesn't go see what's on the other side of that mountain, he doesn't find the rich fields of wildebeest to hunt and

his family starving. That is very, very good point, Chuck, And I think he revealed something, um that that forms the basis of curiosity. Um. If for some reason, say he was afraid of finding out what was over the mountain, he would never go. Curiosity exists in antithesis of fear. They're actually counterproductive to one another. Yeah. I thought that was a good point. Yeah, well now mine, Well you got it from somewhere. No, there's a whole field of

research called curiosity research. There's a guy named George Lowenstein who I quote pretty early on in the um in the article basically saying like, whether you understand curiosity or not, it just try to turn off the television set towards the end of a close football game. Can't do it writing there you are in the world. So what Lowenstein was pointing out is that there's probably a biologic basis to curiosity, and that suggests that it's a drive, right, Yeah.

And what I like about this, and we'll you'll see consistently throughout this podcast, is that curiosity isn't one thing because it's sort of esoteric, but it's also a little like everything you mentioned in here is it's a little bit of both. I think starting with within us or without us, is something exists inside us or something outside acting upon us. That's that's the big question. And I think it also it depends on the situation too, as

we'll see. But there there's two rival explanations as it stands now for curiosity, and one is that it's within us, and one is that it's without us. So like within us as drive theory, right, you like being hungry. It's exactly right. We have a hunger for um, basically superfluous information, stuff that we don't need to survive right now, and so we go seek it out in the form of learning a new language or um crossword puzzles. But you like the inner drive to this similarity to regular hunger

and eating and satisfying that hunger as well. Right, it's this innate thing within us that we just have to satisfy. Okay, that's drive theory. Then, there's another theory that says, no, it's a pretty much a response like say an emotion, right or pain to an external stimulus. Objects specific in congruity is that what it's called. Well, it's it's saying that that curiosity is objects specific, and it's called incongruity theory. Right.

So in congruity theory says that there is a certain order that we can expect to the universe, and when we notice something that is outside of that order, then we are forced to investigate it. We can't resist investigating it. But that's in reaction to something outside of us. Yeah, but I thought everyone was like this, but it's just not true. No, it's definitely not And one example you use was why is that truck parked across the street

at two am? That big delivery truck. I would always be curious about that, but I guess some people would just see that and not think anything about it. Well, I think with with the you're you're, it's absolutely true. But there may be something that um captures your curiosity or your attention that wouldn't somebody else, Or somebody might be curious about that picture of Nikola Tesla next to you that just don't look at it, you know, but

that could be because you're curiosity statiated about it. So those are the two big rival theories, drive theory and incongruity theory, right, And also to go a little further on incongruity theory, so say, um, all of a sudden, you noticed that a pencil was just kind of moving slowly across the desk in front of you. At the very least you would jump up and then look, But

there's no way you're not looking. I'm looking around right immediately. Okay, So that's that's external, that's a response to the universe. But the problem is that both of these UM theories, uh do they have a big hole in one one fills the other's big hole. So you put them together and um, you've got maybe a whole unified theory of curiosity.

But well, yeah, I'm close. It's probably close. But so, um, the big hole for UM for incongrety pny theory is, you know, crossword puzzles aren't an example of disorder in our universe. You know, why would somebody go out and seek it? Drive theory? I can't think of there there it's big hole. But there's there's a there's a hole there and I can't remember it. But it's from my money drive theories, the more correct of the two curious last.

So there's a further way to subdivide curiosity, um beyond these theories, and this is slightly more um, slightly less theoretical, and more observational. Yeah, this is why I think we studied this in school. I remember studying this a little bit. Okay, we'll take it away, not in depth, but because it was high school. But state and trade those are the classifications of the two types of curiosity and um they

describe how we engage in curious behavior. So state curiosity would be the pencil moving on its own and being curious about that. It's basically by state they mean, don't they mean like circumstantial, almost situational, like there's something going on right then it's it's fleeting and it could be anything from like that truck or that pencil to standing

at a funeral and thinking about death. Yeah, but if you're just thinking about death in the afterlife, that's trade curiosity, right, unless you're at the funeral, yes, right, yeah, it depends like um. So with with trade curiosity, remember when we talked about happiness in that one audio book. Yeah. Yeah, so I remember state versus trade. So there's state happiness like winning the lottery, but you always went back to your baseline. This applies very much so to the same

to curiosity as well. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Um, So with with state curiosity, it's situational. With trade curiosity, it's like your whole life, say um Ernest Becker he he would have been traite curious about death. Yeah, because he thought about it outside of funerals. He thought about it

a lot, and because it was his life's work. You could make the you can make the case that he had a depth of trade curiosity for death, which is a further subcategorization of curiosity, right right, And then you know the trade obviously is just you're probably born curious. You have a lifelong interest just for the sake of learning things. But you also um tag on here that it is also linked to all kinds of things like arson and fearlessness and experimentation with drugs, So there's a

downside of that. Whereas the first state curiosity is a little more related to reward, even though they both can lead to reward, like um, excitement, or a sense of stacy, assaciation, stay, statiaty, satiaty, yeah, saciousness. Um, I'm curious with the correct pronunciation and I'm not um with what you were saying though with with with trade curiosity that chuck the fact you know that does have a dark side to it. Um. Overall, it's generally viewed.

It is a very very positive thing, highly encouraged. Um, except for this one period in the West when curiosity was reviled during the Middle Ages St Augustine, Saint Augustine and his Confessions, and I think like three nine two fun Killer basically said like God has a special place in hell for the curious, because um, I think that was pretty much the quote don't ask you many questions?

Well be yeah, don't don't question things, and um it detracts from the time that you have to think about God and your relationship with God and how great God is and um. That's so this is a very brief period of time where curiosity was downplayed or denounced or whatever. Otherwise, it's encouraged for the most part very much. You want your kids to be curious, You want your parents and

grandparents to still be curious. You know, the whole cycle of life thing, because I know you linked you found one study of Alzheimer's patients who they display a very low level of curiosity, and uh, that's sad. The older you can keep that brain vital. We talk about a lot, but curiosity has a lot to do with that, I think, yes, And um, fear also tends to increase in Alzheimer's. Um, yeah, they're they're negatively correlated. As one goes up, the other

goes down generally, all right, because you said that fear. Basically, curiosity gets you out of your comfort zone and fear keeps you in it. Right, that's exactly right the concept. So, um, we were talking about trait curiosity and that it can be subdivided even further. Um, those two categories are depth and breadth. So if you're interested in a lot of different things, but you're constantly something new, maybe right, Um, that's breadth of curiosity. There's just a lot of different

things that appeal to you. But if you're interested in, uh, the French language and you start studying it back to you know, pre Roman era, right yeah. Yeah, Johnny Fuller here with the piano, does he know the piano pretty well? Yeah? Dud. He didn't just like say, learn how to play the piano. He's learning like theory, and he's learning about how pianos are constructed, and he's learning about the history of like plucking a string and what that means to his life.

Curiosity very much a depth. So either way, that's just great though, you know, I mean you're and I think it depends on the mood of society. I remember when you know, which is better. Like when we were in school, UM, colleges wanted kids that were like really well rounded. They wanted people with like a breadth of curiosity UM. And nowadays they want their campus to to um have a breadth of curiosity by having people with depth, deep curiosity

a bunch of people. No, No, like it's students. Yeah, man, they know state universities have to make you take your base courses and all. But I think all colleges should really just let you take what you want to take. Do you think they should be free? No, I don't know about that. I think they should be free. I mean that'd be great if they were free. I mean Georgia when we went there might as well have been free.

It's like five hundred bucks a quarter. You know, it was really cheap, but I would I would have easily traded in the classes that I could still don't care about now for a lot more of the ones that I really enjoyed and we're interested in. It worked like a charm. That's a good point, my friend. So, UM, Chuck, we've covered pretty much all of the UM angles. I

guess all of the science of it so far. Curiosities existed mostly in the realm of UM psychologists cognitive behavioralists, I believe who really took up the mantle and UM started investigating and I think the fifties or sixties UM, and they came up with some pretty pretty cool ideas. UM. But I think, really what's been settled on, and I think it's probably correct. We just haven't been able to fully flesh it out, is that there is some sort of internal drive that makes us curious and then it

has to be satiated. Right yet starts, you point out, It starts with babies. Obviously. That's how you learn simple things like the stove is hot and the floor is hard, and closing that door on my finger will make me cry that daddy upset. That's or I will lose feeling in my hand forever, like that one listener who wrote in today, right yea. Um. But the the implication of that is, Okay, well, there's an example of what we get for being curious. We've learned about the world around us,

we gain experience ent to a certain age when and beyond. Well, then why doesn't curiosity just dissipate entirely, well, Josh, because we want to be distracted in our brains and you can. You found a cool study they did in the fifties and sixties where they took people in I guess was a solitary confinement. They were doing brainwashing studies. Do you remember when we when we did brainwashing and like those guys came back from Korea. Yeah, I suspect that it

was the same same research. Okay, so brainwash people would sit around and when when nothing else is going on, they would prefer to have like an old stock report read to them over and over. Yeah, the same same studyame one, just to have some sort of source of stimulation, mental stimulation in the face of complete sensory deprivation. Right, So that's why that's one. Um, there's and it's not

just humans either. Rats exhibit this kind of thing where they'll start exploring mazes even though there's no expectation of food. M Monkeys kept in um cages with windows that have sliding covers, I guess, will open to look out, just

to look out. For the heck of it. They finally found what amounts to a um curious gene, right, yeah, I mean after, I mean, you can get cognitive psychologists to say, untill they're blue in the face, that a curiosity is gonna eventually lead to your personality and identity and that's great. Well that's a big one though. Let's talk about that. That's a that's a that that makes

just complete an utter sense to me. Right, yeah, me too. Like, if you think about it, curiosity is going out and gaining experience, and a lot of our identity is the experience that we've gained, the knowledge we have, the intellect we have, and so it makes us interesting to other people. Right.

So uh, And because curiosity is different in every single person, to varying degrees to the different type, each person kind of helps mold their own identity through their own curiosity, and that is why curious people are attracted to other curious people. Yeah, that was a pretty interesting study. I think it was from like University of Texas in two thousand four, and they found just what we said, at high levels of trait curiosity predict how they felt about

one another. Right, So they they they found that people who shared the same levels of trait curiosity were attracted to people with the similar similar levels. But you could put people who had that same level of curiosity but had different um outlooks on life, positive or negative, right, and overrode that. Right, Yeah, it was. It was a bigger indicator of UM attractiveness. That makes sense though, because that's kinda that's your outlook on life almost as your curiosity,

not positive or negative. But like, what do you want to do? Do you want to sit on the couch or do you want to go see what's on top of that mountain? And and it doesn't matter what mood you're in while we do now and the wife, the wife, I want to I want to go over there and te what's on top of the mountain. The husband says that'd rather watch the Packers game, and the wife just shoots him in the chest because she's just so tired of that answer. Do you think how many times a year.

That happened at least four times a year. Um, So, chuck, we were on the gene though, right, yeah, back back you were saying, like, I think what you were saying was cognitive psychologists are talking about the symptom of the action of a gene, right, yeah, which you can study

like correlatively, core, correlatively. I'm curious, but when when if you want to talk to the brain and science, they've pinpointed a gene, the d r D four gene, as being responsible for creating dopamine in the curious is that right? And in the curious great tit songbird um, which are known to be fairly curious birds, right with the silly

silly name um. And they yeah, they found that by enhancing and repressing the expression of this gene um, the birds became more or less um curious, like exploring different parts of their cages, billing nests and strange places. It's very sad science, but it's it's science nonetheless, right, right, But the same thing happens in humans. Dopamine is our reward center, and so we get flooded with dopamine just like we would when we get a reward for Yeah, like a big fat steak or a big vegan, a

crunch ball so delicious. I'm off the vegan crunch falls these days. But you get rewarded with dopamine that way, So curiosity is reinforced through those reward centers. Well that's like scientifically, Boom goes to dynamite right there, right, because anytime dopamine is present, it means that you're hardwired to do that thing. That's that's how we learn to repeat behavior the release of dopamine, and we say, oh, this

feels good, I'm gonna do it again. Oh I like this, I'm gonna do it again, or you know, low fat milk, or I'm gonna go set this building on fire because it it felt really good and I'm curious, right, or volunteer to take part in hands across America? The same thing. Yeah, virtually on the on the cellular level, it's the same exact thing. Setting fires are taking part in in hands across America is the same thing. We're just a big

bag of jeans and cells, right. But in humans, um, I don't believe it's the same in the great songbird. But in humans, a little part of our hippocampus called the dentate gyrus appears to be implicated as the big curiosity region. Right, It accepts dopamine. Right, is a form of payment. Yes, and the hip this this region of the hippocampus, and the hippocampus itself. One of its functions, as we talked about, I think in the Memory podcast,

is to differentiate between already experienced and novel situations. Because if we couldn't differentiate, then hey, it's good to meet you. Every single time, we would just do the same podcast over and over again, and everybody would keep listening to the same podcast over and over again, and it just be just just thrilling every time. Good, let's do let's get stuck on the Muppets loop and just do that would be a good one. I could do that one.

I could do twinkies every single time. All right, Well, I guess we'll just do We should probably agree on one right now, which one? Mm hmm, sorry, let's put it together. You're good, Yes, it is your curiosity satiated. Yeah, I mean, I guess we should anecdotally just say or I will say that I'm I've always been a very curious person, so I have I have a I was born with it. I have a breadth and a depth depending on what my main interest is. And so I've

I've always been pretty curious, I have to. Um. I would say though, that there's always been a healthy mix of fear and curiosity. I would say it's fairly close to balanced. And um, yeah, I don't have enough fear in my life. I don't think I ever have. Really. Yeah, well not not a lot of bad things have happened to you. That's what you think, Chuck Bryant, mysterious, mysterious man. So you're good, I'm good. All right. Well, if you want to learn more about curiosity, brother sister, we get

a whole site for you. It's called curiosity dot com. We're totally shilling for it at this moment, but not because we have to. It is very cool site. Yeah, we didn't even get asked, dude, this watch. They're gonna ask us to do this in a few weeks. We're gonna say done, done and done, and they'll be like, oh, can you re record that intro exactly? Yeah. Um. So that's curiosity dot com, which is a sister site of our beloved and esteemed How Stuff Works dot com, right,

which is where you can find how curiosity works. Um and uh. Since I said how stuff works dot Com and in there is implied the word handy search bar, that means it's time for listener mail. That's right, Josh, and quickly before listener mail, I personally want to issue a an apology to those of you that took offense when I said Wally and disco. I too for people who have the condition. Um yeah, with a lazy eye. I have a friend with a lazy eye. He always called it a disco. I I always thought it was

hysterical when he did so. He thought it was funny. We all laugh. Uh not everyone thinks those things are funny. And I was pretty insensitive when I just threw those words out there, because it is a condition a lot of people feel really bad about. So good for you, Chuck. I want to just apologize for saving it. That was very grown up, but it's not what we're about here.

And if you want to know how I feel about strabis, miss type in strabismus and blogs and how stuff works dot Com into the search engine your favorite search engine, and it will bring up a blog post time all right, unwardly with a little cross eyed Asian girl ron Ward. Enough Forard. This is I'm gonna call this for a good cause from Kristen. We got a lot of those back a few months ago when we talked about your good cause thing and um, well when we called for hey if you got a good calls And this is

one that's I've been meaning to read for a while. Hi, guys, and Jerry just finished to the one on cults. Who is the leader? Uh? And at the end Josh called for people to write in with projects that will better humanity. I think I have a good one. I have the great fortune of working for a credible international humanitarian organization called World Bicycle Relief. Check us out at www dot world Bicycle Relief dot org. I live and working until

our check clears, all right. I live and work in Zambia, in Southern Africa, and we build bicycles that we give to folks in need. Pretty simple. It's great. We are currently doing a distribution of fifty tho bicycles over the next three years. That's ten tho bicycle wheels. That's right. What oh man? This They were given out unit cycles and just go ahead, sorry to the Ministry of Education

to help students and features access school. One of the things I think is super cool is it is u s of our bikes go to children, girl, children, females being disadvantaged and often left out of education, and developing countries like in Guatemala, they're getting them too, girls because they give the bike to the boy in the family so he can get educated. That's that's as old as

the hills. That's right. Our projects, the bike, our project is actively increasing attendance of all children at Zambiane schools. I love my job. It's bettering humanity, promoting education, providing access to healthcare, and assisting with financial stability. Plus it's exercise is good for you. That's right. She encourages to visit Zambia. She said's pretty awesome. Sweet and she's been there for four years ago listening to us since then,

and ours is one of her favorites. We'll take it definitely. That is Christen t World Bicycle Relief dot Org. That's great, Thank you, Christen. We appreciate that. Well, if you have something you've always been curious about, and not something stupid, but something like cool that we could possibly answer, we want to know, don't be stupid. I'm curious how the thermist words? How does it know hot or cold? Also, if you uh, that's not stupid, I just can't answer that. UM.

In installation, it doesn't matter if it's hotter cold. We just installate. Oh, thermist, I thought you might a thermometer. Gotcha. So if you have something you're curious about, tell us we want to know, UM, and we'll try to figure it out. And if you have a podcast that if we had to podcast the same podcast over and over and over again, what would it be. We want to know whether we record it or not. Maybe it'll bring up a good idea. UM. Send those two stuff podcasts

at how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you