How Corsets Work

give you a little nap. That didn't help making things worse. Yeah, this one, I don't know. I mean the history and stuff is interesting, which I assume we'll talk to you first, since we don't plan this stuff out. But um, you know, we're all with a live and let live thing. And I certainly have no problem with a lady or a dude that wants to wear a corset or anybody. Okay,

what's wrong? But when I started reading about the the uh the Guinness Book lady and I went to her website and watch the YouTube, it just kind of freaked me out a little bit. Cathy Young, Yeah, yeah, and we'll talk about her later, but it kind of crossed the line to me to like weird obsessions with physical appearance. But then I think about, like, I'm not going to condemn anyone forgetting all the kinds of weird plastic surgery either,

if that's your thing. I think that I just want people to be happy, you know, right, But I think the um extreme lacing is one thing. It's called also um well extreme lacing, I think is the general preferred term, right um tight lacing. Yeah, it's a perfect example of you're harming nobody. This is strictly your body. It's yours to do what you want with it, have at it. Yeah, but what if it's in the like because men say that's the only way a woman will be attractive, and like,

what's different it's just been in footbinding. That to me is sad and and it's a that's part of a larger issue, you know what I mean, Like if you're doing it because you know you want to catch a man's attention or something like that, who knows, we're not pop psychologists, and it just all this makes me nervous. I did. Actually I had a conversation with um Holly from miss in History stuff. You miss in history class.

She's probably one of course it in her time. Yes, yes, and she actually defends course it's too because I thought, well, it's like the the Western equivalent of footbody. She said, no, no, no, my friend. Uh, it lacks in reality and actuality, a lot of the um, a lot of the sexism associated with footbindinging. That makes me feel a little bit better.

And that course it's in in reality and truth. In the nineteenth century and before, we're um very much chosen to be worn by women for their own tastes, sometimes at the out of spy or not out of spite, but um, contrary to what the with the men in their life might want or desire. Okay, okay, so it's actually it's not necessarily a feminist article of clothing, although Madonna certainly made a case for that, so did Vivian Westwood. Um, but it's it's not as bad as you're thinking. I

think I do feel better now, do you? Yeah? Good. I just don't want to, you know, I don't want to make people feel bad. I want people to feel good always. I want everyone to feel good. That's my problem. Yeah, and we should say, if you're wearing a courser right now, and it feels bad. Everything I've seen in my research says you need to loosen that thing because it's not supposed to hurt. Well yeah, and um even Cathy Young,

who um again we will talk about. But she's againness record holder because she formed her waists into the size of a jar mayonnaise. Um. Literally, oh yeah, gallant size mayonnaise. It said the thing I had said, an average jar, But I don't think that's correct unless those photos on her site though look photo shopped. Okay, but she said that.

All the advice she gave was you go slow. Don't like, you know, if you want to train your waists to be smaller, which you can do, um, don't you know, dive in and just start, you know, doing the extreme

lacing right away. No, there's into it. There's something called um waste training, and that's kind of a uh it's not necessarily the ultimate goal of corseting, which can be a verb, but it is um a kind of a parallels subculture of the corseting culture, and waist training is simply where you are basically through the use of corsets and pretty tight course. It's over a period of time, usually about a decade. You are reshaping your body mechanically, right,

you're not actually losing weight. Although a tight fitting corset acts something like a gastric bypass surgery without the surgery because you just can't put as much stuff in your stomach is normal UM. But the waste training itself, it's just it's a reshaping. It's not actually making you lose weight. So what it's doing is taking uh inches out of the middle and sliding them down to the hips and all of this the whole point for course, it's from

the beginning of course, it's to um. The world record holding course at waste is to um amplify existing female UM body features. Yes, that's the point, that's right. The word uh comes from an old French word c o r s, meaning body and UM. Here's the history, which

oddly came three quarters the way through this article. UH. If you go back in time and the way Back machine to the days of ancient crete, there were women who well I think he and before crete, there were women who tied ropes around their waist to make their waistline look slimmer acentuate maybe the bust and the rear end. Uh. So they were doing that a long time ago and

then an ancient create. Um people think that they are historians, think through the first women that actually wore something that you could call a corset. It was a garment that shaped the body more than three thousand years ago, right it um It covered the I think the waist and the hips and um crete and women went around um bare breasted, so they would have their breasts like saying, hey, everybody,

how's it going? And then below that was the corset okay, And I would imagine um that it probably enhanced the breasts as well. Uh yeah, sure, if you're sent and everything up like that probably probably acted sort of like a pre brazier support and lift. See them so uncomfortable a man. We did one on female puberty that was easier. Oh really yeah, well that was science. This is I see,

I see, you make a valid point. Uh So if you go forward a bit to the Middle Ages, they um for the first time, these undergarments came out in something called the heavy stay, and it was very much an outerwear, but it kind of accomplished the same goal. But it was you know, very decorative and and pretty um.

But that I don't think that lasted too long. They went back under the garment in the eighteenth century, right, and then um, up until the eighteenth century, most things that were part of the Corset family tree or predecessors of course it's were conical. Um no, they were tubular, totally tubular. And then once we hit I think about the eighteenth century, what we start to see today as of course it began to emerge where that's conical, it's

cone shaped, right, um. And from from I guess, yeah, the eighteen century on, of course, it's were like a pretty pretty much a mainstay of fashion, if not the basic ingredient of women's fashion from about the end of the sevres until World War One. Basically, yeah, it wasn't like some weird thing like today. Um. I mean they're still in fashion today, and if you know in certain um like cosplay and costumes in the fetish world and burlesque and stuff like that, or just you know, just

playing sexy time. Sure, regular old sexy time. But um, the stuff I read said it was it was no like more of a strange thing than like a woman to wear a bra today, right exactly, it's just a regular fashion accessory. Yeah. And as we'll see, it was like kind of essential depending on the clos you're wearing, depending on the period. Yeah, that's true. Um, there was

a a real movement. And when I was saying like some men were saying like, you shouldn't be wearing corsets, and women said, t s for you, Pal, I'm still wearing a corset. There was actually a big movement that was UM that came out of uh I guess the nineteenth century, late nineteenth century, that was spearheaded by two brothers, Ira and Lucian Warner Um. And they came up with

an alternative too. They actually were anti corset crusaders. They were both doctors, and they Um basically said you can't beat them, join them, but let's try to create a

corset that's less problematic for women. And the idea that corsets were problematic for women can actually be traced back to a sevente medical article by a guy named Dr Samuel Thomas von Sommering, and Um von Sommering basically made up a lot of the myths about corsets that we know today, that they can cause scoliosis, that they can mess up your liver, that they can lead to permanent

deformation of your body and your internal or inns. Uh. It all kind of came from this and a hundred years after Von Summering wrote his article, UM, the Warner Brothers got in and said, we're gonna come up with a health health courset. Yeah, but they definitely can change. Um. There's something called uh viscer optosis or Glennard's disease, which if you do the tight lacing long term, you're your organs can actually sink and shift away from where they

should be. Right. So, I mean that's that's something that can happen that there is a really good point, man, we should delineate here. Wearing a corset normally, even when you're doing waste training, should not result in that. There is a definite line where if you are getting into extreme corseting, then yes, all sorts of medical problems can happen. Um. But just about every corseting site out there on the

Internet will warn you about going past that line. And in fact, there was a really there's a good um site by Orchard Corsets. They sell corsets. They have a really extensive site. You know, there's stuff about corsets. They actually say one of the ways that the body can be deformed. Is if you're an adolescent girl wearing a corset, Um, your ribs can develop improperly because you're wearing the course. As they say, girls under eighteen shouldn't wear corsets. Uh.

So then along came this guy, um. And we should mention too that when these two the two uh Warner brothers within the United States. Yeah, they were out of Bridgeport, Connecticut. I was gonna say Wigner, but maybe a generation or two before probably so. Um they also changed around the

same time at least Um. I think we have not mentioned yet that Uh, one of the you know, the the course it has to and we'll get into all the parts of the corset, but one of the things that keeps it rigid and stiff and the old days was baleen whale um. And it was actually it was a teeth, right even though called a whalebone. And they would use this to, you know, to make the corsets stiff in in place, keep everything where it should be.

But around that time, in the late eighteen hundreds, is they were overhunted, became really expensive, so they said, all right, forget the whale teeth, let's put in steel in which I'm sure that was quite comfortable, right. Well, yeah, but and I mean women were wearing these like every day. Yeah. But I mean one of the as we'll see when we talk about manufacturing, course it's the UM. One of the points is to make it as comfortable as possible,

this very uncomfortable contraption. Yea, but yeah, they started to use steel, and even today you'll find steel in corsets that are meant to for like waste training or something like that. Uh. And then, like I teased a moment ago, along came this guy named Charles Dana Gibson. He's a he was a graphic artist in the Victorian times, and he became very famous, and a lot of artists that came after him emulated his style. But he became very famous in the eighteen nineties for creating what was known

as the Gibson Girl. So what he did was he he drew all these pictures of this, uh, these ladies who were I mean some say it was like the first ideal of of UM American attractiveness for for women, and it was they wore these swan bill corsets, which made I mean these were even more extreme. They would make you kind of stick the bust out and stick your your rear end back. And if you just look up Gibson girl. I mean, you've seen these drawings before.

It's like America's first cheesecake drawings. I don't know what a cheesecake drawing is. It's like a Gibson girl, okay? Or a Vargus girl is another a little more modern one. Well, supposedly his American boy. You see them cheesecake girls, apparently as his wife and her sisters were his inspiration. And um m is it the sister it's weird. Yeah, they said they were all pretty okay, and he was celebrating. He said that this was not a woman, but it

was a thousand women, is his quote. Got um. And supposedly the Gibson cocktail is named after him, but I'm not sure if that's true. Oh that's great, good for him. M gut him. Pickle onions? Yeah, put in Martini, call

it after me. So what happened? He was actually um working from a corset that was invented by a doctor ines ghosh, so terrible Um who created this course at the straight front, also called the swan Bill corset and the whole problem with it was, and Charles Dana Gibson is criticized for popularizing this because it's so bad for you, Like, there's no question that the swan bill corset is really bad for your posture because the thing that it forces

your spine into is just totally unnatural. And apparently that trend only last for about a decade during the Awardian period of first century of the just ten years, and then pretty much right after that, not right after pretty close of course, it's suddenly just went away because World War One had such a sweeping change on the world. It just it just it was. It created social upheaval. And one of the things that um came out of

this was women said, you know what we're done. Of course it's I'm a flapper now I need to do the Charleston, can't do the Charleston and of courset um and the whole fashion was just different looking, you know it was, and the idealized body was different too. So prior to that and throughout basically history, the Venus body type, which is you know them, the fertile women curves type, was replaced by the Diana type, which is the more athletic type that's now has been in fashion basically ever

since World War One. That basically kill the corset. But the modern bra and slip and all of that stuff came out of that the death of the corset, because they were like, we still need something, we still want to course it anymore. Okay. I think one of the reasons all this made me uncomfortable is just all the categorizations over the years, like this is the ideal women and she's called a Diana, and this is what they should look like. Yeah, that's mean that to me is

like a whole other podcast, you know. I mean, like because plenty of women buy into that, and there they don't feel bad about themselves for buying into it. They say, oh, yeah, this is what I find attractive to uh So. Anyway, during this time in the Roaring twenties, there were the corsetiers that were just like, oh no, well, how about this kind that you can still wear and it's not like the other course that you can actually dance on them, and you know, it's sunk and it. It basically stayed

that way for the rest of the twentieth century. There was a brief resurgence. Christian Dior brought it back in the forties, um, and it was kind of akin to that, uh, that Swan Bill corset. Yeah. Uh. And then it went out pretty quickly. And then in two Vivian Westwood had a show called Buffalo Girls, her collection for two eighty three,

and it brought corsets out. Vivian west Wood, she's a famous designer, kind of punk fashion, um, and she brought courses out from underneath the clothing and made it like basically into a shirt. It was Outerwhere now was that when Madonna got on the train? That was about six years later, And that was Jean Paul Gautier that designed that very famous corset with the conical bra that would take your eye clean out. Yeah. What was the what's the video? I don't remember. I can sing the song

in my head, sing it. No, you know the one Vogue? It was okay, that was a Vogue video, right, I think? So, okay, Well we'll find out if it's not. Um, But that was Jean Paul Gautier. And uh. From that point on the course that has basically stuck a down, sometimes a little a little more predominantly, sometimes a little more in the background, but it's basically been a fashion accessory that you could conceivably wear out in public in the West ever since. Yeah, I mean it sticks around these days,

like you see costumes and stuff like that. But um, and then occasionally, I guess if you're in a swinging nightclub, you might see a lady in a corset or maybe a man. Yeah, we'll talk about that after this. How about that? So chuck your teased men wearing corsets? Literally, Uh, I never tease a man for wearing anything except those dolphin running shorts. Those are great to get back in your time machine. I saw The Boy in the Bubble for the first time. Have you ever seen that movie

here at Trivolta. Yeah, I never saw it, and I watched the riff Trecks version of it. Well that's the only way to pervde it a lot better. Yeah, where did that come from? Oh? I think he's wearing dolphins shorts on one of the scenes, and I was like, dolphins shorts. So, um, yeah, what we're talking about men wearing him? Yeah, So apparently this article makes it seem

like it was fairly normal. But from what I saw in the nineteenth century and there, from what I saw in the nineteenth century was that if you were wearing a corset, and you were a man, you were probably suspected as being gay. And so here's where this kind

of patriarchal view. Of course, it's does definitely hold fast. Um, if you were if you were like a straight establishment type male, Um, you probably did not cotton two men wearing corsets and didn't want to associate with any guy wearing corses because you didn't trust him he was probably gay. But if you were in favor of your wife wearing a corset, she'd better be wearing a corset or else she wouldn't be viewed as a proper woman in normal,

polite society. So it's it's not fair to say like that myth about the corset being a part of the patriarchy is not true. It is true in some ways, but not It's not like women were forced to wear corsets throughout history. They donned it in particular on purpose. And one of the reasons why women wore corsets was because it also served as a basically the thing that held up all of their really heavy clothes. Yeah, like you couldn't you couldn't just slip into one of those

dresses in Victorian times. No, Um, it had a certain shape that required a certain uh form to put it on, and you know that course it would help your body like morph into that form basically, you know, it was a low there was a load bearing structure that you wore under her clothes, a load bearing beam. So I don't think we've really described the how these things were kind of came you know, how they came together. There's some people out there are like, what is a corset? Well, geez,

do we not even say that? And not in so many words? All right, Well, it's a garment and it's usually pretty short, uh, and it's like a it's like a belt, like a a not a wide belt, but a towel, a tall belt. It's like a vest that doesn't go over your shoulders. Yeah, but some of them could go over your shoulders. Well that was the health coursets. I think that did that, all right. Um, they lace

up in the back. We mentioned the whale own, which was actually the teeth of the baleen as these reads, and they were put in what we're called boning channels, which were just a little sheaths basically where they would slip these things down in and um, it's like you know, if you've ever had to wear a back brace or something, it's very much like that. And like Andy Warhol had to wear one of these after he got shot by Valerie Salon. Yeah, for the rest of his life, who

went on to write the Scum Manifesto. You ever read that? Yeah? I thought she wrote it before she shot him, Now did she? We should do one on that whole scene, Yeah, we should. All right, we'll get that, uh. And then they were made out of this um cotton fabric, fabric called kutial c o U t I l um and it's still used today. In course it's because it um doesn't stretch, has very high thread count, keeps all those boning channels and rib or I guess bones in place.

And you you have to understand, like this whole thing, this whole mechanism that is the corset, is basically defying physics at any given point in time. So you have to have some really strong stuff involved in the manufacture

of it. So what else you got? You got on on the front part where it meets you have a busk Yeah, and um that's actually needs to be pretty strong as well, right, So usually that's um wood or metal maybe bone originally, and it was two flat pieces that um that basically went up and down alongside a scene. And most people are I don't want to say most people. I for a very long time thought that you put the corset on and then laced it up, and that you put it on and then laced up the back, right,

you put it around your stuff like that. It's actually not the case. You, um, you were doing it all wrong. I had it all wrong. When you put on the corset, um, you've already got it laced and you're putting the front together. You're putting it around yourself and then fastening the front at the buss. Yeah, but then you tighten the lacens like you don't lace it tight and try to put it on exactly. You just have it kind of pre lace like your shoes. And the lacing kind of confused

me to Actually we'll get into that. Well. First of all, we need to finish the front. There was a flattened part on the stomach. A lot of times it was decorative called the stomacher. Yeah. It was very lovely designs and embroidery and stuff, and that had the added benefit if you were trying to adjust your shape of keeping your stomach flat. That's right, just person all it. So, uh, what else? Are there any other components to the corset that we haven't mentioned? I don't think so. Um, just

the the the lacing. Okay, so we'll talk lacing now then you're ready. Yeah. So, traditionally in the in the Western Europe, the the method of lacing was we're basically like you would lace the shoe. Okay, it's called bidirectional lacing, where you just alternate from one hole of the other diagonally. Right. Um, that's typically what you think of when you see of course,

it's probably what you're seeing is bidirectional lacing. If you look at Italian paintings from the medieval era, you're probably gonna see what's called ladder lacing. It's all right angles, right, so you go from one hole down and then over and then maybe up and then down again, then over, then down and then over, and it forms a ladder. The name is pretty appropriate for that one. And I wonder,

was this just to make it look different? I would guess that had something to do with it, But I would also imagine that it had to do with you know, if somebody was like this actually, this doesn't loosen during the day very much. Because I also saw with the bi directional what you would create in the not at the bottom at the top, it's sort of in the

middle of where it laces these bunny ears. And that was for women because a lot of times in the movies you've seen like the you know, the like down and be like the the lady holding the bed post and then her valet or I guess where the females called valets was valley girl. The lady who helps them dress would be like, you know, cinching this thing down so tight, and they'd be like, breathe in, you know, sucking your breath. But these bunny ears allowed women to

that didn't have a personal dresser to tighten it themselves. Yeah, and apparently that was fairly normal. Um for women wearing courses. They usually put them on themselves more often than not. And those those bunny ears were just two loops of lacing at about the thinnest part, the narrowest part where you had some slack, and then when you put your

corset on, you wrap it around you. You um fasten the busk the little the buttons on the bus the front and then you just pull back tighten it done right. And this is again ideally after you have visited your uh course a tear because apparently, like buying a braw,

guys don't know this stuff. It's apparently tough to get one that like fits just right, and so you need to get like professionally fitted and um, like the off the shelf thing doesn't work for a lot of ladies, right, And that was the case for of course it's for

a very long time. You had to go to a corsetier to to be fitted for one, um and it was expensive from what I understand right, Um, today there I guess because of mass manufacturing, UM, it's a lot easier to make coursets that are fairly close to what a large number of people would use. But the fit

is still extraordinarily important. And apparently from what I well, I should say, from what orchard course, it says, um, women tend to miss uh or to underestimate the length that they need, so that leads to a lot of discomfort there of course it's too short for their body. So I mean, I don't mean to buzz market or anything, but just based on my research orchery, of course, it's if you're getting into corsetting, there might be a pretty decent place to start. Wow, you might get a little

treat in the mail. Uh, let's take another break and we'll talk a little bit more about Cathy Young and some of the myths about corsetting. So I think we didn't mention after corsetting went out of fashion. Uh, girdles came along, like everything has kind of been replaced by something else that does something similar, you know, and like

men these days have those. Uh. It was like, I guess spanks for men almost like these tummy tummy shirts the dudes can wear Marino that suck everything in and uh, and it's all fools gold because what lies beneath is still there, right, I guess if you're trying to impress people who will never see you without your shirt on, go nuts. Um. But Cathy Young, we mentioned a few times she is a Guinness record holder and she started waste training at the age of forty eight. Yeah, it

seems a little late to get into it. Yeah, I thought so too, But she got into a big time. And you were saying earlier. I think at the beginning of the episode that you this is not something that happens overnight. If you're doing waste training, it can usually take it seems to me, about a decade before you get the results you're looking for, which is a waste that the average five year old could put two fingers around. Well.

She said that her goal was never to earn an award and Aguinness called her uh And she holds that record now at fifteen inches thirty eight point one centimeters, So that's for living on a living person. There's actually a woman who holds the record for the narrowest waist ever, narrowest corpse thirteen inches. Who was she? Her name, my friend was as follows Ethel Granger. Thirty three centimeters thirteen inches in nineteen thirty nine was what her waist was

measured at. And she obviously trained her waist yeah over again about the course of a decade. So did you go to Cathy Young's website? Did you see the YouTube's? No?

I think that's where I got a little freaked out because on her website she has like a she has an f a Q section and people were writing in and a lot of people were just like, you know, I think you look great, and you know, give me some tips here and there, and that was all well and good, but then there was one where this husband was like, I'm waist training my wife and just hearing that made it sound like a dog bowl. Yeah, it made it seem like something that he was making her

do right, which may not been the case. It may have been the wording, but it just freaked me out. And he says, right now, I've got her up to eighteen hours a day, but I'm really looking looking forward to seven, and can you give me some tips on how we can accomplish this because she does seven except for when she showers. Cathy Young does okay, always in a courset right, and you know, she gave tips and everything, and like I said, it, just the way this guy

was talking, it just seemed a little creepy. Yeah, no, that is creepy. Sounds like a huge jerk who needs to be set straight. Probably get his butt kicked by a larger dude. Right, But it also chuck. You may also be witnessing, um a B DSM couple coming up for tips or whatever. That's just the reality. And if the if they're both equally into it, and the into that like dynamic, neither one is psychologically suffering or physically suffering from it, then hey, but it could also probably

even more likely be just the guy's a jerk. That was my instinct, but you never know. And the other thing, if you go to YouTube, there's parts Cathy Young, parts one through six, and they are five minute videos of her in different lingeries standing in front of a white backdrop while her picture was being taken and her husband. She's silent the whole time and just kind of turning around and stuff, and her husband is just sort of very calmly talking about it and describing her waist and

what she did and the techniques used. And he's an orthopedic surgeon, so there's a chilliness to it, and it's just creepy man on the subject. Like go watch one of those videos and yeah, that's exactly how it sounds. And you just hear the photograph going to keep and that's the only other thing you hear. It's got like a houseplant. It was just all just weird. But then again, she feels great about herself and that's what she wanted

to do. I'm not saying he forced her, because there were rumors because she was he was an orthopedic surgeon that she he had removed some of her ribs, which is one of the big myths of supposed myths um of back in the day. Uh. And I believe it was a myth because they said back then like surgery was very dangerous. You would have to be one of the um one of the least risk averse people on the planet to undergo elective surgery to removed in the

nineteenth century, you know. So that's by all accounts, very much a myth. Yes, same with Marilyn Manson, I think too. Oh sure, I remember hearing that one. Uh. But she said that you know, no, my husband didn't remove any of my ribs and it's all natural, and um, you know, she's into it, she's very proud of it. So I don't want to It's the same thing with with corseting

in general. I think like just to assume that men made women do that really takes a tremendous amount of agency away from women, you know, like they're just completely vapid shells that are bost around by their husbands regardless, you know. Sure, so you want busts a couple more myths. That's what we do. We're known as myth busters. So

one of the things that I saw. It's hilarious. In this article, um, it says that there's the myth of the Victorian waif who fainted at the drop of a hat because of a lack of oxygen from wearing a corset. And at the bottom of this paragraph the author says, no, no, no, it wasn't that. It was malnutrition and not being able to breathe very well because of the Yeah. Uh that are there any other myths? Yep, that's it. Those are

all the myth Now, there's plenty of other ones. There's actually a pretty cool article on Collectors Weekly written by Lisa Hicks about um corset myths. Uh. And again you should probably if you're getting into this kind of thing, go check out UM well a bunch of sites, but also check out Orchard Course. It's again I have no financial stake in them whatsoever, but check it out. Uh. And it's as I said, go to orchard Orchard of course its dot com slash josh um. Since I said

Orchard course, it's it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this. Thank god that episode is over. Hey, guys, it just finished episode on pain scales, and I find it fascinating when humans try to put an objective score on something very subjective. I'm not sure if he came across this info and your research, but I thought you'd be interested to know that we use pain scales and

veterinary medicine as well. It's even more challenging because obviously our dogs and cats can't tell us verbally and certainly can't draw happier sad faces. And that's the saddest thing of all. Um our assessment is based completely on behavioral behavioral cues and body language. For instance, I'm sure everyone but know a happy, pain free puppy. Uh you saw one sitting square looking you in the eye, ears perked up,

wagging his tail. Because dogs are very stoic, higher pain tolerance than even chuck it can all, it can be very hard to tell when they are feeling pain. Um My, both my dogs got sick recently, so I got to see this in action, like they didn't act sick for a long time, and then I was like, you guys

are sick. That's why they recommend, like if your dog vomiting, take them to the vet, because it's really tough to tell if your dog's bad off norm just by looking at their behavior totally um or if they like don't eat all of a sudden, because that's you know, most dogs, or at least all the dogs out had eat like, you know, voraciously, or if their head comes off that too. As recently the nineteen eighties, it was why we believed the animals didn't feel pain at all, And isn't that crazy.

In fact, you would still encounter veterinarians who don't believe in giving pain meds for surgery and other injuries and animals. Do you remember what kind of talks about that in the animal rights episodes? Oh yeah, that's nuts. It is. This line of thinking is obviously known to be wrong now, and we have come a very long way in the last twenty or thirty years giving better pain control to animals in our care. Google dog pain scale you'll find

a large variety of different pain charts for animals. Keep up the great work. We are eagerly, eagerly awaiting a live show in St. Louis and now it's from Michael Richards. Thanks a lot, Michael Richards. We appreciate you writing it. We come into St. Louis. Maybe all right, it's on the table. Yeah, I think we've got some We're gonna do some shows this year, folks, So look out in

the future. Look out. Maybe we'll see you there. If you want to get in touch with us, you can tweet to us on s YSK podcast and at josh um Clark. You can hang out with Chuck on Facebook at Charles W. Chuck Bryant and uh Facebook dot com slash Stuff you Should Know. You can send us an email the Stuff podcast to how Stuff Works dot com and has always joined us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot com? Mhm