How Book Banning Works

your your jokes. I agree, everyone knows that, right. We don't actually make any of this stuff up. We have somebody right the show and we read it very very um well rehearsed, practiced, labored podcast. That's right. What's it going, Buddy good Man? It's good. I think this is the second of two good topics today. Yeah. Part one a sexuality, Part two banning books. Yeah, what do they have to do with each other? Nothing? I thought I saw a common thread. No that I've looked, I've forgotten it. But

there was something discrimination maybe, I guess. So maybe we'll find out. It'll pop up. Possibly it'll be like the Peewee secret word of the day. Oh yeah, isn't that what it was called? I think so? Man, it was cool. So you got an intro proper for this or chuck? Yes, are you familiar with the last week of September? Yeah you are, yeah, through it before. Yeah, it's after the third week and before the first week of October. That's exactly right. It just so happens that that very week

is Banned Book Week. Did not know that existed? Well? It it does. Yeah. Yeah, you haven't heard a band book week before? Uh no, I have. I've seen like the subversive um display lays outside of b Dalton booksellers, and you know, and basically the whole point of it is, it's like, hey, people have tried to ban these books, so make sure you read these because it means that there's somebody out there he doesn't want you to. It's right, Hey, look what I've got. I've got to kill a mocking

bird over here. Yeah that's attempted. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole point of Banned Books Week is to celebrate intellectual freedom. That's because there are people out there who would take that away from you if they could. We know it. You go back and listen to some of our podcast. There's certain words that were beat out because the man has us under his thumb. Thanks. Um So, I would strongly recommend it's coming up. By the time this thing

gets released will be in September. That's right. We should probably post something about Banned Book Week when it comes Okay, Yeah, September thirty through October six. Actually, um, so, it's really the first week in October this year. It's weird that they would put it in the last week of October, first week of Octobria or last week of September. Yeah. Yeah, that was confusing for a second. Let's let's talk bam books. Man.

More than eleven thousand books have been challenged since Josh, that's just since eighty two they've been I was reading about The Catcher in the rye. Um. It came out in Wow, man, I wish I knew it came out in either the late fifties or the early sixties. At the late fifties or nineteen sixty because in nineteen sixty a teacher who assigned it to his class for reading got fired. Really yeah, um, it's one of my favorite books,

is it? Yeah? And it's one that I've reread several times over the years, and it always takes on a little different meaning depending on my age, which is interesting. Have you read The Catcher's Companion? No, that's we got that as a gift right now. I haven't read yet. It's just like footnotes and extrapolations and explanations, like this guy went into Catcher in the World of Catcher in

the Rye and like made footnotes of the whole thing. Definitely, it's actually thicker than The Catcher in the Rye nineteen fifty one the way, okay, so fifty one. Within nine years somebody lost their job because they assigned that book to read. That's pretty common. Usually with UM book banning, it comes out of UM, the public school system, UM and library. So right, well that's it's usually school libraries.

So if you go on the internet and you look for banned books, you're gonna find a lot of um uh confusion. There's this body called the American Library Association, and a lot of people think that they're in charge of banning books. It's absolutely the opposite of the truth. The American Library Association is a it's it's basically the librarians lobby and they're committed to no censorship whatsoever. Yeah, ask any librarian and they're they're gonna probably be in

favor of not banning books right. Um. As a matter of fact, the l A maintains a library Bill of Rights, and in this library Bill of Rights is a provision for the free access to libraries for minors, which basically says this, we have a bunch of books that we're not going to make any judgments on. If we have a book that you don't want your kid to read, it's your job as their parents to monitor what they read, and you can decide what they read or not. But

you that's it. Your opinion doesn't extend to anyone else's kids. So that means that if you want to ban a book, we're going to tell you no because you're responsible for your child, but not everybody else's child too, Which means in short, that the a l A doesn't censor books. This is a big deal because this happens a lot. There's eleven thousand challenges you said since since nineteen eighty two,

and I think there were in two thousand eleven. There were three hundred and twenty six challenges last year UM. A few of these are the Color of Earth series by Kim Dong Hua and The Reasons Why, Nudity, sex education, the Hunger Games trilogy, My Mom's Having a Baby, a kid's month by month guide to pregnancy. But we certainly

don't want o kids to learn anything about that. No, especially not with um mom uh, Brave New World by Huxley, insensitivity, nudity, racism, UM, To Kill a Mockingbird, like we mentioned Harper Lee's classic because of offensive language and racism. And those are just the few of the nine I'm sorry, ten most challenge books of last year, right. UM. You'll also find in just about every list the most challenged series since two thousand is the Harry Potter books. Um. They received sat

three thousand challenges. UM. And that was from up to I believe like two thousand eight or nine, maybe two of two thousand ten they were for two thousand to two thousand and ten, they received three thousand challenges. And and it was because it had satanic overtones or undertones one of the two, that's how or midtones. People challenging it felt at least so for the most part, when you see a book being challenged, your band it's because

people are concerned about its influence on children. But as we've seen, the American Library Association says, hey, man, kids, kids, there's free There should be free access to information for kids. Yeah, Julie Blooms Forever is one that's always on the list too for that reason because it deals with a uh, young girls burgeoning sexuality and the confusion and the awkwardness and the thrill that comes along with that. And that one isn't that was a great description. Yeah from a

forty one year old man with a beard. Well, dude, that was fourteen once. The girls and boys are all like, you know, we're all scared and awkward and thrilled. So how do you how do you do this? Man? How do you How do you issue a formal challenge to a book? And what is that consist of? What does it mean? It means that you have gone to a library, a single library, and said I want to challenge this book, and the librarian decides whether or not to ban it.

So it's as simple as that. That's how book banning works. Um. And you don't even have to use such lofty language like I want to issue a challenge. You can just say like, this book needs to be taken out of this library. This book is filth um, this book is pervasively vulgar. That's a big one um. And the librarian at that moment decides whether a book gets banned or not, and for the most party, they air on the side

of not banning them. But when they say okay, let's take that book out, that book has just been banned. So it doesn't mean that a banned. That a book has been banned, it doesn't mean it's been banned across the country, although some some countries have like banned books

in its entirety, like the country's entirety. But in the US and in the modern world, it usually means that somewhere in the United States, there's a group of people, whether it's kids in a school district or kids people who are served by a public library who don't have access to a certain book because one person found it offensive and convinced the librarian to to make the decision for everybody else based on that person's objections. That's a

banned book. Yeah, person or persons. A lot of times it's a group pointed together with like a list, even and they'll rally the troops and say, you know, come on out from your your homes and let's get together and submit a list. And the librarians, like you said, most times will say no because they generally have the courts on their side if it gets to that point. For the most part, the courts like to defend the right,

you know, the First Amendment. But I mean, think about that pressure, especially if like you are a school librarian and the school board is telling you, like, hey, don't forget what you employ you and we're telling you remove this book, and the librarians like, no, Ts, that's that's against the First Amendment. Um, so I should talk about some of the laws. I think we should. Let's talk about Do you want to talk about the history of it? Yeah? Um, who wrote this one? I think this was Conger too,

and I don't think so. Yeah, it was a freelancer, okay. Um. You know, basically since the days of Socrates, they've been trying to ban teachings of some sort at the other. Um, he was heavily scrutinized, and back then, if you wanted to ban something, he just burned the few copies of it that existed, and there was no problem. He was made to drink hemlock for what? He for what? Yeah? But yeah, like if there's two copies of a book in existence, and you get both copies and you set

them on fire, and then what happened? What came along well the printing press and all of a sudden you had to officially try and ban a book because there were too many to gather up and burn. And you remember the Star Chamber Starry Michael Douglas. Did you ever watch that? They were the real Star Chamber? Did you did? There was a real okay, so the real Star Chamber Um that was I think created in Stuart England Um Stewart era England. Oh man, I probably shouldn't even say that,

because I'm not sure. In England in the seventeenth century, there was a group of judges that were in charge of like they were like the elite judges. They were the censor board basically was one of their roles. And then Henry the Eighth came along and got rid of them, but he started his own kind of censorship with licensing laws. They basically said that the state had the opportunity to

censor things before they were even published. So that was one of the earliest forms of straight up book banning or book censorship. Good point, it happened a long time ago. Yeah, so should we get to some landmark cases over the years. Two Board of Education Island Trees School District the Echo. Yeah, that's a mouthful. Um. They said basically that you couldn't remove library material just because like a school official doesn't agree with the ideas. They said that the books on

the on their list were quote just plain filthy. Some people said, now you were going to sue you for that? Well, the Supreme Court said, so basically it has to be pervasively vulgar. I guess that's why they use those words, because that's what they can actually ban a book if who finds it that? Um there, I think society basically well, for for the most part, um as far as books go, for banning a book really tough to do, as once it reaches the Supreme Court, they're gonna be like, no,

it's a book, put it back, it's obscenity. That's not protected at all. Right, Well, because the kicker there is the number three rule that they decided, you know, should be used to determine if something is I guess filthy was it could contain no literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. And that's the one where you know, you can pretty much say claim any book has value like that. That's how we have hardcore pornography. Still, I'm sorry, so you

can say this is art that's true. Um So that that case, um Island Trees case or Pico case, I don't know what they call it. That was a really big deal because it's a place in a school library, and um it basically the Supreme Court said school libraries are special places. Schools are places of inquiry, and so their repository of knowledge, meaning their library, has special protection.

Like we understand that you're worried about the children's minds being corrupted, but you don't get to decide that, Like, this is information that's out there, and as long as it's basically not like hardcore pornography, child pornography, obscenity like it should, it has every right to be in there under the first first Amendment. Amen, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. Uh so was I remember this one because I was on a newspaper staff at

the time and I got interviewed for the news. Oh yeah, yeah, like the local news came out Hazelwood School District v uh kur maya. UM. That was very famously when newspaper high school newspapers basically were said to not have the same rights as like if you were an adult running a newspaper, and it was not a form of public expression, so schools could, uh, in the end, kind of censor what was going in these things, at least in like

school curriculum. I thought it was in the paper. In the paper too, I'm sorry, I thought you meant in these things meaning libraries. Yeah, no, no, in but it was extended into classroom curriculum too like that, which was a big deal. Yeah, as you read that article all

about Texas, Yeah, let's get to that. Yeah, okay, So, um, Texas has this um very controversial textbook review committee that wields a lot of power because textbook or Texas is the biggest textbook buyer in the country, and so if you're a textbook manufacturer and one state is ordering most of your textbooks, you're just gonna print one and send

it to everybody. Yeah, it's basically Texas and California are the two states that wield the most power because they spend the most dough because they have the most school aged kids basically exactly, so they basically say what Texas decides goes in their textbooks goes in the textbooks for a lot of other states as well, not just Texas. Right. Yeah.

I looked at the expense of the textbook, and I think one of the manufacturers said something like several million dollars can go into a like a major biology textbook because of like the illustrations and everything that goes into it. And they're like, we can't make one of these for Texas and one for other states. It's just everyone's gonna

get Texas version of the truth exactly. So Texas has this committee that is largely conservative that um starting and I think two thousand nine, uh, basically held hearings on revisions that they wanted to see done to social studies curriculum. These are elected people too, by the way, which is important because apparently a lot of them can buy their way right on that list. Okay, so social studies, you've

got history, sociology, economics, and UM. A lot of the stuff that they were adding in there were like, um, I guess kind of slanted everything toward a little more towards the idea that the founders of the United States were Christian. UM, that the the they one of the things they wanted to get in there was not just Martin Luther King's non violent civil rights protests, but the

Black Panthers violent civil rights protests were another one. Um. And if you're a conservative, you're you're like, well, okay, I agree with a lot of what these people are saying. The problem is is what they were saying was that there's a liberal slant too academia, and that they were taking it upon themselves to correct that by putting a

conservative slant. Yeah. One of the other amendments was to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures who inspired revolutions of the late eighteenth century in nineteenth century, and they said, let's replace him with Thomas Akenis and John Calvin instead. Another one in economics, UM, they wanted to add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, champions of the free market economic theory, to the list of economist study we talked about, well, Milton Friedman in one where basically

he's Chile as a laboratory for UM reagan Omics. Before Reagan was president to trickle down economics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Um and then and one of the ones that was shot down by a Democrat Mayvice Knight wanted to introduce an amendment requiring students study the reasons for the Founding Fathers protecting religious freedom by not saying one religion is good above all else, and that was actually struck down. They said you can't put that in

this book. Right. She was a Democrat who introduced it. Yeah, there was public The Conservatives said no, well they you know, basically vote along party lines. So the vote was tended four or whatever it is. So it was a big deal, like it had. It was one of those things that kind of went under reported and underestimated. But there's a really good documentary out there that came out and I think two thousand nine, The Revisionaries, UM and I think it's up on Netflix streaming right now. It is Scott

Thurman and uh Al I saw. I was a trailer but it looked pretty good. And I mean it was a big deal. It's not just like some people in Texas want to change some textbooks. It's like has natural implications. It an info war basically, and that's what book banning is based on in a lot of ways as well.

It's like, if you can remove a different viewpoint, especially when when it's being presented to kids, then you can keep that viewpoint from taking from German aating in there and they're emerging mind or worldview, and so books like UM, Daddy's New Roommate gets banned. Yeah, about a boy whose

dad has a new boyfriend. Now he's a divorced dad and his new roommate moves in his gay and UM Sarah Palin herself asked for that to be removed from the library when she was UM the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska. Oh yeah, I remember that. And that guy came out and said that woman is my mortal enemy and thanks for the press. That's what he should have said to UH.

In the meantime, in Texas, UM Mary Helen Burlonga UM has tried repeatedly get Latino figures UM included in textbooks as role models for the large Hispanic population in Texas, and she's been repeatedly denied, to the point where in two thousand ten she stopped out of a meeting saying, they can't just pretend this is white America and that we don't exist. These aren't experts, these aren't historians. They're

just rewriting history. So pretty hard words. Do you want to hear some other challenged authors, Let's man, because there's there's challenges all over the place, apparently Judy Bloom of course, Robert Cormier or Cormier. Uh did you ever read I Am the Cheese when You're growing up? Or The Chocolate War? I think I read that one great books band many times. J. K. Rowling, she is, uh, like I said, she is, I guess of the devil because a lot of people have a

problem with the Harry Potter books. Um, Katherine Patterson Bridge to Tera Bethia, I'm Stephen King, maya Angelou can't have any of that. Yeah. The Alabama State Textbook Committee said that, um, I know why the Cage Bird Sings encourages bitterness towards white people. R. L. Stein who was sort of like a Stephen King for kids, Yeah, goose bumps. Yeah, and uh, I think I actually worked on one of his little TV shows. The Nightmare Room was a nightmare room, I

think so. Uh yeah, back in the day. And John Steinbeck of course, Yeah, in Nine of Mice and Men, was banned in Chattanooga because Steinbeck was well known for his anti business attitude. UM. And then Alvin Schwartz was number one, and he wrote one of my favorite sets of books, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. I never heard of this, oh man. They were scary with the most ghastly illustrations you've ever seen. They're awesome and in those bands just because they're scary and ghoulish. I

guess so I was probably satanic too. Um. So we were talking about how if if a book is challenged, UM, it's probably if it gets to the Supreme Court, Supreme Court is probably gonna rule in favor of the librarian who said no. Um. But that's that's not the case with obscenity, like obscene literature, like it is specifically excluded in US case law from First Amendment protection. And that's kind of emerged over the years, um, starting in eighteen

seventy three with the con Stock laws. It basically said like you can't sell obscene literature in interstate commerce, right, and then people are like, okay, well then we we won't or don't enforce it or whatever, and it just kind of went went enforced or unchallenged for like three quarters of a century, and then in the fifties you had um Roth versus the United States, where all of a sudden, we're like, wait, we need to start explaining

what obscenity is because you can't just say that's just whatever. That's what they started as though, Like in the fifties they basically said obscenity pornography basically is what that means um has utterly or is utterly without um social value. That was a big quote, So that basically was a mark against anybody who's pro obscenity, right, And then in the seventies there was one called Miller versus California, and this guy basically sent out a mass mailer chuck of

an advertisement for his adult magazines. So everybody got him old people, kids, housewives, business meant everybody who went to their mail that they opened it up and like there's like basically obscene advertising. And so California arrested the guy and it went to trial, and the Supreme Court said, okay, um, yes, obscenities not protected, but we need to say what obscenity is, and they came up with this three point test called the Miller tests, which is has that one problem you

were talking about it. Yeah. The third one is no no artistic merit basically literary, political, or scientific value. Which it's probably the terms that they nailed this guy for. Yeah, you know, if it was just a flyer of like pornographic ads, he couldn't really say no, this is literature, Like check these out. The other two were involved patently offensive sexual conducts or appeal to prurient interest when taken

as a whole. There it is, that's what connected a sexuality. Yeah. Um, but the big point with those, Chuck, is that, um, the the prurient interest is local, So basically like if everybody in your town would be offended by this, then that's the local judgment that's for that standard. But then the scientific, artistic, literary standard is national. So like if your town thinks it's science, but your town is notice talking about, that's not a standard. So that's obscenity that substantially.

But the good thing is it's like if you are trying to um ban something as obscene, the burden of proof is on you to prove these three This thing passes all three points of the Miller type. That is true and that's a tough, tough burden to get passed into court to I'm surprised that more book banning fans aren't trying to infiltrate the library community, you know what I'm saying. I think they do constantly. Librarians. Yeah, I don't know. I mean if that's where the power is.

I think the librarians like really um like the library industry. It's it's very powerful and like if they find out that you're you're a wolf and Cheep's clothing, they'll kill you. Boy, have you ever talked to librarians. Chris Pullette here is a librarian. They're really passionate, passionate people. It's it's it's almost like a public service in a way. Yeah, because I'm sure they don't make a lot of dough and they just all really believe in knowledge and protecting, protecting freedoms. Yeah,

it's pretty cool. Yeah, librarians. Yeah. I could give your local librarian a pat on the back today. Yeah, give him a hug. Ask him first and then give him a hug. And if they say no, don't give him a hug, right, just shake their hand and politely not Yeah, maybe a Curtesy and um, that's great chun, I like the curtesy. Al Right, well, if you want to learn more about banned books, we suggest you go to the A l A site. Uh that's I believe a la

dot com. And then you can also write in banned books in the search bar at how stuff works dot com. And it's gonna bring up this, uh, really great article. And I said search bar, which means finally it's time for a listener. Maw josh, you're gonna call this disco fever from Diane in Kentucky. Hey, guys, your disco episode brought back fond memories for me. In the summer of was in my early twenties, and I've just made it from the Sticks to the Pig City, New York City.

It's a big sin. I had very little money. The city's infrastructure was crumbling, and this kind of what we pointed out, you know, the bad economy, and I was separated from my boyfriend by a continent, a bigger obstacle in those days before cell phones and the internet and reasonable air affairs like that was back when a long distance relationship was like serious. Yeah, um remember those days, Like is it long distance? I don't talk too long.

It's long distance. Yeah, now it's like what, Yeah, I forgot about that UM ten, ten to twenty or whatever, like certain times a day were cheaper or something. No, there's like a number you could dial out, like real cheap long distance to remember that. I was questioning the decisions I had made in my life, and it was pretty much a struggle for me. But I had disco.

I would go with a guy friend to a place on Third Avenue that was more or less the equivalent of an Applebee's with disco music and a dance floor complete with disco ball. It certainly wasn't what you would call a disco to or a cool place by any stretch of the imagination. But she was broke and we could order the cheapest thing on the menu and spend the whole night dancing. It was completely oblivious to any social or cultural implications of the music, but just knew

that it was cheap entertainment and so much fun. Yes, the lyrics were silly and the beat was rather unimaginative, but coming off the era of Vietnam, Watergate and a plethora of social upheavals, that was the great part of the appeal. Dancing to disco and laughing at the lyrics was play. It was easy to learn the moves and much for her, not for me. Uh, and much more fun than the mindless dancing um which attended rock music, which I like to listen to. But let's face it,

dancing to rock music it's pretty boring, pretty fast. I don't know if I thought it was the best disco song, but one of the most fun and exhilarating and inanely silly for me was Donna Summers MacArthur Park still brings a smile to my face just thinking about it. I didn't know Donnati was Dick MacArthur Park there. Then that was Diane Rally in Louisville, Kentucky. So glad we could bring back some good memories there for you. Yeah, thanks

a lot, Diane. Awesome. And we've heard from a lot of people who are like, guys, you're saying that, Um, if I hate discodes because I'm homophobic, don't be stupid. No, we didn't say that specifically. We said if you hate disco outright with a burning passion, but for no real reason, you can't really tell why it's getting to you like this,

Maybe it's time step back in examine it. Sure, we also said that there's plenty room for people who just don't like disco, just don't like the music, and it doesn't mean your hope of phobics, So lighten up and listen more clearly, UM, If you want to get in touch with me and Chuck, you can tweet, tweet to us, um to s Y s K podcast. You can also join us on Facebook dot com slash you should Know. You can also read us The Riot Act via via

email at stuff podcast at Discovery dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how Stuff works dot com. MHM brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you